Your husband will never be promoted if you wear trousers

[Chicken Leg]

Your husband will never be promoted if you wear trousers: An RAF wife reveals her VERY bizarre life in a military base | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046994/Your-husband-promoted-wear-trousers-An-RAF-wife-reveals-VERY-bizarre-life-military-base.html)

Oh dear! She does herself no favours with this silly article.

[Cows getting bigger]

Does she need favours? Sadly I think some of her observations are a very accurate reflection of the RAF I observed in the 80s, 90s and early 'noughties'

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Why Drumstick? Not seeing to many in inaccuracies in what she say.

[Wander00]

Nevrtheless, whilst the style of the article may not be to everyone's liking, there is a fair measure of truth in it. I recall in the early 80s a squadron leader at that place on the hill in N Lincolnshire getting seriously marked down on his 1369 by the Staish for wearing jeans for gardening, and a new wife being taken on one side by the other wives for being a bit adventurous with her husband in the PDA department and for her style in clothes. On the other hand, when we married (I was a newly promoted sqn ldr, and my wife had little experience of the RAF) Aunty Joan took the new Mrs W on one side and said "Now my dear, forget all this nonsense about senior officers wives and enjoy yourself." Some years later, Mrs W was now a "wg cdr's wife" and scandalised some by donning the velcro suit and throwing herself at the sticky wall at the summer ball (well, it was my last working day in the RAF before retirement.

[StopStart]

Oh dear. Her again.

On the plus side, it would appear "Paul" has had a result. A nice buxom, blonde, 20 something cabin crew sort of result I hope! :ok:

[Willard Whyte]

Sadly the article is a true reflection on the way things were in the 90s, certainly at Lyneham.

My wife and I found the best thing to do was to not give a stuff about other people's hang-ups, and do what we wanted.

Of course, not wanting to chisel away at getting promoted helped.

[sidewayspeak]

Oh dear! She does herself no favours with this silly article.

Why not?

She's divorced her RAF husband and is back in the real world and no longer has to play the RAF's stupid game. She makes some very valid points. The military is living in the 19th Century; it needs to move forward. When the Messes die due to PAYD and we have all-ranks clubs, and quarters disposed with, we may start to see progress. Until then, best thing you can do in the mob is buy your own home and get some real friends away from work.

[Flap62]

While there are bits of the story that contain elements of truth, that woman sounds like a complete nightmare!

Well done to that corporal who managed to find someone who would marry her in 24 hours, just so she could get into the mess for a few happy hour chips.

[StopStart]

Or alternatively it's nothing like life was like at Lyneham in the mid to late nineties. I would dissect the article but that would be falling into her PR trap - I'm smelling the distinctive aroma of another AW book in the offing here, hence this dribbly bit of publicity. Still, it'll probably be worth a read just work out which characters are you and I as per her last effort..... :rolleyes:

[Chicken Leg]

I'm not saying her observations are inaccurate. But marrying into service life and then criticising Cpl's not being allowed into the Mess, for example, makes her appear naive at the very least.

I was amazed to discover, for example, that the houses on the RAF base were segregated according to rank

Yep, luckily the Services still aren't socialists!

I longed to paint the walls a different colour but Paul reminded me that we would have to restore them to their original shade of bland magnolia before we left.

Yep, and I expect my civilian tenants to do exactly the same.

They should be sure to host regular dinner parties of their own.
I couldn’t cook, so I would order takeaway pizza when people came round.

Hmmm!

For long periods, there would be no men on the base and the kids would get excited about seeing a postman. Henry would run to the window and shout: ‘Look Mummy, a man!’

Does anyone believe that actually happened?

[StopStart]

Yes, just the one though...

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/146.gif

[goudie]

For long periods, there would be no men on the base and the kids would get excited about seeing a postman. Henry would run to the window and shout: ‘Look Mummy, a man!’


And the milkman walked around with a permanent smile on his face.:ok:

We were expected to keep our house in pristine condition until we moved out, when it would be subject to a rigorous inspection so that we could be held accountable for any damage


Is she saying that she prefered to leave it in a mess, for someone else to clear up?


What a load of old tosh.

[Shack37]

Little chance of promotion here then!


Bolivian 'cat-gate' immigrant cashes in on Tory conference fame - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/8815428/Bolivian-cat-gate-immigrant-cashes-in-on-Tory-conference-fame.html)

[ShyTorque]

There some truths in the article, but so what? Much of her annoyances seem to stem from the fact she wasn't able to do domestic stuff for herself, like cook or clean (I can, and still do and I'm a bloke). Cleaning a quarter for the next occupant and keeping it to a required standard in other ways? She obviously didn't notice when she moved in that someone had done the same for her....

However, rank conscious wives....yes, some were, very. I recall one lady introducing herself at a social function as "Mrs Sqn Ldr E***".

One of the pilots immediately very politely curtsied for her.. :E

Once, at a secret helicopter base some where in Hampshire, during my formal F1369 debrief, from the newly arrived Sqn Boss (Wing Cdr), he began to debrief me on my wife! This hadn't happened before in the previous ten years or so. I took great exception to this and I asked if I could go and fetch her so she could listen. I was told that wouldn't be necessary. I think my marks went down..... :rolleyes:

Clothing whilst off duty? I was once taken to task for wearing a leather jacket and what was described as "a loud tie". :p

[Chicken Leg]

I was once taken to task for wearing a leather jacket and what was described as "a loud tie".

I hope it was during early 80's, Bodie??!!

[Biggus]

While I appreciate that 47AD were based at Lyneham, when she mentions inviting the wives of some "other ranks" over for a wine tasting, she refers to them as "squaddies"? Smacks of a lack of personal knowledge to me.

If living on the patch was such a trauma for her, why didn't they move into private accommodation?

They married in 1997, by which time much of the so called snobbery she refers to was a thing of the past. Maybe in the 70s and 80s, but late 90s and 00s...?

Yes, married quarter rules have always been crazy and draconian, but by the late 90s there were firms that would guarantee to clean you quarter to march out standard for a reasonable fee. I know, I used one when I left MQ at Lyneham in 2000!! Most people also used their own ovens because wives preferred them to the rubbish ones installed in the quarter.

It seems very possible to me that she has got a few war/horror stories from older wives and is regurgitating them as her own experiences in the cause of making money for herself. Of course I could be wrong.....


One question that has to be asked, why is she telling this story. Is it genuinely to inform the great British public of what life is like as an RAF wife?? What makes anyone think the public cares....

[Wander00]

Oh, yes, and the letter from RAFH Ely to my wife, about her medical history, addressed on the envelope through GPO mail to "Wife of Sqn Ldr W", not even "Mrs W, Wife of...."

[VinRouge]

Its the Daily Mail. Outrage is what it thrives on.

Absolute horsesh*t from my (and my wifes POV, who showed me the article). Since when does your OH have to give up a sucessful career to be a service wife? I know a fair few doctors, teachers and legal profession who are partners not only of Officers but also the knockers too! There are a fair few that live the stepford wives model, but thats their choice, no one elses!

I also am aware of "NCO filth" (as she would have us believe the RAF system treats them) being married to senior officers in the RAF, no mention of this. Nor the street parties down Pintail where I am sure plenty of ORs went to.


THe problem with tripe like this is partners of prospective joiners will read this and take it as gospel.

As for having to keep the place tidy, she could have kept the house a pigsty and paid 250 quid to get it cleaned up when she moved out!

She could even have used some OMO on the curtains if she didnt want to pay for having them cleaned... :}

As for requirements of the officer's wives, wasnt there a recent LYE stn cdr who didnt use quarters on a full time basis due to their wife's professional employment?

If any senior officer attempted to OJAR debrief me on my wifes deportment and bearing, I would get up (mid speil), walk out and close the door behind me.

[Flap62]

"Your husband will never be promoted if you wear trousers"

I suspect this is still completely true....if you happen to be called Raul, live in Brighton where you run a poodle parlour and "married" your officer hasband in a civil ceremony on Bali where the witnesses were a theatre costume designer from Rio and a fat woman who cried all through the ceremony.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

I think that the poor sod is well shot of her!

Duncs:ok:

[Tinribs]

You may feel that the service is way behind the times but there has been change over the years and sometimes the changes have been improvements

A navigator on my squadron in the sixties was court martialled and thrown out for failing to attend a dining-in night

The rational behind it seemed to be; if he won't turn up to eat with you will he be steady in war. My reaction was if he feels the dining in nights are less important than his other undertakings he may be a man of high principle who will be very steady when required.

Anyway he was out and we lost a competent nav

[Clockwork Mouse]

"I left my job in PR to become an RAF wife".

Once in PR, always in PR and I bet she makes a tidy buck out of peddling this tripe. She clearly made no effort to become an RAF officer's wife. Perhaps she believed hubby's PR and didn't realise that she was marrying an officer in a disciplined, hierarchical armed service and not a bus driver.

[Fareastdriver]

I never tried it but in the sixties I was assured by the older and bolder that the wives were ranked the same as their husbands. Should you jump into bed with a wife of a more senior officer than you it wasn't you fault; it was her's for leading you astray.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Tin Ribs
A remarkable story. While I would hesitate to question its veracity, I don't recall "failure to attend a dining in night" being listed as a court martial offence. Unless, of course, the dining in night was in Aden or Borneo and he had decided to remain in UK.

[Pontius Navigator]

Cleaning a quarter for the next occupant and keeping it to a required standard in other ways? She obviously didn't notice when she moved in that someone had done the same for her


Or not.

Having just done a march-in, idly running my hand along the bottom edge of the kitchen worktop it felt a bit rough. It had never been cleaned in years. Superficially clean the more we looked the worse it was.

Tops of cupboards thick with dirt. Cooker seal completely full of gunge.

Some people now just leave and pay the contract cleaning bill. Only thing is the contract cleaners probably just skim clean and hope the next occupants don't notice.

[Biggus]

Clockwork,

Maybe the dining in night was considered a parade?

Certainly failure to attend a parade is still a chargeable offence.....

[oxenos]

You read the Daily Mail?

[ZH875]

Living on an RAF base never felt like home. Everyone was in uniform.


Message to the government, save a fortune and get rid of uniforms, they are not appreciated by idiots.

[Wander00]

I have a dim memory that in the 60s a formal Guest Night was considered a "parade" - not sure about a Dining-In Night

[Clockwork Mouse]

Biggus
In my day dinner nights were indeed considered a parade. However, officers were not "charged" with an offence unless they were caught in bed with their batman, but he could have expected a verbal thrashing from his adjutant or CO and a month's worth of extra duties. A court martial and dismissal from the service seems a trifle over the top.

[ShyTorque]

Should you jump into bed with a wife of a more senior officer than you it wasn't you fault; it was her's for leading you astray.

Damn, if only I'd known.

Chicken Leg, I think the 3 litre Capri probably gave it away :cool:

[Biggus]

Clockwork,

My point was that failing to attend a parade could be the subject of disciplinary action, by whatever method it is administered....

I don't dispute that a CM and dismissal seem over the top - but then I don't know the details of the case.



Returning to the article...

How many Colonels are there with 5 bedroomed houses with driveways at Lyneham?

Different houses for different ranks?.....Hm, that fits in quite nicely with different rents being paid by people on different payscales.

How much was she paying for this quarter compared to civil rental values or the cost of a mortgage? She was getting a fairly reasonable house at a cheap as chips rental I expect.....

Any tenant, inside or outside the military, is required to take reasonable care of the property they are renting. Which is very different from having the house "spotless" all the time!

Complaining about a pregnancy scan from a doctor in DPMs (dressed as a tree?), how about acknowledging the free medical care she was getting! Which doesn't exist any more for dependents.

"There was always the chance we would have to move away completely and make new friends" - you mean he could have been posted away from Lyneham (which apparently he wasn't), something that happens (posting, moving on) to most of the military on a fairly regular basis.....


All in all - total drivel.

[chopper2004]

"I was amazed to discover, for example, that the houses on the RAF base were segregated according to rank. Each estate – or ‘patch’, as it is called – was split into areas for airmen, sergeants and officers. And the higher your husband’s rank, the bigger your house. Colonels were furnished with five bedrooms and a gated driveway."

She doesn't know her service ranks, unless in her mind

1) at the time (1997) she was misled by the appearance of more tri service organisations i,e DHFS, JATEU around and assumed an army officer was running around or living on base :ugh:

2) Might have confused a visiting senior officer from any of the NATO air forces with being an exchange officer albeit a very very senior one and she put 3.5 and 3.5 together as the above and tried for a 4 :ok:

3) Or the Mail could've misquoted or dont know what the hell they were talking about :)

[Dr Jekyll]

She clearly made no effort to become an RAF officer's wife. Perhaps she believed hubby's PR and didn't realise that she was marrying an officer in a disciplined, hierarchical armed service and not a bus driver.

She hadn't joined the RAF herself though. It was just his job. Or is 'RAF officers wife' a job of some kind.

[Biggus]

Dr Jekyll,

Some women elect to make being "an RAF Officers Wife" their "job", fortunately most wives of RAF Officers are far more enlightened!

It is a choice thing....

[Willard Whyte]

Or not.

Having just done a march-in, idly running my hand along the bottom edge of the kitchen worktop it felt a bit rough. It had never been cleaned in years. Superficially clean the more we looked the worse it was.

Tops of cupboards thick with dirt. Cooker seal completely full of gunge.

Some people now just leave and pay the contract cleaning bill. Only thing is the contract cleaners probably just skim clean and hope the next occupants don't notice.

Yup, all the quarters I've moved in to have been fairly grubby on arrival. Of course, one is hardly likely to delay unpacking whilst waiting for DHE to arrange re-cleaning so what's the point in complaining.

Prior to my last 'march out' (what a fabulously pompous title) Mrs WW and decided to pay a cleaner circa £100 to do all the pointless cleaning of picture rails etc. We stooped, pardon the pun, to weeding the garden (and cutting the lawn) ourselves. Wouldn't have minded but it was raining heavily on the day the people from DHE came to inspect, they both trod mud over the freshly shampooed carpets, upstairs and down. I drove past the house about 2 months after I'd moved out, the grass was about a foot long and the weeds had taken over the borders.

A small addition to quartering charges should be made and DHE should foot the bill for bringing quarters up to a suitable standard of cleanliness.

[TheWizard]

I bet "Paul" is happy to have his picture plastered all over the Mail, along with the other 'RCWs'!!:hmm:

[Ken Scott]

Whilst there's a hint of truth in the article it's all grossly exaggerated & something of a caricature - there's never a time at Lyneham (or was....) when all the men would be away, detachments were covered in rotations. Even at FJ stations the squadrons rotate so there would not be a time when there were no men about. Sorry Postie....

As SS points out, there must be a sequel to her last book out. Perhaps 'Paul' isn't being generous enough with the alimony. Nothing like rolling the good name of the RAF in the mud & holding it up to ridicule just to make some cash.

[lsh]

However, rank conscious wives....yes, some were, very. I recall one lady introducing herself at a social function as "Mrs Sqn Ldr E***".



And "Schwarz-slanger" called her "M'aam" all evening too!

Clothing whilst off duty? I was once taken to task for wearing a leather jacket and what was described as "a loud tie".

"Valid point Reg"

lsh
:E

[ShyTorque]

lsh,

Yes, he d-d-d-d- did! ;)

Nothing like a stylish leather jacket (and to be honest, it was nothing like stylish).


Whilst there's a hint of truth in the article it's all grossly exaggerated & something of a caricature - there's never a time at Lyneham (or was....) when all the men would be away, detachments were covered in rotations.

Perhaps "Paul" made sure he was away a lot more than all the other husbands.... ;)

[Wensleydale]

I remember an officer only 3 line whip called by our OC Sqn at a northern base in early 1980s. He demanded to know why so few wives had turned up at the Mess that afternoon to arrange the flowers for that evening's dining in night. It appeared that his wife had volunteered the squadron wives to do this and was upset at such a poor response. He demanded a better response for the future and tried to insinuate that action would be taken against those officers who did not send their wives along in future.

He was not happy when it was pointed out that he could not order the wives about despite his other half's assumptions. Nor was he chuffed when asked if he would write to the employers in the local area to explain why our wives had not turned up for work on the afternoons of future DiNs.

Silly boy.

[Wander00]

As I started a "Toast to the Lasses" at BPOM Burns Night, "For those who don't know me, I come from the corner of the patch not knwn for attendance at flower arranging or the Wives Club".

[St Johns Wort]

Shy, lsh, I suppose that would be Mrs Sqn Ldr (Rtd) The Reverend E*** now, would it?:)

[ShyTorque]

May we be truly thankful. :oh:

[goudie]

......Amen!

[Tankertrashnav]

Bit of thread drift but the references to "Mrs Sqn Ldr Bloggs or wife of Wg Cdr Snooks etc" reminded me of when I went to university as a mature student in the late 1980s. Correspondence from the local authority concerning my grant (remember them?) arrived addressed to my wife as "parent or guardian of ***"

Mrs TTN was not amused!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Mrs TTN was not amused!

Not sure why she would be, Mrs SFFP has effectively been my parent/guardian for the 32 years of our married life :ok:

[Airborne Aircrew]

Not sure why she would be, Mrs SFFP has effectively been my parent/guardian for the 32 years of our married life

Yep... My dear lady is still referred to as my "adult supervision"... :}

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Yep... My dear lady is still referred to as my "adult supervision"... :}

Any married man who argues it's not so is deluded :ok:

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

It seems old customs die hard in some places...only this year, I heard of a Flt Lt's wife holding interviews for a wives' dinner club she wanted to set up on the patch! Oh to be a fly on the wall...

[Guy Willesley]

Sigh.

One day she'll move on and promote herself with something she accomplished on her own.

In the meantime, apologies (even though it's nothing to do with me) to those pictured in the article - none of whom are RCWs as none of them are or have been in the military. It brought back memories of a damn good Summer Ball though!

Last post from this persona I really, REALLY hope.

[air pig]

That was happening in the 80s, but we did have the wife of a retired very very senior officer giving the staff and Wg Cdr consultant surgeon a lot of grief. He had to threaten to have her barred from the hospital by the CO. The retired officer was a true gentleman, talked to anyone and everyone as if the were normal people. Younger pateints could not believe whio he was and what he had done during his service.

Wives and rank, believe it, it happens.

[Willard Whyte]

...none of whom are RCWs...

Not true I'm afraid, based on Mrs WW's experience a few years ago.

[MG]

If it was that rubbish being on the patch then she could always have forced 'Paul' to move out and live in the real world. Many from Lyneham have, so it wasn't impossible!
Personally, the thought of having to live on a patch again at any time in the future fills me with depression.

[High_Expect]

At an isolated training base out west there used to be a running route that involved climbing over a 3 foot chain link fence in the patch, unfortunately to get over the fence meant standing on grass about two foot into the front garden of a Wg Cdrs house. As a certain individual was crossing Mrs Wg Cdr K.... Came storming out shouting "excuse me, excuse me - what do you think you are doing" "erm, going for a run" "do you not know who I am?" "No" "Well I'm Wg Cdrs K.....'s wife" "oh right". "well - what's your name". " oh, I am sorry - I'm the new Stn Cdr and I'm off for a run, good day"

Priceless!

[Whenurhappy]

Article makes a cracking read, but is clearly detached from present reality.

However, on marriage we moved into quarters at Lyneham in 1995, after a year of living together. My boss (a complete ass, and still in) 'damned me with feint praise' with a statement in my F1369: 'Flt Lt WP is now married, and having moved into quarters, I look forward to WP and his wife participating fully in the life of the station'.

But it is also clear that the RAF - and its people - have moved on in the last 15-odd years. I have served in a number of joint organisations and in wider Government and different groups do it differently. I have found that the wives of senior RN officers (Cdrs and above) seem to be the ones that really try to ‘Lord’ it up – possibly because they have little experience of living on a patch, and assume that they have to be the Queen Bee c 1955. I also spent 2 ½ years working for a senior US Diplomat and he expected his staff – and their spouses – to make up numbers at dinner parties on a regular basis. Mind you, he also had a great wine cellar. In my time working with the FCO, I found few diplomats who regularly ‘paraded’ their spouses at official functions – that was largely left to the Defence Attachés/Advisors and their spouses. The FCO Apparatchiks looked on, mildly amused…

On the matter of cleaning quarters, we all have horror stories (mine was only a month ago) but there is an interesting thread running on Arrse concerning alleged impropriety between the cleaning contractors and housing officers.
http://www.arrse.co.uk/pay-claims-jpa/170407-married-quarter-cleaning-service.html (http://www.arrse.co.uk/pay-claims-jpa/170407-married-quarter-cleaning-service.html)

[baffman]

The officers’ mess was very strict and wouldn’t let anyone in unless they were married to an officer or accompanied by one.

While I was there, a female corporal was turned away.

Her response was to marry an officer at a register office nearby and come back the next day with a ring on her finger. They let her in. It was ridiculous.

Read more: RAF Lyneham wife reveals her VERY bizarre life in a military base | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046994/RAF-Lyneham-wife-reveals-VERY-bizarre-life-military-base.html#ixzz1aMquX3aB)Amazing that didn't happen more often! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Wensleydale]

Amazing that didn't happen more often


I heard a story (apocraphal?) that an RAF Officer was engaged (discretely) to an airwoman who did not serve on the same airbase. He asked permission to take her to the summer ball, but the request was refused by the PMC. The officer's response (supported by his fiance) was to go into the local town and hire a pair of escorts for the evening. He took great delight in introducing them to the Stn Cdr, PMC and their guests, and went on to explain who they actually were and why he had to bring alternative female company.

What is actually true, was a Sqn collegue many years ago who was engaged to a civilian employee who worked in Admin wing. Sadly, the PMC (OC Admin) refused to allow her into the mess for any functions because she was not of the appropriate CS grade. :ugh:

[airborne_artist]

I heard a story (apocraphal?) that an RAF Officer was engaged (discretely) to an airwoman who did not serve on the same airbase.

Yet as long ago as the 70s in the Senior Service it was perfectly in order for an officer to bring a Wren to a Wardroom function. The Jenny in question had to have a short interview with the OC WRNS and nothing more was said.

[Fareastdriver]

bring a Wren to a Wardroom function

It wasn't until 1993 that the WRNS became part of the Royal Navy. Before thet they were effectivily treated as civilians even though they could be in thick of the action.

Before the comments I mean wars and suchlike.

[Pontius Navigator]

The late wife of a friend was a keen attendee at wives coffee mornings. She used to go with a 'friend' another wife of on the sqn. The 'friend''s OH got promoted. At the next coffee morning our friend went up to her 'friend' but was told to sit elsewhere as that was the sqn ldr wife of's table.

I wish I had thought to have Mrs PN present at her 1369 debrief with Smiling Jim at ISK.

[airborne_artist]

It wasn't until 1993 that the WRNS became part of the Royal Navy. Before thet they were effectivily treated as civilians even though they could be in thick of the action.


Yet I can well remember the briefing when we arrived at Leeming to be told that WRAFs were very much off limits, and we'd incur the Staish's severe displeasure if we so much as stepped out with one. Same was said to be true of WRACs, but since they all had their legs on upside-down, it was never an issue.

I'll draw a veil over our course leaving night do, when a member of the junior course "entertained" both the OM WRAF stewards in his cabin at the same time :D

[BossEyed]

...an RAF Officer was engaged (discretely) to an airwoman...

[SPELLING POLICE]Well, I should jolly well hope so. It'd be most ungentlemanly to be engaged to more than one at a time. [/SPELL PLOD]

[sycamore]

A-A,who was that then...?

[airborne_artist]

Sycamore - check PMs :E

[langleybaston]

A civilian perspective.

As a Met. man I lived in OMQ at

RAF Nicosia
RAF Guetersloh
RAF Rheindahlen 2 tours

for a total of 14 years between 1961 and 1996.

As my EMR or whatever rose, so did the housing size/ style. So it would in Civvy street.

We adopted an "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" posture, and I must say we encountered very little of the irritations that the article highlights, possibly because I was seen as non-threatening regarding career paths. As far as maintaining a decent OMQ [including oven] surely that is the civilised norm ........
The lady confesses to being loud: such self-analysis should surely precede remedial action?
Portadown Way at JHQ was superb: BBQs in the middle most Wednesdays in season, Maypoles, Father Christmas on a fire-engine, a mix of civvies, Army and RAF ....... we were sorry to leave. Liver now recovered.
Yes there were absurdities: a 1/4 share of an official lawnmower and 1/8 of a roller and I think 1/10th of a ladder. But where else on earth would a middle-ranking civil-servant make-believe sort of Gp Capt get a life with Summer Balls, Jazz and curry in the mess Sunday lunch, Happy hour in the best company in the world?

I haven't addressed the "wife-of" thing, but my wife would happily socialise with anybody civil, and happily cut anybody dead who was rude. And did.

Hope that was worth saying.

[Pontius Navigator]

absurdities: a 1/4 share of an official lawnmower and 1/8 of a roller and I think 1/10th of a ladder

Nothing strange there. My old man bought his first house about 1947-48. It was a private house backing on to a council estate. On the estate were essential tools including a lawn roller and lawn mower.

For a couple of bob we were able to borrow said roller. We did not have to return it as when our time was up the next person collected it.

Communal use equipment was a sensible and necessary thing in the 50s and 60s when pay was low and costs were high. I mean, who needs a lawn mower more than an hour or so a week in summer?

[Ron Cake]

Over many years in MQ's we never came across the indignities decribed in some of these posts. .....must be something about Lyneham that does it.

Although when, as newly weds, we moved into our first MQ, someone complained about the washing being hung out to dry on a SUNDAY. We coundn't stop laughing. To be fair, I think it was more to do with the 'Sabbath' thing than snobbery.

[langleybaston]

As I recall, neither hanging out washing, nor car washing, nor noisy grass cutting [with or without a share of a mower] were "done" on Sundays in RAFG ....... never sure if a German Law, a MQ law, or a custom.

Very civilised. We were happy to fall in line although, as a some-time shift-worker and a Christian, keeping the Sabbath Holy was sometimes problematical.

But then I don't think shops should open on Sundays and am clearly a member of a diminishing minority. Apart from anything else, my son, a fairly senior supermarket manager, has not had Christmas Eve/ Christmas Day/ Boxing Day off as a set in his managerial life. Not an option.

[Chicken Leg]

Apart from anything else, my son, a fairly senior supermarket manager, has not had Christmas Eve/ Christmas Day/ Boxing Day off as a set in his managerial life. Not an option.

Thread drift I know, but I assume he chose his profession and could always walk away?

[goudie]

never sure if a German Law,


It's a German Bye-law. The use of lawn mowers etc. is not permitted from mid-day Sat. to Mon, am Very civilised.

[Wensleydale]

If it was a French bye-law, would the gendarmes issue un Coup de Grass?

[Wander00]

In France the Marie publishes the times when mechanical garden tools - mowers, chain saws, etc, can and cannot be used. Long break daily at lunchtime, not sure whether it is not to disturb lunch, or the visit to the mistress!

[langleybaston]

"Thread drift I know, but I assume he chose his profession and could always walk away?"

Yes of course ...... he wanted RAF as first choice. Any vacancies in light blue for a middle-aged grocer needing, at a guess, a 50k starter?

Bad enough getting the sack, as for walking away ......!

[reynoldsno1]

Spent commissioned time in both the RAF & RNZAF - the latter's MQs were all mixed up according to needs, so a Squadron Leader with 3 kids had exactly the same housing needs as a Cpl with 3 kids - no brainer. I much preferred this egalitarian arrangement ....

[Samuel]

Un-bloody-believable! As a Sqn Ldr RNZAF Rtd, I just asked my wife [MA Hons] if she'd ever come across this and she said: "In their dreams sunshine". As a Flt Lt RNZAF I filled a UK appointment in ANZUK [Singapore] for two years and for a while lived in a former RAF MQ at Hyde Park gate in Seletar, and can honestly say I never came across any of this rank snobbery. It would have been given short shrift by my wife [3rd generation Kiwi] in any case !

I never lived in RNZAF housing in NZ but I do know they weren't segregated according to rank.

[Dan Winterland]

The RAF of the mid to late 80's when I joined was still in the 1930s. Asking permission to get married, having to live on the patch until having been on the Sqn for one year and lots of wives introdusing themsleves with their husband's rank. I had to live on base for my first year, but we had already bought a house 15 miles away from the station. So I was a ''bean stealer'' and pretending to live on base.

But Mrs Wg Cdr expressed great disspapointment that we had chosen not to live on the patch. We discovered why when we received a discreet invitation to a very exclusive type of party - for which this station was famous for! We didn't attend and Mrs W had heard what went on at these events and as a result, didn't have much to do with the organised wives events for the whole of my time in the RAF. It didn't help my career for that tour, but she got involved a bit more on later tours and was mentioned in most of my ACRs.

[Scuttled]

Dan,

Please, please, expand on the last sentence of your post. I am certain that I know what you are saying, but in the context of the paragraph it is hugely open to interpretation!

I have just spluttered a mouthful of red over the iPod....! No offence, but thanks for the laugh.

[500N]

Scuttled

You weren't the only one wondering.

Especially after it followed this sentence
"We discovered why when we received a discreet invitation to a very exclusive type of party - for which this station was famous for! We didn't attend and Mrs W had heard what went on at these events"

[Scuttled]

I have to admit to a little jealousy that myself and Mrs Scuttled never got a similar invite.

And that sentence, coupled with my moniker, doesn't look too good either.

[BEagle]

"We discovered why when we received a discreet invitation to a very exclusive type of party - for which this station was famous for! We didn't attend and Mrs W had heard what went on at these events"

One of those http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/untitled.jpg events, Dan?

When I was holding at RAF Biggin Hill after my pre-Vulcan Buccaneer lead-in course :\ , one of the single living-in WRAF officers was going out with an unmarried officer. Nothing wrong with that, one would have thought. Yet unbelievably this was the era when such things were frowned upon - one was not supposed to show any interest in officers on one's own station....:rolleyes: So they would have to make clandestine arrangements to meet up off-base to avoid the gaze (and displeasure) of the Queen Bee.....

Mind you, what the Queen Bee didn't know was that the fresh supply of moist young chopped Fighter Controllerettes we'd get every few weeks was made to feel particularly welcome....:E

[rh200]

Ahh the old "Old Man Out", used to be a big thing in the remote mining towns.

[Barksdale Boy]

It hasn't quite yet, but this could become as irresistible as Mrs Bloggs 'At Home' was last year. Why do PPruners find this mix of rank, social status, etiquette and downright snobbery so compelling? Perhaps it's the time of year.

[Whenurhappy]

RNZAF MQs - not quite true that they were desegregated. Woodbourne and Hobsonville both had senior officer patches and rules for Messes etc were the same as here - indeed, stricter. A Woman colleague of mine (Flt Lt) met and married a Cpl - the only grief came from her father, a 'dyed in teh wool' Sqn Ldr who had risen through the ranks himself.

Although the formal RAF requirement to get your CO's approval for marriage, when I got married in 1995 I had to get the Stn Cdr's signature on the application for an Archbishop's Special License and had to take an oath in the stn church, with the Padre, just outside the gates at Lyneham.

[Chicken Leg]

MQs were all mixed up according to needs, so a Squadron Leader with 3 kids had exactly the same housing needs as a Cpl with 3 kids - no brainer

No brainer if you're a socialist.

[Pontius Navigator]

Spent commissioned time in both the RAF & RNZAF - the latter's MQs were all mixed up according to needs, so a Squadron Leader with 3 kids had exactly the same housing needs as a Cpl with 3 kids - no brainer. I much preferred this egalitarian arrangement ....

This is a fallacy.

While it is true that both have the same housing needs it is not true that these needs would match either wants or affordability.

In civvie street the cpl might aspire to a 4-bed house but not be able to afford it. The sqn ldr can certainly afford a larger mortgage. That is one reason why quarters should not be desegregated.

Again, in civvie street, would you expect to find the boss of a company both socialising and living near his work force? I think not.

PS

When serving at ISK and living in private accommodation my immediate neighbour was an MACR with another round the corner and a sgt opposite and another on our crew nearby. Two flt lt from our sqn were within 100 yards and another flt lt was on the next estate. There was no one on a lower pay scale than aircrew. You can also sure that a cpl and sqn ldr in the same scale FQ would not pay the same rent - would that be fair?

[goudie]

I lived in MQ's as a SNCO and would not have felt very comfortable living next door to a Sqd/Ldr, or any Officer for that matter, for all the obvious reasons. However when I purchased my own house, not far from the Base, it was on a small new estate of 20 or so houses, of similar build. The residents were a mixture of Officers, SNCO's and a few civvies. Regardless of rank we all jostled along very well, especially at Christmas!

[Jayand]

Truly pathetic, this has nothing to do with socialism but more to do with snobbery! The Cpl might aspire to a four bedroomed house but can't afford it, have you heard yourself?
If the Cpl needs four bedrooms then he should get them, if the Sqn Ldr doesn't then why should he have it?
I can think of nothing worse than living near to all my work colleagues and fellow crew members, it would be just like living in quarters!
The percieved earned eliteism of some of these "Sqn Leaders" will fall by the wayside pretty quickly if they have been made redundant and become just another mister, whilst many of the Cpls (techies esp) go onto highly paid jobs in the civil sector.
This argument reminds me of several incidents in Goose bay many years ago, the dining arrangements were combined messing, The Canadians, Americans,Germans and Dutch were all happy to share a common dining room for a few weeks whilst detatched there.
Not the RAF! they arranged for a small segregated section to be made from partition boards and potted plants so that their officers could dine away from the irks!
History and tradition or snobbery and eliteism?
Whilst in the hangar there were officers only toilets! Their **** was the same as ours and it was proved regurlarly to them!

[Willard Whyte]

Again, in civvie street, would you expect to find the boss of a company both socialising and living near his work force? I think not.Would it be expected? Not necessarily.

Does it happen? Oh Yes.

In a cul-de-sac near me reside those ranking from Wg Cdr down to a married Cpl & SAC, including all ranks in-between, except any Chief Techs strangely.


Not the RAF! they arranged for a small segregated section to be made from partition boards and potted plants so that their officers could dine away from the irks!As Herc crew we always ate in the main dining hall. Got a feeling one of our Sqn bosses once ate in the segregated area. The rest of his crew, officers included, did not.

[Wander00]

I recall at a flying station in Cambridgeshire, then about to become Harrogate-in-the-South and take a large influx of people, we had to shuffle some people out of what ISTR was called "inappropriate" MQs - eg, SNCOs in the officers' patch. Staish decided to call a meeting with those who would need to be shuffled down, and as OC Handbrakes I offered to go with him, but he preferred to play it low key and handle it himself. Next morning, 0830 phone goes and it is the wg cdr at Innsworth who handled Parlaimentary Questions. "Did your boss have a families meeting last night?" "Yes". "Is he likely to have said....". "Life's a bitch then you die" I replied before she completed the question. "Oh, heck", she said, a Petty Officer's wife has complained to her MP (who happened to be the PM!) on two counts, one being moved, and the unsympathetic line by the staish. What she did not know was that he had served on exchange with the USAF, and every second sentence was LABATYD! Resolved eventually, but a lot of grizzling, and that was after we had manipulated the station budget, and the change in the price of aviation and heating fuel, to spend well over a million quid putting in double glazing and central heating into AMQ that in the early 90s still had single glazed metal windows and one lousy coal fire.

[Ken Scott]

Over many years in MQ's we never came across the indignities decribed in some of these posts. .....must be something about Lyneham that does it.

As I've said previously her description is not true of the Lyneham I knew, her's is a gross caricature, so don't disrespect the finest AT base in the RAF!


This argument reminds me of several incidents in Goose bay many years ago, the dining arrangements were combined messing, The Canadians, Americans,Germans and Dutch were all happy to share a common dining room for a few weeks whilst detatched there.
Not the RAF! they arranged for a small segregated section to be made from partition boards and potted plants so that their officers could dine away from the irks!

I've generally found that the RAF OFs & ORs are happy to muck in together (coming from a C130 Sqn we all mix at work & off duty away from base). At Goose Bay we all ate together, non-segregated. At Camp Souter in Kabul the Pongo OFs had separate tables from their men, we all ate together with the latter.

[teeteringhead]

And as we speak combined messing (offs and SNCOs) is working well at RAF Akrotiri ...

..... shame to have to spoil good (sic) stories with facts .....

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Teeters and Ken,

As you both well know it was not always thus and thankfully some of the dinosaur them and us attitudes, as shamefully displayed on here by one or two, are dying out.

Hopefully the class society I spent my many years experiencing is about to become extinct and not a moment too soon :ok:

[Ken Scott]

SFFP,

No, the Victorian attitudes still prevail but much less in the light blue service than either of the others, particularly the brown one which in my experience is positively feudalistic.

[Canadian Break]

Beags - to what did you attribute that moisture?:E

[Airborne Aircrew]

Beags - to what did you attribute that moisture?Beags drool most likely... :}

[thefodfather]

I remember being at Goose not too long as a Jengo and being moaned at the Sqn's Aircrew because I ate with my techies rather than sit in the screened off area. It even got mentioned on my assessment by my Sengo.

[high spirits]

Officer snobbery? I remember having to go into the sncos mess at MPA (when O's Mess was shut). They have poxy little wooden models that represent your section and therefore where you eat. Wo betide you if you actually sat elsewhere and actually tried to make conversation with others....

A more divisive and segregated system I have never seen surpassed.

[Chicken Leg]

Truly pathetic, this has nothing to do with socialism but more to do with snobbery!

If the Cpl needs four bedrooms then he should get them, if the Sqn Ldr doesn't then why should he have it?

No, I can assure you that is socialism. Neither peer group needs four bedrooms unless they decide (presumably of their own free will) to breed to the extent that nothing smaller will suffice. I assume that if you have three or more children, then you need four bedrooms? The desire for four bedrooms doesn't equate to a need and who doesn't desire a bigger house with more bedrooms? The world doesn't owe anyone a living and breeding doesn't change that fact.

The services are without doubt still class based societies. If you disagree with that system, then your morals will prevent you from living, eating or socialising in the Sgt's or Officers' Mess. Is it right? Probably not, but if you don't agree with the system, don't join.

[ZH875]

Officer snobbery? I remember having to go into the sncos mess at MPA (when O's Mess was shut). They have poxy little wooden models that represent your section and therefore where you eat. Wo betide you if you actually sat elsewhere and actually tried to make conversation with others....

A more divisive and segregated system I have never seen surpassed.

Yes we had models, and you tried to sit within your own section, but it was not a sin if you didn't. Conversation was normal as in any SNCO mess in the RAF.

Maybe the SNCO's just didn't want an Hossifer sitting with them talking down at them!.

[goudie]

A more divisive and segregated system I have never seen surpassed.


When I did the Vulcan course at the Woodford factory in '58 the dining facilities were extremely class conscious. As was all factory life then. There were five, yes five, classes of dining facilities. The shopfloor workers sat on benches at long , scrubbed, tables. Foremen sat four to a table and so on. I think the RAF trainees (regardless of rank) were on about level three and we had plastic table clothes and plastic flowers on our table. Even the IT, American owned, company I worked for had separate dining facilities for senior management and Directors. Known as the 'golden trough'.

There will always be a distinction of privilege between ranks because that's how the system operates. An officer eating with his men is a good thing, now and then, but neither he nor they would want it all the time.

[seac]

I heard a story (apocraphal?) that an RAF Officer was engaged (discretely) to an airwoman who did not serve on the same airbase. He asked permission to take her to the summer ball, but the request was refused by the PMC. The officer's response (supported by his fiance) was to go into the local town and hire a pair of escorts for the evening. He took great delight in introducing them to the Stn Cdr, PMC and their guests, and went on to explain who they actually were and why he had to bring alternative female company.

What is actually true, was a Sqn collegue many years ago who was engaged to a civilian employee who worked in Admin wing. Sadly, the PMC (OC Admin) refused to allow her into the mess for any functions because she was not of the appropriate CS grade.



My story , reverses the gender .

As a serving Corporal , at a N Lincolnshire Air Defence base flying English built interceptors, the then wife , who happened to be a reporter on the Louth Standard , was invited to the BofB Ball at the Mess with her husband.

At the time , I still wanted to make a career in the RAF , so worked through all the commisioned ranks up to OC Leafy , to seek permission to attend . He approved, but sought clearance from the PMC , who was Henry P( and I believe an ex OR) who refused . As my wife pointed out to the Staish, when asked not to write the article about the whole saga , I would have been welcome if I had been a rapist.

Unsurprisingly, I PVR'd not long after .

[Thud_and_Blunder]

I had experience of several sides of a pretty-odd-shaped-coin during my time in the military. Combined messing at small stations like Watton and Byron, avoiding sitting at les pompiers table at Le Luc, crew tents and all-ranks 'dining' during GW1, officers-only aircrew crewrooms on board the grey-funnel-line, being served Christmas Dinner (as a squaddie) by the Wuperts then doing the same for the 'chaps' years later... However, anyone thinking that the subject-under-discussion is purely a military matter is mistaken, as goudie and others have suggested.

These days I have the privilege to work for a customer that operates 2 working vessels on duties primarily around the northern part of the British Isles. When the newest of those 2 ships was on the drawing board, the customer had to seek permission from the DTI to include combined messing in her design. A previous ship operated by the same people as recently as the 1970s had up to 7 messes in use at any one time. However, far from snobbishness and feudal custom, the reason this permission had to be sought is that the DTI had to be satisfied that the members of the ships crew would have enough time and space away from supervisory grades to be able to relax when not on duty. Morals and socialism don't factor - maintenance of a happy, functional and efficient ship and crew is what it's all about.

As for people living in accommodation/ owning stuff they can't afford - that's probably part of the reason we find ourselves in our current financial straits, no?

BEags, were you and another ex-Bucc mate cycled through N Luffenham around Sep 1976? Might've met you when on my initial AMTC course.

[parabellum]

Primary reason for segregation is that, whilst doing the job you are paid for, you may one day have to send your subordinates into a situation that is highly dangerous and will probably result in them not coming out alive. Being all good mates around the same table won't make this any easier.

Rank has it's privileges, that is part of the carrot, part of what we work to achieve and has been alive and well in the forces since they first formed up. If it troubles you then don't join.

The only exception, which I found very acceptable, was the all ranks aircrew mess at some RAF stations,(El Adem), when we visited, which seemed to be Officers, WOs and Sgts. A lethal mix for a major PU.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Primary reason for segregation is that, whilst doing the job you are paid for, you may one day have to send your subordinates into a situation that is highly dangerous and will probably result in them not coming out alive. Being all good mates around the same table won't make this any easier.


What a complete load of absolute bolleaux, so far away from actuality to be total and utter dinosaur tosh.

Watch any of the current real time reports from the front line and there are countless examples of JO, SNCO, JNCO and soldier co existing in some of the more dire situations yet there is no blurring of the lines when it comes to getting the job done.

Even us modern day Aircrew mates manage to eat, sleep, live and exist in close proximity and still deal with what Ops has to offer as a team.

The sooner the dinosaurs die out the better .

[Union Jack]

Whilst increasingly bemused at some of the tales that have emerged in this thread, I have been thus far been disinclined to enter the fray on what seems to be a substantially light blue phenomenon, and one that certainly bears no resemblance to anything I have ever experienced whilst serving either ashore or afloat in two navies, I really have to take issue with the words underlined in the following quotation:

It wasn't until 1993 that the WRNS became part of the Royal Navy. Before that they were effectively treated as civilians even though they could be in thick of the action. - Fareastdriver

Quite apart from the fact that, in its original form, the Women's Royal Naval Service was formed earlier than the Royal Air Force, never mind becoming part of the Royal Navy in 1993, I truly cannot believe that any Wren officer or rating, and certainly not one with whom I served, or commanded, would remotely have considered herself as either a civilian, or would have believed that anyone else considered herself as such.

In conclusion, I can't find a more appropriate comment than that made by SFFP just above (and which I hope he won't me repeating), "What a complete load of absolute bolleaux, so far away from actuality to be total and utter dinosaur tosh."

Now leaning back and looking forward to more ripping yarns of stripes on handbags .....:ok:

Jack

[nice castle]

I think the fact that JNCOs and SNCOs having a right to their space when not at work is being overlooked here is dreadfully sad.

Let's all pile into the same married patch together, and find that the NCOs can't relax because 'the Officers might be watching', and all the while, paradoxically, it's the Officers who feel on parade 100% of the time.

Remind me who the winner is in the above situation someone, please?:rolleyes:

Socialists, accept the more subtle benefits of segregation please, and if you can't, then at least appreciate that your input to this is limited.

[Scuttled]

Nice Castle

Absolutely true. The same argument stands for separate messing. An SAC needs to be relaxed and able to stand at the NAAFI bar at the end of the working day and bitch and moan about his sgt, FS and officer whilst not worrying about looking over his shoulder to see if the bloke has just walked in. This is how it should be.

It's a very simple premise. A similar situation exists for SNCOs and officers looking up and down the ranks - or however you want to word it.

I also agree with the carrot argument. Where is the incentive to advance and achieve if you can enjoy the same perks as your superior (eg same housing standard) without striving to be advanced to that level?

The Russians proved this socialist/communist model did not work. The same conflict of interests exists when citizens are as well off on benefits as those who work. Surely this is obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense?

I am sick of the 'entitled' mentality in Britain. Earn it.

And before it starts, there is nothing to do but congratulate the Cpl living in the nice 4 bedroom house, privately, mentioned earlier. Well done to him; maybe he has what he has due to hard work and sensible investment and not sending his money up a wall every night.

[Scuttled]

Seac

Apologies for the second entry, I've just read your post.

Why on earth would you have wanted to/expected to go to an officers mess function as a Cpl? As a guest of a guest? You're just stirring for fun fella, why would you think that would be a good idea? As an nco, surely you were aware of how things work?

As for the comment that your wife made and you apparently agree with, "I'd have been welcome if I were a rapist."

.............. That makes you both sound so dull that your pvr is as welcome a release for those of us still in the RAF as it evidently was for you. Of course rapists are welcome in the mess, obviously. I bet the stn cdr was delighted to be dealing with your wife's nonsence instead of running his unit. Give me strength.

ZH875

The MPA Sgts mess isn't very welcoming really, is it? I've been there too and it really wasn't pleasant. Very tribal.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

The daft thing here is, and it's a point which most of you supposed clever folk have completely missed, that it's only on base that this outdated class system exists.

As has been mentioned there are squillions of examples of enlisted folk living happily in their own homes alongside everyone from bin man to bank manager.

The most popular place on a Wednesday night at Lyneham was the NAAFI Bop, so much so that a Station Order was written forbidding SNCO and Officers attending. Both said messes had plenty of young folk who wanted nothing more than a few beers, a dance and to socialise with like minded similar aged folk. If they had gone to a bop in Swindon no one would have batted an eyelid but mixing with the enlisted filth was made a crime.

It's time for the dinosaurs to die :ok:

[teeteringhead]

I agree with Union Jack about the WRNS not being civilians. The way I heard it was that at one time - maybe always? - a WRNS officer had to spend some time as a rating, rather like all coppers have to do time on the beat first.

Ergo, however unlikely in practice, all could theoretically be considered "potential officers".

Heard that separately from a couple of (light blue) mates who both married Jennies - any confirmation from the Dark Blue??

As to "segregated" housing, I think SFFP above misses the point. It's doesn't matter who your neighbours are - if they are in a different organisation. Which kind of kills the "class" argument.

When the then newly acquired Milady Teeters and self first moved into quarters, she too raised a beautifully formed eyebrow. The I said (she was a nurse):

"How would you fancy living next door to matron?"

And suddenly she understood ..........

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

SFFP,

I think that one of he points being raised here is that SNCOs and Offrs being prohibited from going to the NAAFI bop is for the benefit of the troops. It is in order that they can have a whinge and moan about the chain of command without having to look over their shoulders; it is not because they are perceived as being 'unclean'. Because, as I am sure you are aware, there are some folks in the chain that are unfamiliar with/unappreciative of 'constructive criticism';)

Duncs:ok:

[goudie]

Hierachy privelege is not soley the domain of the Armed forces, as has been mentioned earlier.
A company once based its company car allocation, according to seniority, on the Ford Cortina, of which there were 18 models. A junior salesman was given a basic two door saloon whilst the MD drove a Ghia. When a new salesmen questioned why he had only a two door model, the MD told him it was because Ford didn't make a one door model!

[Exascot]

SFFP, Duncs has just put forward exactly the point I was thinking. Also, not good for an officer to be present when the occasional fight breaks out. Also how would you like Happy Hour in the OM to be open to all? The buggers would probably nick all the chips :eek:

There are plenty of opportunities for mixed functions on the Squadron or unit. And, how many times have we had a poking in the chest from one of the men on these occasions when the beer has been flowing? Occasionally, almost essential, but not all the time.

An aside, when my wife was in the nursing officer's mess there was no bar. You had to knock on the door of matron's suite and ask for a glass of sherry which was carefully measured out from the decanter in her cocktail cabinet. Maximum of two glasses an evening.

Do I recall correctly that decades ago no officer below the rank of Flt Lt was allowed to keep booze in their rooms in the OM?

[Widger]

Shame about the thread drift here in what started life as a discussion about what is, a peculiarity of living on RAF Married patches. I have never lived on an Army patch but NEVER came across wives pulling rank in the RN.

As we moved onto the subject of living in Single Living Accomodation, I remember that not so long ago , you needed to get permission from the mess president to even have one's wife stay overnight during functions! On the subject of booze, there are two sides to the argument, you can treat people like adults or encourage them to drink alcohol in the bar provided, which improves the mess profits and ensures that others can keep an eye on those who are drinking too much.

Remember though, we are talking about Military Service here not Tesco's or the NHS and persons being subject to Queen's regulations.

[Chicken Leg]

Also how would you like Happy Hour in the OM to be open to all? The buggers would probably nick all the chips

Chips? Chips?? Maybe in a RAF Offrs' Mess, but in our Mess, it was swan sandwiches - with crusts removed, of course!

Sigh........ Chips, how quaint!

[Barksdale Boy]

Remove the crusts from swan sandwiches?! How irredeemably petit bourgeois.

[Melchett01]

Remove the crusts from swan sandwiches?! How irredeemably petit bourgeois

In our Mess, we have a steward to remove the crusts for us. Standards and all that.

[Exascot]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32684975/Happy%20Hour

[parabellum]

What a complete load of absolute bolleaux, so far away from actuality to be total and utter dinosaur tosh.




Sorry to have pricked your balloon SFFP, you must be one of the newer fellows, or is just an in growing chip? Obviously you have never been in the position of sending the lads out? Thought not. Never entered your head that the armed forces actually involved fighting rather than just socialising?

It isn't all about pissing it it up when every opportunity prevails. When based in Ripon, Yorkshire, there were many, many pubs where we all met, all ranks, mixed, in Aden we shared every amenity, when 'Up Country'.

If the Dinosaurs die then so will the basic tenets that keep the armed forces from becoming just another great big huggy fluffy and totally useless Malcolm Club.

[threeputt]

Sqn Ldrs and above or officers over the age of 30 were permitted to keep and consume alchohol in their rooms.

3p:ok:

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

With regrads to the article, I noted that one of the writers former neighbours has commented; she didn't appear to think much of Annie Waller.

Duncs:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

At ISK there was an egalitarian movement for SNCO aircrew to use the OM Scruffs' bar for post-flight debriefs. The most resolute rejection of this move came not from the officers but some SNCOs and most Masters.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

or is just an in growing chip?

How utterly unexpected that was :rolleyes:

Sorry you and a few others do not get it but the reality is that at home base the class system is alive and kicking whilst off base or even on the front line folk seem to be able to co exist quite nicely indeed :ok:

[Scuttled]

SFFP

It's only you harping on about class. The 'chip on shoulder' comment keeps being thrown at you as that is how you come across.

As has been stated pretty clearly many times, it's not a class thing - it's a discipline thing. Simplistically:

a. SAC, bad day, drinks too much, shouts a bit in the NAAFI but can't (luckily) grab his sgt or Rodney by the neck and tell him what he thinks of him. Next day hangover, no harm done.

b. SNCO/Rodney, bad day, drinks too much, gets over emotional and makes an arse of himself. Other parties haven't seen it, next day hangover, apologies to peers, no sniggering airmen/sgts/officers (del as necessary), no harm done.

I made this point 10 posts back; it's for the protection of all ranks. I'm overseas without any messing system and I do enjoy a beer after work a few nights a week. I have found a bar that the lads don't use at all which is now my local, or mess bar, for the reasons outlined above. However I will happily join them for the international rugby, before leaving them to it again so I don't get in the way.

It is that simple.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Strangely enough I have managed to go off down route with a mixed rank crew for years now with hardly any occurances of the problems you suggest.

Plenty of young airmen/women have come along as SVC's, ATSY, Movers etc etc and have managed to include themselves without any problems what so ever. We all manage to work together and socialise together and generally get along fine.

The great beauty of this is the cross pollination that occurs with non Aircrew folk suddenly realising that most of the negative crew room talk with regards to us grow bags is tosh. When they realise that most of us NCA are ex tradesmen and that pilots are in general very approachable and thoroughly nice individuals who will happily share their experiences of how to be, so to speak.

I fully accept that to some I will always be seen as an uppity baldrick with a chip on my shoulder but in my 37 years I have only ever seen this class divide thing as a hindrance as opposed to a help.

Sgt Smith or FG Off Bloggs go to the local pub, pull a very nice young lady, take her back to the mess and give her the good news and no one bats an eye lid.

Sgt Smith or FG Off Bloggs go to another bar on camp pull a very nice young airwoman take her back to the block and give her the good news and there is all hell to pay.

What the **** is that all about:confused:

[Willard Whyte]

With regrads to the article, I noted that one of the writers former neighbours has commented; she didn't appear to think much of Annie Waller.My wife and I lived there at the time too. Our experience backs up Annie's general impression; perhaps said contributor is one of the RCWs in question. There were some deeply unpleasant and anti-social folk on the patch a few years ago, and Annie was not of that particular 'clique'.

[goudie]

SFFP

I think you're confusing the camaraderie that exists between aircrew and ground crew, when going down route and on detachments, with the efficient running of an operational RAF Base. The efficient running of the Base is Dependant on everyone living by the rule book. After 37 years service I thought you would have realised that.

[Fitter2]

Long ago, when the RAF was a different world, and Yatesbury was a busy electronics school, in the interests of social life there was a weekly Bingo night run by one of the officers' wives, and a few of her friends came to keep her company. Mysteriously,when it came to the accompanying raffle at the end of the evening, the prizes were selected by the organiser after the ticket holder was determined, with the good stuff going to her friends.

A boycott of the event for a month, with a discreet word to the SWO resulted in a compromise where a Corporal's wife ran the raffle.

Conversely, where sport was involved rank appeared irrelevant during the activity.

Inter-rank occasions work somewhat better than RCW ones, in my experience.

[Exascot]

Threeput, Thank you. I am sure that somewhere in storage back in the UK I have the Mess Rules book for NHT for 1979. It would make great reading now.

[Pontius Navigator]

Goudie, quite right. Down route or on Det you all muck in together and effectively outside the CoC.

[BEagle]

Exascot / Threeput, I thought the cut-off was 29 years old?

Anyway, at RAFC Cranwell in 1973 I used the boot of my MG Midget parked out in the cold - much better at keeping things cool than my room was.

Is there still some rule about not being allowed to take some alcohol with you on the MPA airbridge unless you're either some civvy contractor or at least a Sqn Ldr? When I finally made Sqn Ldr Spec Aircrew, I made a point of taking half a bottle of scotch with me to quaff at half-time in the ASI pig pen. Well, not all of it, of course, just a little sharpener to dull the joy of 'Pitch Black' (yet again) on the next leg if the videoplayer batteries hadn't all died.

[Jig Peter]

"Way back when" my brother-in-law, a young industrial chemist on his way to fame and fortune accepted a middle management post with a brewery in Norfolk. This was a new thing for the company, as they had never had a chemist of any kind in all their history. On his first day, my b-in-l was invited to select his company car from a list he was shown. "I'd like the Rover", he said, all smiles "Oh no" came the reply, Rovers are for Directors" (I did say it was a long time ago). "Ok then, I'll take the Triumph saloon". "Sorry, but 6-cylinder cars are for Senior Managers".
He was allowed to choose a Standard Vanguard, a choice accepted by Personnel rather grudgingly as his was a new staff position and there was no precedent "But it's a bit big for Middle Managers, you know".

Compared with that, I found the RAF very un-class-conscious ...

Years later, after leaving the Service, I was surprised to find that De H's at Hatfield had no less than 5 Dining Rooms, called "Messes", all segregated into sections for tradesmen, middle and senior management.
I gather that that was all changed in an early effort to cut down expenses.
Working in Germany some years afterwards for an AEG subsidiary, all workers, including the MD, ate in the same dining hall, which only seemed sensible, for at least most of us knew what everybody looked like.

[Ron Cake]

So Transport crews all muck in together when they're down the route do they? In the late 60s they didn't. In the transit hotel at Muhurraq (Britannia House was it - or was that Khormaksar?) the bar was sectioned off by a screen. On one side Officers and on the other, NCO aircrew. You had to lean round where the partition ended at the bar to socialise.

Looking back it all seems a bit daft.

[pulse1]

Years later, after leaving the Service, I was surprised to find that De H's at Hatfield had no less than 5 Dining Rooms, called "Messes", all segregated into sections for tradesmen, middle and senior management.

I was once a "young industrial chemist" and in my experience companies engaged in aeronautical work (e.g. Dowty Rotol) were far worse for this kind of segregation. I had always assumed it was because they worked closely with the RAF and MoD.

When the British class ridden disease came to company cars it was ridiculous and the motor industry exploited it perfectly.

[Old-Duffer]

Can't recall if we've had the:

Officers and their Ladies
NCOs and their Wives
Other ranks and their Women

Two accounts from my past spring to mind on this Thread.

First, I organised a dinner at a well known Jaguar base near Norwich. Dress was No: 5 or DJ. The NCOs who attended turned up their No: 5s and a great evening was had by all.

Second, I organised a dinner at Wycombe where the principal external guest was a female officer whose husband was a corporal. There was never any suggestion that he should not attend and the 2**'s main concern was that he MUST BE THERE. Again no problem.

I think we make too much of this 'rank and status' thing. There are good reasons why it's there and it is no different from civvy street, except that it might be more 'formalised' than 'implied'.

During a long but exceptionally undistinguished career, I took the view that if I had to throw the weight of my rank around, in order to make things happen, then it was most probably (though not always) my failure.

Old Duffer

[Pontius Navigator]

So Transport crews all muck in together when they're down the route do they? In the late 60s they didn't. In the transit hotel at Muhurraq (Britannia House was it - or was that Khormaksar?) the bar was sectioned off by a screen. On one side Officers and on the other, NCO aircrew. You had to lean round where the partition ended at the bar to socialise.

Looking back it all seems a bit daft.

Ron, digging into the memory cells and back 47 years, I think Khormakksar had two. The "Merryfield" IIRC, aircon and near the flight line and therefore used by the aircrew and the Red Sea (?) non-aircon and used by the groundcrew including gnd eng Os.

[Wensleydale]

Falkland Islands, RAF Stanley Floatel, 1985.

The ORs had a club/bar on the other side of the Landrover park: every Friday evening was a Bring a Boss night. All went well until one of the lads had a little too much to drink, saw the WRAF who he considered his girlfriend talking to another chap, and decided to take action. One assault with beer bottle on an officer later and said young lad no longer has a career. (And all Bring a Boss nights cancelled).

Its why the Orderly Officer sent the orderly corporal to sort out any trouble in the NAAFI - the consequences of any assault on an officer are severe. Alcohol, Young Airmen, and Officers do not mix!

[Pontius Navigator]

WD, we had a similar incident, or rather we were looking after the airman awaiting courts martial.

The case was cut and dried. He had struck an officer. The officer at the time was 'dancing' with an airwoman to whom the airman was about to become engaged.

The mitigating circumstances were set out in MAFL. The airman was mightily relieved to receive a mere fine of over £700 - well over £1000 in todays money.

The officer of course was blameless but was asked to consider whether a career in the Royal Air Force was his best course of action. He agreed that a PVR might be a good idea.

It might be from the age of dinosaurs but in a civilian court would the result have been any different?

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Scuttled, I think that if you read it again the then wife , who happened to be a reporter on the Louth Standard , was invited to the BofB Ball at the Mess with her husband.

Then you may understand what seac was on about.

Back to the thread....It seems clear to me that the woman was unsuited to her primary role as wife of Flt Lt Peter.:E She's also so thin skinned that she would never have survived overseas life in the 60's. If she was so loud(her words) she was clearly in denial because to take offence at the oddities of RAF life shows a sad weakness of character. My wife just told the a*****les to foxtrot oscar until they learned some manners. It worked..... I retired as a Flt Lt:{

[BEagle]

I was a gobby girl from Yorkshire, 6ft tall and very loud. I knew I was never going to quite fit in but I hoped that I would still make lifelong friends.
And she was suprised at the response her behaviour elicited?

:rolleyes:

[Scuttled]

Romeo,

No, I saw the detail and stand by my comments. The invite was obviously sent on the assumption that the lady's husband was a civilian. Bad research perhaps. The NCO should've realised this and minimised the embarrassment to all by letting the PMC know, and his wife taking a colleague along as a guest. That would be the adult approach with no offence caused all round.

I've been there in those exact circumstances in the past, (apart from my better half being a welfare guru, not a journo). I was not offended, it's the game we are in. I joined up at 16 and went through the ranks, including NCA, before commissioning. For the record I don't regret a day of my long winded crawl through the ranks although obviously time constrains my, ahem, career ceiling. And yes, SFFP, I agree with you and others that it is fine down route or on det. But it takes a special kind of JR to know the time and place to relax things or 'formalise them up.' Luckily the majority of our people have this skill set.

Multi-engine and mixed rank crews are a different matter both in the air and on the ground, but the system works well. No room for rank there, only the right man in whichever seat is key at that point in time. NCA have always been an anomaly in this way.

I mean no offence to seac, although I did think the rapist comment was juvenile to say the least, but the tried and tested messing system is there for a reason. It works. The Americans hugely regret the demise of their similar messing system; it's all but gone and they are worse off for it.

[Scuttled]

Sorry for the thread drift, I actually think it's more interesting than the story of the vacuous, 'self unaware' woman we are meant to be talking about.
;)

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Scuttled, fair comment. By the way I'm with you, more or less, just have no experience of NCA so cannot comment.
ps. There were no OMQ's for JO's when I was in RAFG, so had to live in Wg Cdrs MQ. You can imagine the consternation that caused amongst all my Senior Officer neighbours, particlarly their wives!:rolleyes:

[Scuttled]

Got to be worth picking up a rusty washing machine from the tip for the front garden for a day or two I would've thought, in those circumstances.

The prostrate Mrs Wing-Commanders could've been used for recussitation training by the RAF Regiment.

[Exascot]

Strangely enough I have managed to go off down route with a mixed rank crew for years now with hardly any occurances of the problems you suggest.

Never had a problem. I recall an incident where our Gp Capt escort officer had a injured foot and was hobbling around with a walking stick. He was conversing with a rather attractive lady at the bar and invited her to dance. He was whistling her around the dance floor sans stick completely oblivious of his injury. One of our stewards picked up the stick from by the bar, shouted, 'It's a miracle, it's and miracle' and promptly threw said stick into the swimming pool. I suggested the following morning that he should apologise to said gentleman. No repercussions, and indeed years later I reminded the Gp Capt of this incident and he said that he did in fact find it mildly amusing.

As has been mentioned in this thread; a crew down the route is a completely different matter to back at base.

[Tankertrashnav]

On tankers we often went overseas with a crew chief in the sixth seat. Over in the States, for example, it would all be first name terms. Also, with the crew possibly sharing 3 hotel rooms, one guy would share with the crew chief and no-one thought this was a problem.

Back home, down on the flight line we would revert to "sir" and "chief" once again without any problem or resentment. Seemed pretty simple to us.

[RedhillPhil]

Going back to the original thread I would make the following thoughts/observations (I believe that the current word is "take").
Pa joined in 1950 and slowly worked his way up to F/Sargeant. At his attempt to go up to W/Officer he was taken to one side and told that Ma would never be an occifer's wife. Ma told me this some years after he'd retired, she was still angry about it.
Housing. Definately improved as you ascended the ladder. We spent a few years at Gaydon. When the camp closed - long after we left for Sopley in 1966 - the OMQ were sold as private accomodation, the AMQ were sold to the council.
The woman does sound a bit Hyacynth Boucketish but I think that she's broadly right.

[Brian 48nav]

Your post reminds me of a couple of my 'en-route' experiences.

New Year 70/71 u/s in Antigua for 6 days ( wonderful apart from lack of female company!); Flt Lt captain had single room, MEng refused to share with any other NCO, so second Flt Eng' a Flt Sgt refused to share with the ALM, a Sgt,who refused to share with the 'liney' who was either a Cpl or SAC.

Only 2 sharing - yes you've guessed it! Fg Off Nav and Fg Off co-pilot. The latter, fresh out of Sleaford Tech, was a bit of a pompous git ( hope he's lightened up since his famous piano playing and singing son took up with the Dahl girl!) and remarked one day, 'Its not right being in the same hotel as the other ranks' - 'Why not?' says I - 'If one of them became drunk it could be very awkward if we had to order him to bed'. 'Pete' says I,'Normally its the young Fg Off Co' or Nav who gets pissed and has to be carried to bed by an NCO'.

Early '72 young Flt Lt B48N was detachment commander (don't laugh!) in Nairobi when lots of Ascots were collecting pongoes from their annual Kenya exercise.

Due to great timing the East African Trade Fair was on at the same time and hotel rooms were at a premium. No prob' all the Herc and Belfast guys were happy to share. But, having noticed I had a VC10 due, I sent a signal to Upavon, copied to all the Changi Slip stations, stating the problem and please do not bring female crew members ( just loadies and stewards in those days).

You've guessed it again! Mighty 10 arrives and out steps a female loadie.I asked the captain ( 'Are you a real Sqn Ldr or just a VC10 skipper!) had he seen the signal. The obnoxious barsteward replied he had ignored it and didn't I realise that he and his crew would be rejoining the Changi slip at the next stop.

I was saved by the Herc crew who arrived 10 minutes later. A Lyneham wing crew, 5 real Sqn Ldrs plus one NCO, and they said 'Don't worry Brian, we saw your signal and are happy to double up'.

[Pontius Navigator]

Brian 48nav, so, 1972, that would have been adjacent to my story of the nav who was duffed up and then got his revenge. Can you verify?

TTN Over in the States, for example, it would all be first name terms. Also, with the crew possibly sharing 3 hotel rooms, one guy would share with the crew chief and no-one thought this was a problem.

Back home, down on the flight line we would revert to "sir" and "chief" once again without any problem or resentment.

I bet it was the AEO that doubled up with the CC. Doubling up was sensible as it freed up a whole lot of drinking tickets.

Don't know the period but I guess you referred to Mk1s. Later, on 8, in the 80s some called the CC at home by name rather than Chief probably because Shack crew chiefs were sgts and not chiefs. The OC at the time issued an edict (he was always issuing edict which, as a consequence were largely ignored) that we were to call them sgt, cpl or whatever. We asked one chief what he preferred, Chief or Ben? He said if you use my name it shows you know me. If you use my rank you either have good eyesight or are guessing.

And down route? Quite the norm for a flt lt to serve a full fry breakfast to all the SLF lounging about the floor of the dreaded beast.

[Brian 48nav]

Have you deleted your duffed-up story?

Found it now - I was looking at the wrong thread.

Not heard that story, certainly not me. But I have to confess I was laid out in the bar at Sharjah in Jan' 70, by a training Captain I had been taking the mickey out of ( terrible English) - or so I was told - I was too pissed to remember or feel anything! I've never touched spirits since.

Sadly,Tony B the captain,died in the Herc crash at Colerne in Sept' '73.

[RFCC]

On tankers we often went overseas with a crew chief in the sixth seat. Over in the States, for example, it would all be first name terms. Also, with the crew possibly sharing 3 hotel rooms, one guy would share with the crew chief and no-one thought this was a problem.

Back home, down on the flight line we would revert to "sir" and "chief" once again without any problem or resentment. Seemed pretty simple to us.

As an ex Victor Crew Chief I concur with TTN's comments. Never really had any problems. Back home some of the crews might use my first name, others would use rank - didn't bother me either way. We all new the system.

...and it often depended on who else was in earshot. :oh:

It was the same with ex colleagues who had been elevated to Hofficer status - just use rank it saves any embarrasment.

[adminblunty]

As SNCO I saw this from a number of perspectives, in Goose Bay my immediate boss the Staish invited me to his parties in his OMQ with the unit officers. It was first name terms at his house and sir etc back at work.

In 2005 when I was posted to HQSTC my civilian wife decided she'd like to join the STC book club. She'd previously set up and run the Waddington book club, which was open to all ranks including spouses. So at STC she phones up the book club leader, whose first question is what rank is your husband and what does he do. My wife answered I was a Sgt and I worked in Plans, the shutters came down immediately with a sorry we are full. The fact the wife had 2 degrees, was a paediatric specialist, articulate and intelligent didn't matter. The fact that between us we earned a lot, that I drove a shiny sports car to 1 site everyday and we owned a 3 bed detached in a nearby village didn't count, I wore the wrong rank slide and that wasn't good enough for the Senior officers wifes in the STC book club which met in the Officers Mess.

So my wife went on to run the village pre-school, where we met a number of officers, SNCOs and airmen who we socialised with, along with a host of civies including the MD of Dreams and the partner in a top 5 law firm, who were all lovely and didn't judge us on the rank slide I wore.

I've also seen inverted snobbery from the wifes of airmen bitching about the wife of Sqn Ldr Blah for no good reason. We didn't have any time for them either.

Out in Civie street I just don't see it, I live on a street with a number of RAF and ex-RAF, we all get on and have laugh and a drink on occasion, which is the way it should be. Finally at work we have long long retired Army Major who insists on being addressed as Major, everyone thinks he's a complete cock, don't do it guys.

[Jig Peter]

The Boss of the first (and quite small) firm for which I worked after leaving the Air Force was a recently retired Air Vice Marshal. far above my (former) status. Knowing his exalted position, I naturally called him "Sir", to which he replied that we were both "Out" now and first names were the order of the day. He was very good to work with he was the Boss and I was his No.2, with a pretty free hand.

[Shack37]

Never had a problem. I recall an incident where our Gp Capt escort officer had a injured foot and was hobbling around with a walking stick. He was conversing with a rather attractive lady at the bar and invited her to dance. He was whistling her around the dance floor sans stick completely oblivious of his injury. One of our stewards picked up the stick from by the bar, shouted, 'It's a miracle, it's and miracle' and promptly threw said stick into the swimming pool. I suggested the following morning that he should apologise to said gentleman. No repercussions, and indeed years later I reminded the Gp Capt of this incident and he said that he did in fact find it mildly amusing.


Reading between the lines, it seems to me that you did indeed "have a problem" by the very fact you "suggested" that the steward apologise for what was in fact a very amusing comment/action which caused no harm to anyone. This is obviously explained by one being a gentleman and t'other being a steward.

I also have experience of social intermingling between aircrew and groundcrew on Shack detachments where we all knew where to draw the line between a shared pint or two and "business as usual" next morning. I don't however recall having to apologise for a joke or some inter rank banter from the previous evening.

[goudie]

inter rank banter from the previous evening.

Wasn't/Isn't there an unwritten rule that 'what was said in the bar, stayed in the bar'. Having said that, as in all social situations there is a limit to what one can get away with. Hopefully common sense will prevail.
And yes, next day the formalities of Service life prevailed.

I agree Shack, in that instant an apology was not really called for.

[Ray Dahvectac]

adminblunty - as the wife of a 'mere' Sergeant, your wife was not - in the Air Force's eyes - entitled to read books!

I recall a friend who had recently been promoted to MACR commenting to the boss one day how delighted he was that since his promotion he and his wife were permitted to read books and drink sherry. Barrack Stores had been round to his quarter earlier to deliver the additional MQ inventory items to which he was now entitled: a bookcase and six sherry glasses. :ugh:

[Pom Pax]

how delighted he was that since his promotion he and his wife were permitted to read books and drink sherry
I hope he read the piece that said......one should have only one glass of sherry before dinner as a second glass spoils the palate.

[Exascot]

I recall a friend who had recently been promoted to MACR commenting to the boss one day how delighted he was that since his promotion he and his wife were permitted to read books and drink sherry. Barrack Stores had been round to his quarter earlier to deliver the additional MQ inventory items to which he was now entitled: a bookcase and six sherry glasses.

If I recall correctly he still wouldn't have been able to play cards though. Card Table: 'officer' for the use of.

Reading between the lines, it seems to me that you did indeed "have a problem" by the very fact you "suggested" that the steward apologise for what was in fact a very amusing comment/action which caused no harm to anyone. This is obviously explained by one being a gentleman and t'other being a steward.


I think that he was hoping that everyone would have forgotten the following day and didn't want to get a b:mad:ing which he didn't.

[Phil_R]

I suppose this would be a reasonable interlude to ask this, and I promise I'm not taking the piss.

What exactly is the purpose of having a differentiation between officers and other ranks? I've read the official explanation about management responsibility and so forth, but it seems rather arbitrary and class-conscious in a society where that distinction hasn't existed in civilian life for decades, at least at any level more than you get in any professional organisation.

A lot of what's in that story seems a little ungenerous of the writer, and even I know only about the RAF to realise there aren't any colonels in it, for instance. But some of it does bring to mind some of the things I've noticed.

Surely all this division is just... well... divisive?

P

[Exascot]

What exactly is the purpose of having a differentiation between officers and other ranks?

My dear chap :ugh: :eek:

[Phil_R]

Yeah, yeah, I know. Whenever I've raised this before, people have looked at me as if I'd suggested marrying a rhinoceros. It appears to be deeply ingrained into the military psyche.

Officers, I mean. Not going down to Moss Bros for a rhino.

[Exascot]

Moss Bros :ugh::eek:

Gieves and Hawkes, old boy.

[Biggus]

Phil_R,

What exactly do you mean by "..a differentiation between officers and other ranks.."?

Are you referring to:

Pay
Conditions, e.g. housing/messing/postings/office space...etc/etc
Qualifications
Responsibility
Selection
Etc
Etc
All of the above?


Are you seriously telling me that in civilian life there is no "differentiation" in at least some of the above list (e.g. pay/office size/perks/etc) between the very top and the very bottom in most companies?



Perhaps I'm being a bit thick today - it wouldn't be the first time, but I'm not quite sure what your exact point is? Are you just referring to some concept of perceived social status?

[Phil_R]

Are you seriously telling me that in civilian life there is no "differentiation" in at least some of the above list (e.g. pay/office size/perks/etc) between the very top and the very bottom in most companies?

No, of course not.

I'm just a little confused as to why there needs to be anything more than that. Even without that, without the differences in pay and conditions, in any well-run organisation everyone's fully aware of what the pecking order is in some detail, even without access to the financial records of everyone else.

What the military seems to do is to draw a line down the middle of the workforce and decide that part of it is such a vastly superior human being to the other half that it would be demeaning to even socialise together. This comes off as institutionalised snobbery. I appreciate that this was normal at the time the RAF was founded, but I'm not sure what the purpose of it is - especially as maintaining two (or three) sets of everything is clearly expensive. My father reports that large manufacturing concerns in the 1970s would often have separate silver-service dining accomodation for the high-level management, but this does not happen, at least not very much, anymore.

I am aware of the need for a certain remove between management and those they manage. This is often a problem in my field, film and television, because the atmosphere of a film set is generally informal but yet there is still a very well-defined pecking order to which those present must be sensitive. I get the impression the same is sometimes the case in the military (particularly the RAF which can sometimes seem extremely informal until it needs not to be).

But at the end of the day we don't pretend the rest of the crew are our social inferiors and wear a system of merit badges just to rub it in their face, if you see what I mean.

P

[Biggus]

One point at a time....

Merit badges.

Two points to make here.

First of all regarding "badges" reflecting trade achievements - e.g. flying badges, para wings, submariners dolphins. These "badges" serve several purposes. Firstly it allows other people in the military to determine someones specialization at a glance. Secondly, these "badges" are usually earned at the end of very hard training courses. They represent a visual record and obvious reward for great effort and achievement on the part of the individual concerned - they have "earned" their wings, dolphins, etc. They are generally worn with great pride and help to generate "esprit de corps" - something that is probably sadly lacking these days in civilian life.

At the end of the day the military still go to war, fight, and die for their country. Quaint as it might sound, it is still the case that the military do not generally risk life and limb for David Cameron or the Queen, but rather for their friends, colleagues, regiment, Sqn, ship, etc. A strong esprit de corps can be the difference between winning and losing a fight - that's one of the reason for some "badges".

My second point. Some of the "badges" I assume you refer to are rank insignia. The concept here is quite simple. On meeting someone, whether it be in peacetime at an office meeting, or in a firefight in Afghanistan, you instantly know a persons rank, and also their likely responsibility, experience, who is in charge, etc. This also allows for the quaint concept of paying "compliments" to a senior rank.

I'm sure other people can add various comments on the subject of "merit badges", above were my immediate thoughts, and as a two fingered typist, who is being nagged by his wife to do something else, that's as much as I have to say for now...!

[Corporal Clott]

Banter chip to on

How about this for a ground trades badge?

http://www.koolbadges.co.uk/images/thumbnails/underscheiver-200x200.jpg

Banter chip off

[Ron Cake]

EXACOT quote: 'If I recall correctly he still wouldn't have been able to play cards though. Card Table: 'officer' for the use of.'

....nor would he have been issued with a 'Brushes, Crumb' and so would have been unable to freshen the tablecloth between courses at dinner.

These things count, you know.

[Pontius Navigator]

attempt to go up to W/Officer he was taken to one side and told that Ma would never be an occifer's wife. Ma told me this some years after he'd retired, she was still angry about it.

I know one FS whose wife was really driving for a commission. They even bought a house near the married patch hoping for brownie points by association. I suspect she was as much a drag on his career as he was.

On commissioning boards one question we had to ask was 'what does your wife think . . . ' And I know one knocker who was commissioned and they separated not long after.

the OMQ were sold as private accomodation, the AMQ were sold to the council.

I don't know if the council got the AMQ at Nocton Hall but the old OMQs grew white picket fencing, ornamental flower beds, conservatories, uPVC etc etc. The AMQ patch grew dumped cars, spare engines, long grass (at least DHE cut the grass) etc etc.

[Phil_R]

On meeting someone, whether it be in peacetime at an office meeting, or in a firefight in Afghanistan, you instantly know a persons rank, and also their likely responsibility, experience, who is in charge, etc.

Yes, of course, absolutely fine (and I didn't mean to importune anyone's merit badg... er, trade specialisation insignia).

My query was more about this whole officers/not officers delineation. As I say most of the military people I've spoken to about this tend towards a spluttering disbelief that things could possibly be any other way, which I suspect may be the reason!

Also:

I don't know if the council got the AMQ at Nocton Hall but the old OMQs grew white picket fencing, ornamental flower beds, conservatories, uPVC etc etc. The AMQ patch grew dumped cars, spare engines, long grass (at least DHE cut the grass) etc etc.

We drove past the entrance to Coltishall several times before noticing someone in a blue suit, having assumed it was a council housing estate. In the middle of the countryside, for some reason.

P

[Melchett01]

What the military seems to do is to draw a line down the middle of the workforce and decide that part of it is such a vastly superior human being to the other half that it would be demeaning to even socialise together. This comes off as institutionalised snobbery.

Just because you have a Commission does not automatically confer any other rights or make you a superior human being and frankly any officer that considers themselves to be such really has missed the point of holding a Commission.

At the end of the day, all 3 Armed Forces are fighting forces whose aim is to defend the country and its interests, if necessary through the application of violence. To do that effectively requires, amongst other things, discipline and potentially a degree of objective detachment. We work hard and we play hard, but for the most part we play hard amongst our own ranks which allows officers, SNCOs and juniors the freedom to do what they want, when they want (all within the rules of course) without feeling as though they are constantly being watched or on parade. Doing so helps maintain degree credibility by not having all your social mistakes and outbursts on show leading to a potential loss of professional confidence.

Additionally, maintaining a sense of social detachment also helps you to make those difficult decisions, such as sending someone out to what could well be their death. It's much harder to take those difficult but necessary decisions if you are compromised by personal relationships. So by all means, we should socialise across the ranks - it's all part of getting to know each other, understanding what makes each other tick, and generally making for a more pleasant working environment. But to over do it risks professional compromise and that is one reason officers, NCOs and juniors are segregated; it helps maintain discipline and professionalism in a job that has very little comparison in civvie street where there may well be more vertical social mixing. Whilst it may have had social connotations way back when, it has nothing to do with officers being superior human beings and everything to do with maintaining professional standards, discipline and effective military capability.

Try telling that to some of the wives though and they would never believe it :E

[ricardian]

I recall a friend who had recently been promoted to MACR commenting to the boss one day how delighted he was that since his promotion he and his wife were permitted to read books and drink sherry. Barrack Stores had been round to his quarter earlier to deliver the additional MQ inventory items to which he was now entitled: a bookcase and six sherry glasses.
A friend of mine in the Civil Service was promoted to Principal Scientific Officer. The following day two workmen turned up in his office, replaced his piece of carpet with a larger one, replaced his chair with a more expensive version, replaced his desk with a much larger one and as they left one told my friend "We'll drop off the hat-stand tomorrow"

[MG]

F**k off, you chippy ******......

To whom do you refer with your snappy retort?

[The Old Fat One]

One hopes the newbie will jog on swiftly.

Phil R asks a very valid question and one that would be difficult to debate in this sort of forum. A couple of random points however..

Don't let service tradition (pomp and ceremony), folklore and banter disguise service reality. There is a great deal of commonality between the leadership and management structures of the military and any other hierarchical organisations. The military just adds a lot of window dressing to the process, which in reality often counts for very little. And just as the military has its hierarchical peculiarities, so do many other large organisations.

Strict rank boundaries are not essential to an effective fighting force and in many cases are often detrimental. The British military has a long and proud history of delegating command downwards under operational conditions and in many instance does this far more effectively than a comparable civilian organistion would. Step away from the British way of doing things and you will some extremely effective fighting forces where rank structure is based almost entirely on military proficency and very little else. The PAVN in the Vietnam war springs to mind.

[langleybaston]

"A friend of mine in the Civil Service was promoted to Principal Scientific Officer. The following day two workmen turned up in his office, replaced his piece of carpet with a larger one, replaced his chair with a more expensive version, replaced his desk with a much larger one and as they left one told my friend "We'll drop off the hat-stand tomorrow" "

Not the scientific Civil Service I knew! I spent almost all my career on RAF stations and, whereas I reached that same exalted rank, the accommodation was basic and not "to scale". Quite simply, the Met.Office had better things to do than fight for status symbols ........ the RAF we served alongside were not office-wallahs, and make-do and mend, 'be nice to the SWO, be nice to the MTO, be nice to the carpenters' was the way we coped regarding accommodation. Too busy to notice the surroundings!

[sitigeltfel]

One hopes the newbie will jog on swiftly.Only two posts, four years apart. A similar pause until the third one would be welcome.

[ricardian]

Not the scientific Civil Service I knew! I spent almost all my career on RAF stations and, whereas I reached that same exalted rank, the accommodation was basic and not "to scale". Quite simply, the Met.Office had better things to do than fight for status symbols ........ the RAF we served alongside were not office-wallahs, and make-do and mend, 'be nice to the SWO, be nice to the MTO, be nice to the carpenters' was the way we coped regarding accommodation. Too busy to notice the surroundings!
My friend (who worked at Oakley, Cheltenham) didn't have to fight for his status symbols - the two workmen just turned up on the day after his promotion. Presumably someone somewhere had the job of reading the list of promotions and then despatching workmen to "upgrade" folk.

[Airborne Aircrew]

then despatching workmen to "upgrade" folk

Rank has it's privileges... But so does a lack of rank. As an SAC I never had to worry if the filthy scutter I just picked up would be acceptable in the NAAFI... :}

[charliegolf]

AA, you just knew in advance that the answer would be, "Nope"!:ok:

CG

[Mmmmnice]

I served with a JO stick-waggler who delighted in baiting wives who wore their husbands rank and felt the need to ram it down the throat of those they considered their 'subordinates' On one occasion, having being told that the ladies husband (a directional consultant) 'flew' something fast and pointy, corrected her by stating that her husband was actually 'flown around' by a highly qualified and talented pilot like himself. Off she went with an expression that suggested that she thought she had been insulted somehow, but wasn't absolutely sure...........happy days!

[Pontius Navigator]

Mmmmmmm, trouble is, we were taught to salute wives-of as a matter of curtesy. Some no doubt believed it.

Now one senior wife-of was quite snooty. However when she became ex-wife-of became a shelf stacker at the local supermarket. She seemed far more real and relaxed on her knees (litteral) with former junior wives-of stepping over and around.

Think she was getting at VSO ex-husband.

[Schiller]

As a slight reference to some of the above comments, may I point out that in the Navy the Captain messes on his own, and is not a member of the wardroom. He may only come in by invitation.

This makes sense when one considers that "living above the shop", as the Navy have to do when onboard ship, would be intolerable if you were to be in the presence of your boss, arbiter of your future career, throughout your waking hours. Everybody needs the opportunity to say rude things about those that are set in authority over them from time to time.

The same thing is surely also true of the upper/lower deck divide.

[Exascot]

salute wives-of as a matter of curtesy

I did, but could never understand the concept. Surely one is saluting the 'Queen's Commission' Maybe this is why some thought they wore their husband's rank on their knickers :eek:

For the record my now ex-wife fitted in extremely well in the early 80s at NHT and there was no distinction between wives of different 'rank'.

My current wife, before we married, as a Flt Lt had to salute me in public but golly did I pay for it when we got home :eek:

[Wwyvern]

It's not only some wives who are conscious of their husband's rank. One weekend in the early 60s, a JO was working on his sports car behind the Mess, and was being annoyed by a 12 year old who was trying to interfere in what was going on. The JO eventually told the observer to leave the area, only to be told something along the lines of the JO couldn't talk to him like that because his daddy was a Wg Cdr. JO told the son of Wg Cdr to please tell his daddy that Fg Off JO told him to "F**k Off". Nothing was heard of any development.

[Union Jack]

Good point well made Schiller.:ok:

I also remember the story of the group of junior officers who had been invited to lunch with the local admiral in a probably better unmentioned Mediterranean location. Their boat having arrived inshore much earlier than the lunch party, they stopped for a swim at the local officers' club, where they met up with, and had fun and frolics with, a very attractive bikini-clad young lady who, for reasons unknown, ended up in a monokini.:eek: She rapidly left the scene to restore her modesty, but the young officers met her again very shortly afterwards - on arrival at Admiralty House where they discovered that she was in fact their host's very much younger wife .....:O Fortunately, for the greater good of all, everyone's lips remained sealed.

In a vaguely similar vein, we always used to have fun calling very senior officers' wives Lady/Mrs every second word just to see how long it took before they eventually had to say, "Oh do call me X"!

Jack

[Shack37]

Rank has it's privileges... But so does a lack of rank. As an SAC I never had to worry if the filthy scutter I just picked up would be acceptable in the NAAFI... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif


Indeed, and just possibly the snootiest comment in the thread.:hmm:

[Basil]

Surely, when in uniform, saluting ladies is the same as raising one's hat when in mufti?

As an SAC I never had to worry if the filthy scutter I just picked up would be acceptable in the NAAFI...
You should have seen the bunch we took back to a party in the OM one night :p

[Union Jack]

As an SAC I never had to worry if the filthy scutter I just picked up would be acceptable in the NAAFI - AA

You should have seen the bunch we took back to a party in the OM one night - Basil

How very democratic - but where did you leave the scutters?:)

Jack

[Phil_R]

Thanks, folks. A few suspicions confirmed there.

[johnnypaveway]

The saluting as a courtesy (curtsey if you wish) to wives of etc I believe is linked to a bygone era of societal good manners. Much in the same way as saluting a civilian hearse on passing or if passed by, it was just a manner of paying respect. It has not a great deal to do with rank just good manners. I agree it sometimes viewed as anachronistic but manners maketh.......

As for wives that wear the rank of their spouse:*

[Finningley_Fred]

I always found the wives of non Aircrew were the worst snobs. One of the most pretentious cows I ever had had the mispleasure to meet was the OH of a blunty Admin Sec guy. She dressed about 20 years older than she should of and thought that she was living in the 1950's. She did not work and saw her role as a full time wife. She ended up getting shunned by other wives as she was a total embarrassment.

[Phil_R]

My current wife, before we married, as a Flt Lt had to salute me in public but golly did I pay for it when we got home

Sounds awkward.

I'm never quite sure how to address military types with whom I am not on first name termds. "Excuse me, Squadron Leader X" always sounds terribly Miss Marble coming out of a civilian mouth, especially as I'm not familiar with which letters are habitually left out of spoken ranks in that special language known as RAF English.

Phil

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Biography Film & TV crew member based in Essex but mainly working in London. Occasional writer and "Knobcheese Journo". Phil, based in Essex says it all, and whilst I don't know you I'm sure you're not a knob despite your daft questions. If the guy's a military officer and you don't know his rank and it's a formal occasion call him/ her sir/ ma'am. He/She will let you know if that's OK or if a less formal address would be appropriate. If at a relaxed social function introduce yourself and take it from there. Simple really...one does not need a book on etiquette.Watch out for their spouses however.

[Ken Scott]

Biography Film & TV crew member based in Essex but mainly working in London. Occasional writer and "Knobcheese Journo".

As you obviously aren't involved in flying/ maintaining aeroplanes, just what are you doing on these pages? Researching for a film/ book/ play? Are you turning 'Married to Albert' into celluloid?

[langleybaston]

should I leave too, as I do not fit the criteria?

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Come come lb,without you we wouldn't go flying, and who would we have to moan at after yet another wx abort?:ok:

[parabellum]

but golly did I pay for it when we got home http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif
8H_7o7SN9fo

[McGoonagall]

Surely, when in uniform, saluting ladies is the same as raising one's hat when in mufti?

Back in the days when we had a few ships and WRNS hofficers wore blue rings on their sleeves the norm was to raise your cap and say 'morning ma'am'. Always appreciated and more personal than flicking one up to the eyebrow.

[Phil_R]

Researching for a film/ book/ play?

Originally yes, and occasionally still, but I must admit on this occasion nothing more than idle curiosity. I try not to post too terribly often.

based in Essex says it all

Yer, innit.

[Private jet]

Just another bit of idle curiosity, I was watching TV news and there was Liam Fox (before he resigned) walking with one of his "job for the boys" bag carriers. Could someone please explain what that silly looking bit of gold curtain rope draped on their uniforms is all about? I think in home furnishing terms my girlfriend calls them 'swags' and apparently Dunelm sell them. I think i've seen admiral types wearing them too.

[The Old Fat One]

Phil, based in Essex says it all, and whilst I don't know you I'm sure you're not a knob despite your daft questions. If the guy's a military officer and you don't know his rank and it's a formal occasion call him/ her sir/ ma'am. He/She will let you know if that's OK or if a less formal address would be appropriate. If at a relaxed social function introduce yourself and take it from there. Simple really...one does not need a book on etiquette.Watch out for their spouses however.


Speaking as an ex Sqn Ldr from Essex, Phil, had you met me when I was in you could have called me whatever you felt like. I would have returned the compliment. As you ain't a military dude, you ain't required to observe military bull...only us card carrying service types have to do that. Pretty much same rules for wives too...unless they are in the military it's.. "oi missus", until we are on first name terms. And if said wife/life partner is not comfortable with that we ain't gonna be conversing further anyway, so no sweat.

Like I implied earlier, there are those that think the bull is important and worth taking seriously. And there are/were plenty of us who know that is it a load of crap and just something to take the piss out of. Either way, what the taxpayer wants/needs is a military professional and that's the only thing that I ever took seriously.

[charliegolf]

there was Liam Fox (before he resigned) walking with one of his "job for the boys" bag carriers. Could someone please explain what that silly looking bit of gold curtain rope draped on their uniforms is all about?

For tying up his Adam's apples, maybe?

CG

[Union Jack]

Back in the days when we had a few ships and WRNS hofficers wore blue rings on their sleeves the norm was to raise your cap and say 'morning ma'am'. Always appreciated and more personal than flicking one up to the eyebrow.

Conversely, there was a time when WRNS ratings were only required to salute officers of the rank of Commander and above. Shortly after the rules changed and they were required to salute officers of all ranks, I was walking through a major shore establishment during a visit with my Admiral and one pretty young Wren gave us a very cheerful "Good morning!" but failed to salute even an officer of flag rank. The Boss suggested that I have a quiet word with her, so I dropped back and broached the subject gently, saying, "Haven't you forgotten something?"

Checking her blouse was fully buttoned and that her stocking seams were straight, she replied brightly, "No, I don't think so, Sir", so I persevered with "Do you remember something special that happened on 1st July?", the date the rules had changed. Her face lit up, and she replied with astonishment, "Gosh, Sir, you are clever! However did you know it was my mum's birthday?", and went merrily on her way - without saluting of course!:ouch:

Jack

[Exascot]

Could someone please explain what that silly looking bit of gold curtain rope draped on their uniforms is all about

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32684975/Aiguillette.jpg

With pleasure:

There are four types of aiguillette worn by the British Armed Forces.
Aiguillettes (1st Class or Royal) are of gold-wire cord and are worn on the right shoulder by, among others, admirals of the fleet, field marshals and marshals of the RAF (including members of the Royal Family who hold these ceremonial ranks, but not members such as The Prince of Wales, The Duke of York and The Duke of Cambridge who hold earned military ranks); honorary physicians, honorary chaplains, honorary surgeons and aides-de-camp to the Sovereign; equerries to members of the royal family. Some appointments carry the privilege of wearing miniature Sovereign's Cypher on the points of the aiguillettes. These aiguillettes are also worn by commissioned officers of the Household Cavalry (in full dress only). They are worn on the left shoulder in full dress by warrant officers of the Household Cavalry.
Aiguillettes (2nd Class or Board) are of gold and dark blue, crimson or light blue depending if worn by Royal Navy, Army or RAF officers and are worn on the right shoulder by, among others, military members of the Defence Board and each Service Board and the personal staff of governors. A simplified version with no coils is worn on the left shoulder by staff corporals, corporals of horse and lance corporals of horse of the Household Cavalry in full dress.
Aiguillettes (3rd Class or Staff) are of gold and dark blue, crimson or light blue depending if worn by Royal Navy, Army or RAF officers. They are worn on the left shoulder by, among others, attachés, assistants and aides-de-camp.

See: Aiguillette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiguillette)

You see parabellum I know all about ropes :E

[Pontius Navigator]

Speaking as an ex Sqn Ldr from Essex, Phil, had you met me when I was in you could have called me whatever you felt like. I would have returned the compliment.

OC Doms, circa 1969 in Gibraltar - voice from lower down the Rock "Hey wack, you got the time?"

"Half-past three . . . wack."

[Wensleydale]

Could someone please explain what that silly looking bit of gold curtain rope draped on their uniforms is all about? I think in home furnishing terms my girlfriend calls them 'swags' and apparently Dunelm sell them. I think i've seen admiral types wearing them too.


Its so his parrott gets a better grip....

[Pontius Navigator]

not members such as The Prince of Wales,

Maybe HRH doesn't read wikipedia. In the Torygraph today he has his adornment on the right shoulder.

[SAMXXV]

Come come sir, HRH (aka the king with no clothes) can allow his valet to make a "faux pas". He will expect the serfs (you & I) to pretend it didn't happen then follow his lead:=.

Many "senior" officers follow these irrelevant events like groupies at a Rolling Stones concert - nonchaknow......:ugh:

[SAMXXV]

I do think that you should have substituted "Parrot" with "Fawcett" - especially in the toothpaste & W**ly holding department...........:E

[Exascot]

Maybe HRH doesn't read wikipedia. In the Torygraph today he has his adornment on the right shoulder.

I think (not sure) that if they are wearing 'ceremonial' rank they do. HRH is a Marshal of the Royal Air Force but this is not an 'earned military rank'. HMQ probably gave it to him as a birthday present. I don't think it was anything to do with 3 straight spec recs :cool:

[taxydual]

HRH is also an ADC to the Queen. Therefore the bling on the right shoulder.

[Exascot]

HRH is also an ADC to the Queen.

Thank you, very good point. There is no way the valet would have got it wrong, these guys are very switched on regarding military dress.

[Ken Scott]

should I leave too, as I do not fit the criteria?

Perhaps.........

A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.

You might not be a flyer/ maintainer but if you were a

backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground

then you might have something to bring to the party. So often these threads get drawn out to extreme lengths by people who don't understand what's being discussed - this thread's reached 11 pages & is no longer about a silly woman cashing in on her 'awful' time as an RAF wife but a tutorial on 'what's that yellow ropey stuff on his jacket?'

If things get any worse I might actually have to go & do some work.......

[Exascot]

Ken, threads drift and this diversification is actually quite interesting.

OK, we got invited to a wardroom bash on a Royal Navy vessel (don't ask me type - not good with ships). The occasion was due to a visiting Admiral. The officers had decided to invite a couple who owned a hotel they frequented on shore visits. After many drinks the lady decided to do her party piece of hand stands. Probably more appropriate in the other ranks mess as she wasn't wearing any underwear :eek: Never got to hear what was said at the Captain's 'debrief'.

[FODPlod]

Just out of idle curiosity, who is going to be the first military PPruner to tell CAS that he wears "a silly looking bit of gold curtain rope" resembling a "swag"? :)

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/995917B3_5056_A318_A8E1367924BB289C.gif

[Exascot]

Just out of idle curiosity, who is going to be the first military PPruner to tell CAS that he wears "a silly looking bit of gold curtain rope" resembling a "swag"?

Does Lady Dalton 'wear' his rank? If so I guess it will have to be her :cool:

[Union Jack]

Just out of idle curiosity, who is going to be the first military PPruner to tell CAS that he wears "a silly looking bit of gold curtain rope" resembling a "swag"?

FODPlod - I believe you just did.

Exascot - Like the fine distinction.

Jack

[langleybaston]

That would Mrs Mary Hinge, I take it?

[Whenurhappy]

Has any fellow PPruner noticed that the metal bits of the Aiguillettes have the Mussolini-Era Fascinae symbol on them? That is the ‘bundle of sticks (fascines in English) and axe’ symbol used by the Italian Fascist leader. Why?

And Why oh Why, when drunk at a Dining In attended by members of the Air Force Board did I decide to approach a well-known Irish chap and grab his, err, dangly bits and point this piece of trivia out to him? The conversation was rather short, along the lines of ‘Unhand me – you are drunk’, which was true enough. But this remains an unanswered question (just looked at my set locked away with all my other soon-to-be disposed of RAF ephemera and confirmed that I hadn’t dreamt it!).

[Pontius Navigator]

A Cranditz flt lt friend of mine, latterly an AVM, thought our uniform and thought we should wear No 1 all the time and that they should be embellished with brassards etc, probably gold piping on the trousers too.

Fortunately he was shuffled off to SHAPE to play with nuclear weapons where he couldn't do any harm.

[Whenurhappy]

And spurs with Mess Kit, I hope?

Some of you might know a Scottish Engineer who still wears No 1s almost all the time, and in Main Building, never, ever took off his suit coat (not Jacket - that's what potatos wear) at his desk. I am also reliably informed that this character - in the best possible use of this word - does wear a monacle with his Mess attire. Standards, eh?

[FODPlod]

Whenurhappy - According to Wiki, the fasces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces) go back to ancient Roman times:

Fasces, a plurale tantum, from the Latin word fascis, meaning "bundle") are a bundle of wooden sticks with an axe blade emerging from the center, which is an image that traditionally symbolizes summary power and jurisdiction, and/or "strength through unity"...

Origin and symbolism

The traditional Roman fasces consisted of a bundle of birch rods, tied together with a red leather ribbon into a cylinder, and often including a bronze axe (or sometimes two) amongst the rods, with the blade(s) on the side, projecting from the bundle. They were carried by the lictors who accompanied the magistrates. The axe often represents the power over life or death through the death penalty, although after the laws of the twelve tables, no Roman magistrate could summarily execute a Roman citizen.[3] It was used as a symbol of the Roman Republic in many circumstances, including being carried in processions, much the way a flag might be carried today...

[goudie]

Probably more appropriate in the other ranks mess as she wasn't wearing any underwear http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif Never got to hear what was said at the Captain's 'debrief'


Probabaly..''be a good chap and find out when she has a night orf''!

[Whenurhappy]

FODPLOD, yes I know all that - but why are they affixed on British (and some Commonwealth) dangly bits? It's not a symbol normally asossicated with things British. After all, what have the Romans ever doen for us?

In Italy the symbol is (almost) universally associated with the Fascist Era and therefore scorned, apart from in the North, where they quite like symbols such as this. Along with wearing black shirts at political rallies...

[FODPlod]

Whenurhappy - I suspect it is all part of the universal martial tradition associated with the baton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baton_%28symbol%29) presented to senior commanders which originated in ancient Egypt, Rome and possibly Sparta. Like Mussolini's fascists with the fasces, Hitler's nazis appropriated the baton big time.

[Ron Cake]

By the slightly embarrassed look on his face, I think he knows.

[Pontius Navigator]

WUH, I think indeed you are correct, tights as well. There was a time, around 1967 or so, when the scheme was to have two No 1s, a best for parades and the second best as working dress. That way you would get a new No 1 every 2-3 years.

It never occurred to me that AMP might have been planning on a post-retirement job with Gieves.

[Wander00]

PN -but around then we also had the tailored barathea No2 as working dress and the V-Force had the thing with zipped pockets - cannot remember what that uniform was known as.

[Exascot]

Ken will probably complain about us getting away from the original subject but how many of us could still get into the no.5 after 16 years or more? I could if I held my breath. But my wife can still fit into it :p OK Ken!

[Pontius Navigator]

Wander, that was the point.

The No 2 for officers was declared non-uniform around 1962. You were allowed to wear out your existing uniform. There was a rush to buy barathea No 2s, the more extrovert u/t pilots opted for salmon pink lining ::\

Naturally these No 2 were still in use in the late 60s.

The V-force zuit suit was also available to Lightning and PR9 crews. It was designed as a uniform to be worn over g-pants and an AVS. The Mk 1 crews didn't wear g-trousers and were never entitled to the zuit suit which was actually a flying suit.

They eventually disappeared from stores in the middle-late 60s. When I went to Cyprus the hot rumour was there were still some to be had. I nipped along to stores but they only had zuit suits for gorillas - over 6 foot and over 200 lbs. Not deterred I said I would have one. The Paki tailor then modified it losing several inches in all directions until it was a good fit.

In fact even the original ones in UK were usually taken to the tailors for judicious tweaking.

[Pontius Navigator]

Xascot, I still have the one and only SD hat, only ever had one No 5 which lasted almost 40 years and then sold on eBay.

[Exascot]

I still have the one and only SD hat, only ever had one

I had many but my favourite one was so bashed up it did not meet with approval. I had a meeting with the Stn Cdr on one occasion and he demanded that I should place it in his waste paper bin. I said no problem but then I would have to wear my second best one. I was allowed to retrieve it. He was not aware that I did actually have a pristine one which I wore when in the presence of really important people or their wives of course :p

[Willard Whyte]

The peak of my SD became so frayed I had to colour the cardboard inside with a blue biro. It took many years of being stuffed into various nooks and crannies on Albert to get it into such a ***t state.

[Fareastdriver]

A very senior officer came to visit the chaps in Labuan in 1966. Being fairly hot and no airconditioning he was sweating a bit when he came to the crewroom. We all stood up, he took his hat off, leaving a wide band of leather that was the lining around his head.

[BEagle]

The peak of my SD became so frayed I had to colour the cardboard inside with a blue biro. It took many years of being stuffed into various nooks and crannies on Albert to get it into such a ***t state

One of mine became so tatty that the Boss fed it to a mate's labrador.....:\

Mind you, when I found that I needed a decent SD cap in 2003 ( :uhoh: ), I bought one from stores for less than £15. I queried the price, but they assured me that it was correct...:confused:

[Haraka]

.. I expect that even then Beags, supply was starting to exceed demand.

[Cyprus countrybred]

Exascot

There is no way the valet would have got it wrong, these guys are very switched on regarding military dress.

A few years ago I met HRH at a Reserve Forces display; he was in an RAF uniform. As he approached me I noticed that instead of the light blue shirt, he was wearing one which was actually very small dark blue and white checks. From a distance you couldn't tell, but I had great difficulty in concentrating on what he was saying to me after that.

cc

[taxydual]

Ah, that would be the blue/grey shirt. Only to be worn with best uniform. The Wedgewood Blue shirt superceded it.

[Fareastdriver]

that would be the blue/grey shirt

It did have seperate blue and white threads. Also issued with detachable collars and rollover cuffs so that they good be turned inside out and the shirt worn the next day. The collars looked so dreadful that one had to purchase semi-plastic versions from the tailors.

I still have the collar studs somewhere.

[BEagle]

Certainly at RAFC Cranwell, as Haraka will recall, we used to have to spend our few shillings on detached Van Heusen collars to go with the itchy stores-issued shirts. A brand-new one was essential before the delights of the Ferris drill competiton..:uhoh: Fortunately we'd had detached collars at school, so the wretched things were quite familiar to me....:\

Those blue/grey shirts were identical to police shirts of the time. The late Tony Smith (RIP) was once driving his blue Hillman Hunter back from White Waltham wearing his copper's shirt and black tie - looking very much like a Met rozzer. Someone in front of him wouldn't get out of the way, so Tony flashed his lights, put on his SD cap and pointed to the kerb... The other driver dutifully pulled over - only for Tony to speed past giving him a Churchillian gesture! Happy times, eh Haraka?

But who remembers that awful duck egg blue/green shirt which came out after the copper's shirt and before the wedgewood blue one (in about 1970)? It wouldn't even last one day's normal use before looking very grubby...:(

Back to the thread - at the so-called meet and greet for our Buccaneer course in 1976, the Wg Cdr's wife asked the wife of one of the course navigators "And which course are you on?".

Mistake. Big mistake. Huge!

She'd asked a fiery little Scots lass the wrong question - and was instantly put right. She wasn't on any course, her husband was! Meanwhile her hubby watched with pride. But it didn't do him any long term harm - he was the only ab-initio navigator to graduate from the course.

[chopd95]

1) "Tailored Barathea Battledress" was still de rigeur early 70's ? - still had mine when I left in '75.

2) No 1 son came into the world at RNH Mtarfa - his mother was incandescent when she saw that her medical notes were headed " w/o Flt Lt B.... "

3) At 1369 time OC stated that he would recommend Flt Lt B for an ADC post, but strictly on the understanding that w/o would be advised that she should desist from her "left wing opinions"

I left soon afterwards and said OC became an ACM......!!

[Haraka]

Beags,
If I am allowed a one-off thread drift. Tony Smith,who flew Maggie in later years, used to be on my ULAS flying weekends.
As you well recall , following the BoB film (premiered of course especially for our commissioning day on Sept 15th '69) it became a bit of a "thing" for us ex-Cadets. "Don't you shout at me Mr. Warwick!", Full acting out of "The Luftwaffe March " with Stumpy Swann taking the salute etc. etc.
Tony was one in particular who loved arranging rendevous with , and then bouncing, fellow solo studes in his "Chipfire".
Having picked a 5000' assignation with a mate one morning at a determined time over Greenham Common, Tony droned up to 7000' just to be sure and ,bang on cue , spotted a Chipmunk pottering along 2000' below. Tony rolled over and went into a near VNE (172kt?) dive pressing the transmit button on our illegal stude "quiet " frequency and giving it the "dakadakadaka"call - straight from the movie. Tony then broke away and continued his flight.

NOW. Andy Whittaker ( our very much respected CFI) happened to be taking a new student on an effects of control intro at the time and was somewhat taken aback at the sight of a ULAS Chipmunk diving very close indeed alongside and breaking away , of course displaying its large underside serials in the process.
We were all hauled in by the CFI at lunch time, told the story and asked for the culprit to own up ....or else.
Tony went straight in and confessed. The contents of the subsequent father to son one way discussion were not of course revealed by either party - but can be imagined.
I very much doubt if anything was put in writing, as that was the way it was. Happy Days indeed Beags.
My wife and I got married just before I PVR'd( for the second time) We only attended one function - an annual cocktail party. Our guest ( a local school head ) failed to appear.
I pointed this out to the PMC who then observed
" I'm not really surprised, He came last year"

[BEagle]

Another rogue who loved to bounce people was spotted a year or so later. Being somewhat dull, he'd forgotten that he was flying the only Chipmunk in red-and-white paintwork in the south of the UK - and it didn't take long to identify the guilty party....:uhoh:

However, the new CFI had a much better idea. "All those who were on the first wave, report back here at 1700!".

So we had a nail-biting day wondering which particular bit of villainy had been spotted - and all behaved like angels for the rest of the day...:\

Come 1700, it was a simple "I don't care who started it and I know who at least one of you was - all the other aircraft are grey and day-glo. Don't do it again - and certainly don't get caught. Right, you all owe me a beer!"....:ok:

Worst 'wife of' I ever encountered was known as 'OC 44'; her husband was 'the bloke who sits in Wally's chair whilst she runs the squadron'. 3 of us lived out and often had a spare room - the wife* of a 44 Sqn chum was a bit nervous of being at home alone when hubby was away on a Ranger, so would often ask to come to stay with us (and would do the washing up!). All completely innocent and above board. One morning the phone went and it was the infamous 'Mrs OC44' asking to speak with our chum's wife. Nosy old boot - she obviously thought Something Was Up. Unfortunately it was a bit short notice to think up an emergency spoof (such as "Wake up, darling, there's some woman on the phone for you!"), so I just told her that the wife of said chum had probably left for work half an hour earlier (which she had). Then asked whether there was any message or what for her. Mrs OC44 stumbled and mumbled - it was obvious what'd been on her suspicious mind....:sad: Of course we shared the story with as many people at Scampton and Waddo as we could, much to the amusement of both the husband and Mrs OC44's husband!


*One of the delightfully curvaceous twins, for those who remember those days!

[jamesdevice]

After reading this thread I'm sure its mistitled.
Sounds to me that it would be better labelled
"Your husband will never get promoted if you wear THE trousers..."

[Mach Two]

Well said, Duncan. I can see why he preferred the Albert to her!

[Willard Whyte]

If you're going to come late to the party you're supposed to bring good booze.