Qantas-October 28th

[hotnhigh]

As Qantas management continue to blame everyone else except themselves for their predicament, continues to pay massively overblown salaries and accept massive pay rises to the top executives, whilst chastising their employees for dare hoping that they have a future in Australia, it's interesting that Qantas have elected to book a hall that can accommodate less than 1000 for the next agm.
University of New South Wales - Venues and Events - Sir John Clancy Auditorium (http://www.venuesandevents.unsw.edu.au/venues/clancy/clancyindex.html)

The focus over the last few days has been about legally conducted PIA by the unions and the impact to Qantas moving forward. Unfortunately, I believe, this has taken the focus away from the failure of management over the last 10 years and particularly the last 12 months to reinvigorate Qantas and it's employees.

Hard Questions need to be asked. None regarding the current PIA but more to do with the lead up to the current position. Why hasn't qantas answered the questions asked by the ALAEA regarding the position of Jetstar? Why did Qantas provide inadequate responses to AIPA when their forensic accountants wanted a closer look? Why should the redQ or whatever it's called, be leveraging its capital from qantas when that capital is desperately needed to fix the international operational.
So many more questions that the board will be attempting (read desperately) trying to avoid in providing answers. This current stoush provides them with a smokescreen that they will be trying to intensify. The smokescreen provides the cover to enable them to shift more equity off shore and enables the pigs at the trough more opportunity to gouge to the benefit of themselves.

Lets hope the real focus can be magnified upon the board and it's performance, not on the employees who have little hope of any future because they can see the management plan is full of peril.

[ohallen]

HNH agree entirely that all the side shows effectively allow QF to avoid the issues they clearly have no intention of being engaged on and are which have been identified by you.

It also occurs to me there is another information gap in the current public debate. The unions claim QF have failed to engage in meaningful negotiations and QF keep claiming they want the Unions back at the table.

The information that I would like to see is exactly how have each of the parties conducted the negotiations and how have each contributed to trying to achieve a settlement. There is simply no reporting of the process and perhaps that is usual, but these are not usual times.

[hotnhigh]

I've just done a quick search for various figures of competitors, profits and load factors. Alan Joyce has said that the cost of doing business with Australian employees is something like 22% extra. So lets have a look at some other figures,
Profit figures announced March 2011
CX: HK$14.048mill Load Factor 81.1%
EK: $1.6 Billion Load Factor 80%
SQ: $1.092 Billion Load Factor 78.5%
QF: $552 million Load Factor 80.1%

So even with the 22% added cost, the boards performance doesn't match any of its peers. Who said KPI's were a good thing and how does Alan's and the boards package compare with their competitors? I'd bet slightly better than the 22%
Unfortunately, got to go to work now, but will try and get the costings for the various boards as well to see where the true value for money lies.

Cost allocation and shifting is still one of the most important subjects here when we consider the performance of qantas, jetstar and the rest of the group and in particular, when compared to overseas peers.

[unionist1974]

October 28, is this the day that the Lemmings finally follow their "Leaders "over the cliff?

[600ft-lb]

The cost of CEO's and the 'ExCo' is far more then 22% more expensive for Qantas compared to its peers.

[TIMA9X]

It's simple, since AJ took the controls, the profit has been in continual decline, he is a disaster when it comes to sorting out staff engagement issues because he has none of those skills. He is a poor people manager and that's what airlines are all about.

To be fair, AJ did a reasonable job setting up J* but never had to raise capital as it was handed to him on a plate.

Running an airline is like having a baby: fun to conceive, but hell to deliver.
— C. E. Woolman, principal founder Delta Air Lines
and

If the employees come first, then they are happy. A motivated employee treats the customer well. The customer is happy so they keep coming back, which pleases the shareholders. It's not one of the enduring Green mysteries of all time, it is just the way it works.
— Herb Kelleher, Southwest Airlines CEO, in Lee, W. G., 'A Conversation with Herb Kelleher,' Organizational Dynamics, volume 23, issue 2, Autumn 1994.


AJ, the board and their team of industry misfits have no idea about the above quotes. Q management have lost the plot but Australia's docile media press release copiers (journalists) allow it to happen, sadly, as they really don't understand the business they write about. (with the exception of B.Sandilands)

Qantas has chosen to avoid the competitive task on routes to Asia and beyond to Europe with modern efficient wide-bodied jets, and done nothing but whinge about losing market share when it fact is hasn’t offered to fly the new growth routes so ably addressed by Emirates, Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines among others.
Qantas hasn’t had market stolen from it, rather than having given it up and away.


Jetstar type low cost franchises do make a lot of sense as an investment, yet they are not an alternative to keeping or winning the full service market in either Australia or on its longer haul markets. They create new demand, and grow aviation jobs. But they are no reason to abandon quality, especially where the opportunity resides in reputation and service delivery, rather than in the fare price. Ben Sandilands 11.10.11

This is the real message that is not getting through.. then this today

There is a hint of hysteria creeping into the Qantas union disputes today, and maybe it’s time for cold showers all around.
The shrillness set in when licensed engineer’s union Federal Secretary Steve Purvinas kicked an own goal by reportedly urging people to avoid making Christmas holiday bookings on Qantas.
If we are talking domestic holidays that is like saying load up the family car and drive to the Gold Coast (and risk dying on the roads) or take the ferry to Tasmania, which isn’t such a bad idea at all.


The fact is that it is Qantas/Jetstar or the highway, because Virgin Australia has no ambitions nor capacity to suddenly put on more or larger jets, and its load factors are already exceptionally high.


And Tiger is still in a period of self enforced irrelevancy, running a token schedule at token fares where it is possible they are continuing to lose money.
But if we are talking international holidays Qantas is already regarded as useless by most passengers, as it has dealt itself out of contention, and continues to make desperate attempts at rewriting history by claiming this is all the result of wicked government owned predators who have so unfairly invested in better newer jets, and then decided to fly them half a day faster to dozens of cities in Europe that Qantas couldn’t find on an atlas while standing up in a phone booth. Ben Sandilands 12.10.11.
It's become extremely messy and I feel the pilots have been short changed as they have not disrupted anything much other than make PA announcements (which in my view were working) and wear red ties. All this good work has now become entangled in other unions actions and has been tarred with the same brush. I think it is time for those cold showers..

http://smallestuser.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/shower.png

Having said that, the lies coming from the management mouths over the past few months and we all have had to endure them over and over again, sooner or later someone was bound to "kick an own goal" out of shear frustration. Overall, SP has done a great job, he has proved he has his members interests at heart..

PPrune is the converted. It doesn't need more preachers.
If you want coverage: occupy the AGM! Many of you are shareholders after all. You may not have the voting rights, but you can get the board and the CEO on camera under pressure and failing to answer questions. Yep, that's where its at now folks!

[Ka.Boom]

Everyone should buy a small parcel of shares with full voting rights and then ask some searching questions.Negative gear the shares and claim a tax break as well as sticking it to these buffoons.All it takes is $150

[Freehills]

Tony Tyler (CX CEO in 2010) got all in package (housing/ pension/ bonus etc) of 1.5m AUD

Alan Joyce got, what, 2.9m in 2010 and 5.1m in 2011?

So you could have 2-3 CX CEO's for the price of one QF CEO... And HK is more expensive than Sydney.

[ohallen]

Will they swap two for one?

[UPPERLOBE]

Maybe someone should organise a media pass to this AGM and record the way the whole thing will be short sheeted. There is a lot at stake here and the corporate high jinks will be unbelievable.

Can you imagine the way the media will portray anyone who gets heated, any good points raised will be edited out for the 6 o'clock 'gospel' news.

Seems to me that the course has been set, the media is blowing wind into the corporate sails and 90 years of what we all stood for is worth zip.

Today it's all greed and seems to be all about sucking the money out of every opportunity and not thinking about the ongoing viability of the country/state/business/neighbourhood.

Imagine if that was all the founders of any of the great enterprises of this country thought from the get go, these bastards are sucking the life out of years of constructive management and years of people pulling the line and getting Qantas to be recognised the world over.

The dopes who are being sucked into the tried and tested anti union logic being run by the media will also be the first to complain that nothing was done by the unions before Qantas disappeared.

[Take five]

If you can't get to the A.G.M.

If you gave the chairman your proxy vote, he does not have to vote as you have wished.
He can use your vote as he pleases.

Log in to

https://investorcentre.linkmarketservices.com.au/Login.aspx/Login

Go to the vote link.

Get your HIN number from your shares statement

Give your voting rights to someone who is not the chairman of the meeting, and who will look after your interests.

eg Steve Purvinas or someone who will be there on the date.

This vote overrides any previous forms which you may have mailed in.

[whatever6719]

Doing that first thing in the morning! Thanks!!

[gobbledock]

Freehills, the amounts you mention are not the true picture. You are quoting salary. That excludes retention bonuses, OTP bonuses, milestone bonuses, share allocation, consultancy earnings, 'other connected vested interests', generous super, travel and accommodation perks and there is more. It would be therefore rumored thy said person extracted close to 20 mil in the past 12 months from a plethora or methods..

[TIMA9X]

Qantas pilots to let fly in appeal to shareholders (http://www.businessday.com.au/business/qantas-pilots-to-let-fly-in-appeal-to-shareholders-20111012-1ll0b.html)
Qantas pilots to let fly in appeal to shareholders

Ben Schneiders Matt O'sullivan

October 13, 2011

PILOTS will appeal directly to Qantas shareholders to vote down the airline's remuneration report and also vote against the re-election of four directors.
In a new campaign to start today, the Australian and International Pilots Association will
launch a website, qantasshareholders.com, which will tell shareholders how to assign a proxy and vote against key motions at the October 28 annual meeting.
Advertisement: Story continues below
The association's vice-president, Richard Woodward, said the union had received support from the public and disgruntled shareholders and now wanted to harness this.
''We are genuinely trying to get the remuneration package overturned,'' he said. ''Our pilots are incredibly concerned about the fact they've been blamed for the downturn at Qantas while at the same time Alan Joyce and his team have rewarded themselves with outrageous pay rises.''A step in the right direction. :ok:

_Cc-LPCn_Fo

[esreverlluf]

Meanwhile - over at ANZ Bank (a company that does pay a healthy dividend and whose share price is not at an all time low) - there has been an executive pay freeze.

I know little else of ANZ Bank, but this single gesture must surely give both it's employees and shareholders great hope.

QANTAS CEO & board -hang your heads in shame.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[The The]

Give your voting rights to someone who is not the chairman of the meeting, and who will look after your interests.

You can nominate the chairman as proxy and still vote against the resolutions. It is only if you leave your proxy open, that the chairman can direct your votes the way he wants.

If you vote against the resolutions on the proxy form, that's the way your vote is counted, regardless of who you assign the proxy to.

[whatever6719]

Can someone help me re this proxy vote.
Im doing it online at the moment.
When it asks me to "appoint another person to vote on my behalf", it then
gives me a list of names to select, then at the bottom, it has an option to
nominate an alternate proxy holder. Who's name do I put there??
Is there a particular person we need to put up there?

Appreciate your advice!

[1a sound asleep]

AIPA Shareholders (http://www.qantasshareholders.com.au/)

The ballots came out weeks ago and more than half the people have returned them/ too little too late

[C441]

The ballots came out weeks ago and more than half the people have returned them/ too little too late

Not too late at all.

Shareholders have until 11:00am (AEDST) on October 26th to return their ballot paper to the share registry.

Don't think it not worth the effort. It's the message that your vote carries that is important.

[POT100]

"We have reduced Management numbers to save money"..."This management has been responsible for years of profits"...AJ

I must be working for a different airline!!!!!!!

[teresa green]

Reading the drivel on the SMH blog, makes me wonder if you blokes along with the Engineers are going to have to put out a massive explanation on a broadsheet telling the public what is really happening. They really have no idea, blaming the unions, Gillard, the weather, anything but the company. Making PA's is fine, going off the job for a couple of hours is fine to, but really when its all said and done the public still have no idea what is actually happening in Qantas. I still believe the only way to swing this is one massive workout, all the employees, at the same time, to make all and sundry sit up and take notice. No, it will not bring on 89 again, that was pilots only. You are really in the LH seat here if you really want to have a go, and perhaps that is what you will have to do eventually, or as we all know, no Qantas, or just a boutique airline with JQ taking over the mantle of National Carrier. Unthinkable.

[gobbledock]

QF AGM Friday October 28
Top 10 reasons why QF’s management structure requires immediate overhaul at the QF AGM Friday October 28:

1) At the close of trading on the date of the appointment of Leigh Clifford, the Qantas share price was $5.62
2) At the close of trading on the date of the appointment of Alan Joyce the Qantas share price was $3.43
3) The current share price sits at approximately $1.45
4) The company has incurred fines arising from unlawful cartel behavior which incurred fines
(loss of revenue) in the absolute millions, while under the current management structure
5) Management has failed to develop cooperative working relationships with its labor force. Most recently this has led to a situation whereby 3 major groups of employees are engaging in industrial action against the company on several fronts, and agressive statements and actions have been levelled against Unions by management
6) New aircraft have been ordered but not delivered, and instead of using aircraft such as the Boeing 777 which competitors in and out of Australia and internationaly have used with great financial success, the company has illogicaly and unexplainably has adopted preferences which call into question management abilty
7) There have been numerous and inceased engine failures and a number of serious safety incidents under the current management structure
8) Readers Digest's 'Annual Most Trusted Brands Survey' has revealed that Qantas, once the most recognizable and trusted brand in the country, has fallen out of the top 40. A complete and thorough demise of reputation and service under the current management structure
9) All members of the board should be ousted due to their continued support and decision making processes that have contributed to QF now being in the untennable situation it is
10) The inability of the executive management group to handle manage, handle or deal with the ongoing industrial disputes which could yet continue for up to 18 more months

Two examples of what can be done (Option 1)

Air France Turns to Old Hand Spinetta as CEO Gourgeon Ousted
Air France-KLM (AF)Group recalled Jean- Cyril Spinetta, 68, as chief executive officer and ousted Pierre-Henri Gourgeon amid slumping earnings and questions regarding the role of pilots in a fatal crash.
CEO since January 2009, 65-year-old Gourgeon had been slated to stay until 2013. Instead he quit after a board meeting late yesterday, with Chairman Spinetta taking charge until Air France-KLM adopts a single corporate structure that year.
Gourgeon’s position was undermined by a 60 percent drop in Air France-KLM’s share price this year, the worst performance in the region, and after safety experts said pilot training was a factor in a 2009 crash that killed 228 people. Government official Alexandre de Juniac, 48, will serve as CEO of the Air France unit, a post Gourgeon occupied, the Paris-based company said yesterday in a statement.
“Spinetta represents a safe pair of hands in a difficult period,” said Andrew Lobbenberg, a London-based Royal Bank of Scotland analyst with a “sell” rating on the stock. “They’re in a challenging position because if we head into a deteriorating macroeconomic environment they’re starting from a much weaker position than their peers.”
Option (2)

Myer Chief Executive Bernie Brookes Gets Major Salary Cut
October 21, 2011 4:22 PM EST
Amid global calls for review of excessive executive compensation while the rest of the company employees continue to tighten their belts due to wage hike freezes, an Australian retailer reduced the pay of its top boss.
Myer Chief Executive Bernie Brookes had to forego his $950,000 long-term incentive share-based payments because the company failed to meet its incentive targets. Myer earnings went down by more than 4 per cent from 12 months ago.
As a result, he suffered a sharp fall in total remuneration from the previous corresponding fiscal year which hit $5.45 million. That figure, however, is more than three times lower than his previous year's $17.3 million total executive remuneration. Despite the sharp cut, Mr Brookes's annual cash salary for the year to June 30 was $1.63 million - which would still be the envy of many Australians. It actually increased slightly from his previous year's cash pay of $1.6 million

I still wouldn't be surprised to see an 'Occupy Wall Street' style movement spring up over this. Corporate greed and government protection is rapidly becoming an unacceptable element of what 99% of society will accept, and if the warning bells aren't sounding yet within Australia's 1% then you had better pull your heads out of the trough as the 'scene of this world is changing', the masses are fighting back. I for one don't want te be one of the 1% neither now or in the distant future, especially when you have been pissing over the other 99%.

Australian public, shareholders, QF employee's - You have a choice in this matter. Make the evening of October 28 a night to remember.

[SOPS]

very very very well said an excellent post:D

[Al E. Vator]

And another point - the most damning reality of all;

Whilst presiding over all of the above (and simultaneously pushing for real-term employee wage suppression), directors pay has increased gobsmackingly.

This reality is not just farcical it's tragic.

Destroy shareholder value, destroy a brand, destroy employees futures and get a massive pay rise!

Is the world going crazy?

[Ngineer]

8) Readers Digest's 'Annual Most Trusted Brands Survey' has revealed that Qantas, once the most recognizable and trusted brand in the country, has fallen out of the top 40.

And whilst we have dropped out of the top 40, our share of the market has declined as a result.

There is a failure to recognise why this has happened, and as a result management are failing to fix it.

[600ft-lb]

Quick, 2 bottles of Grange, Ipad's and J class upgrades to all the people of this country!

[stubby jumbo]

Rumour.....lots of nervous tension around the event this Friday.

Already Coward St are worried.

Lots of people I speak to are going.......peacefully of course.;)

I want Livvie's autograph (she's a jet-star.

Can't wait to see the look on their faces.:eek:

Assembly Point Gate 11.

[blueloo]

I hope their is a full Video recording of the event.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Its amazing that a sampling of 1000 random people does not come up with the same results some of the comments to the one sided articles printed in various papers lean to.

Could it be that the Qantas crisis center is making the submissions to the papers and radio talk back? Surely not.

[Oldmate]

What time does it start?

[600ft-lb]

Careful FedSec, they will take a quote of yours out of context and put it up on keepqantasflying.com.au but not actually quote PPRuNe as the source it comes from just in case the general public want to see what other facts are being said by people who know the real story.

[gobbledock]

Well I hope there is an 'Occupy AGM' gathering outside the AGM. Staff should turn up and gather enmasse, after all it is staffs futures being played with all in the name of pure greed by a minority.
If the shareholders have half a brain they will ask some of the hard questions that need to be asked, it is their money getting frittered away if they haven't noticed yet. To be honest the time for questioning these corporate thugs is over, kick them out, the whole executive group including the Board, they have had three long years to take QF forward and instead have taken it to it's lowest ebb on record, there is your proof, forget the questions, get rid of the lot.
Shareholders, where is your gravy train? You keep voting to give the Execs huge payrises, bonuses and other treats and all they do is take take take with no giving back? Where is YOUR huge silver lining, where are your dividends, where is your share price currently sitting? If the Execs you are trusting can't pull it together in three years what do you think the next three years hold for your precious investments? If the Execs can't control the workforce how can they control your invested funds?
It is time to let it be known enough is enough.

[gobbledock]

6000ft-lb shhhhhhh. You aren't supposed to know that, remember, they are so much smarter than us.

[TIMA9X]

well I'll be.....,this is great news, and from a News Ltd source.... hope the union PR machine are up burning the candle getting this out..... bye bye LC AJ OW... the force is not with you.

[TIMA9X]

OxkowTnccgU

"First Strike Free Week in Two Months."

Funny about that, wouldn't be because it is the AGM week? Suddenly the management have decided to talk to the TWU. Do we believe them this time?
Oh the spin.....

[clotted]

What event is happening this Friday?

Me thinks Steve Purvinas and AIPA plus the cheer squad assembled here, will get a lesson on how the corporate world really works notwithstanding all the emotion and angst that will go into the meeting room at UNSW.
No different to the Senate select committee result.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Steve Purvinas is not expecting the high and mighty Board to accept any direction from the floor. I'm also sure that they have their patsies all ready with their Dorothy Dixer questions.

[ampclamp]

You see clotted, he does know what the real corporate world works.AGMs go just like that at all the majors.

[breakfastburrito]

Snap pilots strike could ground entire Qantas fleet
Simon Benson, National Political Reporter The Daily Telegraph October 24, 2011 6:00PM

QANTAS has warned that it would be forced to ground its entire international fleet if long haul pilots invoked a 48 hour strike clause contained in its protected action claim filed with Fair Work Australia.

The Daily Telegraph has learned that the airline's chief pilot and industrial relations management team held a crisis meeting last week to plan for a "1989 worst case scenario" if pilots ramped up action against the airline.

The Australian and International Pilots Association, which represents 1650 long haul Qantas pilots, claims it is not intending to engage in strike action and would do so only as a last resort.

But in its Protected Action Ballot filed with Fair Work Australia in July, a copy of which has been obtained by The Daily Telegraph, AIPA members voted overwhelmingly in favour of reserving the right to strike for up to 48 hours.

An internal Qantas briefing document obtained by The Daily Telegraph has also revealed that the airline has no contingency plan for a pilots' strike and has warned that it would have to ground the entire international fleet, and parts of its domestic operations.

It claimed that such action could leave tens of thousands of Australian travellers stranded overseas. It could also cost the airline millions of dollars in revenue.

The meeting last week, initiated by Qantas' Chief Pilot Peter Wilson, planned for several scenarios, which included bans by pilots on extended work hours or "tours of duty", two-minute stop work meetings, as well as the possibility of 48-hour strikes.

"Unlike other parts of the workforce Qantas does not have a contingency plan for pilots going on strike so the whole Qantas long haul fleet (all wide body aircraft) would be effectively grounded causing significant flight delays and cancellations," the document said.

A Qantas spokesman wouldn't confirm if secret talks had been held but confirmed that the pilots' union had sought and been granted approval by Fair Work Australia to take stoppages for up to two days.

"The pilots' union has indicated that they may take a range of actions against Qantas and naturally we are looking at how we minimise any impacts on our passengers should they go down this path," they said.

The pilots union has accused Qantas management of walking away from negotiations.

"Why on earth would management be planning for the worst when we've made it abundantly clear that all we want to do is negotiate?" AIPA vice president Captain Richard Woodward said.

"Pilots have not taken a single day's strike action and nor do we wish to. Management, on the other hand, has suspended negotiations with pilots in front of Fair Work Australia with no plans to resume them.

"Qantas pilots hate seeing the damage being done to this great airline."

The Transport Workers Union and Australian Licensed Engineers Association have agreed to suspend industrial action until the airline's annual general meeting this Friday.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard has called on both parties to settle the dispute before it escalates with the Government claiming it could end up intervening if no resolution could be reached.

A poll released yesterday revealed the majority of Australians wanted the two parties to settle the dispute but blamed management more than the unions for the current industrial unrest.
The Telegraph (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/snap-pilots-strike-could-ground-entire-qantas-fleet/story-fn6b3v4f-1226175484298).

Qantas spin out there deliberately inflaming the situation, leaking more "possibilities" to traumatize the public as much as possible.

The audacity to claim the unions are trying to destroy the airline!

[JALurker]

FYI & Comment - Opinion piece on ABC website - The Drum

Qantas in PR tail spin - The Drum Opinion - Qantas is allegedly winning the PR war against the unions, but the verdict of this week's Essential Report shows otherwise. (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3597954.html)

[argusmoon]

My mum is 80 and believes that the Telegraph is trash.
Our family has been in aviation for three generations and all my aged Uncles are incensed by what is happening to Qantas.
They are all conservative people and blame it all on Qantas management.
You can only fool some of the people......

[Daylight Robbery]

From gobbledock


'Shareholders, where is your gravy train? You keep voting to give the Execs huge payrises, bonuses and other treats and all they do is take take take with no giving back? Where is YOUR huge silver lining, where are your dividends, where is your share price currently sitting? If the Execs you are trusting can't pull it together in three years what do you think the next three years hold for your precious investments? If the Execs can't control the workforce how can they control your invested funds?'


Unfortunately I think this has been pitched to shareholders as 'us' (management) or 'them' (unions). Shareholders would have huge concern over share price and lack of dividends, but they probably have doubts as to the proposed way forward if the current management was dismissed. Not to mention a natural anti-union bias.

When it all boils down, there is a lack of experienced aviation industry candidates to come onto the board and give it an immediate, if appropriate change of direction. Although Ralph Norris would make a good new CEO.... He probably wouldn't want to go near the airline industry again, though!

[gobbledock]

Ralph Norris would have something tangible to work with however as QF isn't quite dead, yet.
And Daylight Robbery, you make a good point. The CEO is how old, 43, something like that? He has probably not even been through a financial recession since he was born, his ludicrous move into Asia is also evidence of a lack of worldly experience. Wirth-less is probably even less understanding of economics and culture, Gen Y at it's 'wirst'. Watch out tweed coat investors, no new Volvo this year, the kiddies are pissing away all your money!

Lastly, QF threatening to ground international altogether over a few hours stand down by the pilots?? My my what a crock, interesting that things would grind to a halt and they have no contingency plan, shows how vital the service that QF pilots deliver is. What a desperate statement. I hope that even the mentioning from management of pulling such a stunt is raised at the AGM. You can't manage an airline by threat and intimidation, what an obtuse management team (I use the term management team lightheartedly).

[framer]

When it all boils down, there is a lack of experienced aviation industry candidates to come onto the board and give it an immediate, if appropriate change of direction.
Anyone who doesn't have a hidden agenda and a criminal mind would suffice. Nothing fancy is required, the manager of the produce section at Coles could not do worse, grab him, he probably would be happy with half a million a year too :)

[gobbledock]

What about a shelf packer from Aldi, a forklift driver from Bunnings or a council street sweeper from Barcaldine Shire? They would do better, at least they would understand the Australian spirit.

[Keg]

This was on another thread.

At the moment having choc-a-block flights must be filling the coffers of VA.


I tell you one thing, it wouldn't surprise me if grounding aircraft domestically in recent times has actually improved the bottom line.I flew nine sectors over four days on the weekend so about 2350 seats all up. I would have less than 100 empty seats across the entirety of the 9 flights. Every flight was close chockers and jumpseat was utilised on a number of occasions.

So 'winning' all round for QF. Get to paint the unions as baddies who forced the groundings of aeroplanes but still manage to carry the same number of passengers on few flights and therefore less costs of crew pay- particularly for non 737 flights, less fuel and airways charges as well.

[C441]

I tell you one thing, it wouldn't surprise me if grounding aircraft domestically in recent times has actually improved the bottom line.

Interesting to note also that (possibly) apart from a couple of 'on the market' 73's at Avalon, 7 individual aircraft have not been grounded for the entirety of the period mentioned.

Lines of Flying have been cancelled involving any number of aircraft, possibly simply to improve the load factor with the added benefit of appearing to be caused by lack of maintenance action due to the engineers lack of cooperation.

[NewPiper]

I mentioned this on the engineers thread. Going on strike actually assists Qantas in their turnaround strategy. It gives them reason to ground old, expensive aircraft and then replace that flying with new efficient Jetstar aircraft.

Shutting down long haul ops if Pilots go on strike may seem like a radical approach or even a bluff, but they will do it if necessary and they will have the support of major shareholders. If QF are forced to bite the bullet and shutdown long haul ops, don’t expect it to start up again with the same group of Pilots, engineers and baggage handlers.

If Pilots go on strike, they can basically kiss their jobs goodbye just like 1989. If they don't go on strike, they just need to get busy accepting the fact that things need to change in LH and that change will inevitably result in some Pilot job losses from QF. If those who lose their jobs are willing to be flexible on pay and conditions, there will be plenty of rewarding work for them in other Qantas group airlines. If they are not willing to be flexible, there will be plenty of other takers hungry for those positions.

NP

[bandit2]

Interesting article on news.com.au


JETSTAR cancelled more domestic flights than Qantas last month, despite the flying kangaroo being hit by ongoing strikes.
But Qantas had the highest number of late-running planes, with just over 80 per cent of domestic flights departing on time.

A report from the Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Economics shows Jetstar cancelled 2.1 per cent of flights in September, while Qantas cancelled 1.8 per cent.

The first major Qantas disruptions began on September 20, when more than 4000 Qantas baggage handlers and ground staff stopped work for four hours as part of an ongoing row over pay and conditions.

While Jetstar is a subsidiary of Qantas it has been largely unaffected by the Qantas strikes.
A Jetstar spokeswoman said the cancellation rate in September was due to a combination of reasons, including weather and technical issues.
She said for the year ending June 2011, Jetstar had an average monthly cancellation rate of 1.4 per cent, which was less than all other major airlines.
Virgin Australia had the most on time departures amongst the other major domestic carriers, with nearly 86 per cent of departures on time.

It cancelled 1.7 per cent of domestic flights.

Tiger Airways, which returned to the skies on a reduced schedule in August after a six-week absence, is showing signs it is lifting its game.

More than 91 per cent of its flights arrived on time in September and there were no cancellations.

But it only flew 530 sectors in September, compared to 1577 the same month the previous year.

The airline was previously grounded because of Civil Aviation Safety Authority concerns after pilots flew too low into Melbourne airports on two occasions, as well as wider safety issues it had previously told the airline to address.

Jetstar blamed single runway operations in Sydney and bad weather for its delays.

The report also showed the route between Newcastle and Melbourne was the worst in Australia when it came to flight cancellations.

Nearly 6 per cent of flights from Melbourne to Newcastle were cancelled in September and more than 5 per cent on the reverse route.

Melbourne to Sydney was the second worst, with 4.7 per cent of flights cancelled.

Overall, on time performance averaged 83.2 per cent for on time departures and 82.7 per cent for arrivals - slightly more than the same time last year.

Regional Express had the best on time performance of the participating regional airlines, with 87.5 per cent of departures on time.



Read more: Guess which Australian airline cancelled most flights last month | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/guess-which-australian-airline-cancelled-most-flights-last-month/story-e6frfq80-1226176099628#ixzz1bn7LP2iH)

[kotoyebe]

If QF are forced to bite the bullet and shutdown long haul ops, don’t expect it to start up again with the same group of Pilots, engineers and baggage handlers.

This is a great strategy from the smartest guys in the room. NP should be in QF management, if he isn't already. But I can think of a couple of hurdles for the smartest guys in the room.

There's that pesky FWA, and the fact that the 3 unions are taking PIA...the P standing for protected. They would have to completely shut down longhaul, and some of shorthaul. Sort of a reverse 1989.

So I guess they would have to make the best part of 5000 staff redundant. So at approx 100k each for redundancy pay, thats 500mil. But what's another 500mil when you've just splashed over 1Bil on some fancy new A320's.

Then they would have to refund a full years worth of pre sold tickets to customers. I'd hate to think how much that would be.

Then they would have the whole long haul fleet sitting up against the fence for how long? I suppose they could repaint them silver, but they've made redundant all the pilots that could fly the 767's, 747's, A380's.

They could start a new airline and hope that the redundant pilots would be desperate to come back under lower t&c. They couldn't call it Qantas, because they have shut that down. I've thought of a great new name for this new airline...NP Troll Airlines.

[TIMA9X]

http://images.smh.com.au/2011/10/25/2729427/art-353-John-Shakespeare-200x0.jpg
OCCUPY QANTAS
The Qantas board will probably be wondering tomorrow morning why they ever agreed to hold their annual shareholder meeting at a university campus.
With the Australian Shareholders' Association raring to grill chairman Leigh Clifford on remuneration and several unions keen to spill the board, the Occupy Sydney band of protesters now plan to make an appearance at the University of NSW's Sir John Clancy Auditorium for the meeting.

Peter Somerville of the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association helped rally support last week at the Occupy Sydney protest in Martin Place, which had a large contingent of students.
Somerville received his best reaction from the crowd when he mentioned the 71 per cent pay rise awarded to Qantas's chief executive, Alan Joyce, last financial year.




Read more: An earthy bouquet with hints of wallaby (http://www.smh.com.au/business/an-earthy-bouquet-with-hints-of-wallaby-20111025-1mi8r.html#ixzz1bnkRYusJ)



Friday is shaping up to be very interesting indeed.

[Going Boeing]

Posted by NewPiper
If Pilots go on strike, they can basically kiss their jobs goodbye just like 1989.

During early negotiations, it became obvious that if we didn't stand and fight during this EBA, then we all wouldn't have jobs. We have nothing to lose with industrial action and a hell of a lot to lose if we cow-tow to SLIC. :ugh:

[73to91]

When it all boils down, there is a lack of experienced aviation industry candidates to come onto the board and give it an immediate, if appropriate change of direction.
There are some experienced people out there Daylight.

Just recently over a few beers with other former staff, we were discussing who we knew of who would be good board members. These were former QF staff only because we didn't know of old TN guys.

The problem is, having 1, 2 or 3 won't make a difference unless the Chairman was removed along with some long standing members e.g. Jimmy Bowtie.

The names suggested were IT and Sales but one very experienced operational guy as well.

Ian Riddell: Ian Riddell | SITA.aero (http://www.sita.aero/content/ian-riddell)
Peter Stainlay: Stainlay Consulting - Who we are (http://www.stainlayconsulting.com/who.html)
David Forsyth: David Forsyth, Chairman | Airservices (http://airservicesaustralia.com/about/our-governance/our-board/david-forsyth/)
Julian Hercus - Stock Quotes & Company News | Reuters.com (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/officerProfile?symbol=RCT.AX&officerId=298343)
Brian Wild - was the executive Chairman of the JetSet Travel Grp

All of them apparently good people with plenty of experience in the business world (not just board members). All left the airline from senior positions and they are all, Australians.

Perhaps some other names could be suggested.

[rmcdonal]

They could start a new airline and hope that the redundant pilots would be desperate to come back under lower t&c. They couldn't call it Qantas, because they have shut that down.
Didn't the Gov' make a law that prevents you from being made redundant in one company and then re-employed doing the same job on lesser terms for the same company with a new name?

[Hugh Jarse]

"Transfer of business", I thought it was called?

[Mud Skipper]

Come on leave NewPiper alone, I need a laugh now and again, his ignorance is only surpassed by that of senior Q management. Bluff and Bull$hit doesn't crew aircraft, no amount of HR spiv will close the door and start the engines.

Talking to a few J* pilots it appears many of the flights being cancelled are due to no crew (pilots) being available to operate then. Just as Cathay (http://www.wcarn.com/cache/news/16/16321.html) is finding out, experienced pilots will not hang around when there is something better on offer. Of the 100 or so pilots who have resigned (not including retirees) Qantas in recent years only around 25% have gone to work for JetStar, the rest have just seen the despair of no prospects, no future and no promotion and headed off to the middle east etc.

I'm sure NP and his mates thought they could get these boys and girls bluffed to work for cr@p with J* but Psychology101 has not worked and we are just feeding well trained crews to the competition all over the world.

Used car salesmen, the lot of them.

[ampclamp]

A bit concerned about the Occupy people going to the agm. Despite my sympathy for the movement in general some are just outright anarchists looking for a venue. We need a presence but must be orderly with a clear message.
Because if there is any hint of trouble you can bet on the spin and bulldust being written up right now. :yuk: Union thugs blah blah....:ugh:

[TIMA9X]

A bit concerned about the Occupy people going to the agmYeah, I see your point but, it appears the whole unions v Qantas struggle has spilled over into the public domain. Joyce's 71% pay rise is a big issue, created by Qantas management itself.

I don't know who is providing strategic advice to Joyce and the Qantas board but announcing a $2 million pay rise for the chief executive, to $5 million a year, within a month of announcing 1000 staff layoffs was a corporate brain explosion. It's not the only misstep. my bold pretty much sums up the feeling out there.

Read more: Qantas Locked In Battle With Unions (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/loyalty-no-longer-its-own-reward-20111023-1meb0.html#ixzz1bqIoVKMX)

I believe there is huge support for the Qantas staff and LC, AJ and Co know it. I also believe the mainstream media will follow events closely on Friday. The only thing the Q management have in their favour, they scheduled the AGM on a Friday, generally a low interest day for business stories unless something big happens.... like the $2 million pay rise for the chief executive, gets voted down.

It's very possible the two major Q investors may be feeling the pressure as well, if they are seen as being too supportive of the board as it may damage their reputation in the next financial year.. for example, Qantas losing market share to Virgin and/or a profits downgrade warning in the next couple of months.....:rolleyes: JP Morgan for example would put themselves between a rock and a hard place and possibly the person/s who manage the Q investment portfolio losing his/her job/s.

[ohallen]

Never get between an investment bank and a pile of money because that is all they are interested in and can change tactics on a whim if that suits their cause. Some in the US are currently facing the prospect of prison which is a great outcome.

You can also bet they are playing both sides and will have a plan B. Has anyone noticed large chunks of DJ shares changing hands lately????

What beats me is why they seem to be accepting the Rat spin unless they know something no one else does. Don't believe for a moment that fully informed market actually exists.

[ampclamp]

ohallen , dead right. Never think any large investor / bank has any sentimentality , nationalistic or otherwise altruistic notions in the investments it makes. If they can screw out a poofteenth of a percentage point higher return by doing over whoever stands in the way, they will.

Also, imho any meaningful gov't or employee intervention on the share register by way of ownership at this time is as likely as me giving birth to the next messiah.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

If the announcement of August was not clear enough for readers, I received this yesterday.

Dear Mr Purvinas

Qantas Sale Act (QSA)

I refer to your letter dated 26 October 2011 which included certain allegations that Qantas is not in compliance with its obligations under the QSA and the Qantas Constitution (Constitution).

Qantas and its Directors are very aware of their obligation to comply with the QSA and the
Constitution and have taken no action and do not intend to take any action which breach those
obligations.

Qantas proposes to enter joint ventures in Asia which will operate local airlines. Each of those joint ventures must be substantially owned and effectively controlled by nationals of the county in which the airline is based. If this is not done, those airlines will not be able to be designated to operate as carriers of the relevant country.

As those airlines will be substantially owned and effectively controlled by nationals of the county in which the airline is based, it will be the relevant minority owned joint venture, not Qantas, which will be conducting the relevant services. Qantas proposes to codeshare with these airlines as it currently does with many other foreign carriers.

In these circumstances, neither the QSA nor the Constitution are relevant. Even if it were possible for Qantas to own a majority of one of the proposed non-Australian airlines, neither the QSA nor the Constitution apply to operations conducted by subsidiaries.

I trust this has answered your questions.

Yours sincerely
Alan Joyce
Chief Executive

[Millet Fanger]

So the Qantas board's business plan is to starve the Qantas Airline of capital so that it can invest billions of dollars into foreign owned and controlled businesses in which Qantas only holds a minority stake.

Maybe "13 Black" might be a better bet on the Roulette wheel at the casino!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

But 13 is black? I would think them more likely to bet on 13 red.

[PIOT Bord]

The sad thing is that when placing the bet AJ ignored the advice from the croupier that it would be impossible for such a bet to ever win, stating that he had heard the same sort of negative comment about the decision not to bet on 777.

[ohallen]

Swiss bankers I worked with had an unwritten rule...if we give you our money, WE tell you what to do.

I wonder how Mr Joyce intends to do that with a minority holding in whatever form it takes in a foreign jurisdiction.

They have not learnt a thing from Vietnam and will soon be playing with the big boys.

I say again, the shareholders clearly don't understand the risk premium attached to this strategy either because they dont care or they have been "spun". I dont think it was the former.

This is going to end badly for everyone.

[mmciau]

Letter from Joyce to Secretary of Union highlights poor command of English letter writing skills.

Poor formatting.

Shows lack of care so would this trend carry through to his capacity to scrutinise and analyse a Contract?

Mike

[hotnhigh]

Aaah, sorry, where does the majority of funding come from wrt these supposed ventures? ( Joint or otherwise?)

In these circumstances, neither the QSA nor the Constitution are relevant. Even if it were possible for Qantas to own a majority of one of the proposed non-Australian airlines, neither the QSA nor the Constitution apply to operations conducted by subsidiaries.

Ding, ding bloody ding Alan.
Hello?

[ohallen]

And dont forget the funding will only start with the set up costs and will continue until profitability OR exit occurs and as Vietnam has shown all debts settled whether contractual or not. Nice one.

Reference to majority funding.....does anyone know if it is majority OR all funding.

Why would minorities put their hands in their pockets with such a high risk strategy? They are merely being used to access markets through some sham arrangement, so if they do end up with equity, look for some back door funding from Australia.

[TIMA9X]

Suddenly the management have decided to talk to the TWU. Do we believe them this time?
Oh the spin.....

4GQpcNaSZ44



Just as I thought...

[gobbledock]

Tomorrow night will be farcical. Might as well bring in some dancing girls, the river dancers and face painting, even fancy dress and bowties!
In fact, has anybody phoned The Chaser Boys yet, that would liven up this predictable spin wielding, lie disseminating yearly crock of ****e meeting.

As for management talking to the unions and the tension allegedly downgraded this week, it is just another textbook management tactic leading up to the meeting, shareholders, employees and the public shouldn't fall for it. One day management is talking about bargaining, the next day commiting to outsourcing more workers.Management would eat turd sandwiches this week if it meant getting their glorious remuneration packages increased tomorrow night. Don't fall for it folks, it's a tactic, an an old, boring, well used one at that.

[Dixons Millions]

Does anyone out there know where our good friend Senator Xenophon is at with the QSA Amendment?

And while I'm here:

Originally Posted by Qantas Sales Act 1992
change of its company name to a name that does not include
the expression “Qantas”; and
prohibit Qantas from conducting scheduled international air
transport passenger services under a name other than:
(i) its company name; or
(ii) a registered business name that includes the expression
“Qantas”; and
require that the head office of Qantas always be located in
Australia; and
require that of the facilities, taken in aggregate, which are
used by Qantas in the provision of scheduled international
air transport services (for example, facilities for the
maintenance and housing of aircraft, catering, flight
operations, training and administration), the facilities located
in Australia, when compared with those located in any other
country, must represent the principal operational centre for
Qantas; and...


If that is not in black and white, what the hell is? In a court of law I don't think AJ would be looking so smug. If nothing else, they are definitely in breach of the "intent" of the QSA when it was written.

[Mstr Caution]

Tomorrow night will be farcical. Might as well bring in some dancing girls, the river dancers and face painting, even fancy dress and bowties!

Gobbledock,

Tonights the night!

Tanked share price.
No dividends to investors.
Death threats.
TWU stop work meetings planned for Friday.
Increased security at the AGM.
"Parked " Aircraft.

Stuff all the disrupted passengers, angry investors & disgruntled staff. Tonights cocktail party at it's "top secret" location must not be disturbed.

[simsalabim]

"In these circumstances, neither the QSA nor the Constitution are relevant. Even if it were possible for Qantas to own a majority of one of the proposed non-Australian airlines, neither the QSA nor the Constitution apply to operations conducted by subsidiaries"
Yours sincerely Alan Joyce
Chief Executive

In that one paragraph he sums it all up. I can do what I want . Dont worry about 90 years of history , or the Australian Govt. or the Australian people.
What a lad.

[NewPiper]

CaptCloudBuster,

Congratulations!! Its so refreshing to see someone get stuck into AIPA rather than Qantas. If the Pilots or indeed other union members want to rescue any value out of their claims, your respective union leaders need a big kick in the ass!

A380 exit strategy is spot on...Don't for a moment think there is any 'real' care about the junior positions that will be lost, they just care about themselves!!

NP

[Barry Mundy]

Another one gone.

Whilst in BNE yesterday morning saw a 737-400 with qantas titles removed and a doggy tail repaint (red over roo) but not the rudder where parts of the roo were still visible depart for South. (QF6209?)

[TIMA9X]

http://images.smh.com.au/2011/10/27/2733631/qantas300-300x340.jpg
Qantas AGM: why the gathering storm's about to break

The scene is set for a stormy Qantas annual shareholder meeting tomorrow.
Three months after the airline announced it would cut 1000 jobs and increase expansion into Asia, union heavyweights will come face-to-face with chief executive Alan Joyce and the board.

Read more: Qantas AGM: why the gathering storm's about to break (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-agm-why-the-gathering-storms-about-to-break-20111027-1ml8h.html#ixzz1bxS059Ts)

[aveng]

If you put that mug on all the spinners the engine bird strike rate would probably fall.:ok:

[argusmoon]

Nice Tiara AJ

[ohallen]

This whole grandstanding re the AGM is shameful and merely reinforces the "gang" now want to offend the retail shareholders.

There is simply no evidence of any meaningful threat beyond some event in May that was trotted out when it suited their cause.If there was, where were the Police charges.

This is Australia NOT the Middle East and should be seen for what it is.

I am sorry employees, but unless AJ et all are booted, the game is over and the sooner they leave our shores the better. If they take the cash, that is what the owners of the Company allowed them to do. Somehow all of those left in the ashes will learn to survive.

As for AIPA holding out some dim hope that the Govt would intervene, I hope they have something better up their sleeves because that isnt going to work and it never had a chance in hell in my books.

I am tired of this whole deceitful and dishonest game where the public are taken for fools that can be played with.

Unless something meaningful happens tomorrow, start planning to fly other airlines unless you want to contribute to the "gangs" obscene bonuses and reward their bad corporate behaviour.

I wish we were somewhere else but we are not.

[gobbledock]

TIMA9X, thanks for the link. I notice the reporter referred to SP as a 'thorn in QF's side', thank god SP wasn't referred to 'as a pain in the ass', I would have been worried :E

Aveng, that is hilarious! I would never have thought that AJ could be linked to a reduction in bird strikes and a reduced need for boroscopes:E

mstr caution, I imagine 'cocktails' will be held at The Hellfire Club' ?
Regardless, can you imaginr all those chumps sitting around comparing bonus slips, salary payslips, sipping green tea while gently eating their cucumber sandwiches, and bleating about those horrid bullyboy unions and how they are endangering the forward motion of the execs gravy train? I would imagine at some stage during the night the execs may even have a stress induced panick attack and phone Fumblenese or Fergo to 'receive some quality wet nursing and assurance that all will be ok, and come midnight friday exective remuneration and bonuses will still reign supreme'.

Toot toot, all aboard, next stop parliament house to pick up some more passengers for the gravy train, toot toot.

[TIMA9X]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QSKc28ihm4o/TqkI3WylsgI/AAAAAAAABPg/mhwBI-rYPBA/s340/qantas-ban-tima9x.jpg

Well guys & gals after ten months with over 160,000 hits the legal eagles at Q finally got me. I wish to thank all at the ABC news, Sky news, Channel 10 news, my team of muso's and the many others who helped me in gathering the news clips that Qantas didn't like, the real story behind the spin. Lastly, youtube (google) and all of you on here with the encouragement and support.

I will do all I can to help with your battles but I and my team have been sidelined by the dark side for the foreseeable future. Until then, I wish you all the best a luck, you have a lot of support out there.


.:ok:

[Keg]

Isn't that just freaking typical of them. Thanks for the help thus far TIMA9X.

[The Kelpie]

From the Qantas literature on the AGM

Shareholders who are unable to attend the AGM and have access to the internet will be able to access a live webcast of the AGM on the Qantas website, www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/investors- annual-meetings/global/en

[lame1]

If only Qantas put as much time and effort into staff relations as they do with their propagander.The current board are way out of touch.
Down load" LIAR" from the Sex Pistols and u will know how i feel.Because thats how i will feel at 11am today
Goodnight

[TIMA9X]

I and my team have been sidelined by the dark side for the foreseeable future.As it turns out, I have been allowed to continue... I post these videos for the staff who are out of the country so they can view on pprune when they return. I am very grateful for the support from our ABC, may the force be with you all...:ok:

This was last nights 7.30 report for those who missed it.

gxO0BBWVe4w

[gobbledock]

Welcome back TIMA9X,
The link to the 7:30 report sadly contained more nauseating dribble from GT. And AJ's rhetoric about protecting QF's future was yet again the same worn out beaten around method of blaming his workforce for any current and future insecurity or profit loss.
At the end of the day the current unresolved mess along with all associated past and present grievances, as well as share price devaluation, poor decision making and even cartel activities are the CEO's accountability. He can blame staff, unions and others as much as he wants but HE is accountable. But dear shareholder, don't forget WHO put him there, the board did, so when you are at the AGM tonight do think about not only the performance o the CEO over the past 3 years, but also the actions of what the board has done over the past 3 years, including appointing AJ to the CEO position.
It is time to act to prevent a further demise of this iconic airline and turn things around and look to the 90 years ahead and the possibilities that abound. It is time for new direction, new blood, new ideas, new strategy and ACCOUNTABILITY. That time is now.

[Zapatas Blood]

"just about everybody agrees that the pilots and engineers are about the best in the world....."

Strewth.

[SixDemonBag]

So AJ and justify there pay by stating it's 'in line with the top asx 50'. But the best engineers and pilots (as claimed by himself) are overpaid in a global comparison?

Nice one.

[Mr Leslie Chow]

So of you look at the big picture now, management's ego won't stop them at no costs and they ONLY will take the Govt intervening for there to be resolution.

Proof of this is clear but is reinforced by the likes of said 'journalist' now sprucing it.

The lack of respect for a workforce is astounding and unforgettable.....

[another superlame]

So what's it gunna be today?

A bloodbath

or

The status quo remains with no change and all board members positions in tact.

[neville_nobody]

Does Geoffry Thomas realise that most of these so-called competitors to QF are government sponsored shams operating either tax free, or with very generous work laws etc. Or in the case of Air NZ bailed out by the tax payer.

[TIMA9X]

http://www.media-server.com/m/p/6as7a3jj

live stream for AGM, hope it works

[wpax]

Haven't seen this posted yet:

Qantas warns unions to accept shareholders (http://atwonline.com/operations-maintenance/news/qantas-warns-unions-accept-shareholders-vote-1027)

A couple of quotes (from the author, Geoffrey Thomas):

Qantas (QF) has warned the three unions at the center of the airline’s industrial turmoil to accept the shareholders’ vote at Friday’s Annual General Meeting (AGM) and stop trashing the airline.

Joyce challenged the unions to “accept the decision of shareholders,” which is expected to be a near-unanimous vote in favor of the airline’s strategy to broaden it horizons and invest in major growth opportunities in Asia with joint venture partners.

How does he know that the vote will be "near-unanimous"?

[denabol]

An answer to the state premiers sucking up to QF.

Qantas intervention plea from states doesn't stack up | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/10/28/confused-messages-about-qantas-from-nsw-and-vic/)

[simsalabim]

Link working well . The spin is incredible.

[SimonBl]

This is the first time I have watched an AGM, ever. Can't you be jailed for telling fibs?

[AWB_Clerk]

They have been telling fibs for years, why stop now?

AWBC

[neville_nobody]

Noone on the board had knowledge of the Freight cartel........

Really?:hmm:

There is a judge in the states who had a different opinion on that however due to Australian law nothing could be done about it.

[SimonBl]

First question/commenter started with "I am pleased to hear that Mr Joyce is so pleased with himself" - to great applause...

[piston broke again]

Had a chuckle at that myself!

[hadagutfull]

More updates please for those of us manning the forts....

[DJ737]

wish that old fart would shut up

[climingflightlevels]

85 year old handing it to clifford, joyce and the board :D

[Cookie7]

LC: I got your letter and I DID read it...
Mr T? : I'M NOT FINISHED & I KNOW I HAVE 60 SECONDS.

LC was replying like a smart-arse, Mr T was, err, irate and the issue was surrounding, well you guessed it, not addressing union/IR (something) - was hard to hear when I was crying with laughter and the background applause was amusing.

[gobbledock]

Noone on the board had knowledge of the Freight cartel........
Really now, well if that is the case it shows how disconnected the senior echelon is on what goes on within the airline, and they deserve to get the arse based on that alone. Accountability though sits with the CEO.

First question/commenter started with "I am pleased to hear that Mr Joyce is so pleased with himself" - to great applause...
So would I be if I was getting paid 5 million per year, and returning fc#k all in return. Well, I would be not only be pleased, but I would wrap myself in razor wire and douse my weener in petrol for that kind of coin.
This is what is going down:
Bravo bravo, clap clap for the man. I can see the shareholders, many wearing tweed coats and panama hats applauding eagerly, admiring the great little man as he outlays all of QF's strategies and challenges (all based on lies about staff and unions) and how the Red Haired Carbon Queen is going to jump to his defence (the crowd goes wild, the shareholders smell a possible improvement in their investment).
They cheer some more as AJ talks up future strategies, advancement into Asia and new aircraft types expected this century (the crowd is on it's feet madly cheering, hurrahing, clapping and cheering some more).
Finally, the promise of future dividends has the Volvo drivers errupting in Jubilation - 'we love Alan, we love Alan, we love Alan' they bellow, whipped into a frenzy by the Irish accent and pint sized thirst for wealth, but wait it is a standing ovation instigated by Geoffery Thomas, Wirthless, Jimmy Bowtie, and a conga line of trough hoovering parasites who can smell a pay increase coming'.
This is too much for some to take, the thought of riches beyond their wildest dreams causes some to faint, some to climax, some to lose control of their bowels.
Finally in a scene reminicent of Apocalypse Now, Colonel AJ Kurtz and his band of closest deranged associates prepare to fight the approaching Unions in a showdown not to be missed.
Stay tuned..

[Ngineer]

So Jet* take away Qf's routes, re-employ staff from overseas, and AJ calls this creating thousands of jobs for Aussies?? Go figure.

[piston broke again]

The old fella's up again giving it to clifford and corrine namblard. Providing this afternoon's entertainment!

[tgbgtgb]

Awful lot of red ties in the audience....

[tail wheel]

Early news:

Joyce stares down unions at Qantas AGM - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-28/qantas-holds-agm/3605804)

Anger soars at Qantas AGM - National News - National - General - The Canberra Times (http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/national/national/general/anger-soars-at-qantas-agm/2339546.aspx)

Don't get too optimistic as big voting blocks of shares will probably vote for the Board's Motions.

[SimonBl]

Unfortunately, I received visitors up until now and they didn't understand that I wanted to watch the Qantas AGM :-) I must say though that Mr Clifford seems to be quite an arrogant fellow "I will decide who answers the question" and "I will decide if we answer" etc.

[another superlame]

Simon you beat me to it, his arrogance is unreal.

He is not there to listen to anyone,he is there to treat people with utmost contempt.

[SimonBl]

A small shareholder, a member of the public is now giving Mr Clifford some stick saying that the whole AGM process is a farce.

[Ken Borough]

Awful lot of red ties

Yes, they sure are awful! Surely people on a good income could afford to buy something more tasteful than sport of cheap bit of rubbish provided by a union?

[SimonBl]

A question from a shareholder now alluding to Ms Ward's "experience with aircraft leasing" :D

Mr Clifford is trying to dodge the issue, but the questioner is not letting him off with a "will discuss after the meeting'.

(Paraphrasing) "You haven't been able to run two existing airlines in Asia at a profit, what makes you think that you can with a new one?"

[maggot]

Nice work Eytan, very well presented in a total quagmire

[SimonBl]

Okay, the remuneration fun is about to begin....

James Strong is waffling on, justifying how everyone misunderstands the pay models and stressed that AJ did NOT receive a 71% pay increase.

He 'only' earnt $3.8M this year, well under his 'opportunity' pay.

Questions beginning.... Steve's up...

[SimonBl]

Steve's proposed that the 3 motions that were 'ignored' be presented...

Mr Clifford isn't wearing it and won't accept... Steve's been shutdown, the board won't accept the proposal.

[SimonBl]

Comments from the ASA rep on the share price and the lack of dividend.... "It's time to hold this board to account and ... to vote against this resolution"

(Does anyone keep wanting these updates or am I being annoying?)

[neville_nobody]

I wonder which airlines Mr Strong considers 'comparable'?

It sure isn't any of his Asian competitors.

However they love to compare their workers salaries to those in Asia.

[V-Jet]

keep updating - some of us are in places where the net is too slow to watch it...

Its depressing as it would be impossible for these guys not to vote themselves pay rises for wrecking the airline, but interesting none the less.

[hadagutfull]

Keep the comments coming ....

[SimonBl]

Mr Barry Jackson speaking now... (QF pilot?) "If Alan doesn't talk about our salaries, we won't talk about his"

[over_centre]

Keep the updates coming SimonBL. Probably a lot like me that can't watch the web stream continuously.

[SimonBl]

Barry: "When boarding a flight, turn left and talk to us, not turn right straight into Business Class".

He's a good speaker. "Other airlines working together with the staff to improve their airlines, I haven't seen that of late." - That got applause.

Mr Clifford stated that he does talk to the staff whenever there's time on flights. He's also conscious of maintaining the proper links between management and staff, via the unions. Next questioner...

[SimonBl]

Comment re lack of dividend. Mr Clifford "I understand the frustration re lack of dividend"

Mr Paul Cousins - "Since Mr Joyce came in, the share price has dropped 50%, why the hell hasn't his pay dropped 50%?"

Mr Murphy - "I find it really difficult that we're discussing remuneration now .. while this company is going down the drain"

"The baggage handlers, the pilots seem to matter to me. It doesn't take a brains trust to discuss this"

"Alan said this morning 'We treat all customers the same, including politicians'. The difference is that the politicians don't buy the tickets, we do"

Alan Turbridge (I think that's right, the 85 yo) is back...

[Centre of Pressure]

" ... Simple maths question ... Since Mr. Joyce came long, share prices have dropped 50%, i just wanted to know why the he11 his salary hasn't dropped 50%" <--- Legend

[Cookie7]

"It doesn't take a brains-trust to get some negotiations happening!"

Now Mr T is up again! (That 85y.o.) :D

[SimonBl]

New speaker - "I'm very sorry that we can't pay our CEO more, but you know who I feel sorrier for? Our shareholders. If times are tough, it should be tough for all."

[SimonBl]

1.5m proxies voted FOR the CEO's remuneration... 42K AGAINST.

Passed... Shouts of 'shame', boo's etc. Not popular.

[piston broke again]

Passed to plenty of boo's from the audience...

[Shed Dog Tosser]

War it is then, PIA will be coming out of the box.

[SimonBl]

Mr Chris Burley - "I understand that 71% of short term has been paid out this year. Share price halved, lost market share, no dividend. What would would have to happen to the company for the short term incentive to be cut back to say 50%"

New speaker "I understand that If an QF executive meets the 'average' benchmark, they get 50% of their bonus. In normal jobs, if you're average you get to keep your job. Please explain" (paraphrasing, sorry)

[AWB_Clerk]

It was always going to happen unfortunately. The mum and dad shareholders were never going to stack up against corporate shareholders.

The woman who spoke earlier was right, the meeting is a farce.

AWBC

[Cookie7]

I wonder what the QF share price is/has been doing before, during and after this "AGM farce" - to quote one of the persons asking questions.

[whatever6719]

Why do they even bother with this sham process when the outcome has already been determined by their fellow trough feeders. It's an insult to our intelligence.
What an absolute CROCK!!

[SimonBl]

Mr Malcolm Fraser (no, not that one)... "You're hearing the voice of the ordinary person. Why do you have to pay such a high salary to get the best effort? There are lots of people who would give you that for far less"

"There's one thing your missing. Leadership in restraint. As in 'I want to give my best so that airline has a future'. if executives followed this strategy, we'd have more success."

Leigh Clifford is insinuating that they are being restrained...

[SimonBl]

Jack's back - While this gentleman has a lot of valid points, I am afraid he's being seen a bit like the comic relief for the day. He's 'discussing' the terrible financial situation.

"Dividend Related Post Traumatic Stress Disorder" "I'm all against it"

[Keg]

I would have loved to be there. Unfortunately I'm at home studying (on a day off) for a sim tomorrow. It sounds like it was a cracker but ultimately it's a sham process for a sham of an executive and board.

[Specnut727]

Does anyone know what percentage of the shares are owned by the board members ?

[SimonBl]

Final resolution being voted on now.

1.5M proxies FOR and 61.8K AGAINST. I could tell you the result.

Meeting now closed. Wow, that was a bit of an eye opener for me. We have a day off in Perth today (CHOGM), hence why I could watch. I am pleased I helped some out who couldn't. Now let the fur fly, I suspect.

[Keg]

1.5 million for is probably just Dixon's and Joyce's share status.

[73to91]

Hindsight - chairman was just so smug because.........he knew the numbers.

The institutional shareholders are the ones to blame.

What a joke

[WheelsandBrakes]

Clifford told the AGM that they don't look at airlines that are government-owned blah, blah, blah, when comparing executive salaries - WTF????

Why then, do you compare OUR salaries to these airlines?

[hadagutfull]

Well, this is the first and last AGM ive ever had an interest in....
This is what corporate Australia is all about ha?

Corporate world looking after corporate world. What a disgusting display of arrogance and bull****.

Ok idiots... do it your way... off to Asia we go....

[Roger that.]

I reckon our beloved board (with their new and improved salaries) just added another 6 - 12 months war with the AIPA, ALAEA and TWU. If the PM was watching I'm sure she's say "Well they stuffed that, we are going to have to step in".

As for the voting...what a joke. Now I know how they must of felt in South Africa....One man, one vote.

[Disengagement]

Jack Tiburn for PM :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[WheelsandBrakes]

"Virgin isn't gov owned or supported"

Right you are - but they don't compare my salary to the employees over that side of the fence as that would mean a pay INCREASE with a TOTAL WAGE PACKAGE - and we never want the truth to get in the way of a good PR battle!

[booglaboy]

Think you will find the board including CEO and chairman have seriously under-estimated the power of the people. I might have the 'power of one' but when corporate greed destroys our company and it's history the people will rise up and smite their enemy

[Cobra]

Well, that went well didn't it ? Even GT has been commenting on the ABC, basically supporting the Company line. Nothing new there, I guess.

Maybe it's time for ALL the disputing groups to get together & engage a PR Company/Media Advisor to get your message and facts across to the public and Institution Investors, cos it ain't working the way it is now.

[the_company_spy]

The current industrial unrest at Qantas was never going to be settled or influenced by the AGM. Buckle up and hold on for round two, its going to get nasty.

[ohallen]

Not sure they underestimated it, they just don't care what you think.

This AGM proved that they serve little purpose and if you thought you had a problem before, just wait until you now have to deal with an overfed ego.

This is life or death, with not much in between. The only thing that is certain is that AJ is in charge and now has a mandate to do what he wants and to hell with the rest of you.

Fancy committing to an Asian strategy BEFORE you have expertise on board and then admitting you know it is a problem. Shows the arrogance.

Any Rat employee out there is now fair game and don't for a moment think International is the only issue on the agenda because they will come back and mop up domestic with Jetstar when it suits them.

Have to say I thought all the union reps were pretty ordinary.

Game over.

[ratpoison]

If the PM was watching I'm sure she's say "Well they stuffed that, we are going to have to step in".

I think you will find that the political moron's and filth destroying this country are also in on the game. That's why the 'pillow biter' and co are so arrogant.

One needs to go back to 'that year' to find out what happened when the PM 'stepped in'!!! :hmm:

[DJ737]

Buckle up and hold on for round two, its going to get nasty.

No it won't.
There are only two options open to the QANTAS board.........

1 : The unions back down and management win ( This is the most likely scenario)
2 : They close the airline down

there is no 3rd option

The unions could go on an all out strike, but then the board would default to option 2

What's the unions next move? they can't win but there are 2 ways they can lose.

[maggot]

yes DJ737, the world really is black & white :rolleyes:

[the_company_spy]

DJ737 option 3 is a negotiated outcome but involves many months of pain before both sides meet at an agreeable middle position.

[hotnhigh]

After listening and watching the continuing arrogance displayed by the board, I now have little hesitation in thinking that the board will be quite happy to carry out option 2.
Clearly they have no time for the thoughts of the average australian small shareholder, nor do they run the company with any consideration of what these average australian shareholder thinks is fair. This is simply their toy, to which they want open slather to plunder for their own personal gain.
There was still no real substance in any comments regarding the asian strategy, nor any indication of how this fixes qantas' alleged problems.

[Take five]

Just been to the A.G.M.
The whole process was a farce to the nth degree.

Very depressing, knowing that the people in charge of our fine company at this moment in time, have no conscience, or thought for anyone in this world but themselves.

They truly do not care at all for the brand, the shareholders or their employees.

The chairman is a megalomaniac who rules over a board of yes men and women who have no direction or plan.

I, for one, will do everything in my power to thwart their every move.

They are a blight on the whole of society.

They may as well shut the doors now as they will not win this battle in the end.

It truly is them or us.

[V-Jet]

For the last ten years it has been them and us.

If unions win, there is a good chance Qantas will prosper.

If unions lose Qantas is finished.

If unions don't fight Qantas is finished.

There is absolutely nothing to lose. In fact, I would (and I am NO fan of Branson) prefer to see Qantas destroyed by union action as a mercy killing to 'reward' the utter clowns who threw out Borghetti. End the gravy train for the most incompetent group of managers since Field Marshal Haig decided to order men to walk slowly towards machine guns armed to the teeth with extra sharp bayonnets.

[Orangputi]

what a bunch of whores feeding at the trough and I apologise to the whores they are much better people the QANTAS BOARD they ARE THE SCUM OF THE EARTH! and i sold my shares at 5.20 ! i cant believe that this fake democracy is ok, in China they would al be executed!

Complete ars#*oles the laot of them!

ete

[DJ737]

option 3 is a negotiated outcome

I believe the time for a negotiated outcome (without external intervention) has well and truly passed. The board has a mandate to steam roller reform thru and that is what they will do in the coming 6 to 12 months. :suspect:

[noip]

Home Page of Jack Tilburn, Corporate Terminator (http://www.jacktilburn.com/)

for those curious about a few things at the AGM .....


N

[Power]

with all these pay increases AJ can finally afford to get his teeth fixed

[Dangly Bits]

Listening to him made me physically ill. I wonder what would happen if EVERBODY in the company resigned? Pilots, bagggage handlers, Engineers, even admin. Don't go back until you get a new board, CEO, and top tier of management. The shareholders would soon get the idea! If not, buy up the leftover shell of what would be left.

Would it be feasible?

Oh and ask for the $88 million in bonuses back! They didn't earn them.

DB

[SimonBl]

Channel 10 must have been at the other Qantas AGM. I'm disgusted at the one sided view that I just saw on Perth news. How the news producers can sleep at night amazes me. Not one mention of the hard questions or the anger shown at the passing of the CEO's remuneration package. Sigh.

You guys certainly have a struggle on your hands bring to get the message out there. I do what I can to friends when they ask or make a comment, but I'm just one.

[Toruk Macto]

I think Australia became alittle more like China today.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Both Joyce and Clifford said something today that reaffirms to me what needs to be done next. They will be assisting us greatly with the next stage. I thank you in advance.

[ampclamp]

Qantas clearly has a first class board. They are never, ever wrong about anything.

They understand your worry and frustration and are, and always are doing, everything that should be done.

And if something was done wrong or maybe "regretably" they were not there at the helm when it was done and therefore thankfully, not responsible. Absolutely brilliant.

As an aside I loved the inference that the SIA CEO is getting money / perks under the table above the stated numbers when compared to AJs fat little package. Hope he was listening.

[gobbledock]

Atta boy Steve, exactly what I hoped to hear from you.
We could easily erupt over this but need to stay cool, certainly vent verbally, but take a breather, strategize this one through, play smart and then as a last result play as dirty as can be, but that day is not now. If AJ an LC think that they have won the war then they certainly are living in 'cloud cuckoo land', today was the 'testing of the waters' and only round one. Things have only warmed up, Engineers have been toying around for a half hour here and there, the TWU and the ramp brotherhood haven't even started to fidget and don't forget 'hell hath no fury like some of the worlds best pilots' when they get screwed in the a#s, wait til the real games begin!

The time now is to examine in detail every word that came out of the mouths of the 'Bonus Brothers' today. Yes, examine it, dissect it, analyze it, reconstruct it. These incompetent buffoons couldn't take a piss without tripping over their toes so let's get out the microscope (or should i say the ****ascope) and examine every ounce of their dribble.

Today was the official start of this fight as far as I am concerned. The last few months have been warm-up and practice. Staff didn't want to traverse down this path but the Bonus Brothers and the board have rung the bell.
Game on.

[Fliegenmong]

SimonBL said -

Channel 10 must have been at the other Qantas AGM. I'm disgusted at the one sided view that I just saw on Perth news. How the news producers can sleep at night amazes me. Not one mention of the hard questions or the anger shown at the passing of the CEO's remuneration package. Sigh.

Simon I am often vilified for my love of the ABC, and often told I am a Communist left wing weirdo.....but I make fun of 'Red Kerry' when he was on, far more insidious the mass media though, I'll tell you why they sleep at night, they've no conscious, and will happily share a bottle of grange with AJ when next passing through.

I've long despised the mainstream media for their less than subtle support for the despicable acts such as were witnessed today....regrettably I've been labeled many things for just such a stance...but my conscious is clear :ok: Alan jones Janet Albrechtsen, Geoffrey Thomas Piers Ackerman Phil Gould (Well he was always a freakin' tosser but I am a QLD'er!, Ray Warren apparently as well.....cash for comment wasn't it when the Boy from JonesTown got caught out???

[Mail-man]

On the subject of media, when I click on the qantas boss gets payrise on ninemsn it redirects me to an unrelated story...... ?????

[Stiff Under Carriage]

Qantas pay wins shareholder support (http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbusiness/aap/8366779/qantas-pay-wins-shareholder-support)

[1a sound asleep]

Pretty convinced the plan is to bring Qantas to its knees. The board has the Government backing (just like 1989). Those few employees that remain will have jobs on a very different pay structure. The rest will be filled with foreign workers here on special Visas under skilled worker emergency immigration provisions. The board believes that even a $500 million loss to achieve this will be a small price to rid the unions.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Have a look at the shambles of Jetstar Pacific, it is worth a new thread.
Not surprisingly, Joyce didn't exactly have the subject front and center.
Tootle pip!!

[the rim]

let me start with I was pis$ed off with the smugness of LC and AJ and the way they controlled the meeting BUT its a numbers game and we know that and we played into their hands.
I have to agree with some posts that "the union were pretty ordinary",we came across as boof heads[Phil S was the only shining light],some might say looking like '70's BLF members.....sorry but this is how it looked to me,now we have a situation that when we turn up the heat the Gov may step in and we may get an outcome somewhat less than what we wanted.I think the good work that was done in the last 12 months has been undone at this AGM.Tread very carefully in our next move...The Rim

[Mstr Caution]

AJ stated today they are loosing $15M per week in lost REVENUE.

Is this figure in any way attributable to the "grounded" aircraft?

I would consider that aircraft for sale & sitting on the ground would not be generating revenue. :suspect:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

If anyone thinks that today was anything other than an opportunity to vent your spleen that would be a mistake. You weren't going to convince the Board to change their decisions with well structured arguments. Some anger needed to be expressed or the newspapers would have written about a satisfied group of shareholders who warmly accepted the Boards direction. As much as you may not have liked my aggressive line of questioning, I was not there to make friends. Who knows, they may have even been baited into breaking the corporations act.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

I'm sorry Mr Woodward but the $500M Qantas made is not a good result as you've alluded to. And anyone who thinks a 4% return on investment is acceptable is delusional.

Investors are better off putting their money on the bank than investing in the airline.

And for the resolutions - well, over 90% voted in favour...

[StallBoy]

The big surprise to me is that QANTAS has lasted this long after the dixon years:ugh:. The biggest joke on qantas was putting a leprechaun in charge of the airline:{ when a Smurf or Womble would have been a much smarter choice:ok:, what a looney country australia has become:(

[Fliegenmong]

Steve -

. "Some anger needed to be expressed or the newspapers would have written about a satisfied group of shareholders"

We've already been told mainstream media chose to report it otherwise

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

It depends what paper you read. HS or Tele will always slag off workers. Others tend to run both sides of a story.

[1a sound asleep]

Qantas will now use the AGM. Watch out for new ads in the press explaining to the public that the company now has the support of the shareholders. Watch them turn the heat up even more. Sadly, the misinformation will start swaying public sentiment. Joe average wont care

To Joe Average Qantas is no longer important. To him all the other airlines are as safe or safer than Qantas (with all those engines blowing up). Qantas is too expensive so Joe flies Jetstar. Joe forgets that Qantas is made up of workers, just like him. And Joe's been told all these Qantas workers earn heaps more than him so why should he care?

[600ft-lb]

Ask the following questions of yourselves;
-Who are the institutional investors ?
-Where do they get their money from ?
-Why do they vote the way they do ?
-Where is your superannuation invested in ?
-Suggest your superannuation fund vote in the interest of those whose weekly/fortnightly/monthly cash additions employs them.

and

Be prepared for next year

[AWB_Clerk]

The biggest joke on qantas was putting a leprechaun in charge of the airlinehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif when a Smurf or Womble would have been a much smarter choicehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif, what a looney country australia has becomehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif


I know of a perfect candidate:

PicPaste - 5854982be728d6ad9110d5bc440e8e61.JPG (http://picpaste.com/5854982be728d6ad9110d5bc440e8e61.JPG)


AWBC

[LT Selfridge]

The owners of the company, and the hidden hand of globalists have spoken. The owners approve of the current strategy overwhelmingly.

Plutarch - 'The armies separated; and, it is said, Pyrrhus replied to one that gave him joy of his victory that one more such victory would utterly undo him. For he had lost a great part of the forces he brought with him, and almost all his particular friends and principal commanders; there were no others there to make recruits, and he found the confederates in Italy backward. On the other hand, as from a fountain continually flowing out of the city, the Roman camp was quickly and plentifully filled up with fresh men, not at all abating in courage for the loss they sustained, but even from their very anger gaining new force and resolution to go on with the war.'

Greek Myth - 'The next day, Midas, woke up eager to see if his wish would become true. He extended his arm touching a small table that immediately turned into gold. Midas jumped with happiness! He then touched a chair, the carpet, the door, his bathtub, a table and so he kept on running in his madness all over his palace until he got exhausted and happy at the same time! He sat at the table to have breakfast and took a rose between his hands to smell its fragrance. When he touched it, the rose became gold. "I will have to absorb the fragrance without touching the roses, I suppose," he thought in disappointment. Without even thinking, he ate a grape but it also turned into gold! The same happened with a slice of bread and a glass of water. Suddenly, he started to sense fear.'

Judges 16:29 - 'And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood, and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left.'

Don't reward the 'owner's' decision - let them reap what they have sown and hold your heads high.

[TIMA9X]

let them reap what they have sown and hold your heads high. Well said, they can't say they weren't told today. I was shocked by the arrogance displayed from the stage. As a small time shareholder it saddened me to see what the Qantas staff have to put up with just by listening to the way these people speak..:ugh:

Here is a piece from the AGM, sorry for the quality but the sound is OK..

e3Cy-nXzzh8

Plus Lateline's version of events for those who missed it.

CZgEnMHoDiM



.

[clotted]

Well, where to next?
The senate select collect committee fizzed; the campaign at the AGM fizzed; Messrs Purvinas,Sheldon,White, Somerville and Jackson couldn't lay a glove on them; all votes showing approx 96-98% in favour and the rest against or abstaining gave clear indication of where the backing of the shareholders really lies - employees using their handful of free shares counted for nought; an 85 year old raving eccentric is the noisiest of the non union shareholder representatives to speak; Jackson should have gone to bed after working all night and let Woodward do the talking because his bumbling rambling speech with all its ums and ahs and his failed smart ar$e point to Clifford about turning left instead of right or was it right instead of left when he boards an aircraft might have made its mark if he didn't get his aircraft and seating classes screwed up; at least the man from the ASA sounded considered and articulate - he came across as one who had carefully considered all of his questions and points and was able to put them across succintly not that it made any difference to the votes and he made the union talking heads look as though they'd been to the same debating school as Anthony Mundine and a number of rugby league players attended.
Where to next? Being buoyed by the cheering classes on this forum and others just won't do it. It's like being told by your father that you played well and "done good" to encourage you when in reality you had a shocker of a game.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

A quick review of clotted's posts will reveal which way he voted yesterday.

[clotted]

Well Steve, if that is representatative of the quality and accuracy of your predictions of outcomes, it's no wonder your campaign is where it is.
My reading of it puts you in the same boat as Brain McCarthy/AFAP, BernieWillingale/NSW Train Drivers/, Pat Mackie/AWU Mt Isa mines, Coombes from the Wharfies, various names from the coal miners unions, various names from the bus drivers unions, Norm Gallagher/Vic BLF. All had a few victories along the way but in the end pulled the tail of the tiger once too often and they and their members ended in tears so to speak. The union leaders ended up in oblivion.

[fdr]

After all of the smoke and noise has been removed from the scene, the task at hand remains the same; how to manage the fratricide being conducted by management against it's staff while achieving the change necessary to compete in a mature industry that has arguably achieved zero average economic value state.

The continued proposal to offshore the program to SEA given the evidence of Jetstar Pacific's performance raises concern of whether the current management has any additional play in the game book other than that indicated to be a failure; doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results was characterised by Einstein as being an indication of insanity.

QFA has both weaknesses and strengths in competing in the global market, but the current state of affairs is going to erode any strengths that remain. The timeframe for a successful resolution to the impasse of the current management and the workforce is probably critical insofar as the loss of goodwill is going to be corrosive over the medium term. (The less said about the short term the better...)

Continuing the existing position will result in severe damage to QFA, accepting the managements faulty program to become a Singapore airline instead of an australian one is provably value losing, and the final remedy remains an LBO of the airline, and a sacking of the upper management and board.

Alternatively, departing the fix is a really good idea. The opportunities for employment in other companies is variable over time, and the fallout of the industrial activity will retain some stench for future employment.

This is your company, decide if it is worth fighting for. The 28th October should stand as testament that no one else is going to fix your problem for you, your staff need to get proactive, and the timing is critical.

good luck.


PS: How fortunate is Virgin, to first have Ansett management, and then Qantas management. Wow, Kerry Packer said you only get one Bond in your life, apparently Virgin is far more fortunate than the late Kerry was... :)

[simsalabim]

Great question from Steve : Why are politicians given gifts of I pads and Penfolds Grange ?. Joyce's response i.e. "we give all our high value customers gifts it's what all airlines do ..........." seems to forget one essential point. The Australian tax payer pays for the politicians tickets. When the politicians start paying for their own seats they may be entitled to the companys largesse.

[SimonBl]

A good sum up of the AGM proceedings from Ben Sandilands at 'Plane Talking':

Qantas, unions engage in fiery shareholder meeting in Sydney | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/10/28/qantas-agm-if-only-they-had-locked-the-doors-for-as-long-as-it-took-to-settle-the-disputes/)

[MooneyManiac]

Sad to say, the public at large really don't care about Qantas as much as the unions or Qantas would like to think. There is adequate competition both domestically and internationally for the travelling public to shrug its collective shoulders and choose another airline. I'm not siding with anyone here, but the dispute has much more relevance and consequence for the parties involved - the public are, by and large, disinterested.
That said, Qantas has to come up with a more efficient business model otherwise it won't survive. I'm not convinced enough people apart from the main players care if Qantas survives or not. If they don't, it'll be sad, but the void will be filled, life will go on. The displaced workers and management will likely get jobs with the Qantas replacement, probably at a significantly lower rate of pay.
Alan Joyce's pay rise announcement at this difficult stage of proceedings was an apalling lack of judgement at best and unbelievably stupid and insensitve at worst.
The Union's call for job security and a pay rise is equally apalling and, to be frank, unrealistic.
This is a situation from which there will be no real winners, except maybe in the longer term, the travelling public. :cool:

[DutchRoll]

......all votes showing approx 96-98% in favour

I had no doubt at all that's way it would pan out, though I wish it were different.

It's the power of institutional investor votes, versus the common/garden variety shareholder. Look at the breakdown and you realise why the percentages are the way they are.

That, and of course the fact that the institutional investors look at it from a very narrow viewpoint. If Qantas sacked 35,000 workers tomorrow and upped and moved its entire operations to Myanmar under a special deal with the ruling military Junta, it wouldn't bother the institutions in the slightest as long as Joyce told them it was all cool and Qantas would be highly profitable once he could farm out all the unskilled jobs to child labour. $ is the bottom line for institutions, nothing else.

Heck even if Qantas went bankrupt the institutions aren't going to lose too much sleep. They'll carve up the assets, sell them to get a few cents back in the dollar, and move on. It wasn't their personal money. It's other people's money, savings, super, etc.

Cynical eh? That's what listening to Australian business-person like yourself does to an average person.

[Buster Hyman]

Joyce had a real opportunity to take the moral high ground with this pay rise. He could have played the victim of the 'nasty union types' and foregone his boost in income saying things like 'For the good of the company & to set an example...' blah, blah, blah...but he chose the money.

He's just given the unions free ammunition...beggars belief! I had no real say or opinion in the current industrial action. QF isn't high on my interests, but after that vote went through...stick it up 'em!:mad:

[maggot]

'dark leadership'


....

[ga_trojan]

Sad to say, the public at large really don't care about Qantas as much as the unions or Qantas would like to think.

Until they get onto their flight from Sydney to Melbourne and hear that the captain is Full Car Park and the FO is We Doping and they have difficultly communicating in English with the cabin crew. I think they'll care then but by that stage it will be to late.

[Hugh Mungous]

Re above post.. and the aircraft they are sitting on, recently released from a third party maintenance provider, hasn't been inspected by an engineer for 2 days... I find it hard to see how "the travelling public will be the winner in the long term".

This is a situation from which there will be no real winners, except maybe in the longer term, the travelling public.

[Led Zep]

GT wrote his usual :yuk: in The West today.

[unionist1974]

Oh how times have changed in the course of a weekend . None so blind as those that did not see the lock out coming . And they think they are soooooo smart . MMMMMMMMMMM

[TIMA9X]

IeM8PxgUIbc

Well now some time has passed, I find it interesting to look at the AGM and what was said considering Joyce grounded the airline the next day. It feels like it was months ago. In reality, a lot has happened in three weeks. Go Jack Tilburn, for those who missed it!

CZgEnMHoDiM
.

[gobbledock]

Australia's Highest Paid CEOs


(Article from Yahoo, my picture)

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/10/30/1226180/884794-leigh-clifford-and-alan-joyce.jpg

Despite volatile market conditions and a shaky global economy, Australia's CEO salaries keep on getting bigger.
Our top 300 listed companies paid their leaders an average of $2.33 million, which is up from $2.25 million last year according to data from the Australian Financial Review.
The research showed that the increase in CEO salaries was largely driven by an 11 per cent increase in annual bonuses.
With the share market sinking some 16 per cent since April, shareholders could be forgiven for not being happy with the CEO salary increase. Unlike previous years however, shareholders finally have some bite thanks to the new two-strikes rule coming into effect.
The new legislation means that if 25 per cent of shareholders reject two consecutive executive remuneration reports, a resolution is triggered to dump the board, and if this resolution is supported by 50 per cent of voters the full board is forced into a re-election.

Joyce was number 38 for 2011, and next year????
Company: Qantas
Base, Super & Benefits: $2,292,000
Bonuses: $2,716,000
Total Remuneration: $5,008,000 (71.27% increase from last year)
Shareholder Return: -16.4%

[hotnhigh]

The 2012 Annual General Meeting of Qantas Airways Limited will be held at 11:00am on Friday 2 November 2012 in the National Ballroom at Hotel Realm, 18 National Circuit, Barton, Australian Capital Territory.

I wonder how Jack Tilburn will go this year?
I hope he can remain calm and deliver some of the questions he wants answered,....... without imploding.:ok:
Good luck Jack.

[virgindriver]

I wouldn't be booking Qantas to travel November 3rd then. :)

[73to91]

I wouldn't be booking Qantas to travel November 3rd then.

Big day at Flemington for the Derby, virgindriver, they are stupid but not that stupid.

[ohallen]

Guess they are only expecting pollies, bureaucrats, CASA and ATSB to attend are they? Wonder if AFP will supervise this time as well. Cannot wait for the headline a few days out.

These guys are just so transparent as to how they think, it has become a very boring mind game.

[gobbledock]

http://hfgapps.hubb.com/asxtools/imageChart.axd?TF=D6&TIMA1=0&TIMA2=0&s=QAN

[Shark Patrol]

My prediction going forward:

Blog entry: 12th February, 2016 – Chief Pilot International (South-east Region, daylight operations):

Hi everybody.

With the news yesterday that British Airways, Air France/KLM, Lufthansa, JAL, Cathay Pacific and American Airlines have all filed for bankruptcy, I would like to assure you that Qantas remains in a sound position and that our alliance with Emirates has ensured that we will remain as a strong and viable business going forward.

Because of these developments, and out of our desire to provide our passengers with a seamless, premium travel experience, Emirates has agreed to operate our services to Los Angeles, New York, Tokyo, Johannesburg, Santiago, Hong Kong and London with some of their 2,500 A380 aircraft. Our CEO, Simon Hokey is absolutely thrilled by these developments and feels that the Qantas brand will only be strengthened as a result. Group CEO Designate Jane Hard-Liquor praised the outgoing CEO for his visionary approach and “fourteen pillar plan” to success that has resulted in the share price spiralling to $1.02 in recent days.

Unfortunately for line pilots, this means that there will be yet another increase in the pilot surplus to 1,800. Rest assured however, that we will continue to manage this surplus with assigned indefinite LSLWOP and a reduced divisor of 10 hours per bid period (subject to AIPA approval). To provide certainty for our pilots, our new DCUWCY protocol will provide you with at least 12 months notice of your next duty so that you can renew your CASA medical and complete the necessary study for your 1 hour simulator session (subject to CASA approval) prior to being cleared back to the line. For those wishing to take LWOP to seek other short-term opportunities, we can advise that Jetstar Bangladesh will be interviewing applicants next month and that its fleet of 65 A319s should be operating by January next year (subject to regulatory approval). Simon was so excited by this development that he had to go onto medication. As soon as Qantas Mainline becomes profitable again, we will take delivery of our new fuel-efficient Boeing 797-13 Solar Electric Supergliders and, subject to contractual arrangements, mainline pilots may well experience services to new destinations such as Cairns, Adelaide, Perth and the Gold Coast.

The other significant development for this blog is that we are expecting FWA to hand down its final, binding decision today on the series of appeals that the Company lodged against their original determination back in 2012. Our lawyers have argued strenuously that a decision to award pilots’ with backdated backpay will now result in a payment being made that will exceed Qantas’s current cash reserves. The segmentation of the Company into 25 reporting business units (each with their own management teams) has been essential to the company’s viability going forward and management consider the $1.5 billion one-off restructuring costs to be money well spent. Fortunately, Jetstar has made a profit of $1.6 billion dollars with its fleet of 5 B787s and Simon was so excited by the news that he had to be physically restrained.

Finally, I would like to remind all International (South-east Region, daylight operations) pilots that your engagement levels in the last survey were cause for concern and that the three of you will be programmed for the next PWC course “Trust Us, We’ll Look After You” sometime in the next 12 months (subject to the DCUWCY protocol).

Cheers
I had thought of posting this on Qrewroom, but didn't want it to be mistaken for a real blog entry.

Please feel free to add your predictions for our mighty company into the future.

[aveng]

Further announcement on the new "glider" maintenance program.

Following an extensive bidding process, the Easa approved 145 maintenance facility will be "Sanjay's world of bikes & aircraft maintenance". This fully equipped facility in Mumbai has been described as world class, by Qantas management.

[crwkunt roll]

Didn't have any reference to the former CEO who went missing 3 years before and hasn't been seen since.

[clark y]

Aveng, all bicycle shops are actually approved to do any aircraft maintenance nowadays (2016 A.D.). The aviation authorities have stated that as all aircraft can ultimately be attributed to bicycle men (Wilbur and Orville), then any bicycle manufacture and repair shop can maintain any aircraft.

[Wally Mk2]

..................in the immortal words of one famous Aussie...."tell 'em he's dreamin'!:-)

By 2016 we'll be lucky to have any aviation industry thanks to ALL govt's past & present here in downgraded Oz
.
God 'elp the children of 2moro as corruption is running now out of control in ALL sectors of our life!


Wmk2

[spelling_nazi]

It's ok we've nothing to worry about Alan has signed the "joint commitment" pledge .

[Shark Patrol]

Yeah ... and Hitler signed Chamberlain's peace accord too!

[Mstr Caution]

Am I missing something here?

AJ locked out his staff & sent the EBA negotiations to arbitration and stated he wanted the management "right" to run the business.

And now he wants a "joint commitment" as to how to manage his labour.

:ugh:

[DirectAnywhere]

Fair dinkum, that looks like something my primary school aged kids would come up with.

Only a consultant could produce such utter BS. How much is all this costing? What an absolute joke.

[Conductor]

There is only one way forward to regain trust and rebuild the airline.

1. New CEO
2. New Chairman
3. New Board.


I call it the 3-pillar plan. Anything else means nothing.

[fishers.ghost]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/377650_444320078972670_1617454828_n.jpg

[fishers.ghost]

PWC charged $10mill for this little gem

[The The]

With male appendages stuck in either ends of the scroll. I think both sides are really just saying "Joint Commitment? $%&# that idea!"

[600ft-lb]

Re the "joint commitment", its the ol' 1 arm brings you closer in, the other has a knife ready to stick in your back when you're not looking.

[Conductor]

I think it is instructive that the word engagment (sic) isn't even spelled correctly.

[DirectAnywhere]

And we haven't been effcient (also sic) for years apparently.

Commas and full stops appear either to be optional or to be inserted where not required.

[SOPS]

Who wrote this thing?

[Keg]

Those who attended the PWC facilitated day. It's come from both line pilots and management. There is a nice summation of it on Qrewroom and there is also a couple of nice responses.

From my perspective we can keep banging on about what's happened in the past or we can let it go and work towards the future. The CEO has his plans and there is very little that any of us can do to change them. Whilst I don't agree with everything on the parchment, I'd be interested as to what the wisdom of PPRUNE sees as the alternative. The CEO isn't going to resign or be sacked. The Chairman isn't going to resign or be sacked. The board is going to remain. So again, what does the PPRUNE world think the alternatives are to jumping into the deep end of the pool and swimming as hard as we can?

[Gingerbread]

The only way anyone gets the authority to change the Strategy, Leadership and the Direction of any corporation is with majority shareholder control.

That GD et.al sought to obtain it by collaboration and they couldn’t, should make clear just how hard it is to achieve.

Contested shareholder control is sometimes achieved by determined shareholder activists and/or united employees working in conjunction with finance, but not aware of employees getting to control a publically listed company in Australia.

[Conductor]

Those who attended the PWC facilitated day. It's come from both line pilots and management. There is a nice summation of it on Qrewroom and there is also a couple of nice responses.

From my perspective we can keep banging on about what's happened in the past or we can let it go and work towards the future. The CEO has his plans and there is very little that any of us can do to change them. Whilst I don't agree with everything on the parchment, I'd be interested as to what the wisdom of PPRuNe sees as the alternative. The CEO isn't going to resign or be sacked. The Chairman isn't going to resign or be sacked. The board is going to remain. So again, what does the PPRuNe world think the alternatives are to jumping into the deep end of the pool and swimming as hard as we can?

Keg,

I agree that there is little use banging on about the past and, yes, we should all be working towards achieving the best we can for the future. However, the fact remains that Joyce/Clifford have done what they have done and some things are irreversible. The memory I carry around from the grounding cannot be erased. I am disengaged. Click. Just like everyone I fly with (and I mean every single pilot I have flown with on the 767 that I can remember). I am not delusional enough to think that the chairman and CEO will do the honourable thing and commit harikiri but whilst they remain, trust and respect remains broken. So yes, we should jump into the deep end of the pool and swim as hard as we can but looking outside the scope of the pilot body for a moment, Qantas is damaged and the people who did it are still doing it and very soon it will be broken. It's pointless applying first aid while the patient is still being kicked.

[dragon man]

You mean a bandaid to a fractured skull!!!

[Keg]

...but whilst they remain, trust and respect remains broken.

Sure. I agree. Part of me feels like saying 'f$*k you Joyce, Clifford, et al' but that's not going to get me/ us anywhere. For better or for worse (and let's be honest, the last few years have been undoubtedly for the worse), Joyce, Clifford et al are the only game in town for Qantas pilots.

So here we are. Would I like to have better leaders? Sure. Would I like to have things humming like they were 2000-2006? You bet. They're not though.

For mine, I'm not going to expend any more energy thinking/ feeling/ saying 'f@#k you Joyce' irrespective of whether they deserve it or not. I'm simply letting that go and moving on. I'm going to control the things I can and work hard at doing the things I can. That means I'll keep busting my gut to make Qantas successful not only because I'm a professional but because my future depends on it. If that means that sometimes I have to take a good dose of 'cabinet solidarity' and adhere/ do something that I don't particularly agree with (not talking abdicating command responsibilities/ safety here), then that's where I'm at. Yes that makes Joyce and Strambi and the rest of them hit their KPIs and look like geniuses and they'll claim credit for our hard work. The world has ever been thus.

Again I'll ask, what are our other options?

PS: I know from long experience how difficult it is to get 'tone' right in written form. I'm trying very hard to avoid coming across as argumentative and apologise if some comments seem that way. I'm not advocating a Neville Chamerlain 'peace in our time' approach either. It's a genuinely interesting discussion how we choose to respond to this PWC thing and what we do from here. My comments should be read in that context.

[Going Boeing]

The damage that Clifford and Joyce have done is immense and that fact that Joyce signed the parchment does not mean that he is changing direction. He is continuing to dismantle Qantas (Frankfurt & Uluru are 2 examples) so there is no advantage to the pilot body "re-engaging" as the outcome will be the same, ie, No Career!

Our Fleet managers have lost their integrity by supporting the litany of lies coming from senior management and now PWC want the captains to lose their integrity by trying to persuade more junior pilots to re-engage. It's not going to happen as, in the words of a former AIPA President,
"Integrity is like Virginity - once it's lost, it's lost forever".

[Stalins ugly Brother]

Qantas senior management have no integrity,

They don't get my trust,

And I will not be engaged,

Until Joyce and Clifford are gone.....


Only then can we start to build a new relationship as a group with he company. :ok:

The shutting down of this once great company won't be forgotten until the ones responsible pay the price and fall on their sword.

[ohallen]

The problem is if you forget the past, you sanction what they have done. Everyone needs to work out where the future lies, but if you give an inch, this lot will push you to the next lowest level. That is the psychology of their game because they rely on having the upper hand and whilst they control the funds, they effectively do have control.

In the meantime, their game is being undermined by so called business partners who will do both lots over if it suits their purpose and they have much deeper pockets.

Sadly, there are no winners except for the business partners while the family jewels are being sold off.

[blueloo]

Keg, guess that new spirit is working well. The new line in the sand is your lunch allowance being denied I see.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

You can build your friendship with Joyce and his accomplices as much as you like. You can build plans together (as long as it is what they want) and watch as the airline is destroyed. There is no future with the current people there.

I like the 3-pillar plan.

[Keg]

The problem is if you forget the past, you sanction what they have done.

I'm not advocating forgetting the past. Quite the contrary. What I am doing is moving on from it. There are lessons to be learned- lessons that we may well need to heed in the medium term- but don't mistake my comments please for thinking that all is forgotten.

Blueloo, yes. An admin person said 'no'. Not first admin type to make a bad call, won't be the last. I'm not going to let his lack of understanding detract from everything that is still good about this airline and most of its people.

[hotnhigh]

With leadership there is integrity, where there is integrity, there is trust.
Joyce, Clifford and the actions of the board demonstrated clearly their failings in all of those attributes. They will never have an appreciation of those points and that is why qantas is where it's at....
I suppose one is grateful that today is one day closer to when Clifford and Joyce depart, as opposed to yesterday. Not that there will be too much left.

[Taildragger67]

until the ones responsible pay the price and fall on their sword.

... which they will not do as they think they are right.

There is no future with the current people there.

That's possibly true Steve but they are there and show no signs of budging.

[waren9]

but because my future depends on it.

Keg

That bit I disagree with.

[Lookleft]

I thought at first that the scroll was a clever cartoon someone on Prune had developed but to my amazement it is the actual document! I like how QF management have conveniently applied half the blame to the pilots with the use of the term "industrial action" when AIPAs strategy was to not target the company financially. I think if management acknowledged that the airline shutdown was reckless and premeditated then the issue of trust would be a bit more sincere. I understand the sentiment expressed by Keg but to put a historical context to the situation even the West had to come to the conclusion that Stalin was a tyrant and could not be trusted no matter what he said.

[ampclamp]

"I thought at first that the scroll was a clever cartoon someone on Prune had developed but to my amazement it is the actual document!"

Is that fair dinkum? Is that what it really is and how it is presented?
I thought someone was taking the piss too.:eek:

[Ka.Boom]

Welcome to Airline Management romper Room.No wonder we're in trouble

[Just Relaxin]

It seems some of the popular press may finally have caught on to the folly of the Qantas - Emirates tieup and how it will affect Qantas passengers travelling to Europe.

The following link is to an article on page 11 of today's SMH where the effect of the long transit in Dubai is at last explained.

Qantas travellers could be left waiting in the wings (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-travellers-could-be-left-waiting-in-the-wings-20130222-2ewrc.html)

Is it any wonder Qantas did not reply!

[ramius315]

It's not folly, it's deliberate.

Pax will opt to fly EK, QF will say the route isn't profitable, EK will get QF's LHR slots.

Win-win. ( For EK.)

:}

[600ft-lb]

It's pretty easy to work out that people won't be waiting at an airport for 8 hours when they don't have to. Qantas used to have SIN and HKG as hubs for onward journeys to LHR. So now we have no feeding flights from any other city in OZ to DXB and just the SYD and MEL flights only. The only people who will be booking the QF flights are the ones who want to go to LHR only. The other destinations being touted as the big plus are a free pass to EK.

No wonder EK jumped at the deal. QF will sell tickets for them. QF will give EK access to the frequent flyer bank. QF won't even have the ability to compete with EK for ALL of the feeding traffic out of Australia.

LHR only!

The most heavily contested route in the world.

golf clap AJ

[weighman]

As a FF from Perth to Frankfurt, the choices with the new arrangement has improved my travel options immensely.

My family have travelled Emirates and can't compliment them enough.

I remember when the AFAP had aviation by the "short & curlies" before 89.
That was the turning point for the travelling public and this will be a similar event.

[Jackneville]

Look at the ticket price for DBX/LHR with QF, they can't give the seats away.......I reckon they should just give the whole Europe gig up and redeploy those 380s on the Pacific where they can still make money.

[OneDotLow]

Jackneville,
I'm not sure where you are searching your ticket prices, but I've just put in 3 random date searches post 1 April and each has listed QF ticket prices almost twice the lowest prices. Among those airlines "giving it away" cheaper are Gulf, Etihad, Egypt, Qatar, Royal Jordanian, Saudi, Turkish, Kuwait and Air India. Obviously most of these are not direct DXB-LHR, but I'd hardly say QF are giving the seats away.

[Captain Gidday]

I remember when the AFAP had aviation by the "short & curlies" before 89.
That was the turning point for the travelling public and this will be a similar event.

Will somebody take this bloke out the back and tell him a few home truths?
Meanwhile, you might as well rename this the Uneducated Idiots Forum, as I'm pretty sure the last Professional Pilots just left the building!
Bye all.