Ryanair Repair Cockpit Window With Tape?

[craigmcintosh_2]

Hey all,

Just read on a couple of websites that a Ryanair flight was aborted because they tried to repair a cockpit window seal with some sticky tape.

Was wondering what the take on this is here. Are the press simply making this sound worse than it is (i.e there is some material that can be used to repair the windows that looks like tape), or have Ryanair really hit the bottom of the barrell this time and it really is just a bit of gaffer tape?

Passengers watch Ryanair mend jet window with TAPE | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3889521/Passengers-watch-Ryanair-mend-jet-window-with-TAPE.html)

Ryanair flight aborted after 'taped window comes loose' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8845223/Ryanair-flight-aborted-after-taped-window-comes-loose.html)

Here is the best picture I can find of this...

http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01396/SNN2406GX1_1396114a.jpg


Thanks

[fireflybob]

Usual press garbage!

All airlines use high speed tape in accordance with established procedures.

Obviously we don't know the full facts in this case but whilst I don't entirely agree with the business ethics of Ryanair I can tell you their maintenance is to the highest standards and well above the minimum required by the aviation authorities.

[BOAC]

As ffb says - speed tape, probably applied to protect renewed sealant from rain etc while it cures - not an unusual procedure. If it is any consolation, I had a big barney with BA in my time and refused to fly a 737-200 where the broken hinges on the leading edge of a largish access panel just in front of the engine was 'repaired' with same. I won.

[Basil]

Like fireflybob, I'll take a step into the unknown and risk confirming that high speed tape is frequently used to temporarily fair minor abnormalities on the aircraft or engine skin.
I doubt it would hold any significant pressure and I'm sure that is not what the engineers were attempting.
Unfortunately, it seems to have partially come off and started thrashing around.
(Must be an opportunity for the Prune wits there :} )

[Capetonian]

I don't think MoL would cut any corners, he is far too wise for that as he knows the press are waiting for an opportunity to knock the airline. Similarly, he knows that if an incident were proved to be down to a maintenance failure, the press would make a banquet out of it.

I despise their business ethics and I would not fly on them, but I'm confident that their safety standards are high.

[Anansis]

This seems like a non story which has been whipped up into a big deal by the media. However, given Ryanairs past form for shameless maipulation of the media (think 'fat tax', charging for loos, standing only flights), I do find it slightly amusing that they don't seem to want to comment on this issue...:E

[Dani]

Reminds me when my ship (a Fokker F100) was in the newspaper because we seemed to have repaired our "windows" with "duct tape" so they could not fall out... :ugh:

In fact this so called high speed tape is used to cover the silicon gel around the windshield. This is a standard procedure when you have to replace the windshields. Just screwing them in would not help, because they are not waterthight, so you apply some sealant around it. Before it dries out you cover them with the tape.

So far, so good. Again a newspaper headline without a cause.

[Lurking_SLF]

Figured this was blown out of proportion....

Have to say though the term "High Speed Tape" always brings on a smile..

Does it have go faster stripes?? Have to have tie-downs when stored???

:p

Some great examples (http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Passengers-surprised-to-see-tape-patching-planes-91567634.html?gallery=y&img=0&c=y)

[jackieofalltrades]

A non-event blown out of proportion be sensationalistic and lazy journalism. Contradictory statements given by the passenger interviewed, and the Telegraph reporter using The Sun as her source of information.

Like is commented above, I despise Ryanair and MoL's business ethics (or lack thereof) but am sure they do not cut corners when it comes to maintenance procedures.

[cwatters]

Even has it's own wiki page..

Speed tape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_tape)

[Adhemar]

after first trying with some Pritt glue stick ... :p

[Teddy Robinson]

agreed with the above ... press sensationalism yet again, BUT once upon a time I was presented with an RJ100 with a C panel taped neatly shut to stop it leaking .. erm that's the cockpit emergency exit guys !!.
Tape removed, we flew back for a new seal to be fitted.

[cwatters]

Who is this idiot?
Former pilot John Guntrip said: "This could have been disastrous, the pilot could have been sucked out mid-air if the window had come off."

Does he not know the 737 glass is being held in by pressure and it wasn't actually the 'gaffer tape' that keeping the window in place?!

Apparently also a former Air Accident Investigator. Perhaps in an age when windows were fitted from the outside.

The BBC had him commenting on the Hudson river incident...

BBC News | FORUM | Air accident investigator Captain John Guntrip (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/forum/1653562.stm)

[SID PLATE]

John Guntrip was a Britannia Airways pilot. He once turned up to position on another carrier wearing shorts and sandals, sporting the longest toe nails I've ever seen.
He wasn't much liked by the F/O's who had the misfortune to fly with him.

[craigmcintosh_2]

Thanks for all the comments and replys guys.

As someone whos not particuarly involved in the aviation industry, but has an interest in it I was just wondering if how serious this was / wasnt. As as it appears from the answers ive been given, it wasnt.

[red 5]

Apparently also a former Air Accident Investigator. Perhaps in an age when windows were fitted from the outside.

Most windows are fitted from the outside, certainly on the 757,767,A300 & A320 series of aircraft i've worked on.

[oxenos]

I can only recall one incident in which a Captain was very nearly sucked out of a window, and it was not with Ryanair.

[Dani]

Maybe the guy (former accident investigator) still had the BAC 1-11-incident (captain blown out of the window) in his mind.

[IFixPlanes]

737NG:
The gap between a new Cockpit window and the frame must be sealed due to aerodynamic reason.
Cure time can be several hours so Boeing gives a solution in its AMM:
... If you must send the airplane before the sealant is fully cured, install Scotch 425 Aluminum Foil Tape, G00291 on the top of the sealant. ...
"Scotch 425 Aluminum Foil Tape" looks like duct tape and is known in the aviation as high speed tape (http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Marine/Home/Products/Catalog/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECIE20S4K7_nid=908T5PC12MbeN4BX5SJJFCg l).

[Load Toad]

So I could use it on my old car & it'd go faster?

[rh200]

I used to use duct tape in the mines many years ago to bodge up (opps I mean repair:p) all sorts of things, used to get all manner of stick for it:{. I'm glad there's an aviation equivalent, makes me feel all warm and fuzzy again:E.

p.s I know you guys wouldn't bodge anything and would only use it in strict accordance to manufacturers policy;)

[IFixPlanes]

o I could use it on my old car & it'd go faster?
Yes, it improve also the speed of a car by 5 - 8 %. But without connection to an 115V AC System (and i do not think your car is fitted tith this) you have to cover 92 - 95 % of the front- and side windows. If you cover less than that, you only get a hypothetically speed increasement which only have influence to speed traps. (e.g.: missing of 80% covering increase the speed trap indication by 80%)

[visibility3miles]

cwatters From the story you reference about Hudson River:
what may have caused American Airlines flight 587 to crash shortly after takeoff from JFK airport
Actually, I'd call it the best controlled ditching I've seen on film. Better than I could ever do with anything.

[Apologies. Thread drift.]

[david1300]

aaah - Duct Tape (or High speed tape) and WD40 - the only 2 tools you will ever need. If it moves, and it shouldn't, stick it in place with duct tape. If it doesn't move and it should, give it a squirt of WD40:ok:

[bigjames]

american 587 was not the hudson river ditching...

[howiehowie93]

I can only recall one incident in which a Captain was very nearly sucked out of a window, and it was not with Ryanair.

A BAC1-11 windew fell out nearly sucking out one of the pilots.

Became the topic of consideration for fatigue of Maintenance Engineers as they put screws in of too short a length during a night shift. There were lots of other safety factures too. The CAA Human Factures Course Modual 13 that was, covered it in great detail when I took the course at Kiddlington.

[cwatters]

american 587 was not the hudson river ditching...

Sorry for errors in my original post. Written in a rush.

[d71146]

I echo fireflybob's comment.

[oxenos]

Howie - yes, of course I was aware of the details. I was making the point that it was a genuinely serious incident, and it was not Ryanair. I'm sure we all know which airline it was.

[Flightmech]

Howie,

I believe it was worse than that. Nearly all of the bolts were too small in DIAMETER (!) and the remaining too short in length:eek:

[Al Murdoch]

Was just about to say the same thing - it exposed major flaws in BA's maintenance practices and oversight. Interestingly, the same incorrect bolts had been used before without incident.

[RAT 5]

Long live Heath Robinson. No pilot should be without chewing gum, duck tape, elastic bands and a roll of twine, oh, and lollipop sticks for splinting broken anything. Gone are the swiss penknife days, sadly.

[Flightmech]

Going back on thread. If this aircraft had recently had a screen change then it is quite common to see tape over the edge. It is not the pressure seal that is taped over (this is between the screen and frame). Like others have said, the aerodynamic seal/filler was applied but probably did not have sufficient cure-time so was covered with HST until such time it had cured. Typical journo way of doing business to say the screen was held in place by tape:ugh:

[Load Toad]

..and who is to say the tape isn't being held in place by the window...?

[Capetonian]

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee406/Helios340/DSC02615.jpg

This is the deluxe version. The basic doesn't include the cable ties, and the hammer is replaced by half a brick.

[frequentflyer2]

"A non-event blown out of proportion be sensationalistic and lazy journalism".

Sorry. As far as I can see at least one journalist asked Ryanair to comment and they refused. Why? All they had to do was issue a statement saying this was a routine procedure, carried out for the reasons outlined in the above posts.
To be honest, if I was on an aircraft and saw tape being applied to the cockpit windows, I would wonder why. Now I know. Wasn't this a missed opportunity to inform and educate passengers? Of course, the plane did have to turn back because the tape came loose. On most occasions, I would imagine, it stays in position.
I don't understand the attitude of airlines to perfectly reasonable requests for information from the press. A spokesperson for bmi once swore blind to me that no passengers had left their seats during take-off from Palma to Belfast because they believed air conditioning condensation was an indicator of fire at some location within the aircraft's fuselage.
It was "all nonsense", apparently.....until I told him the information about the incident had come from the CAA. "Ah," he said, conceding defeat, "I'll come back to you with a statement." He did this within five minutes.

[aer lingus]

Because they got a load of free advertising out of it. MOL and co don't care whether it is negative or not as long as some one is writing about FR in the papers.

[eng123]

That's a hell of a quiff the engineer in the background has though! What do you reckon Mr P? :)

[SRM]

Note: For all the experts nothing wrong here Boeing 737 Maintenance Manual chapter 56-11-00 states if aircraft has to fly prior to the sealant curing, cover it with high speed tape.

[Sampan Angkasa]

In Air Asia, it's quite common to have Scotch 425 Aluminum Foil Tape working wonders saving dispatch times!

[Dengue_Dude]

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee406/Helios340/DSC02615.jpg


AH, that's where it went, thought I'd lost it . . . now where did you put it?

[Sober Lark]

One could easily have commented that the use of such tape was standard practice. No need to go into technical details regarding the correct product, application, storage, serviceable life and training of person using it.

[Zorin_75]

All they had to do was issue a statement saying this was a routine procedure, carried out for the reasons outlined in the above posts.
Let me translate that into journo-speak:
"Ryanair: We do this all the time"
:E

[SRM]

SL Well one did not !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[slowto280]

Was the 'turn back' necessary? Seems like the tape would have ripped off at some point or would have completely blown off given some time.

How much damage can speed tape do? I guess if it were 'caked up' with sealant, some, but then that would be another story - as in sealant too wet to begin with...

Just curious about opinions. :8

[TURIN]

If it is any consolation, I had a big barney with BA in my time and refused to fly a 737-200 where the broken hinges on the leading edge of a largish access panel just in front of the engine was 'repaired' with same. I won.

Funnily enough many airlines no longer allow speed tape to be applied forward of the engines.

Any damaged panels, such as ground power recepticle, if damaged have to be removed (only iaw the CDL/MEL obviously) and under no circumstances may they be 'secured' with HSS.


This article is as usual typical lazy journalism.
Standard practices can be easily researched these days. The internet is a wonderful thing. But hey, why let the facts get in the way of a good story?

Stop buying newspapers and perhaps they will change their tune. :=

[Flightmech]

slowto280,

Maybe it was the noise it was generating disturbing the airflow that was the reason for the turnback. I remember a wiper that had failed to park fully on an MD-11 once (only about 0.5") and the noise was deafening!

[stepwilk]

Stop buying newspapers and perhaps they will change their tune.

Yes, instead we should listen to bloggers, gamers and other self-proclaimed experts. that'll get us right up to speed.

Reminds me of the famous New Yorker cartoon, the two dogs sitting at a computer, one says to the other, "On the Internet,nobody knows I'm a dog."

[grafity]

a) If you must send the airplane before the sealant is fully cured, install Scotch 425
Aluminum Foil Tape, G00291 on the top of the sealant.

Straight from the 737NG manual for the No. 1 window replacement. You'll notice in the reports that the tape was to protect the seal.

Former pilot John Guntrip said: "This could have been disastrous, the pilot could have been sucked out mid-air if the window had come off."
:ugh:

Actually John it could have possibly have got a little bit noisy, and messy maybe if the sealant wasn't fully cured. Hardly say disastrous. :ugh:

[Perrin]

Lets get real, the newspapers and experts love this stuff. There would have been a hell of alot of passengers delayed if I hadn't used it i/a/w the MEL and common sense when it saved the day. :hmm:

[JW411]

I flew professionally for the better part of half a century and I would find it hard to find a type of aircraft that I have flown that did NOT have speed tape applied at some time or other.

Certainly, covering the sealant on a windscreen whilst it cured was a very common one. Covering bird strike damage or sealing a panel when a fastener had gone were others.

I will tell you one thing, speed tape does not come cheap. It litterally WILL stick sh*t to a blanket.

If you are ever lucky enough to get a roll, take it home and give it to your wife next time she wants to wax her legs.

She will tell you how good it is!

[grounded27]

A few comments.

Speed tape is not allways a sure thing, temp and time for sealant are large variables, they could have accidentially used a bit too much sealant and worked it under the tape.

A trick of the trade (not wanting the speed tape to yank out the sealant when cured) is to apply a little "little!!" joy jelly to the sealant. This can backfire as well if used in excess.

The surface applying the speedtape to must be very clean and dry, the picture makes it look a bit damp out (my suspect culprit).

[sled dog]

Speed tape, WD40, sturdy pair of water pump pliers = B707 / DC8 FE tool kit. Once repaired a broken fan reverser actuator mount on a 707 by jamming a block of wood underneath the actuator and using what seemed like a mile of locking wire to secure to the fan casing. Lasted a month in a very hot and sandy place :ok:

[hawker750]

Ah yes, sled dog, but you were repairing a proper aeroplane when such repairs were normal and applauded and in an era when employees were encouraged to be innovative without fear of being dobbed in it by the second steward. Would not work on modern types now because you would have had to submit your "repair scheme" to EASA for approval. The last time we tried that I think it took 9 months. I know passengers are used to certain delays in their departure but I think even then they would have baulked at 9 months.

[Perrin]

Now you started it Sled Dog, re 707 DC8 when in doubt use a hammer the bigger the doubt the bigger the hammer.
:cool:

[P-MONKE]

Tape? what an extravagance.

We'd better not let slip that gliders are kept in the air by just a small piece of woollen string, 'cos then all hell'd break loose! :eek:

[r75]

"a) If you must send the airplane before the sealant is fully cured, install Scotch 425
Aluminum Foil Tape, G00291 on the top of the sealant."

This is also standard practice in the latest 747-400 AMM and SRM.

[Halton Brat]

The BA Captain involved in the (in)famous BAC 1-11 (Google Flt5390) windscreen incident was called Tim Lancaster.

He was almost one of the last flying Lancasters...............

HB

[mtoroshanga]

To put it into context,back in the day nearly every helicopter operating in dusty conditions flew with tape on the leading edge of both main and tail rotor blades which lasted for extended periods .

[WFLineage1000]

@ASFKAP
Are you sure? I know about BA (1-11). Cathay?

[EEngr]

Can't you just speed tape him to the seat?;)

[11Fan]

WFLineage1000,

Are you sure? I know about BA (1-11). Cathay?

ASFKAP was referring to an entirely different incident, although, it was blown out of proportion as well.

[Flightmech]

Agreed. The Cathay incident could have got very messy especially with a full load:E

[JEM60]

The BAC1-11 incident occurred over Oxfordshire, if I remember correctly. The crew were unable to pull him back in, and I believe he endured the rest of the flight half in and half out of the aircraft. Very lucky to escape with a broken arm and cuts, I believe.

[sqanze]

I was Load master on B707 , used Speed tape to repair damage on leading edge of tail section. It was on there for months, no problem. It does what it says on the wrapper.

[JamesT73J]

To add to the horror of the BAC 1-11 incident, they had to go to Southampton.

[fireflybob]

To add to the horror of the BAC 1-11 incident, they had to go to Southampton.

Here's the full story as a documentary - well done to crew!

BAC111

[leswerve]

Greetings
The reason that windscreen dropped out was a new set of wrong dia screws were fitted . Think there is/was a CAA report on the matter. It was also a part of a human factors course which I was given.

The reason for the tape is to protect the sealant while it cures. A combination of ground time and temprature being a facture of the cure. And a need to fly before it is fully cured.

Some years back I had the pleasure of cleaning a windscreen, covered in sealent, which no tape had been applied. := This was of course on a 747, useing a "cherry picker" . Not happy :ugh:

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Safelite/Carglass/Autoglass ALL THE SAME ! - YouTube

:ok:

[JP1]

I'd like to know more about the Cathay Pacific incident. Sounds as though a sticky situation that ended happily should be discussed more:)

[eagerbeaver1]

Even stickier than when sticky the stick insect got stuck on a sticky bun?

[MrHorgy]

jcjeant,

That link made me chuckle, i'm glad to see Autoglass adverts are rubbish worldwide, and not just in the UK!

Horgy

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've just found this thread, and am royally peed off.

I'm one of the several hundred boffins on the books of the Science Media Centre - I got contacted with this story by SMC before it was published. I explained all the things you'd think I'd explain -why you can't hold a window in with duct tape, where you would use it, how windows are held in, that Ryanair are actually quite good at maintaining their aeroplanes and don't play stupid games with safety.

Looking at this story, which I didn't know had gone out - it's very clear that the Sun decided that my advice just got in the way of a good story (and story it is, not news report) and binned it.

One cannot hope to bribe or twist,
Thank God, the British journalist;
But seeing what the man will do, unbribed:
There's no occasion to.

Another newspaper I'll take even more care talking to in the future.


(And for the record, I most certainly was not the pilot who gave that damn fool quote to this rag.)

G

[HAWK21M]

The HS Tape is not used to hold the Window in place :=

[IFixPlanes]

The HS Tape is not used to hold the Window in place
Oh, HAWK21M,
this statement was already given in post #11 (24.10.2011)

When do you start to read the hole thread before you write your comments?


PS: Same behaviour in the "IDG oil purpose" thread. :ugh: