GUY GIBSON-SHOT DOWN BY THE RAF

[rolling20]

This will probably get moved!
Never heard this one before...Dambusters hero Guy Gibson ‘killed by the RAF’ | The Sun |News|Campaigns|Our Boys (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/3862090/Dambusters-hero-Guy-Gibson-killed-by-the-RAF.html)

[sled dog]

It must be true if it is in The Sun........:rolleyes:

[flipster]

Very sad - if true - both for Gibson (and his nav), as well as for the young gunner and the Lanc crew. It must have been awful living with that belief for 50 years. It is easy to see the similarities between a Mossie and Ju88....sh!t!

Now, the RAF covering something up?.......Never, I just don't believe it!

[rolling20]

An ex Lanc rear gunner once told me the reason Gibson went was because 'he got too cocky'.
IIRC Gibson hadnt had that much time on the old Mossie.
That night he deviated from the planned route home. I also thought that when wreckage was found only a few years back there was evidence of a problem with the fuel selector.
Mossie pilots knew the problems re recognition and in the words of Jack Currie ( Lancaster Target) 'gave them a wide berth'. Them being four engined RAF heavies.
It would seem unlikely that Gibson would have strayed so close to become within range and most probably he would have been at a different height as well, that coupled with his deviation makes it unlikely.

[Buster Hyman]

Lets hope they don't rediscover what he called the dog! All hell will break loose!

[Pontius Navigator]

We need Dr Alf Price to study this one. He is a past-master at researching contemporary records on a minute-by-minute basis and matching target and fighter.

He did considerable research for Len Deighton when Len wrote Bomber and could probably trace this incident.

[NutLoose]

They believe Bader was shot down by one of his own Side too....

[Dengue_Dude]

Lets hope they don't rediscover what he called the dog! All hell will break loose!


Don't mention 'Digger' - as has been said, it's all about being able to call a spade a spade - ho ho.

:E

[Pontius Navigator]

DD, do't dig a hole for yourself. The dog used to hide in a wood pile.

[MrBernoulli]

Don't mention 'Digger' ...It wasn't Digger, for goodness sake, it was Trigger! Everyone knows that! :rolleyes:

:E


It must be true if it is in The Sun........:rolleyes:The Sun lifted the story from issue 54 of Britain At War magazine.

Britain at War: A History of Conflict (http://www.britain-at-war.com/view_issue.asp?ID=3007)

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3614/3007x.jpg
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/98/3007x.jpg/

[Tankertrashnav]

It is easy to see the similarities between a Mossie and Ju88....sh!t!




Some years ago I bought a deceased Mosquito squadron commander's medals from his widow. She quite naturally wanted to hang onto his logbooks, but she let me have a look through them. Just before D Day there was an entry showing he had been shot down (luckily over England). The widow told me that the story behind the entry was that he was shot down when they were in action with Ju 88s. Later gun camera analysis showed that he had in fact been shot down by one of his own squadron.

Hardly a good career move!

[Geehovah]

Hands up all air defenders who never took a "blue on blue" shot. Even with JTIDS its not impossible.

Sad that it might be true but no one will ever know.

[Min Decent Ht]

Thanks Geehovah, some relevant banter there to bring it home to the modern generation. Home many guns kills involved JTIDS?

Banter aside, (sorry couldn't help myself, abuse of an F4 mate is like clubbing seals) frats were common place according to many accounts of WWII, remember Piece of Cake? Scary.

[Wensleydale]

What are the odds on the same Lancaster crew taking out Glen Miller......?

Seriously though, I read about a Lancaster crew debrief when an inexperienced gunner admitted to his captain that he thought he had seen a night fighter close in cloud, but when it came into clear air a few seconds later he saw that it was another Lancaster. His captain gave him a savage dressing down - if he thought it was a night fighter then why didn't he shoot at it?

Loyalty in those times was to the crew - not the Sqn or the RAF. Those who moulded as a crew survived. Had the gunner who is supposed to have shot down Gibson hesitated, and it had been a night fighter, then they were gone. Gibson should have kept clear.

[diginagain]

What are the odds on the same Lancaster crew taking out Glen Miller......?
If SoS Def's wishes come true, and tomorrow is a quiet news day, expect that to make the front page of the Sun.

[taxydual]

RAF Blue on Blue during WWII.

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/documents/Journal%2034%20-%20Peter%20Hennessey%20on%20The%20Secret%20State%20plus%20mi sc.pdf

Page 82 onwards.

Page 106 for data.

[jindabyne]

This will probably get moved!

Here's hoping so

[Brian Abraham]

If any one has a problem with the dogs name I suggest you don't go and see the new Oz film "Red Dog" as it gets used - probably be edited out for the sensitive overseas market.

[spanish no fly]

What are these niggerling references to dog?:p

[Maxibon]

I always thought the doc was called Nigel....:bored:

[Pontius Navigator]

Hands up all air defenders who never took a "blue on blue" shot. Even with JTIDS its not impossible..

Without going in to too much detail I was priviledged to view a HVAA AD exercise. Defence was 4xF3 and attack was 4x4x4 F16.

The defence may be said to have won as the HVAA was never engaged. Three AAM were fired and two kills achieved. The only problem was the F16s never engaged nor were themselves engaged.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Forget which of the many books I've read covers the essence of gunners' policy, which boiled down to:

"Count the number of engines, if it's less than four - OPEN FIRE"

[Dengue_Dude]

"Count the number of engines, if it's less than four - OPEN FIRE"
Absolutely. RAF intruders used to 'fly with the pack' but kept a healthy distance away. Anyone flying a twin engined aircraft, in the dark inside the bomber stream is asking for trouble. There's also the school of thought that says he was changing over the fuel feed. But who knows.

If it happened, then it's sad. But GG would be well acquainted with the behaviour of and SOPs for gunners over hostile territory.

I can't see why any thinking person would want to blame the gunners . . . now if it were Lewis Hamilton . . . (oops)

[Tankertrashnav]

Anyone flying a twin engined aircraft, in the dark inside the bomber stream is asking for trouble.

If that is the case it must have been tough on the Wellington guys. Admittedly Lancs would probably be higher, but they could well be in among the Stirlings while these were still on Ops. Presumably this point would be covered at briefing when Wellingtons were involved on an Op, but on the "shoot first, ask questions later" principle some of them must have been friendly fire victims

[draglift]

Recent findings have suggested that Guy Gibson, Amy Johnson, Glen Miller and Douglas Bader were all downed by friendly fire (or in Glen Miller's case friendly bombs)

The Daily Mail also had the Guy Gibson story

Dambusters legend Guy Gibson was shot down by BRITISH airman | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2047476/Dambusters-legend-Guy-Gibson-shot-BRITISH-airman.html?ito=feeds-newsxml)

Very sad if true.

[LowObservable]

A good deal of sympathy for the gunner - it sounds as if the debriefers laid it on a bit thick with the "lost and trying to follow a bomber home".

Flying a twin-engine aircraft anywhere within effective .303 range of a bomber over hostile territory would seem to be less than smart, given bomber loss rates and the fact that everyone knew that there were ten Mosquitoes in the sky versus ****-knows how many Ju88s.

A bit like sneaking up on a rookie cop in a bad neighbourhood at 3am and yelling BOO!

[NutLoose]

You should read the full story in Britain at War, apparently when he was reported as lost a cheer is reputed to have gone up in the local pub as he was that hated amongst junior crews and groundcrew.. at one point even sabotage was suspected, but he swapped planes at the last moment so it was ruled out.

Indeed another article on some pilot that died doing a victory roll in a previous addition, it was stated that no one attended the funeral because they were so saddened by his loss, the next issue someone had come forward with evidence to suggest he was a bully to the Sgt pilots to the extent of ordering some of them to "participate in some of the japes where they were bullied" and one of the said Sgt pilots did a little dance amongst the burning wreckage of his plane before wandering off smiling to himself that he was gone.....

[Wensleydale]

Flying a twin-engine aircraft anywhere within effective .303 range of a bomber over hostile territory would seem to be less than smart, given bomber loss rates and the fact that everyone knew that there were ten Mosquitoes in the sky versus ****-knows how many Ju88s.



The raid on Nuremburg on 30 Mar 44, carried out by 795 aircraft from Bomber Command was met by 246 night-fighters. 94 Lancasters and Halifaxes failed to return.

Not sure about Luftwaffe night-fighter figures for the night of 19/20 Sep, but 1 & 5 Groups Bomber Command sent 227 Lancasters supported by 10 Mosquitoes to bomb Monchengladbach/Rheydt. 100 group sent a further 15 RCM aircraft and 17 Mosquito sorties. 4 Lancasters were lost in addition to Gibson's Mosquito - Gibson was Master Bomber for the raid. The low losses suggest that the night-fighters did not penetrate the bomber stream in large numbers.

[NutLoose]

The article also suggested the (Mossie) had all his nav lights on as well... suggesting he may have had radio problems and was trying to show he was friendly.

[rolling20]

As I mentioned in my earlier post, a Lanc rear gunner told me Gibson went because 'he got too cocky'. He also told me that Gibson had said 'Its lovely down here chaps at four thousand feet'.

Now whether the X rear gunner was on that raid ( he died this year aged 90), whether it was hearsay, or whether Gibson was shot down by light flak I don't know. It would seem very unlikely that he would've been downed by a four engined heavy if he was at four thousand feet!

There have of course been references to a light in the cockpit, seen by people on the ground. This may have been a fire or possibly a torch, looking for the fuel valve, which previous stories have alluded to.

I guess we will never know.

[ColinB]

There have of course been references to a light in the cockpit
Perhaps the light from the lighthouse shone for him.

[Wensleydale]

If Martin Middlebrook is to be believed (and he is an impecable source) then Gibson's aircraft "crashed in flames - according to a Dutch eye-witness...." (Bomber Command War Diaries). Doesn't sound much like a torch in the cockpit....

[sablatnic]

No, twasn't digger, I think. Nogger, maybe?

[Dengue_Dude]

No, twasn't digger, I think. Nogger, maybe?

Oh dear, we're getting close to sexism - might it have been 'nagger'?

I'm sure I binned one of them . . .

[Wiley]

Recent findings have suggested that Guy Gibson, Amy Johnson, Glen Miller and Douglas Bader were all downed by friendly fireAnd many others as well, I fear. I read somewhere many years ago that since records were kept (which I understand was the American Civil War, so let's say 1861), in every war since, the percentage of casualties caused by so-called 'friendly' fire has remained pretty much the same - a staggering 30%.

As shocking as that almost one in three figure may seem, is it so unbelievable when you consider that you're dealing with very scared, very stressed young men, (some of them not particularly well trained), with a gun in their hands, many of whom will shoot first and ask questions later. There are also the 'grand mistakes' by leaders where fire is directed to the wrong co-ordinates. For obvious reasons, great efforts are made to disguise such mistakes.

The example that always comes to mind for me when I think of 'blue on blue' incidents is the invasion of Sicily, where someone with absolutely no understanding of human nature routed the C-47 fleet carring the American paratrooprs over the invasion fleet. One excitable gunner on one of the many hundreds of ships in the invasion fleet started firing - and every other gunner on every other ship promptly followed suite. I can't recall how many aircraft were lost -(but it was many) - or how many of the airborne troops were killed or injured, but the casulaties were such that the airborne element of the invasion was more or less made totally ineffective.

When the Korean War started, the first mission the P-51s of 75 Sqn RAAF were tasked to carry out involved destroying a troop train under the direction of an American FAC. It was South Korean troop train. If my memory serves me correctly, the South Koreans suffered 450 casualties in that attack.

[rolling20]

Wensleydale ..Doesn't sound much like a torch in the cockpit....Perhaps you can enlighten us as to what kind of sound a torch makes? :)


Dambusters historian Jim Shortland believes that because Gibson was unfamiliar with Mosquitoes, he may have simply forgotten to flip the switch that turned on the second petrol tank

According to an article by Roy Nesbit (former RAF Coastal Command Nav-Beauforts) in Aeroplane Gibson was not shot down. According to Nesbitt, the aircraft may have suffered engine failure through fuel starvation. Gibson had apparently only flown the Mossie a handful of times before the fatal flight, and only once at night. He'd also never flown the aircraft to such a distant target, the importance of this being that he'd never had to use the fuel tank selectors behind the seat. Nesbitt's theory is that Gibson,unfamiliar with the selectors and groping around for them in the dark, selected an empty tank. Eye witness reports from the time state that a light was seen in the cockpit shortly before the crash and it's thought that they may have used a torch or switched on an interior light to try and see what position the selectors were in after the engines started spluttering. This in turn would've done their night vision no favours, which may also have contributed to the crash

[alC]

Rolling 20.

I was told the same story while visiting the Dambuster's museum at Scampton last month.
Apparently during the war, 617 sqdn. were known as The DumbB@stards and disliked by many of their fellow squadrons.

[Blacksheep]

Gibson was Master Bomber for the raid.Which involves hanging about over the target for the duration of the raid. Which in turn begs a question as to why he'd be fumbling about with fuel transfer so close to the end of the raid. On a more important point, the dog could not have been hiding in the woodpile. There was nobody in there but the chickens.

[Maxibon]

Recent findings have suggested that Guy Gibson, Amy Johnson, Glen Miller and Douglas Bader were all downed by friendly fire

Bloke darn the pub told me they were all in the same aeroplane and that the pilot was some bloke called Atta.

Anyway, pse keep up the speculation as clearly the truth can only be brought out through internet theorising...

[Wensleydale]

Perhaps you can enlighten us as to what kind of sound a torch makes?


Without wishing to be as pedantic - it sounds like a light whisper....

Martin Middlebrook also points out that Gibson's radio had worked perfectly throughout the sortie - as Master Bomber it would be a go-no go item - yet there is speculation about radio trouble. There are eyewhitness reports of the aircraft on fire.... methinks that, like Bader's loss, there is some deliberate misinformation out there to muddy the waters. Lots of theories - little evidence to draw an accurate conclusion.

[LFFC]

I'm suprised that this thread has lasted so long in the "Military" forum without being moved into "History and Nostalgia" like the thread on the Remaking of the Battle of Britain (http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/465427-battle-britain-re-made.html#post6733610) movie!

Mind you, I guess there are a lot of subjects on here that could be moved to "History and Nostalgia" - Vulcans, Nimrods, Harriers and Carriers spring to mind. :ouch:

[ColinB]

I'm suprised that this thread has lasted so long in the "Military" forum without being moved into "History and Nostalgia
Wasn't Guy Gibson a serving aircrew officer on military service in defence of his country?
We can't start filing away our heroes in supporting threads.
Shame on you.

[rolling20]

Without wishing to be as pedantic - it sounds like a light whisper....
Haha, thanks for clearing that one up!

Like I said in my earlier posts, we will never know the truth, but debate is healthy.

[LFFC]

ColinB

I was being sarcastic; I can't see why the Battle of Britain Movie (http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/465427-battle-britain-re-made.html#post6733610) thread was moved either as there were lots of serving officers involved in that too, but I guess the Mods have some funny ideas at times.

Besides, it gave Beagle another opportunity to see Susanna York in full kit!

[ColinB]

LLFC
I was trying satire, obviously unsuccessfully.
I have difficulty taking seriously other people, I don't mean you, who after 60-70 years begin second guessing an exceptional pilot who had survived many years in combat.
The Red Baron was allegedly shot down by a soldier with a rifle from the ground.
I suppose that no matter how talented you are in war quite often your luck eventually runs out.

[500N]

Colin

The other question is, does it really matter what caused the crash after so long ?

And as another poster mentioned, what about all the others that occurred.
No focus on them.
.

[rmac]

Its been suggested that Gibson was deeply unhappy in his personal life.

Perhaps it was a case of suicide by Lancaster

[ColinB]

Do you mean he was so selfish that he killed his Navigator because he was unhappy.
I hope you have some evidence of this.

[MightyGem]

I was trying satire, obviously unsuccessfully.
Maybe? extra characters....

[Pontius Navigator]

Remember he was AKA as the Arch Bastard.

[rmac]

Hello Colin

The giveway that it might be conjecture was in starting the sentence with "perhaps"

But on the question of selfish, its well known that he had to be sent away on a war bonds tour to the US due to his (some would call selfish) behaviour of shagging his brother officer's wives................

[Davaar]

The dog used to hide in a wood pile.

This takes me back. Some years ago I had business in the Caribbean that took me to a meeting of senior executives, all of them black.

A little late yet another of their top men, also black, arrived; spotted me; and observed -- a comment I still treasure -- at large:

"Aha! I smell a Caucasian in the wood pile!"

[AR1]

There's a lot of license taken with Gibson as indeed with others who attain almost mythical status. My grandfather worked with Gibson for a considerable period of time, and what may not be widely known is that his dog was actually called 'C**t' - This was changed to 'Ni**er' for the original film to avoid offending people.

[henry crun]

How times have changed; nowadays the first word is more acceptable than the latter.

[Brian Abraham]

Doe's that mean then that 'Ni**er' was not the code word used to confirm the breach of the Möhne Dam, but rather 'C**t'?

[MrBernoulli]

My grandfather worked with Gibson for a considerable period of time, and what may not be widely known is that his dog was actually called 'C**t' - This was changed to 'Ni**er' for the original film to avoid offending people. Ah, that probably explains, during my posting to RAF Scampton, the little grave headstone I saw on the station that was labelled 'Tw4t'.

[Dengue_Dude]

Well it's a sight easier than 'uro-genital meatus of the female gender' . . .

Getting back to the original point of the post. I'm surprised to find that I actually don't care if he WAS shot down by one of ours.

I mean the gunner wouldn't have been sat in his turret, cold and on edge thinking - wow, I can blow away a Staish . . . there are no winners in 'blue on blue'. The bomber losses probably dictated, fire first and ask afterwards (it's always worked for the Navy).

[millerscourt]

I have just been re reading a book titled Seven Pilots by Charles Graves (younger brother of Robert) published in1940/41 and in the final story on page 176 a fictional Beaufighter pilot named Hugh Calverley was warned about the dangers of doing patrols at the same altitude as British bombers , whose rear gunners were ( and are ) very quick on the trigger.

Anybody know where Charlers Graves got his knowledge of operational flying to write such a book?

[Brian Abraham]

His autobiography "The Bad Old Days" should inform. Also penned "Thin Blue Line or Adventures in the RAF", so seems he had some respect for the RAF. Listed as a journalist and writer. Worked on the Sunday Express, Daily Mail and many other newspapers, and penned 46 books in all. No mention of him having served.

[polecat2]

I've just read the following Readers' Letter in the latest 'Aeroplane Monthly'. It does support the theory that Gibson had a fuel selector problem (and also confirms some peoples' opinion of him). However it remains a theory only.

Sir, Excellent issue on the "Dam Busters" -congratulations [Aeroplane May).
As an adjunct to that, I thought you might be interested in the story relating to Gibson's demise in September 1944.
During a recent visit to Scampton with the Airfield Research Group, I was amazed to see they have some pieces of Mosquito XX KB267, including a fuselage section with part of the serial number.
Back in 1999,1 was in my shop, Air Supply Aviation Store in Leeds, when and an elderly gentleman called to ask if I could repair a set of HiFi headphones. It was probably easier to replace them, but he insisted I repair them which I said I would, then he dashed off, muttering his apologies as he was in a hurry off to collect for the RAF Benevolent Fund.
He returned a couple of days later, and whilst in the shop we got talking and he said he had been a Mosquito pilot in the Second World War. "Which squadron?" I asked. "627 Squadron." was the reply. He introduced himself as Peter Mallender (Fit Lt, DFC.) He then went on to tell me some of his story, including how he had his flaps shot off on a low-level raid to Oslo Gestapo HQ.
He also told me that Wg Cdr Guy Gibson was flying his Mosquito, Canadian built MkXX KB267, when he lost his life. Knowing some of the controversy that surrounds that incident I asked him if he thought Gibson had been shot down. "Definitely not," he retorted, "He ran out of fuel!"
That evening, September 19,1944, Fit Lt Mallender had been briefed by his CO (Wg Cdr Elliott?) to "loan" his aircraft KB267 AZ-E to Gibson, and brief him, and Sqn Ldr Warwick, Gibson's navigator on the "vagaries" of the Canadian Mosquito. Gibson had told Mallender "No Need to tell me! I've flown a Mosquito before!" and he quickly ushered Warwick into the aircraft, and Peter was brusquely signalled away from the aircraft. When Gibson and Warwick did not return, Peter was fairly sure he knew what had happened. They had run out of fuel.
After the war ended, Peter was tasked with running a photographic unit taking aerial photographs of the bomb damage across Germany. He took the opportunity to visit the area of Gibson's crash, and met some "local" people who had witnessed it. There had been no gunfire at the time, and several had seen a torch or small light moving around in the cockpit. On the Canadian built Mosquito the fuel change-over cocks are in a different location to UK aircraft. Apparently Warwick had never flown in a Canadian aircraft.
Peter Mallender was of the opinion that Gibson had crashed due to lack of fuel, and the cause, in Peter's words, "...was due to his arrogance during that pre-flight briefing."
Peter, who lived locally, became a regular visitor to my premises, and we spent many happy hours chatting about his wartime adventures. Sadly Peter Mallender passed away a few years ago, but before he did, he presented me with a print copy of the painting "Gibson's Last Flight" by Charles M. Thompson GAvAA, the original of which he duly signed and which is now on display at Thorpe Camp Visitor Centre.
KEN COTHLIFF Via email

Polecat

[Onceapilot]

So much conjecture ... ! However, do we know enough about Gibson to decide if he was a person we should admire?

OAP

[The Old Fat One]

I admire everybody that served in Bomber Command in WW2. As I admire anybody that ever served, fought or died in the cause of freedom.

Their personal qualities don't enter into it.

[Onceapilot]

TOFO, I think you misrepresent my question. I asked if we should admire the person, not his achievements in WWII. However, if your outburst is merely a random comment about the merits of freedom fighters, disregard the above.;)

[smujsmith]

TOFO and OAP,

For some reason, maybe the wine isn't working yet, I feel that somehow you both have it right. I wonder though this incessant need we seem to have developed in the modern era to denigrate famous people of the past. Why can we not accept that Gibson was a great leader of men, as promulgated in most historical records until now. I notice an article in a paper today telling us that Alistair Campbell has given a speech in Australia, in which he suggested that Winston Churchill was a bigger liar than his pal Bliar. It's very easy for, " all knowing" modern experts to analyse and give their take on someone who is long gone. I wonder if they would be so vociferous if the subject were still alive :confused:

Smudge

[500N]

"I wonder if they would be so vociferous if the subject were still alive http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif"

No, I doubt it.

Revisionist historians, the worst kind.

[DC10RealMan]

Gents.

We are in the 21st Century trying to talk about an individual who was born in 1918 in India and who died before most of us were born.

Guy Gibson was 24 when he died and won the Victoria Cross at the age of 23.

His family life as a boy and young man were such that if it were today he would probably taken into care.

He was a product of his time, class, and family and despite his many human failings he was a young man who had enormous responsibilities for one so young and died as many of the "Bomber Boys" did before they had a chance to live as Gibson himself acknowledges in his book "Enemy Coast Ahead"

Bomber Command personnel were just a cross-section of society, good and bad and apparently Leonard Cheshire was loved by everyone as he was just "a nice guy"

Let us just remember Gibson, Cheshire, Tait, Mahaddie, Searby and their comrades sacrifices and be thankful that we did not have to undertake such horrors.

[Basil]

DC10RealMan, Hear, hear!

[smujsmith]

DC10Realman,

Well said sir, totally agree.

Smudge

[Wander00]

Having been involved with the Pathfinders 50th in 1992, meeting many of the veterans, including Sir Ivor Broom; and Hamish Mahaddie at the Pathfinder Window unveiling in Warboys church (and meeting Mrs Bennett and Mrs Searby) I can only say how fortunate we were that so many stepped up to the plate, and so many gave their lives, and we should perhaps be forgiving of the occasional non-standard personality - they proved extraordinary leaders.

[langleybaston]

nogger ............ easy mistake on a qwerty keyboard.

[Dengue_Dude]

[QUOTE][There's a lot of license taken with Gibson as indeed with others who attain almost mythical status. My grandfather worked with Gibson for a considerable period of time, and what may not be widely known is that his dog was actually called 'C**t' - This was changed to 'Ni**er' for the original film to avoid offending people.
/QUOTE]

Now THAT made me giggle - thanks :D