Fly-in, fly-out culture stretching air traffic

[Capn Bloggs]

From the ABC's AM:

Posted October 27, 2011 11:51:38

The fly-in, fly-out mining culture in Western Australia is being blamed for stretching the capacity of air services, with some routes predicted to double in volume in the next few years.

On any given day in Australia's north-west, airline lounges are full of young men in safety gear making their way to and from their east coast homes to Western Australia's mines.

The resources boom is already blamed for the lack of community spirit in many towns, but now Air Services Australia, which provides air traffic controllers to airports, says it is almost at capacity dealing with the sheer volume of flights.

It says some routes are predicted to double in volume in the next few years.

Air Services Australia chief executive Greg Russell says the explosion of fly-in, fly-out traffic between Perth and the state's north-west is already straining air traffic control systems.

He is calling for mining companies to more evenly spread out their rosters to help deal with the traffic spike on certain days.

"With respect to Perth Airport, the operations there in the mornings on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays are all built around the practices of the mining and resource companies," he said.

"What we're asking them to do is if possible can they help us spread that peak by changing some of the start times for their rosters."

"Overnight at Perth Airport at the moment there are 90 aeroplanes that are based and most of them want to leave in that first 90 minutes of the operational morning.

"It's creating, at the moment, long delays."

Mr Russell says the airport should be able to handle the demand if rostering spreads the peak onto more days.

"We're asking [miners] to have a look at this issue because it's creating such a peak in demand in the mornings that can be avoided and long congestion," he said.

"I don't think that's in anyone's interest in terms of the passengers on board the aircraft or in fact the mining and resource companies, or for that matter the airline industry and the charter operators."

Mr Russell says a change in rostering will not only help out Perth airport but all other flights flying into Western Australia's north-west.

"Smoothing that will help us manage the overall air traffic system in Western Australia," he said.

Mr Russell is also calling on airline operators to invest in new technology.

"We need to encourage more of the operators to equip their aircraft with satellite-based equipment, called ADSB," he said.

He says the equipment would allow traffic controllers to see aircraft much more precisely and be able to to handle a rise in air-travel demand.

It's a pity that Greg didn't mention the waste of fuel used in ground and air holding as one of the jusitfications for a re-schedule of mining rosters.

I'm not sure how ADSB would make a big difference to the current situation...

[neville_nobody]

So ATC want the mines to rewrite rosters just to suit them and account for their lack of service delivery. Maybe we should get a decent ATC system/rules/airports. Maybe that might help the issue. And it's not like they haven't seen this coming. WA air traffic growth has been predicted for years, yet noone in power wants to change anything.

Meanwhile Gatwick airport moved double the airport movements of Perth with one runway. Places like Van Nuys, Boston which have old airport setup with close runways etc managed to move 2-3 times the traffic of Perth.

Maybe Greg should own the problem and start solving our aviation infrastructure problems rather then getting on the ABC and telling his customers that they have to change their travel plans that they pay for because his systems aren't good enough.

[jas24zzk]

Just another case of the boringocrats blame shifting

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Baxter Dewall]

Bloggs said;


I'm not sure how ADSB would make a big difference to the current situation...


Quite alot actually. Radar separation standards are NOWHERE near as prohibitive as Procedural/Non-Radar standards. So in effect you could have 3 times the volume of traffic on a designated route AT THE SAME LEVEL within @ 30 miles of each other, than we currently have. Feeder fix management can be coordinated from departure 800nm from Perth and sequenced much more efficiently.

Requests in Flight Level change could be instantaneous as opposed to waiting for what seems like ages; crossing a/c could be instantaneously separated without the need to coordinate through next sector etc etc. Need I go on.

It would make an enormous difference.

[Keg]

Meanwhile Gatwick airport moved double the airport movements of Perth with one runway.

The difference is that when aircraft leave Gatwick they're heading to the four points of the compass. When aircraft leave Perth they're generally heading in one. I suspect that it's not runway capacity that is the issue but airspace capacity.

[Jack Ranga]

1. It's about the runways stupid.

2. It's about ADSB ground stations placed to ensure full coverage to these fly-in, fly-out sites.

3. It's about an investment in infrastructure that benefits all but is paid for by a few.

4. It's about a mining tax that will go into consolidated revenue to be blown on burning peoples houses down etc rather than building another runway in Perth or siting ADSB stations.

5. It's about buck passing, bitching and moaning about whos' responsibilty it all is, meanwhile Aisle 3 gets on with it (and you should see what they get on with, most of us are too scared to even walk past that aisle :})

[Gunnadothat]

So, essentially what Greg Russell wants to do is to shift the blame of inadequate planning and expenditure on infrastructure onto the mining companies chartering the aircraft...... Spare me the tears!

FIFO is nothing new... The signs have been there since the late 1980s, and more so in the past ten years.....Why has it taken this long for the penny to drop over there in the oxygen depleted upper echelons of Airservices, and for more pennies to drop from the pockets of WAC and the WA Government?

I would have thought ADSB would have been widespread on the old Perth Sectors by now...God knows they've needed it for a bloody long time. I've only been out of the industry for 12 years and they were talking about implementation pathways then... Why so long to give the controllers and the pilots the tools they need?

Why should mining companies be at fault here? Essentially, any company who changes from a Tuesday or Wednesday morning shift change over is putting themselves at a competitive disadvantage compared to their peers.

<edit>
Making the start times later on the Initial shift won't work, as the first day is generally the handover day between shifts - to give you some idea for a large open pit, think WARRP occurring once a week, and you get some feel on the changes on some pit layouts that need to communicated. The large complex nickel or gold plants aren't any better. The entire shift is generally spent getting up to speed on what has happened in the previous swing and planning for the week ahead, before the previous guy gets on the plane and flies off for R&R.
<end edit>

The race between the mining companies has always been to employ the best people onsite, and changing to a Monday or Friday would be HR suicide for those companies. They are deadly serious about keeping their workers happy and on the payroll at present - those that aren't get their people poached.

By the sounds of it, Greg Russell could take a leaf out of the mining companies books on how to retain people instead of losing them to ANSPs around the world. By the threads seen here and elsewhere, it doesn't sound as if Airservices has been an employer of choice for a while.

[neville_nobody]

The difference is that when aircraft leave Gatwick they're heading to the four points of the compass. When aircraft leave Perth they're generally heading in one. I suspect that it's not runway capacity that is the issue but airspace capacity.

Yeah I don't doubt that Perth ATC and airport have its problems, but it's about owning the problem and providing a solution. Australia needs to solve it's aviation infrastructure problems and it has to come from people at the top. If he needs new rules he should get onto it. If he needs bigger airports he needs to sort it out. That what a CEO does. If you get hamstrung by the government or private airport owners you need to put the heat on them.

I can't think of to many industry leaders who would go onto the ABC and say that his customers need to change their entire business setup (which is what a roster rewrite would mean) because we can't be bother to fix our systems or attempt to do anything about it.

Another example of why we need an Australian Aviation Lobby or political party.

[Ultralights]

so, let me get this straight, there will be more flights from Perth to the mining sites than there is currently between Sydney and Melbourne.. following the logic that the flights will be going the same direction. and because of this, and lack of infrastructure/staff/investment from Airservices, its all the mining companies fault?

[aveng]

rather than building another runway in Perth

The original expansion plan for Perth airport went out the window when WAC took over. To make a parallel runway where it was orginally intended you would have to bulldoze the Coles and Woolworth's distribution centres (and others). NOT GOING TO HAPPEN - WAC loves the rent money!:ugh:

[Gunnadothat]

Got it in one, ultralights.... Except for the difference that Mr. Russell is saying it without the question mark at the end, and from the last paragraph in the media blurb that some of the blame is on the aircraft operators for not equipping some of the aircraft accordingly. :}

[Old Akro]

And lets not forget that AsA get increased revenue from the increased traffic. They are not without additional resource to do something.

[gobbledock]

And Mr Russell's claim to fame? A government bureaucrat and that is about it. Here is a novel approach. Make the fc#king mining giants pay for it! You got it, the additional airspace management, towers, controllers, technology, ground infrastructure, extensions to sh#t airports like Perth. They (the mining companies) are the ones raping our Australian earth, flogging our assets overseas and paying a minimum cost for the priveledge. Make Gina, Big Clive and any other mining comglomerate fund the lot.
But no, our bureaucrats will dither, they will tax the mining companies disproportionately (not enough) and either make the fuc#king taxpayer kick the tin or simply piss away the mining royalties like they have done for years. They will bend over and grab their ankles for big business as usual. Government is good at extracting money but useles at re-investing it. And the current government made up of inept nupties couldn't manage the sale of pink cupcakes at a church fundrasier let alone have the balls to make the responsible big businesses pay for the infrastructure.

But don't hold your breath, Russell will go public yet again, quoting some bureaucratic wankery like: 'We have employed an extra 2.38 controllers in the western corridor, and 'we have implemented some robust systems to counteract the negative effects of the rapid growth', and 'we are consulting with industry and the affected regions to seek a robust solution', yada yada yada. Spin spin spin.
What is this blokes solution, well he says 'please Mr Mining Company, adjust your rosters'! How funny is that ****e, and he gets paid how much of our taxpayer money per year??
Imagine the look on these bureaucrats faces in let's say 2 years time when they wake up from their afternoon slumber (that was induced by another pig out from the overflowing trough) and they realize that Queensland and selected corridor's around its SE, north and west are becoming overcrowded and under resourced infrastructure wise due to mining growth?

[sunnySA]

"Smoothing that will help us manage the overall air traffic system in Western Australia,"

I think this is common-sense, any new contracts should use be "encouraged" to use Friday to Monday for their FIFO days.

Although outside the current funding model, use a small % of the mining taxes to pay for the necessary infrastructure, more ADSB and/or radar sites.

you know it makes sense...

[Geoff Fairless]

While Perth has been the leading airport in this current capacity crisis there is an infrastructure problem. For whatever reasons Federal Governments have decided that Airports, airspace and airlines can operate independently of each other and that market forces will keep them aligned. This is not happening.

For reasons everyone will recognise the three have been tasked with making money for their shareholders (it's the law) while not being able to control the assets they need to control to make their businesses efficient.

The infrastructure distortions that this creates cannot be fixed by CEOs working independently, only by governments creating policy that the CEOs can then work with. At present my opinion is that they have an impossible task.

Imagine a railway system where the stations, the tracks and the trains are all owned by separate corporations and you have the Australian aviation scene.

The station owner cannot build another platform (runway) without consulting with the train owners. The train owners that run the mainline trains do not want to fund a platform that they will rarely use because the Government has allowed everyone and their dog to compete with them cutting their margins to the bone. They are happy with the number of platforms that are already built and in fact have a long term plan with the station owners to increase the number of platforms as capacity rises.

However a group of small train owners want to depart between 7:00 and 7:30 am to meet contracts they signed without any conversations about whether there was an available platform at that time of the morning. Naturally those contracts did not contain clauses about building new platforms, the train owner who did was undercut by those that did not!

Meanwhile the track owner has rules imposed by Government about how the platforms owned by the stations must be utilised which allows the small train owners to occupy platforms built with taxpayers money but leased to the station owners. This is a major problem for the track owner which is exacerbated by the fact that the track owner must also build multiple track loops between the two small stations where the trains can wait until a platform becomes available. (The track owner did ask the rail regulator if they would get all the small train operators to fit as new-fangled device that would allow more trains to use the available tracks, but the rail regulator declined because it would put all of the small train owners out of business. They did however tell all the big train owners that they must fit the new-fangled device, however made it impossible for the track owner to use amongst the small trains)

Naturally all of this is the fault of the track owner?? Give me a break....

[ferris]

Absolutely, Mr. Fairless.

It is a failure of GOVERNMENT.
- they have failed to direct AsA to provide proper resourcing, and would rather that entity provides cash. It's bosses do what they are tasked with.
- they fail to apply the revenues obtained from mining appropriately (already mentioned and done to death- EVERYBODY knows it)
- they fail to make policy (in general) that serves the long term interest of Australians with regard to mining

As far as the thread topic; AsA has been cost-shifting for ages. It's nothing new, it just takes the odd new form. See the point above about effective direction.

[ga_trojan]

Here's the ABC report in full.

AM - Mining fly-in, fly-out culture strains air traffic control 27/10/2011 (http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3349026.htm)

[Capn Bloggs]

Baxter, re ADSB:

- the last thing the system ie the runway that gets landed-on, needs is three times the enroute traffic.

- Feeder Fix times may be more "efficient", but given that an aircraft lands at Perth every 2 minutes for 2 hours in peak times, generally after holding, how those aeroplanes get to the FF is irrelevant. ADSB will not make a big change here, apart from perhaps enabling slowups earlier on in the flight, saving a bit of fuel (although the Flow is issuing FF times quite early, eg in the climb, on some occasions).

- I wholeheartedly agree that ADSB will improve fuel efficiency with better level assignments and improve safety reduced radio chatter/congestion; roll on 2013.

[psycho joe]

I'm sorry, I just can't believe any of this unless it's come directly from Geoffrey Thomas.

[Icarus2001]

I am no fan of WAC but...The original expansion plan for Perth airport went out the window when WAC took over. To make a parallel runway where it was orginally intended you would have to bulldoze the Coles and Woolworth's distribution centres (and others). is not quite correct. A large area of land has been left for a "short" runway parallel to 21/03. At present it is sealed with cars on it but no buildings as yet.

The difference is that when aircraft leave Gatwick they're heading to the four points of the compass. When aircraft leave Perth they're generally heading in one. I suspect that it's not runway capacity that is the issue but airspace capacity. This is simply not true. Aircraft leave Perth to track out through an arc of about 200 degrees. I think Gatwick would also have about four main departure tracks.

Part of the issue is that 24 is not used for departures in a morning due to noise abatement. So a perfectly useable runway is left mostly idle during the morning departures because a couple of suburbs (South Perth, Como?) might hear an aeroplane.

The fix is turn Pearce into a multi user facility the same as Darwin and Townsville and extend the Midland rail line through Ellenbrook to Pearce. It will never happen.

How far along is Terminal WA now?

[Wally Mk2]

The crux of the story is that Mr 'AsA' wants the mining Co's to change their rosters start time/s to accommodate a poor ATC system? That's the stupid side of this argument making people change their lives for the very reason we have ATC in the first place, for the people to move about this great land of ours!!!!. We have overcrowded trains these days would getting everybody to change their start times at the office fix that?:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Well at least such dumb statements as this report shows keeps us PPruners out of the air making it even worse!:E

Wmk2

[gobbledock]

We have overcrowded trains these days would getting everybody to change their start times at the office fix that?:ugh::ugh::ugh: Anna Bligh of Queensland fame suggested those living in SEQ have school hours changed, changed business hours start/stop times and where possible 'work from home' due to the complete farce that the road network has turned in to.
So there you have yet another bureaucrat suggesting ludicrous unworkable measures (and it is a cheap alternative as she doesn't have to spend any of our taxpayer money on infrastructure) to cope with service difficulties. What a joke, what the fu#k has Aus government turned into?? We pay these assclowns to make these sort of weak strategies? Fools.

[ozineurope]

A little history here.

Back in about 1999 local Perth ATC approached the then Ansett WA in an effort to have them modify their scheduled 6am departures to better spread the load. At that time the 6 F28s all mixed it with the east coast jets, other intra state flights - I think it was about 45 scheduled departures in the first 75 minutes of the morning. This came after Capt Australian Airlines complained about a 45 minute wait at 0600.

Working locally AWA and Perth ATC managed to move 4 of the F28s to 0530 to 0555 departures thus alleviating the problem in a small way. Perth ATC were crticised by the coporate section becasue we did not go through their channels - Ansett melbourne - to have this done.

My point is the solution is achievable but there needs to be the will and cooperation of all the parties to reach a solution. Unfortunately I think the current ASA structure is so out of touch with the realities that this cooperation will never be achieved.

Local controllers have been saying for a long time that infrastructure was needed - a radar at MSN was even suggested in 1997 to solve the coverage problems. Too much dosh to spend for the West coast where there is no aviation!! For too long Perth controllers have beaten their heads against the east coast centric mindset to achieve little.

And again we see the east coast centric solution - blame someone else because we were too short sighted or pig headed to listen to people who had a real feel for what was going on. What the hell would local boggie controllers know about strategic air traffic management?

Negotiations and solutions rarely involve the coal face, cant let those unwashed controllers talk directly to the airlines - egad! Must be done through a strata of red tape and corporate relations by people whno have little connection with aviation and even less with experience with real time ATM.

Soap box, megaphone, out the door.

[missy]

Airports, airspace and airlines can operate independently of each other and that market forces will keep them aligned. This is not happening.

Yep, not only in Perth.

The fix is turn Pearce into a multi user facility the same as Darwin and Townsville and extend the Midland rail line through Ellenbrook to Pearce.

Nice option.

Another option might be hubbing from the eastern states through ADL and/or ASP. MEL/SYD > AD > WA, SYD/BNE > AS > WA. Opens another market for labour and the transit times, in many cases, would be less.

There is no doubt that infrastructure has lagged well behind what is required, so my read is that ASA are saying "let's work together to have a manageable option (as the current system is unsustainable)".

[ozbiggles]

Please stop saying turn Pearce into a common user airport.
The laughter is beginning to make me hurt.
Do a little research on the number of movements there in a normal day let alone having 5 a/c in the cct at anyone time doing guess what, cct training, all operating VFR.
Exactly how are you going to fit IFR RPT/fifo into that mix during daylight hours?

[Capn Bloggs]

The crux of the story is that Mr 'AsA' wants the mining Co's to change their rosters start time/s to accommodate a poor ATC system? That's the stupid side of this argument making people change their lives for the very reason we have ATC in the first place, for the people to move about this great land of ours!!!!. We have overcrowded trains these days would getting everybody to change their start times at the office fix that
Yes, it would actually. What do you suggest ATC do to fix this problem then?

[Sequencer]

Part of the issue is that 24 is not used for departures

How would this help? TCU and ENR struggle with the current departure rate. More staff and some different sectorisation first please.

Please stop saying turn Pearce into a common user airport

Agree, PEA is not the answer just a tad too busy at times, well most of the time actually.

Aircraft leave Perth to track out through an arc of about 200 degrees

Maybe nearly true but not many mine sites to the south - south east, so in effect most departures are through about 90 degrees.

Meanwhile Gatwick airport moved double the airport movements of Perth with one runway

All jets, doing the same speed, at the same levels, high speed exits (which don't help departures much) and pilots that don't f*#k around getting on and off runways. And after all that the peak hours are no where near double!!



ASA CEO and PAPL (formerly WAC) may be reacting late, very late, but the concept of smoothing is being received well by mining companies and airlines. Implementation well that's another battle. No long term fix but it helps all and at least finally the problem is recognised.

[Sequencer]

How far along is Terminal WA now?

Its happening, foundations etc going in...

Tarmac is bizjet heaven at the moment, every African tinpot despot seems to have one :)

[Transition Layer]

Heard the other day that a radar site will go in at Paraburdoo, (probably about the same time ADSB becomes mandatory!). At least something is being done I guess.

I guess this will help the inbound flow further out, but what about arrivals and departures from all the airports up that way? Will we see Class C or E airspace down to lower levels?

[ReadMyACARS]

Greg Russell has provided a solution, ADSB, which has been pointed out above will allow more aircraft into the airspace. Asking the mining companies for help though is pretty much a waste of time, I can't think of many, well any, who employ decision makers in their supply and logistics departments who would have a vague understanding of the issues. We buy planes by the hour based on shifting so many people, so many times a week, "How much is it going to cost?" From our (miners) perspective, it is a long way to work and we need to get people there as early as we can. BUT, given how much time we spend in the terminal waiting for taxi slot times and are late anyway, it seems foolish not to move to a later time, 45 mins would do it. And yes, Fridays to Mondays is possible and we (the staff) would welcome it. Okay, sometimes, I suspect many would not.

WA has sufficient coverage of ADSB receivers see this link (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/projects/ads-b/ads-b-coverage/) both Hedland and Karratha are well covered; out here near Leonora/Laverton we have coverage over about 10 airports down to 2000' or less. So controllers have the tools they need to see do their side of the deal.

A new runway is still possible and is still part of the long term plan, one of the considerations is the cost of runway vs how many planes we can get into the air with ADSB across the state. I suspect a shorter 2000 metre parellel strip might still win. High speed turn offs would also make a difference, but we do not seem to be making much head way on either. However runways and taxiways are not part of Airservices responsibility; who could forget the stunning achievments of airport privatisation!

I could go on but what no one has mentioned in amongst the government hating, burearucracy hating and other mindless rubbish, is that the reason we don't have better ADSB use, is that none, not one, of the charter companies in Perth has spent one cent on equipping their aircraft with ADSB gear. Certainly some companies have ADSB equipped aircraft, but only because that is how they were delivered. If the charter companies, who sell planes by the hour, not the seat, are feeling hard done by maybe they could make a small contribution to the system. From ATC's perspective thay have invested in the system, but the charter companies are really dragging the chain on their part of the deal. I might also add that of the aircraft that do have ADSB, none of them operate within any sort of tolerance, if you have a look on Flightradar24 or Planefinder and see where the charter aircraft land and take off from you'll be amused. More than one has 'landed' on Horrie Miller Drive (and hangers, terminals, slightly off taxiways etc) due to a lack of accuracy in the ADSB source. So how about the charter companies a) investing in ADSB sooner rather than wait for a deadline and b) talking to some of their customers to look at rescheduling, sometimes 10 - 15 mins would make a difference.

[kimberleyEx]

ReadMyACARS.

Skywest and Alliance both have active programs for ADS-B equippage on their F100 fleets. In the case of XR I believe they already have a a/c fitted with GNSS recievers for ADS-B.

Same for Alliance with their F70 and F100. Of which the first a/c flew with ADS-B equipment (GNSS) yesterday.

Cheers.

K-Ex.

[ferris]

Greg Russell has provided a solution, ADSB, A solution? Read the frickin thread! Especially Fairless' post. Then you might get more of a grip on things. ADSB doesn't help much if you don't have the controllers to work it, the runways to land on and the receivers to receive it etc. etc. etc.amongst the government hating, burearucracy hating and other mindless rubbish, is that the reason we don't have better ADSB use, is that none, not one, of the charter companies in Perth has spent one cent on equipping their aircraft with ADSB gear. Why do you think that is? Why would an aircraft owner spend money WHEN THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN IT FOR HIM. This is where policy comes in- hence the govt 'hating' posts. Policy is required that provides some incentive for efficiency- either financial penalties/incentives, or otherwise. The bureaucrats, like Russell, do what they are told by the govt. If the aviation minister had half a clue, and directed AsA to adequately staff, rather than just return a max dividend, then I'm sure he would. If the govt took some of the mining windfall, and used it provide infrastructure to support the industry (which might include buying the airport and building runways instead of warehouses etc- what an amazing thought- essential infrastructure being used for purpose!!!). Yes, policy might be used to help the mining company bean counters influence things- such as, say, increasing the airport/airways charges during certain times, but hoping for altruism on the part of aircraft owners by fitting ADSB IS moronic (especially when it doesn't solve the problem).

[Capn Bloggs]

Heard the other day that a radar site will go in at Paraburdoo
Now that would be a WOFTAM. All the jets will have ADS-B in a couple of years; stick an ADS-B tower on the hill next to PBO and it will achieve the same thing but be a few mill cheaper. :ok:

[mikk_13]

You can push tin OS because you don't have lawyers coming up with wank procedures like separation assurance and the 2 minute stand down for missing an irrelevant read back.

The major problem is that there are too many smart people who have never worked outside ASA enforcing worlds best practice. If the just pissed them all of and let air traffic controllers do what they need to do to push the traffic through you could increase the amount.

Where i work, there is no official investigation unless you have less than 5 miles. So this means when coordination is dropped no one cares, when pilot doesn't read back a clearance for weather diversion and it is irrelevant anyway, you won't have an ALM stand you down because it is appreciated if you believe that the readback was important to you, you will chase it. Separation insurance is an Air Traffic Controller.

For example- here- You climb him, if it doesn't work, you turn him. In australia if you climb him, if there is a possibility it does not work (even if it absolutely ridiculous) , you are stood down. So nobody will climb him.

Here is another example

I had 2 opposite in non radar airspace. the high one has icing and need decent. There is no way to take him down as the lower one is blocking. It will take 10minutes until they will pass. I should have been able to give the aircraft a traffic statement and information on the situation to allow for the decent for the high traffic. However, I would have been stood down. So is this case I had to descend the low aircraft out side controller airspace to FL180, 6000'. Then the high aircraft descended to FL150. And they passed each other without the separation standard outside controlled airspace Only 6000' lower and in closer proximity than it would have been if I could have used my judgment and commonsense. So I can't use my skill and judgment, or commonsense to do what I need to do. I have to follow these irrational rules without exemption.

I guess the DFS is thankful to tfn for the good work.

[RATpin]

If only the term, "Service Provider" was taken seriously by both the Government and the so called "Public Service".(Department Heads).Unfortunately,unless there is a joint public media campaign by industry(Aviation and other vested interests),the ludicrous curfews and resource limitations for ATC will continue.
IMO,if the Industries effected came together and advertised the true cost to the Australian public of curfews/airspace limitations etc,the Government would have a difficult time justifying themselves in these areas.
I have consulted extensively with the fairies at the bottom of my garden and they agree.

[Ejector]

Air Services Australia

I think they should learn some service form the Yanks. I am not blaming the guys in the towers, but their bosses really should be sent to a Bali Prison.:=

[The Baron]

ADSB is a no brainer, but, can someone explain to me why every capital city has a large chunk of it's available airspace made unavailable or restricted by large military airfields. Why, for example can't Pearce flying be moved a 100 miles further west, or Richmond moved to Wagga? Amberley moved to Roma? The public service only operate a handful of aircraft and mostly fly Mon-Fri 9 to 5. In smarter countries like the USA, these guys are out in the deserts.

[ozbiggles]

Baron, why don't you go fly and live in those areas?

[The Baron]

I loved the rural areas when I lived there and will move back again. So you're saying that people are only prepared to be in the forces if they live within a few miles of the CBD and a barista bar? Princesses and concrete spring to mind...

[ozbiggles]

While I have time I'll answer some of your points.
1. Move Pearce flying 100nm out west. Takes to much time in a PC9 to do that and who wants to eject that far out to sea. You may have heard about the odd shark out there?
2. Moving bases. Are you going to pay for that? To save a few minutes getting to a airport?
3. Handful of aircraft operating 9-5. Then whats your problem if they only take up the airspace for 8 hours? Like me saying RPT pilots eat only first class meals and do one sector a day and get paid more than a company CEO. Comments like that just make you look arrogant.
By all means have a discussion but don't sound like a tosser when you are doing it!

[YPJT]

Paraburdoo is definitely looking at a radar site within the next 12 months.

A lot of mine sites are doing feasability to upgrade runways to allow direct ops to eastern states capitals. I doubt that will be happening any time soon though.

[Eddie Bauer]

There was a plan out there by Rio to shut down Para and build a new airport about 18km north of Tom price that could handle direct 737 flights from the east coast, however that got shelved due to GFC.
The covers remain firmly on top of that at present.
Unfortunately, I doubt very much whether many FIFO ops would go the a fri-sun change as the companies realize that for those on a shorter work cycle, the weekend at home is important to attracting and retaining a good workforce.
For those on a longer cycle (2weeks on/off) like I work, it's not so much of an issue but my fly day works out in on Monday, out on tues, so kind of on the shoulder and flights to Perth are generally during the mid morn/mid arvo slots.
I do think the idea of east coast direct to NW or via Alice is a good idea, but it would involve a great deal of goodwill and cooperation between the 3 major miners plus a host of juniors to make the pax loads sustainable, all of which seems improbable considering that they are in competition with each other in the recruitment of employees and keep hold of any operational advantage that they can pass of as a possible benefit to their staff.
Definitely an issue that needs all of the stakeholders to sit down together though.
I do wonder though if maybe a way around some of the issues might be to look at moving some of the charter and GA type work to somewhere like northam ( or somewhere in an arc about 1-1.5 hours out of Perth) on an upgraded strip and build a dedicated high speed light rail link that can service it direct from Perth airport, with a secure parking setup built just for those people with one cheap weekly rate.
I might be dreaming but isn't that where all forward visionary planning stems from?

[Xcel]

If the airport congestion gets to bad then they will just bypass it. If you can't spend the dollars wisely with the high traffic movements what will you do with no traffic? Operators and clients alike are doing something now. They aren't going to change their times. Just change their hub and bypass your mess. Lost revenue for the airport and then nothing will get fixed because they can't afford it.

F70's crossing the country. Using different hubs - Alice, Adelaide etc. Upgrading mine strips. ADSB. The clients and operators are finding their solution to your problem. Just don't go there!

[ReadMyACARS]

kimberleyEx

I am glad to be wrong. GNSS will be a much better and more accrate tool than the IRS sets they were using previously.

I said originally that Greg Russell had offered a solution. That was only half correct, the other half of the equation is access to a WAAS, or a GBAS. So far ASA have spent I think it was $30 million on a GBAS which was abandoned. In order to maximise to opportunities that GPS and associated tools such as ADSB offer, the second half of the problem needs to be tackled. The survey industry has had access to centimetre accurate GPS for some years, why have we made no progess in aviation?

I nominate Geoscience Australia to do it as this should be a national scheme not one owned by any specific industry.

Thanks everyone, you can go back to Qantas hating now.

Cheers

RMA

[Baileys]

Qantas hating is a deserved sport right now - current events will effects all Australians in the industry - negatively.

[Xcel]

Eddie, there are coordinated flights by strategic at present into curtain from Perth. No reason it couldn't be done via east coast port or hub bed in Alice... So it isn't all a pipe dream.

[kimberleyEx]

Hi ReadmyAcars.

No probs about the ADS-B. I just wanted to point out operators are equipping for it. Just a time consuming project with some types.

Although now the mandate date from the white paper (don't quote me but Jan 2013) is approaching...

You have a very valid point with WAAS and GBAS. Although I didn't think GBAS has been abandoned. GRAS was though.

Why has it taken so long for GBAS rollout. A curved ILS (GBAS) type approach at YPPH would be handy for RWY03 off the Julim arrival!

K-Ex.

[westausatc]

I worked the radar sectors around PH for about three and a half years so I have some idea of what happens with all this.

It pains me to say it but Greg has a point. If 40 aircraft all want to depart from the one runway within 5 minutes, there's going to be a problem with delays at any airport you want to look at. Then, when there's 20 aircraft wanting to land on the one runway within a 5 minutes period (based on profile speeds), you're going to have the same problem. If you spread the FIFO flights out, you won't end up with the delays. It really is that simple. And it's not AsA's fault that this is the end result. They have no ability to improve any of the things that would help move 40 aircraft in 5 minutes. They simply provide the best service they can with the tools that they have.

The base cause of all the delays is not getting optimal use of tarmac on the ground. Put in a parallel (should be able to take at least B463/RJ if not B712) and make more use of 06/24. With these two things, the movement rate could very well double. Simple. That means, however, getting the people under final for R06 to quit whinging about noise and given how things are for AsA at the moment with the noise from WARRP, I imagine things would get very interesting with that. It also means WAC need to forego commercial ventures and use the airport for it's intended use - to move aircraft! Good luck with both of those things.

I have said it before - airspace is not the issue. On departure, the only weak link in the chain is from approach to enroute - approach are happy to run 5 miles between departures which is going to be refused by enroute everyday of the week. I was happy to have 7-ish with opening but the procedure says 10nm, no closing and when tower can launch them to give approach 3nm on departure, that means a bit of speed control to get the 10nm approach need for handover. The non-radar guys don't cause delays - they catch everything sent to them and just use levels to sort out any conflicts with the odd reroute to fix a real dilly of a pickle. If all the charter guys were to have adsb, the only improvement here would be that people would get their planned levels almost all the time.

On arrival, adsb would only help if PH TCU were to get the adsb feed. When I left 15-ish months ago, they had no feed and were not going to get it ever with the current platform (TAAATS). So adsb fit out for the charter fleet is not going to help with delays by itself. If the flow does get the adsb feed and the stations are at the right location (probably Meeka and Leonora close in), then the flow can do his thing from top of climb and help absorb delays in the cruise. In this case, if everyone sticks to their slot time, it will probably get rid of holding entirely. However, there is still only so much this can achieve. If those ridiculous days still occur when 40 aircraft all want to land in the one thirty minute block, there is going to be holding.

[Jack Ranga]

I think they should learn some service form the Yanks.

The yanks operate under waaaaayyyyy different liabilities than we do.

We would gladly operate under their conditions.

Read Mikks post again all of you, that is the way it is :ugh:

[neville_nobody]

You have to wonder what is being smoked over at the Perth Airport Corp. as they publicly state that air traffic is going to double in the next 10 years and they still don't need a new runway. PER is going to be at permanent gridlock if that happens.

Yet another example of why you don't privatise public infrastructure.

[bankrunner]

It's not about air traffic for the airport owners, it's about foot traffic through the shops in the terminal :ok:

[Roger Standby]

I've only just started working Perth arrivals and there's certainly not 10nm between deps to enroute (and neither should there be). Pretty sure flow gets the ADSB feed these days, too. Could be wrong.

I also heard that one of the big mining bosses offered to bring his earth moving equipment into Perth from one of his sites and build a new runway at his cost, in a matter of weeks. Airport owners decided a DFO was better.:ugh:

[neville_nobody]

I also heard that one of the big mining bosses offered to bring his earth moving equipment into Perth from one of his sites and build a new runway at his cost, in a matter of weeks

That's a pretty awesome conspiracy theory if true.

[rh200]

I still think part of the problem is rosters. The industry has several standard rosters, 2 &1 (2 weeks on 1 week off) being one of them, 8 & 6 ( 8 days on 6 off),being another, and there's some worse ones. they all revolve around having ~ 1 week at home, and thats the crux of the matter. People if going to be at home want a weekend with the family (hence so called family friendly 8 & 6) but don't want to be getting over shift changes or travel on weekends.

A 2 & 2 (weeks) roster like the oil industry, Argyle etc would give companys more chance of convincing workers to fly at more convenient times. Not sure of the economics of 2 &2 versus the 8 & 6 though. One would think a smart airline company could offer significant cost savings if they could convince the miner to fly "off peak".

[neville_nobody]

rh200 the issue is the airport. Mining companies should not have to change anything because the airport can't get its act together. If everyone wants to leave at 0500 on a Monday morning so be it. The customer is always right. Perth airport are the ones who need to pull their finger out and build a new runway. They can complain all they want they are running an airport and it should be operated as such. NO OTHER INDUSTRY would tolerate such ridiculous BS.

If the mines were smart they'd consider building their own private airport for FIFO somewhere and put a bit of heat on YPPH.

[rh200]

Doesn't also come down to utilisation, do you build the infrastructure and buy the planes to to run a surge at a particular time, whilst 90% of the time the capacity is under utilised?

Your right, the customer is always right, but sometimes a bit of the old out of the box thinking is good.

[airdualbleedfault]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned but when you have one controller firing a/c off with traffic on a 4 mile final and yet another making you wait when traffic on 5 mile final, I don't believe Perth is operating at its capacity ( nor are some controllers ), certainly not compared to some airports in Asia, Hong Kong for example. Yes HKG has parallel runways but that does not mean a/c can take off and land simultaneously ( due to possibility of overshoots, and where they are routed ).
HKG also has a plethora of ridiculous airspace constraints put upon it by numerous Chinese airports nearby and china airspace in general, with this in mind they still handle up to 60 movements an hour ( predicted to go to nearly 70 within 3 years ). Another good one is holding, or reducing to ridiculous speeds to then be told to increase speed significantly, or arriving into PH airspace to find all you can hear is crickets, no, it is not rare.

Putting the flak jacket on here but is it at all possible that with ATC being a government job, there is no incentive to get creative or make work a bit harder for themselves by managing more movements ?

[le Pingouin]

airdualbleedfault, the aircraft on final is not the only restriction for departing aircraft.

Sequences get changed, for instance because an aircraft didn't meet it's stack departure time. You depart 30 seconds early & they depart 90 seconds late & you've got dead heat at the threshold. Who are we going to pick to try & fix this? The guy we think will win. So of course he gets maxxed up to try to reduce the bloody great gap in the sequence.

Be creative? Can you be creative with operating procedures on the flight deck? Fine until somebody f@#ks up & then it's crucifixion.

Movement caps aren't decided by operational controllers. We just get to work within those constraints.

[Baileys]

What Aussie ATC's & ASA Managers think is busy may not be busy for those experienced internationally. Comparing Perth ATC to Hong Kong ATC may not be realistic.

Having said that Aussie ATC's are constrained by some ridiculously pedantic (an*l) "rules". They have to spend a lot of mental effort covering their bums instead of working traffic. But I guess that is what ASA Management think is "World's Best Practice" or whatever lame cliche they are throwing around these days.

[Sequencer]

traffic on a 4 mile final and yet another making you wait when traffic on 5 mile final

Maybe because one pilot will be doing 120 kts at 4nm and another 180 kts in the same aircraft type. Then there is the difference between pilots/aircraft lining and actually getting moving, always trust a QFA B767 but never a VOZ A330 (although they are getting better) or a SK SW4. :ugh:

still handle up to 60 movements an hour

Parallel runways?? That's not great and they are all jets with very similar performance. PH will do 40ish an hour, arrival & departures, single runway and all sorts of performance. One PH ATC ex HK reckons it was a doddle compared to PH these days, sausage factory...

plethora of ridiculous airspace constraints

You reckon PH basin airspace is simple, with PEA & JT??

ATC being a government job

Far less in Australia than HK..

If everyone wants to leave at 0500 on a Monday morning so be it.

Very short sighted, it is still limited to concrete on the ground.

[RATpin]

I believe your spot on Nev N.
I dream of a time that "service provider" means more than just PR hype.

[airdualbleedfault]

Be creative? Can you be creative with operating procedures on the flight deck

Ok, wrong choice of words. There are pilots that call a high speed descent 270IAS to 25 miles and there are those who call it 300 till 15, same same ATC.

Yes, I've heard the same old " you don't have the big picture " excuses before and of course I don't expect any controller to actually admit there are good and bad controllers.

One PH ATC ex HK reckons it was a doddle compared to PH these days

What absolute BS ! HKG has the language issue, some very poor English, the issue of a lot of local pilots doing their own thing eg 180IAS at 30nm and you think having T/props, that are quite often as fast as jets in close, is a problem.
You reckon PH basin airspace is simple, with PEA & JT??
Guanzhou, Macau, Shenzen and Zuhai within spitting distance and nothing leaves the ground in HKG to head north without a clearance from china. Couple all this with far more traffic 24/7 than Perth could ever conceive.
Your comments just prove you lot need to get out and see a real airport in operation.

[Plazbot]

airdualbleeedfault, it does not matter at all how bad arse Hong Kong may be, 40 acft rocking up to arrive or taxi in a 30 minute window on a single runway is not going to work anywhere in the world. The problem here is that that half wit Two First Names thinks the solution is to ask his customers to change what they want as opposed to finding a way to cater to the market.

[Sequencer]

What absolute BS !

He's worked both places recently so he should know!!:=
There is still a couple of HKG ATCs ex PH, we know how hard they work.

don't expect any controller to actually admit there are good and bad controllers.

Of there are, just as there are incompetent and know all pilots.

the issue of a lot of local pilots doing their own thing

That sounds very familiar, I don't care if you have lined someone up behind me with someone else on a 3 mile final, I've landed and I going to take my sweet time getting off at the exit I want, so there....

Your comments just prove you lot need to get out and see a real airport in operation.

Been to airports in the States, Middle East, UK and that wonderful place HKG, still reckon individual ATCs in Australia (including PH) work as hard as any in the world. When was the last time you paid ATC a visit, I reckon never?

[Baileys]

"Been to airports in the States, Middle East, UK and that wonderful place HKG, still reckon individual ATCs in Australia (including PH) work as hard as any in the world. "

--Wow - big call

[international hog driver]

Yeah well when I went into VHHH 3 days ago it was NOMAN Star>Vector> Slowdown>vector> Star> speed up 300kts> vector> Vector *now headed south at 300kts @ 4000ft> vector> slow down> Star> runway change> Vector> speed up> cleared for the app call the tower, Between 3 approach controllers a then director before tower.:ok:

Perth would have a pink fit before they coped with the traffic density.

Absolutely not a dig at the controllers, but the work practices shoved down their throats and the lack of real estate.

Perth like Brisbane needs another runway yesterday, not a DFO or parking lot.

However politics and the $ worshipers will stifle our profession until there is a buck to be made by someone actually doing a good job.:mad:

[le Pingouin]

Yes, I've heard the same old " you don't have the big picture " excuses before and of course I don't expect any controller to actually admit there are good and bad controllers.Of course there are & of course we have good days & days when "I could have done that better", same same pilots.

Why do you find it so hard to accept that there are more factors than you can see from the pointy end & on TCAS? Maybe it's actually true......

My arrivals sequence might be a nice "string of pearls", until the flow controller intervenes & tells me to "max him up", "loose another 2 minutes with that one", etc & so forth. The buggering around you're getting from me may be all to do with what is going on in someone else's airspace.

[mikk_13]

We don't have single man operations in Germany. It is considered dangerous and thus it is very rare that it happens and strictly monitored to be in very low traffic scenarios.

However on the other side its called worlds best practice. Somebody must be wrong.

[ozineurope]

airdualblahblah

You forgot to mention the highspeed taxiways in HK, landing on one departing on the other, taxiway system that leads to thresholds, no BS noise abatement criteria, 5 terminal area controllers v 2 in PH.

Check out the fragrant harbour thread and see how well HK ATC fare with the locals there.

Small minded, narrow focussed people are what have gotten us into this pickle.

Its about the airport infrastructure, not the individuals.

[kimberleyEx]

Liam Bartlett's latest article in the Sunday Times 4th Dec:

Perth Airport is a nightmare | Perth Now (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/getting-into-or-out-of-perth-a-nightmare/story-e6frg13u-1226213176127)

Bravo Liam.

Great article!!

Cheers.

K-Ex.

[piston broke again]

If only they knew half of the airspace problems...

[outnabout]

And today at lunchtime, werent perth atc under pressure due to weather? Arriving traffic being told to expect up to 60 mins delays, traffic choosing to divert to ypkg or ypad, a rapidly diminishing number of parking spots on the apron (it seemed like even those who had private parking werent guaranteed a speedy arrival).... I reckon atc (perth and elsewhere) were working flat chat today.....

[chimbu warrior]

Perth like Brisbane needs another runway yesterday, not a DFO or parking lot.

Amen to that.

It seems like the people who run airports these days find aviation infrastructure to be an expensive nuisance.

[jarden]

You can add AKL to the list above, they put off building their 2nd runway too. "Retail is where money is to be made" -thats what nearly all airport companies think.

[Quokka]

Perth like Brisbane needs another runway yesterday, not a DFO or parking lot.

There is another runway... and a temporary solution to ease the problem until WAC build the parallel runway at YPPH sometime next decade.