Why the demise of QF29 HKG-LHR?

[ILikeToGetAround]

Hi all,

I've recently started a blog to properly examine some of Qantas' recent network planning decisions (I'm a part time transport planner and a QAN shareholder) and am hoping for some info on why Qantas pulled HKG-LHR. It's one part of the August announcement that just doesn't seem to add up.

From what I can see, Qantas has daily A330s feeding Hong Kong from Perth, Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne on the Australia end, and BA on the London end, and yet they claim that the flight was unprofitable.

- How does Air NZ make the route work no feed at either the Hong Kong or London ends (albeit with a 777)? Perhaps this is a good example of how Qantas should have moved away from the '747/A380 or nothing' approach to long haul.

- Did they time the Australian feeder flights to connect properly? From what I can see, only Melbourne and Sydney (some days) seem to connect to the flight. Brisbane and Perth have long layovers in the Australian bound direct, which may have artificially weakened the potential of the route. Has this always been the case, or was QF29 properly feed for most of its life?

- Was the route artificially weakened (relative to SIN-LHR) by the weaker on-board product of the 747?

- Given the heavy feed of Qantas flights into Singapore, could Beijing have worked as an A330 tag rather than being axed outright? The Jetstar SIN-PEK timings seem commercially unattractive and a fantastic way to waste a brand new widebody.

In case anybody is interested, this is the blog which anybody is welcome to tear to shreds :) : I like to get around | Ramblings on the Australian air industry (http://davidkeating.wordpress.com)

Thanks a lot

PS First post here but long-time reader

[Evanelpus]

I smell another round of QF bashing here.

Should we not be getting a little fed up with all of this?

[1a sound asleep]

These routes would have got the A380 but now that the last deliveries have been postponed (*read ear marked for Jetstar), it leaves a hole in the fleet. At present BKK and HKG routes to LHR are on 744 fleet. As these continue to be retired there will be no a/c left for the routes.

The majority of QF traffic on the routes is through traffic which can be fed into other carriers networks for great efficency . This means less capital outlay for QF and that money can be (supposedly) used for other routes/ventures that make more profit.

Its true that SIN-LHR is more profitable than BKK or HKG. But I think of recent times that's because premium pax are chasing the A380 routes and not the clapped out 744 services. As for HKG that has a lot of competition on the LHR route.

ANZ has less competition to AKL and this is their only prime Asian route to LHR. Remember ANZ doesnt fly to LKR via SIN or BKK.

In reality QF has too many services heading to LHR and not enough to the other 101 places pax want to go to. This is why Emirates (the world most uncomfortable Y class airline) is growing so fast with a huge range of one stop destinations.

Now I am not saying I agree with all the above. just trying the objective reply

[Sunfish]

evanelpus:

I smell another round of QF bashing here.

Should we not be getting a little fed up with all of this?

Obviously not a thinking person.

Since we now operate in a globalised economy, it is critically important for Australian businesses to have cheap, fast and frequent links to the rest of the world - its a competition thing.

A moribund national carrier like Qantas exposes Australia to the risk of not being able to ensure that international airfares are competitive. We had the same problem in the shipping industry some years ago and could do nothing about it.

[Evanelpus]

Obviously not a thinking person

Cruel.

I obviously was thinking because I thought you Aussies were bashing your national airline again!

[1a sound asleep]

Since we now operate in a globalised economy, it is critically important for Australian businesses to have cheap, fast and frequent links to the rest of the world - its a competition thing

I blame it all on the likes of Emirates. Qantas simply cant compete with EK's lower operating costs. Simple.

Who's going to want to fly QF to the likes of Paris, Rome, Milan, Amsterdam, Manchester (and another 35 destinations) and transit the likes of LHR and a minimum of 3 flights, longer travel time, miserable baggage allowances.
OR
Cheaper and 1 stop service on Emirates (30kg baggage in Y) and a faster journey time. People wonder why EK is growing so fast

I dont like Emirates but they have eaten a huge % of QF's market. Its just the fact even if QF wont admit it.

I wont even start on the likes of AirASiaX. Another one eating away at QF's Y market and putting further pressure on fares.

QFSYD-LHR 1970's $1950 return
QF SYD-LHR 2011 $1950 return

The figures just dont ad up. Either fares have to go up (they cant due to competition) or Qantas has to reduce costs

I might ad the Qantas has been slowly shrinking for years. Back in 1980 these were Qantas services from Australia

Australasia :

Auckland
Brisbane
Christchurch
Darwin
Melbourne
Perth
Sydney
Wellington

Far East :

Bangkok
Denpasar
Hong Kong
Jakarta
Kuala Lumpur
Manila
Port Moresby
Singapore
Tokyo

South Asia :

Bahrain
Bombay
Damascus

Europe :

Amsterdam
Athens
Belgrade
Frankfurt
London
Paris
Rome

Pacific :

Honolulu
Los Angeles
Nadi
Noumea
San Francisco
Vancouver

Qantas 2020??????????????????? Will it exist?

[dizzylizzy]

BNE & PER -> HKG flights were retimed about 18months ago? in order to connect with the 29/30... which made sense... but the sectors from BNE & PER->HKG aren't daily. It is a real shame to see the end of 29/30 but commercially QF was competing a non lie flat J bed, vile Y/c with appalling IFE with something of the likes of CX 747/340/777. Even with the BA JSA service on this route the timings still aren't the best and the stop over is at least 3-5hours. Maybe if QF had a 777 fleet and could switch between type depending on pax load this may have been a profitable route?

[Mud Skipper]

Funny thing is I often operate these legs and the loads 95% of trips is very good with staff often missing out. Perhaps the yield is not so good I don't know but until load drops below 80% then I would have thought you keep squeezing to make a dollar.

I question if we are pulling out of these routes to make it more publicly/politically acceptable to transfer the slots to J* (Call it what ever) after BA have leased the slots off us for a year or so and the new Asian operation is up and running.
LHR slots don't fall off trees, we will be gifting these to the new operation just like we have given away so many other routes.

Bit of smoke and mirrors but nothing new with our current management.

[flying_a_nix_box]

To me the 29/30 is the best way to/from Melbourne to/from London. As a QF SLF I'm not impressed with it being dropped.

[cribble]

Ben Sandilands has blogged on this issue at some length. Interesting reading at Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/)

[ozbiggles]

And just when I was getting to like BS writings I read his stuff on air marshals lower down the page.
Some pretty dumb stuff there.

[Jack Ranga]

Try going to Vietnam with Qantas..............

Try going to New Zealand with Qantas, and anywhere other than Aukland.......

Then, heaven forbid, try doing it business class :ugh:

What a disgrace this airline management is. You would have to have had the plot in the first place to lose it.

They have gifted Emirates, Singair, Air New Zealand and others quite a good patch, imbeciles.

[skybed]

More concerns for QF staff

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QF seeks rights variations
QANTAS is requesting changes to capacity determinations on a number of international routes, seeking variations which will enable the capacity to also be used “by any wholly-owned subsidiary” of the carrier. The International Air Services Commission yesterday published the requests, relating to the renewal of determinations which expire during 2012.
Affected routes include flights to Germany, Hong Kong, Thailand, and the Philippines, with Qantas in each case requesting renewals of current capacity allocations but with the modifications asking for the ability to operate using an offshoot airline. The move is intriguing given the previously announced plans for QF’s new Asian-based premium
airline, along with the expected rapid expansion of Jetstar International once it begins toreceive its long-awaited 787s.

By downgrading the QF 29 to an A333 (even the QF29 is full almost every day) it's long term goal is to palm at least half the flights of to J*. CX has triple daily and having spoken to a few mates who use the QF 29 on a regular bases they wont fly on an A333,let alone J*.
so here again we give the business away.:ugh:
the same happens to BKK. which business person wants a 4+hour transit to fly to LHR on BA. all setup for J* in the future.
13 or 14 A380 and 9 747 and some 333/332 , thats all that is going to be left of QF in 3-5 years.:yuk:

[peuce]

Just thinking ....

Which airline will take responsibility for passengers when, for whatever reason, BA can't provide the onwards leg from these Asian hubs?

Will QF put us up in a plush HK hotel when we get stranded there?

[QueenBuzzzzz]

I thought Qantas were putting the finishing touches on the new First Class lounge in HKG.... has anyone heard any differently? Who will be using the lounge?

[ohallen]

Maybe it is a ploy to build a new home for BB???

From what is on offer, he will be the only one who will want to use it.

[skybed]

you be staying at redstar hotel before being put on a redstar or jetstar flight:E

[Stalins ugly Brother]

I blame it all on the likes of Emirates. Qantas simply cant compete with EK's lower operating costs. Simple.

Qantas cannot blame anyone else for its situation other than the money grabbing executives we have had to endure over the last 10 years.

We had the domestic market fall in our lap in 2001, yet we squandered that advantage. We had the likes of SARS have crippling effects on our asian competitors, presenting a major opportunity to purchase 777s at hugely discounted prices, and yet another opportunity squandered.

In 2007 we had an executive team, by their own admission "took their eyes off the Ball" for a good 12 months while they prepared the APA takeover and tried to work out which Island in the Caribbean they could buy for themselves! After that debacle unravelled it was blatantly obvious that these clowns didn't want to be at QF anymore and I would say the ball was dropped for a bit longer than admitted until the next snouts appeared.

Today we have a LCC ceo that knows nothing of Australian values and what is required to run a premium Australian airline, and don't forget to mention the Chairman of the board who has absolutely no airline experience and is just a hard nut union buster with very little in the nut.
Things don't need to be this way, just have to look over the back fence to see what has happened with Air NZ and even our front yard to see the engagement at Virgin thanks to JB.

But they (QF executives) have an agenda to circumvent Australian laws, taxes, and the right of the Australian people to have a national carrier (soon be to Virgin), for personal profit.

But they still want government protection or intervention when it suits them ...........

During the last ten years employees have seen routes cut, employees made redundant, LCC continuously set up at Mainlines expense. Where do you think the initial funding for these ventures comes from?? The list goes on and on, yet when it mattered most, no 777s ordered, a fleet replacement program that was planned around aircraft designed with new technologies that had not been tested and that are now heading to J*.
But significantly,no expansion which allowed the door to be opened to our competitors, who came along and provided a service where there wasn't one anymore.

So before you blame anyone for Qantas's dire situation at the moment maybe, just maybe it might be worth looking inhouse first before we blame SQ and EK.

Anything else is just spin.........

[1a sound asleep]

Stalins ugly Brother - There's no question that the rott is at the VERY top. I acknowledge that once the concept of destroying/selling off Qantas was dreamt up, even after it failed, it still seems to be the sole ambition of the board.

Yes they should have bought 777 fleet. Too late now I am afraid.

Yes Jetstar was handed Qanats routes for free. Yes jetstar gets favourable financial treatment on the books. We know that is purely for the sake of breaking the unions. Fact is the are hell bnet on cutting down the unions and bringing them to their knees.

So how can the unions fight? In all honestly I believe this is a no win situation the way it is being fought. I have said it all along and will say it again - BUY THE COMPANY.

Qantas has about 33,000 employees. Market Cap ($M):3,364 Equiv. Shares (M): 2,265. Share price Average $1.50.

Through the union, set up a super fund which invests in qantas, and redirect other super funds into Qantas shares. The entire value of Qantas equates to $101,000 per employee. I know many employees that would be capable of buying that level of shares.

With redirected superannuation I calculate that approximately $30,000 per employee and we would have total control of the company.

AS for SQ and EK. Different animals. SQ competes on service. EK competes because (a) it pays the majority of its staff absolutely peanuts in Dubai Pesos under some of the worst non-union protection (b) EK buys a lot of its fuel and a substantially lower price (c) EK has low interest Government funding/loans (d) IT pays no tax (including income tax/GST/Carbon Tax/payroll tax). Reality is EK is a glossed up LCC. Sat in a EK 777 with 10 across seating?

Qantas will NEVER be able to compete with Emirates. This is not QF's fault.
Qantas must compete by offering a better route network and yes maybe joint ventures are the way to go WITHOUT killing off Australian jobs

Unless everybody buys some Qantas shares (AND TAKES CONTROL) this rott at the top will continue to fester. Each and every Qantas employee could use margin loans to buy $30,000 of QAN shares. This would mean a cash investment of $9000 per head, on average. (Loans available at 70% of share price) With redirection of super funds into QAN shares we would take control

Wake up. I have been preaching this for ages and I wonder if Qantas employees really believe in Qantas and are as passionate as they pretend.
I am advocating investment, not donation. This is a tax effective, deductible investment that will save Qantas and ultimately be a profit making excercise

[ReadMyACARS]

QANTAS had a golden opportunity to operate QF1/2 and QF29/30 with A380's in the near future as aircraft arrived. This would have been the sole A380 flights between LHR and BKK or HKG. By deferring the A380's and cutting the services in half or, probably, giving them to One Star, they have thrown the biggest advantage they would have had on either of those routes. Yes, SLF are chasing A380 flights because even cattle class seats are comfortable, so why would you not try and maximise the advantages against their competitors? Yet another case of the airline shrugging its shoulders, picking up its bat and walking off sulking.To me, this decision more than any other shows up the QF decision making process.

As for the cost differences betweeen airlines, the biggest cost difference in place is in the home base of the airline, EK does not get its fuel and ground services any cheaper in the UK, Europe or the US because it is based in Dubai. They still have to pay market rates all over the world the same as QF does. The biggest impediment to the QF fleet's cost base will be its domestic operations as non-skilled wages in Oz are much higher than in the rest of the world, probibly with the exception of Japan.

[1a sound asleep]

QANTAS had a golden opportunity to operate QF1/2 and QF29/30 with A380's in the near future as aircraft arrived.

Just a little pause whilst the drama goes away and then the A380s will be here in silver and orange.

SYD-LHR-SYD 800pax

http://i54.tinypic.com/fdzfr5.jpg

[Redstone]

852 punters through 17 brascos over a 12 HR sector...... choice!

[bloggs2]

852 punters through 17 brascos over a 12 HR sector

but think of all the muffins you could sell.

[ILikeToGetAround]

Thank you to everyone who helped me out on this thread - I've gone ahead and written up the following piece on the removal of QF29. I'm not one to criticise for the sake of criticising, and it seems like Qantas run quite an efficient operation through Singapore to London. However, a lot of their network planning decisions relating to the HKG hub seem quite questionable:

QF29 Hong Kong to London: How Qantas trashed their own route | I like to get around (http://davidkeating.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/qf29-hong-kong-to-london-how-qantas-trashed-their-own-route/)

INTRO
Qantas’ recent decision to axe their QF29 Hong Kong to London route was caused by a series of poor network planning decisions.

BACKGROUND
Currently, Qantas operates a daily 747-400 between Hong Kong and London as QF29/30; this flight begins in Melbourne and is one of four daily Qantas services between Australia and the UK. Qantas is planning to axe the Hong Kong to London route in March 2012.
Qantas also flies to Hong Kong from Brisbane, Sydney and Perth using its A330-300 (the workhorse of the Asia network).

FORGETTING TO CONNECT THE FLIGHTS
Qantas neglected to follow a basic ‘Airlines 101’ principle in operating their Hong Kong hub – they forgot to time their flights so that passengers could connect. This meant that they could not fill up their Hong Kong to London flight with passengers from around Australia.
Airlines typically provide a service between Australia and the UK/Europe using the ‘scissor hub’ approach. This involves flying services from a range of Australian cities to a central hub where passengers connect onto services to the UK/Europe. Major players in the Australian to Europe market, such as Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Emirates, all use this approach. Qantas also employs this approach at its Singapore hub. Services from Adelaide, Brisbane, Melbourne, Perth and Sydney are neatly coordinated to connect to onward services to London, Frankfurt, Mumbai and formerly Paris.

The ‘scissor hub’ approach was not adopted by Qantas in scheduling their Hong Kong services. Flights from Brisbane and Perth, which lack a direct service to London, were not timed to meet the flight from London; instead, these passengers were funnelled via Singapore. Essentially, the Hong Kong to London service was fed by only one flight (QF29 from Melbourne) rather than four. An incredibly wasteful approach to planning a service.
Qantas had the potential to make this flight the primary link between Brisbane/Perth and London, leaving the A380s to be fed by services from Melbourne, Sydney and Asia (via RedQ). This oversight was particularly because Brisbane to London is actually faster via Hong Kong than via Singapore.

INFERIOR ONBOARD PRODUCT
Qantas rolled out its updated onboard product onto both its Singapore to London flights but not its Hong Kong to London service. This would have caused passengers to shift to the Singapore hub, thereby artificially diminishing the profitability of the Hong Kong to London route.
Qantas should have given the Hong Kong to London route the same product as the Singapore to London services. This product would have been a source of differentiation against competitors and removed the artificial shift of passengers towards the Singapore hub. It also would have left more space on the A380 for passengers connecting off the new ‘RedQ’ carrier.

A FEW OTHER WHAT-IFS
 It is likely that Qantas could have continued to operate the Hong Kong to London route, despite the poor scheduling out of Singapore, if they had bought the Boeing 777. Air New Zealand successfully operates the HKG-LHR route using the 777-200ER despite lacking any partner airlines at Hong Kong or London.
 The Hong Kong hub could have been used to operate a tag flight to Beijing to replace the Sydney to Beijing service that was axed in 2009. This would provide additional feed for the London flight and give one of the A330s something to do instead of sitting on the ground in Hong Kong all day.

CLOSING
The Hong Kong to London route’s supposed poor performance was caused by Qantas’ failure to manage the details effectively. The route could have been a real winner, particularly for Brisbane to London passengers, if Qantas bothered to connect the flights properly and provided the same onboard product that other Qantas London flights have received.
Thank you for reading.

[X_class]

I think that Qantas has got this one right.

To me it makes no sense to operate three diferent SYD-LHR flights with a choice of refulling in Singapore, Bangkok or Hong Kong. If you are going straight through to London why would you care where the plane bounces ?. Having all the traffic funneled through Singapore must give Qantas staffing/purchasing savings as well as extra flexibility when something goes wrong.

So - from a Qantas perspective connections in BKK/HKG are a non issue - if you are going to London you do so via Singapore. This leaves only traffic with a final destination of BKK/HKG on those flights. If I want to do a stopover in either of those cities then I dont really care about the connection time.

[obira]

ILikeToGetAround,

You might need to check your facts again.

QF97 from BNE arrives at HKG at 0600
QF67 from PER arrives at HKG at 0605
QF29 from MEL arrives at HKG at 0550
QF87 from SYD arrives at HKG at 0500

QF29 departs HKG for LHR at 0735

Looking at the return
QF30 from LHR arrives at HKG at 1720

QF128 to SYD departs HKG at 2055
QF68 to PER departs HKG at 2325
QF98 to BNE departs HKG at 2315

[alangirvan]

Hong Kong to London is the route that Qantas wanted for so many years - it was denied to them because it was a cabotage route - available only to UK or HK based airlines. It was attractive to Qantas because they would have liked to give Australian passengers travelling to London a stopover in HKG, and they would also like to access the important market between HKG and LHR -all those Business passengers. A competitive market, with CX offering four or five flights per day, BA up to three flights per day and also Virgin Atlantic, which had a go at doing twice daily for a short period. AirNZ started at almost the same time as Qantas, and contrary to your comments, the route is not such a strong performer for them either.

If you want to carry local traffic between the city of Hong Kong and London, perhaps a departure at 0735 does not help - it is a long journey from the city to the airport at that time of day with a very early check in time. CX has two day light flights to London, but they leave later in the morning. BA has no daylight flights to London. But, early morning arrival slots at LHR are hard to find.

[fdr]

So how can the unions fight? In all honestly I believe this is a no win situation the way it is being fought. I have said it all along and will say it again - BUY THE COMPANY.

Qantas has about 33,000 employees. Market Cap ($M):3,364 Equiv. Shares (M): 2,265. Share price Average $1.50.

Through the union, set up a super fund which invests in qantas, and redirect other super funds into Qantas shares. The entire value of Qantas equates to $101,000 per employee. I know many employees that would be capable of buying that level of shares.

With redirected superannuation I calculate that approximately $30,000 per employee and we would have total control of the company.

AS for SQ and EK. Different animals. SQ competes on service. EK competes because (a) it pays the majority of its staff absolutely peanuts in Dubai Pesos under some of the worst non-union protection (b) EK buys a lot of its fuel and a substantially lower price (c) EK has low interest Government funding/loans (d) IT pays no tax (including income tax/GST/Carbon Tax/payroll tax). Reality is EK is a glossed up LCC. Sat in a EK 777 with 10 across seating?

Qantas will NEVER be able to compete with Emirates. This is not QF's fault.
Qantas must compete by offering a better route network and yes maybe joint ventures are the way to go WITHOUT killing off Australian jobs

Unless everybody buys some Qantas shares (AND TAKES CONTROL) this rott at the top will continue to fester. Each and every Qantas employee could use margin loans to buy $30,000 of QAN shares. This would mean a cash investment of $9000 per head, on average. (Loans available at 70% of share price) With redirection of super funds into QAN shares we would take control

Wake up. I have been preaching this for ages and I wonder if Qantas employees really believe in Qantas and are as passionate as they pretend.
I am advocating investment, not donation. This is a tax effective, deductible investment that will save Qantas and ultimately be a profit making excercise


I concur.

QFA staff & shareholders need to either act or alternatively accept their fate.

You have an arguably poisonous management program, that is hell bent on undertaking a structure that the majority of you are unlikely to survive. The current protected industrial action is achieving little, (unless the intent is to reduce the buyout price, in which case it is ineffective to date).

The disconnect between reality (ie Jetstar Pacific) and rhetoric indicates that the management is failing to learn any lesson from their performance. The additional disgraceful practice of complaining about the long haul program profitability without acknowledging the effects of the off book transactions to Jetstar's advantage, or the penalties for criminal behaviour by management personnel on multiple occasions is evidence that the underlying intent to transfer the whole operation in due course to the cheap and nasty orange program is like catnip to the poison dwarf.

QFA needs to be able to compete with the global market. The incestuous relationship of Jetstar, and the irrational group think position of QF corporate management that considers that a despised, poor quality product which is not able to show profitability in other markets is the way of the future needs to be removed from the equation.

If you work for QFA or own shares in the company, you need to act to protect your program from the existing management. Striking is not effective. Either buyout or accept the alternative. If you do not wish to act to buy the company, then please do stop complaining, the outcome is within your control and the ultimate demise of QF will be a result of inaction.

(As oft misquoted) from Burke:

"Perpetrators, collaborators, bystanders, victims: we can be clear about three of these categories. The bystander, however, is the fulcrum. If there are enough notable exceptions, then protest reaches a critical mass. We don’t usually think of history as being shaped by silence, but, as English philosopher Edmund Burke said, ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.’".



FDR

[ILikeToGetAround]

To me it makes no sense to operate three diferent SYD-LHR flights with a choice of refulling in Singapore, Bangkok or Hong Kong.


Arguably, giving the passengers a choice of HKG or SIN could be a source of competitive advantage. I agree that BKK was a goner - there was no feed at BKK (other than for those willing to fly JQ BKK-MEL).

I appreciate what you're saying about the stopovers, but funnelling the BNE and PER pax via HKG would allow more space on the A380s for QantAsia pax. It doesn't add up that Qantas wants to concurrently increase the passengers flying to LHR (they've said that they want to carry QantAsia passengers to Europe) while reducing the capacity to LHR.

If you want to carry local traffic between the city of Hong Kong and London, perhaps a departure at 0735 does not help - it is a long journey from the city to the airport at that time of day with a very early check in time. CX has two day light flights to London, but they leave later in the morning.

Thanks for the back-story. NZ was always going to be the most vulnerable carrier on this route, despite its smaller aircraft, because it lacks feed at either end.

Is traffic between Asia and London a major source of revenue for the Qantas LHR flights? Perhaps because the flight is only fed by Melbourne and Sydney (both of which have direct A380 services to LHR) they were filling up the aircraft with low yield HKG-LHR traffic willing to travel early. Do the A380s carrying much SIN-LHR local traffic?


Looking at the return
QF30 from LHR arrives at HKG at 1720

QF128 to SYD departs HKG at 2055
QF68 to PER departs HKG at 2325
QF98 to BNE departs HKG at 2315

You're right, the connections to LHR are great. However, the connections in the Australia bound direction towards PER and BNE are poor. The punters have better options than sitting around HKG for six hours (eg 3.5 hours via QF at SIN, undoubtedly other competitors have even better options) which is probably why the flight failed to attract feed from these cities. Feed from MEL and SYD is a moot point as they have the A380 factor.

QF29, if given the same on-board product as the SIN-LHR flights, and timed to connect in both directions, could have been a real winner for BNE-LHR and PER-LHR pax. The newer product probably would have skimmed some traffic off BA and NZ on the route, too.

[packrat]

It was found that 65% of QF passengers that visited HKG were actually on a 1 or two day transit to Europe...in patricular LHR.Qantas wanted a piece of the action.
HKG has long been a better destination for shopping and nightlife than SIN.
FRA to BKK would be a better sector than FRA/SIN.Germans are still in love with Thailand.
Perhaps QF are close to obtaining rights from PVG to LHR?
This would perhaps replace HKG.
Still and all cutting down services to the UK in the year of the Olympics does seem odd.With the Ex pat population in HKG and Australians wanting to see the Olympics seats will be at a premium~prices go up and yield should be a bonanza

[Yawn]

Very odd decision given they have come up with a plan to base a large number of A320 Neos fitted with just business class seats in HK to feed into China.

One could make a case for the large number of business class seats into HK (from UK, Australia and Japan (JetStar Japan with Business class in A320)) need to be re-directed into China via HK.

The simple way to start an airline in to use your own feed, interline and revenue management systems.

Why would you take that feed away. Sort of leads the new small airline to the wolves.

[Atlas Shrugged]

852 punters through 17 brascos over a 12 HR sector...... choice!

That's an hourly **** rate of 23.94% :ok:

[indamiddle]

wait till you travel on one of the new reconfigured 747. losing another 5 dunnies!. those sick bags are not waterproof either. punters struggle to get their business (sorry) done with 14, will be interesting with only 9. premium carrier, LCC crappers.
with regards load factors maybe using staff travel to check loads on sectors syd/hkg/lhr, syd/bkk/lhr in april then compare with syd/hkg, syd/bkk in may could show some interesting data. will there be a drop off in sydney sectors after april?

[Oktas8]

Through the union, set up a super fund which invests in qantas, and redirect other super funds into Qantas shares.

As a matter of prudence, I don't make long term investments in my employer's shares. That way, if my employment collapses at least I have my investments, and vice versa.

Also, in the seventies many unions in western countries exerted a high degree of control over major employers. They did this through political rather than capitalist methods, but control existed in some form. Consider miners and car manufacturers in the UK, waterfront workers and builders' labourers in Australia & NZ. Now how well did that work out for everyone? Not well at all, for management or for workers. The power of unions and employers must be held in a balanced tension, and abuse results if either one dominates.

O8
Investor & union member

[ILikeToGetAround]

Very odd decision given they have come up with a plan to base a large number of A320 Neos fitted with just business class seats in HK to feed into China.
I believe the new carrier is supposed to be based in SIN: Qantas Singapore Plans May Be Blocked | AVIATION WEEK (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=comm&id=news/avd/2011/10/25/02.xml&headline=Qantas%20Singapore%20Plans%20May%20Be%20Blocked)

Having said that, you'd think that the additional demand out of SIN (due to the new carrier you mentioned) would increase the need to carry pax via HKG, rather then decrease it. I believe that QF29/30 could have functioned as the primary Asia-LHR flight for PER and BNE pax, thereby allowing the SIN-LHR A380s to cater for the new QantAsia in the manner you suggested.

[teiemka]

Thanks for the back-story. NZ was always going to be the most vulnerable carrier on this route, despite its smaller aircraft, because it lacks feed at either end.



You seemed to have overlooked that NZ fills a black hole for STAR Alliance between HKG-LHR.

[QueenBuzzzzz]

Qantas will be operating their A380 4 x weekly to HKG from Jan 12. I guess this explains why the First Class Lounge is being refurbished.

[moa999]

The math aint that hard.

QF29 arrives LHR 13.30
QF30 departs LHR 22.30

So 9hrs sitting on the tarmac doing sfa in the middle of the European day, plus pilots and crew out of port on big layovers.

Competing against BA who can turn their 747/ 777s on a short Eurohop or maintenance in that time, or CX who can fly the schedules ex HKG to make quicker turns and all without layover and multiple crew costs.

Planes on the ground = cost disadvantage...

----------

On RedQ/oneasia etc I actually see this potentially being positive for QF-metal to SIN.
Due to the LHR curfew, all QFs SIN services arrive late at night - too late for any connections. Thus if going to a whole bunch of secondary Asian cities you fly SQ/MH or someone else to make a same-day connection.
If RedQ actually works it might support some early morning Asian flights out of Aussie ports in addition to the LHR connections.

-------

QueenBuzz,
Looking forward to the A380 to HKG....
However long term (and if China ever becomes more visa-friendly to Aussies) competing price-wise against CZ into CAN (only about 1-1.5hr by train) from HKG is going to be tough.

[almostthere!]

moa999 your logic is seriously lacking.....

According to you 9 hrs sitting on the tarmac doing SFA is the problem of the 29/30. So why then do the, 11/12, 15/16, 93/94 and 107/108 make money despite their "sitting on the tarmac doing SFA" for up to 17 hours?

so in this case the math is hard, based on your logic....

[ILikeToGetAround]

Due to the LHR curfew, all QFs SIN services arrive late at night - too late for any connections. Thus if going to a whole bunch of secondary Asian cities you fly SQ/MH or someone else to make a same-day connection.
If RedQ actually works it might support some early morning Asian flights out of Aussie ports in addition to the LHR connections.

The lack of daytime departure from LHR has been raised before and is a sore point amongst some travellers. If QF29/30 was maintained as a third daily LHR flight, I think that Qantas could have run QF2 (LHR-SIN-SYD) as a daytime departure. This would allow LHR-SYD pax to retain a night-time departure by using QF30 or QF32.

SQ has three flights per day LHR-SIN; these are spread somewhat evenly across the day at 1100, 1800 and 2200.

[skybed]

the 777. would be ideal to have that aircraft leave LHR at noon.
in addition the Syd centric management forgets that their are nearly the same amount of potential customers residing in Mel then in Syd. flights to JNB,EZE,BOM etc. would be ideal to share between Syd & Mel. Even the transfer between domestic and international is much easier.:ugh::ugh::{

[moa999]

almostthere!
The logic is right its all about relativity.

on HKG-LHR QF aircraft sit on the ground, BA, CX, VS don't

on SYD/MEL-USA, yes QF aircraft sit on the ground unproductively, but so do VA, UA, DL (albeit the latter two at the Aussie end)

All I can say is think goodness Hawaii isn't independent with lots of oil wealth to invest in other assets.

[moremj2]

I dont know about the HKG saga...but i will tell you what i know...

QF....MEL-LHR for 2 Pax = $3991 (Y class sale price)

Jet Airways (NO not Jet Star...Jet Airways...9W)

(stop=stopover at MY request so i can see the sites for a few days (each)

MEL-SIN (stop)-BOM (stop)-LHR(stop)-PRG(stop)-BRU-DEL(stop)-SIN(stop)-MEL....2 PAX...$3772...(Y class advance purchase price)

Talk about bang for your buck....And the MEL-SIN and SIN-MEL flights are on a QF aircraft....the LHR-PRG on ezyjet...and PRG-BRU on brussels airlines...

And you get an extra inch of legroom in Y class on 9W than QF...better food, and trolley dollies that actually give a stuff about you...:ok:

Last trip i did (SIN-DEL) (stupidly paid double as i bought a QF codeshare ticket) with 9W i got a 1/4 chicken & chips, Vegies, with a salad and bread and butter pudding covered in solid golden syrup for desert...washed down with enough scotch to hurt me....:D

So you should be asking....Why would you even consider flying QF on a clapped out 400...squeezed in like cattle...treated like cattle...and fed a selection of restaurant inspired...ummm...stuff....:ugh:

[QueenBuzzzzz]

Ah Yes.... Jet Airways.... currently receiving 5/10 on Skytrax....the comments make for interesting reading. I like the 2 below:

Jet Connect from CCU to MAA. The flight was delayed beyond acceptable limits. The ground staff was not at all apologetic. The cabin crew was equally nonchalant. To get some water I had to ask thric - another person had to argue with cabin crew to get a pillow. Though it was a lunch-time flight they did not load enough lunch packets and some of us had only tea. Timeliness, attitude and service quality of Jet Airways seem to have gone down significantly.

Or,

If you like curry for breakfast, lunch, dinner and tea, you are quids in. The lack of food choice was terrible. Even my two travelling companies who enjoy a nice curry baulked at the idea of curry for breakfast. The service was poor, waiting a long time for staff to respond to a call for water, which was extremely lacking - often we had to wait until dinner was served to get a drink. We were well prepared for the journey back and stocked up on snacks as we knew we wouldn't be eating any of the meals on this airline. Would not use Jet Airways again.

Brussels Airline is slightly better at 5.9/10 and Easy Jet a nice balanced 6/10.
Qantas, the airline everybody loves to hate is sitting at 7.4.... Virgin is on the rise at 7.7.....

[Chicken Joe]

When are we going to realize that total private ownership and globalization policies inevitably destroy so called "national carriers". The only thing guaranteed in the airline business is volatility. Without the security of government backing, airline management always look for the easiest option when cost cutting - the labour force. The seeds of destruction were planted in 1993 with the push for full privatization of the 2 national airlines. A total re-shape and offshore solution is the only way this can end, however if the process had been properly mapped, communicated, and implemented to the staff and public since 1993 we may have seen a much better outcome.

[73to91]

Chicken Joe, 1 question. Have the likes of Emirates decided that an off shore solution is the way to go?

From letters in the SMH on Wed 23rd Nov 2011




Qantas dispute a wake-up call to Canberra
While attention in Australia is focused on the struggles between Qantas management and its employees (''More passenger pain possible as Qantas dispute heads to umpire (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/more-passenger-pain-possible-as-qantas-dispute-heads-to-umpire-20111121-1nr0k.html)'', November 22), we also see news from Dubai that Emirates airline has just announced plans to acquire 50 more Boeing 777 aircraft.


We wonder whether anyone in Australia has connected these dots.



The seeds of Qantas's challenges were sown more than 15 years ago, when Australia's government granted virtually unrestricted air access rights to foreign state-owned carriers such as Emirates.



Emirates is now the largest international airline in the world, ostensibly serving a country slightly larger than Tasmania with a population the size of the greater Sydney area. This airline has grown disproportionately, not by serving its own minuscule market, but by dumping capacity into markets like Australia, pulling passengers destined for other international locations through its state-built super-hub.



The Arabian Gulf states operate their airlines as instruments of economic development policy. Their vertically integrated business models include everyone from the head of state to the janitorial staff, including regulators, navigation, airports and support services.



These predatory airlines have dumped so much capacity into the Australian market that your national airline now finds itself in distress. No airline in the developed world could endure such an attack, unless its government is prepared to similarly subsidise its operations and forgive all forms of taxation.



What Australians are witnessing is the result of unsustainable public policy.



While Qantas employees and management battle for the hearts and minds of the public, it was their own government that abandoned to these predators the thousands of Australians who benefit from employment in your aviation industry and many more at its suppliers.



If there is a silver lining for us, it is that we have been able to use Australia as a shining example of what not to do with international air policy. The government of Canada has adopted a far more principled and studied approach.



This is cold comfort for our colleagues at Qantas and the citizens of Australia. The Australian government needs a wake-up call.



Captain Paul Strachan president, Air Canada Pilots Association, Mississauga, Canada




Read more: The customers are the real losers in these wars (http://www.smh.com.au/national/letters/the-customers-are-the-real-losers-in-these-wars-20111122-1nsug.html#ixzz1ef6VdmQH)</H3>

[DOME]

I just had a cryptic message from someone who'd know, that HKG is to go the way of SFO, DPS, FCO etc. i.e. off the schedule!

Hard to believe but that's the impression I got from reading between the lines. Then again it might be too much reading between the lines!

[AQIS Boigu]

After a quick check on flyzed.com it looks like QF will be no more on the HKG-LHR route from April onwards...

[DOME]

My impression was - again reading between lines - that HKG was to disappear entirely in the next months! Not just HKG-LHR.

[DirectAnywhere]

Dome and AQIS...that's the whole point of this thread!

From April HKG-LHR disappears for QF. As does, BKK-LHR. Half of the London capacity disappears just before what is shaping up to be the busiest northern summer ever. Sheer f$&king genius from Alan and network.

[moremj2]

QBuzz...

I can find similar comments about Q....examples...

SYD-LAX return in economy A380. Aircraft itself excellent. Flight delayed due to mechanical issue. Cabin crew rude and seemed to want to be anywhere else but working. Food very poor for international flight, even by economy standards. As a FF and long time customer you can feel the crews low moral. I will be trying out the competition next time as I feel standards are slipping while airfares increase.

Brisbane - London return via Hong Kong. HKG-LHR an old 747 showing its age badly, packed in like sardines. Food okay but a curious mixture of things. Staff on some sectors good, on other sectors totally disinterested or invisible. All in all a very mixed bag, which will make me fly TG, SQ, or CX next time.

I am merely saying that MY choice of airline was due to 2 factors.....
1...Price
2...Service vs price

My previous long hauls with 9W were faultless...as have been the majority of my QF experiences...but for me...QF no longer provides the $ vs service it once did. As an example...i flew 3 x (as Pax) the (showing my age) SYD-LHR via SIN and BAH...meals every 3 hours..service like a restaurant...worth the $...

RE the QF29...again...why would you take something from your customers that they want? Like SFO?

It is a strange choice. Unless the reason to stop at HKG is so QF can feed its new asian start up, charge the same price, and skim more profit...that simple.:}

[Yarra]

Would QF ever consider routing through Dubai to LHR?.

[frangatang]

From March next year, BA will have a 400 and 2X new 777s doing lhr-hkg and one of the services is the daylight maniac. Theres your connection.