Qantas announcement today [Archive]

neville_nobody

13th Oct 2011, 00:36

More highly accurate reporting. :ugh:

show the most senior pilots earn up to $536,000 a year

Some sort of legal action should be taken over this quote. AIPA should be writing to Media Entertainment and Arts Alliance requesting a inquiry and putting some pressure on here. Such reporting is a blatant breach of the AJA's code of ethics. If a Pilot breached the CAR's journilists will be more than happy to point that out in the papers. A journilist blantantly breaches the their codes of ethics and nothing happens.

AJA Code of ethics
1. Report and interpret honestly, striving for accuracy, fairness and disclosure of all essential facts. Do not suppress relevant available facts, or give distorting emphasis. Do your utmost to give a fair opportunity for reply.

Qantas pilots paid more than Gillard
October 13, 2011 - 9:15AM
Qantas pilots are planning a shareholder revolt even though senior captains earn more than the prime minister. Figures obtained by News Ltd show the most senior pilots earn up to $536,000 a year. This is more than Prime Minister Julia Gillard's base salary of $366,000. Last year, some pilots received average pay rises of up to 17 per cent or $45,000, News Ltd said. The leaked figures also showed that even a second officer on an A330 gets almost $150,000 on average and starts on more than $110,000 a year. The revelations come as the Australian and International Pilots Association plans a shareholder revolt against management decisions. The union's president Captain Barry Jackson said the pay of Qantas pilots was around the middle of international pay rates and was far less then chief executive Alan Joyce's $5 million salary. Qantas faces more strife on Thursday from baggage handlers and cabin crew. Transport Workers' Union members are striking in two-hour blocks at capital city and regional airports, beginning in Adelaide at 5am (CDT) and finishing at 8pm (AEDT) in Canberra as MPs try to leave the national capital.

Read more: Industrial dispute | Qantas pilots paid more than PM Julia Gillard (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-pilots-paid-more-than-gillard-20111013-1llsm.html#ixzz1acJcPU6l)

packrat

13th Oct 2011, 00:38

The only thing that Joyce didnt do was burst into tears.
He has taken a pay cut as has most of EXco
He has presided over an airline that has generated profit over the last consecutive 8 years
He has turned around the domestic operation
Qantas is the only airline in the world to still have a triple AAA rating
These three rogue unions are attempting some sort of corporate coup.
Not one Australian job will be lost with the new subsidiary being established off shore.
All of the above is unsubstantiated guff.
The reality is that the union efforts are working.
Keep it up gentleman.This conference indicates that EXco have no idea how to deal with this current enviornment.
Thank God we were spared an appearance by OW

adsyj

13th Oct 2011, 00:38

Did he or did he not say starting an overseas based airline will not result in one job loss but will in fact create more jobs.

I am confused

vitamin B

13th Oct 2011, 00:40

Channel 9 has been reporting grounding is 4/747 and 1/767. This is at variance from previous postings of 4/737s which I would presume are the old clapped out 734s that QF, thanks to the LAMES have been able to keep in the air.

VB

duderanch

13th Oct 2011, 00:41

re Neville nobody.

Funny no comparison between Exec's and News Ltd pay vs prime minister.

Captain.Que

13th Oct 2011, 00:41

767s and 737s only
No grounding of international aircraft

Toruk Macto

13th Oct 2011, 00:54

Is this a sign of the future, just retire the domestic fleet untill there is none left?

Xcel

13th Oct 2011, 01:05

Funny.

Did he say that they are now 12% short on maintenance manpower because they are working to rule and not doing overtime.

So he has just said straight out that if their workforce works to the rules of it's contract then they have mismanaged their workforce and don't have enough staff. That they rely on the good faith of it's employees to keep it's aircraft in the air and cover their incompetence.

Did he also not say that pilots are abusing their power by making political messages on pa's. Err so what did you do today aj.

Did he not say that moving to Asia would not cost a single job. So why the redundancies?

Did he also refer to qantas pilots wanting jetstar conditions to change? Err this is impossible under IR legislation.

This guy has no idea!:ugh:

wishiwasupthere

13th Oct 2011, 01:09

There will be an AIPA press conference at 1200.

Really???? Well if so, they've been trumped on Skynews by the 'Australian Tourism Export Councils' press conference on the Qantas announcement. You guys are being slaughtered in the media. If the comments on most of the news articles are any indication, the general public is not on your side.

Abbreviation Slic

13th Oct 2011, 01:18

If you think comments on news sites are representative of the general public, you're dreaming. I'll stick with the objective polling that AIPA does regularly with large sample sizes for now.

POT100

13th Oct 2011, 01:23

Its only been 2 weeks of OT bans and its already biting..History repeating itself!!
If AJ and co concentrated on investing and pushing the International Ops like they are handsomely paid to do,instead of supplementing Jetstar and whinging about some unions, we won't be in this ****e!..I see full J and Y cabins everyday on international ops..and we're not making money? - my arse!!
Its time the Fund managers wake up to what is going on and vote this management team OUT!!.
Unfortunately their answer to competition is to sack 1000 staff,blame everyone but themselves and pack up and head for Asia.
Clearly they have no idea how too react..
If only Fyfe was available!!!

:=

wishiwasupthere

13th Oct 2011, 01:29

I'll stick with the objective polling that AIPA does regularly with large sample sizes for now.

Mate, I hope you are right. As a neutral observer, its frustrating as hell seeing the management lies get all the airtime with no rebuttle forthcoming other than on Pprune!

ohallen

13th Oct 2011, 01:31

'Australian Tourism Export Councils' press conference

Fronted by guess who....GD.

AIPA have been totally starved of oxygen and the Rat wins again. Not one TV news coverage of any response.

Sorry guys, this game is over in the PR arena and you have been completely routed.Then again, some dont seem to think this is important, so good luck in wherever you are going from here.

The Rat also went to some lengths to tarnish all three unions with the same brush, so that was hardly coincidental whilst repeating the wages claim issues.

Shed Dog Tosser

13th Oct 2011, 01:38

Who cares about the PR game.

Public Perception will not:

* stop the unions using their PIA and giving the company reason to really negotiate,
* cause pilots, engineers or ground staff to accept a ****e EBA.

Sure, play the PR game, the pilots, engineers and ground staff will only lose if they sign a ****e EBA.

It is just a matter of time, stand together, you might lose the occasional battle, but make sure you win the war.

Abbreviation Slic

13th Oct 2011, 01:38

"AIPA have been totally starved of oxygen and the Rat wins again. Not one TV news coverage of any response"

Well given that the AIPA press conference finished about 4 minutes ago, I'd be surpirised if that wasn't the case.

I know there are people on here who are doing their best to push AIPA into taking stronger action as soon as possible. They should relaise that it is not going to work.

Swimbetweentheflags

13th Oct 2011, 01:41

"Between the three unions we are seeing almost daily strikes, bans on overtime, political messages being read out to customers on international and domestic flights and union leaders telling passengers to expect disruptions for many months to come, " Mr Joyce said.

So Domestic flights are now having these in flight Pilot announcements hey :hmm:

qf 1

13th Oct 2011, 01:45

well since the Qantas PR machine seems to be getting the upper hand ,perhaps they to can throw on some overalls on and get the aircraft fixed and signed off..:ok:

threecombs

13th Oct 2011, 01:45

Just curious, AIPA keep crowing about the amount of experience on the QF32 flight deck. Can anyone tell me how much experience was on the flight deck of that 747 that slammed off the end of the runway in Bangkok?

gutso-blundo

13th Oct 2011, 01:58

Probably a fair bit mate, but there's more than one factor at play, as in any accident. One of the large contributing factors to that little soirée was the fact they were required to use only idle reverse thrust. A requirement brought in by some bright spark in management whose focus was not on safety, but on saving money...

ohallen

13th Oct 2011, 02:15

My point was not intended to promote stronger action but rather some balance to the public debate with some informative facts.

The fact that the Rat got live coverage on at least three TV channels and not one that I could find covered AIPA response says it all really. The press don't care and the public are left with Rat spin.

You will probably get a mention in tomorrows press, but the game is over if not addressed immediately. This is 21st century media dynamics and if no one wants to play the game that's fine by me, but not what I would have expected knowing what is at stake for us all.

Good luck.

theheadmaster

13th Oct 2011, 02:39

I will bight threecombs by answering: look at the background of the captains in the QF32, the QF30 oxy bottle failure, and the QF72 A330 controllability issue (and the Jetstar A330 problem with the 'Qantas' captain). They all came from backgrounds that, while not perfect in their safety records, invested heavily in the training of their personnel. The Bangkok accident was, IMHO, the result of the poor airmanship of the captain. I believe that core flying skills and airmanship are what will get you out of trouble in that 1:1 000 000 situation. Unfortunately in this new low-cost world with reduced flying requirements, in the future, even though the likelihood of aircraft failures is lower, I believe that there will be hull losses that you would have been expecting the older generation of crew to be able to save, e.g. Air France.

Nunc

13th Oct 2011, 02:58

BJ on ABC earlier and still getting plenty of airtime on ABC 24. Spoke very well and got the required message re company generated lies across, Olivia could learn a lot from his well articulated press conference. Well done Baz.

teresa green

13th Oct 2011, 03:38

And just when you thought it could not get any worse,the govt. is now threatening to intervene. Judging on their past record of not being able to organise a :mad: in a brothel, this should throw the cat amoungst the pidgeons. Time to find a comfortable chair, get some popcorn and watch it all unfold. Hopefully it will be Employees (one) Qantas (nil).:ugh:

duderanch

13th Oct 2011, 03:48

And who is pushing the government to do this.... Tourism Australia. Have a guess who is chairman of that group. Check out the link but I suggest you sit down.

Tourism Australia - Our Management (http://www.tourism.australia.com/en-au/aboutus/our-management.aspx)

Absolutely dispicable.

clotted

13th Oct 2011, 03:51

So Domestic flights are now having these in flight Pilot announcements hey
I suggest you stay between the flags.
747-400, A330 and lots of B767 aircraft fly domestically sometimes even the A380 I believe.

1A_Please

13th Oct 2011, 04:02

There is no doubt that the industrial action is beginning to hurt QF.

I have a key role in an SME that spends upward of $15K per month on domestic travel typically split 60/40 in QF's favour. Due to the questionable reliability and huge issues in dealing with QF getting refunds etc, not to mention having to pay top dollar when rebooking late in the piece with VA, I today instructed all EA's to book all travel with VA exclusively until further notice unless the travel is to a destination served solely by QF.

I can't imagine I'm the only organisation feeling this frustration and taking action.

clotted

13th Oct 2011, 04:03

the fact they were required to use only idle reverse thrust.

I don't believe that to be a correct statement. My reading of the ATSB report was that idle reverse was the standard mode as always subject to the Captain's operational judgement on the day. I also believe that report recorded that while 3 of the engines were in idle thrust (not idle reverse though and I'm told there is a significant difference), the other one of them was actually in forward thrust with the thrust lever advanced a knob or two.
I'm sure that the bright spark in management didn't decree that this configuration of thrust was the standard to be used on a dark rainy night.
I was also told that the PIC changing his mind and landing part the way through a missed approach wasn't standard company policy.

Keg

13th Oct 2011, 04:07

Guys, QF1, OJH and BKK have been done to death on PPRUNE. Do a search. The ATSB was pretty clear about what mistakes were made and who made them. In the mean time, let's try and keep our eye on the ball.

prairiegirl

13th Oct 2011, 04:15

12.36pm: The federal government is threatening to intervene in an industrial dispute at Qantas, warning trade unions they should not set out to damage local industry.
Tourism Minister Martin Ferguson, following his address to an industry conference in Canberra, said the sector's patience was running out with the unions. "The sooner the parties get in a room and sort it out the better," he told reporters. If they did not, the government could require the parties to resolve their issues under the umbrella of the Fair Work Act.
The Act already provided that, in exceptional circumstances, industrial action that had wider implications than for just one business can be suspended or terminated if it threatened significant damage to the economy or to the welfare or safety of the population, Mr Ferguson said.
He described as "un-Australian" comments by Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers association secretary Steve Purvinas urging people to boycott Qantas. They also were a sad reflection of his leadership. "You can have a dispute with employers but there is a responsibility on trade union leaders to never set out to damage Australian industry," Mr Ferguson said.

Read more: Qantas Flights Cancelled & Delayed | Rugby World Cup Flights (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/live-blog-qantas-axes-100-flights-a-week-20111013-1llpj.html#ixzz1adEgCKbP)

TIMA9X

13th Oct 2011, 04:25

Today's full announcement part 1 (part 2 to follow)
c-ReroCAT7E

k7OCkC37ePE

GUARD

13th Oct 2011, 05:21

It's all very well to admonish the unions and staff for failing to negotiate but what is the company offer. Withdraw industrial action?

Unfortunately the negotiations have descended into a public slanging match or like a pushing episode in a schoolyard fight. Either both parties shake hands and get back into an adult mindset of working through the issues together or someone should throw a big punch and get it over with..

I'm not particularly happy with the way either party is handling things. There is far too much emphasis on who is winning the media war and not enough emphasis on what ought be negotiated and what is actually available to be negotiated.

Alan Joyce and the board have an absolute obligation to calm the situation and that might actually involve making a suitable compromise in all the circumstances.

Both parties back to the table and get to work. Try being honest. A lot of people's lives depend upon it !!!

GUARD

JT9D

13th Oct 2011, 05:41

This is a ploy by AJ & Co to paint doom and gloom ,a/c grounding etc etc . If Qantas is doing it though how about the board members lead from the front and take a pay cut.
All this garbage is to get the Fed Gov involved before the AGM and put a stop to the industrial action so that his team will look good in the eyes of the institution share holders.

Do not fall for this:=

UPPERLOBE

13th Oct 2011, 06:09

Re GD.

He doesn't miss a trick and he really goes after what he wants. Wasn't he the driver behind Work Choices? and now he appears to be pushing his barrow from behind his Tourism and Aircraft leasing interests.

What do QF want? an army of underpaid, undertrained, poorly treated and expendable slaves all working for a series of cheap as chips LCC's is apparently what.

Should whoever drafted the Qantas sales act have seen this coming?

The media manipulation of this saga is obscene and breathtaking. I can't believe that OUR Federal Government can't/won't see what the game is and demand a positive outcome for Australia and all Australians. What we see happening today is surely the direct result of the rationale behind the push for cross media ownership laws.

Just like the USA our founding fathers saw the whole game and put barriers in place to stop such things from happening, our current politicians of all party's do not have the fortitude or integrity to stand up to corporate greed.

How do they allow Thai cabin crew to be operated point to point within Australia in the first place? forget the slave wages, horrendous hours and severe discipline, how does this happen when the same Government bleats about how bad things are in developing countries and sends our tax dollars abroad as foreign aid whilst turning a blind eye because corporate Australia wants to import and ultimately impose these conditions within this country?

eocvictim

13th Oct 2011, 06:18

Hang on, the fed gov can only intervene if industrial action affects more than the company involved, ok. I thought qantas didn't hold any substantial share of international travel, so who's hurt?

PPRuNeUser0198

13th Oct 2011, 06:46

"un-Australian" comments by Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers association secretary Steve Purvinas urging people to boycott Qantas.

Agreed. I don't have an issue if you strike - but to tell the public not to fly Qantas is appalling. That's putting at risk the very members who you represent...

aveng

13th Oct 2011, 06:51

The federal government is threatening to intervene in an industrial dispute at Qantas, warning trade unions they should not set out to damage local industry.

Great - We should welcome it. Whilst the unions are discussing things, why don't they call in the Airforce boss and discuss the flagrant loss of defence capability in Australia due to Qantas off-shoreing. All the experts that they have made redundant and the now aging workforce.

Thanks to Martin Furgusson for his snide remark on what he believes Qantas ALAEA members earn in the press today. Bet I have more training than him and earn a lot less.:ugh:

breakfastburrito

13th Oct 2011, 06:52

12.36pm: The federal government is threatening to intervene in an industrial dispute at Qantas, warning trade unions they should not set out to damage local industry.
Tourism Minister Martin Ferguson, following his address to an industry conference in Canberra, said the sector's patience was running out with the unions. "The sooner the parties get in a room and sort it out the better," he told reporters. If they did not, the government could require the parties to resolve their issues under the umbrella of the Fair Work Act.
The Act already provided that, in exceptional circumstances, industrial action that had wider implications than for just one business can be suspended or terminated if it threatened significant damage to the economy or to the welfare or safety of the population, Mr Ferguson said.

To me this like desperation. What this looks like is government sanctioned price controls.
Yes it may work in the short term, but is simply removes the incentive to bear enormous financial risks to become a pilot. Those that were thinking of coming back from overseas will consider this as a major risk. Those considering their options with respect to LWOP/ resignation will now add this their calculus. This could well push many to leave.

Price controls have almost always led to shortages & ultimately higher prices for the commodity that is capped, as producers simply stop producing or take their commodity elsewhere.

gobbledock

13th Oct 2011, 06:56

12.36pm: The federal government is threatening to intervene in an industrial dispute at Qantas, warning trade unions they should not set out to damage local industry.Tourism Minister Martin Ferguson Another joke. Ferguson should stick his nose back where it belongs - in a trough filled with political goodies and luxuries. The government does not give a sh#t about never ending safety concerns, does not give a sh#t about all the QF staff being made redundant, dont even give a sh#t about that incompetetnt outfit CASA, but what, now they are concerned? Pathetic worms. Are the pollies afraid they may not have a business class seat available if planes are parked, and maybe they will have to fly on an Embraer or a bug smasher ??

Sorry folks, the red haired carbon clown and her conglomerate of suckholes can't organise a chcocolate raffle let alone fix anything else. My advice to them is simple -f#ck off, you are useless bottom dewlling taxpayer fund wasting nupties, keep your hands off QF before you contribute to yet another clusterf#ck. Same goes for Abbott, Bob Brown and any other political redneck living in 'cloud cuckoo land' !!
(Except Xenaphon, he can get involved :ok:)

denabol

13th Oct 2011, 07:02

I wonder who Plane Talking has been talking to.

Qantas grounds jets but risks its Asia strategy in govt plea | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/10/13/the-little-qantas-culture-of-failure-and-helplessness-kicks-in/)

Sandilands suggests that the government might intervene to save Qantas from the impasse, but the price would be dropping its Asian strategy because it is political poison. Ouch.

Time for some pop corn.

teresa green

13th Oct 2011, 07:07

Eh Gobbledock, you are not related to Mark Latham are you? Must say though love your post. I like a bloke that does not talk bovine manure.:D

600ft-lb

13th Oct 2011, 07:08

Wonder how many politicians have politely declined a Chairman's Club invitation..

Not many I'm guessing.

This rhetoric coming from a former ACTU President about unions from the political party formed by unions and historically, supposed to be the blue collar party.

Amazing

What an esteemed career this bloke has.

Ferguson was educated at St Patrick's College, Strathfield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Patrick%27s_College,_Strathfield) and then the University of Sydney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_University_of_Sydney). He was successively research officer, Assistant General Secretary and General Secretary of the Miscellaneous Workers' Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscellaneous_Workers%27_Union), a member of the executive of the Australian Council of Trade Unions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Council_of_Trade_Unions) (ACTU) 1984–90. He was Vice-President of the ACTU 1985–90 and President of the ACTU 1990–96. He was a member of the Governing Body of the International Labour Organisation1990–96. He was appointed a Member of the Order of Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Australia) in 1996.

Ferguson was elected to the Opposition Shadow Ministry in March 1996A career politician.. need more be said.

neville_nobody

13th Oct 2011, 07:10

our current politicians of all party's do not have the fortitude or integrity to stand up to corporate greed.

Correct. That is because politicians on both sides are beholden to major corporations who have more money and power than they do. Just look at all the rackets that the Labour party has pulled over the years.

The whole '89 debacle with Hawke & Abels
Shafting Australian companies tendering for the NBN by accusing them all of price collusion then given the cream of the work to a foreign multinational
The debacle that was the pink batts, and the schools programs and all the price gouging.
The secret deal cut with the big mining companies over the mining tax and shafting all the smaller players

The Liberals were slightly less incompetent as they just created legislation that the big business wanted anyway. Less tax, corporation friendly work laws etc.

Don't forget too that senior politicians and PM's have much to lose over QF as they can kiss all that lifetime business class travel goodbye.

Cookie7

13th Oct 2011, 07:11

G'dock, I reckon you might have post of the year tied up!
I haven't pissed myself so hard in ages, well done! :ok:

Angle of Attack

13th Oct 2011, 07:26

Pop Corn indeed, I sense there is some desperation and some behind the scenes moves within the QF management stay tuned....

AN1944

13th Oct 2011, 08:55

Are they getting better loadings??? Aj is trying hard to put paxs on them get rid of the board i will certainly bring this up at next share holders meeting him first:d

Short_Circuit

13th Oct 2011, 09:01

Today’s headline grabber was Joyce’s announcement that because its licensed engineers were working to rule and not performing overtime it would ground four 737s and one 767 for at least a month from Monday, reducing domestic lift by a total of 97 flights a week primarily on services between Adelaide, Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane.Most if not all are already grounded because of unactioned maintenance (corrosion inspections / rectification) from previously outsourced maintenance?

Worrals in the wilds

13th Oct 2011, 09:17

AJ on 7 News was very fuzzy on the reason for the groundings. You got the feeling that he'd like you to think it was IR related, but it wasn't actually said. Nor was a clear reason given in the commentary. 'Qantas is grounding aircraft humph humph humph...ongoing IR trouble' was pretty much the summary, with random pics of Qantas aircraft and baggies/caterers looking tough.

+1 gobbledock. Let's not forget that this is a Labor goverment and the Labor Party is supposed to be the workers' party. We all know that's a crock, but it's worth saying anyway. They're obviously too busy with Carbon Tax kissypoos and onshore processing damage control to have much time for workers at the moment, not that uniLabor ever met many actual workers anyway. :yuk:

Dixons Millions

13th Oct 2011, 09:33

Nice one Gobble....!

Anyone have a link to Barry Jackson today on ABC 24?

Thanks in advance,

Dixons.

mourgo

13th Oct 2011, 10:33

Greedy Qantas employees thats what they all are and stupid unions. The government should NOT allow this to happen.

Qantas pilots, catering crew, baggage handlers and engineers are paid some of the BEST wages in the world (even for Australian standards). Their T&C are some of the best!

If this striking action keeps up you will lose your job!!!

Then ill be laughing at you all when you cant pay your mortgage and feed your family my tax money will be supporting you!!!

You realise a baggage handler can make more money that an accountant?

GREEEDDYY bastards you all are. Union leaders should be in jail.

RATpin

13th Oct 2011, 10:33

Sorry Boys,this is playing out at a level above your collective pay grades(mine included). Why do you think A.J. was one off the first to embrace the Carbon Tax?

standard

13th Oct 2011, 10:38

surely you are taking the pi$$ Mourgo?

Not sure if this is a bait?

Shed Dog Tosser

13th Oct 2011, 10:42

Do not feed the trolls ( or company muppets in this case ).

Ngineer

13th Oct 2011, 10:43

Not one Australian job will go as a result of these plans.

Of course not. They will go for other reasons I am sure. We've learnt how they play this game. I am sure they are already greedily crunching the Brissy numbers.

The federal government is threatening to intervene in an industrial dispute at Qantas

And they will loose many votes in the process. This is a battle between the people and corp greed.

vitamin B

13th Oct 2011, 10:46

Does anyone have any info on registration numbers of the 737s grounded? are they all TJ'X' series?

VB

ALAEA Fed Sec

13th Oct 2011, 10:49

TJW grounded and requires screwjack. Nil stock on that one, workshop shut down some time ago.

Worrals in the wilds

13th Oct 2011, 10:53

For those of us who aren't LAMEs (forgive us... :}) what does that mean? Is it cactused? Is it too broken to repair? Is it in need of more LAMEs? Like unto a Datsun Cherry? How about the rest of them?

mourgo

13th Oct 2011, 10:54

mourgo

13th Oct 2011, 10:57

Did I mention I would never employ ex Qantas staff for my airline? I think Mc Donalds is employing right now.

BP2197

13th Oct 2011, 10:58

Couldn't we all just have individual contracts and then we would get the market rate - ie if they don't offer enough they won't get the people required to do the work. Don't have to worry about government trying to set wages then.

ALAEA Fed Sec

13th Oct 2011, 11:00

Hey Mourgo,

I'm a LAME. I'll give you ten minutes to name any profession that would require that person to have sat and passed as many exams as I have. Give it your best shot.

Worrals in the wilds

13th Oct 2011, 11:03

Pay pay pay. That's what QF management are talking about. What about respect, morale and all the other fuzzy stuff? That's what's been lacking at Qantas for the past decade. These are intangibles that can't be considered part of an EBA dispute but that's what's been missing. Hating employees can get a company so far, but when it comes to EBA time... look what happens. The ALAEA and TWU comments have been nothing more than a fairly polite reflection of what the staff have been saying for some time.

So the employees make more money than their competitors? True. Funny how they're more upset than their competitors' employees. When was the last Alliance IR dispute? The last Virgin dispute? Even though they get Less Money? There is more to IR disharmony than money. The TWU and ALAEA also represent employees from those companies, as well as NZ and CX Engineering, Toll Dnata, Menzies, Gate Gourmet and Alpha Flight Catering. Funny how their 'unions' aren't making waves, isn't it?

This is about Qantas and the way they run their company. As for the TWU Qantas members, their jobs are :mad:ed anyway. They've been told that by various middle managers and now...they believe them. What's to lose, when you're rooted whichever way?

P.S. McDonalds are a decent employer with career progression opportunities. Franchise arrangements notwithstanding, when was their last IR dispute? From outside observation, I would far rather work for Maccas than Qantas. At least they care about selling their product and support their staff.

600ft-lb

13th Oct 2011, 11:12

Mourgo .. Mongo
All originally quoted by Mongo
Geez.. Maybe I shouldnt come to Emirates. I'll stick to my A320 in Australia. Sounds very bad to work for EK!

BTW anyone flying MEL - KUL A340-500 on 4th May?
Can any crew (pilots / FA) comment on working at VA? Compared to the likes of Qantas or other major international airlines, what are the conditions like, pay, culture, benefits etc? Just some general comments here.
Can someone tell me whats the difference if you start engine 1 first or engine 2 first. I know some airlines SOP say engine 1 1st and some airlines SOP say engine 2 1st? Does it matter?
Qantas Flight Simulators Essendon
4 years ago i got the chance to visit the Essendon flight simulators and watch pilots train on a 737-400. Any pilots out there fly the A330 or A320 that want to take me on a flight simulator ride. Its a life long dream on the Airbus. I'll pay anything
damn,

I knew some air nauru pilots a few years back. Watched emergency procedured performed in the 737.

Looks like ill have to go to london and pay $3500 to fly them..
All you pilots just complain and complain. I'd hate to turn out like that. There's starving people in this world and we worry about money? How bad can it be? A newby with an airline id guess you would get about 70-100k AUD a year. I have a passion for the industry so money will not motivate me at all.

Like i said i have enough income to stay home and do nothing for the next 3 years and live like a king. I've had a taste of flying in a real simulator and i love it.
And in 2005
Australian Pilots
Can any Aussie pilots out there give me some info on starting a career as an airline pilot. I know the industry is hard to get into. Money is not an issue.. Where do I start?

You're a bit of an aerosexual so I'm guessing you 'own' JetExperiences.

Please I'm begging can I work for a numpty like you ?

mourgo

13th Oct 2011, 11:17

ALAEA i never said Engineers dont have an education. Im sure you worked hard to achieve what you have. And Im sure you are paid very well for it.

And i must repeat myself im not sticking up for Qantas. I just think there is too much greed out there and unions have nothing better to do. If you dont like your employer or pay then leave. Theres many many more people out there doing it hard with crap jobs and crap pay. In these economic times we should all be greatful we have a job.

The airline I work for contracts all its employees on 10 year contracts that are renewable. No unions and reasonable pay and conditions. My team are very happy.

victor two

13th Oct 2011, 11:18

I'll have a go Stevie Wonder,
Pilot, Doctor, Sports Physio, surgeon, environmental scientist, occupational hygienist, aeronautical engineer, magistrate, civil engineer, pretty much anyone with a degree, pretty much anyone who has gone onto post trade studies............ gee....... quite a few really so your academic "test taking" prowess is actually as common as flies on a turd. Sorry no gold sticker for you today test master fed sec.

You are in a league of your own for various other reasons however, I shall list them also -
Unrivalled Poor leadership
unchallenged Poor negotiating skills
laughable Poor people skills
Really Poor PR skills ( you should get some tips from Olivia Wirth as she goes OK on the tv)
Sadly Poor communication skills (see above)
Woefully High blood pressure ( i suspect)
Obvious Low anger management ability
Sadly Low charisma
Obvious Low intelligence
Historical Low success rate in IR discussion
Historical low chance of winning this current debacle of a union attack
Higher than average chance of digging your comarades into a deep hole
Higher than average chance that your comrades will be looking for jobs overseas within 12 months with some tin pot chinese start up airline

That was only two minutes worth....

But, I hear that you do a wicked sausage sizzle for the comrades, so battle on my son, wave your flag and keep up the angry face! Its highly amusing to watch.

mourgo

13th Oct 2011, 11:20

HAHAHA 600ft yeah I never made it to be a pilot BUT now in the corporate world of the airlines industry.. (NOT AUSTRALIA BTW).

:)
Pleased you took the time to research me..

Worrals in the wilds

13th Oct 2011, 11:25

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/post_old.gif 28th Aug 2008, 13:19 Replies: 56
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/thread_hot_lock.gif 19 Years (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/340260-19-years.html)
Views: 4,882
Posted By victor two (http://www.pprune.org/members/82484-victor-two)

It's a known fact that the strike was the best thing that ever happened to Aussie aviation. It reset the reality check machine perfectly.

A bunch of ego driven and highly underworked pilots who were being paid fairly at the time wanted to try and hold a nation to ransom. They got slapped in the face, kicked in the rear end and, 19 years on, still have not come to terms with the humiliation of their shameful loss.

For all those who post on here saying that their phones were bugged and they were followed by men in dark coats and suglasses. It never happened. That's just the paranoia which comes from drinking too much and spending too many hours alone dwelling on the past.

In fact, the broom needs a good push through the industry again to collect the rubbish it missed back in '89. Yours I believe? :hmm:

ALAEA Fed Sec

13th Oct 2011, 11:33

Victor Two,

I don't see any profession there where a person would have been required to pass the 120 exams I have sat, nearly all with a 75% pass mark. Correct me if I am wrong, spare the insults.

limelight

13th Oct 2011, 11:35

Read the Ben Sandilands article at Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/?source=cmailer)

Article titled The 'Little Qantas' culture.

The last sentence of the article says it all.

'nuff said.

adsyj

13th Oct 2011, 11:36

I think you will find Victor Two was a failure in the aviation industry.

UP D Date

13th Oct 2011, 11:37

1 x 767, & 4 x 737's????
Shows the complete disconnect between the top of the company and the coalface!
I've seen a lot more than that grounded in the last two weeks.....and it hasn't really even begun yet! How short their memories are!
Obviously by the time the message reaches whatever Neil Perry restaurant the CEO is in at the time, it barely resembles reality!

neville_nobody

13th Oct 2011, 11:49

Victor-2 You have no idea mate. Doctors would be the only ones who would come close to the amount of study and proficiency required by LAME's. I would suggest that Medicine is probably harder to complete than being a LAME however once you have finished your 8 odd years of study for medicine the pressure is off in terms of study. For pilots and/or LAMES it never ends.

I would love to see to pilot/LAME type testing and reviews brought into other industries and just watch them all blow up. Imagine if you made doctors or lawyers do quarterly exams and practical reviews. They would be up in arms!! Let's make Judges do 6 monthly law exams. That's probably why they are self regulated anyway.

Let's have a open discussion about CRM and self reporting in Medicine...that worked really well didn't it!!:mad:

In terms of work proficiency and competency no industry in the world anywhere comes close to aviation. No one.

As the saying goes 'Doctors can bury their mistakes. Pilots are buried in theirs'.

The Voice

13th Oct 2011, 11:58

Lawyers (and Dr's too) need to continually upskill and keep up with emerging trends and developments .. in particular, there is a requirement for all lawyers to complete regular (usually programmed monthly) continual professional development units to be able to maintain then gain their annual practice certificates.

Perhaps stick to comparing apples with apples instead of dragging in other professions ..

Worrals in the wilds

13th Oct 2011, 12:00

Let's be careful on that one. Court Lawyers (Barristers) are tested every single time they appear for a client. Do well? The client walks free. Do badly? They do time. Of course the client may be right for it, but maybe they weren't. That's the burden a Barrister carries every with every guilty verdict. (agree re the Judges re-certifying, btw). As for doctors, the outcomes can be even worse, speaking as someone who lost a close relative to medical malpractice.

Don't lose sight of the key issues and get caught up in a "They earn" bitch fight. The figures quoted in the press irt to pilots and LAMEs are clearly wrong. However, what's a lawyer earn? I'll bet that a number of readers will say 'over a million.' This may be correct for a few Melbourne/Sydney silks but for the most part...they earn about what you do. No more, no less. This is about aviation, not other professions.

Don't get sidetracked by subverts and managers who question your skills, because all that happens is that all workers (and I include professionals in that, much as they'd like to dispute it :}) get shafted by their employers, whether they be private or government. One of the problems lawyers in this state face is; they have no Union. They have no-one to speak on their behalf (apart from the various 'associations' who are busy with their own problems) so they get shafted. They won't tell you that because...they're lawyers. :} .

Motorola

13th Oct 2011, 12:10

Steve Purvinas can represent me any day.

VBPCGUY

13th Oct 2011, 12:26

I dont work for Qantas or care about them. I just hate unions who have nothing better to do and create negativity to the media. They brainwash employees believeing they are being hard done by.

I know for a fact what Qantas workers get paid in all areas and its pretty good especially being a baggage handler, check in staff and catering staff (no education needed for that job).

Customers will leave and go to other airlines, forcing permanent flight cancellations and shrinking the fleet just to stay profitable. Obviously this will lead to job cuts so the people striking?????? Killing their own future and jobs.

Totally agree, now SP let's remember LAME's at other airlines would sit the exact same exams as QF LAME's is that not correct? Also let's not forget the person doing the same job at QF as myself is on 12% more than myself, yet when it came to our EBA negations we were continually lied to by the TWU about potential PIA we were told it was going to happen, and the union wanted as much support as possible and wanted people to become union members and have their union dues waived for three months, so silly me signed on, silly me started having my wages docked for union dues, and the union hadn't even put the paperwork to Fairwork Australia for PIA, you and Sheldon are nothing but rorts, union rorts.

neville_nobody

13th Oct 2011, 12:28

Disagree with that one. Lawyers doing professional development is not the same as flight testing. A Laywer doesn't lose his license if he loses a case.
A judge doesn't get fired if his ruling is overthrown on appeal. Pilots too get sued. Anyway this is a side issue, we need to remain on message and that is QF being destroyed from the inside out.

Chronic Snoozer

13th Oct 2011, 12:39

I just think there is too much greed out there and unions have nothing better to do.

Spoken like a true capitalist. But who is being greedy? Hedge funds? Wall Street? Board Directors? CEOs? would-be CEOs? Is their greed not to be questioned? What would be a better thing for a union to do exactly?

If you dont like your employer or pay then leave.

And what if I liked my employer or pay, but then they changed and so did my pay? What about my family/career/mortgage/commitments? Such a typically 'let them eat cake' statement which totally ignores the reality of middle class working life.

Theres many many more people out there doing it hard with crap jobs and crap pay.

...and probably not represented by a union.

I'm not a union man, but it is safe to say that without the collective action of the masses we would all be working 12 hours a day for 50c an hour, and being flogged by robber barons for the privilege. I think its worth allowing unions a little latitude on this one. Especially when career politicians and corporate fat cats begin to collude ala Fergie & Dixie.

gobbledock

13th Oct 2011, 12:46

Victor2 and Mourgo are clearly a pair of chumps who never cut it in the big league, and now vent their disdain and wrath at those who had the smarts and testicles to attain a career path worthy of mention.
Victor 2/Mourgo, go back to your two bit outfit in Zimbabwe or Columbia, take your triplet Ken Borough with you and never be seen again.
You clowns may hate Unions with a passion, but unions offer something you nupties, Politicians and QF execs will never be able to offer - Loyalty.
Whether you like the unions in this issue or not, at least they are willing to show their cards, play a straight hand and show it for all it is worth, unlike Team Joyce.
Labor used to be the party for the working men (and gals), now you have a line up of inbred cabbages running (ruining) Australia. Again I reiterate that anything the Orange Clown and friends touch turns to effluent. Keep away from QF and for once try to do what you were elected to do, serve the people, not your own self interests.

Steve, you have my support, take it to them eye to eye, make it a fight to remember, if QF punch you - knee them in the balls, if QF kick you - bitch slap them and poke their eyes out. Throw away the rule book, play hard, play dirty, play it to the bitter end.

Long Bay Mauler

13th Oct 2011, 14:42

Let's remember who has had a hand in some of the turmoil of the aviation industry in the past 20 years, namely the ALP.

1. They sided with the airline bosses in 1989

2. They wrote the Qantas Sales Act

I can just see it now, Martin Ferguson being the Knight in shining armour to rescue Queen Julia in Carbon Tax-land, by slaying the evil unions with the magic FWA sword.

The country will be saved from those nasty engineers, and he will look good in the eyes of the boy from Wagga, Tourism Australia boss, none other than Geoff.

I think our Socialist Champagne buddies in Canberra are about to stitch us up and look after their pals LC & AJ. Its just so predictable.

Anulus Filler

13th Oct 2011, 15:04

I think our Socialist Champagne buddies in Canberra are about to stitch us up and look after their pals LC & AJ. Its just so predictable.

That may be the case, but to have a bunch of p!ssed off people working on the floor will do no good either.

The Professor

13th Oct 2011, 15:24

“I'll give you ten minutes to name any profession that would require that person to have sat and passed as many exams as I have.”

The market has no interest in how many exams you are required to complete.

The market is only interested in examining the cost of aircraft maintenance conducted by QF compared to the cost at competitor airlines in Australia and more importantly the wider region.

What exactly does the hefty premium paid to QF engineering staff get QF that staff from other carriers or maintenance organizations cant provide for less?

Chronic Snoozer

13th Oct 2011, 15:36

Competence. Integrity. Peace of Mind.

The market has no interest in how many exams you are required to complete.

The 'market' is a bunch of computer algorithms trading in microseconds. Time to put people back into the corporate strategy. You know....'our greatest asset.'

D.Lamination

13th Oct 2011, 16:47

Spot on Bug-A-Lugs

The military has only ever been used twice to break a strike - both times by the supposed worker's friends in the ALP.

1. Chifley used the army to break the 1948/49 coal strike

2. Hawke used the airforce in the 1989 pilots dispute:yuk:

When the ALP rules it is a triumvirate of big government, big business and big unions. Everyone else gets squashed.:mad:

Exhibit (A) - favoured treatment of big miners at the expense of small ones under the revised Mining Tax.

Now the TWU is a "big union" and as such may be spared the pain but the ALAEA and AIPA, while ACTU affiliated (unlike AFAP in '89) are small unions. Whose interest will prevail: big business or small unions?

Just be careful & smart out there guys.

Sunfish

13th Oct 2011, 18:37

Professor:

“I'll give you ten minutes to name any profession that would require that person to have sat and passed as many exams as I have.”

The market has no interest in how many exams you are required to complete.

The market is only interested in examining the cost of aircraft maintenance conducted by QF compared to the cost at competitor airlines in Australia and more importantly the wider region.

What exactly does the hefty premium paid to QF engineering staff get QF that staff from other carriers or maintenance organizations cant provide for less?

With the deepest respect Professor; since you joined this forum in 2005, you have consistently posted rubbish that demonstrates that you are an uneducated fool with their head stuck firmly up your backside.

Where did you get this idea that there is a hefty Premium paid to Qantas Engineering Staff??????? This is bullshyte!

To make such a comparison requires consideration of not just raw basic wages, but the hours actually worked and paid for at those rates.

You should be aware that the labour force used in some Asian businesses is Three times the size of an equivalent Australian workforce, which negates the cost advantage.

You should also be aware that the quality of the output is shyte, as has been demonstrated by the extensive rectification work required on Qantas Aircraft when they have returned from the tender ministrations of overseas MRO's.

You should also be aware that the Chinese have no loyalties outside family members, as demonstrated by numerous scandals such as the melamine in baby formula episode. The chances of the Chinese diligently and reliably following the exact tenets of an Airbus or Boeing maintenance manual are non existent. They will lie, cheat, and cut corners if it saves time and money as they do not have the same Western sense of responsibility and empathy that Westerners do.

Of course the first people to find that out will be some poor passengers when the rear pressure bulkhead fails at 30,000 feet and kills the lot of them - it will have magically undergone a twenty hour radiographic "inspection" for corrosion between midnight and dawn in some Chinese MRO years before.

That is the message Professor, it is overall cost of ownership that matters, and if you skimp on quality it will come back and bite you on the backside years later. Of course this doesn't bother bonus driven managers. They will be long gone when the time comes to pay the piper for years of sub standard "cheap" maintenance.

And furthermore people much smarter than you are looking at re-industrialisation - pulling work out of China and Asia This will be the natural effect when the Chinese allow the Yuan to float to its true market value.

To put it another way; Asian maintenance costs will only get more expensive with time. But of course a bonus driven manager with a Five year time horizon doesn't care.

Ticking Timebomb

13th Oct 2011, 18:55

Hang your head in shame ALP for siding with the corporate cashcows. GEOFF DIXON chairman of the Tourism Board and MARTIN FERGUSON tourism minister hand in hand to screw Australian workers.

DISGUSTING !

hangarmba

13th Oct 2011, 20:47

Have a read of the following wiki article on the UK miners strike to realise what you jobs may look like if the unions don't succeed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_miners%27_strike_(1984-1985)

Like the voices of the Simpsons characters who took large pay cuts recently, you should have a good hard look at how you can restructure your activities to make them globally competitive.

Pilots are easily transportable - eventually you will have to accept some form of market rates to keep your jobs. Appreciate that you don't like this but as long as the company continues to provide the same level of training the public is in no danger.

Engineers - Domestic is hard to outsource but maybe the company could partner with a John Holland etc to establish new EBA conditions. At least the majority of these jobs are likely to remain Australian. International, you guys need to have a good hard look at how you remain competitive. Line mtc will always be required but it is hard to mount a good argument for retaining base and heavy in the country. Are engineers overpaid - well if you can buy labour for $50US in Asia per productive hour and you guys are on $120k plus super it is a no-brainer. There are some very good MRO's in the region now - United have a long term 747 contract with AMECO in China which is going well and there are many other examples. You could totally restructure your EBA to take some pay cuts for the guys at the top and not hurt the younger guys at the bottom. Getting paid for licences when the company doesn't even operate the type anymore sounds a little opportunistic.

TWU - catering and bag chucking will always be done in this country so there is no argument about going offshore. This union know they are onto a good thing compared to market rates and are trying to milk it for all its worth. Like always, if the company doesn't pay enough, it will suffer from high turnover, absenteeism and low motivation.

The market with some careful legislation to protect core rights is the way to go. Unions have a place but in my view some of them are going too far in an external environment which isn't conducive to thier industry. Hope you don't end up like UK Coal.

SpannerTwister

13th Oct 2011, 20:57

G'Dock for PM !!!

ST

teresa green

13th Oct 2011, 21:11

Calm down fellas's, as a 89er I know only to well what it is like to be pissed on from a great height, but you have it far better than us, with all of the company joining the cause. In fact you blokes are well and truly in the LH seat on this one. We all know this is as much as about saving the company from the grubs that run it, as it is about wages and conditions. We all know that if you don't do something, you are deadset going to end up on JQ wages conditions and contracts which has been the ultimate aim all along. The public, judging by the blogs yesterday, are not so sure this is simply a disgruntled workers dispute, and are having a long hard look at management, with the problems of the 747/400 and the A380 still fresh in their minds, they are not all that sure that the employees don't have a case, nor do they want another Ansett. Unite, stay united, they cannot bring in the military on this one, far to big, yes you will have your scabs, but not enough to run the company. Us 89ers are cheering you on.:D

Shed Dog Tosser

13th Oct 2011, 22:43

yes you will have your scabs

Perhaps these names should be documented for future reference, black list 2011 ?.

blubak

13th Oct 2011, 23:04

Presume all have looked at this website??.
It says the alaea is demanding a $95million hanger be built which is included in the total cost of $165 million for the total eba claim.
Even if the hanger was built at that cost,doesnt it become a QF asset??
So now the claim is $65 million! Still a bit of fat in that figure i would have thought & what about the depreciation costs associated with a hangar ??
Might be cheaper than anyone has considered??

peuce

13th Oct 2011, 23:54

With the political pressure hotting up ... are there alternative ways to push your claims?

Just thinking out loud ....

Is it leagal to "work to rule"
Do you work much "above rule"?
Would working "to rule" have any impact?

K9P

14th Oct 2011, 00:40

About the cost of maintenance in Australia, I worked for over 2 years at a Asian MRO, they brought in some farmers from China, gave them a six week course, and put them to work as sheet metal workers.
They couldn't read any English, had to have their Leading Hand interpret for them (hid them when FAA did an audit) and payed them $6.00/hour.
How do you compete with that!
Also, they used to get the prisoners over to do the cleaning on the aircraft, no safety equipment supplied, they used to work in their thongs (slippers), so imagine how that makes maintenance cheaper, when you don't have to worry about safety.
So, the way I see it is, it doesn't matter how the maintenance gets done, as long as the package is signed off at the end of the check by an "approved" MRO at the right price, those above will share no responsibility if it all ends up badly.

Nassensteins Monster

14th Oct 2011, 01:12

“Pilots have been using PAs to make political statements to our customers.”

The gist of the announcements highlight one major job security clause: Qantas Pilot for a Qantas Flight. It’s what the majority of passengers want.

What do you call standing in front of a press conference, making disingenuous, inaccurate and untruthful statements designed to trigger a response from the politicians? The Tourism Minister gets a flea in his ear from your former boss GD and responds accordingly! Remember, as a CEO of an ASX200 company, your access to politicians for behind-closed-doors dialogue is far greater than any Qantas pilot.

One union leader has gone so far as warning customers not to fly with Qantas before Christmas… try to destroy the business that employs his members.”

He advised that that’s what he’d do. He didn’t warn anybody. It was the responsible thing to do.

We’re trying to destroy the businesss? Quite the opposite in fact. We want to undo some of the poor business decisions that have resulted in the loss of customer work and the revnue it generated; the reduction in flying from poor route, timing and fleet decisions,; aircraft unavailabilities and reduced reliability due to lack of logistics caused by outsourcing… the list goes on!

“Today I regret to announce that go slows and overtime bans by the maintenance engineers are now making it difficult to clear maintenance tasks in a timely fashion. We are seeing a shortfall of (line) maintenance capacity of… 8%”

Go slows? Well, we’re working precisely to ALL the policies and procedures management wrote – even the silly ones we usually ignore. Are you suggesting we should work contrary to company policy and procedure? To do so is a dismissable offence under company policy. If you want to blame us for go slows, look for blame a little closer to home.

Overtime bans? So the only way the company can acquit the 8% shortfall in required maintenance work is with overtime? Does that mean you could really do with 8% more engineers? Why then the stated plans to make 300 out of 1600 maintenance engineers (most of them from line maintenance) redundant before the ink is dry on the enterprise agreement?

You also forgot to mention the 75% cut in logistics, the falling reliability of spare parts due to outsourcing, rework of poor overseas maintenance, and the poor state of infrastructure, tooling and ground equipment.

“This is why we are grounding (the equivalent of) four narrow body 737s and one widebody 767…

Six of our oldest 737-400s and two of our oldest 767s were scheduled to be removed from service this year. These older aircraft chew up more maintenance than the newer aircraft. This is just a rehash of plans already in place, ala Bob Carr and NSW Labor - announce, repackage and re-announce.

“These aircraft are from the Domestic operation… there will be no impact on the International operation.”
I’m confused. Didn’t Domestic make a $440 million profit and International make a $200 million loss? Why are you grounding Domestic aircraft?

I understand why people are wondering why Qantas management can’t just sit down and deal with these unions. Well that’s exactly what we’re doing. We have 15 unions in Qantas and a track record of being positive and flexible in our approach to negotiations… We have always been ready to negotiate a fair agreement… ”

Really? Why did you stonewall for 8 solid months in the ALAEA negotiations? Why did you refuse to meet on the latest occasion that the ALAEA invited the company to talk? Too busy crafting your press statement? Why are we STILL waiting for a full and considered counter-offer from the company, 13 months after negotiations commenced?

“Our pilots and engineers are among the best compensated in the world, with outstanding pay and conditions.”

We’re also some of the best, most experienced pilots and engineers in the world.
Remember, Qantas has been around for 90 years. You have pilots and engineers who have been with the company for 30 and 40 years: the average age of Qantas engineers is 49! That kind of experience deserves adequate recompense. Virgin Australia has only been operating for 10 years.

You are in this situation – particularly among the engineers - because you have failed to employ and train younger engineers. You cannot attract them to Qantas because your competitors pay structure actually pays younger engineers better than Qantas – a pay structure that has evolved over time into an archaic, befuddled and uncompetitive mess. We are negotiating in good faith to try and change that pay structure.

You’d get a lot better value for money from the pilots if you hadn’t almost halved their flying hours. And you’d get a lot more value for money from your engineers if you trained them more and backed them with the logistics, tooling, equipment, policy and procedure we need to get the job done.

“They want the right to control key elements of how we run this company.”

We want Qantas to remain in Australia, employing Australians, paying Australian income and company taxes and therefore supporting Australia, which is what most Australians want.

“Whether it’s the engineers union demanding a veto on the modernistaion of work practices…”

We offered to sensibly negotiate on Maintenance On Demand and you refused, because you were determined to crash or crash it through.

“Qantas is an international business expanding into Asia. Not one single job will go as a result of these plans.”

Really? What about the 1,000 job losses you announced two months ago? You are retiring the aged and fuel-inefficient Qantas mainline fleet and not replacing them. All new A320 and 787 aircraft are going to Jetstar. When Jetstar receive the brand-new 787s, Qantas mainline will get back the worn-out A330s you and your predecessor gifted them. What business sense does it make to either keep or transfer your highest cost aircraft into the part of the company with the highest cost structure?

“Contrary to union statements, 90% of aircraft maintenance is done in Australia.”

Our union is on the record as saying that we agree 90% of aircraft maintenance is done in Australia. However the majority of component and engine maintenance and control over engineering logistics has been outsourced. Some of those outsourcing decisions have been abject failures, resulting in engines not reaching critical performance margins, engines and components with poor time-in-service standards, and parts not being available when and where they are needed. These failures further compound the challenges Qantas International faces while attempting to maintain an aged fleet – a fleet that will not see new aircraft in the foreseeable future. You have announced the biggest aircraft order in Australian history: 110 A320s and A320-neo’s – all of which will be based offshore. Guaranteed all 50 new 787s on order will go to the new Asian based airline. Qantas International will continue to wither on the vine while engineers are expected to do more with less.

“The best way to deliver job security is to deliver a strong and viable business.”

Why the offshoring? Why let Qantas mainline wither on the vine? Why are you trying to circumvent or breach the spirit if not the letter of the Qantas Sale Act?

Make no mistake, we are ready to do fair deals, but they must be reasonable… With the licensed engineers union, we have tried to set up more dates before Fair Work Australia, so our efforts continue. But instead of calling off the destructive industrial campaign to negotiate, these unions are doing what they can to hurt our business and our brand.

The engineers union has offered to provide engineers on overtime to cover the stop work meetings. It has been your decision to allow the stop work meetings to effect the business.

We have been compelled to this action by Qantas’ utter refusal to negotiate towards an agreed outcome. The action is designed to get YOU back to the negotiating table. The engineers union has bent over backwards to accommodate some of the company’s more outlandish claims. We have tried to arrange conciliation and you have knocked back the latest invitation. We have been willing to negotiate on most aspects of our log of claims. Qantas has not even provided a log of claims! How can we negotiate when we don’t know everything that you want, and you’re not willing to either meet or discuss some claims let alone actually negotiate.

Make no mistake, we are fighting for the survival of Qantas. What we are doing is akin to chemotherapy. The patient gets sick but the cancer is killed and the patient eventually recovers. This is not a death threat, just an analogy. We view your “5-year plan” as a cancer, not you or management.

McGoonagall

14th Oct 2011, 05:08

Now being reported on BBC radio news that five Qantas airframes are being grounded and 100 flights a week cancelled due to striking engineers.

:ugh:

aveng

14th Oct 2011, 05:51

Victor Two,

I don't see any profession there where a person would have been required to pass the 120 exams I have sat, nearly all with a 75% pass mark. Correct me if I am wrong, spare the insults.

Well said Fedsec.
Funny thing is, my brother in law has a BSc and a MBA and he once equated my training to approximate a 7 year degree - purely on hours alone. His figures not mine. BTW his degree sits proudly in the toilet - true. :ok:

aveng

14th Oct 2011, 06:03

What exactly does the hefty premium paid to QF engineering staff get QF that staff from other carriers or maintenance organizations cant provide for less?

This what we are up against - another know f@#$-all bystander.

Fact - Qf engineers actually earn less than their VB counterparts. Even JQ engineers earn more than like licenced QF engineers. Professor of bullsh!t.
:ugh:

nitpicker330

14th Oct 2011, 07:13

Whilst I support you 100% I must say I'm a bit tired of reading about the sub standard maintenance in China ( Hong Kong ) If you are correct then one should never fly CX or KA :=

Shed Dog Tosser

14th Oct 2011, 07:52

Nitpicker,

CX and KA have their own maintenance. You are talking about third party providers, not CX or KA.

Taco Muncher

14th Oct 2011, 08:39

Not sure about the 737's. But the grounded 767 would most probably be rolling regos of 767 short on hours before their A-checks must be completed. Just like the last 3 or 4 in Base.

Taco

nitpicker330

14th Oct 2011, 09:43

Ah no, take a look the Hangar near the 07R threshold, it's owned by HAECO. Yes they do CX, KA and a whole lot of other third party work including QF.

HAECO do most of CX and KA hangar and line maintenace.

Mr Leslie Chow

14th Oct 2011, 10:17

Nassenstein,

Well written. If only there was a way you could get the stupid media onto this, rather than the rubbish the other side spins.

One question I have is why the heck aren't the unions collectively using social media more to push the cause?

I hope there is a percentage of the public wise enough to know that employees are not trying to destroy QF and that the actions of late are because they see serious rot at the top.

Keg

14th Oct 2011, 10:21

So QF aircraft are on the same line as CX aircraft? With the same LAME/ AME ratio? With the same level of experience on QFs aircraft as QF engineers?

Turbine Overheat

14th Oct 2011, 10:21

However there are very strong business links between Cx ka and haeco

nitpicker330

14th Oct 2011, 11:39

If QF don't pay for the same Engineer supervision.............more fool them I guess.

Sunfish basically said in post 111 that Chinese Engineers will not bother to follow the Airbus/Boeing operational manuals and therefore cannot maintain properly!! What rubbish!!

All I know is CX a/c aren't falling out of the sky.

Oh, and why do the HAECO Engineers/Lames need to have experience on Qantas Aircraft? Are they different to the normal Boeings/Airbus the rest of us use?? I think not.

Like I said above I support AIPA ALAEA 100% in your fight with off shoring but for goodness sake do you really need to degrade others to make your point??

1a sound asleep

14th Oct 2011, 12:17

Do you support the Qantas strikers?

No - it's just union bullying
64.46% (758 votes)

Not if I'm delayed or charged more
9.78% (115 votes)

Yes - our safety is most important
17.94% (211 votes)

Read more: Julia Gillard threatens to step into Qantas industrial dispute | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/travellers-warned-as-customs-strikes/story-e6frfq80-1226166307269#ixzz1al4BbwUM)

ALAEA Fed Sec

14th Oct 2011, 12:26

The article is so one sided it is a joke. Not one comment from a union person explaining the reasons for what we are doing. It's like going to the AFL grand final and asking the punters whether they prefer AFL or tennis.

Worrals in the wilds

14th Oct 2011, 12:28

That's not a really big sample size, and it's also skewed by being purely from people who respond to news websites selecting one of three specific options. It's a bit like the stuff you see on newspaper online comment sections (on all sorts of contentious issues, not just this one) which tend to be a bit of a scary mix of would-be dictators, banjo players, rabid communists and people who can't spell 'the'. :eek:

Unlike us of course. We're the :cool: people. :}

1a sound asleep

14th Oct 2011, 12:38

Its just not good PR for the cause. The ramblings from Canberra are scaringly like the premeditated moves from yet another labour government some 21 years ago.

Redstone

14th Oct 2011, 12:42

Good ol' push polling, the neo-conservatives tool of choice.

Worrals in the wilds

14th Oct 2011, 12:51

The ramblings from Canberra are scaringly like the premeditated moves from yet another labour government some 21 years ago.
True. At least they were openly right wing Labor unlike these idiots who are supposed to be Left. Left in the wilderness is about what they'll be come election time, but maybe they've already figured out that no-one's going to vote for them so a few business chums won't go astray. :yuk:

I wonder how much sway opinion polls have on undecided readers, and how indicative they actually are of public opinion. It's really hard to tell whether they have an impact like the cyber equivalent of talk-back radio, or whether people just ignore them as white noise.

ALAEA Fed Sec

14th Oct 2011, 12:55

The mob is fickle.

Worrals in the wilds

14th Oct 2011, 12:59

"Always remember that the crowd that applauds your coronation is the same crowd that will applaud your beheading. People like a show".
Terry Prachett, Going Postal.
Works both ways...:ooh:

TIMA9X

14th Oct 2011, 17:20

Just do it - Gillard tells unions and Qantas to negotiate

THE Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, has weighed in on the Qantas dispute, telling all parties to stop talking about negotiating and start doing it.
Her advice wasn't enough to stop hundreds of licensed aircraft maintenance engineers from walking off the job at Sydney Airport yesterday at 4pm for four hours, affecting 7600 domestic and international passengers and causing Qantas to cancel 17 flights and delay another 32.
The walkout came at a peak travel time, and as passengers headed to New Zealand for the Rugby World Cup.

''Qantas and the relevant unions say they want to negotiate this dispute, well I think they should get on and do it,'' Ms Gillard told ABC Radio yesterday.
Some positive signs emerged as the licensed aircraft maintenance engineers union, after a day of talks in Fair Work Australia in Sydney, decided to call off some of their planned strikes.
A four-hour strike at Qantas Engineering next Tuesday in Adelaide and rolling one-hour strikes around the country had been put on hold until Qantas's annual general meeting on October 28, when the need for them would be re-assessed, the union's federal secretary, Steve Purvinas, told a meeting of 300 members late yesterday. The union's ban on overtime remains.
It did little to appease Qantas.

''While we welcome the temporary postponement of some strike action, nothing the union has said today changes the damage that they have done to Qantas, the maintenance of our fleet and to our passengers,'' a Qantas spokeswoman, Olivia Wirth, said.

Qantas will ground five planes on Monday as maintenance banks up, slicing almost 100 flights a week from schedules.
The engineers' union and Qantas are back in talks on Thursday in Melbourne before Fair Work Australia.
Ms Wirth said the airline preferred to negotiate a fair deal with union, rather than have a third-party intervene.

Asked why the government would step into a dispute between a private, publicly-listed company and its employees, Ms Gillard said industrial relations law has long enabled governments to intervene in major industrial disputes.
''That's been a long-standing feature of workplace relations law; we have a comparable section in the Fair Work Act,'' Ms Gillard said.
The opposition accused the government of talking more than acting. The opposition employment spokesman, Eric Abetz, welcomed Ms Gillard's ''belated intervention'' but said the government needed to get more involved. ''Despite all of Labor's talk over the past 24 hours, we have yet to see any concrete plan from the government," he said. ''If Julia Gillard is going to act, then she should just do it.''
Senator Abetz also raised the spectre of an Ansett-style collapse if unions pushed too hard to the point where it seriously damaged Qantas's bottom line.
A failure by Qantas to genuinely negotiate could lead to greater industrial action from pilots, warned the Australian and International Pilots Association vice president, Richard Woodward.

He said the pilots have resisted challenging rostering arrangements, but that could be the next step.''We'd rather negotiate, but negotiation is the art of compromise, and at the moment we've seen zero compromise from the company.''

Read more: Just do it - Gillard tells unions and Qantas to negotiate (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/just-do-it--gillard-tells-unions-and-qantas-to-negotiate-20111014-1lpaf.html#ixzz1amDV2GCZ)

OW is way over the top with her words in my view... there is just no need for her to say what she said..... Her sharp words of late is damaging the Qantas brand.. It's almost like sour grapes because her fearless leaders got rapped over the knuckles on the same day...

Here,

QANTAS has received a rap over the knuckles for not allowing a motion of no-confidence in the chief executive, Alan Joyce, and the board to be put to shareholders later this month.

But two influential advisers to some of Qantas's largest institutional investors have recommended shareholders vote in favour of the airline's pay card for the senior executives.

The voting advice from CGI Glass Lewis and ISS Governance takes the wind out of the sails of attempts by unions and the Australian Shareholders' Association for investors to vote against the pay packages for Mr Joyce and the rest of his senior management team.

Although CGI has urged a vote in favour of all of the resolutions at Qantas's annual general meeting on October 28, it has taken exception to the company not allowing a motion of no confidence in Mr Joyce, the company's chairman, Leigh Clifford, and the rest of the board to be put to shareholders.

Qantas objected to the motion from a group of more than 100 shareholders to be aired on the basis that it would have ''no operative effect'' under company law. But the proxy adviser said Qantas had not given a good reason for not allowing it to be put to the meeting, adding that ''we do not agree that having 'no operative effect' is adequate justification''.

The chance for shareholders to have proposals raised at annual general meetings was a core right and ''any challenge to or derogation from that right by boards is a serious matter,'' CGI said.

''It is not for the chairman and his co-directors, who are the agents of shareholders, to offer their principals a halfway house to the Australian statutory shareholder right.''

Despite the government threatening to intervene in Qantas's damaging industrial relations dispute, unions are ramping up their action before the company's annual general meeting.

Their attacks on Mr Joyce's pay has been central to their campaign for job security clauses to be inserted into new enterprise agreements. His total pay this year rose from $2.92 million to $5 million, due largely to share-based payments increasing from $964,000 to $2.72 million.
But in urging a vote in favour, CGI said Qantas had aligned executive pay and the company's performance over the past year and Mr Joyce's pay was in line with his peers.

The proxy adviser described the accounting-based reporting of share-based pay for Mr Joyce as ''misleading'' because, while his reported pay was $5 million, ''his actual remuneration'' was just over $3 million. ISS has also urged investors to vote in favour of Qantas's remuneration report partly because it believed the hurdles for long-term incentives for Qantas executives were demanding.

Read more: Advisers knock down Qantas protest vote (http://www.smh.com.au/business/advisers-knock-down-qantas-protest-vote-20111014-1lp3a.html#ixzz1amGKxlu3)

but AJ and LC still get away with it..:ugh:

ohallen

14th Oct 2011, 20:02

And this is why so many supporters have been pushing the PR war as an issue.

Without public sentiment, the politicians don't give a rats (so as to speak). Save for the influence of the Tourism Australia,

The Rat PR war has worked a treat and achieved almost a full hand which is odd given what they were working with, but proves what everyone has been up against from day 1.

DutchRoll

14th Oct 2011, 22:17

....Obvious Low intelligence....

Hmmm. All the signs of Dunning-Kruger.

The market has no interest in how many exams you are required to complete. The market is only interested in examining the cost ....

Uh huh. Well, you won't have a problem going to Thailand to get a brain tumour excised, where they can do it far cheaper than, say, Dr Charlie Teo in Australia can, will you? And you get virtually an overseas holiday included in the price.

gobbledock

14th Oct 2011, 22:50

Hey Julia, it will be fixed without you sticking your nose in.
Maybe you can 'just do it' and fix 23 years of regulatory reform that is still not completed?
Go stick your nose back in the trough and butt out.

ampclamp

14th Oct 2011, 23:58

Dear Julia and Martin, this has been festering for years and now you tell us to negotiate??!! :yuk:

Pull your poorly informed heads in and get the full story before losing the last 2 or 3 votes you had left.:ugh:

blow.n.gasket

15th Oct 2011, 03:04

nitpicker330Sunfish basically said in post 111 that Chinese Engineers will not bother to follow the Airbus/Boeing operational manuals and therefore cannot maintain properly!! What rubbish!!

All I know is CX a/c aren't falling out of the sky.

How long have you been around Nitpicker?
Harken back to the late '90's in Cathay and you would find identical Industrial conditions then as what's happening in Australia with Qantas now. Lo and behold we see Freehills behind both exercises in Union Busting.
So what Sunfish wrote was crap is it?
What about the TAECO B747-400 incident. TAECO? that was Cathy's little "off-shoring" exercise in cost-cutting. 400 gets painted on the mainland at Xiamen on the cheap. Only this from a report " Because of carelessness, lax standards and abysmall quality control, the static ports and the pitot heads were blocked by paint and debris"
Further quotes "But these sorts of engineering problems were avoidable incidents and, in our company, they were becoming more frequent. Like NASA at the time of Challenger and Columbia, it had got to the point in Cathay where there were serious flaws in the safety culture and, like Townsend Thorensen's " Disease of sloppiness" and negligence at the time of the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster, the responsibility for this went up the hierarchy right the way to the top.

As for CX aren't falling out of the sky statement, well what about the A330 CX780 out of Surabaya? Landed CLK 13 April 2010 with a double engine failure.

The problem here is one that can be squarely sheeted home to a Management culture that "talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk."
Sound familiar?

blow.n.gasket

15th Oct 2011, 03:46

Further to my last post a read of the following PPRUNE fragrant harbour blog from archives.
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/50196-union-bust-3-a.html

What Qantas are now doing ,CX tried on a number of years ago.
It's amazing how many names keep popping up when it comes to "Union Busting"
In March 2006 Turnbull joined Australia's Allco Finance Group, a privately owned investment bank based in Sydney, as an executive director.
Also on the Allco board was his old mate Rod Eddington. In late 2006 a group called Airline Partners Australia, consisting of a consotium involving Macquarie bank, Allco and others, made a highly leveraged takeover bid for Qantas. under the terms of the deal three Allco directors, including Eddington and Turnbull, were poised to take seats on the Qantas board. The deal fell through ater a shareholder revolt that resulted in the Qantas chairman, Margret Jackson, not standing for re-election when her term expired. By 2008 Allco was in serious financial trouble and went into administration in November with debts of more than AU$650 million leaving its shareholders cleaned out and, like Ansett seven years earlier, it's employees looking at the dole queue.

Blakewindermere

15th Oct 2011, 05:00

I think line maintenance will be scaled right back and more aircraft grounding are on the way.

Mstr Caution

15th Oct 2011, 06:29

Blakewindemere:

Don't tell me that the Qantas Group's only alternative due reduction of mainline capacity will be to replace those services with Jetstar.

After all. The Qantas Group does have to maintain that 60% line in the sand of domestic traffic & Jetstar is of course an amazing business.

Blakewindermere

15th Oct 2011, 06:37

They have plenty of options, i think the days of a LAME dispatching an aircraft are coming to an end.

Going Nowhere

15th Oct 2011, 07:27

The cynic in me would suggest that forward bookings weren't looking too good and the opportunity arose to cut capacity whilst shifting the blame onto the unions. :hmm:

Arnold E

15th Oct 2011, 07:38

In March 2006 Turnbull joined Australia's Allco Finance Group, a privately owned investment bank based in Sydney, as an executive directorAllco was in serious financial trouble and went into administration in November with debts of more than AU$650 million leaving its shareholders cleaned out and, like Ansett seven years earlier, it's employees looking at the dole queue. Hmmm, how much did that cost Turnbull. :confused::confused:
Nothing I'll bet.:rolleyes:

ohallen

15th Oct 2011, 07:44

Am I dreaming or have the 100 flights a week suddenly become 400 flights been cancelled in today's media. In the small print follows a month.

Someone is spinning the same announcement although there is reference to a QF announcement.

Tomorrow it will be 800 flights (each two months), 1200 flights (a quarter) and so on.

Guess it saves having to think up anything worthwhile to say or actually get down to negotiating.

Goodness save us yet again.

amos2

15th Oct 2011, 08:04

As we have all discovered in recent years, due to freedom of information laws, there are many people who have gone straight from High School to : Local Council, State Politics, Federal Politics, the ACTU, unions within the ACTU, civil rights groups, tree hugging groups, greenie groups, biosphere groups and sundry other "gravy train" occupations where they bleed the tax payers dry, enjoy an over inflated salary, massive PUBLIC superannuation benefits and usually are married or partners to similar types with different names!?

Is that rorting the system, or is that rorting the system.

Has anyone checked out Olivia?

If not, do so.

I bet you a useless ticket on a Qantas flight that she has never had, what we would all call, a proper job since leaving high school!

And I bet she's also married to another government bludger rorting the system!

By another name!

duderanch

15th Oct 2011, 08:25

Of course Forward bookings have fallen. Who in their right mind would purchase a ticket to London, sit around in a Bangkok transit lounge for 5 hours then hop on a different airline. Now thats strategy.:ugh:

Maybe Qantas should start advertising their product instead of advertising how much it hates its staff. Where is that choir they used to use ? Have they been sold off too.

Angle of Attack

15th Oct 2011, 09:00

They know how to make no news some news hehe, meanwhile on the operational front I have been hearing there are some major spare parts QF needs for a few broken 737's that they do not have anymore because, umm they have wittled down their spare part inventory?? Just like star wars, ignore the Olivia ignore the Joyce, just remember ,.... "Stay on Target!" We can outlive them because they are under pressure from the shareholders, just be patient grasshopper and watch them fall off their branch! :ok:

QF94

15th Oct 2011, 09:32

Just like star wars, ignore the Olivia ignore the Joyce, just remember ,.... "Stay on Target!" We can outlive them because they are under pressure from the shareholders, just be patient grasshopper and watch them fall off their branch!

The staff always outlive the upper management. They only have an opeartional life of about 5-8 years. They milk what they can out of a company and move on. That's how it's done these days. There is no longevity or loyalty from the top to the company. The loyalty goes only as far as the dollar and not a cent further. These same people demand loyalty from the staff to maintain their bonuses.

The last couple of batches of management believe in engaging their staff. They engage them in constant conflict and dispute, hoping to wear them down and hopefully instill fear into them by implying their jobs are less secure.

No matter how much we whinge about OW & AJ, it makes no difference. They will always read from their cue cards and not deviate. This is a quote from JFK "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie - deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth - persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."

If the powers that be get into the media first and constantly repeat their blurbs long enough, someone will eventually believe them. They even believe it themselves.

Or, they could simply just be psychopaths:

"The psychopath is one of the most fascinating and distressing problems of human experience. For the most part, a psychopath never remains attached to anyone or anything. They live a "predatory" lifestyle. They feel little or no regret, and little or no remorse - except when they are caught. They need relationships, but see people as obstacles to overcome and be eliminated. If not, they see people in terms of how they can be used. They use people for stimulation, to build their self-esteem and they invariably value people in terms of their material value (money, property, etc..).

A psychopath can have high verbal intelligence, but they typically lack "emotional intelligence". They can be expert in manipulating others by playing to their emotions. There is a shallow quality to the emotional aspect of their stories (i.e., how they felt, why they felt that way, or how others may have felt and why). The lack of emotional intelligence is the first good sign you may be dealing with a psychopath."

The above was taken from Psychopathic Personality (http://www.oregoncounseling.org/Handouts/PsychopathicPersonality.htm)

nitpicker330

15th Oct 2011, 10:02

I never said HAECO was perfect either, sure they make mistakes but how many lives have been lost as a result of their work worldwide? I, and all of my colleagues in the Harbour are regular users of the Aircraft they maintain and generally speaking they do a good safe dependable job.

Oh, the CX 780 incident was a result of fuel contamination from SUB.

I generally agree with Sunfish, on this occasion I take exception to a small comment he made.

Yes, I've been around a while buddy:ok:

...still single

15th Oct 2011, 10:47

I never said HAECO was perfect either, sure they make mistakes but how many lives have been lost as a result of their work worldwide? I, and all of my colleagues in the Harbour are regular users of the Aircraft they maintain and generally speaking they do a good safe dependable job.

Really?? You're completely okay with a few mistakes as long as they "generally" do a good job?

How many maintenance related engine failures have you had in your career?
I've had only one -in a Cessna 206.

I likes maintenance of the highest standard now, thanks very much.
But, I hope that keeps working for you.

HotDog

15th Oct 2011, 11:04

I'm not taking sides in this argument but venture to say that some of the claims of justification made by the participants are somewhat misinformed and baseless. I have 18,000+ hours operating several models of jet transport aircraft from narrow to wide body long haul plus 2000+ hours of C & T in simulators in my logbook, during my 33 years of aviation career in Asia. All those hours were chalked up in equipment maintained in line and heavy maintenance in Asia. ALEA's assertions that nobody can do it as safely and better than them is I'm afraid to say, a complete red herring! Standing by for incoming!:E

Perspective

15th Oct 2011, 11:35

With all due respect Hot Dog, this has been done to death and is off topic,

Something you won’t see on Sunrise or in print | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/05/18/something-you-wont-see-on-sunrise-or-in-print/#comments)

This might explain the position a bit more,

Cheers.

BrissySparkyCoit

15th Oct 2011, 11:42

Haven't posted here for a while, as pprune seems to have been overrun by trolls and stooges.

I think there is a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why CX and the like are not "Falling out of the sky" whilst using MRO facilities that Mr. Joyce and Clifford (and possibly those that lick their boots) salivate just thinking about.

Airlines such as CX and SIA are regular customers of these facilities. There are lines of maintenance reserved just for them alone. Checks are scheduled in well in advance.

QF is the customer off the street constantly shopping around for the cheapest deal at the last moment. They demand their C checks and D checks done yesterday as cheap as possible.

If I were an MRO, I know which customer I would give the best, most comprehensive service to and I know which customer I would want out the door ASAP. This is just the reality of business.

On another note, the facility I work in was told a few days ago that due to the on going PIA, Jetstar have withdrawn their heavy maintenance from us.

So overnight, they were able to find an alternative provider? Or is it possible that this was planned many, many months ago prior to any PIA? Yet another opportunity to blame unions for the pre-determined and deliberate failings of management?

fixitdude

15th Oct 2011, 11:51

The 737's that have been grounded, are probably the the 4 listed in the HMplan to be sold, the first in two weeks, and the remainder prior to chrissy. TJI, TJO, TJU and TJW, if I remeber correctly. All of which were supposed to be retired over 12 months ago, but due to the GFC they were sent ofshore for HM, and kept on!!;)

Jethro Gibbs

15th Oct 2011, 11:58

Maybe the the QF Lames at Avalon that are still doing OT could fix them.

Redstone

15th Oct 2011, 22:37

Maybe they could, your point being?

Sunfish

15th Oct 2011, 23:14

"Oh what tangled webs we weave when first we practice to deceive....."

Keep up the research and you will eventually catch management out.

nitpicker330

16th Oct 2011, 00:18

Well after nearly 20 years using airframes maintained by HAECO I have not had one single incident/emergency.........All of my close friends in the Harbour can say the same thing.

Runs on the board I'd say.

DJ737

16th Oct 2011, 00:30

In order to cover the reduction in capacity at QF............

Virgin Australia is looking to source extra aircraft from both Air New Zealand and Etihad.

Etihad & NZ 320's on domestic runs, there probably won't be a shortage of volunteer expat EY 320 pilots to do a stint in Australia. :E

Source Julia Gillard threatens to step into Qantas industrial dispute | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/travellers-warned-as-customs-strikes/story-e6frfq80-1226166307269)

Wally Mk2

16th Oct 2011, 01:12

............what is prolly the most disturbing part about all this BS from AJ & his lap dogs in the media etc is that the gen public are believing it all!!!!

I've been spoken to a few times now of late since this whole QF debacle blew up from people who work in a lolly shop for Eg, people who fix cars who run businesses that have nothing to do with aviation, they all know zip about aviation & still think that QF can do no wrong & believe that the unions are just greedy, that's the part that I feel awkward about, trying to tell these people that QF are as shiffy as a sh1t house rat, but they simply don't believe it knowing (to them) that all pilots engineers etc are overpaid!:ugh:
The last thing we need in this industry is the Govt stepping in to lean on the unions but I wouldn't put it past them, they (the Govt) are just as shifty as QF) & are in bed with each other!

Christ this is an ugly time for aviation, put the seat belt signs on guys & hold on tight!!!!!!

Wmk2

international hog driver

16th Oct 2011, 01:32

We know that Coward St is telling porkie pies but how do we disseminate this to the media.

Lets go back in recent history for a minute, April 4 2011

Fleet for sale as Qantas cuts flights (http://www.smh.com.au/business/fleet-for-sale-as-qantas-cuts-flights-20110403-1ct74.html)

Surprise surprise…… only 11 more 738’s delivered from April.

Ok now lets see whats come since then

-VZL 34194 delivered 22/4/11
-VZM 34192 delivered 14/5/11
-VZO 34191 delivered 9/7/11
-VZP 39362 delivered 23/7/11
-VZR 34193 delivered 31/8/11
-VZS 39358 delivered 15/9/11

Since the announcement…..

-VZT 34186 delivered 15/10/11

Next that are due in the next couple months.

-VZU 34187
-VUV 34189

So we are parking 4 737-400 and have a planned (or actual) delivery of 3 737-800

And that leaves 2 more to be delivered in 2011 as per the smh article that was obviously produced from QF PR.

So what is it Alan? We are parking planes that were scheduled to be replaced anyway….

Ohhh those bad engineers that are forcing us to do this……… (thanks Oliva)

This is all open source information, all it takes is a little investigation…. But the media don’t do that anymore.

I am sure SP or someone else will know how to get this truth into the right hands.

ANCDU

16th Oct 2011, 02:25

Are the unions starting to play into AJ's hands? Just playing devils advocate but the total lack of wishing to consult properly with the unions astounds me, he is obviously doing this for the bigger picture.

The so-called grounding of aircraft (a farce) and reduction in flights (i bet they announce more even though "strike" action has stopped) has seen a increase in seat price and transfer of buisiness to other carriers, one of these being Virgin, but the worrying one is Jetstar. I can just hear Joyce when announcing the half yearly results how yield and load factor at Jetstar has increased to surpass that of Qantas domestic. Suddenly Qantas domestic isn't returning its cost of capital and he has the same argument as used with International and starts to reduce the domestic fleet while expanding Jetstar. Domestic loses everything except the capitals, while Jetstar expands with a new premium class to counter Virgin. Qantas dies a sad and slow death. The public are disgusted...but its too late, and the bonuses have been paid.

The unions need to be very careful where this dispute leads, I am starting to get the feeling that this is exactly what management want, I hope I am wrong.

HotDog

16th Oct 2011, 02:38

Strange how the threat of Government action resulted in cessation of planned ALEA escalation till 28th of October. I'm grateful, as I plan to travel overseas on the 20th. :ok:

breakfastburrito

16th Oct 2011, 02:55

Suddenly Qantas domestic isn't returning its cost of capital and he has the same argument as used with International and starts to reduce the domestic fleet while expanding Jetstar.

That has been my working thesis for quite some time. This is an asset strip - transfer all the crown jewels to Jetstar, sell it off to those "in the know", and throw the QF carcass to some other sucker ( Joe Public as an IPO post APA, now it looks like being the government). So it is no surprise to see calls to (drum roll please) Nationalise Qantas International! (http://www.smh.com.au/business/nationalise-qantas-international-20111014-1lo1o.html).

From the article:What does Qantas need to do to compete against these airlines? If the Australian government is not willing or able to provide support, they should split out the international business and sell it to the government.
Under government ownership, the new international business will "internalise" the considerable benefits associated with inbound tourism.

Read more: Nationalise Qantas International! (http://www.smh.com.au/business/nationalise-qantas-international-20111014-1lo1o.html#ixzz1auSOOrNT)

Will the shareholders will wake up after the event and realise that they have just been ripped off blind by the (former & current) management? It would seem that the custodians of their money might just be in on the game too. The 1% looking after themselves, screwing everyone else.

Mr Leslie Chow

16th Oct 2011, 04:41

As Capt Woodward has said AJ has not once stated his intent or willingness to resolve this, which leads me to think this is a ploy to other things.

The simple facts that:

A: staff have been treated like the enemy not only in the media (I refuse to call them journalists) but also in everyday operations for several years by QF management. Naturally there are always some disgruntled employees for one reason or another but the overwhelming percentage of any company's staff are there to work hard and succeed. When will QF ever see their people as their greatest asset? And,

B: this is a battle to the end that will not end well for any side. History will judge QF management as a way NOT to 'engage' their workforce into new paths.

The beatings will continue until morale improves.....

600ft-lb

16th Oct 2011, 05:11

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1892/martinferguson1.jpg
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4573/martinferguson2.jpg
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/4076/martinferguson3.jpg
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/4733/martinferguson4.jpg
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/5769/martinferguson5.jpg

Keg

16th Oct 2011, 05:29

Interesting reading 6000ft-lb. I hope you don't mind but I borrowed them for Qrewroom so that QF drivers are aware of Mr Ferguson's previous experiences with Qantas service.

600ft-lb

16th Oct 2011, 05:36

It's all public domain taken from
http://www.openaustralia.org/regmem/scan/register_interests_10218.pdf
Be nice to get an updated list too - may prove interesting.

peuce

16th Oct 2011, 05:43

To add credence to ANCDU's feelings:

On Friday, Prime Minister Julia Gillard warned all parties that the government may take action to prevent further strikes if a resolution is not reached.

However, Mr Joyce said he would prefer to deal with the unions directly.

"We've not been calling on the government to intervene," he said.

**** ... we don't want the dopey Government fixing this ... we've got plans

No quick end to Qantas disruption - Joyce | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/no-quick-end-to-qantas-disruption-joyce/story-e6frfq80-1226167789895)

P.S. Just some more thinking .....

Would it not be worth considering calling the Government's bluff ... and asking them to arbitrate a compromise solution ... ensuring that it was made clear that any solution that didn't include protection of QANTAS, and it's employees, from overseas pillaging and plundering ... would reflect disastrously on their electoral image.

Put the ball in their court. See how Australian or Un-Australian they really are.

muffman

16th Oct 2011, 06:16

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Qantas pilots, baggage handlers, catering staff and engineers went on a two hour stop work strike last week.

No quick end to Qantas disruption - Joyce | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/no-quick-end-to-qantas-disruption-joyce/story-e6frfq80-1226167789895#ixzz1avGuoIlF)

Worrals in the wilds

16th Oct 2011, 06:41

Don't forget Qantas Customs and Qantas Quarantine (who are co-incidentally taking PIA as well), which has appeared in a few articles :hmm:

skybed

16th Oct 2011, 06:49

I did not know that QF runs the governments departments as well:ugh::ugh:

Big M

16th Oct 2011, 10:20

And for another side to what 600ft-lb said, check the following which was forwarded to me today - not sure which business/company it comes from but feel free to guess.

http://i795.photobucket.com/albums/yy231/DixonErase/SuckUp_page1_image1.jpg

amos2

16th Oct 2011, 10:32

Hey! Hot Dog...this deal is not about you and your travel plans, mate!!

Jethro Gibbs

16th Oct 2011, 10:34

High Value Customer " Meaning " Someone Flying for FREE that we may be able to use in the Future .;)

gobbledock

16th Oct 2011, 10:41

Nice post 600ft-lb, There is your reason for Fergo getting involved !!
Seems to me, and I have said this before, the politicians are scared that their Qantas trough may be taken away from them, hence their getting involved. This, once again, shows that the Pollies are self serving grubs concerned about themselves, not the constituents that pay them. Hang your heads in shame you turds. And don't forget dear taxpayer, a Pollies frequent flyer points (and there are many of those that get racked up on the endless business class flights they only travel on) are kept by the pollies ! Another nice rort.
In fact, does it not seem a little odd that CASA officers get to choose who they fly with, and the majority choose QF because again, they get to keep the frequent flyer points as well. But hey, no conflict of interest or nepotism there from the regulator who is meant to be unbiased, as they oversight industry in a fair manner???

Yep, the governments only supposed vested interest in the whole QF situation is to save for themselves rorts, perks, treats and any other nicety they can vacumn out of the trough with their snouts.....Pigs.

Jethro Gibbs

16th Oct 2011, 10:55

House of Representatives Standing Committee of Privileges: Members' Interests statements (http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/pmi/declarations.htm)

You will be amazed by the amount of times QANTAS is mentioned just pick a name its a free for all.

Datum

16th Oct 2011, 12:29

Qantas - just had another engine problem out of Bangkok!

QF94

16th Oct 2011, 12:47

Qantas - just had another engine problem out of Bangkok!

That'll be the union's fault and will have to ground another 5 international aircraft because of it.

QF94

16th Oct 2011, 12:53

We know that Coward St is telling porkie pies but how do we disseminate this to the media.

Lets go back in recent history for a minute, April 4 2011

Fleet for sale as Qantas cuts flights (http://www.smh.com.au/business/fleet-for-sale-as-qantas-cuts-flights-20110403-1ct74.html)

Surprise surprise…… only 11 more 738’s delivered from April.

Ok now lets see whats come since then

-VZL 34194 delivered 22/4/11
-VZM 34192 delivered 14/5/11
-VZO 34191 delivered 9/7/11
-VZP 39362 delivered 23/7/11
-VZR 34193 delivered 31/8/11
-VZS 39358 delivered 15/9/11

Since the announcement…..

-VZT 34186 delivered 15/10/11

Next that are due in the next couple months.

-VZU 34187
-VUV 34189

So we are parking 4 737-400 and have a planned (or actual) delivery of 3 737-800

And that leaves 2 more to be delivered in 2011 as per the smh article that was obviously produced from QF PR.

So what is it Alan? We are parking planes that were scheduled to be replaced anyway….

Ohhh those bad engineers that are forcing us to do this……… (thanks Oliva)

This is all open source information, all it takes is a little investigation…. But the media don’t do that anymore.

The link below backs up international hog driver's post. This link is on the QANTAS website.

Fleet Developments (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/fleet-developments/global/en#boeing-737-800)

mcgrath50

16th Oct 2011, 13:33

By contrast check out Nick X's or Bob Brown's declarations over on the Senate's website. Although you may not agree with all the politics peddled by these men what you see is what you get!

Silverado

16th Oct 2011, 14:10

Boeings Orders and Deliveries (http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm?content=userdefinedselection.cfm&pageid=m15527)

Deliveries April 2011 through September 2011
Customer Name Country Region Model Engine Delivery Date

Qantas AUSTRALIA Oceania 737-800 CF 22-Apr-2011
Qantas AUSTRALIA Oceania 737-800 CF 13-May-2011
Qantas AUSTRALIA Oceania 737-800 CF 22-Jun-2011
Qantas AUSTRALIA Oceania 737-800 CF 07-Jul-2011
Qantas AUSTRALIA Oceania 737-800 CF 22-Jul-2011
Qantas AUSTRALIA Oceania 737-800 CF 17-Aug-2011
Qantas AUSTRALIA Oceania 737-800 CF 30-Aug-2011
Qantas AUSTRALIA Oceania 737-800 CF 12-Sep-2011
Total 8

Customer: QAN
Model: 737

737-838 added to Australian civil aircraft register 2011 (http://casa-query.funnelback.com/search/search.cgi?collection=casa_aircraft_register&meta_v_sand=&meta_A=-allresults&meta_o_sand=&meta_m_sand=&meta_X_sand=&meta_r_sand=&meta_q_sand=qantas&meta_xyear_sand=2011&meta_Y_sand=&num_ranks=50&Search=Search&meta_m_phrase_sand=%24%2B%2B%20the%20boeing%20company%20%24% 2B%2B&meta_t_phrase_sand=%24%2B%2B%20737%20%24%2B%2B&clicked_facet=737)

The Professor

17th Oct 2011, 18:36

“Competence. Integrity. Peace of Mind.”

Traits only found at QF? Are you sure?

“You should be aware that the labour force used in some Asian businesses is Three times the size of an equivalent Australian workforce, which negates the cost advantage.”

I am aware of this. I am also aware that in some locations in Asia and South America, the labor force is greater than 3 times the size and yet still represents a considerable savings to the business.

“The chances of the Chinese diligently and reliably following the exact tenets of an Airbus or Boeing maintenance manual are non existent.”

Really? Then please don’t step onboard CX,SQ,MH,TG,EK,KA,LH,UA,CO aircraft then.

“Of course the first people to find that out will be some poor passengers when the rear pressure bulkhead fails at 30,000 feet and kills the lot of them.”

Interesting example. The last time this occurred as far as I know was when TWO SWA 737’s ripped apart in flight resulting in huge fines for the airline as a result of cutting corners in maintenance. Are you prepared to level your “diligence and reliability” accusation at the Americans too? Or is it just reserved for folk that don’t look like we do?

“pulling work out of China and Asia”

Perhaps you could provide an example of where industry is migrating production back to a high cost western country or where an airline is relocating maintenance away from Asia and back to the west?

“They couldn't read any English, had to have their Leading Hand interpret for them (hid them when FAA did an audit) and payed them $6.00/hour.
How do you compete with that!”

You don’t.

“Fact - Qf engineers actually earn less than their VB counterparts. Even JQ engineers earn more than like licenced QF engineers. Professor of bullsh!t.”

The cost of engineering to the QF business is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than ANY other airline business in Australia.

Sunfish

17th Oct 2011, 19:55

To answer your comments.

- On the subject of Chinese diligence, reliability, trustworthiness, etc.

For starters CX, SQ, MH etc. are Asian Airlines and being Asian they know about Asian Culture and most especially they know how to supervise to ensure that they get what they pay for.

Qantas is not Asian and it lacks the skills and capability to ensure that it gets value for money in an Asian setting. You need skill sets, relationship building skills, etc. etc. which are expensive to acquire. You do not just turn up at the door and say hey! Fix this!

The Chinese have many virtues, frugality, hard work and so on. The quality of their workmanship in the textiles we once imported was better than the Japanese or Swiss. However the Chinese, like Westerners have their own set of failings (yes, including sounding like pompous prick at times), and one of them is to cut corners to save money when they think no one is watching or no one will care. They also don't have a sense of corporate responsibility like the Japanese, there is little loyalty outside the immediate family. This is how we got the melamine in baby formula scandal.

Even if you understand all that and know how to compensate for it, you have to get up very early in the morning to obtain value in Asia - it is a graveyard of Western companies that didn't take the time and trouble to do their homework.

To put that another way, where are the Asian Board members? How many mandarin speaking managers does Qantas have? How many years have they planned this great leap forward? You should have been planning this for Ten years or more and building the necessary relationships for at least that long. You do not get up one morning and say Hey! Lets do business in Asia!

Regarding "re-industrialisation" that is what analysts are already talking about in private forums that I occasionally frequent. It will be brought about by the financial chaos that is shortly to engulf the world as well as high levels of unemployment. This is also why there is pressure on China to allow the Yuan to float. The pressure for it to start happening will build until it is irresistible around 2014.

As for catastrophic structural failure I was thinking of JAL 123.

Worrals in the wilds

17th Oct 2011, 23:00

...as well as high levels of unemployment.So, have the men who would be kings finally worked out that offshoring everything means there are no jobs for the plebs at home, and bored, out of work plebs misbehave and cause trouble, a la Britain? About bloody time, too. Maybe one of them could tell Dick Smith. :zzz:

Interesting stuff about doing business in Asia.

The cost of engineering to the QF business is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than ANY other airline business in Australia. They have a bigger and much more varied fleet than any other airline business in Australia. Also, some of their aircraft are so old they've got pension cards and presumably need more work to keep them operational. A big part of the LCC ethos is having a simple fleet of new, leased aircraft so you don't have to spend up big on maintenance. They've done exactly this with Onestar and left Qantas with the dreggy old 767s, 737-400s and 747s, so no wonder they have to spend a heap on fixing them. It seems to be like running a taxi company with a fleet of VT Commodores; feasible, but you'll need a heck of a lot of mechanics and spare parts.

C441

18th Oct 2011, 00:48

Again Sunfish is on the money.
You should have been planning this for Ten years or more and building the necessary relationships for at least that long. You do not get up one morning and say Hey! Lets do business in Asia!

Similarly, when developing an Asian business it is less than prudent to be quoted suggesting that you will exploit the opportunities arising in the Asian market or remarking how much Australia will benefit when the inevitable profits are repatriated back to Australia.

fatmike

18th Oct 2011, 01:15

When are you people going to wake up. Qantas is no longer owned by the Australian public. Hasn't been for 19 years. It is now a company listed on the ASX and is owned by the shareholders. The shareholders determine what is happening with Qantas. If any of you who are long on the words regarding what Qantas is or is not doing, then your entitlement to determine whether that is the correct or incorrect path is determined by the ratio of the shares that you own to the total number of Qantas shares listed.
Insomniacs like Sunfish, Worrals, & TIMA9X and others who have regular sleep patterns and are regular contributors to the destiny of Qantas argument, why all the noise re Qantas and yet you are silent re Bluescope, Pacific Brands, Rio Alcan and many other companies doing the same or similar thing ie they are managing their company to keep it profitable. Unfortunately sometimes that means changing the way things are which in turn is not popular with the incumbent workers.

hotnhigh

18th Oct 2011, 01:21

Qantas is no longer owned by the Australian public. Hasn't been for 19 years.

Always good to look back and learn from history. Hey fat mike, what was the intent of the sales act again?

hotnhigh

18th Oct 2011, 01:22

Qantas is no longer owned by the Australian public. Hasn't been for 19 years.

Always good to look back and learn from history. Hey fat mike, what was the intent of the sales act again? Did Bluescope or pacific brands have a sales act as well? If so, please explain.

Handbrake

18th Oct 2011, 01:27

Hey fatmike, why don't you check out the mass losses in Pac Brand since off-shoring. It's not pretty.

fatmike

18th Oct 2011, 01:36

Hey fat mike, what was the intent of the sales act again?
I reckon one could be pretty certain that Qantas is working with the bounds of the Qantas Sale Act however that is not the same as working within the bounds of what some people think what the Qantas Sale Act means or should mean.

losses in Pac Brand since off-shoring
Didn't say that they were good decisions or that they were effective decisions, I was merely pointing out the fact that a whole lot of posters who don't appear to be Qantas employees or even shareholders have a lot to say but are silent re the other companies. That's all my point is.

Worrals in the wilds

18th Oct 2011, 01:39

Insomniacs like Sunfish, Worrals, & TIMA9X and others who have regular sleep patterns and are regular contributors to the destiny of Qantas argument, why all the noise re Qantas and yet you are silent re Bluescope, Pacific Brands, Rio Alcan and many other companies...I have been critical of Pacific Brands before. As for the others; I work in aviation. I am interested in aviation. I enjoy talking about aviation in real life and posting about aviation on an aviation bulletin board. Mining is beyond both my interest and expertise. No doubt there are countless bulletin boards where people talk about railways, mines, manufacturing and all sorts of other industries facing similar issues. If I was interested in those things, that's where I'd go.

I'm entitled to an opinion and as long as it's not defamatory (and the mods approve) I'm entitled to post it. If you don't like it... you're entitled not to read it. :)

DutchRoll

18th Oct 2011, 02:08

I'm both a Qantas employee (with the long-service badge to prove it) and a Qantas shareholder.

Many of those commenters you mention are accurately reflecting the views of many employees and shareholders.

The exception is the very large corporate shareholders, who quite frankly couldn't give a toss about any direction at all as long as Qantas makes them money, or promises to make them money even when it's not actually doing so. It's like the stockbroker who recently caused a storm in the UK when interviewed on the BBC. He loves meltdowns and recessions in which people lose their homes and entire life savings, because he can make money out of it. The carnage and misery leftover doesn't bother him in the slightest, as long as his money is in the bank. He then moves onto the next project.

Big institutional investors loved HIH. They adored WorldCom and hero-worshipped the directors of Enron. Right up to the very last second where they lost everything.

The list goes on and on. That's what modern-day business reality has become, fatmike. I occasionally wonder what goes on inside the heads of big institutional investors, if it's anything decipherable at all.

Millet Fanger

18th Oct 2011, 02:11

The shareholders determine what is happening with Qantas.fatmike, I think you have been proved wrong again. The shareholders met the legal requirement to get a no-confidence motion included with the AGM papers. The board vetoed it - against the expressed wishes of shareholders.

Shareholders are a nuisance, interfering with how the board run the thiefdom.

wpax

18th Oct 2011, 03:03

About Qantas - Media Room - Media Releases (http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn/au/publicaffairs/details?ArticleID=2011/oct11/5210)

fatmike

18th Oct 2011, 03:06

The shareholders met the legal requirement to get a no-confidence motion included with the AGM papers. The board vetoed it - against the expressed wishes of shareholders.

I'm sure that if Qantas has acted illegally someone somewhere will take the appropriate legal action. There are too many haters out there not to occur.

I'm entitled to an opinion
Worrals, I never said you weren't entitled to express an opinion. I said that you may not be entitled to dictate what occurs, unlike Dutch Roll who is. Dutchy, did you outlay your own money for those shares or are they the ones given to you by Qantas?

breakfastburrito

18th Oct 2011, 03:51

QANTAS TO GROUND MORE AIRCRAFT DUE TO UNION ACTION
SYDNEY, 18 October 2011:

Qantas will ground a further two wide-body Boeing 767 aircraft on Monday as ongoing industrial action from the Australian Licenced Engineers Association (ALAEA) continues to cause a backlog of maintenance on the Qantas fleet.

The grounding of these two aircraft will see a further 80 domestic flights cancelled over the next month, and the removal of approximately 20,000 seats of capacity. This will mainly impact flights between the eastern states and Perth.

As a direct result of the ongoing ALAEA ban on overtime and work to rule, Qantas has now been forced to ground seven aircraft, cancel around 500 flights and remove approximately 88,000 seats from sale over the next month.

In addition, since union strike action began less than two months ago by the ALAEA and the Transport Workers’ Union more than 60,000 passengers have been directly impacted, with 129 flights cancelled and 321 flights delayed or brought forward.

Qantas Chief Executive Officer Alan Joyce said the ALAEA was continuing a ban on overtime work which had been in place since September as well as a work to rule, which has caused the backlog of maintenance.

“The ongoing action from the licensed aircraft maintenance engineers’ union means we do not have the manpower to fulfil all of the necessary maintenance on our fleet of aircraft,” Mr Joyce said.

“The industrial action has caused a shortfall of more than 60,000 man hours of maintenance and this is increasing on a daily basis, forcing us to ground aircraft.

“If this overtime ban continues, we will be grounding even more aircraft. This is not a safety concern as problems are addressed before planes fly. But it is causing ongoing and unplanned disruption to our customers.

“This is impacting our passengers’ holiday and business travel plans and it is impacting on the tourism industry.”

In addition to the grounding of these two Boeing 767s, Qantas has already grounded four Boeing 737s and a Boeing 767.

The ALAEA has provided Qantas with written notification that it will keep the ban on overtime and the ‘go-slow’ in place until Christmas.
On time performance has slipped from 87 per cent five weeks ago to 75 per cent this week.

Mr Joyce said the union’s claims that these aircraft were already going to be grounded are incorrect and was an attempt to divert attention away from the significant damage the union was doing to Qantas and its passengers.

“These aircraft are flying this week and from Monday they won’t be. When we clear the backlog of maintenance then the aircraft will be put back into service. It’s as simple as that,” he said.

“The union is still demanding significant pay increases and guarantees that old work practices remain in place despite new generation aircraft requiring less maintenance, less often.

"The union is still demanding that Qantas hands over control of parts of the business to union leaders.

Until the union drops its unreasonable demands we are not going to get any closer to an agreement.

“We are committed to reaching a negotiated outcome with the three unions we are in a dispute with.

We are meeting with the Transport Workers’ Union today, the ALAEA on Thursday and the pilots’ union on 28 October.”

The total cost of the ALAEA’s claim is $165 million - plus $95 million to build a new hangar. Details of the EBA claim from the ALAEA include:

Around 15 per cent increase in wages and allowances over three years. The remuneration package of the average licensed engineer would be around $170,000 in January 2013 if we agreed to the ALAEA’s claim.

A guarantee that no changes be made to current work practices including changes which improve productivity or that are in line with developments in modern aircraft technology.

Introduction of a time serving classification structure where workers receive additional pay increases based on years of service rather than merit or qualifications.

Issued by Qantas Corporate Communication (Q5210)
Media Enquiries:
Luke Enright M: 0428 527 960

Source:ASX (http://www.asx.com.au/asx/statistics/displayAnnouncement.do?display=pdf&idsId=01229602)

piston broke again

18th Oct 2011, 03:55

Share price $1.46. Joyce is insistent on delivering bad news. I smell a rat...a takeover rat!

Millet Fanger

18th Oct 2011, 03:57

I'm sure that if Qantas has acted illegally someone somewhere will take the appropriate legal action.fatmike, you show either QF management training or potential - do what we like, we have enough money and legal firepower in our pockets to bury anyone silly enough to stick their heads up!

I just can't understand why people are questioning the relevance of Qantas' tag - The Spirit of Australia.

crosscutter

18th Oct 2011, 04:07

Can someone tell me why the reduced flying lines are not being applied to the loss making 747 routes?

Capt_SNAFU

18th Oct 2011, 05:38

Perhaps someone should ask why working to rule should cause maintenance problems? I don't understand why an employer should complain if their employees work to the rules set out in their agreements?

Worrals in the wilds

18th Oct 2011, 06:02

Maybe it's like Airservices Australia, who break out in a rash of TIBAs every time there's an overtime ban, ie overtime is a fundamental part of their rostering system. Is that the case in Qantas maintenance as well?

I said that you may not be entitled to dictate what occurs
I'd be very surprised if anything I do, say or publish makes an ounce of difference to what occurs at Qantas or any other airline, so I suspect that's highly unlikely.

FCMC

18th Oct 2011, 06:18

Can someone please help me because im not very bright!

QF are grounding A/C (that are for sale anyway) because Engineers wont
work on a there days off. So effectively the fleet will be grounded because Engineers are spending time with there family's!

Engineers are working to Policy/rules which are the Policies Management designed and endorsed. If Engineers dont follow the policy it is a dismissable offence.

Engines fail at an unacceptable rate because of Management Policies to Outsource Engines.

Do I keep going?
Am I missing something?:ugh:

Roger that.

18th Oct 2011, 06:53

What I'd like to know is: If AJ just will not move on job security, that must mean there must be more coming......So what is it? What is his big picture, his plan, his vision for QF 3 years from now?

breakfastburrito

18th Oct 2011, 07:12

So what is it? What is his big picture, his plan, his vision for QF 3 years from now?
I don't about 3 years, but by 2020 Bruce wants to have up to 400 aircraft (20% of the LCC intra-Asia market) in in a series of & airlines/"franchises" throughout Asia (public information, google the quote), probably as minority owner/operator. This will mean, at best a token service of QF to UK/USA as a gesture toward the QF Sale Act.

Domestically, not sure of the "vision thing", there haven't been enough public gaffes... yet. Be sure of once the international division is dealt with, we will be hearing a lot more about domestic return on capital and a majestic (Asian) orange sunrise.

Third party leasing & contracting is the space to watch.

Ngineer

18th Oct 2011, 07:23

Perhaps someone should ask why working to rule should cause maintenance problems? I don't understand why an employer should complain if their employees work to the rules set out in their agreements?

Can someone tell me why the reduced flying lines are not being applied to the loss making 747 routes?

The more they complain, the more chance they can get some-one to step in and end it. To me it seems a ploy to avoid having to bargain a fair outcome.

What I'd like to know is: If AJ just will not move on job security, that must mean there must be more coming......So what is it? What is his big picture, his plan, his vision for QF 3 years from now?

I don't think it's a good one for the Aussie worker.

gobbledock

18th Oct 2011, 10:07

All the best plans in the world can be obliterated overnight by just one great big smoking hole.

flying-spike

18th Oct 2011, 11:11

Air France-KLM chief facing sack (http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbusiness/aap/8361027/air-france-klm-chief-facing-sack)

He even looks like AJ, (probably got better teeth though)

POT100

18th Oct 2011, 12:13

1. Since when are we asking for 15% over 3 years and since when does the average engineer earn 170K??

2. I don't remember the Union putting a claim for a $95million hanger for the benefit of its LAMEs..

3. I don't know any LAMEs who refuse to change our current work practices.There's no question they're years out of date compared to all the other main airlines.You also have to bear in mind that these outdated practices were put in by previous management.

4. Years of service for pay increases-gotta agree with that one..Currently The only way to progress is through type training..Unfortunately,under the QE grand scheme of things,this opportunity is reserved for the brown nosers and golf buddies and has got absolutely f*ck all to do with merit.
A cancer in engineering which is spreading and needs to be cut out along with those Maint Supervisors and Ops Manager positions!!..What a waste of money!!!!

These claims by AJ are laughable but the public are buying it..Almost everyday I'm asked by friends whats going on?..They have a totally different idea and I constantly find myself refutting them..

C'mon Fed Sec lets have a press conference to refute this daily bullsh*t that we have to listen too..

fatmike

18th Oct 2011, 23:01

If one follows the theme that Qantas only grounded the older B737s which were on the market as a publicity stunt, can someone offer a rational explanation why, on my count by comparing timetables, there have been on a per week basis 5 SYDADLSYD, 5 BNEMELBNE, 16 SYDBNESYD, 21 SYDMELSYD, 1 SYDPERSYD flights cancelled because they were selling the older aircraft anyway. On the other hand if an airline was having trouble getting enough manhours out of its engineers for whatever reason, wouldn't it make sense to take the older aircraft which by definition require more servicing out of service first? Just my thoughts.

Tankengine

18th Oct 2011, 23:17

Is it smart to have OVERTIME / or lack of it, so affecting aircraft availability??:confused:

So many aircraft are being grounded due lack of overtime for normal maintenance that perhaps management are to blame for not employing a couple of dozen [hundred] more engineers!:hmm:

Cactusjack

19th Oct 2011, 08:45

Air France-KLM chief facing sack (http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbusiness/aap/8361027/air-france-klm-chief-facing-sack)
He even looks like AJ, (probably got better teeth though)

I disagree, AJ looks much older! Perhaps the uprising was due to him cutting costs and no longer using Danish Butter within catering?

hadagutfull

19th Oct 2011, 09:35

I must be missing something ...
AJ complaining we are refusing to do overtime and jumping up and down because we are working to rule.. ? Calling it a go slow??

Well, I'm my work area , overtime has been pretty well wiped off the map for the last 2 or 3 years...
As for working to rule.... MR JOYCE, if u will put in writing that u want us to disregard the qantas system of maintenance approved by CASA, and the policy and procedures manuals That your management team have put in place , and the qantas minor MAINT manuals etc etc... And be solely responsible for any accident or injury that occurs.... Then I'll consider it.
Until then, we are playing by the rules. The same rules your team insist are being followed at the world class MRO's that now do some of our heavy checks .
As for your media stunts.. Hahaha nice try.

We all know what management want to do to OUR company.
U might have the media in your pocket, but we got word of mouth.. And that goes a lot further than ur ****ty media.

As for your plans to Asianise the airline... Can we see the detailed studies, the route analysis' , and coatings for all these plans?
I'm sure u had several plans to chose from. But I know of no operational staff who were consulted or invited to contribute to this grand plan.

As for your little orange cancer... Go talk to the public about their experiences.. There is even a website dedicated to how pathetic it is. !!

Well, I'll let u get back to your chairmanship lounge to complain how bad we all are.. I'm sure all the crooked businessmen and pOliticians are lining up to support u , waiting for their free qantas sponsored trips to sporting events or upgrades on their next overseas trip... ( probably bumping someone on a 30 year long service trip back to economy )

Cheers mate!!