Reasons not to apply for emirates airlines

[Thexman]

I do not feel safe in this kind of operation. We are working way too many hours and under the worst kind of working environment. Most of our operation is night flights. We always do the approach to land when we are the most tired. I have seen an increased tendency for colleagues to fall asleep during flights. Normally people who work night shifts are working fewer hours than normal. Normally people on long haul flights are working fewer hours than short haul because it’s considered extremely fatiguing.

In Emirates we are doing the opposite. When we are trying to tell management we get the answer that it is ok according to the computer model. A computer only has a certain amount of variables and does not know real life. We make fatigue reports that do not go in to the GCAA, so what’s the point in writing them? When Emirates have the big crash with lots of lives lost, all those reports are of course going to be lost. The hours at work does not correspond to the real hours. How can duty start one hour before departure when we are required to sit in the bus taking us to the plane 70 min before departure?

I am usually at work 2 hours before departure. We are allocated 30 minutes post duties time yet even 30 min after landing, passengers are still disembarking. On our rest days that we really need, time is spent doing Pelesys. Online courses, attending requisite medical and dental appointments, gaining visas, studies of new airplane installations, company emails, gabi, id cards and lots of other work related events are expected to be completed during our days off. When we are in for an uprade to Captain everything is done on our off days, eg the interview, psychometrics and so on. On top off that we have to pay for the parking. Some time ago we got a new headquarters. When this was done the chance to check your company mail and your mailbox was taken away. It is a requirement from the company to check your mail, the question is, then, when are we going to do this? On our days off, of course! Does the company provide you with a computer to do this? Of course NOT!

Emirates management does not care about anything that would make our lives easier. One of the reasons that we do not get adequate rest is because of a total lack of understanding about the environment onboard. On the Boeing we have extremely bad seats. Many guys I know have back problems directly as a result of the onboard ergonomics.

One reason for this is that we are not allowed to leave the cockpit to stretch out and relax in the galley for a while. We were not even allowed to get pillows and blankets to get a reasonably good controlled rest.

On long flights, when we have augmenting crew they are forcing us to stay in the crew bunk even though there are available seats onboard. If you are rested at that time and want to watch a movie you will end up with extreme neck pain because there are not even enough pillows to make a cushion.

The entire operation onboard is controlled in the slightest detail from office people who have no clue about how it is to actually do the operation. We have gradually had everything taken away from us in a most greedy manner. The company is making billions and yet they remove the access to the lounge at the training college where we could get a sandwich. The fact is, there is no other way to get a hold of anything to eat in the building at night. Thank you Emirates. Since I started 5 years ago we are working at least 50% more for no extra money. As a matter of fact with the high inflation in Dubai and the increase of the overtime pay threshold, we got a massive pay cut. Emirates even wanted us to pay for water and electricity, despite issuing us with a contract that clearly states it will be paid in total by Emirates. When we complained we were told that this was not a contractual breach but a change in conditions allowed for by the company. The contract is only really a contract when it suits Emirates.

We have flight time limitations to follow to protect us from being too tired. When the rules do not fit the production, you just change the rules.

Emirates just call it Annex 1,2 and so on.

I, and many of my colleagues didn’t come to live in a desert to work 100 flight hours a month and spend more time at work than an office worker. And this is even though we work night shifts and have to deal with jetlag. If you work in an office you get to come home every day. We spend more than half our life away from home.

The culture in the company is one of the worst I have ever seen. There are anonymous reports submitted against work colleagues. There is a backstabbing culture in the company that is detrimental for the safety of the flight.

Everybody is scared at work and there is no joy until people get back home again.

The cabin crew is treated as though they are mentally disabled. Indeed in a way even the Captain is. When deadheading as flight crew on a business class ticket we are not entitled to use the lounge. I feel ashamed to work for an airline like that. The passengers are looking at us with concern when we are denied access. This is a bit ironic when the biggest concern for the company is our appearance, rather than our skills. It’s a big scam. We are all extremely tired just do not show it and it is ok.

The Captain is not even in charge of the jump seats onboard. Jump seat access is not allowed and was told to me the very first day of work from the fleet manager along with a sarcastic smile on her face.

Final warning letters are given out randomly for reasons that are unbelievable. I recently flew with a guy that got a final warning for something that happened on a day off. Some person called the company and reported him. The company’s policy is, if you are called to the office you are guilty. A final warning means no bonus and no upgrade for at east 2 years. Another person on the same flight got a warning for a joke that was misinterpreted by one person. It is not allowed to make jokes In Emirates by policy. Do you think that a person who lost his bonus for some reason cares about saving fuel or anything else for Emirates? I think not. Quite the opposite! Verbal warnings are issued from an idiot, who is an assistant to an assistant. He can’t even get upgraded and still he is authorized to give these warnings. There are many examples of people who got sick while on vacation in their hometown. This is not acceptable according to Emirates. Even if you have a doctor’s certificate not to fly because of let’s say an ear infection, you will still get ordered back to Dubai. If you pop your ears and get permanent damage, they don’t care. Because of this punishment culture, there is a tendency to refrain from calling sick after a vacation, and to actually operate ill.

After the Melbourne incident, we could really see the support the company gives to us. Before even an investigation was complete the pilots were forced to resign. The management still denies this fact. They answer, are you calling us a liar? The answer is of course Yes, but if you say that you are fired.

When we fly these extremely long flights some people keep the Emirate’s pyjamas on when returning to the flight deck. This is because you feel a bit cold after sleeping and there is absolutely nobody that can see us in the flight deck. Some cabin crew reported this and it is now strictly forbidden, like everything else that improves our comfort.

We have one contractual annual leave ticket per year that is supposed to take you home. The flight routing home is entirely up to Emirates to choose the way to do it. I was booked on a flight to sit and wait in Frankfurt For 7 hours in transit. Why? It was the cheapest way! Try to email the staff travel a question and you will get a response based only on the first sentence you wrote.

The accommodation: In nice cities like London, Paris, and Rome, Emirates accommodates us at airport hotels. They want us to stay in the hotel all the time and they make deals with the hotel about big discounts on food and water, which doesn’t cost Emirates anything. Then they base the allowance on that discount. The allowance we get at certain places is a joke. In Dhaka the whole allowance is enough for 3 beers. I want to choose were to go and eat. I do not want to sit in a hotel. When I wake up in the morning and look out of the windows, I do not want to see an airport. We are supposed to get some relaxation.

The Bidding System. Thanks to the non-functioning bidding system you get what you like 2 months out of 5 if you are lucky. If you actually get the days off that you want there is always a manual insertion, right in the middle of those days off. It’s not a rocket science to create a system that would give people what they want. There is just no interest from the company.

Now the company is also attacking our crew bags. We do 9 days trips and we are allowed bring less weight than a passenger is entitled to. Economy pax can bring 30 kg and we can only bring 23 kg. Why is that? To keep us miserable! We are all expats and around Christmas when people want to bring some presents, 23 kg is nothing. Uniforms: The hat we wear is the most ridiculous I have ever seen.

Retirement: One captain just left Emirates after 20 years of duty, and his last flight was a night turnaround to India!!!! In serious airlines you could at least choose your last flight. In Emirates you cannot fly if your hat or tie would break. One first officer’s tie broke on the way to the airplane. He asked the duty manager to get a new one and then he proceeded to the airplane in order not to delay the flight. He was later called on the radio and was told that he was taken off the flight because his uniform was not correct. The flight was delayed one hour and he was warned.

We have a fleet VP who is obsessed with the uniform. At the same time they are asking us pilots to think out of the box. What a joke. He has been standing outside the customs to check people’s uniforms. He was complaining about one captain who came with a bag that had the wrong colour.This would be ok if Emirates actually gave us flight bags. I think all pilots should have pink or purple bags until the airline give us bags. Then again, poor Emirates only made 1.6 billion dollars this year. We have a nasty little man who is the chief of HR whose only job is to get you fired. Be aware!

Accommodation: If or when you move out of the company accommodation there is no coordination between people moving in and out. The people moving out must clear their garden completely and years of planting and growing of the trees goes to waste. The next occupants have to start all over again and buy a very expensive irrigation system.
Is this Job protection or just more stupidity? I don’t know.

More to follow-

[dessertdude]

:hmm: Failed the upgrade?

[ekpilot]

Thexman I have to agree with what you've written. Most of us are stuck here. It's just a job. When I go to work it makes me smile to hear all the reasons people express to self comfort themselves. Everybody I work with is "Happy". We all have to work to feed our families. No choice. The work environment is difficult and not improving. At the end of the day everybody is here for themselves and don't really care about others. That's one face of the expat world. You have to make the best out of it. Sadly I'm seeing many people struggling more and more around me. I can feel the frustration every day around me. Some blame the Middle East. Others blame EK. But overall It is a new world reality. It's tough out there.

I think it will even get worst. They have put the bar so high. They are proud of how many airplanes they have and profits they make. Unfortunately you can't put all the blame on Emirates. After all the success of Emirates is based on a model of globalization. All about image, low costs and big margins. Many people are proud of it. In a way, you have to give them credit. It still pays salaries and feed 50000+ people. We can't deny this fact. It's everywhere these days and not just here at EK. Everybody is tightly competing to have a piece of the pie. The new world reality. You have to work, not because you like it but because you have to. Hope they can pay me more and give me more bonuses because i work hard and i think i deserve it. That's all I can hope for because i'm greedy :{

In the mean time, keep discovering :ok:

[jinglied]

From what I recall, Thexman's comments are quite accurate are they not?

Why assume that he failed an upgrade? Unless, of course, all present EK Captains share none of his opinions?

Jinglie'd

[Jolly Foreigner]

Thexman - you could always go back to Alitalia or the tin pot outfit you left and wonder whether your job was going to be there the next day. Please feel free to visit the 3rd floor of the ivory towers with your resignation if life is so unbearable in the sandpit. Like the rest of us, YOU signed the contract and YOU agreed to the terms at that moment in time. We all know things in this part of the World can be less than ideal and that we get sh***ed with new management models/ideas, but this should have been part of your homework before committing to come to EK. Believe me things are worse outside. I suggest you go down to the training college and see how many guys from good airlines are coming through from reasonably good airlines unlike a few years ago, you might then get the picture.

Thank Allah you are on the 'cripple 7', as I would hate to be sat next to you for 7 hours or worse be on layover with the constant whinging. Small suggestion - look at the things that have been good to you and your family in DXB and EK and if things are worse than when you left your previous carrier then resign and go to grass that is greener. If you find it please tell the other 2900 pilots in EK so we can join you, as in the current climate I doubt you will, but you never know.

:=

[Jetaim]

So very true. A place for idiotic losers!!

[Alpha 6]

could be worse...flying in a light trainer airplane in the desert, middle of summer with no airconditioning looking at the shiny jets and wishing to fly them

[slowjet]

Give me the light trainer ! Sounds a million miles better than the picture Thexman paints. All credit to the latter. Splendid post but what a miserable life it seems to have become. If you really have resigned, you have demonstrated great courage. Years ago, as an anti-union person, I used to tell people, 'If you don't like it, leave !' That was when there were lots of jobs around. I tried to change things from within but got slapped around, quite a bit. I HAD to join the bloody Union but they did not change the things that really matter to us. Things that Thexman articulates so well. Glad I am about to hang up my boots. I can boast 40 years of it and have seen a once glorious career disintegrate into this mess that we endure daily. My own company is going the same way. Cabin crew reporting pilots, huge restrictions on Staff Travel, daft uniform hats (Once observed a foreign crew, immaculate in trendy uniforms, no hats, which really suited the younger, good looking Dudes with, yes, wait for it, very tidy but LONG hair). The trend, downwards, in T&C's, does go back , some twenty odd years. Joined a new Company where the Fleet Manager, in a private rant, claimed that his last year in Airline Piloting was, clearly, his unhappiest. Hey, buddy, in the Big Hangar, it has got a lot worse & I share Thexman's fear that it could lead to a terrible disaster. I cannot choose my last flight either but I am damned if I am going to wear my bloody hat & I WILL take to work my PINK flight bag with that lovely BIG sticker on the side that says " Pilots dot it in the cockpit".
Good luck Thex,. You are going to do just fine. Safe flying out there.

[yada.yada.yada]

Alpha 6, most of us have done exactly what you are doing...we have paid our dues, sorry, no sympathy from me.

Thexman - I hear you brother!

[Exascot]

Glad I got out of this game 12 years ago. However, please guys could we have flight deck crews who are at least awake for the landings and take offs on the ATH-DXB-JNB a week on Friday :(

[BYMONEK]

Thexman

If you're leaving, perhaps I don't blame you for offloading your frustrations.

However, whilst I certainly agree with one or two points in your post, in my view there is more emotion than cold facts. Whilst I'm certainly not defending EK for all their policies and procedures, judgement needs to be balanced.

Annex flights and variations are not unique to EK, far from it. Secondly, ASR's are legally required to be submitted to the regulatory authority and they are. If you feel that a report had been submitted and it's been doctored sufficiently to deflect the true problem, then speak to flight safety. If that fails, use the GCAA's confidential reporting system.

I have never in my entire time heard of anyone receiving a final warning for no reason. Unless I see it in writing or I know the individual concerned, I ignore rumour and hearsay. Just because we hear a story from 2 or 3 sources does not a true story make. It's just the same one going round and round being spiced up each day. Do you know the reason why the Melbourne guys resigned? If you do, regardless of the process, you might understand why they left and not stay to appeal. In all cases, our 'friends' accounts of events will naturally be heavily biased to their own viewpoint.

Not once have I ever been reported by any crew member. Treat people as you wish to be treated and you'll be surprised how often extra pillows are offered, along with cappucinos! I also make it very clear in all briefings that any personal issues should come through me first. That negates the back stabbing. Lounge access? Never a problem when on duty travel, staff travel is a different issue altogether.

So, looking at other aspects of your gripes. Is there any reason why you can't check your mail before a flight, especially if you're dropped off early? It takes 5 minutes.... if you can be bothered to leave your case by laundry and take the elevator down 1 floor. Training? I too detest Pelesys, which is why it has been reduced considerably as a result of pilot feedback and we now get several extra classroom days each year. Which would you prefer? You will have to study anyway, regardless of which airline you're employed by. Visa runs are a pain, sure, but part and parcel of life here. It's once every 3 years. Is it really that bad? Did you not have to do medicals with your last airline or pay car insurance or gas bills, all the same things that millions of people all over the World have to fit in between their working days. I don't know any airline that gives you time off for personal admin. My EK medicals are done on either standby days or R/D's.

Talking of bills, why do you think Emirates brought in the 'cap' on utility bills? Because, as usual, people were abusing the system, heating swimming pools, watering big grass filled gardens and putting air conditioner units into large garden sheds so their bicycles didn't rust. Despite this cap, there is not one pilot who has actually had to pay a single dirham. Did you?

I don't care about the suitcase limit because I'm rarely over it. If I am, it doesn't bother me because I know I don't take the piss. I'll be quite happy to stand up and defend it anyway. Overnight allowances have never not covered me for what they're designed for. If you want to go outside and eat in Dhaka, feel free. Yes, a poor example I know which is why i'm surprised you used it for your example. Is it not a muslim country where alcohol is prohibitively expensive for that very reason? If you're that desperate for a beer or three within 24 hours, stick a few stubbies in your case.

Wearing the hat? It's been done to death here before. The Company provide me a uniform and pay me to wear it, so I do. Did you not notice the hats before you joined if you felt it so much of an issue? Which leads me to my final point. Pyjamas.

Your comment was actually the catalyst for my reply. To be honest, I found it rather pathetic. You obviously find it acceptable to wear them on the flight deck whilst you undertake your professional duties. I wonder if you'd ever thought if this would present a problem during a time critical emergency, conducting a NITS brief, diverting due to a medical problem or having to deal with an issue in the cabin? If i'd been your Captain, I would have ensured that the scenario of you being reported would not have materialised. When you are part of the operating crew, regardless of it being a ULR operation, you operate in uniform. Not only does it demostrate professional attitude, it forms the basic manners and courtesy that's required when we share our confined working environment with fellow colleagues.

I wish you well in your new airline and I hope it brings you the satisfaction that you desire. I suspect though, from reading your post, that wherever you end up, your unhappiness will follow.

[B737-3-9]

OP

If all pilot's think & agree with your mentality, in today;s world the airline go bust in no time.

Before you joined, you've read the T&C's and signed it that means you agree to the T&C.

In other words, suck it up or else go somewhere else to find your preferred airline that would give you all the perks.

[sheikmyarse]

Xmen... very good post. The best ever read. So very true!!
I just want to add: if you are a western pilot with a brain and a job:

DO NOT THINK OF JOINING THIS ****** UP CIRCUS

Stick to your job, stick to civilization, to democracy,don't become an accomplice of this bunch of fascist arabic arsholes unless you are desperate..but really reallly desperate.
Leave your place to geniuses like B737 -3-9... He's smart, he read the contract..ah ah ah ah!!!
Mate.. your contract is worth the paper you just cleaned your arse with ...and if tomorrow they decide you are camel... you will be a camel... or leave it ..fokker!

[Schnowzer]

F5,

Don't let the truth get in the way of a good rumour! :D

Those that really agree with Thex need to leave immediately for their own sanity. If I really believed it was that bad I'd be gone in a heartbeat.

Thex best of luck though I doubt anywhere will match up to your expectations.:ok:

[Instant Hooligan]

Bymonek,
Just a small point but not all ASR's are reportable to the GCAA and included in that are fatigue related ASR's.
Check out CAAP22 (Incident Reporting) on the GCAA website

Civil Aviation Advisory Publication (CAAP) (http://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/epublication/pages/caap.aspx)

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Minor correction really... It's not called emirates airlines, it's Emirates Airline (singular).
People who claim that they actually work (or suffer) there should know, I think.

[BYMONEK]

IH

You're absolutely correct, thanks. MOR's are but all ASR's are kept and are available for review by the authority.

So, does that mean EK are guilty of hiding them if they're not required to submit them?

[Non Zero]

F5 minor correction ... the name of the airline you were referring is Qatar Airways. Pilots who work in the Gulf know!

[yancharlie]

How to make a pilot happy:
We need to be overpaid, underworked, and the most important of all oversex. And even though you can get all three of them ok, someone will still find something to complain about. There is far worse place than EK, aka the US regionals:E.

[Doc Jekyll]

There are a lot of reasons, why not to join Emirates or any other Gulf Airline. Some of them are controversial like the pilots' nag-nag-nag, others are evident.

The absolute no go, however, which has never been explicitly mentioned in this forum so far, is the exposure to health risks. Yes, it depends on where you are coming from and it could be that you are coming from a place which is even less healthy.

But consider this:
Emirates is fully aware of all the serious health-problems which are related to air-conditioning ducts which are overgrown with fungi – they just sweep it under the carpet.

At one stage I had enough, when my central air-conditioning unit started to fail at decreasing intervals and the maintenance guys continued to tell me that I just have to shut it down for de-icing.
Completely fed-up, I took the ladder and climbed into the ceiling with a flashlight where the Indians used to crawl in. Before my eyes adapted to the dark, I realised that my arms and elbows immediately started to itch. When I could see something, I noted that the whole duct, the electric motor and the heat-exchanger were covered in mould and fungi. There was this huge whitish mushroom mixed with ice which blocked the airflow and, after the ice melted, the fungus was still there, alive and kicking.
So I got a spatula, scraped off a huge amount of all this skin-irritating crap and brought it to the clinic. The doctor was very helpful and sent it to the lab for analysis. You can imagine what this stuff does to your lungs if you get a skin-rash from it within half a minute.

Three days later, the clinic received a report which stated that about a dozen types of fungi had been identified but that the lab would need another sample in order to be able to identify the rest of them. I also received a letter from the clinic for the accommodation department which strongly recommended to move me out of that villa.

At home I googled some of the scientific names and was flabbergasted to read about all the effects of continuous spore-inhalation. It read like a compilation of all the problems my family and friends in Dubai were complaining about, starting with chronic exhaustion, nota bene. These little cells, or should I say creatures, grow in your body, folks, and they cause anything from chronic respiratory problems over arthritis (feel the pain in the joints?) to cancer. They can grow in your alveoli, in your sinuses, on your cornea and in your blood.

You guys who are still there must know that mysterious cough which is being treated by the clinic with anti-biotics but does not go away for weeks. :sad:

I hear the guys who say that air-conditioning ducts can be cleaned by specialised companies, using robots and the lot. True, but these spores are of microscopic size and you are deceiving yourself if you think you have a clean duct after having spent from AED 5000 upwards. The fungi will start to re-grow immediately. Chemicals? Not really an option, is it? One should not try to exorcise the devil by engaging Belzebub. Or would you really want to inhale an aerosol of something which the maintenance guy brings in his filthy jerry-can (probably forbidden by the Geneva-convention :})? Or trust something which says ‘ecologically hazardless” on it? Why would the fungi die then? On the long run, they will re-grow anyway – they love it in there.

If you are young and can afford to toss a couple of years of life-expectancy – go ahead and have fun on the big birds.:ok: Just bear in mind that first officers without children live in towers, some of which are already, and all of which will be covered in mould and you don’t even have a chance to get the ducts cleaned with your own funds. It would be herculean, and, by the way, most windows cannot even be opened to get some ‘fresh’ air into your flat.

Ever thought of the composition of the smog when you hit the ****topause at 10’000 feet? They make fuzz in my country over the elevated content of micro-particles and ozone of the air during summer. :8
You got that all year around in Dubai. Deduct the unfiltered diesel-exhaust from trucks, diggers and TATA-buses and still you inhale air containing an amount of sand and poisonous particles which exceeds x-fold the alarm level in countries with decent ecological awareness. It’s gonna take decades to get that out of your lungs again. It’s true that you have that in many other big cities, but it all adds up. :ouch:

Certainly you don’t want to expose your wife and kids to such health-hazards because, unlike you, they have to stay there all the time. I have been talking only about the fungi spores for now. Consider also the funny germs imported from Asia and Africa :suspect: which rapidly spread and are evenly distributed 24/7 through the schools’ air-conditioning system. Poor kids. Some strains were thought to be practically extinct in the West, like streptococcus type A who prospers in the UAE (yes, we contracted it). Start to think about it when you next inhale the foul and moist air of a duct while wandering about the fancy shopping malls.

Did you know they still have fresh-water pipes made from asbestos in use in Jumeirah? :eek:

And last but not least:
do you want to let your kids play in one of those germ-incubators aka ‘cooled’ swimming pools? If they are ok from a bacteriological point of view, it means that they are full of heavy chemicals. Swim in the sea alternatively? Then check the dung which goes into Jumeirah beach, even when the sewage treatment plants are working - check out the pipe at the DOSC or have a look at the colour of the water after taking off from 30.:yuk:
Oh no, it’s not human faeces, it’s red tide! Right! I just wonder what these interesting little cells are feeding on. Fertiliser, probably. :E

Not all people react the same, but there is no doubt that this problem is quite serious.

So, do your own and your family’s health a favour:

If you can, move out.
If you can’t leave, move your family out.
If you don’t need to, don’t go to live there.

[Bartholomew]

Oh my word!

People comparing the "bad"things at EK to the "good" things which they remember from their last lives......

Do yourself a favour. Sit down, slap yourself VERY hard in the face (several times... if necessary) until you realise that you left your last life to come to EK for a reason.

EK offered you much more than you had then, and probably more than you could have imagined being "given".

If you (or anyone who feels sympathetic to the first post in this thread) feel that you can do better elsewhere right now... please do one of two things:

1) Tell the rest of us about this package which beats what we have here
2) Leave quietly

Ranting here is only going to get you one response.... SLAPPED! :ouch:

[Pitch Up Authority]

The UAE GCAA is corrupt. If you put a safety related issue on their desk the only thing they do is to put the lights out and the spotlight on the same way as they do in a CIA interrogation room. The only thing that makes sense is to stay below the radar and leave silently via the backdoor if you had enough.

[BYMONEK]

LR3

The head of the police recently said that there were no reported date rape cases in Dubai. Either he's covering the truth or, doesn't realise that people will not report it because the victim themselves will be arrested for illegal sex. Either way, the problem does exists and they know it.

Do you really think that a GCAA official is going to stand up in 7DAYS and say there's a problem?

EK has a recognised reporting format for ASR's. However, only an MOR is required to be submitted to the GCAA. If it's not an MOR, the regulatory authority will not receive it as there's no stipulation or requirement of the operator to submit it. The GCAA can at any time randomly select a percentage of ASR's for review.

Ultimately, it's up to the post holders within EK, from those in Flight Safety, Flight Operations and right up to Tim Clarke himself to decide if they consider the risk to be one worth taking. Based on current operations, they do. When the smoking hole occurs, and it will one day, they may be found culpable if it can be proved they ignored genuine safety concerns. I suggest therefore that you keep a record of all your fatigue ASR's and have them ready for the investigation team.

As for the jim jams, they're for sleeping in. That's not just being professional, it's basic etiquette and manners.

[Left Coaster]

Hiya Doc, are you able to give us a look at those reports? Not trying to put you on the spot, but I would like to have a gander at what was reported...Standing by...
LC

[Doc Jekyll]

Favour granted: I left quietly :p and I am not ranting :=. It's damn serious.

[Exascot]

Sorry, I only fly with you guys, have not worked with you but pyjamas on the flight deck is ridiculous. What ever happened to standards. I never even fly as a passenger without wearing a tie. I can just imagine a ditching scenario - 'who is the guy in the dingy wearing pyjamas?' 'Oh that is the captain, he was asleep at the time of impact' :(

Congrats by the way on being voted by the Daily Telegraph as the reader's favourite airline. We agree. We know you have huge problems in the ivory tower and I am glad that I didn't take up the offer 16 years ago. This was mainly because I couldn't see myself living in Dubai and dealing with RHs.

We really look forward to flying with you again next week. Our first time on the A380. I am going to lean on the bar for most of the trip and have a shower before we land - another first :ok:

BTW we have flown with you many times and your cabin crew are exceptional.

[Craggenmore]

related to air-conditioning ducts which are overgrown with fungi

Probably not the only A/C ducts in the world with **** in them..!

[Exascot]

But have you ever seen them at SEP?

No, because as I said, I didn't work for Emirates in the end. Do I need to worry? :sad: Hopefully my own training will suffice should it be required!

[Doc Jekyll]

Culture report:
- a mixed growth of Acremonium species
- several (at least 3) types of Dematiceous Fungi
- Further I.D. in this laboratory not possible

The letter of the clinic says:

To whom it may concern:

:mad: and his family have been suffering with symptoms consistent with hypersensitivity to mould, for the entire time that they have resided in their accomodation in Dubai. Symptoms include persistent upper respiratory tract irritation, dermatitis, arthralgia and fatigue.

He reports a dripping air-conditioning system, which is full of growth and has taken photographs of this to support his concerns. Apparently he has approached the landlord for as much assistance as possible.

A sample of the air-conditioning duct growth has grown a mixed growth of Acremonium species and several (at least 3) types of Dematiceous Fungi. I have not proceeded with RAST testing as the symptoms and the exposure are consistent with hypersensitivity to mould. I would consider that he may benefit from a change in accomodation. Thank you for any assistance which you may be able to provide him.

Yours Sincerely Dr. :mad:

[Axum]

Pilots need blanket, pillow and pyjama?
It seems to be a DREAM job. ;)

[Pitch Up Authority]

LR3

What you say is true but I guess my post was a little sarcastic.
I know the GCAA probably understand this goes on but as the same guy is in control of both EK and GCAA they are not going to cause waves for EK.

You hit the nail on the head.

BYMONEK

Political ranting

[fatbus]

Once agian the the guy that run EK does NOT run the GCAA he runs DAA ( Dubai airports ), big difference

[Pitch Up Authority]

FATBUS

What you say is absolute nonsense. They all report to the same individual, just look at who sits on the GCAA board.

[fatbus]

Yes he sits on the board,but does not run the GCAA.

ps; you should see the problems we have dealing with the GCAA

[skytrax]

I am quite surprised when I see pilots complaining so much about Emirates and bringing up only negatives.
Not a word about:
-free accomodation (villa if you have children), bills payed
-a car to pick you up and drop you home from work
-no tax on your income
-medical insurance for family
-school fees payed for kids
......just to name a few.

Do you work hard?
yes, you do.
do you get good pay/benefits in exchange?
yes you do. if you wouldnt get them you'd leave dubai. you are here 'cos its worth it and the job is safe, not because you love the heat and the dust.
Dont get me wrong, far from me to think that its a perfect world out here but its only fair to get the whole picture when we talk about it.

all the b...ks about the the uniform and the hat makes me laugh. its part of the deal to show up at work with a clean uniform/have all the items. at the end of the day its a matter of respect for you profession which you trained so hard for.

[EK773ER]

Well, I actually like our hat, I have worn another hat during my aviation career, but the EK hat is actually very smart in my opinion. I know I am in the minority that thinks this, however, the uniform is going to be changed soon anyway....and the hat is here to stay albeit a different design I have heard ;) come on guys, wearing the hat is part of looking the 'part'.

[BigGeordie]

Skytrak, the reason people don't mention the free housing is because it isn't free. If you don't live in it you get an allowance. Your free housing is costing you about 14,000Dhs a month.

The transport to and from work is great, but it does get me to work about an hour before my official sign on time. Maybe I should live further from the airport.

There is no direct tax on income but there are plenty of other taxes -sorry, "fees", in Dubai, from Salik to phantom speeding fines. It is not a cheap place to live.

You are paying for your family medical insurance, it is deducted from your salary every month.

Finally, most of the school fees are paid. It still takes a chunk out of your income if you have a couple of ankle biters.

Can't get excited about the hat either way....

[Doc Jekyll]

skytrax, be careful with that medical insurance. Like everything, it gives you a false sense of security. Try to get a letter for your family (if you have one) which can be used while they are on vacation at home - it gives you an idea about the amount EK will pay in total. The coverage is ridiculous if any really serious illness occurs as in the case of my family. Beware of your wife though: she will freak out when she will realise that she and the kids have much less coverage than daddy.

By the way: are you happy with the fact that your company knows through the clinic EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING about you, your wife, your kids? :uhoh:

There! What was that rumbling and sighing sound again? George Orwell uneasily turning in his grave!

Beside the fact that it is not free, it's a scam folks.

[skytrax]

Guys,

Its not perfect but its a lot better than most of the others. You know it and that's why you are still here!

Don't complain about Salik and fines. Its nothing! Been here for a few years, never had a bogus fine.
Why dont you mention that here in UAE you get a car with no VAT and import tax! I changed my car recently, and checked how much is the price back home, somewhere in Europe. The difference its 15.000 Euros. Thats all tax and tax that you dont get to pay here in UAE. not to mention the cost of fuel.


@Geordie, accomodation is free, its part of your deal! Company is paying your rent. Or they give you the option of getting whatever house you want. The house allowance you can choose to get instead covers a decent villa. Its even better like this 'cos you're not forced to live in company accomodation. If you want to save money you get an apartment and pocket the rest. many do this.

It all depends how you look at things.

Medical insurance you pay for your family it is still a good deal comparing to what you get! You should be happy you have the option of doing so and not have to get an outside private medical insurance. They are very expensive as medical services are very expensive in UAE. I have friends that need to pay as their contract doesnt cover the family and I got to know about it. Just for you to have an ideea, a simple consultation cost 525dhs at American Hospital.

Again, its not perfect, I wish the medical cover would be the same for the whole family. Also, living costs have gone up a lot in the last 3-4 years and muncipality fees have been invented.
Still, you have to look out there before complaining so much and see what's around you. your deal is still one of the best in the industry.

[Craggenmore]

your deal is still one of the best in the industry.

Amen to that..!

[Pitch Up Authority]

FATBUS,

Correct, HH sits on the board and does not run the GCAA. This was at the demand of the ICAO. In practice HH does always have the last word.

I know, I was the reason why EK fired two members of the senior management after I informed HH and the GCAA of what was going on in EK.

The reality is that I never got any justice myself. The GCAA, read HH will always protect EK.

The day an EK capt cancels a flight bcs of duty time limits he will be fired and it will be HH that will cover for EK.

[GoreTex]

pitchy,
thats total bull, I know a few captains (including myself) who didnt go into discretion and never got a call.
seriously if you spread that **** its not good for any of us.

[LHR Rain]

Emirates is far from the best in the industry for pilots. It is also far from the worse but keep in mind how much we work and how we are treated. One might think long and hard about coming to the sand to work for Arabs.

[jinglied]

Sonny H,

I'm sure there are many very qualified F\O's at Emirates who would like to debate you on the "DEC 777" issue ....

Do you actually get several FREE flights every year? This must be a drastic change to past policies. I believe you get ONE free trip once per year, to your nominated home country. Am I wrong here?

Your claim to free schooling... how so? I didn't know anyone who did not have to supplement significantly out of their own income to pay for their children's education.

And the comments here about medical coverage. I totally agree with the fact that the pilots were taken care of VERY WELL by the company. I saw this myself on a couple of occasions. However, the coverage extended to families is something entirely different. The premium paid out of your income is quite small, but as a result, so is the coverage. Is it not more important to be protected for serious health issues than the small ones? If a family member becomes seriously ill, your coverage will be finished very quickly. You will be faced with returning to your home country OR paying medical bills out of your own pocket OR both.

Yes, I agree that the free accommodation is, for the most part, a good deal. Unless you are one of the 'lucky' ones who get placed into a 'dump' as we did. It was years before we could move into other accommodations, at our own cost obviously.

... Like Skytrax said, paint the whole picture ..

Jinglie'd

[cerbus]

Why do you want to DEC Sonny? Do you tell your FOs that you fly with that you are willing to shaft them?
My schooling cost me 3 months salary to educate 2 kids.
Medical, I had better quality back home but they do try to look after you.
Don't even try to think that EK is the best airline in the world.
You can cite all the money statistics you want but at the end of the day it is how we are treated. Very badly

[paokara]

I am in shock, Typhoon pilot not a single comment yet?

Lets se what typhoon pilot will have to say about this to defend his owners.

[Sciolistes]

Must be a great place to work if you need to look for reasons not to apply :\

[Doc Jekyll]

If ANYONE thinks that this is a transparent society then you really should come here and enjoy the hypocrisy.

Amen to that.

[Doc Jekyll]

Must be a great place to work if you need to look for reasons not to apply

Shoof Habibi: nobody is looking for them. They are simply there. The problem is: you will not find out until you are there (and have signed all the blank A4 papers which will be used to print statements in Arabic, yaani.)

And even then, you don't want to see these reasons, until one morning, you go to the bathroom, look into the mirror and you have to admit: I can't deceive myself any longer. :ugh: Well, I couldn't - consequently I quit.

If you do not want to see all this, fair enough, it's your call :ok:

[Waste Management]

I am surprised that anybody in this forum questions the assertion that GCAA is subject to politics, conflicting relationships, influence and plain old-fashioned favouring of the home team. It happens at all levels - for a prime example, peruse the Prestige Jet thread which can be accessed at

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/450974-prestige-jet-all-merged-threads.html

It is replete with numerous anecdotes from pilots, engineers and management personnel describing GCAA looking the other way or actively protecting the company in the face of serious violations which either GCAA should know if they are on the job and/or they refuse to do The Right Thing when a courageous employee comes forward with the evidence.

If it is going on over there to such extent, can you seriously believe that EK does not have even more wasta, with or without Sheikh Ahmed being at the top of both organisations? How many other countries would permit such a duality of the same powerful person participating at senior levels in both the regulator and regulatee, which provides an automatic egregious conflict of interest, from the get-go, especially when that person outranks every person in the land, save one?

[KangarooFlyer]

Prestige Jet is owned by a relatively minor cousin in the Abu Dhabi royal family, Sheikh Hamed Ben Ahmed Al Hamed, yet by all accounts they have enough wasta and other influence to get GCAA to ignore serious violations, grant exceptions to regulations, and protect the company, for example, blocking unpaid aircraft owners from de-registering their aircraft and taking them out of Prestige Jet. You can read such stories in the Prestige Jet thread and also in http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/458678-clue-me.html .

Compared to EK, Prestige Jet is a puny playtoy for Sheikh Hamed Ben Ahmed Al Hamed, yet GCAA is made to look bad by its lack of enforcement of significant safety regulations there, especially in the face of whistleblowing employees bringing issues directly to GCAA's attention and then GCAA not responding. If Sheikh Hamed Ben Ahmed Al Hamed can flout judgments of the courts of Abu Dhabi and induce GCAA personnel who are supposed to exercise safety oversight to act as if it they are on the payroll of Prestige Jet, imagine what our Sheikh Ahmed can accomplish without saying or doing anything, just by fact of being in leadership positions at both EK and GCAA and everybody knowing how important EK is to the economy of Dubai.

Any aspiring GCAA employee would probably think twice before raising a serious issue with EK, regardless whether Sheikh Ahmed is on their Board or not. He need not say or do anything to make that happen.

[Thexman]

Otherwise i would keep my mouth shut.

[Thexman]

My friend. You must be blind and deaf. I guess you were not around during Ed Davidsons time or you have never opened your company email.

[KangarooFlyer]

Thexman, it is unclear to whom or what are you responding in these last two posts?

[BeCareful]

Plenty of info about Emirates is available out there. It seems that people make their own choice whether to apply or not.

Unless you're a local, you always have a choice to stay or go back to your own country where things are far superior than they are at EK or any other place. You can always go back to easyJet or Ryanair or some low-paying job back in the US. They really care more than EK ever will.

Just sayin'.... :ok:

[trent1974]

BYMONEK,

In response to your first post on this thread, you took the words right out of my mouth.

Trent

[KangarooFlyer]

Back to the topic of Sheikh Ahmed's dual role, this comment appeared in the authoritative Financial Times coverage of the air show and the orders:

"Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum, who has guided the airline since its formation, also runs the civil aviation authority, nurturing the symbiotic relationship between the two entities, as the airport tries to overtake London’s Heathrow as the world’s busiest by 2015."

Emirates: Dubai airline’s bid to be biggest takes off - FT.com (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/3ff69796-0941-11e1-8e86-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1dmuj0iTI)

It seems clear to the rest of the world; it's interesting that there is even a debate about this on PPRuNe by the pilots who work at Emirates.

[White Knight]

Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum is President of the DCAA.
Dubai Civil Aviation Authority (DCAA)

He is a board member of the GCAA.
Welcome to UAE General Civil Aviation Authority

He is the Chairman and CEO of Emirates Airline & Group.
HH Sheikh Ahmed Bin Saeed Al Maktoum | Leadership | Our Company | The Emirates Group

These are the facts.

On a nice little earner then:}:}

[Waste Management]

Regardless of whether we debate what it means to sit on the board of the GCAA versus "running" it, can we agree that he wields enormous influence over GCAA activities and actions? I can't imagine that he is considered "just another board member" and lacks influence, if not overtly, by his long shadow due to who he is and what his other positions are.

Can anybody name other places where the same person heads the airline, the airports and sits on the board of the regulatory oversight authority of both? I suppose there are similar examples in some places, but I think that this is not the norm because of the appearance of prima facie conflict of interest among those three responsibilties.

[journeyman]

Hey Doc,

Now that you've left for cleaner pastures, shouldn't you be trawling your new employer's websites instead of lingering on this one?

I'm sure you'll contend that you're just doing your civic duty by warning the rest of us about the evils of living here - thanks for that, duly noted - but I think I'll make my own decision whether or when to quit.

It's over man, let it go.

[xxxpil]

Hi guys, I'm considering to apply for Emirates. But reading all of this posts.... makes me think at least. .. Is anyone happy there? Is anyone enjoying it? How many flights per months? Hours?
Can someone post a typical EK roster?
I'm flying for 11 years on TAP Portugal. I earn around 5500€ as Cpt. Sure we have a union here, "rights" and etc... and there's no place like home, but pilots are stabbing each other on the back, we are our own worst enemy. Portugal is sinking, politicians here are just a bunch of crooks, retirement... whats that?!?? Social security?! never heard about it. Saving money? How?! Shall I take my kids out of private school and put them on the decaying public school system? I pay here the same amount EK offers for education.
I pay taxes as a german and I get south american, schools, roads, hospitals.
I understand that british, australians, and guys from other "first world" countries with strong economies, well fare, etc etc, complain about UAE and EK. Believe me if I was flying for LH or BA I wouldn't apply for EK. Is it the worst place to work? Is it better to work for Ryanair? (sarcasm)
Is it good anywhere?
Thanks

[Eric Carr]

Is anyone happy there? Is anyone enjoying it?
The guy who started this thread is complaining about not being able to fly in his PJs. If this is a big problem in your current airline my bet it´s a pretty problem free airline...
But if you have problem with huge losses, downsizing, pay cuts etc... ie REAL problems then EK just might be the place for you...

Can anybody name other places where the same person heads the airline, the airports and sits on the board of the regulatory oversight authority of both?
Maybe not the same person but the same people, it´s called STATE OWNED AIRLINES:ugh:

[BAcrewwife]

I think you will find that many international carriers fromt he middle east do the same thing. my husband works for BA and he works over 100 hours flying a month unfortunately totalling 110 hours flying time and thats not counting his standby days.

The fact is if you choose to fly you must be ready to handle this type of life it isnt easy for anyone and all airlines are the same internationally like this..

[Sciolistes]

Hi guys, I'm considering to apply for Emirates. But reading all of this posts.... makes me think at least. .. Is anyone happy there?
Mate, you can read these threads until the cows come home, but you really will not know if you will enjoy unless it in the ME you have some direct contact with people who work and fly in the region.

Many pilots here enjoy work and like the life. Many don't. Anecdotally, I would say the former in the majority, but nobody can really say they know for sure. But whatever you do, do not use pprune to make a decision, it is a distorted representation of reality. I suggest you form an open minded opinion then go for the assessment and meet as many guys there as you can.

[xxxpil]

Sciolistes,
You are absolutely right. That's what I'm trying to do, to gather information more accurate as possible... many questions remain.
Thanks

[donpizmeov]

SI,

I think Mrs BA was refering to Baaaa-rain Air, not the BA of the Nigel variety.

[Tankengine]

What is the stick hour limit per year?:confused:
At my airline it is 900 hours longhaul and 1000 hours shorthaul with some pilots in the past pushing those limits.:bored:

[Wizofoz]

Tank,

900. BUT hours spent in the bunk as Augmenting crew (not operating crew) don't count. This can push it up to or even past the 1000.

[KangarooFlyer]

I don't believe that Bahrain Air has this bunking issue?

[gundam]

If you change the word " Emirates" with " Qatar Airways" the content match perfectly as well......:mad:

[Craggenmore]

Averaging 65 hours per month on 330.

Food for thought :ok:

[Doc Jekyll]

I'm sure you'll contend that you're just doing your civic duty by warning the rest of us about the evils of living here - thanks for that, duly noted - but I think I'll make my own decision whether or when to quit.

It's over man, let it go.

Thanks for the hint, Journeyman, and sorry about disturbing your cozyness.

My post was written because I get more and more requests to elaborate on why I left. It is therefore adressed mainly to people who are about to join but feel that there must be something fishy about it. And rightly so!

I should therefore have left out the last lines of advice to the guys who are still there - they won't admit to the facts until they will decide to leave. You will decide on your own - fair enough. :ok:

And sorry, I cannot let go because my child still badly suffers - probably for the rest of her life - from my egoistic decision to uproot my family :ouch: and to force it to live in a country where (beside the exposure to all toxins which officially don't exist) we had to betray all the values we believe in, and which actually are not negotiable!

You know how it is: they are cunning, you are cunning. They call it mutual respect, which is not mutual at all since you have to respect them, while their faith-related OM-A al kareem entitles them to treat you, al kafreen, like sh#T - unpunished. If you have any doubts about that, get a copy at Magrudys (maktoob yaani, so please don't call me enemy of I.), or listen to the loudspeaker on Friday, if you understand the language.

It was good fun (to a certain extent) to fly the big birds - but @ what price :confused: In my case the health of my child :uhoh:

Enjoy everybody!

[Doc Jekyll]

Varmint, yes there was a specific diagnosis. I won't bore you with the details, but if you are interested, google cross-reaction/ immunology. There are some really nasty bugs around., coming into the country by workers entering illegally who thus duck health-control.

And these air-conditioning systems are perfect for evenly spreading anything.

You are right though that other places might not be any better, as I stated in my first post.

In this case, however, it definitely was Dubai. The Gulf is unique in that you need air-cond for at least one third, if not three quarters of the year - in your house, your car, your favourite shopping mall. Other funny places on earth just have the good old ceiling-fans which I would defintely prefer.

If you google the scientific names of mould which I mentioned earlier in this thread you will find symptoms which are in line with what people are complaining about all the time, starting with cronic fatigue. Maybe the management-guys and their fatigue-computer-models are right: it's not the tough rosters but the exposure to toxins which deprieve you of all the energy you had back home.

What makes me really sick, tough, is the fact, that I hear more and more about colleagues who have serious health problems in their families - from mould growing in their sinuses to intestine-cancer. :yuk:

Again: could happen anywhere.

[Nedra89]

It's just a goof answer :D
Some people are never satisfied

[Do-27]

Dear collegue Thexman,

We all know you are mostly right. Why it took you give years to write down this post...?:=
After 10 months you could easily realiced it....
Some people is even clever and know whats going on over all those countries,not just in business aviation,before star thinking into joining the sandpit...;)

Gracie mile for your advise!

Safe flights!:)

[pole shift]

Its all a matter of how did your lifestyle has changed after moving to the sandpit. If it did to the better then its all good:). If however it didn't, then everything will matter, small unimportant things will look frustrating, and life along with work becomes unbearable. And then it is decision time, a bit more difficult this time, compared to decisions from our proffesion. Others put up with it, others can not. And definetely there is not right or wrong here. What the heart tells must be done, and stick with that decision with no regrets.

[pythjet]

I am going to be writing about the EK work experience and living in Dubai soon. It will not be about the stuff you expect, but rather much deeper look at what is going on and why it happens and the driving forces behind it.

[Alloy]

Well from what I've read and learnt from speaking to friends in EK, I'm glad I withdrew my application. Just from a far I know people who are leaving or want out of EK.

[Monarch Man]

nsiotto
This message is hidden because nsiotto is on your ignore list.

Ahhhhhhh, thats the way to deal with stupidity :ok:

[Nikita81]

I got a job today. At the Serbian airport Nikola Tesla. Well, it's not a job, but rather a training of two months. They advertised it as a job, though. They also asked for highly qualified people (faculty, master), grade average above 8.5 (out of 10. mine is 9,5). They gave me 200 euros salary and a job of a security at the gates (they never said what the job was until they called the chosen ones for the meeting). And we have to provide our own uniforms. :} Seems they've learned a lot from their eastern friends.


Ok, Serbia is a banana country and I am broke. Still, I've refused the job. Nobody will appreciate you if you don't appreciate yourself. The irony of the whole story is that that airport is called by the scientist who would remain poor, unknown bloke, if he hadn't fled to USA. A disgrace for that great name.


After reading this whole thread, I have two messages:

If you don't have experience on some subject, don't talk about it (that much). It's rude and offensive.

And I already wrote the second one:

If you don't appreciate yourselves, nobody will.

[Alconguin Crusader]

If Emirates is such a great airline than why haven't we received a significant pay raise in years?
If it is such a great airline why do they constantly lower their pilot recruiting requirements?
Why have 14 pilots left this month and over 100 pilots year to date have left for greener pastures?

[fatbus]

The 100 that you refer to is including even those that are retiring. Greener pastures - read rice fields for some.
There is always an increase number leaving post bonus .
100 to date might total 200 for the year , personally my guess will be 150 -175. 3.37% - 5% . Bean counters deal with numbers and won't get excited about those.
Sky is not falling as some would like to believe

[TangoUniform]

To me it's simple fatbus. Leave not apportioned to what it was five or more years ago. Flying 90+ hours Month after month, year after year. Massive CC resigning before their contract expires. And now a five year bond for new joiners. And this all from an airline making record profits and also oil (fuel) at record low $$s. Either those in charge are either psychopaths or the wheels indeed falling off and doing the above to stem the tide of a pilot shortage. Your choice what to believe, fatbus.

[Monarch Man]

Fatty, believe what you want, annualised recently the attrition rate was close to 11%, its normalised now a bit north of 6% no ifs, buts etc, the numbers are out there.
Combine this with the lack of quality candidates, note the continued reduction in entry requirements and the fact that 90+ hours per month non factored, no ULR and no leave means one thing.
Please also be aware that FLT ops are making weekly visits to the authority pleading for 1000 hrs with factoring, only to be told sorry, and it IS a weekly visit at the moment.
Yes, all is good, no one is losing any sleep :ugh:

[paokara]

Is he the American from the Appalachians Ex Usair TRI at EK correct?

[donpizmeov]

Typhoon pilot is a gent. He was a great fella to work with.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Second that one Don!

K

[You rock]

Gents

Question have a few posts been deleted on this thread or is it just me again being delusional

[You rock]

In particular

Nsiotto posts and mine for that matter. I do remember some banter from yesterday from sops as well

[fatbus]

For those who are interested,
Pilot hired July 2014 has moved up @ 140 spots on the list.
@3500/3850, crew level should be 4000.

[north flyer]

Not sure which thread this should be on since they all seem to get mixed up, but here goes.

Was talking to my neighbor a few days ago, he works for Ek in finance, been at Ek for about 4 years.

He said that EK is losing money and he can not figure it out.

He said that the yields are why down, we started talking about PRASM's, RASM's and CASM's and all the usual stuff, price of oil, economies of the world, competition from other carriers.

I then asked him what the average aircraft utilization was doing, had it gone up, stayed steady or gone down, and you know what he said, "they do not tell me that", I could not believe it.

Seems that the only answer is that the aircraft utilization is down from lack of crew, I don't know what it was before this whole mess started, but I am guessing that EK had one of the highest in the world, now reduce that by just 1 hour per day and costs go thru the roof.

They have not been able to add the required number of pilots to the number of aircraft received, but we all know that.

It is just simple math that they hide from their own people, let's see what they do next.

[Tourist]

There is an obvious question.

If Emirates is so bad then why are you staying?

There are plenty of jobs out there for experienced guys.

Is it perhaps for the same reason that so many still want to join?

i.e. Emirates may not be all it was but its better than elsewhere.

It is asinine to mock those trying to join whilst at the same time you stay.

[polax52]

Anyway back to the thread:

If you're an F/O the options are thin and Emirates does appear to be a good choice.

If you're an experienced Captain the world is your Oyster and there is no reason to go to a company like Emirates and nor is there any reason to stay at Emirates.

In my opinion, young fit Captains should be looking at China because pay is excellent and rising. Conditions are generally selectable in choice of contracts. Example of rising pay is ACC who have gone from a flat $16k per month a couple of years ago to a flat $23k now. You can go home for a week each month as well.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Would agree with most of what you say about China, Polax. Something to throw into the mix is the incessant changing of contract terms each month… although at 23K for 30 days work, it certainly makes it all a bit more palatable!!

Kap

[polax52]

Would agree with most of what you say about China, Polax. Something to throw into the mix is the incessant changing of contract terms each month… although at 23K for 30 days work, it certainly makes it all a bit more palatable!!

Kap

Well in my experience with the Chinese majors I.e. Air China, Air China Cargo, China Southern, Shenzen etc, they stick pretty well with the contract, the money is in the bank every month. They also try to accommodate your needs e.g. to operate LAX flights.
The downside is the medical but if you're under 50 and fit it should not present a problem. Normally you don't fly more than 80 block per month, and that is all double crew.

[Stone_cold]

White Knight , for someone who is often very critical of others , the comment from another thread on VAT ,

nsiotto. I don't have any electoral rights here so why should I pay any form of tax here in Dubai?

is one of the most uneducated , idiotic statements I have read anywhere in a long time . Much less from a EK professional commander , who has international wide body experience with intimate knowledge and mastery of EK's uniquely challenging network .

Maybe you should stop looking down from your high cockpit at everyone else .

Just saying ..

[FlyingCroc]

I spent almost 12 years in the sandpit. Can I recommend it? I don't know. When I came here someone told me you will have to carry 2 buckets, one full of money, the other one full of shyte. It seems that the brown bucket gets slightly fuller and maybe it is time to go.
Nice new shiny jets, great destinations and layovers, ok salary but a sad place to live your life. Hot, dusty, poor laborers toiling in the sun, toxic air, polluted sea, horrific traffic and driving, stupidity and ignorance. Be prepared to spend a lot of time with superficial expat-friends. Money, cars, expensive and costly lifestyle, especially if the wives leave their husbands for several months during the summer.
There really must be greener pastures.

[Kapitanleutnant]

There are thankfully………

Asia, North America and Europe are hiring with Asia and North America going full steam ahead. Emirates is the best training grounds for ANY other airline to come and do a roadshow and cherry-pick

K

[White Knight]

Stone_cold old fellah... It was a simple question! We were 'sold' the tax-free lifestyle... I really cannot see how that is looking down at anyone from my high and mighty cockpit!

Is your other name Dragana?

[Nikita81]

I think White Knight is in love with me. :) Why else he would be so rude to mention my real name on the forum where everyone else is anonymous? Never underestimate my abilities to find out your real name, WK.

[vfenext]

Why else he would be so rude to mention my real name on the forum where everyone else is anonymous?
Rude? The dogs in the street know who you are, mostly as a result of you courting publicity for your dismissal from EK. FYI you are regularly the subject of ridicule during discussions on Galley FM.

[cactus98]

Err.....if anything, you just exposed yourself Nikita! At no point did WK equate the name Dragana with Nikita. You did.

[Nikita81]

Vfnext, sorry chap, I find you so uninteresting and dull that it's really a waste of time to talk to you. If you know that I am talking to everyone here, even with those who ignore me, then you should know what time is it. Carry on with your trolling job here and avoid me, otherwise you will be collecting your balls around the court again. :)

I don't hide my identity because I have it. Nevertheless, I thought that it is a matter of culture and respect not to mention each others' names. Seems that WK is a peasant boy, suffering from some sort of nobility complex which is why he called himself a knight. Vfnext at least knows that his place is in the horse barn. :)

[AllDaysAreSchoolDays]

We all should treat Niki like that oh so irritating ex girlfriend: Completely ignore her and she will eventually get bored and move on. :ugh:

[Nikita81]

Completely ignore her and she will eventually get bored and move onIs this what you are doing with your professional and personal dignity, as well?

[jack schidt]

Damn annoying that I have to login to prevent seeing some people post on here. If names are not to be used then my suggestion would be to just call her "Boomerang" because no matter how hard you try to keep throwing "it" away, it just keeps coming back!

Back to the topic please

Jack

I am starting to understand why she is not working in the Middle East anymore and my sympathy about her plight has long disappeared. Please move on "Boomerang"

[Nikita81]

Did I ask for your sympathies, Jack?

You just continue to feel sorry for yourself, that's the only thing you are capable of. :)

And I am starting to understand why you are still working in the Middle East.

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Guys, I realize this is a serious topic. I am not taking sides, but for [insert deity here]'s sake, show some respect for each other.

[vfenext]

So we all understand just why Dragana was fired now. An irritating irrelevance.

[QCM]

Simply return to initial topic will fix all deviating issues:ugh:

[Nikita81]

Funny thing, vfnext, while enjoying my coffee I clearly see you are trying to say something, but all I'm reading is some heehaw. :)


http://i61.tinypic.com/24l50tu.jpg

Now you have my photo, besides my name.

Simply return to initial topic will fix all deviating issuesI agree.

[AviatoR21]

And here is another reason to not apply for EK, having to work with these sort of jokers....

[keepitrealok]

Rumour is that last week a group of pilots who had their command coaching program rostered for September received an email stating it was cancelled, and will be re-programmed when they are within 18 months of a CMD slot. They have been with EK just on 4 years.

If you think they are not flying by the seat of their pants, and somehow have a plan set out, think again.

If you think they aren't going to attempt to hire DECs (on the 777 after unsuccessfully trying on the 330) think again.

If you think you aren't going to sit in the RH seat as a new joiner for at least 8 years think again. (ok, with the numbers now running to the exit doors this may not be true! :D)

If you are thinking about applying....think again. Long and hard.


(ps Nikita81 with each post you make here you come across more and more as simply a narcissist and a bore. The good work you initially did has long since evaporated. Please leave.)

[Callsign Kilo]

Are people applying? I mean, serious candidates? Not Jonny Jet Set and his shiney bretling, tinted aviators and Instagram lifestyle?

Two guys have recently come back home (uk) from a 3-4 year hiatus with EK. The stories make my stomach churn. They both consider their time a complete blight in their aviation careers and are happy to be back in the lo-co world. Says a lot about what Emirates has become. 😩

[Nikita81]

You should stop looking in the mirror when talking to me, keep. All I did was posting ONE message at the beginning. All you did was bunch of egoistic and rude posts asking me to leave. I am not your problem and nobody else is. The only problem you have is yourself. Stop whining and blaming others and discuss in a civilized manner. You want respect? Respect yourself first. Then respect others. Pilot license will not bring you any admiration or respect if you are a lousy human being.

My good work at least existed and it would be even better if you had helped me to do it. But you just come here anonymously, whine, insult and go. Good work you did never existed. So, who are you, keep, to judge someone's work? Do your own good work first, otherwise you will always be just another jealous, mediocre human asking people to leave the public Internet forum.

Actually, it's good that some of you show your real face in this dicussion and this is why I continue to reply - it's completely on-topic. A handful of Nazis used to keep imprisoned and to kill tens of thousands of people in concentration camps. Do you know why is that?

[flydive1]

Godwin's Law;)

[Eau de Boeing]

flydive....... :ok:

[fringhtok]

The 'rumour' about four-year pilots and an email cancelling coaching until within 18 months is fact. 777 commands are now officially (email is from DCP Boeing- SP) predicted to be greater than 5.5 years. Choose wisely.

[Cloud Bunny]

Which email would that be then? I've not received anything regarding commands, although a few trainers have recently alluded to the fact that they have been delayed until the new year while they embark on this latest recruitment drive.

[TineeTim]

The email is only to the individuals concerned. This is fleet telling guys who have been here four years that they are more than 18 months from upgrading.

[keepitrealok]

Post #120.

It's so amusing that such a rant can be drawn from a little comment in parentheses. Nothing else that I have ever written has been about you N81.

Hate to disappoint, but I hold more qualifications than 'just' a pilot's license. And I have used them in a range of industries as well.

Well, my suspicions were confirmed.

Fly, fly away little miss self-absorbed......

[Cloud Bunny]

The email is only to the individuals concerned. This is fleet telling guys who have been here four years that they are more than 18 months from upgrading.
Okay, I'm 4 years and 2 months. No email. Does that mean I'm immune to the delay?!! Just sent it out to the whats app group, all 4-4.5 years and none of us have had any communication in any form from Fleet or anyone else. Could it be only for guys who have interviewed??

[Nikita81]

Hate to disappoint, but I hold more qualifications than 'just' a pilot's license. And I have used them in a range of industries as well.
And I AM self-absorbed? :)

No, no, little guy, I meant: what good work did you do for others? Work you do for your own and only your own benefit in a range of industries doesn't count.

I don't give a damn about your suspicions or your qualification of my work. :)

I am not the one who's flying, last time I've checked.

[sluggums]

Sorry Nikita,

For many months I've read your well considered and well thought out posts. You've brought to light many of the issues that affect this part of the world. BUT, i and many others are growing tired of your 'I'm never going to let my life issues rest' ranting and feeling the need to take up a crusade at every opportunity.

And posting pictures of yourself on Pprune... Really! Get the chip off your shoulder, please, for your own sake and to enable yourself to move on.

Sadly you're now on my ignore list.

[TineeTim]

Bunny,

Sorry, it wasn't clear. The email was sent to a group of guys ,all of whom are around the 4 year mark. They had the Command Coaching course scheduled. The email states that the coaching course is cancelled and will be rescheduled when they are within 18 months of an upgrade course.

[Nikita81]

I will repeat: I am not your problem and I am not here for you.

My posts were "well considered" while I was talking about EK. As soon as I started to write that your biggest problem is within yourselves, you don't like my posts anymore. :) Sorry guys, I don't blame others for my problems and I don't whine endlessly. My blog was not about whining, it was about publishing other people's experiences with EK. I gave them the opportunity to do it, regardless of all threats I've got.

If any of you ever helped me or contributed to my blog or any other website which publishes EK's problems or helped any journalist, I would care about your opinion, but this way - most of you have no moral rights to talk about my posts, my attitude, my blog or my work.

I respect all of those check in and boarding agents, cabin crew, cleaners, IT guys, security, baggage agents and others who had the courage to write about their experiences. Pilots (not all, of course) are not at the top of my bravery list. I only respect Emirates Illuminati members.

So, sorry guys - no, I don't give a damn about your opinion, but I am going to use my right to leave an opionion on this forum, like it or not. You can ignore it or read it or answer it. That's my choice with your whining posts as well. And I choose to read them out of basic respect towards other human beings.

[Nikita81]

Get the chip off your shoulder, please, for your own sake and to enable yourself to move on. One more thing. I would gladly move on, but journalists write to me on a regular basis, especially in the last month. I got one e-mail from a journalist yesterday. Tell me, sluggums, would you like me to direct these journalists to your address? I mean, you are still working in EK. Why should I talk about working conditions in EK anymore? And all that for people whose only "good work" is to ask girls and retired pilots not to write on their forum anymore. Good work, indeed. Feel free to send me your contact details and I will send them to this journalist who wrote to me yesterday. You can even meet him, if you are flying to Rome these days.

I will listen to your advice and will gladly move on. I will never answer any journalist's request ever again. I will direct them to your precious forum and the profiles of sluggums, Dropp, keep, Eau, vfnext, white knight and jack. Then you will have the real opportunity to do some real work for the benefit of all.


Edit: apologies for double posting.

Edit2: sorry, I will not mention vfnext's troll profile to anyone. Too ashamed to do that. :)

[PGA]

Upgrades on the 380 cancelled till the end of this financial year for now, but under review on a weekly basis, in part due to a shortage of FO's, so nobody can be released for upgrade for the moment.

40 380 Trainers stood down from training to fly the line, due to a shortage of line captains.

With no fo's to release for upgrade and no trainers to train them...it seems like the company will have a bit of an issue. Training mentioned the plan for now is 777 DEC so that some current 777 cpt's can transfer across to the 380.

[Cloud Bunny]

Upgrades on the 380 cancelled till the end of this financial year for now, but under review on a weekly basis, in part due to a shortage of FO's, so nobody can be released for upgrade for the moment.

40 380 Trainers stood down from training to fly the line, due to a shortage of line captains.

With no fo's to release for upgrade and no trainers to train them...it seems like the company will have a bit of an issue. Training mentioned the plan for now is 777 DEC so that some current 777 cpt's can transfer across to the 380.

Yeah that's more like what I've been hearing. Guys interviewing at the moment being told courses in the New Year. Not heard anything about DEC though, hope not but maybe inevitable.
Cheers
CB

[SOPS]

It seems to me that TCAS is walking away leaving one huge mess.

[kipper the dog]

So why not DEC 380? Got to be easier and more economic from a company point of view instead of training a DEC on the 777. Just so another 777 Captain can go to 380.

[Emma Royds]

380 DEC is a non starter as it was apparently vetoed by the deranged lunatic himself.

[GoreTex]

TCAS created more damage than Ed, so funny, they never learn

[JAARule]

Women pilots were a non-starter when I joined but eventually got the nod. Given enough pressure, 380 DECs will get the nod. Considering the rate this place is going TU, I give it 18 months, maximum.

[manfred42517]

Couple of months ago a friend did the EK assestment , he recieved the welcome mail from ek recruitment team You have been chosen to join ...bla bla bla , a month later another mail telling dear mr xxx mistakenly we send You a welcome mail , sorry about it and apologized if have been any inconvinience ...the good thing was that this friend the same week went to doha when he passed the assestment too , he ansewered them! thank you no inconvinience at all I am moving to Doha ! So expect the unexpected in EK !

[Flying738ng]

Woww that's weird..

[Iznogood]

No kidding! That could ruin someone's life! I thought it was more serious than that!

[sheikhmahandy]

Turn the screw, just press two.:D

[Mr Good Cat]

Couple of months ago a friend did the EK assestment , he recieved the welcome mail from ek recruitment team You have been chosen to join ...bla bla bla , a month later another mail telling dear mr xxx mistakenly we send You a welcome mail , sorry about it and apologized if have been any inconvinience ...the good thing was that this friend the same week went to doha when he passed the assestment too , he ansewered them! thank you no inconvinience at all I am moving to Doha ! So expect the unexpected in EK !

Yes.

Now imagine if that guy had handed in his notice at his current airline and couldn't retract his resignation...?

[The Outlaw]

If he was stupid enough to resign any job to come here then he deserves to be unemployed.

The word about this place has been out there for years...its just people refuse to believe it..I mean what do any of us know? We've only lived it for the past 8 years.

Big shiny jets..at any price on any condition...and those 24 hour layovers in Washington......oooohhh! Mind you I always liked London...always so nice in security there!

On the other hand I'd say to anyone interested in coming here...please...please give up your job in your country so that I can go there as a DEC and fly where the seasons change, the sky is blue, water is clear and there are a "one size fits all" set of rules...but I'm a sadist so I like that sort of abuse! Who needs a job at a western major anyway when you can have all that this place has to offer? Come now...don't delay as these positions won't last...they'll be filled quickly and by people smarter than you who have seen the light or perhaps spoke directly to HH the Tartan Guy!!!

Plus you'll fly new(ish) big Big BIG planes full of happy travelers...hell, its just like the "Love Boat"...or was it Costa Concordia? Anyway it makes no difference when you're living in paradise!

[Nikita81]

Hahah! :} You are the king, Outlaw. :cool:

[Iznogood]

Unfortunately not everyone comes from The Western World. Somewhere in this earth some guys may experience harder conditions than in EK so if they wanna join EK would you blame them for that?

[cheaptickets]

Nikita,

I really wish some of the machos commenting here had the guts to speak up like you do!

Thanks

[Nikita81]

As I understood Outlaw, he is not blaming anyone. He's just criticizing those who still expect more, even after reading about conditions in EK. You are talking about completely different issue, Iznogood.


Signature:
Outlaw's lawyer

[Iznogood]

Thank you lawyer, All clear! :)

[littlejet]

I said it before and I ll say it again. Calling someone stupid for their decision which you do not like is unprofessional and makes information on this forum irrelevant. You made a decision years ago to join EK. How would you feel being called stupid then?

Say the guy is single 26 and on atr72 having an opportunity to transfer to a jet, upgrade by 35 and spend 10 years among 20k+ cabin crew his age and move on to wherever he wants with a 10 years tax free cash, is he stupid? Not for me.

Ms. Nikita, lawyer/pilot, you went and made your case public when someone made you unemployed? Did anyone from work called you stupid?

[ExDubai]

If I would be in the mid 20s and single, the 3 large ME carriers would def. an serious option to consider. Having a wife and children, the picture looks different.

[Fire Ball XL5]

And those with Blinders on... continue to apply.... GFL:ugh:

[ExDubai]

Fire Ball in the mid/end 20s the picture looks different then with 40. in the other hand, for certain colleagues the deal with EK is still way better then what they get in their home countries. Yepp people will continue to apply, the big question is do they get enough people which fit into their mould. I doubt it...

[Fire Ball XL5]

ExDXB.... Time will tell. Thankfully... I'll be long gone, leaving my seniority number for some other chap to deal with!

[Nikita81]

Ms. Nikita, lawyer/pilot, you went and made your case public when someone made you unemployed? Did anyone from work called you stupid?
Nobody had to. I called myself stupid for rushing into the situation without exploring it.There was not much about ground staff working conditions on the internet, though. Some of my passengers called me stupid, but they were crazy so they don't count.:}

But let me tell you one thing: I would rather like EK managers to call me stupid (I would resign on spot) than torture me with suspension, embarrassingly low salary, taking away my dignity and personal value and treating me like stupid while pretending to manage a modern company with western (and, therefore, civilized?:ugh:) management and persuading me that there is something wrong with me and that I should be grateful for the opportunity to work for them.

Lighten up, guys. :)

[The Outlaw]

Littlejet,

Wow...we ARE sensitive aren't we?

Would you feel smart or stupid if you resigned your job to come here only to be told that "whoops, we made an error and actually don't want you now" then be faced with not being able to get your old job back? OK, for you I'll call it a smart decision then...yep...REAL SMART!

You have the rose colored glasses firmly in place it seems.

So tell me, do you actually work here or you on the outside hoping to get in to fly those big jets 120 hours per month (its coming) and have your way with 20K+ cabin crew? Don't worry about longevity or spending the money you made because your health won't last to 60 here.

So, to quote you, "say" eventually one or more of those 20K+ cabin crew will present you (or your wife) with a baby or the video of making same to be presented to wife or the police, then the money is irrelevant because either the wife or your "special friend" gets it all or you find yourself married to a girl (and her family) from a country you can't pronounce. Don't think it doesn't happen, I know 2 personally.

When I came here years ago, I was called "crazy" for leaving the job I had. At the time I was a little insulted by the statement but still thought I had made a good choice. Then about 4 years in I realized the many things I never thought about and what I truly gave up at home. I have a wife and kids so my decision affected them as well although there are some pro's here for kids, there are a lot of con's as well. Lastly, if you actually think having left seat EK, EY etc. on your CV means that you can saunter into any job then think again. If anything it actually works against you in some cases especially the 380.

Today I call myself stupid for the decision I made then. I only wish I had considered more of what was written here and listened to those who were actually in "the know".

Life is not all about 20K+ cabin crew and jets.

[SOPS]

Like my next door neighbour in Dubai, who left 1 week before me. He lasted 3 years and 3 months. When he resigned they even contacted him and gave him a date to commence his upgrade.

He said to me, " I don't care, I just wished I had listened before I joined. Everything I was told is true."

He came from Ryanair, he went back to Ryanair.

[Wizofoz]

SOPS,

If you hadn't been in a position to retire, where would YOU have gone?

[Neptune Spear]

Every single pilot at Emirates is in a position to leave or retire. When you factor what this airline is doing to your health and long term sanity you have to seriously consider leaving, now. You owe it to yourself and your family.

[ExDubai]

@Neptune It isn't always that easy. Some stick to their bond, others bought property, etc. Leaving DXB isn't that easy like for instance moving from central Europe to another country. I still remember the nightmare dealing with the different banks to get those stupid clearance letters. And you need those stupid letters for a lot of things. Because it might be that you are coming back to DXB with your new airline. Making up your mind and decide to leave is nothing you do in a hurry.

[Wizofoz]

Plus it should be noted that Neptune stuck around until he got a gig with a US major- something even a lot of Americans are not getting.

Yes Neptune, all of us could probably get jobs as instructor at an Aeroclub- YOU could have left years ago to work for a US regional.

But you didn't, did you.

[Outatowner]

Wiz, whatever NS went to happened because he made it happen. Sorry but you are a known koolaid drinker. Instead of propping up a failing, corrupt, despicable corporate system why not accept that you could also leave any time you like. It may mean a pay cut and less big cars, beach clubs, brunches and boozy nights out or whatever your thing is but that's life in the real world. This is not the real world but people get themselves hooked on it. Find the next job, leave and adjust back to the real world conditions.

[Neptune Spear]

Wiz if you want a job as a flight instructor go ahead and get it but why stay at a company that is dong serious long term damage to your health and family?
When I noticed what EK was doing to me I did something about it and you are blaming or ridiculing me for that!
There are so many jobs out there. U.S. Majors are hiring 100 pilots a month (I know you need a Green Card) Turkish, China, Korean, Saudis, Japan and many other jobs are out there and all of those pilot jobs fly a lot less hours than Emirates even though some pay less.
I'm leaving with some time left on my Bond but I don't care. I intend to fight it but you know how these people operate. So yes Ex Dxb it might be harder for some to leave but those are just minor hurdles that some pilots use as excuses to justify them staying all the while their health goes down the toilet and their wife files for divorce.
Is it worth it? As the resignations pile up the answer is becoming effident. Who is staying and why?

[Dookie on Drums]

In my case I would say do not apply but my situation is different from anyone else's. It is up to one's circumstances at the end of the day.

I unfortunately fell for the trap the recruitment team laid down for me promising me this, that and the other 2 years ago.

I had just over 8500hrs TT with 6,500hrs being on Boeing narrow and widebody aircraft at the time I was interviewed. During the selection process I felt great being buttered up by HR at every turn and of course I was very happy to be given a start date by EK.

As soon as I landed in Dubai it fell to pieces. Again, before I continue, this was MY experience.

No transport, waiting over an hour after a 15hr flight in the wee morning hours for some transport to my accommodation...."We appreciate you joining EK so we will fast track your allotted accommodation....you will be in a hotel for a maximum of 2 weeks!! True is our word!!"

Bullcrap. As soon as I arrived they had me booked in for at least 8 weeks. Not a problem for some but a problem for my circumstances and me. Again, this is my experience.

I came from a very decent and respected airline previously with a very good Check and Training background. I only left for EK for adventure and career progression. Things were evidently a mess from the word go.

On the first day: Who are you? Why are you here? Once that passed, I was sitting amongst other new recruits from around the globe. It became clear that some were VERY grateful to be sitting at the round table whereas I was happy but also mindful of my own attributes. I was the most experienced (arguably) there but I have also been very humble in life.

I happened to run into a chap from Brazil that day. “I was supposed to be on the B777 but after 3 days they changed me to the A330” You’ve been warned.

Then again, there was a guy on my course with only Airbus experience (5000hrs) and he was put on the B777! He never even saw the inside of a Boeing before!

The next few days were busy with the admin side of things…no one was really expecting us here and there despite our bookings from our schedule. We were excited if they were expecting us!

Unfortunately, nothing was prepared for my arrival. My details didn’t match the IT department, security,transport etc.

Furthermore, the Flight Crew Licensing division (or whatever they are called now) when they came to verify our Logbooks etc treated us with the utmost contempt. I am in my late 30’s and the eldest of our group and did not appreciate that one bit at all.

Funnily enough, the next day I was in HR completing some paperwork where I was pulled aside and asked my opinion of the previous day. I quickly noticed she had been sitting in the background in the previous day.

Not one to mix my words I told her what I thought about my treatment thus far especially from the day before.

She actually agreed with me while observing this behaviour.

Moving on,

Training begins…threats begin.

I honestly can’t remember if the guy was the Deputy CP at the time or whatever title he gets himself off of but to go around a table and query the hours of everyone and then with hand on heart then say he has triple the hours of me and how exceptional a pilot he was, it was sickening. I can go on but I won’t.

The training was ****e. I am sure it’s not the case in general but for me it was. Instructors under training with TRE’s half asleep not giving a frig about anything because they were retiring soon. I even had to pull the manual out to verify I was correct in arming the hydraulic pumps once given clearance to do so! Arguments between the trainee and TRE and us with regards to Memory Items! Some TRE's even told me with my experience I am better off going to Qatar. These are TRE’s telling me this whilst supposedly training me for EK!

ALL and I mean ALL questions were freely available to pass the exams. No study required.

Moving on….my check to line flight was a joke. Smooth sailing until my return to Dubai where my Capt intervenes as I am PF, takes over and makes a complete balls up of the approach resulting in a GA. I’ve been around long enough to know I didn’t need to be relegated of my control of the aircraft.

Flawless until then. I am then failed. Then called into the office on my day off for a please explain.

I actually do the polite thing and come in at my expense to attend this unusual tea and bikkies. Needless to say, I booked myself out of there and handed in my resignation. I am not big headed but I know what's right and wrong as I have been around the world.

I was gobsmacked at the obvious pitfalls and downfalls there.

Upon returning to my country I was then told that EK had slandered my character.

That was fine as my new employers ignored it but it told me what type of company EK were.

I am now happy being back home working for less money, but also having a lifestyle with my wife and children and flying 400hrs a year.
So, be wary. This again was MY experience so yours may be much better. Tread with caution and question everything that is said.

In fact, I am already approaching the media, publishers etc for a best seller. They have no control over me despite what their little minds might think.

[GoreTex]

Dookie,

I heard many similar stories, lucky you that you got out in time, this TRE did you a favor.

[Nikita81]

I actually do the polite thing and come in at my expense to attend this unusual tea and bikkies. Needless to say, I booked myself out of there and handed in my resignation.You have a spine, Dookie. My respect.

Upon returning to my country I was then told that EK had slandered my character.
You weren't the slave they've expected you to be. Smart new employer. Actually, employers all over the world should employ everyone who resigned or got fired from EK. It's a proof of their strong will, character and honesty.

They slandered me as well by terminating my employment for "misconduct". So, I've returned the favour. Glad to hear that someone else is considering the same option after their bad experience with EK. I've stopped blogging, but my blog is open for you and your story, Dookie.

[Ratherbdying]

Hi! I've read all you fellas had to say and sounds pretty much like the problems I have with my current airline, biding is a joke, we don't have a voice, we fly 90 hrs a month and aparently whatever is making the rosters hates humans. So I've been considering applying to EK for a while to fly the big jets and make more money (almost three times what I am making currently) but I would like to hear your advice. The situation is this, I am 22, I am 320 type rated and have over 2000 hrs on type, not married and would like to live the experience to fly around the world. I pictured EK as a modern Panam somehow and thought I would get to know around and to experience living abroad. I read that most of you are from the states or aussies and maybe you are comparing to your first world countries, however I fly in Mexico, the land of corruption and kidnaping and from my current position I have no chance to fly a heavy jet and comsidering that I make around 3000 dls a month(and gpoing down since my currency is not going well) EK seemed atractive.
It is, however, a big decision to drag my arse 15000 kms to th sandpit as you call it and leave my friends, family, house etc. This being said I would really appreciate an advise, I have a couple of friends flying there but the talked marvels abouth my current airline before I got in and started complaining the moment I signed the contract:mad:. Please let me know you thoughts!

[V1cutz]

I can assure you this place is not a modern version of Pan Am. It's probably going to implode like Pan Am did but in no way do they resemble each other in any other way. This whole heavy jet flying thing wears off rather quickly especially in this place.

[harry the cod]

At 22 years of age, you've got nothing to lose and potentially more to gain. Come over, give it a year or two and if you don't like it, do what what Dookie had the balls to do.....leave.

Make sure you get assurances in writing such as accommodation, fleet type, etc. Yes they have the contract to amend but all good ammunition if you decide they renegade on promises and you still have some bond left to pay off.

Harry

[ExDubai]

@Ratherbdying
22 years old, no wife and kids..... Harry is totally right, nothing to lose but much more to gain.

[Ifly_b737]

Ratherbdying:

I am from the same neck of the woods as you are, if you want an opinion from someone that knows how it is back home, do not hesitate on dropping me an email.

[donpizmeov]

Interesting to see this thread started in 2011.

[Ratherbdying]

I tried to contact you but I am not sure if my messages are getting to you, I am kind of new here. PM me if you can! Thanks!

[mach decimal 83]

Harry, please check your PM.

[Kestral00p]

Hi everyone!

I've been offered EK - however I currently work for a legacy carrier in the far east.. I am wondering what people now thing of the airline and if its worth jumping across?

I've heard mixed reviews and want to know what people think. I'm 25 and single- only been to Dubai a couple of times.. Appreciate the response,

Thank you in advance.

[SOPS]

And you have not read all that is on here? Some good, some bad.

[Fellowship of the drink]

I worked for a legacy carrier in the far east and I am sure you are aware how toxic the environment can be.

Emirates has degenerated to a level where I cannot distinguish between a far- eastern or middle eastern style of draconian management anymore. It used to be good here and there are some good things left, but the trend is not good.

The biggest problem you will experience here is fatigue from roster exploitation.

[Semaphore Sam]

Things get worse, then better. Life is cycles. When retention becomes less than required, things will improve, to where they will attract enough candidates, when they will again cut back. You can't fight it, just know it will happen, and act according to your best interests. Sam

[Reecey]

Kestrel. Just make sure you give it serious thought, it has good and bads. I have a family and would definitely not recommend it. The hours are getting silly and the expense of living inDubai are getting worse.

A friend of mine was just denied time off to go to his mother's funeral, 2 weeks after a previous death in his family because he had "already had emergency leave".
He left and went to the funeral and was demoted.

Not good.

[White Knight]

Demoted from what to what? Just out of factual interest...

[jack schidt]

380 to 777 I heard, very distressing that must be.

Happy Chrimbo to all.

Jack

[Dropp the Pilot]

Odd - I would have thought it would have been 777 to 380.

[Desdihold]

Droop and Jack,
Both of you have reached a new low with your comments regarding the loss suffered by a colleague.

I know first hand of an FO who was brought into the office just last year after he requested time off to attend the funeral of a parent,mjust a few weeks later his sister died suddenly.

He attended her funeral but was subsequently brought into the office regarding his lack of productivity, his lack of productivity was as a result of attending the two funerals.

It's also important to remember the emergency leave comes out of your leave (42 day bank ) initially but the the company will consider recrediting five days on the production of a death certificate

[olster]

Desdihold - I agree totally with you - it is pathetic to make cheap, tedious and uninteresting A/B jibes when someone has been refused compassionate leave - unbelievable really.

[donpizmeov]

I really do hope there is more to this. The only time EK ever looked after someone in the past was in situations like this. A very sad turn if this has changed.

[jack schidt]

To the fools who refer to me in their posts above. I made a statement of the "demotion given within EK". Nothing about leave or death or otherwise. It truly is sad that some fellow pilot had had to suffer these losses, I am sorry for them for that. However, lighten up, I never disrespected the gentleman concerned and if anything I brought a common "banter" issue to lighten things up.

This is not a bereavement forum, the question was asked about an aviation demotion and that was what I replied to nothing else. Now go get some Christmas cheer in a glass and chill.

J

[falconeasydriver]

I know of a current FO who is currently being put through the wringer thanks to his infants' serious and likely terminal ill-health. Second hand info suggests when he approached fleet he was given a flat refusal to leave Dubai to be near his child as they underwent treatment, it wasn't until he went over the heads of the estrogen fuelled oxygen thieves in fleet was he able to get home to be near his child in their last days.
I don't personally know the individual, but I know a friend of his very very well and I consider him an impeccable source.
If all the above info is accurate, and I have no reason to think otherwise, I'm quite frankly disgusted and appalled.

[in freedom]

If you are considering Emirates be aware of the lack of regulatory oversight and effective labour laws. Emirates operates its long-haul fleet with unprecedented "crew productivity" at a crew factor near 7. That is impossible to match for any major Western airline. And it shouldn't be possible. Well rested crews are the last line of defence when it comes to flight safety.
Emirates presently operates about 250 aircraft with about 3,850 pilots, some of whom are in training, in management or on sick leave. That equates to a crew factor of just over 7 in an operation that needs a lot of crews due to its long haul and ultra long haul nature.
Major Western airlines need a crew factor of somewhere between 11 and 13 for the same kind of operations. So it is very easy to see that Emirates pilots work a lot more hours and get a lot less sleep than their peers. This is a ticking time bomb for flight safety and crew health.
It is only possible in the legal environment of the UAE. Labour Unions are forbidden. The chairman of Emirates Airline sits on the board of the GCAA - that's the authority which regulates aviation in the UAE. The outcome is obvious. For example even the blatant malpractice reported in the WSJ on April 9, 2015 continues as before. Only a single piece of paper evidence has been removed from the process to cover it up. The GCAA didn't stop the unlawful practice but in fact helped to cover it up.
In my opinion Air Safety and Crew Health should be governed by an independent authority. If the UAE is unable to do so due to the nature of their legal system then it should be done for them. The FAA and EASA should demand a complete 12 month record of all pilot duties for any aircrew operating into their jurisdiction. The flight duty and rest periods should meet EASA or FAA standards. I am sure the passengers believe that kind of regulatory supervision already exists for the number one airline brand. It doesn't today.
From personal experience I have to warn you that if you ever do get into a difficult situation you are not just alone. The entire UAE is against you. In my case medical leave was denied despite the recommendation from outside doctors. The EK doctors agreed but told me they couldn't do it under their rules. When I tried to use contractual leave instead that was denied as well. In the end I walked out. The consequence has been that the company has kept my entire pension fund. I am also a wanted criminal in the UAE despite having paid every bill no matter how ridiculous, including 3 final telephone bills of which 2 were obviously a mistake. When I queried Dubai Police it took them 4 months of correspondence to confirm that they can not reveal the nature of the charges against me.
If you decide to go to work in the UAE you have to understand that you become subject to a legal system where a rape victim goes to jail. I hope that explains how upside down the place is.

Happy New Year from free Europe

[The Outlaw]

The idea of the warning letters for non-productivity is the "brain-child" of one of the fleet's chief pilots...I think we all know who.

The most effective way to get him "moved" to another position would be to send a copy of that letter to the editors of ALL the western papers with a brief description of the treatment of people in this company. I picture paints 1000 words and its not a fabrication, just statement of fact. I'll bet the US media would have a field day with it along with ALPA and the US3 vs ME3 case.

"Middle East Pilot gets the sack for going to mothers funeral" makes a good headline.

It should have been done a long time ago.

[jack schidt]

Several colleagues I know and myself received the mandatory email about how a pilots productivity is in question, even though the doctor has issued sick days and clearly we were unfit to fly in each case.

J

[Desert Busdriver]

All goodwill and assistance from fleet stopped the moment LL left the office over 8 years ago. Seen the good management style then but not since. Good luck to all and don't forget family first, dog second and company way own the list. Seen many guys suffer through torn marriages, health and happiness thinking they were doing the right things for the job and pleasing the company. Ended up in tears every time. :ugh:

[KippaLippa]

don't know why but I feel we need to keep this thread alive....

maybe it's just one of those moments.

Regards,

KL

[harry the cod]

"...after a few years and make my millions"

I hope you put a bit more realistic planning into your warm and sunny EU residence. Mind you, compared to Inverness, you shouldn't find it too difficult!

Harry

[positive stability]

Once again a close call and luckily there is no smoking hole in the ground. Once again management take absolutely no responsibility for being in any way part of the problem. EK was a great company to work for but is rapidly becoming a bit of a joke within the industry.

EK has dined on other company’s failings, they are happy to replace experienced staff with pilots about to lose their jobs elsewhere. They use this ethos to avoid maintaining a remuneration package that would attract experienced pilots. As a result the experienced pilots within the company leave, and the subsequent void is becoming ever more evident.

The downhill slide over the last ten or so years seemed to accelerate in the last few years when management were faced with a severe decline in qualified pilot applicants. Rather than address the problem a psychopath in senior management embarked on a new strategy of significantly lowering the requirements, along with a load of other budgetary cuts and silly shortcuts to get bums on seats including sackings if one did not agree with him. His minions had no choice but to go along with his crazy ideas and his boss let him because in the short term it was more bonus for him and his management team.

The deteriorating conditions (in many aspects of the overall package) subsequently ensured an exodus of very experienced pilots without a care in the world registered by the 9th floor, I’m sure they figured they were saving more money. 521 was swept under the carpet with more close calls taking place on the line subsequently, yet the cost of experience appears unquantifiable from a management viewpoint which seems set on operating in compartments with minimum cost being the sole directive from above.

The last few years has seen some irrational events happening on EK aeroplanes that in the past would have been unthinkable. Remember the planes haven’t changed, it’s the company management that has taken the decision of changing its working practices toward its staff that has led to the rest of the aviation industry questioning whether they would really want to work for such an airline. I thought things were bad when I left but according to a relative still there, it’s gotten much worse.

Good luck folks, stay safe out there.

[fatbus]

PS , could not have said it better myself !

[cerbus]

Reasons not join EK, too many to list here but the main one would be Delta is hiring

[jack schidt]

Airdancer, you hit the nail on the head, thank you for putting yourself forward. It's not the rosters "only" particularly that have changed in the last decade that has made EK a less desirable place to be at.

J

[ACP]

I was having a dinner in Dubai with 2 very good friends who are working at EK and they were both quiet happy. As they mentionned the guys that are not complaining are not wasting their time on pprune. It's certainly not perfect and they both agreed they are working a lot (especially on the 777). I am not sure EK is worse than any other airline. You can work at any airline in the world you will still be a slave anyway. At least you don't give half your salary to the government for nothing in return...lucky you 😋

[SilverSeated]

I was having a dinner in Dubai with 2 very good friends who are working at EK and they were both quiet happy. As they mentionned the guys that are not complaining are not wasting their time on pprune. It's certainly not perfect and they both agreed they are working a lot (especially on the 777). I am not sure EK is worse than any other airline. You can work at any airline in the world you will still be a slave anyway. At least you don't give half your salary to the government for nothing in return...lucky you 😋

QUICK QUICK....must get popcorn, must get popcorn

[ironbutt57]

quiet...or quite happy?

ya reckon the folks at AA, United or Delta and the likes are "working like slaves"?...even a large regional airline in the USA pays nearly as much, and even more when you take into account days off....maybe Air Canada guys work like slaves...doubt it..

[sluggums]

And they've probably only been here a short time? Eventually the place will grind you down. It's a gradual process...

[LHR Rain]

What was your previous Airline Airdance?
Are you one of these 1500 hr wonders who 3 yrs ago wouldn't be able to serve drinks or clean toilets on a widebody but now with the pilot shortage are flying right seat?
How times have changed. The majors don't work 15 days a month. It is a rare event when they fly over 10 days a month.
We get hammered and pilots here say it's an improvement. Give me a break.

[guts]

Stockholm syndrome. But then again, I'm a troll?

I know I know, but with out a union we're toast.

[777-200LR]

I don't have a letter of the word "T.R.O.L.L." in my name but that surely still makes me one? 10 years here and I haven't seen any improvement. I've missed more birthdays and anniversaries than guys on death row, the optimists will say that there's AVAs now that cover that....an improvement! :ugh:

[27k]

What was your previous Airline Airdance?
Are you one of these 1500 hr wonders who 3 yrs ago wouldn't be able to serve drinks or clean toilets on a widebody but now with the pilot shortage are flying right seat?
How times have changed. The majors don't work 15 days a month. It is a rare event when they fly over 10 days a month.
We get hammered and pilots here say it's an improvement. Give me a break.

Look at you, feeling superior to "these 1500 hr wonders" but wasn't able to join a proper airline yourself... :D

[LHR Rain]

EK was somewhat of a proper Airline when I joined and certainly better than the ****e low cost U.K. Airlines of today.
It seems you would like to join EK, hence the trolling.

[felixthecat]

Rosters have not got better in the last 2 years at all, in fact, worse.

I am always in the high 80s and even into the high 90s on occasion.
My months days off are usually 9 or 10.
I cant swap because the swap system is broken because of the extreme workload and restrictions placed on the pilots.
Leave months just compress the work into a shorter period.....

Now Airdancer with 4 posts to your name, how I as a TROLL have seen my roster improve!

[tripleslavin]

Not A Troll, but they won't listen anyway!

Rosters in last 6 months certainly got better for me. The Captains rosters that I've seen don't seam to have improved much but its not consistent.

Over all when you combine east, west short flights in between, I've honestly never been as tired in a job as this. I've flown 95 hrs with other companies and never felt like some of the days I've had here.

But if you don't like leave.......... I will thanks

[Trader]

Airdancer - the state of 'some' rosters have improved as pilots have approached yearly maximums and they have to be given less flying.

You case is also specific. You like ULRs hence your rosters are good. Not the case for everyone especially those who do not like ULR flying. If you are doing 90 hours plus every month it is going to grind.

I like the ULRs for the same reason you do. Some months though you simply won't get any!

Good luck swapping. I do a lot of swapping (trying) but find that unless you are swapping exact days it is almost impossible. Or I swap a period of 10 days to make it work. Both of you in OT - swap denied!

[Mach.888]

[QUOTE=Airdancer;9914857]

So your roster is so much better now?
Is that why you spend "a good 2-3 hours swapping " ?

That makes a hell of a lot of sense.

[PositiveRate876]

Then you are one of the few. I have seen my rosters change for the better and most people I ask are happier with the roster. I love the standard answer: "i'd love to complain but I can't at this moment".



6 posts and joined last month.
Either a new joiner on honeymoon, or a plant from the office.