DASH 8 accident in PNG

[R.OCKAPE]

just heard a rumour one went down near Madang , fatalities involved

[bia botal]

most likely this one

CG1600 15:00 POM LAE 16:00
16:35 LAE MAG 17:10

heard there was a in flight fire, not much info out yet.

[engee]

People from Madang confirmed it

[olderairhead]

Apparently 3 miles off Madang in the water, rescue vessel's on the way. Hopefully all ok.

[Waghi Warrior]

Bet me to it, I heard about 15 miles south of Madang. Either way it sounds really bad 20 plus POB. If it's where I think it's gone in I think the salvage will be near impossible due to the depth of the water. Let's just hope and pray that there are some survivors.

Sad day for the aviation industry.

[engee]

Report is that 30 dead, only 4 survivors

[BBN RADAR]

This is indeed a tragedy. The good news is that the crew are reported to be OK. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the pax.

[engee]

Dash was full of families going to Madang for the graduation ceremony tomorrow.

[standard]

Terrible news, prayers go out to all involved.

Is there a link to this report?

[The Voice]

Plane carrying 32 crashes in PNG - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-13/plane-crashes-in-png/3570522)

condolences to those affected.

[engee]

This is the first report in print.

Fatal turbo-prop crash near Madang reported | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/10/13/breaking-news-dash-8-crash-near-madang/)

ABC have just reported as a headline

[ACT Crusader]

Tragedy. Just had it as a breaking news story confirming dead pax during PM Live on Sky News here in AUS.

[engee]

Both pilots, a PNG National and an expatriate, have survived, together with the hosty and only 1 passenger. Such tragedy and something that the industry, let alone Airlines PNG did not need.

[subsonic85]

Both pilots are expatriates, Male FA PNG Citizen

[beaver_rotate]

Initials please?? Can someone PM. Concerned for a few at APNG...

[subsonic85]

Capt B(W)S:FO CW

[Sounds of Then]

Just as Kokoda is still fresh in our minds,we are now faced with this,another tragedy. So sad to hear this news.
I hate to say it but how much longer are APNG going to be allowed to stay airborn now.?....enough is enough SW & BA.

Thoughts & prayers with APNG crews (many are friends) & relatives of the lost ones.

[gobbledock]

Bit early to sink the slipper in don't you think? The bodies aren't even cold and you want the airline pulled out of the air. How about waiting for some accurate facts to emerge, sh#t maybe even an investigation before sinking the boot into them?
Thoughts and condolences for all those mourning loved ones.

[engee]

The Sydney Telegraph reported....

"It is believed that a fire on board caused the crash."

[SpeedBrakeArmed]

Happen to know the tech crew well. Both are highly respected pilots with very significant experience.

They like all the APNG dash tech crew I've meet are first rate. Very sad day for every person touched by this traggic accident.

Lukim yu friends

[Dora-9]

Subsonic85:

Please tell me it's not BS, ex SFC at Maroochydore?

Thanks.

[Windy Chester]

Its just been reported that APNG will ground all its Dash 8 fleet

[BATTERED SAV]

Could someone tell me. I have an old mate with airlines PNG his initials are K.B. good old mate. Can anyone share some information as I would like to know if he is ok. Cheers

[subsonic85]

Dora-9
The answer to your question is yes, but I believe he has injuries but OK

[Dora-9]

I'm shocked and saddened - I worked with him at SFC and he's a very nice guy indeed....

Thanks for the response.

[NDVP]

POMSOX/MEDIA RELEASE
Port Moresby – 10.30pm, Thursday 13 October, 2011
AIRLINES PNG ANNOUNCMENT
We are sad to confirm that there has been an accident involving an Airlines PNG Dash 8
aircraft near Madang late Thursday afternoon.
Emergency services have been activated and Airlines PNG is co-operating with authorities
to mount rescue and recovery efforts.
There were 28 passengers and 4 crew members on board. There appear to be some
survivors while a number of people remain unaccounted for.
Airlines PNG is working with the emergency service authorities to confirm this information
in more detail.
A full investigation is underway by authorities and Airlines PNG as to the possible cause of
the accident.
Airlines PNG fully supports the action of local authorities at Lae who have quarantined
aviation fuel at Lae airport from where the aircraft originated.
Airlines PNG has also grounded its Dash 8 fleet of 12 aircraft until further notice.
Our prayers and thoughts are now with all those affected by this very sad day for Papua
New Guinea.
Ends/
For further information contact: [email protected]
ENDS...

[Ejector]

Just a reminder that the wx is possibly to have had nothing to do with it. Could have been a mechanical issue.

Lots of speculation and not much fact at the moment.

PNG Dash 8 plane crash | NZ pilot survives as 28... | Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/5784198/NZ-pilot-survives-as-28-die-in-PNG-plane-crash)

AM - At least 28 dead in PNG plane crash 14/10/2011 (http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3339289.htm)

Australians feared among PNG dead - World News - World - General - Barossa & Light Herald (http://www.barossaherald.com.au/news/world/world/general/australians-feared-among-png-dead/2323628.aspx)

[tolakuma manki]

I am happy that you are so concerned of pilot who made command decision to ride the storm into Madang.
Me, my concern is for wantoks, about 10 I know personaly who couldn't/didn't get out of Dash 8

Na Narapella samting.... David find some money to investigate this one, and someone to help Sid

[NDVP]

Latest information identifies the aircraft as P2-MCJ (MSN 125) a DHC-8 102.

[NDVP]

Tolakuma Manki - The concern is obviously for all involved in this tragedy. Perhaps, while regretting the occurrence we should be grateful that there are survivors, not only for their sake but for the sake of finding out what really occurred and preventing it happening to anyone else. Let's not speculate at this stage.

[teresa green]

I forgot to add the Skipper did a sterling job in getting it down into the river bed and avoiding trees, he was in a severe thunderstorm, and really was up the creek in everyway. A terrible thing for this fine pilot to cope with. He gave it his all.

[WMUOSF]

Well said TG.
My thoughts to all involved.

[E&H]

Tolakuma Manki...very sorry to hear that...my thoughts are with all concerned...although I am still a relative newcomer to PNG (3 Years now) I know how hard this will hit...terrible terrible news...teresa green thanks for that...

[ozangel]

The male FA - anyone know his initials? Was he formerly at PX?

[walgi]

I have heard it was a F/A by the name Kappi. Hope they are up and well again soon.

[teresa green]

Tolakuma, olosem sore tu hia belong balus. Mipela wusat rantap in PNG holim belong yupela pen.

[Ejector]

Could you please also translate into English if possible?

[ozangel]

Thanks Walgi. Likewise.

[ResumeOwnNav]

My thoughts are with all concerned in this tragedy. A very sad day.

F/A's initials are KE.

Very tragic news.

Nav.

[Sounds of Then]

FA's name is kapi,a quiet spoken young PNG national,a cheerfull hard working likable kid in his mid to late 20's. Well respected by all & made a great cup of coffee....any wantok's with news on his health please post here,many of us dimdim's (white/expats) would very much appreciate knowing.
Thoughts & prayers to all in PNG.Stap easy na lukim upela behind algeta.

[teresa green]

Off course. The translation from pidgin to english is "We are sorry to hear of your aircraft going in. We, who have flown in PNG feel your pain'". Anyone who has lived and worked in PNG have nothing but deep affection and gratitude for the time spent there. I had 8 wonderful years there, with TAA, and remain friends with some both expats and natives to this day. PNG is hard flying country, and is the best training any pilot can have. My admiration and good wishes go to the Capt and F/O, a sterling job in the terrain I know so well. My sympathies go to the families of those that did not survive, also something I have seen many times before.

[NDVP]

POMSOX/MEDIA RELEASE
Port Moresby – Friday October 14th 2011

AIRLINES PNG PLEDGES TOTAL SUPPORT FOLLOWING MADANG TRAGEDY

Airlines PNG today pledged its total commitment to establish the cause of yesterday’s tragic accident near Madang, and do whatever needs to be done to support the families of those lost.

"Today we join with the mourning and the sadness of the entire nation, in this truly dreadful day for PNG and its people", said APNG spokesman, Erastus Kamburi.

The company has established there was an emergency situation onboard its Dash-8 aircraft, on approach to Madang airport. It has also been confirmed there was bad weather in the area at the time. The crew attempted to conduct a controlled emergency landing but the aircraft broke up on impact. Part of the fuselage caught fire.

Despite attempts by crew to assist in the rescue, 28 passengers died at the scene. It is believed all the deceased are PNG nationals.
Airlines PNG is actively working with authorities for the repatriation of the victims to their families.

We can confirm that Capt Bill Spencer, First Officer Campbell Wagstaff, Flight Attendant Kapi Eria, and one passenger survived the accident.

64 year-old Capt Spencer is a former A310 Captain. He has in excess of 45 years flying experience-including 35 years in PNG. First Officer Wagstaff has over 2,500 hours flying experience.

The company has initiated an investigation in co-ordination with PNG authorities and both the aircraft and engine manufacturers. Transport Canada will also be involved as the regulatory authority for the state in which the aircraft was manufactured. The investigation will be wide-ranging: including areas such as weather, fuel, any possible mid-air fire or any mechanical issues. The company has grounded its remaining 11 Dash-8 aircraft until it is satisfied there are no safety issues with the fleet.

Mr Kamburi said: "This is our commitment to the people of PNG, the families of those lost, and the survivors of this terrible tragedy: we will give you our total support in the days and months ahead. We will do whatever is needed to find the answers as to what happened and to share those answers with you all."

For further information contact: [email protected]
PNG Media: Andrew Johnson +675 768686 0123 Intl Media: Lee Anderson +675 71939251

[HANOI]

Terrible news , know Cpt Bill well.

Hope Sid O'Toole is given all the funding and support he needs for this investigation.

[tolakuma manki]

Teresa Green
olosem sore tu hia belong balus. Mipela wusat rantap in PNG holim belong yupela pen.

Yu mi wun bel, tenku tru.

[teresa green]

Tailwind, its obvious the crew are traumatised and have no idea what really happened here. Therefore the posting of info that came from PNG has no bearing and should be iqnored. Please remove, thanks.

[macdonaldjames93]

Very sad news to hear about what happen, My heart goes out to the families and friend of those who have lost their love ones, relieve to hear that the crew survived this time so they can shed some light on what happen.
Dont know the Capt & F/O all that well they were still doing their line training when I cross the road.
Its sad to see on TV the wreckage of MCJ still in smoke, it was my favorite in the whole fleet.
To the wantoks bilong mi still in APNG be strong my brothers
Ofa Atu
MJ

[ZuluOscar90]

The black boxes have been retrieved this morning and the weather is now clear at the site so the investigation can begin.
condolences to all the staff at APNG and those affected by this tragedy.

[KRUSTY 34]

Saw footage of the crash site on the news. At least one prop appears to be feathered. Something abnormal befell this crew. Hopefully they get to the bottom of it. :confused:

[johhny chopper]

Well done to the crew, you did your best. Crap fuel out of Lae/Nabzab..

[Waghi Warrior]

Crap fuel in Nadzab ? Why don't we stop guessing and wait for the authorities to make an accurate judgement on exactly what happened.

[Ejector]

Very sad for the victims and the fiends and family's of them. I really don't think you can feel their huge pain without seeing these grieving folks. It is kind of anonymous for most of us. It really is very sad and I hope all possible assistance is offered at this terrible time.

I would also ask, regarding the crew, to put your self into this situation, and how would you feel with wild rumours being reported as truth. Clearly, lots of **** went down very fast in very testing conditions. Rumors help no one except give jurno's ammunition to sell news papers. Lets hope a proper investigation is done, and they have the crew and the data recorders to help with this, the it is very likely that a proper investigation will be done, not like the days of old in PNG. Please put your self on the other side of the fence when posting, presume the grieving families of unfortunate victims that perished in what would have been a terrifying final few mins are also reading this as well.
Best wishers for all unfortunate soles involved.


Pilots from Australia and NZ survive PNG plane crash which kills 28 | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/a-dash-8-plane-crash-near-madang-papua-new-guinea-is-understood-to-have-killed-28-people/story-e6frg6so-1226167107965)

Plane crash survivors flown to PNG capital - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-14/plane-crash-survivors-flown-to-png-capital/3572476)

Top Stories (http://m.ctv.ca/topstories/20111014/papua-new-guinea-plane-crash-111014.html)

Bad fuel suspected in PNG air tragedy | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/bad-fuel-suspected-in-png-air-tragedy/story-e6frg6so-1226167131555)
A Lae-based Australian businessman, who had left the aircraft just hours before the crash, said bad fuel was the likely cause.

The businessman - a long-time resident of PNG - played down strong rain in the area as a cause, saying sudden changes in weather were a fact of life for PNG pilots. The Australian News paper reporting??? :mad:

[giamann]

NDVP -agree 100% - lets wait for more info and the facts.

[TWT]

Uncertain wait for PNG crash identification - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-15/uncertain-wait-for-png-crash-identification/3572904)

:{

[blackhand]

At least one prop appears to be feathered.
Saw that tonight on TV footage, although I could see only one blade.

RIP

BH

[Capt Fathom]

Crap fuel out of Lae/Nabzab..

Amazing how far you can get on crap fuel these days!

The aeroplane has crashed, and some are speculating over an apparent feathered prop/blade amongst the wreckage.

From that, I guess you could say it must of caught fire on the way down. Well just look at that burnt fuselage... :ugh:

[Jabawocky]

Theresa Green had a very concise post as if he had spoken with the pilot and maybe an old mate.......post vannished. probably too close to the truth.

Whats the story TG?

[Ejector]

Actually what TG said is the most logical as well in my opinion. I am glad he deleted it though. One death is one to many, RIP.

But after an horrific accident like this, one life surviving is better than non.

What TG said sounds like your worse nightmare. I hope the company though everything they can at helping the victims families, what a stressful time for all.

[PA39]

Bloody tradgedy....the bloke is at the pointy end of his brilliant career and this happens. He will spend the remaining years of his life, not reminiscing the great days in aviation but rather the lost souls of this accident....the ship of which he was in command, I feel terribly for all concerned. :(

[blackhand]

The aeroplane has crashed, and some are speculating over an apparent feathered prop/blade amongst the wreckage.

From that, I guess you could say it must of caught fire on the way down. Well just look at that burnt fuselage... Apologise for upsetting you.
All in PNG are waiting to find what happened and I guess look for evidence from the crash site.
A propellor in feather does indicate something other than operating normally at time of accident.

BH

[outnabout]

In a news report broadcast yesterday on Ch9's Today Show, I was stunned to hear Miss Dollybird Reporter state quite confidently that it would be one month before the crew would be returning to the cockpit on normal flying duties.

Really?? One WHOLE month???

The Daft Tart.

My sympathies to the crew & families involved - this is a dark day, indeed.

[Aerodynamisist]

Bad fuel ? isn't it standard procedure to quarantine fuel from the departure/refuel point in cases such as this ?

[Cravenmorehead]

They did immediately. Not sure about now.

[my oleo is extended]

My sources tell me there were doubts about fuel quality in Lae several weeks before this accident.
Doesn't mean that fuel contamination is the cause, but the fuel facility was quarantined after the crash......Time will tell.

[sheppey]

There were media reports that witnesses said a violent storm was in progress at the time of the accident. Was the storm in the approach path?

[blackhand]

My sources tell me there were doubts about fuel quality in Lae several weeks before this accident.Is this true? There is only drum stock at Lae, used by helicopter operator, Dash8 has great short field capability but cannot hover.It is important that RUMOUR has some truth in it. Nadzab is the airstrip used by fixed wing.
Surely the several operators refueling with AVTUR at Nadzab would have known of this. APNG would not use "suspect" fuel and would have flight planned accordingly.

Was the storm in the approach path? Would a pilot with so much expeience in PNG operations elect to do a letdown through a voilent storm?
And to all at APNG, be of strong heart.
BH

[dhavillandpilot]

Can anyone tell, Capt Bill Spencer, is also an engineer? I remember a Bill Spencer who use to work at Camden in the 1980's.

Not morbid curosity but more keeping track with past aquaintances and fellow airmen

[VolLibre]

From Radio New Zealand International

But the first secretary to the Minister for Civil Aviation, Levai Wama, says it already looks like there was a mechanical fault on the plane.
“Based on the information that the pilot gave to the towers which was there’s smoke coming out of the engines and we’re running out of power, doing a forced landing, that’s what they said, which resulted in it crash landing.” Levai Wama says a team from Canada representing the airframe manufacturers and engine makers are doing their own investigations.


PNG crash: Pilot saw smoke, attempted emergency landing (http://www.rnzi.com/pages/news.php?op=read&id=63786)

[BBN RADAR]

Bad fuel is no longer a suspect:

PNG Accident Investigation Commission chief executive officer David Inau also ruled out the contamination theory put forward by a Lae businessman which The Australian newspaper reported at the weekend.

Diezmann said the bad fuel theory was ruled out because another 15 aircraft also refuelled at Nadzab Airport, Lae, from the same batch of aviation fuel last Thursday.
He said initial testing and analysis of the fuel confirmed that the fuel supplied to the aircraft in Lae fully complied with specifications.
Diezmann said comprehensive testing has now been completed by a specialist independent laboratory and consequently CASA had cleared the company’s refuelling operations.

I'm very disappointed with the Australian for running with that story. What sort of authority did this Lae businessman have on the matter? They didn't think about that and just decided to take a punt and go with it... shoddy journalism.

@ dhavillandpilot, Bill Spencer has never been an engineer. He was flying for Air Niugini all through the 80s.

[Ejector]

I agree, shoddy reporting on steroids.

I am sure there are some very experienced & smart people involved with this investigation, that will work out what happened. Lets wait for them to do their job.

[KRUSTY 34]

You're not thinking of Bill Cooper are you dhavillandpilot? I think he was at Camden during the 80's, also taught at Sydney Tech during the same period.

[TunaBum]

For Info:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgad.nsf/0/32382467d7e0d3c286257065005c6c82/$FILE/2005-13-35.pdf

TB

[Kiwiconehead]

Dash 8 has triggers under each power lever that must be lifted to move below flight idle gate.

There are 3 options with regard to prevention of beta operation in flight.

The AD above refers to the beta lockout mechanism which prevents the movement below flight idle in flight. This is only mandatory for FAA certified aircraft - not in Australasia

There is also an option of just a beta warning horn which sounds a warning siren if the triggers are lifted.

Third option is none of the above.

[TunaBum]

Kiwiconehead,

So the power levers can not be moved below the flight idle gate in flight, without lifting the triggers and the siren sounding?

Are the "triggers" and the "beta lockout mechanism" one and the same thing?

TB :confused:

[blackhand]

This is only mandatory for FAA certified aircraft - not in Australasia
Country of origin AD/s are MANDATORY in PNG and Australia,

[cnic]

This is a Canadian produced airframe not USA. Thus the FAA have no authority for this mod. This is Transport Canada's baby thus why they have sent people to png.

[Kiwiconehead]

So the power levers can not be moved below the flight idle gate in flight, without lifting the triggers and the siren sounding?

The power levers cannot be moved below flight idle at any time on air or ground without lifting the triggers.

If the beta warning system or beta lockout system is fitted a siren will sound when either trigger is lifted with weight off wheels and above 20ft radalt

Are the "triggers" and the "beta lockout mechanism" one and the same thing?

No.

"beta lockout mechanism" is not a great description. Comes from the AD requiring a "mechanism: , ie a way to, to prevent operation in beta in flight.

It is actually an electrical circuit which will activate to coarsen the blade pitch when low blade angle ( = high rpm) is detected. It works by actuating the feather solenoid to cause the prop to move toward feather, when blade angle has coarsened the required amount the solenoid deactuates and the blade will move fine again triggering the beta function again so it will move coarse/fine/coarse/fine in a small range. The ground range lights for the respective engine will be cycling at this stage on the pilots glareshield.

I'm not that familiar with beta lockout as of the 40 odd dash 8s i've worked on over the years, i've only seen one with it fitted, like i said, not mandatory in Australasia - although maybe not for much longer.


BTW - all this above is how the system works on a serviceable aircraft.

I'm not postulating any whys with relation to the accident, I don't even know which option was fitted, if any.

[TunaBum]

Thanks Kiwiconehead,

Very informative.

It will be interesting to if any of this is relevant once the proper investigations are completed.....

TB

[blackhand]

@kiwiconehead
Yes, thanks for the explanation.
Are you able to tell me:
When are the throttles retarded to the beta gate during flight?
Is there a secondary prop OS governer like on King Air?

BH

[Jabawocky]

Not sure if this is 100% correct although it came from a reliable colleague of the Captain, but they had a prop overspeed on one engine, and while securing that the other flamed out. Tried to relight but heights and speeds conspired against them and the ditching followed.

No doubt there are a lot more details, and perhaps this is not quite accurate, but a slightly different version of events to contemplate.

[blackhand]

‘Over speed’ may have caused crash

By GEOFFREY THOMAS
Aviation Editor
The West.com.au

Investigators are focusing on possible component failure for the loss of both engines on the Dash 8-102 which crashed while approaching Madang on October 13, killing 28 passengers.
The Airlines PNG plane was on a flight from Lae to Madang with 32 passengers and crew and there were only four survivors including the Australian captain and New Zealand first officer.
According to a source in Australia, investigators are looking at the possibility that the plane’s propellers went into an over-speed condition, causing the engines to fail, because of an alleged failure of a restricting gate for the throttles when they are put into idle. The engines apparently failed soon after the pilots started their descent.
According to the source there was a previous similar failure in 2006 involving Wideroe Airline in Norway, although only one engine stopped delivering power.
Captain Bill Spencer (64), who was flying the Airlines PNG plane, was one of the airline’s most experienced pilots, with 35 years in New Guinea and 18,000 hours flying experience, while First Officer Campbell Wagstaff had more than 2500 hours flying experience.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau has examined the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder and has apparently found that there were no maintenance issues with the plane and determined that weather was not a factor. The ATSB has also found no fault with the pilots.
The mechanical or component failure has been alluded to by New Guinea’s first secretary to the Minister for Civil Aviation, Levai Wama.
“Based on the information that the pilot gave to the towers which was there’s smoke coming out of the engines and we’re running out of power doing a forced landing, that’s what they said, which resulted in it crash landing,” Mr Wama said.
However the fact that both engines failed points to the over-speed theory.
Comment is being sought from Bombardier the manufacturer of the plane.
Airlines PNG declined to comment.

[Waghi Warrior]

Just remeber guys the AIC are running this investigation not the ATSB. If the information didn't come from the AIC the information is sh!t.

[Ejector]

With reference to post #82, (two above).

Flame out, multiple over speed suggested, more as a tech question , rather than per this accident, with the 102's, is a fuel topping governor the last resort in these PTS donks ?

I really don't know?

This is not an alliteration, just a query. :)

[Hugh Jarse]

Spot on the money Kiwiconehead, as always :ok:

Blackhand, when you wrote "retarded to beta gate" - did you mean the flight idle stops? If so, it's quite normal to be at, or very near the flight idle stops on a 2:1 descent when at, or near Vmo. At other times, of course flight idle may be necessary for quick speed reduction (though normally in conjunction with Condition Levers MAX).

I can't quote on this particular instance, but in 13 years of flying the Dash, I have never head of a failure of a power lever trigger, nor of any inadvertent activation of same in flight.

[reallyoldfart]

De Havilland Pilot,

I think the engineer you mentioned may have been Bill Spence - he was with Airfast for a while in PNG as well as Camden

[olderairhead]

Thought I would post the following article from radio australia which implies differently to the above post.

Papua New Guinea's Civil Aviation and Safety Authority says results from an investigation into a fatal plane crash could have implications for the world's fleet of Dash 8 aircraft.

Twenty-eight people died when the Airlines PNG Dash 8 crashed near the coastal town Madang earlier this month.

The company grounded all its craft of that model.

David Inau, from PNG's Accident Investigation Commission, says officials are preparing the preliminary report.

"The airworthiness inspection of all the records, what maintenance was done on the aircraft, is still going on," Mr Inau said.

"And if there are any findings of any airworthiness issues, it may have implications to this type of aircraft worldwide."

[Kiwiconehead]

Anyone got a copy of the AD they can post up?

[cnic]

The press release on the APNG website from Simon wild says that in time this will be a world wide change.

[Waghi Warrior]

I read a press release that APNG wrote in the PNG papers stating that the accident was caused by component failure.

I really wonder how they could have come up with such a conclusion considering that the authorities haven't even released a preliminary yet.

Did any one else see this press release ?

[NDVP]

Waghi,
Text of release below. I agree, it seems a little premature. Yesterday's National newspaper actually ran with similar info yesterday, including the cost of the component required to fix the problem, and the man hours required to fit it! That National article is inserted here below the APNG press release.

A STATEMENT TO ALL THOSE WHO FLY WITH US
____________________________________________________________ _______________________________
You will have heard by now that Airlines PNG has been given the ‘all clear’ to return its Dash 8 aircraft to service, with flights resuming today Friday, 28 October 2011.
We want everyone to know that while we all still grieve following the recent accident in Madang, you can have total confidence when you fly with Airlines PNG.

This not just us saying we’re safe. Since the accident, CASA PNG has led a team involving overseas experts from regulatory authorities in Australia and Canada together with representatives of the people who build the plane and make the engines.

The absolute safety of our aircraft and our systems has been confirmed through their tireless efforts. We have always been confident that the integrity of our safety practices would be confirmed by rigorous scrutiny. While a full investigation continues to be carried out, early evidence points to a failure of a component on the aircraft through no fault of the airline, the pilots, or anyone else at Airlines PNG. It caused a loss of power to both engines, leaving the flight crew with no alternative other than to attempt an emergency landing. We have been assured that such a component failure can in no way be attributed to any maintenance practice, or operational procedures over which Airlines PNG has responsibility. Action is now being taken to make sure it cannot happen again, not only on our Dash-8 aircraft, but by those also flown by others in PNG and around the world.

Airlines PNG provides a vital service to everyone in PNG. We also know that people need to have confidence every time they board an aircraft, whether it’s operated by us or anyone else. We believe you can have that confidence when you fly with us.
We will continue to work with the official regulators to make sure all our aircraft, our
engineering and maintenance staff, and our pilots meet the highest world aviation
standards. Every day, our people work hard to deliver your safety, and they will continue to do that too.

The safety authorities have carried out the most thorough and rigorous investigation and tests, and they have established beyond doubt that our aircraft are absolutely safe to fly. They would not let us operate unless they had total confidence in our aircraft, our pilots, and our engineering and maintenance standards.
You can have absolute confidence in Airlines PNG: our aircraft, our equipment, and our people.
The Team at Airlines PNG

FROM "THE NATIONAL" 28th October 2011
AIRLINES PNG Dash 8 aircraft have returned to service but on strict conditions.
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) PNG yesterday cleared the 11 aircraft following preliminary findings of the investigations into the catastrophic Dash 8 crash of Oct 13 in Madang in which 28 out of 32 people on board perished.
The directive required more frequent inspections and test on the propeller governor and power lever systems and, within 120 days, the installation of components that will ensure a failure that occurred in Madang is not repeated.
The new parts will cost US$20,000 per aircraft and some 120 man hours to install in each aircraft.
As more information becomes available, CASA (Australia), which had been monitoring the investigations in PNG with interest, might apply the same airworthiness directive to include Australian operators of Dash 8.
APNG announced it had already placed orders for the parts with Bombardier of Canada.
Civil Aviation Minister Puri Ruing said CASA’s decision was made in consultation with the aircraft manufacturer, Canadian authorities and the accident investigation commission.
Ruing said the CASA directive now required all Dash 8 operators, inclu­ding Air Niugini, to comply.
There are presently 21 Dash 8 aircraft operating in PNG owned mostly by APNG and Air Niugini.
While a preliminary investigation report has not been made available, it is understood the airworthiness directive affected Dash 8 series 100, 200 and 300 aircraft operating in PNG.
It is understood that a component failure on the aircraft had caused the propellers to go too fast resulting in both engines failing.
This, initially, absolved Airlines PNG of any fault mechanical or human error.
Airlines PNG said yesterday its grounded fleet had undergone extensive maintenance checks and would resume both charter and passenger ope­rations today.
“Airlines PNG have been very cooperative with the authority to make the necessary safety changes to their operations in order for the authority to allow the return of their Dash 8 fleet to service,” Ruing said.
“This return-to-service will be in a progressive manner over the next two weeks and has some imposed conditions pertaining to operational procedures and training.”
Ruing said these were the imme­diate steps being taken in the interests of aviation safety, however, further safety action could be required as more information became available.
The authority, assisted by CASA Australia, would continue to monitor the safety performance of the airline through audits and surveillance.
Airlines PNG chairman Simon Wild said: “We thank the safety authorities for their tireless efforts which have confirmed the safety of our aircraft and systems.
“We have always been confident that the integrity of our safety practices would be confirmed by rigorous scrutiny.”
“While a full investigation is continuing, preliminary evidence pointed to a component failure through no fault of the airline which resulted in
the loss of power to both engines,
leaving the flight crew with no alternatives but to attempt an emergency landing.
“In accordance with recommendations from the safety authorities, steps have been taken to ensure such failure did not take place on any of our aircraft, and we understand that all other Dash 8 operators in PNG are implementing the same safeguards,” Wild said.

[KRUSTY 34]

I dunno' guys, something here doesn't gel?

Clearly a serious abnormality befell this crew. One of 2 things then happened. Either the crew mishandled the situation, (and I am not saying for one minute this is the case), or there were failures that left the crew with no other choice than to conduct a forced landing.

Now everyone knows that if it's mechanical it can fail. However, according to the airline release we have a completely unforeseen failure in an aircraft type that has been in service for more than a quarter century. In that time the type has been the subject of ongoing AD's, mods to both the aicraft and SOP's, and a depth of knowledge in systems and operating procedures that frankly should cover nearly all the bases. We then have a situation that results in the crew being left with no choice but to put her down there and then. This suggests a chain of events probably never seen before, and according to the airline, something completely outside of their control?

One thing's for sure, the final report will be interesting reading.

[AlbatrosDVa]

PNG AD/DHC8/22 can be downloaded from:

Civil Aviation Safety Authority PNG (http://www.casapng.gov.pg/Airworthiness.html)

[beachbunny]

Have a fair amount of time on -8s, and can't recall any single component, (other than myself) that could simultaneously affect both engines..

If there is, there shouldn't be

[Kiwiconehead]

It gives all operators a short time to complete the installation of the FAA beta lockout system. Interesting that Transport Canada has not already required it, considering it came out in 2005.

The AD doesn't mention installation of Beta lockout, well the one I downloaded doesn't.

http://www.casapng.gov.pg/Downloads/ADs/PART%2039.21.pdf

I had heard that Beta Lockout with a 4 month compliance was in there, but the kits have a 4 month lead time, but it doesn't seem to be mentioned.

The MEL revisions are interesting. Effectively removes Autopilot from MEL as well as actually removing RADALT and the Beta Horn.

I'm not sure what the change to the autopilot MEL has to do with in flight operation in the Beta bange.

[NDVP]

With the exception of a simple placard installation AD/DHC8/22 makes absolutely no reference or allusion to the provision of any parts or components. It is concerned solely with revisions and amendments to documentation.

What then is the source of the "component failure" and "cost / man hours per airframe" quoted by the APNG release and The National newspaper respectively?

[Ejector]

Many people in Oz feel touched by this terrible accident. Many PNG families have been smashed.

I must admit, this is probably the most "profesional" or mature accident thread I have read on prune.

Good stuff. I thnk Crusty said it all.

[sunnySA]

A pair of over-spinning propellers is being investigated as the cause of a plane crash that killed 28 people in Papua New Guinea last month.

http://http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8370039/propellers-probable-cause-of-png-crash (http://http//news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8370039/propellers-probable-cause-of-png-crash)

[Waghi Warrior]

On a more positive point, the PNG AIC have released the preliminary accident report. I have no idea how one could get a copy as they don't appear to have a website, there is nothing on the ATSB website. Super Sid was interviewed yesterday and it was aired on the EMTV news last night. No mention was made of a pre impact onboard fire, although what Sid clearly stated was that both engines appeared to loose all power due to both the props over speeding up to 60% over max RPM simultaneously.

He also indicated that the investigation team still have not pinpointed the root cause of the prop over speeds.

[Ejector]

SunnySA, In your link 2 post above, pls re edit your link, tip, remove the first http:// that you doubled up. Easy to do :ok:

[teresa green]

Mate, go easy, you are assuming, you are also opening yourself to possible libel, nobody knows yet what happened, assume all you like but you know the ol saying 'put it in anything, but don't put it in writing". I checked out a captain in PNG and the very next day he flew into a mountain killing all on board, forty years later, I still sometimes have trouble dealing with it. What did I miss? These two pilots will be going thru hell, they need support, and whilst your anger is directed at the company, and I fully understand your distress, for their sake, close ranks, and wait and see.

[tolakuma manki]

Overspeed both props? At the same time? In a Dash 8? No way!
This is what some pilots at Aero Club are saying as well.
Yet no proof of what really happened.
The families of the deceased want to know if was the aircraft or pilot

[frigatebird]

We ALL want to know that.. Why put it in writing here?
Do you just want Pay-Back..? Don't go off all emotional, - if lessons can be learned from this, that will avoid something similar happening to another operator, ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, give the experts a run.
While we feel your pain, - get over it, move on, and wait for an expert analysis.
That takes time, and 'Expert' sifting of the factors involved, if we are All to find out the real reasons for this tragedy.

[Much Ado]

This thread is getting VERY close to being locked - any more posts like those that have been deleted and it will be locked and the miscreants binned.

[SIUYA]

Fair comment Much Ado.

Although, having read the offending post before it was deleted, I'd like to say that I read the post as a statement of opinion, and not one of fact.

Others may have differed? Never mind.

Perhaps this little 'episode' should be a reminder to all of us that:

To be certain that you will never be liable to pay damages for libel, you should refrain from writing, printing or publishing or distributing any written matter of whatsoever nature.

UK lawyer Peter Carter-Ruck

That's just my opinion though. ;)

[my oleo is extended]

I have read the preliminary report and will not comment in too much detail, but suffice to say that at 1717 the aircrafts overspeed warning sounded. Very shortly afterwards BOTH props simultaneously oversped and exceeded their maximum rpm by in excess of 60%.
Witnesses on the ground reported hearing a loud 'bang' as this occurred. The flight crew shut down both engines.
Preliminary CVR transcript, sound spectrum plot, FDR plots and data listings have been supplied to the investigative team.
Ongoing investigation activities are continuing in the area of engine and prop assemblies, recorded information and maintenance documentation and procedures.

Hopefully this will at least steady some of the emotion on this thread before it gets closed.

[tolakuma manki]

Do you just want Pay-Back..? Don't go off all emotional,Sori tru, for making you upset.
If you understood kinship you would not make stupid comment about payback.
Mi nogat bebi sense belon dispela balus i go bagarap.
Oli man laik save sumting bai taim Dash 8 pundown.

While we feel your pain, Yupla nogat save long pein belong country man blong mi.
And I wish a speedy recovery to David Inau, in hospital

[Ejector]

Please post in English.

[illusion]

He is posting in English- Pidgin English :p

[BVI Boy]

Wanpela man istap long UAE pelim pein long ol PNG wantok. sori tru long balus I bagarap.

If you lived in PNG you would not need to ask for posts in English. The people of PNG are devastated by this accident, bring on the Niugini Pidgin.

Lukim yu.

[tail wheel]

Harim tok bilong mi - ol man na meri, Missus na Masta ikam long PPRuNe inogot save long tok Pisin.

Long dispela hap - ENGLISH is the language of this Forum! :=

[tolakuma manki]

Sori tru long taily, mi wokim lik lik tok save long wunpela pusspuss man, Pinis nau.
I will post in English in future.

[hoss]

Wow, I'm on about my fifth beer and it all makes sense!

Gold.;)

[Break Right]

Agree Hoss, spent 3 years flying in PNG and only understood what they were saying after 6 x SP(local beer).:O:O

[blackhand]

Does anyone have access to the Investigation report as I can't find it?

Cheers
BH

[my oleo is extended]

Does anyone have access to the Investigation report as I can't find it?
Blackhand, the prelim report has been finalised but not released publicly yet, it will be shortly.
In the meantime please refer to my below post, you will find out in due course that this sums up accurately the invstigation thus far, limited in scope and detail, but the guts of the investigation so far are as I have posted.
At 1717 the aircrafts overspeed warning sounded. Very shortly afterwards BOTH props simultaneously oversped and exceeded their maximum rpm by in excess of 60%.
Witnesses on the ground reported hearing a loud 'bang' as this occurred. The flight crew shut down both engines.
Preliminary CVR transcript, sound spectrum plot, FDR plots and data listings have been supplied to the investigative team.
Ongoing investigation activities are continuing in the area of engine and prop assemblies, recorded information and maintenance documentation and procedures.
A reliable source has advised me that the loud bang heard by the eyewitnesses was likely the blade tips cracking the sound barrier. This would match up with the excess overspeed, but is only speculation at this point.

[blackhand]

Very shortly afterwards BOTH props simultaneously oversped and exceeded their maximum rpm by in excess of 60%.Control Rigging???? Had a Nomad do it on power run when Beta control rigged incorrectly
BH

[SIUYA]

Over-speeding’ propellers blamed for Dash 8 disaster

Source: The National, Monday 07th November 2011

By JASON GIMA WURI

THE fatal Airlines PNG Dash 8 crash on Oct 13 near Madang was caused by the “over-speeding” of both propellers, a preliminary report of the Papua New Guinea Accident Investigation Commission has found.

The commission said the propellers exceeded their maximum permitted revolutions per minute by more than 60%.

It said because of this there was a loud “bang” which witnesses on the ground reported hearing.

The flight crew then shut down both engines.

“At 5.17pm the crew made a mayday call to air traffic control and indicated they were having an in-flight emergency and that both engines had stopped.

“Madang tower then declared a search and rescue phase, believing the aircraft was about to ditch into the ocean.

“But the aircraft landed on a sparsely timbered terrain on the northern side of the Buang River, 33km southeast of Madang town, killing 28 of the 32 people on board.”

The report said that on impact, the plane was badly damaged while colliding with trees and the ground and an intense fuel-fed fire started.

Villagers who had heard and seen the aircraft in the final stages of its descent rushed to the crash site to find the fuselage engulfed in flames.

They then helped the four survivors and took them to the nearest aid post.

The preliminary report was released last Friday by the commission’s acting chief exec*utive officer Sid O’Toole, who said they had met the requirement for a preliminary report to be ready within 30 days.

It said the pilot in command, 64, and his 40-year-old first officer had 18,200 flying hours and 2,750 flying hours respectively, with both holding valid PNG airlines transport pilot licences.

The report said the flight progressed normally and flight P2-MCJ was transferred to Madang air traffic control at 5.10pm on descent into Madang.

“The descent profile on this sector was steep because of the proximity of the Finisterre Ranges to Madang and the pilot, who was the handling pilot, was hand-flying the aircraft because the autopilot was unserviceable.”

The report said the pilot was manoeuvring the aircraft visually to avoid cloud and thunderstorms.

At 5.12pm, in response to a request from Madang tower, the flight crew stated that the aircraft was 24 nautical miles from Madang, leaving 13,000ft on descent.

O’Toole said: “The Dash 8 has a turbine engine which runs through a gear box and it runs through the propellers and over-speed caused self-destruction.

“The investigations have been supersonic and we thank Prime Minister Peter O’Neill for visiting the site and we are glad that O’Neill has made a commitment to release funds to complete the investigation,” he said.

“We thank TropicAir for their help in this time.”

Civil Aviation Minister Puri Ruing thanked the commission, the Aviation Transport Safety Bureau of Australia, the Transport Safety Board of Canada, aircraft manufacturer Bombardier, engine manufacturer Pratt and Whitney, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority of PNG (CASA) and Airlines PNG for their cooperation and help in enabling the investigation to progress efficiently and effectively, resulting in the preliminary report being issued in under 30 days.

[Torres]

Sid is a very capable engineer and competent accident investigator with more years PNG experience than I remember.

I would be very confident that, suppirted by the "Transport Safety Board of Canada, aircraft manufacturer Bombardier, engine manufacturer Pratt and Whitney", in the fullness of time we will see a very comprehensive and authoritive report on the accident.

[Waghi Warrior]

Prelim report now on the ATSB website.

Rumour going around that the prop RPMs exceeded well and truly over 60% of 1200 RPM. The figures that I heard these props got to are incrediable if what I heard is true. Really goes to show how how rock solid Bombardiar have made these machines in anycase. Pure Canadian muscle if you ask me !

[frigatebird]

Really goes to show how how rock solid Bombardiar have made these machines in anycase. Pure Canadian muscle if you ask me !

Need to be a lot stronger to take on PNG rocks after a glide approach though..

[Jabawocky]

To get 60% over speed on both engines, assuming a malfunction of technology is not involved, what would you have to do to get that? VNE or more? Or is it fairly easy to do?

[Capt Claret]

As this is a Rumour Network, a little birdie told me that there may have been an accidental selection of reverse, in flight. Prohibited in the AFM, obviously, if the rumour is true, for good reason.

My own Dash days are so far in the past that I don't remember the system but do remember the limitation.

[Hugh Jarse]

I flew the Dash for about 12 years. About 3 of those without a beta warning horn system. Around 1999(?) Bombardier introduced the beta warning horn, incorporated into the throttle triggers.

The triggers at the flight idle gate prevent the power levers from moving into discing mode (from memory, a beta mode). At the back of discing is a detent (not a gate), then you move into reverse mode.

In the background info distributed at the time, it was emphatically stated that the selection of discing in flight (inadvertent or otherwise) could lead to a complete loss of propeller control. Hence the introduction of the beta warning horn system. The prohibition in the AFM has always been so, and was re-emphasised in the bulletin.

Jabber, even at VMO with the condition levers at max, a normally functioning prop governor on the PW120 series engine will keep the prop at around 1200rpm. It's not an issue. In climb, cruise, descent and till late approach - the props are running at 900 or 1050rpm. Max isn't normally selected until late final.

Interesting..........

[frigatebird]

20 years ago, we operated a couple of ATR-42-300's on the 110 mile sector Nausori - Labasa. Labasa then was sealed and 1050 metres long, without fuel availability, and we used the factory provided data for the strip and terrain when planning departures to cater for a single engine climb to LSALT on departure. Temperatures precluded full passenger seating and limitations sometimes for departures in summer. It was the shortest runway in our network then.
Remember one occasion, when planning to shortfield land, with the hand on the levers ready to pull reverse as soon as the mains touched, I must have started the retarding while still a foot or two up. (With the trailing-link undercarriage we would usually get smooth touchdowns - different to the Dash even though we shared the same PW 120 engines and HS props)
Wouldn't have reached reverse, but probably was back enough to make a difference, and then we were on the ground in a more-sudden-than-normal arrival.
A hands-on learning, and theory re-inforcing moment.
A 'Won't do That Again' moment, too.
Certainly wouldn't try it at altitude.

A Dash 8 passenger may have felt something from that arrival, but the old ATR took this new captains learning curves like that in it's stride.

[Ejector]

So it is very possible for a pilot of a 102 to select it into reverse in flight?

Not at all saying that happened here in this accident.

[Hugh Jarse]

Ejector,

When you pull the triggers on a Dash and move the power levers back, you have discing mode which, at the forward limit of travel will give you quite a bit of forward thrust. At the rear limit of travel (reverse detent), you will get either zero thrust, or a very slight reverse (depending on rigging).

Discing covers a range of about 2-4" of power lever travel AFT of the flight idle stops before you hit the reverse detent.

Once you retard the power levers aft of the flight idle stops (in flight), all bets are off. It does not require the selection of reverse to lose control of propeller governing. The selection of discing alone will achieve that nicely, and long before the reverse detent is reached.

Not that I'm suggesting this is what happened in this instance.

[Ejector]

Any update on this sad accident?

[Ejector]

Is there any more news on this tragic accident out yet?

[ResumeOwnNav]

I believe a report will be years away, sometime after Bombardier, Pratt & Whitney, Hamilton Standard and APNG have stopped pointing the finger at each other.

It will definately be interesting reading when published.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Warning: speculation engaged.

Mandate the fitment of the "Beta Lock Out" system, problem solved.

Speculation disengaged.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Wonder if it needs another event before Transport Canada mandate it?

I would think the ATSB will be placing the loaded gun firmly at the back of CASAs head about exactly that.

[Up-into-the-air]

I notice the release of an AD [CF-2012-01 - Beta Warning Horn System Failure] for the Dash 8 this week by casa.

But there still has been no similar AD to [FAA AD 2005-13-35] as issued in PNG after the Dash8 accident.

On looking at the casa AD list [ http://services.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/schedules/ad_display.asp?session=1684532759&pc=PC_90831&sched=over&toc=DHC-8] nor was there in 2005 an AD for the Dash8 [or similar to or reference to FAA AD 2005-13-35]

casa as the Regulator and safety body???

casa looking after passenger safety???

[Capt Claret]

I don't recall hearing of any incidents of airborne beta selection in my 5 years on the DH8 ('95-'00). I wonder what's happened that Mach12 has heard of so many in recent times?

[NCD]

Interestingly Bombardier released "All Operator Message No. 971" with the subject being:
In-Flight Intentional Power Lever Movement Aft of the Flight Idle Gate

In the body of the message Bombardier states:

"Bombardier hs become aware of instances where the flying pilot has intentionally moved the engine POWER Levers AFT of the FLIGHT IDLE gate in-flight". (bolding as per the message)

The message goes on to describe what happens should the above be done.

It would seem (at least on the basis of the message) that Bombardier does not see it as a design fault, but rather as an operating error.

Although, I do agree that a Beta Lockout device should be installed. At least it should stop an application aft of the flight idle gate, for whatever the reason.

BTW
I also understand that QFLink has had two similair events in the last three months, and Air Niugini has also had to replace an engine after something similiar occuring.


I guess PPRuNe would not be much of a rumour network if you can't make rumours and not need/deliver any facts, hey Mach 12. :=

[gobbledock]

I wouldn't be to quick to shoot down Mach 12 as he is right on the money and obviously well connected as well.
I know where you are coming from Mach and your 'rumor' is pretty damn good according to my source.

As the Kelpie would say 'more to follow'.

[Kiwiconehead]

Negatron on the Air Niugini engine replacement.

Not in the last 2 years anyway

Although, I do agree that a Beta Lockout device should be installed. At least it should stop an application aft of the flight idle gate, for whatever the reason.

Beta Lockout doesn't stop the power levers going below flight idle - just extends the protection envelope of the current "beta backup" system that stops the props going into beta above flight idle, to the below flight idle regime in flight as well.

[aussie027]

If Mach12's info is indeed correct the Q I have is why the hell are these events occuring, why would anyone attempt to move a power lever below Flt Idle in flight??? :uhoh::uhoh:

The turboprops I flew with TPE 331's required a deliberate lifting of the locking levers to go back into beta range. It was impossible to accidentally move the levers below the Flt Idle stop without doing so.
Does the Dash 8 have a similar setup??

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

Aussie27, what you said re the TPE's is not exactly true; I was a junior F/O flying Metro 2's a few years back. One fine day as we were entering the circuit at the usual speed (Vmo minus about 5...) I was stunned when the skipper whipped the power levers past the idle stops. It was completely unintentional on his part - the whole throttle setup had become so worn over the many years in service that there was almost no pressure required to lift them over the gate.

Thankfully he reacted almost instantly and pushed them forward again, but in those couple of seconds the aircraft yawed all over the sky. Quite memorable.

I guess in hindsight that had he pulled them back gently, instead of smacking them back, it may well not have happened. But we tried it on the ground in much newer 23's and you couldn't do it even if you abused them (engineers were present).

It was the first thing I thought of when I read about the PNG crash. Those in the know might like to tell us whether power lever hardware wearing with time could cause unintentional movement aft of flight idle.

[Hugh Jarse]

Rad alt,
Some of the Dashes I flew had in excess of 30,000 hours total time. The power levers felt no different to those of a new one. You still needed to pull the triggers up a good 15+mm to release theflight idle gate. You only had to Lift one trigger a couple of mm to get the warning horn to sound.

Clarrie, I never experienced it eitherin all those years. But then again, Qantaslink never had a single stick shaker event on the Dash (from memory) until 2008.

Now it appears to be a regular occurrence :ugh:

[Ejector]

Interestingly Bombardier released "All Operator Message No. 971" with the subject being:
In-Flight Intentional Power Lever Movement Aft of the Flight Idle Gate

I can not find a link, do you have it?

[ampan]

On another thread (Paul Holmes / Erebus) there is a reference to this happening before - on a DC8 - in 1966.

[aussie027]

Rad ALT ALive,

That experience doesn't sound good at all.
I flew some very old aircraft as well, however wear that bad causing that to happen is more due to bad maintenance/inspection or some pilot at some point not reporting such operation as a possible fault needing investigation.
Engine controls are to be inspected for correct operation on certain phase inspections if I recall correctly.
As you said when you tried it on another aircraft not worn out below limits it was impossible to do accidently even when abusing them.

[NCD]

Ejector

sorry, no link. It was a hard coy that I read.

There was an email address for inquiries so you could try it for a copy. Address as follows.

[email protected]

[Kiwiconehead]

The AOMs are on the iflybombardier.com website if you have access otherwise i've stuck it up here.

http://www.filedropper.com/8aom971

I've been on Dash 8s for nearly 17 years and only seen a failure of the flight idle gate once. In that case the beta horn wouldn't sound either.

[Kiwiconehead]

Out of interest can you advise what caused the gate to fail?

Ironically - the failure was caused by the actuator for the beta warning horn microswitch bending and the gate was actually sitting on top of it.

Buggered if I know how it happened.

[VolLibre]

Investigations take time it is understood, but further news of the investigation of this accident is keenly awaited.

[gobbledock]

This one will take 12 months minimum. Possibly up to 18 months.
The bureaucratic pony pooh and layers of Political person(s) the final report has to go through is what generally adds to the timeframe unfortunately.

However, should, and I say should the airline itself be found to blame or be partially to blame for any reason such as cost cutting, lack of/inefficient training, corner cutting, safety issues, or any element of such nature then I hope the accountable mangers/directors are thrown in the big house. That is after all why the laws changed some time back and accountability as well as punitive measures can and should be considered against the accountable persons needs to be upheld.

Then again it could have been just a latent condition/design fault or simple pilot error.

[geeup]

In recent years has PNG ever closed an accident report?

As I don't remember any outcome to the Airlink accidents.

[diddly squat]

The report is in the top draw, only to be pulled out in the event of a future witch hunt.

[Kiwiconehead]

There is an All Operators Message from Bombardier dated 19th June saying that Transport Canada intends issuing an AD mandating Beta Lockout for all Dash 8s.

[teresa green]

I for one admire the tenacity and brilliance of both pilots, they took on the impossible, and a few survived. For that these blokes should be honored.:D

[Waghi Warrior]

Whist most people in the loop now know what happened, in my opinion this was a classic case of all the holes lining up before the event. In APNG's defence to my knowledge they acted very appropriately after the event in terms of assisting the investigators and implementing new procedures, which included a considerable amount of additional crew training that involved every pilot on their Dash 8 fleet.

Only expats have all the accidents (???????) That's a very derogatory statement, please qualify or remove it :mad:

[Waghi Warrior]

I see Sid O'Toole has retired. Any truth in the rumour that he may have been replaced by an ATSB person?

Very interesting moves if this is indeed the case.

[my oleo is extended]

An award did I here you say???

I found this unbelievable article online. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry?
My bolding……..
ARTICLE:
“We are naturally delighted with this award and take great pride in it on behalf of all our staff who have worked tirelessly to follow the airline’s safety program” said Gary Toomey the CEO of Airlines PNG, “We set extremely high standards for our staff in all aspects of the business and to have an independent organisation recognise the efforts being made is extremely gratifying. All those travelling with Airlines PNG can take comfort in the fact that their safety is our main priority”.
Larry Watson, Aviation Manager for EHL paid tribute to the staff of Airlines PNG. “Airlines PNG was chosen for this award because it has genuinely embraced Esso Highlands Limited’s high safety standards and delivers them consistently. Having policies and procedures regarding safety is one thing but ensuring that management support and staff work to these policies is the key. We are pleased to see the work done by Airlines PNG staff in ensuring safe work practices and continuous improvement is ingrained in the company culture.”
Airlines PNG is regularly audited by all of its resource customers in addition to annual audits conducted by PNG CASA, CASA Australia, Virgin Australia and the BARS flights safety foundation. This audit program is far more rigorous and demanding than audits conducted on other aviation providers in PNG and gives all passengers tangible proof of the airline’s commitment to safe air travel.
Full details of the Airlines PNG Safety Program can be found on Welcome to Airlines PNG-Home Page (http://www.apng.com)

I thought some additional background information was worthy of consideration. Especially when ‘safety awards’ are being handed out?

- Almost half of the deaths have occurred since 2009, over a 3 year period
- 3 of the accidents occurred during the 3 year period mentioned above
- Where is the accountability for all these deaths? Why aren’t Directors, Managing Directors and CEO’s sitting in the ‘big house’? Is that why there is shuffling of the deck chairs taking place recently?
- If you do your own research and look at the ownership of the airline, as well as the internal shufflings between APNG and ‘another Australian carrier’ you will see some interesting connections. The same ‘connection’ owns both airlines, also the APNG CFO has moved to the Australian carrier, the Australian carriers CEO has moved to APNG….Hmmmmm.

ADDITIONAL ARTICLE:

History of APNG Crashes
Source: Weekender, Post Courier, October 15 - 16, 2011

Airlines PNG, formerly Milne Bay Air (MBA) established and began operations in 1987.
Since then there have been numerous light aircraft incidents. Here are those that were reported over the years through the Post-Courier archives.

1991, November 30
- MBA Twin engine queen air
- Gurney Airport, Milne Bay
- Five hurt no fatalities
- Smoke appeared from right wing and pilot forced to make emergency landing
- Expatriate pilot broke leg

1992, December 15
- MBA Norman Britten Islander aircraft
- 6 dead, expatriate pilot and five passengers
- Crashed in mountains 10km north east of Alotau

1995, July 12
- MBA twin otter
- Exploded in air shortly after take-off at Gurney Airport
- 15 dead
- Investigations revealed kerosene leak in cargo section caused explosion

1996, May 11
- MBA Norman Britten Islander
- 1 death
- Crashed in trees near Oumba

1996, July 9
- Twin Otter
- 20 deaths
- Struck a mountain in cloudy conditions in Mendi

2004
- APNG twin otter
- Crashed in Goilala, Central Province
- 3 dead including expatriate pilot and nation female first officer, one survivor (Nati Ario – loadmaster)

2009, August 11
- APNG twin otter
- Crashed in bad weather in the Owen Stanley Ranges
- 6 nautical miles from Kokoda Airstrip
- 13 dead

2010, January 20
- APNG EMO twin otter
- Ran off runway while trying to take-off at Kikori Airstrip
- No fatalities, but aircraft suffered extensive damage

2011, October 13-
APNG Dash 8 headed for Madang
- Crashed at Transgogol in Madang
- 28 dead & 4 Survivors including the two pilots

And this is just one airlines statistics. Where is the accident report into the 2011 Dash 8 crash? How many more innocent lives will be lost in PNG? How many more pilots will be lost in PNG?????

And another article from not too far in the past, from the SMH:

PNG airline defends safety record
Date July 27, 2010
AAP

A Papua New Guinea airline has defended its safety record as the nation prepares for the first anniversary of the Kokoda plane crash that killed 13 people, including nine Australians.
Seven Victorians and two Queenslanders died when Airlines PNG (APNG) flight 4684 crashed en route to Kokoda on August 11, 2009.

Two PNG pilots and a Japanese tourist also died.
In less than a year since the crash, there have been three mishaps involving APNG - including one incident in which a plane veered off the runaway during take off.

The other two incidents involved a plane becoming bogged in wet ground, and another aircraft that had a flat tyre and damage to a wheel fairing.

APNG spokeswoman Danae Jones told AAP the airline had "impeccable safety standards" but would not discuss its maintenance procedures, the age of its fleet or improvements made since the Kokoda crash.
"In the absence of a state issued accident report, and consequent understanding of the reason for the accident, it would not be appropriate to isolate improvements in the organisation, at risk of this implying these may have been causal factors in the Kokoda accident," she said.

But the accident report could be a long time coming because PNG's only air crash investigator was effectively sacked before he had finished his probe into the crash.
PNG chief accident investigator, Sid O'Toole, was almost finished his report into the crash when his contract with the Civil Aviation Authority expired on July 11 and was not renewed.
"I am no longer legally able to work on the report because I am not a Department of Transport employee," Mr O'Toole told AAP.

Mr O'Toole, who has repeatedly called for greater government action on aviation safety, said APNG had improved its operation since the Kokoda crash.
"But what's happened to me shows how serious PNG takes air safety," he said.

At the time of the Kokoda crash, Mr O'Toole revealed PNG authorities had failed to properly investigate 19 air crashes which had killed 16 people, including three Australians and three New Zealanders, since 2000.

In January this year, APNG and the Australian government suspended flights to four village airstrips along the Kokoda Track following safety concerns.

The same month, an APNG aircraft veered off the runaway during take off in Kikori, Gulf Province on PNG's southwest coast.

Ms Jones said APNG stopped operating at Kikori four months ago due to the standard of the runway.
In November last year, a plane became bogged in wet ground when it was servicing mining company Xstrata's Frieda River copper mine in PNG's northwest.
Some time after that, another aircraft got a flat tyre and associated crack to plastic on one of the wheel fairings.
However, Ms Jones said APNG stood by its safety record.
"The reality is the standard of aerodromes within PNG continues to decline, and for all the effort the entire industry puts in to maximising the safety of our collective operations, PNG remains one of the most challenging places in the world to fly, and these declines in infrastructure continue to challenge the industry," she said.

The 2009 Kokoda crash wasn't APNG's first major accident in a country known for rugged terrain, harsh conditions and unpredictable weather.

In July 2004 an Australian pilot and PNG co-pilot died when their APNG twin otter carrying cargo crashed approximately 100 km north of Port Moresby.

It seems to me like somebody is sitting back counting their pennies at the cost of innocent blood? How do these individuals sleep at night? Why does it appear that there is no accountability? Are not the laws supposed to protect the innocent and make the accountable person(s) actually accountable for deaths that occur under their watch?

How many pilots and innocent passenger deaths will it take to bring some justice to those affected? Remember, 86 deaths with countless families living through another Xmas without mothers, fathers, children and grandparents. May those of us with a conscience and a soul remember that in our thoughts as we sleep comfortably in our beds tonight. And may the accountable managers who are content to lay down their heads at night after counting their illustrious pennies also remember the blood that is on their hands.

[psycho joe]

Ms Jones said APNG stopped operating at Kikori four months ago due to the standard of the runway.
In November last year, a plane became bogged in wet ground when it was servicing mining company Xstrata's Frieda River copper mine in PNG's northwest.

I used to frequent these strips and it sounds like nothing much has changed.

I can recall operators complaining/ boycotting KIK years ago due to the WW2 era steel planking breaking up at the joints, creating sharp edges that were perfect for shredding tyres. Sections of frunway had to be skillfully navigated during take off and landing.

Unless Freida strip has been moved it was always a boggy track even by PNG standards, due to the fact that it was literally right on the river bank and only a few inches above the water in parts. If you haven't come close to being bogged or at least side-ways at Freida, then you're either a helicopter pilot or you're lucky enough to not go there too often.:E

[flying-spike]

It is amazingly disappointing that an award like that can be given so soon after accidents that have resulted in multiple fatalities. It would be a real slap in the face for the families of those lost or injured in the recent accidents. The fact that this award has been made would appear to indicate that those accidents are normal and not worthy of consideration when making such awards

Perhaps EHL should have looked further afield to the sister company in Australia and the apparently toxic environment therein. From what I have heard the safety manager left in disgust and there remains a culture of blame even to the point that senior staff are accusing each other of setting each other up for incidents. That is not evidence of a healthy safety culture especially where the two companies apparently share and/or borrow senior management.

EHL may end up with egg on their face for giving this award if the organisation(s) doesn't learn from previous problems.

[Aimpoint]

Spike,

Whilst I agree with your first paragraph, you couldn't resist having a dig at Skytrans in the rest of the post, could you?

The Skytrans bashing is ongoing from you, let it go man...

[flying-spike]

I would much rather comment on the sharing of a strong safety culture and good accident history between the two organisations. My point is simply that this type of award and some audit results can be held up by operators as marketing tools when they may not necessarily reflect all the facts. From my experience these awards usually reflect how the operator fits in with the customer's systems and these are usually aimed at OH&S issues.
Good on them for winning an award but lets not ignore what it relates to.
Hopefully in the future, both organisations will be awarded for stellar safety performance across the board.

[beached az]

A good post Oleo.

Post Courier forgot to mention a certian very close shave in IMC with the Kuta Ridge, DHC-6 (P2 MCE) in 2011. Skipper with more than 30 years in country time conducting "DIY" GPS procedure into Hagan. Very lucky to get away with it, and I'm very glad they did.
Also neglected to mention the multiple SE air returns / diversions that same year.

Since Madang it's extremely disappointing to learn that only 1 of APNG's DHC-8 fleet (P2 MCM) has had the mandated Beta Backup mods retrofitted (with ongoing probelms, accordind to the boys at T2).
It doesn't help when CASA PNG allows seamingly unlimited extensions to the process. This is even more insulting to those affected by this most traumatic event when "Wilde Air PNG" proudly announces a K3.8M profit in 2011 finacial year. :=
Once again the Wildes are putting profits before safety.

Given that the deck chair reshuffling is now going on across the Coral Sea, not just in POM, the accountability can be diluted even further.:ugh:

It will however be interesting to see how SW can pull off a Talair with such clapped out equipment & disfunctional management.
The wheels can't be far from falling off this shower of ****, just pray no more lives are lost in the process.

[faheel]

nope you are wrong about the beta back up system.
All aircraft have it installed, last 2 or 3 done a couple of months ago.

[beached az]

nope you are wrong about the beta back up system.
All aircraft have it installed, last 2 or 3 done a couple of months ago.

I stand corrected faheel, my information was from several months back, and given how slowly the wheels of change grind at T2 though it safe to assume status quo.

About time, but good to see that it has finally happened :D.

[ResumeOwnNav]

I also think you're not quite right regarding "conducting "DIY" GPS procedure into Hagan"

[Mach E Avelli]

It may not have been a DIY GPS procedure, probably rather a case of 'watch this'. In any case, a highly experienced pilot managed to hit the Kuta ridge well below the accepted visual MSA and landed the Twotter at Hagen with part of one wingtip sheared off and foliage buried in the leading edges of the wings. Had it been a foot or two lower it could have been fatal. Whether a dodgy GPS position played a part, is also not something I know. The guy at CASAPNG who knew most of the facts surrounding this has since passed away, so maybe what really occurred will never become public. More's the pity because there is a lot we could learn from this.
How it was suppressed from the newspapers I dunno. Perhaps the shareholding has something to do with why some operators in PNG appear to be protected species......

[Normasars]

I have it on very good authority that a certain Chief Pilot of TT was appointed to the HFO position of APNG and was undermined from DAY1 by a certain kiwi individual and had no choice but to "exit stage left" after only 8 weeks because he felt compromised. Apparently he said the place was a train wreck and it was only a matter of time before history is repeated. His words not mine.

[Lucerne]

That is SUCH a common occurrence!!

[geeup]

Mach E Avelli surely the crew on board know more about what happened then the guy from PNGCASA?

The PNGCASA guy could have cleaned a lot of stuff up but like most itinerants to PNG (and there has been many) all that seems to happen is charge on in mess with a heap of stuff and leave the place worse then he found it...

Alot of lessons have been learnt from the incidents and accidents the difference is it is the industry that must uphold the standards as PNGCASA will never in force anything.

MAF, Hevilift, SouthWest are all no different to APNG from what I have seen.

[Mach E Avelli]

Of course the crew in any survivable accident know more than anyone else about what really happened. Point I was trying to make is that the one person in CASAPNG who seemed to think it warranted some serious action passed away and since then it appears to have simply never happened.
And yes, some other operators in that part of the world need a boot in the bum as well, but who is gonna do it?
The CASA PNG terms and conditions simply won't retain good people, and those few who have shown some integrity and have tried to investigate serious incidents and discipline miscreant operators have been unable to penetrate the politics. Imagine someone shutting down any of the operators you mention a week before Xmas a la Barrier and Hardy. It would never happen.

[Waghi Warrior]

Mach has hit the nail fair and squarely on the head re CASA PNG. The AIC, PNG ASL and NAC are ran in similar fashion to CASA. Having said this I believe that the new government are at least trying to address some of the issues with respect to the aviation industry. At least we don't have 50 year old junk flying around in PNG doing RPT like some other nations around the world.

[Arnold E]

At least we don't have 50 year old junk flying around in PNG doing RPT like some other nations around the world.

Oh, you mean like here in Oz.:E

[Ejector]

What airline or charter company in oz operates "junk" that was built in 1962 or older?

[Ret Sabala]

In regard the EHL safety award it was awarded on merit, the A/PNG operations on that contract are squeaky clean. EHL pay top dollar and insist on compliance in all aspects.
When you pay top dollar you can turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.
Pity this cannot be replicated more often in a dollar orientated world

[teresa green]

JUNK???????? At least they don't need hubcaps! Keep the ranks closed fella's, those two crew need all the support they can get. The Press, watch.

[Waghi Warrior]

Given the report that come out on the P2-TAA accident recently it would be safe to assume that the final report will be reasonably accurate. I believe all the FDR and CVR data was removed and was all recoverable.

[my oleo is extended]

It is disappointing that for two contributors who appear to have experience in PNG, that you do not appear to not show at least some support for the industry as a whole and espicially the pilots for the efforts everyone goes to in trying to operate in an environment where it would appear nothing works.
That statement couldn't be further from the truth. My support will always be with and remain with loyal pilots, 'good guys just trying to do the right thing'. In fact that goes for the entire aviation industry.
My disdain and disgust is aimed at those who cut corners, run shonky outfits, fail to oversight their operations level of safety and KILL PEOPLE. Then they try to distance themselves, shuffle the deck chairs, avoid accountability and run for the hills like spineless toads.

MachTwelve, as for disliking my reference to APNG, debating is useless and no more comment on that from me, let the statistics speak for themselves.

As for PNG CAA......hmmmm. Again, that really speaks for itself doesn't it???

[Cactusjack]

Any updates with the accident investigation? Is it getting close to being completed?

[rjtjrt]

I just looked for a completed report and can't find one.
Anyone know if a report has been published?

[fugitive]

From what you hear,the extreme hours these guys fly and he poor maintenaince hasn`t changed; 50 plus on duty hours a week is really a bit over the top.
Accidents will happen if this sort of operation doesn`t change.Does CASA ever get off their backsides or don't they care.

[Cactusjack]

Fugitive, what a surprise, not. The only good thing about that company are the pilots. As for CASA or closer to home the CAA, you will be waiting a long long time for either of those dinosaurs to actually do something proactive.

[Waghi Warrior]

So fingers are being pointed at CASA now, I assume you guys are referring to the PNG CASA. I think that everyone in the know has half an idea of what triggered this accident. At the time of the accident the type of incident that triggered things to go pear shaped could have occurred to "ANY" Dash 8 operator in the world. PNG CASA actually acted (post accident) in the most appropriate way with regards to the implementation of the mandatory AD.

[Pith Helmet]

Is this ban still in place?

On 27th October 2011 The American Embassy in Papua New Guinea has banned all its staff and citizens from flying on Airlines PNG. In a message posted on its website last Thursday, the embassy said US citizens travelling to or living in Papua New Guinea must not travel on the airline until further notice. It said embassy personnel could fly with Airlines PNG only with the approval of the US ambassador to PNG and only for the embassy’s essential business. It issued this directive following the airline’s recent plane crash on Oct 13 in Madang, when a Dash 8 crashed, killing 28 of the 32 people on board. The embassy said Airlines PNG had experienced two plane crashes in the recent past, resulting in 41 deaths. The embassy had encouraged Americans to maintain an updated profile in the Smart Traveller Enrolment Programme, or STEP, at the website: http://mwerigi.********.com.au/2011/10/us-bans-use-of-apng.html


The public voice:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/APNG-Must-Go/ (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/APNG-Must-Go/)


A reminder:
Incidents and accidents:

15 December 1992. A Britten-Norman Islander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britten-Norman_Islander) aircraft struck a mountain near Alotau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alotau), Papua New Guinea. 6 people killed.
12 July 1995. Shortly after takeoff from Dagura Airport, the Twin Otter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Canada_DHC-6_Twin_Otter) aircraft exploded and crashed into shallow water. 13 people killed.
11 May 1996. Britten-Norman Islander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britten-Norman_Islander) flew into a valley surrounded by high terrain near Oumba. Pilot attempted a 180 degree turn, but crashed into trees. 1 passenger killed.
9 July 1996. Twin Otter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Canada_DHC-6_Twin_Otter) aircraft struck a mountain in cloudy conditions on approach to Mendi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendi). 20 killed.
29 July 2004. Twin Otter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Canada_DHC-6_Twin_Otter) crashed near Ononge, in cloudy conditions. 2 killed.
11 August 2009. Flight 4684 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airlines_PNG_Flight_4684), a Twin Otter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Canada_DHC-6_Twin_Otter), made a failed go-around (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go-around) in cloudy conditions near Kokoda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokoda). The aircraft crashed into a mountain at an altitude of 5500 feet (1676 metres). All 13 people on board were killed.
13 October 2011. An Airlines PNG Dash 8-100 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash_8-100), registration P2-MCJ, performing flight CG1600 from Lae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lae) to Madang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madang) (Papua New Guinea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_New_Guinea)), crashed about 20 km south of Madang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madang) and caught fire, killing 28 of the 32 aboard.
This company and it's sister company in Australia are owned and run by the same person, begs the question as to why the CAA or CASA aren't concerned?

[Waghi Warrior]

Who knows, who cares! Get over it!!!!!!!

Exxon Mobil seem to be happy flying all their staff around in APNG's Dash 8s.

APNG must be doing something RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Captain Nomad]

Just don't go naming any Dash 8's 'Valdez' okay...?! :eek: :E

[Cactusjack]

Warrior, are you for real? "Who knows who cares, get over it"? Try telling that to the families of over 70 dead people in less than a decade. Not to mention the Dash 8 crash being one of the worst crashes in the Australia pacific region in 30 years.
Lets see your family's body parts scraped out of a smouldering wreck and we can all see if you still say "who knows, who cares, get over it"?? :mad:

And yeah, Exxon Valdez, nice work they did of the environment. Amazing what fatigue, lack of procedures and a cowboy attitude and greed can do! Now where have I seen that before? Oh yes........

[Waghi Warrior]

Cactus, Whilst we all have a fair idea what triggered the Dash 8 accident it isn't exactly fair to point the finger at individuals or an organisation. The whole industry in general has a lot to learn from this tragic event, the same event could have occurred to any operator.

The behaviour of blaming individuals or organisations for tragic accidents or incidents doesn't do anything positive in promoting aviation safety

[MachTwelve]

Pith Helmet,

Unsure about the website, but the US Ambassador is certainly travelling on APNG, so I guess the restriction has been lifted.

If you intend posting accident records , why not also post all of Talair's accidents and tie these to FlightWest and then Alliance. The links between the totally different company's and relevance are about the same...... Original owner and ?????? or BOAC and British Airways (don't forget the Comet, at least it has more in common with the B747-400 than an islander flown single pilot, has in common with a DHC-8).

Whilst I understand your (and CJ's) need to publically display your vitriol against Skytrans (after all it was them who fired both of you, a decision supported by FWA), why you tie the great staff work in PNG up in this I am not sure.

[Cactusjack]

Sorry MachTwelve, haven't worked for your airline so I am unsure where your information (inaccurate to say the least) comes from. However i do have friends at the airline you mention (some have moved on) and I don't know pith helmet either, so I can't speak for he/she. I notice you are very protective of your airline and don't mind having a shot at your competition Heavilift, so you are I guess a little bit hypocritical. At the end of the day I am driven by the death of a very close personal pilot and from that day several years ago I have vowed to say it the way it is, sometimes that is shunned and other times embraced, so be it. But I no longer have any tolerance for any airline that has crashed, killed, injured or put others lives at risk in any way, shape or form in pursuit of the mighty dollar.

[geeup]

CJ,

You may need to do your homework again.:=

"very protective of your airline and don't mind having a shot at your competition Heavilift":ugh:

No such competitor.....:ok:

Have you ever operated in PNG :oh:

[VolLibre]

In the Post Courier today but the website won't let me in. Free subscription offered but no confirmation email arrives (tried two different email addresses)


Probe into Airlines PNG crash underway (http://dev.postcourier.com.pg/Stories/probe-into-airlines-png-crash-underway/)
The PNG Accident Investigations Commission has progressed investigations into the Airlines PNG plane crash in Madang in 2011 which claimed 28 lives.

[Paragraph377]

Couldn't see anything on the AIC website and I couldn't be bothered joining the newspapers subscription base.
Anybody else got any info or update on the APNG investigation status? It's been two years now.

[VolLibre]

From Post Courier



Probe into Airlines PNG crash underway
By JACOB POK
The PNG Accident Investigations Commission has progressed investigations into the Airlines PNG plane crash in Madang in 2011 which claimed 28 lives.
Chief Commissioner of the PNG Accident Investigations Com-mission Nema Yalo said yesterday that the investigation into the accident has come to a stage where findings of the commissions were delivered to persons and stakeholders directly involved in the accident for their comments and feedbacks.
Mr Yalo said the commission would not release any information on the progress of the investigations at this stage according to aviation investigations laws, until it receives responses from directly involved persons.
"The directly involved persons would involve the aircraft manufactures or manufacturers of parts of aircrafts. It also involves immediate families of the victims involved in the accident for their feedback on the findings of the commission," Mr Yalo said.
He said the commission would not be able to provide a definite time as to when the final reports would be ready. "As to when the reports would be ready is a matter of process. It is not like investigating simple traffic accident on the road as there are international Civil Aviation rules that must be followed. It takes a lot of time when relevant parts of the planes are sent out to manufactures for analysis and inspections," Mr Yalo said.
He added that the commission does not have any control of how long investigations would take but only wait for the reports to be sent back to them in order to pursue further.
The commission also called on airline operators to be extra cautious in the Christmas period because there were frequent aviation accidents occurring unlike in the past.

[Paragraph377]

Any updates yet?

[Ejector]

"Independent" with feedback and influence of interested parties.

[Paragraph377]

Link to the final accident report below;

http://www.aic.gov.pg/pdf/P2-MCJ%20AIC11-1010%20Final%20Report.pdf

- Primary root cause of the accident has been identified as "pilot error".
- Some of the causal factors identified in the report were;
• Nil use of the QRH while several emergencies were taking place
• Nil use of emergency procedures
• Operators training system had been ineffective for an incident or occurrence of this type

Seems Toomey ran away just in time, so with whom will the corporate 'accountability' now lay with? The current CEO? The MD? Who pays the price for the 28 charred corpses? APNG from my recollection have killed around 90 people in total over the years. Will management yet again hide behind the lawyers and politicians and remain protected and escape accountability?

[Paragraph377]

Typical politicized response. Throw some spin on the accident, and feather your response by incorporating comments from the report such as “In the majority of aircraft accidents over the years, there have been multiple contributing factors. The AIC Report clearly points to the fact that the forced landing near Madang was no exception - with human factors, “a systemic design issue” and other factors all combining to cause this tragic event”. APNG have conveniently left out admitting here that the root cause of the accident was that the PIC stuffed up! If he had not incorrectly selected the levers through the gate in the first place the overspeed would not have occurred and a perfectly serviceable aircraft would not have crashed killing 28 people. There were many many Dash 8’s flying around the world at the time of this accident and you didn’t see them crashing from incorrect selections.

APNG says “The Report identifies that the crew unintentionally selected the aircraft’s power levers below flight idle (effectively into reverse) whilst in flight”. Obviously the PIC never intended to crash a plane on that fateful day, however he did make a fundamental inexcusable error which caused this accident.

APNG says “The AIC Report also noted that a similar pilot error had occurred on several previous occasions elsewhere in the world. That action caused the aircraft’s propellers to overspeed, which in turn triggered the events that left the flight crew no option but to force land the aircraft”. What APNG leaves out however is that with the Madang crash is that after the PIC made his mistake and all hell broke loose the pilots did not use the QRH, the pilots did not use emergency procedures, the pilots spent too much time talking to the tower, and the pilots had not received training for such a potential occurrence, and the company was at fault for that. In fact the report says that even after selecting reverse they still could have probably saved the aircraft and prevented the crash.

I believe the press release is not only evasive and some might say misleading, it is a slap in the face for the innocent who died and the loved ones they have left behind. The CEO, Managing Director and Board members should hang their heads in shame for agreeing to and/or authorising this response. What a disgrace and an attempt to shift the blame. APNG yet again have blood on their hands and yet again act dishonoraably with their response.
ACOUNTABILITY ACOCUNTABILITY ACCOUNTABILITY I say. Someone needs to be held to account over this accident.

The pathetic press release is here;

News (http://www.apng.com/News.aspx)

[Hempy]

Although a 'beta lockout' mechanism did exist for DHC-8-100,-200, and -300 series aircraft which prevented the propellers from going into reverse even if the power levers were moved into the beta range during flight, this mechanism was only required by regulation to be installed in DHC-8 aircraft operating in the USA. It was not required to be fitted to DHC-8 aircraft in Papua New Guinea, and it was not fitted to MCJ.

and then,

If a beta lockout mechanism had been installed on the aircraft, the double propeller overspeed would not have occurred when the power levers were moved below the flight idle range and in the ground beta range during flight. Installation of this mechanism is now mandatory on DHC-8 aircraft worldwide by 19 June 2016.

Fairly significant factor imo. Neither the Cpt or F/O had trained for an overspeed in the sim. He must have given the levers a fair pull to sail past the detente without noticing, but you would think ham fistedness shouldn't be able to drive you into ground beta in flight..

I bet they still haven't fitted the lock-outs yet though.

[Hugh Jarse]

Hempy, the power levers on the Dash do not have a detent at the flight idle stop. Discing (below flight idle) requires pulling the triggers to unlock the power levers below the flight idle gate.

There is however, a detent between discing and reverse.

Australian registered Dash 8's are fitted with an aural alarm which will sound if one or more of the triggers are pulled in flight.

[Paragraph377]

Good interview below. The AIC CEO pretty much sums up the cause of the accident. Let's see what spin APNG can drum up to cover over this;

Pilot error contributes to PNG crash | Pacific Beat | ABC Radio Australia (http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/international/radio/program/pacific-beat/pilot-error-contributes-to-png-crash/1327912)

I really hope that lessons have and will be learned from this. The accident is damning against APNG as an airline. And with its previous history of crashes and around 100 people dead you would imagine that the time has come for some accountability to be measured out? What have or are the CAA going to do? Sit on their hands again? Will the government finally stand up and say enough is enough of this sort of occurrence in PNG? Will APNG at the very minimum, remove the current CEO who cannot be absolved of accountability just because he started after the accident occurred. What will the public, contracted parties and current or potential investors think about this? How will the accidents root cause affect the insurance payouts, future premiums and financial viability of the airline? Will the Board and Managing Director step aside?
It cannot be forgotten that this accident is probably the worst to occur in the Australia Pacific region in 40 years. 28 people on this occasion are dead. Justice must be sought for those who are now resting in peace.

Also another take on the accident;

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-pacific/10163230/Kiwi-pilot-blamed-for-deadly-PNG-crash

And the potential merger of APNG with Air Niugini iced;

http://www.alternativeairlines.com/air-niugini-and-airlines-png-merger-suggested-and-opposed
Prime Minister Somare said;
He also cites Airlines PNG’s low profitability, its reliance on charters to mining projects and its poor safety record against that of Air Niugini, which has never had an accident

[fugitive]

While it is easy to say,pilot error,what other factors combined to cause two experienced pilots to lose it?of course it was pilot error,but what caused these experienced pilots to get to the point where they lost the plot?
It is time that AIC look at management,they seem to be left out of the investigations.
Reading the report,the Captain had been sick,the F/O had been called off reserve,the aircraft was not fully serviceable,flight controls not fully operational and no auto pilot;it had apparently been U/S for a number of days,
Don't call it pilot error,call it management error.
It looks like the old CRM Swiss cheese problem again.
Take care of the pilots,they did their best.:

[The Big E]

Its no better then apng in a lot of ways

FB, that's not quite right.

Check out the stats - December 92 to October 2011, total looks to be 83, compared to November 1973 to Date is Nil.
Let the knockers and naysayers do the maths.

T B E.

[The Big E]

Take care of the pilots, they did their best.:

You got that right, regardless of the circumstances they did what they could with the hand that they were dealt, and the limited time available.

Irrespective of the Report, any media can be wise after the event.

[004wercras]

Reading the report,the Captain had been sick,the F/O had been called off reserve,the aircraft was not fully serviceable,flight controls not fully operational and no auto pilot;it had apparently been U/S for a number of days,
Don't call it pilot error,call it management error.
Lets hope management are taken to task over the accident, and not protected by flashing around handfuls of cash.

[Square Bear]

Reading the report,the Captain had been sick,the F/O had been called off reserve,the aircraft was not fully serviceable,flight controls not fully operational and no auto pilot;it had apparently been U/S for a number of days,
Don't call it pilot error,call it management error.

Not being an apologist for the Airlines management at all, but really, some of your points need looking at.

The report stated that the Captain HAD previously been sick, but reported as fit for the duty. No where does it indicate he was dragged out of a sick bed!! Don't you think that it was possible that he was no longer sick and that is why he went to work that day.

The F/O was called in from RESERVE. Actually that is why pilots are rostered on Reserve. In many, many airlines it is a bonus NOT to be called out on RESERVE

There was no Auto Pilot available due to the unserviceable Yaw Damper. I personally don't think it a smart idea at all flying an aircraft such as this in these circumstances without the help of an autopilot, but that is what the REGULATOR (and obviously the manufacturer) allowed, and allowed for it to up to 10 days.

The other MEL's were not so serious, and I whilst in the perfect world would not be carried, it is not perfect and again both the Regulator and Manufacturer allowed the MEL. So whilst the aircraft may not have been "fully serviceable" it was still legal.

There are a probably a lot of hands that are involved in this tragic event, but it is pointless putting the blame on one identity using normal (and perfectly legal) events to support your argument.

[JammedStab]

Don't call it pilot error,call it management error.

Any pilot flying with these engines should know that you should keep your fingers well clear of the triggers whenever in the air. It is clearly written in the manuals about selection of power levers below flight idle in flight being prohibited.

There have been several cases of accidents happening for similar reasons and there is usually a common theme. The pilot was higher or faster than he wanted to be and somehow the two actions of pulling those triggers and then moving the power levers aft happened.

One has to wonder how much of a random coincidence it is that almost every time if not every time the triggers have been activated flowed by power lever movement aft beyond flight idle in the air leading to an accident, it just happened to be when the pilot really wanted to go down or slow down.

[Hugh Jarse]

Jammedstab,

I'm not going to comment on the crew actions, but in response to the second paragraph of your last post I have to say that with the Dash 1 to 300, it's common knowledge among its pilots that "if you can see it, you can land on it". By that, I mean that if your landing runway is in view, any combination of flight idle, condition levers max, gear and flap will get you safely (and stable) to your proposed touchdown point without exception.

In over 6000hrs on the Dash, I never had to go around because of being too high/fast. The aeroplane is just so versatile and easy enough to fly to enable a stable approach in many unusual situations.

[John Citizen]

One has to wonder how much of a random coincidence it is that almost every time if not every time the triggers have been activated in the air leading to an accident, it just happened to be when the pilot really wanted to go down or slow down.

Is this a common bush technique which works well in other turboprops (Twin Otter) but not so well in a Dash 8 ?

I am just wondering if the captain was using the "crack it into Beta" technique as it always worked so well in other types (if it ever did).

Has anyone heard of pilots successfully using this technique on another aircraft type (or even used the technique themself) ?

[poncho73]

The bush technique of “cracking it into Beta” is not an approved method of operation in any of the Twin Otter, Dash 7 or Dash 8’s.The Dash 8 propeller is governed as far back as 2/3’s of the way between Flt Idle and DISCing, but unlike the PT6 controls, beyond that point, props are no longer governed and have what is referred to as ‘positive reverse’ in the PW100 series of engine/prop controls. At lower speeds during approach, there is insufficient airflow to drive the prop to overspeed. Reading between the lines of your (John Citizen’s) comments, is it possible that this particular pilot had used Beta without adverse effect on prior occasions, but didn’t know that the high speed characteristics of the prop were disastrous at Vmo?

[swh]

poncho73

I dont think people realise you can be in beta RANGE without selecting reverse, they are not the same animal.

I think every person who has flown a PT6 powered aircraft has been in Beta RANGE totally legally. Beta RANGE is when the prop speed is controlled by the power lever, i.e. taxi, and often on final approach. Beta range is not the same as reverse range, however the reverse range can also be considered in the beta range.

Alfa RANGE is when the prop levers control blade angle.

I do not agree with your comments about "bush technique of “cracking it into Beta” is not an approved method of operation in any of the Twin Otter" as the aircraft is in flight idle". It happens every day, totally legal.

Sorry to digress, please continue.

[poncho73]

Good point swh, I got excited when composing that response and forgot to include the word "GROUND" Beta. You are correct Beta is used in the air. I should also say....nothing below Flight Idle detent (considered GROUND Beta) is permitted while airborne, including the Twin Otter, it is not "legal" as you say to operate in this regime. I hope this does not happen everyday as you say, but I would like to continue the discussion.

[Paragraph377]

Have APNG sought an extension so that they can put some spin and waffle together to counteract the damning Dash 8 accident report? Of course they will. It is interesting how over the past 3 Annual reports the Chairman and Director have filled the report with page after page of financial jargon, and even financial risk, but there is virtually no statement about safety, commitment to safety, or a prioritisation of safety. No surprise really when you look back at around 9 crashes and 100 dead.
How do some people sleep at night???

http://www.apng.com/News.aspx

POMSOX ANNOUNCEMENT - 18TH JUNE 2014 - EXTENSIONS OF DATES FOR DISTRIBUTION OF 2013 ANNUAL REPORT, PREPARATION 2013 FINANCIAL STATEMENTS AND HOLDING 2014 GENERAL MEETING OF SHAREHOLDERS

Airlines of Papua New Guinea Limited (POMSoX: CGA) advises that:

a) the Registrar of Companies has granted extensions of the dates by or on which the company is to hold its annual general meeting of shareholders, prepare and /or finalise statements for 2013 and to prepare its annual report for 2013 to 29 August 2014; and

b)POMSoX has granted an extension of time to dispatch annual reports to shareholder as prescribed by Listing Rule 4.6 to 30 June 2014.

For further information contact:
Media Relations: Telephone: 302 3194 Email: [email protected]
Investor Relations: Telephone: 302 3234 Email: [email protected]

Let the spin begin.

[JammedStab]

Is this a common bush technique which works well in other turboprops (Twin Otter) but not so well in a Dash 8 ?



I was told to never even think about twisting the grips to go past the low pitch stops in the Twin Otter in flight. I only heard rumour that someone had tried it and there was a loss of aircraft control more to do with aerodynamics of airflow, perhaps over the tail. Perhaps right in the flare, this procedure might get done on offstrip landings.



I dont think people realise you can be in beta RANGE without selecting reverse, they are not the same animal.

I think every person who has flown a PT6 powered aircraft has been in Beta RANGE totally legally. Beta RANGE is when the prop speed is controlled by the power lever, i.e. taxi, and often on final approach. Beta range is not the same as reverse range, however the reverse range can also be considered in the beta range.

Alfa RANGE is when the prop levers control blade angle.



Correct,

At the finer pitch range at low power settings, the aircraft is in what is known as Approach Beta which simply means that Power lever movement is controlling blade angle. It could be from 10-17 degrees blade angle but I don't have the manual handy at the moment.

I'm not going to comment on the crew actions, but in response to the second paragraph of your last post I have to say that with the Dash 1 to 300, it's common knowledge among its pilots that "if you can see it, you can land on it". By that, I mean that if your landing runway is in view, any combination of flight idle, condition levers max, gear and flap will get you safely (and stable) to your proposed touchdown point without exception.

In over 6000hrs on the Dash, I never had to go around because of being too high/fast. The aeroplane is just so versatile and easy enough to fly to enable a stable approach in many unusual situations.

Thinking about it now, the accidents that I can remember off the top of my head were on the Fokker 50 and Saab 340 which has a GE engine. I flew the ATR and it seems similar in being able to get down quickly with those prop blades at flight idle.

In this accident, it appears that the scenario was different with a desire to get below a CB cloud combined with an overspeed.

[saabsforever]

The F50 has the same engine family as the Dash and ATR.
The Saab 340 has GE engines and with 200kt gear speed and 175 flap speed will get down and slow down much better than a Dash.
Interesting to note though that it had the same issue with double engine failure if the power levers were brought back below flight idle at high speed. One in the states deadsticked into an airfield below them at night and got away with it.
The first remedy was a physical block to prevent the levers coming back and later an electronic remedy.Both solved the problem at least they did something real not just putting a sticker on the panel.
Notes on both the F50 and Saabs are buried deep in the accident report.

[JammedStab]

what has to be asked is why? Why did a pilot with around 17,000 hours make such a silly mistake?

I did notice that the pilot only had 500 hours on type. Was he a jet guy that moved into the turboprop world and not particularly knowledgeable about them? Perhaps he had seen, as many have, the Pilatus Porter doing its thing straight down using beta inflight with a PT-6 and assumed the similar was possible with any free turbine engine.

Just a theory but someone could think that the warning not to do such a thing is more of an aerodynamic/high sink rate risk than a risk to destroying engines. I only knew about the real reason for the dangers by reading accident reports in which the same thing has happened.

[Cactusjack]

PX has had accidents and its also unprofitable. It relies on AusAid to keep going. Its no better then apng in a lot of ways
Are you serious? To compare PX accident rate to that of APNG is ludicrous. There is no comparison.

[Gemini Twin]

The outcome may have been different if they hadn't exceeded Vmo, the correction of which lead to the fatal chain of events.

[poncho73]

Doing this at an airspeed of say 160kts or greater in the DHC-8 (1 - 3 series),without Beta Lockout protection, would have resulted in the same propeller overspeed condition. This is why aft of flight idle is prohibited at anytime while airborne, it's just something you never want to try.

[Gemini Twin]

Agreed poncho but at slower speed the air forces may not have "wound it up" so fast. The rapid acceleration and huge increase in noise seems to have caused a huge element of surprise which could not be figured out, i.e. "what have we done", until it was too late.

[poncho73]

That is what the report is saying, although wx might have been an issue:"When the propeller overspeeds occurred, the aircraft was at 10,090 ft AMSL 34 km south south east of Madang aerodrome. If we estimate it might have travelled two nautical miles towards Madang while losing 2,500 ft during the time the flight crew executed the emergency procedures and configured the aircraft to fly at 1.3 VS, it would have been approximately 17 nautical miles or approximately 31.5 km from Madang aerodrome by 7,500 ft AMSL. Prompt execution of the applicable emergency procedures would therefore have probably allowed the flight crew to glide to, or close to, Madang aerodrome. However, the flight crew could not see Madang and were also aware of a storm in the vicinity of the aerodrome."

[ResumeOwnNav]

The Finisterre Arrival is just over 5 degrees FPA.

In a Dash 8 100 it is done comfortably at flight idle, 900 RPM, with 1,600 ft/min RoD between 160-170 KIAS.

Constant descent profile from LSALT 15,000' down to MDA of 850'.

IAF 17 DME, FAF 10 DME.

[Hugh Jarse]

The Finisterre Arrival is just over 5 degrees FPA.

In a Dash 8 100 it is done comfortably at flight idle, 900 RPM, with 1,600 ft/min RoD between 160-170 KIAS.

Constant descent profile from LSALT 15,000' down to MDA of 850'.

IAF 17 DME, FAF 10 DME.

Do you know what the performance of the aircraft would be with one or both propellors overspeeding, or in a combination of overspeed and feather?

At 900RPM and flight idle the PW120 is still providing forward thrust.

I suspect the crew would have been more concerned with controlling the aircraft...

[Ret Sabala]

I personally can't wait for the annual report to be delivered on Monday I think? It should be hilarious.

[Paragraph377]

I personally can't wait for the annual report to be delivered on Monday I think? It should be hilarious.
Maybe so, but of more importance than the humorous AG report bull**** will be the look on managements face if they are ever held to account over this accident. It probably won't happen, considering this mob have had close to a dozen crashes with 100 lives lost and still senior people remain enthroned.
Not even the most robust accident investigation report is complete until the root cause and contributing factors have been addressed, and as with this accident accountability heaped upon the accountable managers.

I just hope the lawyers are lined up over this, the families of the deceased are ready to take this airline to task, those accountable are locked up, the airlines insurance company pays dearly, and the CAA remain glued to this mob until such a day that the crashes and deaths are no longer a common theme. Here's to wishing.

[Paragraph377]

The APNG Accident and death list:

• 15 December 1992. A Britten-Norman Islander aircraft struck a mountain near Alotau, Papua New Guinea. 6 people killed.

• 12 July 1995. Shortly after takeoff from Dagura Airport, the Twin Otter aircraft exploded and crashed into shallow water. 13 people killed.

• 11 May 1996. Britten-Norman Islander flew into a valley surrounded by high terrain near Oumba. Pilot attempted a 180 degree turn, but crashed into trees. 1 passenger killed.

• 9 July 1996. Twin Otter aircraft struck a mountain in cloudy conditions on approach to Mendi. 20 people killed.

• 29 July 2004. Twin Otter crashed near Ononge, in cloudy conditions. 2 people killed.

• 11 August 2009. Flight 4684, a Twin Otter, made a failed go-around in cloudy conditions near Kokoda. The aircraft crashed into a mountain at an altitude of 5500 feet (1676 metres). All 13 people killed.

• 13 October 2011. An Airlines PNG Dash 8-100, registration P2-MCJ, operating flight CG1600 from Lae to Madang (Papua New Guinea), crashed about 20 km south of Madang and caught fire, 28 of the 32 people aboard killed.

Plus;
• One incident in which a plane veered off the runaway during take off.

• An incident where a plane becoming bogged in wet ground.

• And another aircraft that had a flat tyre and damage to a wheel fairing.

Total = 82 dead.

I wonder whether some of these statistics are included in tomorrow's Board Report along with all the financial statistics? The last 2 accidents they have had has seen an increase in the amount of people killed. And the CAA is going to allow them to add ATR's?? The stakes get higher?

[troppo]

without splitting hairs, there is a difference between MBA and APNG which is not mentioned in the APNG dismal record post

[Mach E Avelli]

But, Troppo, was it not the same family directing the show in both cases?
APNG grew from MBA.
Corporate 'culture' begins at the very top. This includes pilot selection, training, checking, promotion, the application or otherwise of commercial pressure, and so on.
Not wishing to defend pilots when they make fatal errors of judgement, but all too often the investigators stop simply with 'pilot error' and don't delve far enough into other underlying causes.
Cynics may consider their fatality rate to be acceptable, given the domestic hours and number of passengers flown, but to the bereaved it is no doubt far from acceptable.

[tolakuma manki]

paragraph377,
I have first hand knowledge of both the in flight fire accident in 1995 and the CFIT near Mendi in 1996.when the PF collided with the only piece of cumulus granite masked from view, the medical report stated the possibility of heart attack. The company I worked for recovered the body bags. In the Mendi case, 19 souls in 7 or 8 bags.

Niether of these can be slated to the Wild family or company.
The other accidents listed, especially the recent fatalaties at Madang and Kokoda were pilot error, no matter what the excuse for they making the error.
How can you make this the responsibility of the Wild family?

[troppo]

Mach
APNG grew from MBA.
There was at the time more to it though and that statement is a bit of a stretch in some respects. There are however some lines being blurred. A company is a company, a legal entity. I don't see how any of the accidents prior to 1997 can be called APNG accidents.

[Paragraph377]

Tolakuma manki
The other accidents listed, especially the recent fatalaties at Madang and Kokoda were pilot error, no matter what the excuse for they making the error.
How can you make this the responsibility of the Wild family?
Your lack of understanding about accountability and root cause and contributing causes is concerning. Both accidents in which you refer to as being 'crew error' being the cause, does not absolve a company's CEO or Board of directors from accountability under the corporations act. The causal factors in both of these accidents involves crew ability, training and other factors that lead up to their errors. For some of those errors the company is very accountable, namely its senior people.
As for the Wild family, I'm not singling them out. In fact I didn't even mention their names and I really don't care who owns, part owns, or doesn't own APNG. I'm talking about the company and its accountable people which as I said before includes a Board (not all are part of the Wild family), and the then serving CEO and the current CEO (also not Wild family members).

Even if we remove the MBA accidents you still have Madang and Kokoda with a total of 41 deaths, in 2 high profile accidents in just over a 2 year period and both under the APNG airline name.
By my books that is a shocking record, no matter how one might try to dress it up.

[Paragraph377]

Finally somebody understands. Well done Mach E Avelli.

[Mach E Avelli]

Sorry, I just deleted my post because you more or less beat me to it.
I have added a bit to post #220 to reflect original thoughts.

[tolakuma manki]

Para377,
From researching your posts, it seems you have an inbuilt antaganism toward aviation operators and owners.
Be that as it may, you would be aware that the corporate entity is not the accountable manager for aviation.
APNG employs many PNG countrymen and women as well as foreigners, you may do well to temper your bias against them on this a public forum.

Most in the industry here know, understand what occured, you are being purposely obtuse.

[JammedStab]

Even if we remove the MBA accidents you still have Madang and Kokoda with a total of 41 deaths, in 2 high profile accidents in just over a 2 year period and both under the APNG airline name.
By my books that is a shocking record, no matter how one might try to dress it up.

Not familiar with the Kokoda accident but a manager should not be held responsible for intentional or stupid actions of a pilot unless there was real reason to believe that it was inevitable and the manager was aware.

I doubt you would be telling the authorities to put yourself in jail if your child decided to sexually assault someone.

[Paragraph377]

tolakuma manki
From researching your posts, it seems you have an inbuilt antaganism toward aviation operators and owners.No, wrong again. I have an inbuilt hatred of any government body or company that lies, deceives, twists, perverts or covers over the truth. Dead pilots can't speak. Dead passengers can't speak. I try to defend the innocent and if that means my comments about some airlines lack of accountability upset some folk then so be it, I make no apologies.
Also
APNG employs many PNG countrymen and women as well as foreigners, you may do well to temper your bias against them on this a public forum.How dare you play that attempted trump card. I hold no bias against the good people at APNG, none whatsoever, never have and never will. And just in case the racist card gets played, I married someone from the middle east, have flown in Australia, NZ, PNG and the USA, and some of my best friends are from the same countries I have mentioned, as well as Singapore, Alaska and China.

JammedStab
Not familiar with the Kokoda accident but a manager should not be held responsible for intentional or stupid actions of a pilot unless there was real reason to believe that it was inevitable and the manager was aware.Hard for you to make a comment about Kokoda if you are not familiar with it? So here we go again. Pilot error is rarely the sole cause of an accident. Just as an example only, if pilot error is determined to have been caused by fatigue (shoddy rostering), inadequate or incorrect training, organisational bullying or pressure, or other organisational factors then the organisation is accountable, not just the pilots.

To assist you, please refer back to the Concord crash (link below). An Air France Concord crashes in Paris, yet Continental Airlines and one of its Engineers narrowly escape jail;

Continental Airlines and engineer John Taylor fined over French Concorde crash | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1336223/Continental-Airlines-engineer-John-Taylor-fined-French-Concorde-crash.html)

Sorry guys, you need to start looking outside the box and start drilling down. And while you are criticizing me, please don't forget the families, friends and loved ones who eternally mourn the loss of the forever departed. And yes, I do know how that feels.

I don't intend on starting a slinging match, but if you two guys serve in management roles in any airline....well something like this will happen again.

[tolakuma manki]

Para377
You are wrong as well as being purposely obtuse.

[Paragraph377]

Latest update below:

http://www.pomsox.com.pg/dimages/company_pdfs/28_2326.pdf

Some other media reports on the accident:

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-17/png-madang-crash/5530664

http://www.emtv.com.pg/news-app/item/airlines-png

http://pidp.org/pireport/2014/June/06-17-14.htm

http://www.jacdec.de/2014/06/16/2011-10-13-airlines-png-dhc-8-100-se-of-madang-png/

[JammedStab]

I don't intend on starting a slinging match, but if you two guys serve in management roles in any airline....well something like this will happen again.

Now you are just making yourself look like an idiot with stupid statements.

[Crackup]

As a former Dash 8 pilot and retired after 43 years of flying, I have been following this thread with great interest.
All I can say guys is; there but for the grace of god go I.
If lucky you will never be faced with anything like this in your entire career. If not so lucky, be ready for it, know your re-call drills and aircraft systems. Practice a glide approach occasionally. You are only as good as you are on the day. And that applies to all of us.

[E&H]

Crackup...first sensible post I've seen...didn't know any one with common sense still existed...be careful the thought police will get you...

However what you say is very true we are only ever a nano second away from disaster, the real issue here in my view was that the aircraft should never have had the ability to do this in flight and when it was first brought to light it should have been fixed

[Crackup]

E&H, I agree with you 100% that the real issue of this thread is the lack of corrective action taken as soon as the design fault was discovered. In fairness to the company I was flying for at the time, they started the process of fitting the beta lock-out system immediately after becoming aware of the severity of the problem. I do not wish to go into the debate regarding airworthiness bulletins and directives. The message of my previous posting was purely intended as helpful advice to the up-coming young guy, or young lady, who one day may be faced with having to deal with a catastrophic outcome resulting from a shortfall in the system they work under or any other cause.
Not saying that this is how it happened, but I can see how easy it would be to inadvertently select beta in the Dash 8, given the situation: Hand over the power leavers, large positive G bump, followed rapidly by a severe negative G bump. The out of control fingers would only have to catch under those latches and the rest is history. Prior to the APNG accident, like most, I was blissfully unaware of that potential.

[The Big E]

the real issue here in my view was that the aircraft should never have had the ability to do this in flight and when it was first brought to light it should have been fixed

Hear Hear.

It makes you wonder about the original Type Certification, and then the subsequent reluctance of the OEM to address the situation when it became apparent. It took several years before the National Authority mandated a fix, which became available in the form of a Service Bulletin. The FAA required it much earlier, and with hindsight the other jurisdictions should have followed suit in the name of Safety.

Regards to ya all, Big E.

[poncho73]

Gents

We must all realize that aircraft of this vintage, that were designed around the PW100 Series engines, were capable of this.
Some of these Types ran into problems in the early days when PT6 experienced pilots "assumed" the PW100 engines governed props all the way to max reverse as the PT6 did.
Fast forward 25 or so years...and BINGO, it happens again. While the decision to protect the pilot from inFlt Beta has been taken by the Regulators, it does not excuse the pilots who routinely use it during flight from being the cause. In the case of the PNG accident, there was no significant turbulence, and why would he have his fingers near the triggers at 10,000 ft anyways (not to mention it is an unnatural arm position to have your fingers grip the triggers). UNLESS, of course, that it was common practice.
If he had used this little 'trick' in the circuit, and didn't understand how the prop controls worked and repeats the 'trick' at Vmo...BOOM!
Let's use a little common sense and follow the instructions.
Pilots shouldn't ALWAYS need automation to be protected from themselves.

[Crackup]

Hi Poncho73,
I was not aware that this “little trick” was ever practiced knowingly and willingly. Thanks for filling me in on it but I don’t think I’ll try it. I’m no fan of Airbus philosophy and heartily agree with you that pilots shouldn’t always need automation to be protected from themselves, but giving this particular design flaw to pilots to play with seems akin to giving a loaded pistol with no safety catch to children.

[tolakuma manki]

but giving this particular design flaw to pilots to play with seems akin to giving a loaded pistol with no safety catch to children.
Disagree, it is more like giving a loaded pistol with a safety catch, to adults

[poncho73]

Nicely put....and correct

[Duck Pilot]

For those interested Air Crash Investigation have recently produced a very good analysis of the accident.

Air Crash Investigation Season 23 Episode 4 - Power Play.

Not sure if it’s been aired on commercial television yet, however the full length version is available online if you do a bit of digging around.

Lots of good lessons can be learnt from this tragic accident, particularly with regards to how most airlines (I’ve flown for) don’t routinely throw in left field emergency training scenarios in their simulator LOFT sessions. In all honesty, I recon I would have managed the situation exactly the same way as the crew did on that terrible day if I was on the flight deck of that aeroplane due to my training.