Hug a pilot...BA

[avaitor]

"It transpires at SEP on the first day, BA have now introduced how to interact and socialise with the "Pilot community".

The session includes pre, during and post flight interaction, you will now be advised it's inappropriate and bad mannered not to include everyone on the crew and pilots whilst socialising in the bar or dinner down route."
:ugh:

[theshed]

To be fair in BA alot needs to be learnt. Can't be a bad thing that is unless it's the same old dragons teaching the same old bitter anti "one team" ethos.

"Why can't we all just get along"

[Hotel Mode]

Whats actually being taught in an ever so gentle way, is that if you dont engage as part of the team and the chain of command then dont expect to be part of the team. More to come on this with formalised briefing etc too.

Mixed fleet and LGW wont need this training. Just some elements at LHR.

[Tay Cough]

BA have now introduced how to interact and socialise with the "Pilot community"

Have you thought why this is considered to be necessary and why, by all accounts, it is apparently not needed in other airlines and even on other BA cabin crew fleets?

Rocket science it ain't.

[Teddy Robinson]

Dragons vs Dinosaurs ? ... shades of Shrek here !:)

[Captain Spam Can]

at least the BA pilots can now get some action on nightstops:}

[crewmeal]

t's inappropriate and bad mannered not to include everyone on the crew and pilots whilst socialising in the bar or dinner down route."


Don't the pilots stay at 'grander' hotels these days? Wow BALPA have come down in my estimation!!!!

[ExSp33db1rd]

Coincidentally I’ve recently been asked about ‘crew relations’ by some old ( in both senses of the word ! ) friends, and made the following comments – before I read this thread.

When I joined BOAC the captain never stayed in the same hotel as the rest of the crew, and had his own transport to the different abode as well. This meant that the co-pilot and engineer and radio office and navigator were much more integrated with the cabin crew as one entity, and there was little animosity between the two groups, the captains rarely spoke to anyone anyway, even their co-pilot, so it didn't really matter, and as a sprog navigator I was berated because I dared to address the co-pilot by his Christian name ! " We do NOT use Christian names on the Flt. Deck, MR XXX

Later the policy changed and the flight deck all moved to the same Hotel as the captain, which in my opinion was the start of the major gulf between cabin crew and flight deck; leaving our 'posh' hotel in Toronto one night - some may remember the Park Plaza, near that delectable eating establishment The Chicken Chalet - we bought some beer and took it to the crew party room (a room often set aside in hotels to prevent their guest rooms getting trashed by over enthusiastic crew ) in some hotel down Yonge St. to which we had been invited by one of our own cabin crew, but as we entered, the chief steward of another crew also present advised us that this was a cabin crew party and we were not welcome. I pointed out that at least we had bought our own beer and weren't drinking company liquor that they had taken from the First Class Bar, and had been invited by our own girls, who were prettier than his - and we walked out.

It was all downhill from that time, but of course I am going back 30 years, so who knows what happens today.

Just thought you might be interested.

Ex Flight deck.

[wheelie my boeing]

I feel it is totally innapropriate to post a small section of what BASSA actually published. Below is the FULL version!

"It transpires at SEP on the first day, BA have now introduced how to
interact and socialise with the "Pilot community".

The session includes pre, during and post flight interaction, you will now
be advised it's inappropriate and bad mannered not to include everyone on
the crew and pilots whilst socialising in the bar or dinner down route.
Isn't it remarkable that grown adults see the need to use up resourceful
time in SEP to enforce socialising with each other. Will they also offer
to pay for our lobster and brandies whilst out dining?

It is a shame a large swathe of our flight deck "colleagues" didn't
consider the long-term impact when they volunteered to do our jobs while
we participated in legal strike action to protect our futures.

Remember you are under absolutely no obligation to mix with these people
if you are off-duty and, if managers continue to be oblivious to the utter
disgust and contempt at the back stabbing and betrayal that went on last
year, then quite simply they should not be managers of people."


"These people"? My bold... Perhaps it hasn't occured to them that pilots often prefer to not go out with crew as there is this assumption that pilots should buy a round - totally ignoring the fact that in BA many crew earn more than many pilots.

[Basil]

you are under absolutely no obligation to mix with these people
if you are off-duty
I had no difficulty understanding that from the day I joined in 1973 until I left in 1997 however, it was never an issue.
If people wanted to drink/eat together then they did, if not, then they did their own thing.

"Hug a pilot" indeed! You don't know where it's been. (yeah, yeah, I know; you do, and that's the problem :})

Hope we're all happy campers on the 9 on Thu ;)

[vctenderness]

I was around in the days of Captains staying in separate hotels. However I don't remember Flight Crew being excluded from room parties at all.

In fact I very well remember the 'chaps' bring fresh supplies to the bash.

I also have great memories of pilots arranging activities for all such as going sailing, hiring cars (and mini buses) for trips out, going on a light aircraft flight with them flying usually arranged at the room party.:ok:

I thought this nonsense would stop by now but sadly some people would make their own life a misery just to take it out on the 'perceived enemy'.

please............:ugh:

[Dawdler]

It is a shame a large swathe of our flight deck "colleagues" didn't
consider the long-term impact when they volunteered to do our jobs while
we participated in legal strike action to protect our futures.

Might it be suggested that the flight deck were indeed concerned for the long term security of all BA's employees? That is why, together with admin, ground staff, engineers and loaders they sought to mitigate the actions of some selfish and out of touch CC.

[cessnapete]

Oh dear the same old vindictive BASSA Reps survive!

It is an unfortunate fact that a sizable minority of Lhr based cabin crew,LH and Eurofleet, perpetuate this anti team/flight crew attitude. Until natural wastage etc. removes them from the cabin crew comunity nothing much will change, also, often reflected in their attitude to their passenger customers.

Refreshingly Gatwick and Mixed fleet crew are almost unfailingly courteous and friendly to spend your day working and socialising.

[MissM]

BASSA is right that we are under no obligation to mix with certain people downroute. It's our own free time and we can do whatever we like with anyone we like. BA cannot tell us as to whom we should and should not interact and socialise with on layovers.

Respecting the chain of command is another issue. The captain is the captain, yes. The first officer is the first officer, yes. Just because I prefer to be with somebody else downroute doesn't mean that I'm disrescepecting them or the chain of command.

[Yellow Pen]

Looks like the same old miserable BASSA haridans stroking their egoes by telling themselves pilots care whether they come out downroute. Personally most pilots I know prefer it when they don't as it means we can eat in a decent restaurant without whinging about the cost, we don't get our ears bashed about how terrible Mixed Fleet are, we don't have to subsidise their drinks when we're on the local beer and they are on imported wine and you can split the bill at the end of the night without finding someones not paid. Still, it's interesting that BA have realised the BASSA hardcore need instruction in how to behave in a civilised manner.

[Dawdler]

I think your post sets out the position exactly. I suggest that this is what BA are seeking. The manager (Captain?) of any group of people will usually get more out of them if they adopt an approachable demeanor and a friendly attitude. However this does not necessarily mean constant social contact. The successful manager will strive to get the mix right.

[ExSp33db1rd]

vctenderness ......... the incident I referred to only happened to me once in such a noticeable fashion, and yes, I too took cabin crew flying, played golf, sailing etc. if the opportunity arose, but when I occasionally popped my head around the door of the crew briefing room in the old Terminal 3 reporting office as I departed for the aircraft, and said Hi Gang ! or words to that effect, I was clearly stepping into restricted territory and was not welcomed - so I stopped doing that.

As to Flt. deck being expected to buy a round of drinks ..... in the days when we stayed in the old Pan Am resthouse in Trinidad, before the Upside Down Hilton was built, one of our Captains was chatting up a young PanAm stewardess in the bar, and she offered to pay for the next drink, he demurred, being an "Older Gentleman" - some were - and besides, he said, I earn more than you. Do you ? she replied, so they started counting, he said he did, but only just ! ( Circa. 1958.)

Strats. Were The Days.

Cheers

[Betty girl]

As usual, this thread is full of the same bitter posters on both sides of the devide.

I very much doubt that BA is asking anyone to go out and eat with each other, let alone hug a pilot! Exaggeration is always fun and reprinting it and moaning about misinformation is even more fun, for some on here.

I have found that most cabin crew and pilots still go out together as we always have, well on my flights we do! I have also had many pilots saying how hard it is to go out with Mixed Fleet crew because they spend most of the time talking about how poor they are and the pilots feel obliged to pay for their drinks!

I can well imagine why some posters on here find it hard to get the opposite group to go out for a drink with them and it probably relates to the fact that you seem to hate each other intensely.

Luckily there are many normal cabin crew and many normal pilots out there in the real world and most of us get on fine!

[finding_nema]

I think it just boils down to common sense and good manners surely, that it's polite when you get to your hotel if the entire crew down the back have organised to go out that you quickly mention it to the guys the other side of the flight deck door. Most will probably say "no" anyway, as they have their own plans or might even not be the sociable type, but the fact you've offered goes a long way in promoting CRM.

For example, my most recent European "tour" included a night in a city I used to live in. Cue hysteria in the briefing telling people of lots of lovely places to go, and that even if they didn't want to come, I was off! Flight crew were invited and although they didn't come for the day trip, we all had dinner together and all paid our own way. It just created a really nice and relaxed environment, which extended to the following day at work.

I understand there's a lot of deep rooted issues amongst people on both sides of the flight deck door from before I joined the airline, but I always find harboring grudges gives me ulcers. Would much rather have a sympathetic ear and a chat around the CRC or on the staff bus with anyone, regardless of job, fleet or rank and it makes me a lot happier to come to work (even when you're right Betty, the money can be quite tight!)

[A and C]

What a sad reflection on the state of a company this thread is, having worked for BA years back as an aircraft engineer I can remember being treated by SOME of the cabin crew as if I was a dog turd on their shoe but in this day and age I would have expected this attitude to have been long gone.

It is apparent that in some quarters this attitude persists, one can't help feeling pity for those who have such a narrow outlook on life that they feel they have to act in such a way. I can't help feeling that this attitude resulted in the decision to take strike action when BA was in a state if financial crisis, just about every other group of BA employees took some sort of hit in pay or conditions of service for the well being of the company and to secure their future employment and yet BASSA who represent the best paid cabin crew in the industry ( if not the world) would not give an inch.

I can only thank my luck that I fly for an airline were a night stop is seen as a chance for all the crew to have some fun and were the childish attitude of BASSA illustrated above on this thread has not even been considered.

[Betty girl]

A and C,

The cabin crew did have changes ( crew numbers reduced) and made savings for the company and also all new crew are on different terms and conditions.

Even thought these changes happened with BASSA fighting all the way they never the less have taken place and many would say that cabin crew have suffered more than many other groups.

It does not sound like you actually work for BA and as such , I guess you gain all your info from here. As for unpleasant posts, I don't think you can lay that at the feet of only cabin crew as looking back through this particular thread it appears that some pilots have not moved on either unfortunately.

As I and some others have said, many crew do go out together, it's just that this particular website seems to attract people from both sides that seem to enjoy causing trouble. Flight crew and cabin crew on ALL fleets do go out
together still. Only a few bitter people on each side don't and unfortunately,
lots of them post venom on here too.

I will also add that most crew have a great relationship with our engineers and your version of how cabin crew treat engineers seems very strange indeed! Sometimes I truly wonder if I work for a different airline to some of you because I have never seen anyone being anything but nice to engineers.

[A and C]

If you take the time to read my post you will see that I said I worked for BA some time back and most of the cabin crew were very pleasant to work with but as I said SOME were downright rude and considered themselfs some sort of superior race apart. If this had been one or two individuals I would have dismissed these people as being just strange however at the time this was a substantial minority mostly from long haul.

I can't say things have improved much after the strike. With the action being taken in the high court against BASSA following racist abuse and other harassment issues that have yet to run their full course in the courts.

I do observe the situation from outside BA but my information comes from sorces within engineering, flight crew, cabin crew and a few other sorces. While not wanting to pre judge the out comings of future events I do expect that most BA cabin crew will be embaressed by the some of the things that have been done by BASSA members over the last year.

[Betty girl]

Well you are obviously very welcome to your views but as you don't actually work for BA now, it's hard to understand how you can have such strong opinions about something you have such limited knowledge about.

I tend to treat people as I find them and not prejudge people because of the job that they do. I find that the majority of cabin crew and pilots are really nice people and it is a shame that people reading threads like this might actually imagine that we all hate each other because as I have said, the reality of working out on line is not like that at all.

[A and C]

The reason that I hold such strong opinions is that I the actions of a few BASSA members have put the jobs of a lot of people at risk and now the dispute is over they are intimidating and bullying people who did not hold the same opinions that they did.

In my days in BA engineering after an industrial dispute all of the staff and the union officials had a deliberate policy of "kiss & make up", this is not the message that some in BASSA are sending out.

I can't go into the cases of bullying from BASSA that I know about as this might prejudice legal action that may come to pass but I would stress that these cases are orchestrated by only a few people.

This bullying simply would not happen in all the other airlines I have worked for and the attitude of these people must be a CRM issue if not one of flight safety................fortunately they are a minority and don't reflect too badly on the BA operation as a whole.

[Betty girl]

:eek:Look A and C,

I am really NOT a BASSA supporter at all, far from it, but all this alleged bullying happened during the strike. Reading these threads and listening to some other posters on other sites, I can understand why you believe it is happening right now but it is not.

Most crew and pilots have moved on and I find it really strange that people that do not work for BA seem to feel they are experts on this matter.

The majority want to move on and the majority are getting on fine.

That is about all I am going to say on this matter. People can believe me or they can carry on peddling nasty half thruths all over the place. It's up to you.

I personally think that some people enjoy themselves so much doing this that they carry the nastiness on, even though the majority have moved on.

[Hotel Mode]

BG.

The point is that BASSA arent moving on.

They are not respecting the agreement they recommended to their members and themselves signed. I think that is worthy of discussion.

BASSA still (unbelievably) represents circa 10000 BA crew. Those members are responsible for their "representatives" actions. If those 10000 crew disagree with the BASSA leadership then they need to either make themselves heard or resign. Continually calling for everyone else to move on when BASSA produces yet another malicious and infantile statement (this isnt the only one this week) just doesnt cut it. If they didnt print the stuff we wouldnt be here talking about it.

(I know you arent a member BG)

[cloudn9ne]

Seems the bassa leadership never change. They have once again got their facts totally wrong and are attempting to derail what is actually a very good course.

I have attented the course. It consisted of about 6 pilots and 30 cabin crew. At no point were we lectured to on how to behave. It was an open discussion forum where we were asked what could be done to improve the working environment between the various groups.

The suggestions and points came from both pilots and mainly crew. No suggestions at all from the trainers.

The reason for the course:

Clearly there are hostilities and divisions within BA and this has now been accepted by a management team that have decided the best way forward is to be honest about the cause and to get both pilots and crew to sit around a table and move forward.

[Miss BA]

Hi Betty, Hope you are well.

I recently operated a trip and all the crew including our pilots went out for a drink.

One girl, who did nothing but winge about flightdeck all the way there refused to come out as the pilots were there.

She was quickly told by the CSD to stay in her room and mope if she wanted.

The bizarre thing is she commented on the way home how she hoped to get a flight deck jump seat on her return commute to Europe..

It beggers belief!!

[Betty girl]

Hi Miss BA,
Hope you are well too.

Yes there are a few that have not let go and it is sad but I find the the vast majority have moved on, just a few on both sides of the door carry grudges and it is a shame but I don't find them typical. Most don't even want to talk about it and just want to have a nice flight.

Unfortunately these people that hold grudges are the ones to be found spouting off on social networks ( us excluded of course!!!)and it does give the wrong impression that we all hate each other and that is just not so.

Most of us are just trying to move on and enjoy what is left of our jobs and make the most of our working lives. I still love my job and just wish that people on BOTH sides would just stop trying to aggravate each other.

Anyway take care and happy flying.

[LD12986]

Hotel Mode hits the nail on the head.

Remember the return of full staff travel was actually conditional on BASSA changing its behaviours and modernising its approach to industrial relations. One issue specifically highlighted was the need for BASSA communications to be more accurate and balanced than they have been.

There has been absolutely no evidence of BASSA changing its ways and there have been comms far worse than the one highlighted in this thread. And I doubt those who have seen these "we promise to get along in the future" agreements before are hardly surprised by it.

The fact is BASSA remains hugely influential over a large proportion of LHR crew so what's the company going to do about it?

[A and C]

I may be outside the company but I know people from inside BA who are getting the bullying treatment from those in BASSA, the way some people are being treated is cruel and intimidating.

The victims are the first to admit that this intimidation is from a small minority but when you can't go to work without fear of intimidation & bullying it has a very corrosive effect on people, I had lunch in a pub a week or so back with a BA cabin crew member who I worked with at another airline and this person felt that some of the BASSA types would stop at nothing to destroy their carreer.

I would like to say more but as this is likely to end in court I can't because of the legal actions pending, I am very pleased that you think that things in BA are improving I can't help feeling this is good for BA as a whole but if you are the target of the vindictive people in BASSA the picture looks very different.

I suspect that when the full details of the actions of a minority in BASSA are made public in court you to will be appalled by actions of some individuals.

As some above have said BASSA need to move on from this unfortunate episode, when I was in engineering after a three week strike both sides were keen to move on ......... Those running BASSA should be keen to follow this policy.

[Betty girl]

A and C,

We all know what action you are talking about and this is old news and relates to things that happened a long time ago now.

No one is being bullied in the way you suggest at the moment unless you think that this silly message from BASSA is bullying.

The way you write your posts and portray the situation sounds like you are rehashing old news. The reality of working for BA is nothing like how you portray.

If you are someone who does not work for BA now as you say yourself, all that you say is just hearsay. No doubt gleaned from other forums.

Most people want to move on now. Not continually rehash stuff from the past.

I agree with the sentiment that BASSA needs to move on and stop all their childish messages but posting them and going on and on about court cases is not helping anyone.

[TightSlot]

You do have to wonder a bit about the number of people on PPRuNe who appear willing (and who have the time and energy) to jump on the same old bandwagon, time after time.

BASSA, who apparently never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity have once again gone into print with infantile comments, having learned nothing of value from recent events: They are representative of a dwindling number of people who are determined to preserve an outdated lifestyle, replete with Spanish Practises for some of their members, at the expense of other workers in the company. They consistently attempt to do this with remarkable inefficiency. In a sane and just world, their own members would rise up in outrage at the raw industrial incompetence that those they pay to represent them choose to demonstrate so frequently.

This isn't news, or even new - Endless repetition doesn't make it so, or make it interesting. The BASSA dinosaur is simply behaving in the only primitive way that it knows how - It is already dead at the tail, but the message has not yet reached the small brain at the head.

The future of this troubled company (whatever that may be) lies with people such as Betty girl, and there are more of them than some of you know: Most humans do not crave unnecessary conflict and will go to great lengths to avoid it. The endless re-fighting of the same old battles by the same soldiers tends, inevitably, to dilute morale and suits the armchair warrior more than those presently serving.

Chill out folks - BASSA does another stupid thing just isn't worth your time and energy.

:)

[Dawdler]

I am sure that what you say is true in that these sort of thing happened some while ago. The fact that Bassa still publish the sort of comms today that is the subject of this discussion, proves that they are not adhering to their commitment to become more professional in their comms. These comms are taken as encouragement by the few that still believe they are always in the right no matter what means they use even today.

If the union are not complying with their end of the agreement, where does it leave the agreement?

[Litebulbs]

Its been a while and its only a ban..................

[ExSp33db1rd]

The bizarre thing is she commented on the way home how she hoped to get a flight deck jump seat on her return commute to Europe..

It beggers belief!!

I was once berated by a stewardess for refusing to guarantee her 'partner' the jump seat if it were necessary, they were both on holiday and she had a confirmed seat to get back home to work the following day, but he was on standby.

My wife was accompanying me, using a staff ticket that I had purchased, but she told me that there were 5 seats on the flight deck and so I could take my wife and her partner. I explained that I had a supernumary crew member under training, i.e 4 crew and my wife, but she was having none of that, her partner was also 'staff' so had priority over my wife - she said. ( 9/11 was but a gleam in someones' eyes at that time, airline travel was much less regulated )

In the event both got a pax. seat - no problem - but it was her attitude that surprised me, with people like that is it any wonder that opinions are formed ?

Who would you have left behind ?

[MissM]

I agree that definitely should BASSA keep their promise as to what they presented and encouraged to us members as to what to do. They have failed at some accounts, yes.

On the other hand, I, and many others, am very disappointed with many of our pilots who interfeared in our dispute by volunteering to do our job. Perhaps they should have thought twice before deciding to cross the line.

Glad to see that you are enjoying to work with MF and LGW unless the more experienced of us at LHR.

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

The cabin crew did have changes ( crew numbers reduced) and made savings for the company and also all new crew are on different terms and conditions.Betty girl, only partially correct. All the changes/savings had to be forced by BA - none of this was done done voluntarily or with any modicum of adult behaviour on behalf of BASSA. You make it sound like it was a gracious deferment on behalf of the cabin crew - it very obviously wasn't!

On the other hand, I, and many others, am very disappointed with many of our pilots who interfeared in our dispute by volunteering to do our job. Perhaps they should have thought twice before deciding to cross the line.Pilots? MissM, you fail to mention that the vast majority of those that became volunteer cabin crew (VCC) during the strike periods came from elsewhere in BA. What is more, most of those VCC were also members of Unite, in other trades (engineers, etc). Perhaps BASSA should have thought twice before embarking on a doomed-to-failure hissy fit. But thank you for highlighting the major problem you really have with all this - you just don't like pilots!

[Betty girl]

QUOTE""The cabin crew did have changes ( crew numbers reduced) and made savings for the company and also all new crew are on different terms and conditions.
Even thought these changes happened with BASSA fighting all the way they never the less have taken place and many would say that cabin crew have suffered more than many other groups."" QUOTE

Don't selectively quote just one sentence. As you can clearly see my following sentence did take account of the fact that BASSA fought the changes but they never the less have taken place and BA have made huge savings from one crew member off every aircraft, reduced purser numbers plus new entrants joining on lesser terms and conditions. I only mentioned this fact because one of our less well informed posters was suggesting that cabin crew had not made any contribution!

This is going to be my last post on this because this really is just a rehash of the last two years and nothing has changed. Same old, same old ! Same views and bigoted attitudes from both sides. I have moved on, I suggest you all do too and just ignore BASSA because that's what most crew do now anyway bar a few nutters!

[A and C]

You are just running away from the truth, the person I know (who I rated as one of the best SCCM's that I have had the pleasure to fly with) and a totaly reliable person has suffered intimidation within the last month.

This is not as you put it hearsay, you can see the fear in this persons eyes when they talk about going to work.

I have to ask you just how would you feel if it was you who was on the receiving end of this ?

BA has a problem with these BASSA pepole, it may be a very small minority but for the people who are subject to this intimidation it is a very big problem. I am sure that a less robust person without the support nework that is available to my friend could quite easily be driven suicide by the type of intimidation that has been exhibited over the last few weeks.

[Hotel Mode]

BASSA represent their members.

They represent 10000 mostly LHR crew.

If those crew feel their views aren't being accurately represented by BASSA then they can make those feelings known or resign.

As nobody seems to be doing either, it can be assumed that that those 10000 agree with the BASSA leadership.

[Hotel Mode]

As BASSA have sent the 'story' to the national press the 'nothing to see here move on' call looks even less convincing.

[LD12986]

Well done everybody. Well done.

British Airways cabin crew urged to 'hug a pilot' to encourage team building | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2054570/British-Airways-cabin-crew-urged-hug-pilot-encourage-team-building.html)

Shall we take bets on when BASSA will try to kick things off again?

I give them 12 months.

[ottergirl]

Well here you all are again, scratching away at old wounds. While the BASSA leadership are clearly deranged and clinging to the past it does them no good for us all to join in! Adding weight to their lunatic drivel will not encourage them to start behaving rationally. Someone has to be a grown-up so rise above it people!

As for improving flight and cabin crew relations, stopping this nonsense of different hotels would help! I heard that in DXB the two hotels are opposite ends of the city; may have been okay in BOAC days but surely common sense would dictate that the team that plays together stays together!

[Yellow Pen]

The crew already stay in the same hotel in DXB, and pretty much every other destination. I can think of only one destination on long haul in which the hotels are different, and lets not forget that the reason for different hotels is that BASSA accepted a reduction in the quality of crew hotels as a cost saving measure some years ago. The pilots did not as BALPA consider decent downroute rest a higher priority.

[TightSlot]

Well here you all are again, scratching away at old wounds

Quite So. The usual suspects having now been rounded up, we can put this one to bed.