Geoffery Thomas...again

[blueloo]

At it again on Sunrise.

[roundaboutway]

I wonder how much he is getting paid by Q management!!
Probably ties in with the relationship Sunrise has with 1star. :yuk:

[Crusty Demon]

Ok Geoff. If you are interested in reporting correct facts, please PM me and I will provide you with my payslips, rosters and group certificate. It will show you exactly how distorted the facts are that your QF management mates supply you with. If you get this info from me, perhaps you will see that I made less than people at other Australian carriers, yet my duty hours were within a whisker. But would that suit your agenda?

I hope you are proud of your spin this morning. Perhaps I should quote the highest paid journalist, or manager responsible for editing, and launch a campaign claiming that is what you get paid, and therefore how overpaid and undeserving you certainly are.

You are contributing to the destruction of peoples lives here. Hope you are proud. Being an aviation expert must make you the highest paid journalist no doubt.

Thankyou for your contribution to Australian Aviation. That segment this morning has just made it so much better.

[Air Ace]

He is entitled to an opinion and I can respect that. Not all Australians agree with the employees and Unions.

However, I suspect the majority of Australians that care about the future of our national airlines see through the QF spin and now sympathise with the employees. At the very least, they expect QF to address and resolve the issues and whilst the industrial unrest continues QF management will continue to lose public support.

Dubious claims and comments by QF managers and pro QF journalists are not helping Qantas managements cause.

Obscene executive salaries, the threat of mass staff redundancies, talk of new overseas airlines with a non Australian workforce and no share dividend for two years will not be going unnoticed by the Australian public. It would be a very brave or stupid executive that proceeds with mass redundancies in the current climate.

[hotnhigh]

Memo to Geoff.
Would you phone my wife and explain where the missing $100+ grand is from my pay packet. And likewise, happy to supply the group certificate and payslips that show my pay doesn't start with a 2,3,4, or 5 for that matter.
And the 1 in front doesn't indicate a mill either.

Also, next time would you compare virgin 737 pilots with qantas 737 pilots wages. You know, like for like.
And it would also be nice if you compared Cathay, Singapore and Emirates figures, just for the sense of balance.
PS call AIPA to get the figures. You might be surprised how far out of accuracy your 50% pay anomaly is. (Must be that dodgy calculator Alan gave you.)

[Going Boeing]

I think GT saw how well others did with "Cash for comment" so he's trying to get a slice of the pie for himself.

It's bad enough when you have journos mis-reporting the facts to please their sponsor but for a supposed "industry expert" to be sprouting such lies shows that there is a lot of influence and money being wielded here.

[Worrals in the wilds]

I believe that people are getting increasingly sceptical about 'experts' on the telly, whether the issue is health, science, finance, industry or otherwise.

After years of shonky advertising campaigns using the 'experts recommend' chestnut, a few big and costly finance scandals (such as Storm) and the whole climate change debacle (and without getting into the theory itself, CC is now being used as an example of a science PR debacle in at least one scientific ethics university course that I know of), I think the word is becoming a major turn off.

Comments like 'Oh great, another 'expert.' What did they pay you this time?', are increasingly part of lunch room commentary, on whatever issue is being subjected to the 'expert' treatment at the time.

[ejectx3]

Anyone know where to find link to watch his latest claptrap?

[ohallen]

This was a soft interview which was FULLY supported by comments from David Koche, so don't think for a moment it did not have the impact it was designed to have.

Simple message brought down to the lowest level of detail continuing to ram home the theme this is about money.

The rat continues to win the PR war in my view because there is just so little counter view in the public domain. Yes they use dodgy calculators and so called experts who fail to disclose any conflicts, but they keep getting away with it.

I also see no evidence that the public are seeing through the Rat spin. They see a dispute that they want no part of and just want it sorted.

You run the risk of achieving the level of disengagement that has now been reached by Labour Party...everyone knows they are gone and nobody cares about the issues any more.

I hope I am wrong.

[fender]

What concerns me is that anyone is watching that retarded morning show at all.
It is a children show made for bogans. It's an embarrassment to watch and by not watching it and telling everyone you know how childish it is makes more sense to me than giving it your rating. Switch off, it hurts them more.

[SeldomFixit]

Ohallen - this Sunrise piece was without question a scripted piece.
Thomas is a self styled, journo perpetutated industry expert.
What Sunrise should do - if it had the balls and it certainly doesn't, is ask industry professionals just what level of industry expert Thomas is considered to be.
The man has no credence outside the Chairman's Club yet the bucket and spade brigade will treat his comments as the blueberries atop their morning Sunrise brekky.
Mr Thomas - go away please.

[Worrals in the wilds]

What concerns me is that anyone is watching that retarded morning show at all.Good point. I think the bulk of the audience is half watching it with a coffee in one hand and Outlook Calendar in the other, waiting for the weather, traffic report and salacious goss about Warney or Prince Harry. Like ACA/TN, it's one of those infotainment shows masquerading as news that should be made to broadcast the warning: High Fat Content, May Contain Traces Of Nuts. :}

[UnderneathTheRadar]

I didn't see it nor do I have the evidence available to contradict but you might find that
Media Watch (ABC TV) (http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/) is exactly the right way of putting your side of the story.

After the pokies/NRL/9 stuff from last week, its the kind of story they'd be right into.

UTR

[Slippery_Pete]

To "Aviation Expert" Geoffrey Thomas,

We know you frequent PPrune, so you are probably reading this right now.

How about you show a shred of journalistic integrity and answer a few questions for us:

1. Have you contacted Steve P and tried to obtain accurate wage information indepedently?
2. Will you take up the offer of several Pprune members and obtain a copy of their group certificates?
3. What exactly are the arrangements between the sunrise show and Qantas PR?
4. If you actually did some independent research and asked channel 7 if you could present factual information which happened to not be pro-QF management, would they allow it?
5. If not, would they allow Steve P on the sunrise show to give the other side of the story?
6. If they wouldn't allow it, does this indicate one-sided journalism (ie essentially advertising)?
7. As a so-called "journalist", isn't it your call of duty that accurate information is presented rather than reproduction of company PR spin?
8. How often do you fly Qantas?
9. Did you obtain Qantas Club membership through accrual of points like everyone else, or was it gifted?
10. How often do you fly Virgin?
11. Are you deeply familiar with the skill sets required and working conditions for Qantas pilots and engineers (ie changing a bleed valve on an aircraft parked at the terminal overnight, 3am in the morning by torchlight in sub zero temperatures)?
12. When was the last time you sat down with a Qantas pilot or engineer for a few hours and asked them about their jobs?
13. If you aren't intricately aware of their jobs, how can you possibly comment on how much they are worth?
14. In wage comparisons, why don't you compare apples with apples - ie other international airlines like Emirates/Cathay - rather than other low cost domestic carriers.
15. How would you like it if I jumped on national TV and called you overpaid when in fact I have no idea how much you are paid or what your job entails?

Thanking you in advance for an ACCURATE and speedy reply.

[Long Bay Mauler]

And don't forget that one of the main reasons we are amongst the highest paid in the world is because of the current state of the Aussie dollar.

Only a few years ago, places like Emirates , Singapore, Malaysian, etc , were all paying up to 40% more than Qantas, all because of the currency exchange. And if the Aussie dollar falls in six months time, then so will the reason of Aussies being the highest paid in the world.

This is probably one reason Qantas feels that it has to push this wage dispute right now, because in 6 to 12 months from now, the Aussie dollar will be back down around 70 odd US Cents, and if they win, Qantas staff wages and costs will be significantly lower than present.

Geoffrey, do you have a work email or telephone contact, as you don't seem to have any point of contact when googled?

[Redpanda]

[email protected]

[beechie]

I liked what Alan was quoted in an article saying yesterday.

Something along the lines of A380 Captains are the highest paid employee per hour in QF. $380,000 for 460 hours work was the figure.

I am guessing that the 460 hours is flight hours? And obviously that all pilots do. They would be not preparing flights, travelling to hotels, sim sessions etc etc

9 hours of work a week. Sign me up!

[Ngineer]

Every time an interview like this is aired I always have one (or several) people I know ask me what I think.

When I inform them of the facts the answer is always "I thought so". Without fail.

[Slippery_Pete]

AJ, how is that faulty calculator going?

460 hours = about 1000 duty hours.

380k/1000 hours = $380 an hour

You now earn $5million per year.

That's 5,000,000 / 380 per hour = 13,157 hours per year you supposedly work.

That's 253 hours per week, yet a week only has 168 hours. :D

Even if the numbers are based on flight time (not duty time which is absurd), you still claim to work 17 hours per day - what an absolute lie.

[bandit2]

Sounds like Geoff just got his Xmas holiday organized with 2 1/2 minutes on Sunrise.

[denabol]

Compare that with this.

Qantas game plan under pressure as more strikes loom | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/10/11/some-questions-about-the-qantas-game-plan/)

Can't stand Sunrise. Being schreeched at by David Koch on speed don't work for me over brekky.

[Cactusjack]

Geoffrey Thomas ? More like a 'John Thomas'.
Geoffrey, your reports are complete and utter ****e. Pretty much everything you utter about aviation (when it comes to fact) should be dried out and used as fertilizer around Mascot's hub of excellence.

You are a tosspot, a complete nupty and your on air pieces are about as interesting as Joyce's double chin or Worthless manly eye brows.

[K9P]

Hey Geoff,
I'm a LAME working under an Qantas EBA, would you like to make up the difference in what I actually earn and what you claim that a LAME earns?

[breakfastburrito]

Folks, go easy on the insults to protect your OWN ass. Lawyers and defamation proceedings could be a wealth hazard.

[victor two]

Typical union response. You guys can play as dirty as you like, call strikes, tell lies, cancel strikes at the last second, disrupt the public, call on the public NOT to use your own services but you still are thin-skinned cry babies when you get a bit back. Pathetic little sheep being led blindly along by a couple of union meat-heads on the promise of union victory.

All you have done is confirm to the public that you are overpaid sooks with no work ethic. The public hates you and does not support your greed. Qantas will only benefit from your childish union spluttering so keep on going guys, keep digging yourself deeper. See how smug you are in 12 months when you you are no better off.

[le Pingouin]

Typical union response. Do not masturbate the troll. You'll get warts.

[DutchRoll]

Hmmm. Must be a very smelly, dark cave somewhere nearby.........

[somewhereat1l]

Hmmm. Must be a very smelly, dark cave somewhere nearby.........

There is: QCC at Coward Street, Mascot :ok:

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

Do you HONESTLY think Geoffery Thomas or any other journalist is on Qantas's payroll, or are you (like you do with Alan Joyce or anyone else who disagrees with your position) just attacking the man instead of the ball? :*

Either way, I suspect you're all dillusional, and I can't understand why the mods allow such drivel (and I suspect, slander) to be posted and left up for more than five minutes. :ooh:

[flyingfox]

Geoffrey Thomas doesn't even have the decency to refute the claim made by the ABC and other media organisations that he is an 'aviation expert'. He regularly and happily masquerades under that description when in fact he is a 'common or garden' newspaper journalist. To the best of my knowlege he has no aviation qualifications of any kind. Where the term originally came from is anybody's guess, but was a possibly a throw away line from an over friendly radio announcer when about to interview him. A less apt description I have never heard. Just another of the many 'ticks' hanging off aviations emaciated carcass without contributing a single positive outcome. His reporting is, in my opinion, extremely partisan and usually just a repetition of management 'spin'. In reporting aviation incidents, the tone of his reports seems to vary according to the 'company' involved. He is a 'CEO propaganda link' to the press and long term Pprune followers will no doubt have noticed his connection with one 'highly mobile' executive who has groomed his attention over many years.

[bobhoover]

FA18, in answer to your question, Yes. If you believe differently, you are one naive little boy/girl.

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

bob

:* You have no idea what I believe, what I am or what I KNOW to be fact.

I can tell you one thing, when it comes to this matter, naive ("naieve?") isn't one of them. :=

Kind of ironic that people on this forum refer to GT as a troll...pots, kettles folks! :rolleyes:

[blueloo]

FoxtrotAlpha18:

Kind of ironic that people on this forum refer to GT as a troll

You are absolutely correct. Troll is far to nice a term to describe him.

[balance]

Sounds like you are doing a little trolling yourself there, FA-18. Or are you going to tell me that these people aren't entitled to their opinions if if doesnt coincide with your ultra right wing views?

No sense shutting them down my friend, this is a discussion board, and opinons are what keeps it going.

Since we are on opinions, here's mine. Whilst I hate what is being done to Qantas and the employees, I'm not a big union person, but one must be suspect about the gross errors being made by journalists, despite an awareness that what they say is not true. One must ask, why are they seemingly biased?

We do know that GT has previously been contracted by QF, and seems to have carried a management bias for years now. This mornings effort does nothing to contradict any suspicions that one might have, does it?

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

Two pieces of irony there...

1 - you call yourself 'balance'...:hmm: :}

and...

2 - you call me right wing! :ooh: I swing from a different side of the fence thank you!

As I've said before, I have no dog in this Qantas fight, and I respect a worker's right to withhold their labour.

My comments are SOLELY directed at the slanderous, personal attacks on individuals on this forum, and NOT at who is right and who is wrong in this dispute. Wouldn't be necessary if the moderators actually moderated this forum!

:mad: outta here... forever!

[600ft-lb]

If I were a journalist and I was going to be commenting on particulars of an ongoing dispute.
1) I would take note of what party A says (They get paid $170,000 average)
2) I would take note of what party B says (No we don't)
3) I would conduct my own research http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/agreements/wpa/CAUN085259566.pdf such as here for Qantas LAME EBA 8
4) Find it very hard to come to a conclusion that party A is telling the truth when even at the highest rate of pay, plus the highest shift penalties, the figure still doesn't come close to the "AVERAGE".
5) Realise that for $170,000 to be average, a small percentage people would be earning well over the average to to counteract the fact that the vast majority don't earn anything remotely resembling the average.
6) Refer to the Journalists Code of Ethics pertinent points as below.
4. Do not allow personal interest, or any belief, commitment, payment, gift or benefit, to undermine your accuracy, fairness or independence.
5. Disclose conflicts of interest that affect, or could be seen to affect, the accuracy, fairness or independence of your journalism. Do not improperly use a journalistic position for personal gain.
6. Do not allow advertising or other commercial considerations to undermine accuracy, fairness or independence.

[DutchRoll]

FoxtrotAlpha18, chill.

Everything is getting a bit heated, then some dill comes along on the forum and throws petrol on the fire with a bit of quite flagrant trolling (and no I'm not referring to you - I think we all know who I'm talking about).

There are many angry little bunnies out there at the moment because we are seeing more and more everyday examples of the Qantas spin-machine telling quite blatant porky-pies. The sort which, if it were me telling them as a kid, would earn me several strokes of the cane handled feather-duster from my mother plus a threat that my nose would grow as long as Pinocchio's.

What then amplifies this problem is the fact that investigative journalism, or even journalistic cross-checking, has largely ceased to exist in the modern-day media. I don't know why, but it certainly has. They just regurgitate the press release, and Qantas will continue to give their PR department unlimited resources and an extremely long leash for that stuff while the dispute continues.

Then the meat in the sandwich really is Joe Public. Joe Public is sometimes (and I accept the fact that some are smart enough not to be) easily swayed by stuff he hears and reads, especially when the added influence of his own personal political biases is considered. That's just human nature when you're unaware of other surrounding facts. This becomes frustrating if you're a Qantas pilot like myself. You get phone calls from relatives asking if you really earn half a million dollars per year. Is it true that you're demanding 10 free First Class International return tickets per year, and if so, can your 2nd cousin twice removed from Widgiemooltha please have one? Can your Aunty Mary please use your free facial voucher in the Qantas First Class Lounge? And on, and on, it goes.

No-one seriously believes (I don't think) that Thomas is on the Qantas payroll. However they are entitled to be a bit peeved that he regurgitates Qantas spin without checking facts.

[ramble on]

fa18 - typical short fused knucklehead

[tail wheel]

You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.

Don't underestimate the intelligence of Australians. Our Government seems to regularly underestimate Australian opinions, as the Polls confirm.

Like any Australian, Geoff Thomas is entitled to his opinion and it should be respected as his personal opinion. History will ultimately reveal whether he is correct or not.

But his opinion is unlikely to have any real impact on the opinions of average Australians.

Posts have already been deleted in this thread. Please think before you hit the Enter key! :=

[Roger that.]

Yer, here's the link for those who haven't yet seen Geoff's latest.
Turbulent times for Qantas - Sunrise - Yahoo!7 TV (http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/video/-/watch/26884471/turbulent-times-for-qantas/)

Geoff, the 3% wage increase is inflation. It's NOT as if were asking for 71% & while we are talking CEO wages. I was reading the CEO of CX pull's about 1.6 million. Far cry from our head man. But for me, the money isn't the important part (even though I'm along way short of 170k myself). The fact that this company, in my opinion is not being run as well as it could be. Like so many people have said before. Wrong aircraft, not enough route's yada yada yada. Furthermore, if you can't see AJ wanting to outsource more and more and more until we are a shell, then you wanna get those glasses re-checked. Qantas is Australian & damm it, this is where it should stay.

Lastly Geoff and this is deadset. We've met. Stange how when you talked with me, QF bosses were the one's that were bringing our airline down. Not the staff. I remember after that chat I was thinking to myself "maybe this guy isn't an ...." Boy, was I wrong.

Next time I wanna her from an "Avaition expert" I'll be turn to Ben Sandilands.

[POT100]

Shame, Shame, Shame on you GT..
Get your facts right before you claim to be an "Aviation Expert".
I've never heard such drivel!!

And where is our Union to refute all this claims??..
I always wondered why the Australian people buy into this ****e.But with our union not refuting these claims in the media, I'm not surprised.. :ugh:

[sickofitall00]

To Geoffrey Thomas,

This time you have gone too far. My colleagues and I cringe every time you appear in print or on TV. You are propagating lies . Your lack of research and lack of integrity is now common knowledge amongst the aviation industry.
I'm not going to point out the obvious but you truly disgust me and many around me.
You actually were seated next to me at dinner a couple of weeks ago. My partner urged me to have a quiet chat with you but as it appeared you were with your wife I respected your privacy. It would be nice if you showed the many well trained professionals you slag off so regularly the same respect....
Next time I will have that chat with you. But it will not be so quiet.

[600ft-lb]

And where is our Union to refute all this claims??..
I always wondered why the Australian people buy into this ****e.But with our union not refuting these claims in the media, I'm not surprised.. Whilst I agree that claims need to be refuted and journalists need to be held to account when they hold as much power to influence public opinion as they do, BUT

Like Steve said in a radio interview, there is only so many resources available. Court cases, day to day operations, EBA negotiations as well as the fact he isn't just employed by Qantas LAME's, he is employed by industry LAME's.

Besides that, the ALAEA gets a 3 second sound bite at the most. They will never get the same air time as a corporate sponsor of the media. How many articles do you read that has the opposing view cast forth in the same light as the corporate view ?

When have you ever seen a journalist question the following;


Alan Joyce gets paid less per hour then an A380 captain.
Engineers get paid on average $170,000 a year.
Qantas pilots work 500 hours a year
Alan Joyce got paid less this year then last year.
Qantas international lost $200million.
Why was the Rolls Royce settlement not paid to the Qantas Airlines segment (The Australian Shareholders Association knows why, google it)?
Why hasn't the effect of the QF32 incident, the volcanoes shutting down airspace, the radiation in Japan etc been cast as a one off event and used as justification why Qantas isn't deserving of new aircraft?
Why did Qantas buy A380s instead of B777's ?
How did the international segment go from being the most wildly successful segment in 2006/2007 to being the 'worst performing' ?

All worthy of some investigative journalism, all will be totally ignored by journalists.

[airdualbleedfault]

Sorry Tailwheel, you are wrong. Everybody is entitled to their opinion however nobody is entitled to get on national television or any media and lie about the terms and conditions of QF employees, in fact isn't it against the law? It's the same dirty underhanded tactics Bob and marijuana fats used in '89, I still remember dear old mum calling me a glorified bus driver. They are using lies and propaganda to turn the average idiot in the street ( that voted labour, but thats a whole other issue ) against the QF people, and I'll bet you it's working.

BTW FA18, turn your yank spell check off, it is " naive "

[gobbledock]

Ok, for all the high and righteous out there who feel poor GT has been grossly slandered and is being so poorly treated I will refrain from labeling him within the confines of what I really think of him, his ethic and his journalistic ability. But what I will gladly say, and it is my democratic right is this 'your story was utter ****'. Now go get your lawyer, see if I give a flying Fu#k.

[piston broke again]

Do as I did. Email sunrise on the form on the website and let them have it. A few thousand emails can't hurt. :ok:

[Checkboard]

Media Entertainment and Arts Alliance | Code Of Ethics Breaches - How To Complain (http://www.alliance.org.au/code-of-ethics-breaches-how-to-complain)

Code Of Ethics Breaches - How To Complain

What Do You Do?

This page sets out how you can complain if you believe a journalist has acted contrary to the Code of Ethics. If you believe a journalist has breached the Code of Ethics in any way, you should lodge a written complaint stating:

the name of the journalist;
the action that you believe is unethical;
the point or points of the Code that you believe have been breached.

Once the Branch Secretary receives your letter she/he will refer it to the Judiciary Committee. The Judiciary Committee is made up of experienced journalists who are elected to the Committee every two years by members of the Journalists section of Media Entertainment and Arts Alliance in each State. The Judiciary Committees will meet to consider your complaint. They have a number of options including:

dismiss the complaint without hearing further evidence;
uphold the complaint without hearing further evidence;
ask you to provide further evidence in writing;
hold hearings on the complaint.

Media Entertainment and Arts Alliance | Media Alliance Code of Ethics (http://www.alliance.org.au/code-of-ethics.html)
Media Alliance Code of Ethics

Alliance members engaged in journalism commit themselves to

Honesty
Fairness
Independence
Respect for the rights of others

1. Report and interpret honestly, striving for accuracy, fairness and disclosure of all essential facts. Do not suppress relevant available facts, or give distorting emphasis. Do your utmost to give a fair opportunity for reply.

[apache]

yep... Just viewed it!

I cannot BELIEVE how much the QF PR machine can do!

not that he had much, but GT just lost ALL credibility in my eyes.

he is ALMOST as unbelievable as Dick Smith.... but they will continue to go to these two goons, because no-one else can/will/is allowed to talk to the press!!!!!

Farkme.... I will front the TV if need be and be your spokesman!!! I dont care about a career in Oz Aviation.

[Jack Ranga]

FA-18,

It's a pity you've gone, you might have learnt a thing or two.


My comments are SOLELY directed at the slanderous, personal attacks on individuals on this forum


Slanderous? Doubt it, most of Geoff Thomas's comments can be proven to be lies, easy peasy.

Personal attacks? So what, he's a big boy, if you are going to put yourself out there as an 'expert' and you are clearly not you've got to expect a bit of argy bargy?

[balance]

Good luck with your fight chaps.

Thanks.

I can see the angst GT has caused, but isn't it true, ie, don't QF pilots and engineers get paid considerably more than virgin et al in Aus, and more than competitors overseas. Im just saying. After all it is hard to rally public support against QF, GT and others, if in fact his claims in that interview are true.

No they do not get more than overseas competitors. Virgin dont compare, because they don't fly similar types... Inefficient managament of these guys is the problem. They are not flying to their full potential, yet getting paid for it. The reason is over establishment. This is not the fault of the pilots, but incompetant managers, who yet again, have stuffed it all up, but rather than accept blame, they put it on the pilots. Madness.



See above answer.

[balance]

A380, the Qantas 737's are short haul and as such aren't part of the industrial action, but since you ask, the two groups are very similarly paid. The QF 737 guys might be very slightly ahead, but I would hazard a guess at less than $10k p.a. They are very close.

As for the A330's I wouldn't have a clue, but good question though. Perhaps a Virgin A330 driver might like to field that one?

I don't disagree with you on the PR points - we need to be out there and getting the message across to prove that Qantas management are incompetant liars, cheats and thieves.

Cheers...

[Capt Kremin]

QF 737 drivers fly to the exemption as well whereas I believe VB drivers do not.

[gutso-blundo]

And don't forget, even with their higher pay, QF domestic was one of the star performers of the group. Now compare that with Virgin's EOY result and perhaps the pay argument doesn't make so much sense...

[Ngineer]

can see the angst GT has caused, but isn't it true, ie, don't QF pilots and engineers get paid considerably more than virgin et al in Aus, and more than competitors overseas.

We can thrash out which company pays more, however the issue is job security, not money. We are not asking for $$$, just a chance to keep maintaining our airline and it's reputation for safety that was second to none. This issue of pay keeps being brought up by management, not us, and is diverting us away from the real issues/agenda.

[E&H]

Ngineer...interesting point you make about job security...I have been waiting for someone in your union to point this out...you guys are losing this battle on the PR front...when the claims of death threats came out I waited for someone from the union to denounce the threats and yet all they did was to claim that they too were subject to threats...surely it would have been better to denounce the threats and then say something like, "however it is a two way street we too have been getting threats"...make the most of what the qantas spin machine is spitting out...come in on the back of it...use it to your advantage...seems to me you guys are drowning...as an outsider who knows the industry and what really is going on it's frustrating to watch

[jieunni]

when the claims of death threats came out I waited for someone from the union to denounce the threats and yet all they did was to claim that they too were subject to threats

I'm sure there were suggestions from union officials that the threats were fabricated? It was reported in several newspapers.

[Ngineer]

...seems to me you guys are drowning...

Unfortunately I think it's the whole Australian aviation industry. Very soon GT may find himself an expert of a field that no longer exists.

[E&H]

interesting segment on the gruen planet about the death threats...ngineer yeah it's hard not to feel that way however I still think the union is and continues to miss opportunities...this is all about perception if you win that you win the battle...at the present time qantas will just ride it out and wear you down...in actual fact though time is on your side...we (pilots, engineers, staff) think that we have to sew it (contract negotiations) up yesterday instead of playing our employers at their own game...how come we never bring in professional negotiators and pay the money???

[600ft-lb]

how come we never bring in professional negotiators and pay the money???

I think you'll find they did during the EBA8 negotiations. It was a waste of time because Qantas do not negotiate. Look at the entire history of every single EBA negotiation with every employee group and they have all been hostile.

The only thing that lead to an outcome last time not to their liking was the fact that the costs of the battle finally outweighed the gain from the company perspective.

And yes it was $160million supposedly the figure that needed to be reached before Qantas was willing to accept a payrise in total not even 10% of that.

[cbradio]

Just caught a bit of GT on ABC radio. I'm not sure but I think I heard him say QF has lost it's safety advantage because new technology planes don't crash!!

[Short_Circuit]

because new technology planes don't crash!! I think Air France may have proved that wrong a few times ...... @

[Worrals in the wilds]

We're not back to AJ's frigging Datsun again, are we? :\
Here's a thought...respect the people who service them and punt the vehicles off when they're past their used by date! Fleet Management 101...
http://www.oocities.org/motorcity/lane/4732/Houthalen/Cherry.jpg

[600ft-lb]

No end in sight to Qantas stoush - ABC Melbourne - Australian Broadcasting Corporation (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-13/no-end-in-sight-to-qantas-stoush/3570336/?site=melbourne)

At least they refer to him as an aviation commentator and not an expert for once.

"Unfortunately both sides have virtually dug themselves into very deep holes and unless there's a seismic shift in their views and their positions, this dispute, there is no end in sight for it," he said.
Mr Thomas says Qantas cannot capitulate on the key issues - pay rates for pilots and out-of-date maintenance practices.

And with neither side likely to back down, Mr Thomas says the Government must take action.
"I think the Government has to step in. I think they have to legislate," he said.
"I absolutely support legislation that unions cannot bring an airline to its knees, because Qantas has almost 1,000 flights a day.


"I mean, Qantas has to win. Qantas must win. And it's not a matter of whether I think the management of Qantas is good or the management of Qantas is bad, or whether the engineers are good or whether the engineers are bad, that's not the issue - it's what the public is prepared to pay for.
"So safety is no longer an issue; price, price, price, that's all."

[Worrals in the wilds]

"I mean, Qantas has to win. Qantas must win."
Wow, back to plutocracy are we? So much for thinking that went out in the Victorian Era. The more the world changes...:( Time to read some Engels for a cheer up. :}

[neville_nobody]

Thomas is drawing a long bow between this and the waterfront dispute. It's not like they were going to offshore the entire waterfront. This is about offshoring an Australian company so that a few managers can cleanup on KPI bonuses.

[gobbledock]

Doesn't Thomas ever shut up? I am in shock at how much brown matter can be regurgitated into main stream media by just one so called aviation commentator? Every time he comments the stench of excrement grows stronger? I would like to see him, Worthless and the Irishman compete in a '****e-a-thon', to see who could dribble the
most inaccurate, fanciful, deplorable and farcical story!

[ohallen]

And today he crops up as en expert commentator on PNG incident.

Is there no end to this man's talents?

He is obviously the Ch 7 go to man, I wonder if anyone has ever questioned his expertise?

[Super 64]

Given Ch 7 and the West Australian (GT's employer) are owned by the same group, they don't have to pay real money to get a real 'expert'.

And you get what you pay for..... in most cases!

S64

[flyingfox]

The ABC use him as their 'source of choice' too.

[73to91]

I think that the best place for the unions to go in order to get their story across is the ABC or the Fairfax press.

Hopefully the majority of P & J class flyers watch the ABC and read Fairfax papers.

Why not:
Sky News: 33% owned by both Nine Entertainment, Seven West Media & BSkyB with News Corp having a 39.1% controlling interest in BSkyB.
7: Owned by Seven West Media and we already know who sponsors the Sunrise program.
9: 25% owned by Consolidated Media who in turn have Consolidated Press holding 45% and Seven Network Ltd holding 22%
10: 18% is held by Consolidated Press Holdings and Lachlan Murdoch holds 9% and that last name rings a bell :suspect: Plus 13% by WIN Corporation.

So what about regional Australia? Well:
Prime 7: is held 100% by Prime Media Grp but Lachlan Murdoch (that last name again) holds 8% of them and Seven Network holds 14.9% and Ten West Rural WA holds 50%
Win TV: is held 100% by WIN Corporation and WIN in turn hold 13% of 10 Network Holdings and 50% of Ten West Rural WA who I mentioned above.

What about the Macquarie Radio Network?
Whilst Singo might be the majority shareholder, old GD is a shareholder and Mark Carnegie is a director. Oh yeah and both Singo, GD, Carnegie and Peter Gregg were principal investors in Global Aviation Asset Management.

[TIMA9X]

hgBGwa41C1o


In time, GT will spin out his credibility....

[victor two]

Hate him or not, he is getting the hottest prime time TV morning coverage to state his case against you to literally millions of the travelling public, meanwhile, you guys keep banging on across a couple of industry specific, union generated anti qantas threads on the DG section of pprune which attracts a couple hundered views from semi intersted web surfers.

I know who is getting more PR leverage on this issue .....and its not your side!

[QF94]

Hate him or not, he is getting the hottest prime time TV morning coverage to state his case against you to literally millions of the travelling public, meanwhile, you guys keep banging on across a couple of industry specific, union generated anti qantas threads on the DG section of PPRuNe which attracts a couple hundered views from semi intersted web surfers.

I know who is getting more PR leverage on this issue .....and its not your side!

This is the crux of our problem. Management get into the media first and cry wolf about the rogue unions hell-bent on damaging the "brand" and how the company has to ground already ageing 737 and a 767 due to the ongoing disputes. They failed to mention that these aircraft were going to be put out to pasture and being replaced by newer aircraft.

Also, it didn't help when the Fed Sec of the ALAEA states that passengers should fly other airlines during the next few months due to the ongoing disputes earlier this week. That statement alone got the most airplay on whinge back radio and didn't appear to help our cause any.

Hopefully, the AGM on October 28 gets a lot of the laundry aired and a few facts exposed about what is really going on within QANTAS. The intentional dismantling of the company bit by bit. This started back in 2005 with the shutting down of Heavy Maintenance in Sydney, and continued with the handing back of foreign operator contracts that were handled at S.I.T. These contracts were not lost due to our "high operational costs" but were abruptly ended and the "customers" told where to go and how to get there. Today S.I.T. Engineering only handles QF aircraft and are arms and legs for a couple of other airlines. Not even Jet* is handled.

The same thing is happening in Heavy Maintenance, Melbourne. Contracts have been signed with China to maintain the 738's. When the last of the 734's leave the company, so will the maintenance and many jobs. Just as they did in Sydney all those years ago.

These are sad times we live in. Not only for QF's sake, but for this country. People of all trades just want to work in a secure environment and be paid to be able to afford to live a reasonable lifestyle. I am tired of being told that we have to "move forward" and "that times have changed". In order to move forward, we have to go back a number of years to get sanity back into the workforce. Times haven't changed. People have, and it's the minority dictating to the majority that actually make a company work. Without the Pilots, Engineers, Check-in, Catering, Cabin Crew, Cleaning, Tech Records and the long list of employees that slog it out everyday to make the company run, the minority management wouldn't be able to pocket "their" bonuses off the backs of the workers.

Another thing to think about is this. AJ has stated that the International part of the business lost $200million. I find it baffling to say the least, that $250million is being spent to "upgrade" the 747 fleet to A380 status and the international sectors are slowly being stripped away to allow for the expansion of Jet*. Work that one out.

[TIMA9X]

he is getting the hottest prime time TV morning coverage to state his case against you to literally millions of the travelling public,

and

I know who is getting more PR leverage on this issue .....and its not your side!

Well, the reality is, free to air television suffers from a continual diminishing audience base, Sunrise and Today combined attract less than a million nationally on a good day.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Qcb7mBKKoW4/TphLdcC5DgI/AAAAAAAAACM/n6cfQAoP7rE/s576/Sunrise-ratings-1.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-LxyL68LA-ro/TphLoR_SpoI/AAAAAAAAACQ/_ofERyl6cLI/s640/Sunrise-ratings-2.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-cLs-VGorEYw/TphLt4Rd5rI/AAAAAAAAACU/Moc2ZIXr6z8/s668/sunrise-ratings-3.JPG

These figures are only valid over the 16 week rating period, outside of that, both morning programs drop to under half the above figures.

GT is a filler personality for slow ratings weeks and checking back to when he was on last the ratings for that morning was only about 196, 000 peak. Sunrise is big in hospitals, nursing homes, waiting rooms and ads to the ambiance around the breakfast table when mum is getting the kids ready for school...
These days the morning paper is the internet for credible news.

It is my view, most who watched Sunrise when GT made his guest appearance would have forgotten all about it by now..

[Al E. Vator]

It's a pity Journalism doesn't pay well. Like politicians - we get the journalists we deserve.

In the 80's Journalists as a group were tainted by that left-wing ideology that mandated that anything corporate or private enterprise was greedy and worthy of derision. It was a silly time but at least the general community good was the perceived ethos.

Now we have come full circle. Journalists are mere self-serving mouthpieces for the corporate entity that looks after them the best.

Simple fact: reporting favourably to Qantas or any other corporate monolith opens the possible of future employment or nice little back-handers now or later in life. Isn't it lovely when Journalist X checks in for our family holiday to NZ that he gets a business-class upgrade or lounge invitation?

Unions cannot offer that dangling carrot.

But biting that carrot relegates any Journalist or Politician to mere prostitute and denies them of any credibility whatsoever. Having said that, it would take a determined individual to resist the siren call of corporate benevolence.

The same applies for politicians of both persuasion (like the Howard Goverments' Transport Minister whose name escapes me but was known as The Minister for Qantas). And what an embarrassment Marn Ferguson is. A one-time union official now doing all he can to undermine the aviation unions. Is a board-position is in the offing?

And whilst we are all fickle (it takes one small pro-union article for all and sundry to hail Journalist A as the only unbiased aviation reporter in Australia) how can we compete with the filthy lucre that corporate giants lure journalists and politicians with?

Sitting in the retirement home, such "journalists" cannot hold their head high, they have forsaken any credibility with the endnote that appears something like this:

Journalist A travelled to PPRune courtesy of Qantas.

[amos2]

Oh, so true!!

[Worrals in the wilds]

Completely random question, but why the big dive on the week of the 13/06? Did nothing terrible happen? :}

TIMA9X raises an interesting point about free to air news and daily newspapers. If you're a news provider in this genre and you sign up to the 'news as entertainment' philosophy a la Sunrise and Today (in a swirl of sulphurous smoke and chalked pentagrams on the floor :}) you suddenly have to be...entertaining. Facts aren't entertaining. Credible commentary isn't entertaining. All the sensible people switched off when you went to the news-as-entertainment format so you have to stay entertaining, with all the emotive crap, inflammatory commentary, baldness cures and cute lil' koala stories that qualify as 'entertaining.' There's no room for boring old facts, because the people who want those aren't watching anyway.

The radio and the internet have the upper hand with actual news because they can constantly update their information. The paper and the broadcast are dead and outdated the minute they're printed/filmed, so there's nothing left in breaking news for them, hence news as entertainment (aka 'Come here stupid. We'll tell you what to think'). We're all getting so used to being called stupid and told what to think that there's a real scepticism building among the people with a degree of commonsense. Why are you telling me this? What's in it for you?

When it comes to news issues, everyone who cares already knows what happened and probably formulated an opinion. All that's left for the newspapers and broadcasts are emotive soundbites from opinionated people (aka 'experts'), infotainment and advertorial, all of which people are getting increasingly sceptical about. Which of these categories do GT et al fall under? Who knows...

Worrals travels everywhere courtesy of her own hard earned cash because no-one cares about her opinion enough to shout her a ticket/hotel room. She thinks this sucks and would be more than happy to do biassed opinion pieces about Flat Tyres outside Bourke and Why You Really Should Lock Your Motel Door in Thargo When You're The Only New Girl In Town AND scored the pub's last bottle of rum, if anyone would spring for the fare. :}

[TIMA9X]

why the big dive on the week of the 13/06? Did nothing terrible happen?

Worrals, I don't have any data on hand for that week, my guess is school holidays in most states, these morning shows always dip at these times.

[DutchRoll]

Hate him or not, he is getting the hottest prime time TV morning coverage to state his case against you to literally millions of the travelling public, meanwhile, you guys keep banging on across a couple of industry specific, union generated anti qantas threads on the DG section of PPRuNe which attracts a couple hundered views from semi intersted web surfers.

I know who is getting more PR leverage on this issue .....and its not your side

Victor two, you make a lot of statements and anti-union rants on these forums, not many of which are backed by any facts.

We've seen from TIMA9X that the morning shows do not attract "millions" of viewers. Plus the viewers who actually do watch the morning shows are likely to be generally the same group of people. Plus not all of them are going to be "travelling public".

As for Pprune, it is a simple matter to glance across at the thread topic listing and you can see the number of views generated. It is not "a couple hundred". For the "QF LAME EBA Negotiations Begin" thread alone, it is past 385,000 views. For the "AUGUST 24TH - QANTAS" thread, it is over 280,000 views.

Now I can guarantee you as a regular Ppruner that I have not generated all those 280,000 thread views myself, even though it will be counting multiple views from individual people. There are clearly many people who view Pprune - an awful lot more than your "couple of hundred semi-interested web surfers".

Honestly, your arguments are so shallow and your statements so feeble that they are more a source of simple amusement than an input to a genuine debate.

[Slippery_Pete]

So, Geoffrey Thomas... are you going to be an "aviation expert" and pass comment on the RB211 engine failures at Qantas after their latest incident?

I would expect any journalist with a shred of integrity to report on the fact that the required mod can not be completed in a timely manner due to Qantas outsourcing engine maintenance overseas - and also that there could be NO BETTER EXAMPLE of Qantas management placing profit before safety by offshoring this work.

Or will that just make your recent sunrise interview look like a load of horse-sh**?

[Trent 972]

GT's online bio from thewest.com.au (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/opinion/profile/-/blog/geoffreythomas/id/5835530/), says

Geoffrey Thomas has been in love with aircraft ever since his uncle – an engineer with Trans Australian Airlines – allowed him to clamber over Douglas DC-6Bs at Perth Airport in 1959.
After 25 years in commerce, Geoffrey turned his weekend hobby of writing articles on things that fly into a real job and was appointed the West Australian’s aviation writer in 1996.
Geoffrey took a break for five years in 2004 to write four books on the industry. Along the way, he picked up 23 national and international awards, including the The Royal Aeronautical Society/World Leadership Forums Aerospace Journalist of the Year in Paris in June 2009.
When not writing for The West Australian, Geoffrey is the Senior Editor for Washington DC-based industry journal Air Transport World and also makes regular appearances as an aviation commentator on Channel Seven’s Sunrise program.

You'd think a guy with his talents could look beyond the commerce slant and give a truly accurate report on the QANTAS PIA's. Those pay figures he quoted are so OTT he loses credence with us 'coalface' employees. Tres disappointing. :sad:

[tail wheel]

Now I can guarantee you as a regular Ppruner that I have not generated all those 280,000 thread views myself, even though it will be counting multiple views from individual people. There are clearly many people who view PPRuNe - an awful lot more than your "couple of hundred semi-interested web surfers".

Statistical fact: Nine out of ten PPRuNe viewers are not registered PPRuNe users. Most come from links at search engines, including Google. Indeed, Google search in PPRuNe is far, far better to search PPRuNe forums, than our in house PPRuNe search function.

[TIMA9X]

GvRndLJS8bM

To be fair, GT says some pretty good stuff.. (I can't believe I just wrote that,) there is even a guest appearance from Alan Milne.. in fact, SP got some pretty good solid blows in as well! When I think about it, I almost felt sorry for Mr Milne, looked a little a caught out towards the end of his bit.... it's all too much all of sudden.... I'm speechless .... check it out, and it's not even damn Sunrise....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wibble.gif wibbling Smiley required

[Anulus Filler]

From the clip..

STEVE PURVINAS: It doesn't surprise me that Qantas have bought the press out here today to say that aircraft have been grounded due to the engineer's dispute. What we have is documents that will show that these aircraft have been grounded because Qantas have announced in April that they were up for sale.

COMMENTATOR: Qantas conceded that at least one of the grounded aircraft has been marked for sale.

(CUE THE REVERSE GEAR BUZZER)

ALAN MILNE: One of them is, uuummmm, but I'd have to double check the regos and have a look at the ahhh, the fleet plan for you. :ouch: :ouch: :}


Got to laugh at QF getting caught out again. Purvinas called their bluff and they got caught out again. Now if these assclowns that run the airline had not mentioned anything about selling off the maggots in April, their grounding story would have been half believable to the press and public alike. I mean, its not like this dispute was never going to happen, so they could have had used this bull****e story to their advantage.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Nice job Fed Sec! :ok:

Personally I think the media (Sunrise aka 'Qantas Today' excepted) have been fairly balanced in their reporting of the issue. Despite their superior advertising power and their PR behemoth, Qantas haven't had it all their own way by a long shot.

As for getting the PM involved, she can't resolve her own cabinet disputes let alone the Qantas punch up, so maybe it's better that the federal government stays out of it. Or... maybe they sniffed the wind and realised it would cost them their twenty remaining voters. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

[hotnhigh]

I know I asked early on in this thread if Mr Thomas could make relative comparisons when he talks about qantas pilot salaries. But to save him from making the phone call I suggested, read this.........
Virgin gains as Qantas reels (http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbusiness/aap/8360360/virgin-adds-honolulu-to-network)

Mr Borghetti said pay differences between Virgin and Qantas pilots were only "single digit" and often existed because Qantas used larger aeroplanes.

They were available on industrial umpire Fair Work Australia's website, he said.

"I saw that line and must admit I did have a bit of a chuckle to myself," Mr Borghetti told an Australian British Chamber of Commerce lunch.
and...
Mr Borghetti said it was important to get the comparison right.

"We don't pay the same salaries for A380 and 747 pilots because we don't have A380s and 747s ... you've got to compare like for like, the bigger the aeroplane is, the more the salary is."

Got it now Geoff?

[truth_seeker]

Guys,

FA 18 is a known troll. Also masquerades as 'Conan' on F16.net-that I am sure of (same arrogant writing style, etc). Just growing tired of his empty threats to censor others, call in mods, etc. People are entitled to express their point of view, no matter if they are anti or pro Qantas. Simple.

Cheers

[Slippery_Pete]

Got it now Geoff?
The silence is DEFEANING, Geoff.

[the_company_spy]

Not in the Chairmans lounge it ain't.

[ejectx3]

Geoff? We can't hear you?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I spoke to Geoff yesterday and he told me he will not be reading Pprune any more.

[toolish]

What a load of crap, of course he will continue to read pprune.

[UPPERLOBE]

Chew some concrete Geoffrey, there is a helluva lot at stake here and unbiased reporting seems to have been the first casualty, has it occurred to you that those being misreported might actually bite back?

[Slippery_Pete]

I spoke to Geoff yesterday and he told me he will not be reading Pprune any more.
Is this true Fed Sec, or are you having a laugh?

Obviously he's quite happy to reply to threads where he has won a journalism award, but call him on having his hands in Qantas' pockets - and suddenly he won't be reading Pprune any more?

That stinks. Did he really think he could just slag off a group of 35,000 employees and not expect them to call his bluff and his lies?

Journalism in this country is a national disgrace, and in the majority of cases, represents nothing other than corporate sponsored advertising.

Ben Sandilands is an exception to the rule.

[Ngineer]

he told me he will not be reading Pprune any more

I tried that once. Didn't last long, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Who needs PPrune when one can casually peruse a QF press release:}

[QF94]

I don't know how common this knowledge is, but former QF CEO Dixon and CFO Peter Gregg both served as Chairman and directors of Orange Star Investment Holdings, based in Singapore that owned Jetstar Asia and Valuair. Alan Joyce was also a director of Orange Star Investment Holdings, which is now Newstar Investment Holdings.

Here are some articles showing the "relationship" between these people and what is now becoming QF's International Airline based in Asia.

Infratil - Airport Industry News: Jetstar Asia, Valuair bring no cheer to Qantas (http://www.infratil.com/content/view/2379/67/) (5 September 2008)

Asia Times Online :: Southeast Asia news and business from Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia and Vietnam (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/GG27Ae03.html) (Asia Times July 2005)

Jetstar Asia still flying at a loss | CAPA (http://www.centreforaviation.com/analysis/jetstar-asia-still-flying-at-a-loss-11679) (September 2009)

Jetstar to take on Tiger with revamp (http://www.theage.com.au/business/jetstar-to-take-on-tiger-with-revamp-20090402-9l7w.html) (The Age April 2009)

Bruce Buchannan, CEO of Jetstar Group is a director of Newstar Investment Holdings as is David Hall, former IT Chief in QF and now CEO of Jetstar Australia/NZ.

This is more than QF engineers or pilots being the best in the world. This is more than Geoff Thomas' reporting skills.

This is more about the systematic dismantling and shrinking of QANTAS and the labour force within Australia and shifting it offshore, so as to maintain the bonuses and outrageous payments to these individuals while they grow "their" airline at the expense of Australia's airline and jobs.

Alan milne's slip the other day on Lateline is the first of many. Hopefully the slip will become a slide down a steep gradient and make the management of QF accountable for their actions and hoepfully save what's left of QANTAS.

[Beyond tha Threshold]

GT has a live chat scheduled tomorrow so you can tell him what you really think.

Qantas dispute - The West Australian (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/opinion/post/-/blog/geoffreythomas/post/52/comment/1/)

Enjoy.

Beyond.

[flyingfox]

GT was on the ABC Drive program in Perth this evening. He basically parrots the Qantas management line. He sees Qantas as having to go offshore to lower its costs. If the Australian government doesn't change its aviation policies, then he is probably right. Pity we can't send our politicians to Asia to cut costs. :*

[theheadmaster]

...or our 'aviation writers' ;)

[Mud Skipper]

What will Geoff write about when we have all gone to the middle east and asian pilots are FIFO domestic in Oz...

I know, he could become an accident investigator.
With luck the first to go in will be full of pollies and journo's.:hmm:

[hotnhigh]

More info for you Geoff, re pay rates.

Mr Borghetti says there was a 5 per cent difference between the salary of a Boeing 737 pilot flying a Virgin Australia aircraft and an identical pilot flying the same aircraft for Qantas.
The difference was similar for ground staff, while aircraft engineers at Virgin were paid more than those at Qantas, Mr Borghetti said.


Read more: We pay enough says Virgin Australia CEO | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/we-pay-enough-says-virgin-australia-ceo/story-e6frfku0-1226183816945#ixzz1cWhE3aiJ)

Don't let the facts get in the way though.

[bandit2]

I heard they`re thinking of doing a remake of `The Munsters` & Geoffy is lining up to play Herman. I`d almost rather listen to AJ, they rant the same BS.

[Al E. Vator]

Again, we get the journalists we deserve.

Unless workers can come up with sufficient perks to counter those dished-out to "journalists" there is no chance of truth or even impartiality.

The same is true of the oft-quoted, so-called 'experts' from Centres for Aviation consulting organisations.

Not one journalist that I am aware of has had the impartiality to suggest that:

a) Some airlines in Asia pay way more than Qantas pay Australian staff (I know this first-hand). This whole Asianisation of QF is just a smokescreen to suppress Australian wages and thereby increase manager's wages.

b) Why try to take QF down-market to compete with low-cost Asian airlines at all? A similar parallel would be Ferrrari deciding their cars should be built in Vietnam to lower costs. The cost-cutting would be successful but the damage to what has hitherto been a successful brand would be disastrous. This is imbecilic.

And few journalists have had the cojones to doggedly pursue the very real issue of the hypocrisy of CEO's forcing wage suppression whilst simultaneously taking personal pay-rises.

How these 'journalists' can look themselves in the mirror with even an ounce of professional pride is beyond me. You can't seriously be proud of yourselves boys.

[1A_Please]

What is frustrating is that reporters ask for comments from people such as Peter Harbison at CAPA who never discloses that a major source of his business' income is consulting services from the self-same Qantas!!! His opinions may or may not be correct but he should at least disclose a potential conflict of interest.

[Al E. Vator]

...a very good point 1A. :D

Perhaps a full disclosure going back many years from would be in order! :rolleyes:

[Slippery_Pete]

Here's a question for our friend GT.

In the event Xenophon's senate inquiry finds QF have been creative with J* costs and international is in fact profitable, will you print a retraction to all your "must move offshore", pro QF management articles?

What if you got a guarantee said retraction wouldn't affect your kickbacks?

[SeldomFixit]

If Thomas hasn't got the balls to face his critics here - where does he ?
:*

[myshoutcaptain]

Airliners mid-air drama revealed (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/12699561/airliner-s-mid-air-drama-revealed/)

:mad::ugh:

[apache]

well that was a story about nothing, achieved nothing and reported nothing.

SCAREMONGERING is a word that springs to mind!

[AROVET LI]

The problem is that everyone is comparing apples with oranges and to make it even more difficult to find some sort of answer we have to contend with creative accounting.

It's not just the difference in a fortnightly pay packet to consider it's all the other T & C'S to consider such as hours,rostering,tax in that particular country,staff travel and other employee benefits,superannuation and the list goes on.

The chances of seeing a completely transparent comparison between the various pay scales and costings of the players are virtually zero.

The media as usual or I should say the majority of the media seem to be more interested in headlines than reporting the truth.

[balance]

I'm most certainly not a GT fan, quite the opposite, but I really didn't see any huge problem with this story. It was fairly accurate, and after listening to the recording, this statement:

A Virgin Australia spokesman said that on arrival in Perth, Flight 697 had sufficient fuel to reach an alternate airport, although fuel to reach an alternative destination was not required to meet the regulatory requirement.

was clearly not in accordance with what the pilots were thinking.

[Slippery_Pete]

I'm most certainly not a GT fan, quite the opposite, but I really didn't see any huge problem with this story. It was fairly accurate.


Yes, that may be the case, but had it been Qantas the news piece would have been completely different - probably centred around how the aircraft was saved by the bonus-deserving QF management.

He has to protect his QF Club & perks somehow.

[Mr Leslie Chow]

Assumption only but GT is probably a pilot want to be like AJ.

Does anyone see a trend??????

[The Green Goblin]

45 mins reserve fuel? Maybe for a weekend warrior like GT.

Turbine aircraft typically carry 30.

But then he knows everything about aviation doesn't he?

Stick to playing with model aeroplanes in your bathtub Thomas. If you flew an aeroplane as well as you report, you'd have bought the farm by now.

Tool.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I could never see GT writing an article like this about Qantas.

It's like my dealings with the Herald-Sun. The Qantas events do not get a run or appear on page 43. I rang them once about a wheel that fell off a Virgin plane and they were all over it, was front page next day.

Credibility in journalism is a thing of the past.

[BPA]

Spotters sites said a QF A330 had a problem into Sydney this morning, but nothing from GT about that.

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

Hey Geoffrey

Why don't you tell the readers of the West Australian what Qantas has asked for in FWA you F@#$%g Scumbag.

[Al E. Vator]

Take it easy, criticism need not mean abuse.

I've actually been critical of GT but I'm going to spring to his defence.

He actually did respond to stuff here on Prune once, and in a straightforward manner too, but that was when discussions were somewhat more cordial. Why would swearing at somebody encourage them to participate any further in such a forum? I personally wouldn't bother if it was me on the receiving end.

Rightly or wrongly, GT believes that QF, like Pan Am etc etc cannot sustain its unviable workplace conditions in the face of competition from lower cost competitors and there is historical precedent to justify such a position.

But personally, I don't agree with the simplistic approach of comparing QF to say Air Asia one bit (I happily pay more for a premium and safe product).

I believe GT was/is a pretty reasonable commentator on most aviation matters. I, like many here, don't agree with him at all on the QF issue but it's a long shot to suggest he's somehow "in the pocket" of QF or actively plotting against QF's competitors.

QF have of course, somewhat pathetically, bought journalists before (i.e. the disgusting "cash for comment" episode where they needed to pay people to say nice things about them) but just because someone has an opinion that may be seen as pro-QF management in one case, doesn't automatically condemn them for everything they say.

He is entitled to an opinion. That opinion may not be what we might see as sensible, realistic or even logical, but surely abusing him for that is not helpful to rational discourse?

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

With respect AL. I didn't ask him to participate in this forum.

[h.o.t.a.s.]

From todays West....


Qantas pilots demand more pay, better digs
GEOFFREY THOMAS AVIATION EDITOR EXCLUSIVE, The West Australian
Updated January 26, 2012, 2:20 am
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The Qantas pilots' union has increased its demands on the airline in arbitration hearings before industrial relations watchdog Fair Work Australia to include superior first class accommodation - or better - and travel upgrade priority ahead of the airline's chief executive.

They also want undercover parking at their home airport.

Whereas the engineers' union moderated its demands to reach a deal with Qantas, FWA documents leaked by pilots indicate the Australian and International Pilots' Association has taken a more demanding stand on behalf of its long-haul members.

Last year, Qantas forced the long-running and bitter industrial dispute with three key unions to FWA arbitration by grounding its fleet and locking out staff on October 30.

The grounding resulted in 447 flights being cancelled and disrupted the travel plans of 70,000 passengers.

After a weekend of deliberations, FWA terminated all industrial action, ending the crippling stand-off.

However, after 21 days the unions and Qantas could not reach agreement and the dispute is before FWA for binding arbitration.

Industry observers had suggested that the unions would moderate their demands because FWA would be less accommodating than Qantas.

The engineers' union reached an agreement in December.

The pilots' demands are outlined in a 275-page, 105,000-word document that has its origin in the late 1950s when the airline negotiated the transitionto the jet engine.

The document lays out what the first-class menu should be for pilots away from home and insists on three, three-course, meals a day.

The AIPA is seeking a 3 per cent pay increase and an upward reclassification of some pilots, allowing them to fly larger planes than they currently fly and raising their salaries by about $40,000 each.

It is also insisting that Qantas cannot code-share on Jetstar flights to typically tourist destinations.

Yesterday the AIPA and Qantas declined to comment on specifics.

A Qantas spokesman said: "The most important thing for our customers is that none of the three unions which caused industrial unrest last year can take any industrial action for up to four years."

Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has previously warned that the pilots' demands over codeshare flights would spell the end of Jetstar.




Its as if he's trying to piss you off!

[Capt Kremin]

Why doesn't he print the Qantas claim?

A 3% wage rise structured to be an effective 3 year wage freeze in exchange for going to CAO 48 E (job losses for SO's and longer duty periods with less crew for everyone else) ... B scale for new pilots .... Pattern protection to be recovered over almost 4 months...... stripping away every other T & C earned over 45 years....

C'mon Geoffrey, why do you always tell HALF the story?

[Slippery_Pete]

He actually did respond to stuff here on Prune once, and in a straightforward manner too, but that was when discussions were somewhat more cordial. Why would swearing at somebody encourage them to participate any further in such a forum? I personally wouldn't bother if it was me on the receiving end.

None of us condone this behaviour, but the fact remains that GT obviously left Pprune not because of the odd swear word but because the questions got too hard.

Rightly or wrongly, GT believes that QF, like Pan Am etc etc cannot sustain its unviable workplace conditions in the face of competition from lower cost competitors and there is historical precedent to justify such a position.

What pisses people off is that GT can think what he likes about sustainability of an Australian Legacy airline, he refuses to do research. This is what journalists are supposed to do. He has taken a profession and like many of his peers, allowed it to degrade into corporate advertising. His articles are not what he has found out - they are parrotting of company press releases.

My comments about QF club perks are simply because I can see no other reason a journalist would sink to such a level and bring such disgrace to the intergrity of journalism and everything it stands for.

If he did his homework, interviewed people from both sides himself, then wrote the article - I might not agree, but at least I'd respect him. It seems he thinks journalism involves clicking CTRL C on the little Irishman's press releases and then CTRL V on his newspaper front page.

Just once I'd like to read "I interviewed AIPA president Barry Jackson ...."

[balance]

Dick Smith cops a whale load of abuse, and is usually fairly good humoured about it, and he appears to be still hanging around here on occasion.

Yet Mr Thomas doesn't?

Even the mods on here don't appear to like Mr Thomas much from some recent comments I witnessed on another thread...

And I'm not convinced that he is even 50% correct with his shocking cut-and-paste effort in todays West Aust... Take this for example:

A Qantas spokesman said: "The most important thing for our customers is that none of the three unions which caused industrial unrest last year can take any industrial action for up to four years."

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the SH EBA up soon? Aren't THEY a part of the Qantas defined "axis of evil"!

Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has previously warned that the pilots' demands over codeshare flights would spell the end of Jetstar.

Not with that toxic gnome at the helm, I'm sure. And we would never be so lucky to see the end of that toxic airline anyway.

As for the rest of what he wrote. Hmmm.. Maybe 5% correct. That was the spelling.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Nor is Dick Smith a journalist but a bloke with an opinion, which he is perfectly entitled to have and express wherever he so chooses.

None of us condone this behaviour, but the fact remains that GT obviously left PPRuNe not because of the odd swear word but because the questions got too hard.I really don't feel like re-reading the whole thing because it was soul-destroying enough the first time around, but that's also my recollection. It was a bit tougher than dealing with Mel and Kochie grinning and nodding along like a pair of car ornaments.

Journalists are expected to declare their interests or provide fair and balanced commentary. I know that's like expecting footy players to act like pillars of the community, but it's what's supposed to happen.

From the Australian Journalists' Association code of ethics:
1. Report and interpret honestly, striving for accuracy, fairness and disclosure of all essential facts. Do not suppress relevant available facts, or give distorting emphasis. Do your utmost to give a fair opportunity for reply.

4. Do not allow personal interest, or any belief, commitment, payment, gift or benefit, to undermine your accuracy, fairness or independence.
Media Alliance Code of Ethics (http://www.alliance.org.au/code-of-ethics.html)
:hmm:

[Cactusjack]

I'm glad GT doesn't hang around here anymore. His opinions are biased ****e and not worth a pint of panther piss.
His 'articles' are classic examples of the 'toffee coated turd' - once you lick the top layer of toffee off it is pure ****e underneath.
He is QF's footstool and his newspaper articles are some of the most inaccurate published pieces of poo poo you will ever read.
My suggestion is to scan the article and if his name is attached, linked, or he is the author then do not read it, rather place it strategically in the toilet where it belongs.

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

No wonder you lot can't come to an agreement with management - it'd be like negotiating with pre-schoolers! :{:{:{:{:{

[Tankengine]

Yes, our management do act like pre-schoolers!:ok::E

[QFdude]

For those interested ;) GT can be seen spreading his word at the Claremont Community Centre on Thursday 9th Feb @ 9:45 on behalf of the Floreat and Districts branch of National Seniors Australia...... before a tasty morning tea. :ugh: :ugh:

[gobbledock]

I would rather see Gillard again getting pushed into her Comcar with her grotesque white tuckshop lady legs up in the air flashing her mop of bright red curly Ronald McDonald hair rather than listen to a single item of pony poo dribble out of GT's mouth.
Let him impress the pensioners with outrageous stories about exciting aviation non events in his usual sterile style. He will put all the old geezers to sleep while causing aviation people to barf up endless amounts of bile as he indulges himself in make believe stories so full of holes that you could fly one of his 'employers' A380's through it!
No thanks, no interest in watching him speak unless he gets unceremoniously bundled into a waiting car while the hostile crowd grab one of his shoes and defecate in it.

[FGD135]

Why all the invective gobbledock?

GT is just a man with an opinion. Is this how you react when somebody has an opinion you don't like?

The rabid Qantas pilots don't like his opinions either, but when it comes to people that know something about airline economics, you won't find too many - anywhere in the world - whose opinions differ markedly from GT's.

GT is just telling it like it is, but this hurts some people.

GT has been an avid follower of aircraft and airlines for probably well over 20 years and has won many industry awards for his journalism. I personally will go out of my way to read a piece he has written, as I know it contains a certain wisdom.

I have some of his books. His book "Qantas Flightpaths" is jam full of information on every economic aspect of aircraft and airlines. Apart from a riveting read, this book would serve as a reference work. In fact, it should be a textbook for any professional entering commercial aviation.

gobbledock, your post implies that GT's writings are full of untruths and inaccuracies. How about you give some examples? I often ask for such examples during these GT-bashing threads but never get any.

[Anulus Filler]

gobbledock, your post implies that GT's writings are full of untruths and inaccuracies. How about you give some examples? I often ask for such examples during these GT-bashing threads but never get any.

FGD. Your initials remind of of the way I addressed a previous CEO of Qf. Nevertheless, there is a little button at the top right of this thread. It is labelled "FIRST". Click this button and it will open up many examples of what poorly researched and executed journalism looks like. Enjoy the read.

While you're there, for a bit of nostalgia, our 'Aviation Expert' went stealth when presented with this letter from the ALAEA fed sec. http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/451933-letter-geoffrey-thomas-aviation-expert.html

If you want credibility from a person who doesn't need to blow the 'Aviation Expert' trumpet, read Ben Sandilands. His articles are what intelligent, unbiased journalism is all about.

[C441]

When I turn up to flightplan at my place of employment I'm handed a wad of weathers and notams which I peruse and along with the tips, suggestions and information I glean from consultation with a large number of professional people, endeavour to make relevant decisions that determine the progress of the flight.

When reading Mr Thomas's missives I get the impression he's only reading a selection of Notams from a single source. His information may be true in isolation, but its hard make quality decisions (write accurate articles) if you don't have, and more importantly use, all the information you can lay your hands on.

[unionist1974]

Cash for comment? Well perhaps a good look at a certain journo who appears to be a darling on these boards should be undertaken . Ever since the bow tie cut him of the gravy train, he has had a deep seated hatred for thr hand that once fed him so well.