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bar fly
8th Oct 2011, 15:13
I'm heading to Cuba for a couple of weeks for the first time. 4 nights in Havana followed by a resort in Varadero. Anyone got any recommendations, tips, to do's, not to do's?

For example it seems like there is scope for a two currency scam, where you get given change in different currency. Does that happen? Are the currencies easy to mix up?

Any advice from your collective experience would be appreciated!

Bar fly

blue up
8th Oct 2011, 17:14
Don't offer to pay your bills with an Amex card.

El Grifo
8th Oct 2011, 17:36
Best and really only bar to visit in Varadero is called 62nd street. Live music every night, later the dancing extends out into the street. Find it close to hotel Hotetur Playa Palmeras.

Cuban singers at Calle 62 in Varadero, Cuba (part 2) - YouTube

I normally just pull cash from the ATM's. I have spent a lot of time in Cuba and never had a bad moment. Love it !!

Cuba - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157622652023886/)

G-CPTN
8th Oct 2011, 18:00
For example it seems like there is scope for a two currency scam, where you get given change in different currency.
As happened in East Germany after the Wall came down - even though the Ostmark was only 'worth' a tenth of the value of the Deutschmark!

However, the prices were still in Ostmarks, so the actual costs were minimal.

76skipper
8th Oct 2011, 18:41
Go to Vinales (Unesco classified), spend the night at a local "guesthouse" (they are called "casa particular", trek with a guide (Floidred --> [email protected], from the local tour agency, around the "Mogotes", visit the tobacco planter (farmer "Gerardo" is a good place to go). Also spend some time in wonderful Havana, eat at private restaurants, they are called "Paladar". Lot's of tips on trip advisor too. Just returned from a week layover in beautiful HAV. Have fun !

El Grifo
8th Oct 2011, 20:10
Like I say, just use your cashcard to take Cuban convertable pesos, from any machine, including at the airport just as you would in any other country.

If this you first visit, you will be amazed to find how much more open and relaxed the country is, compared to the country described in the vitriolic propoganda emanating from the US. :ok:

TBirdFrank
8th Oct 2011, 20:53
Varadero isn't Cuba - its a bit of Disneyland that is built in Cuba.

Cuba is a country of wonderful people - wonderful cars - all to a cuban beat as backdrop!

Make sure you get to Havana and to Santa Clara too. I'm not backing Castro or what he has done to the country, but they have things that they can teach us - safe streets, a cracking health service - and just watch the kids in their school uniforms, no hoodies there!

Make sure you meet real cubans though - and although it might sound patronising - it isn't - take some toiletries, pens and pencils, and a few paperbacks - they are wonderful people curious for knowledge and very short of a few of the basic necessities in life.

Enjoy it - we did!

Hotel Internacionale Havana

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk231/45596/20040220001HotelNacionaleHavanaDsc01682.jpg

The Capitol Havana - you could lose a couple of days street watching here

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk231/45596/20040220008Dsc01689.jpg

Rodeo park up near Manalich

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk231/45596/20040221008Dsc01709.jpg

Why we went

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk231/45596/200402250021626StRafael.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk231/45596/20040227016Bushveldtrunpast2.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk231/45596/20040302025RafaelFreresThreePeaks1.jpg

And why you should

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk231/45596/20040228014CiegoEdsel.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk231/45596/20040229006StLuistrainchaser.jpg

The locals

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk231/45596/20040229022JotulWelcome.jpg

The Cardenas shot - near Varadero

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk231/45596/20040304005TheCardenasshot.jpg

And at the far end of the island .................

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk231/45596/20040301003Dsc01794.jpg

El Grifo - that is a wonderful album showing everything that can be said about Cuba - loved the juxtapositioning of Cayo shots with genuine Cuba shots and particularly the evening shot over the Malecon and the begging dog!

El Grifo
8th Oct 2011, 21:29
History might judge Fidel differently.

Just look at Ernesto !

My favourite gaff, Hotel Inglaterra, heart of the city, 80 bucks a night !!

con-pilot
9th Oct 2011, 02:49
Bar fly, what ever you do, do not, repeat do not take a satellite phone into Cuba. Or you'll be on an extended holiday there for many, many years.

But at least you'll have free room and board while you stay as a 'guest' of the Cuban Government.

Other than that, have a great time.

pigboat
9th Oct 2011, 04:04
Bar fly, what ever you do, do not, repeat do not take a satellite phone into Cuba. Or you'll be on an extended holiday there for many, many years.

And don't have a traffic accident (http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/07/22/canadian-teen-detained-in-cuba-after-car-crash/) either.

hull city
9th Oct 2011, 09:13
Copacabana is a must.

Storminnorm
9th Oct 2011, 10:33
Passed through the place a couple of times.

Never felt any desire to go there on holiday.
I prefer Majorca.

They make nice cigars.
(Cuba, NOT Majorca.)

El Grifo
9th Oct 2011, 10:39
Was across there on another job just last month. It was great to see the improvements from even a year ago. The countryside does not change much, apart from the increase in better quality farming machinery and more agriculture in general, whereas the big towns do.

The kids are wearing much more western style clothing, several have mobile phones, the variety of goods in the shops is vastly greater and a great sense of optimism prevails.

There are those around who can never forgive the fact that Fidel and his buddies cocked a snoot at the great Uncle Sam, forcing him to back down and move the missiles from Turkey.

Kennedy played a heroic part in that negotiation, I often wonder what people like Bush (either or) would have done.

The trade embargo is immoral and childish but fairly characteristic of those who keep it in place.

Have a great time in Cuba then come back and give us your views !

If you have any Spanish, do as I do, talk to as many people as possible from as many walks of life as possible. That is where the truth lies, good or bad !

bar fly
9th Oct 2011, 11:20
Thanks to you all especially those offering tips and advice, I guess the political opinions are inevitable. I'll be sure to report back in a couple of weeks. As I'm on board VS now, I must dash.

All the best, bar fly

Cacophonix
9th Oct 2011, 11:32
Damn it! We let Bar Fly fly without asking him or her to get us a couple of cigars...:ugh:

Caco

Storminnorm
9th Oct 2011, 11:40
I DID tell you they make great cigars!!!

El Grifo
9th Oct 2011, 11:46
What is the story again ? "hand rolled on the thighs of dusky Cubana senoritas" :ok:

TBirdFrank
9th Oct 2011, 14:25
Not in the factory we went round they weren't - unless you are of another persuasion! :p

603DX
9th Oct 2011, 15:41
The resorts in Varadero are nice and friendly

Yes, I believe that the notorious gangster Al Capone quite liked it there, when he wasn't managing his Havana casino. His house in Varadero is still there, now operating as a restaurant. ;)

El Grifo
9th Oct 2011, 15:51
It was and probably still is, owned by the Dupont family. I think Capone just rented it. I am pretty sure it is actually used as the clubhouse for the golf course.

Nice beaches below and to the right of it :ok:

tinpis
9th Oct 2011, 22:52
Dont bother with the Cohibas, USA (http://www.gothamcigars.com/images/kingedward.jpg) much better

G-CPTN
9th Oct 2011, 23:05
Back when I was a young man (and still smoking cigars) I used to acquire these from the local US Airforce Base PX, so when I was expecting a visit from an Engineer from the US and he asked if he could bring me anything I, of course, suggested KEs.

He did bring me some, but told me they were just what the truck-drivers smoked and he also brought some 'real' cigars - though I don't remember what they were.

bar fly
26th Oct 2011, 10:53
I'm back from an incredible two weeks in Cuba, and loved every minute of it.

The first four days in Havana started well with an upgraded room to a suite at the Saratoga Hotel with balconies overlooking the Capitol building and the square next to it. From our room and indeed the rooftop pool and bar (great for unwinding after a hot days exploring) we could see the Cigar factory, and even in the distance the tower of revolution square.

We took svar's advice and jumped on the double decker bus tour initially to get a feel for the place and decide which places we wanted to return to. It was fun, and great for pictures as well.

Some of our highlights were restaurants and bars that I sadly can't name for you. This is because they were down random side streets that we'd happily get lost in, and also because many of them didn't have a sign or menu outside. In one case we heard live music coming from behind a glass door and (emboldened by a few Cuba Libres/Mojitos) we just walked in to see what was happening. We were welcomed with open arms, taken to a table in front of the musicians and offered drinks and given a fine meal for a grand total of 12 CUCs (about $15USD). We also liked to hang out and have water/coffees at Hotel Inglaterra, a great spot for people and car watching. We found ourselves one night at the famous Floridita bar, and enjoyed the atmosphere and cocktails in there. We'd already eaten but at the end of the night, we popped into the restaurant to see the amazing artwork in the restaurant.

Our final highlight was Plaza de la Catedral, which is a beautiful padestrianised square with several streets and squares running from it. There were numerous bars, cafes, restaurants and museums in this area and we spent time there on two different days. Our last night was spent at La Zorra y el Cuervo Jazz Club. An excellent night and I'd recommend it.

To my surprise, it was with a heavy heart that we departed Havana for 10 days at the Iberostar Varadero resort - we just felt like we were getting to know the place. However, the resort was great, and similar to other 5 star resorts in the Caribbean. We did excursions from the resort including a jeep adventure on which you drive your jeep in convoy for the day visiting a coral reef beach for snorkelling, a remote river where you drive a speedboat in (sort of) convoy exploring the remote jungle like river banks, then back in the jeeps to lunch followed by a final stop at a large cave with a 22 metre deep fresh water pool for swimming. A great day out. We also took a Catamaran out to swim with dolphins. Although I’d done this before in Mexico, this time was much more hands on and a great experience. I gave the instructor a few notes at the end and he let me and my girlfriend have one on one time with the dolphin, and incredibly be carried around by the dolphin who seemed to love it (or maybe the fish I gave him as a reward!).

Anyway, I’m conscious that I’ve rambled on. I got quite a taste for Rum and Cigars, enjoying them both on a nightly basis on our balcony. The three brands I preferred were Cohiba, Romeo Y Julietta, and Montecristo. I would always buy them in individual tubes and if I didn’t finish in one sitting, I would finish it later in the evening, perhaps on the beach. I brought back 15 Montecristo Open Master Tubos with me, as well as a Cohiba Siglo VI for friends and family.

The cash thing wasn't a problem. I was vigilant at the start checking that I was actually getting CUCs in return, but it was never an issue. I was able to use the ATMs in Havana (there aren't many, and we had to queue) and in Varadero the ATMs didn't work so we drew money from the bank which required our passports.

I loved Cuba, and met many Cubans, who were lovely and proud people. I will go back, and would recommend Havana to anyone. I travel quite a bit, but can honestly say I’ve never been anywhere like it, and I mean that in the most positive way.

Thanks for your feedback - virtual cigars for you all!

bar fly

El Grifo
26th Oct 2011, 11:11
Excellent feedback bar fly. Your reflections of La Habana are similar to mine. I always go for the Inglaterra mainly due to price and originality. The roof terrace at night is a joy to encounter.

Some of the deleted posters will no doubt be dissapointed that you were not mugged, cheated, pestered by hookers, had a car accident or were jailed for possesion of a satellite phone :confused:

Others will be dissapointed that you are not reporting scenes of poverty, deprivation and repression.

I accept that you were there on vacation and not everything would be revealed, but on my many work trips where I operate a bit differently, I also find many positives in that great country !

Happy Days
El G.

Cacophonix
26th Oct 2011, 11:27
Some of the deleted posters will no doubt be dissapointed that you were not mugged, cheated, pestered by hookers, had a car accident or were jailed for possesion of a satellite phone

This deleted poster is delighted that bar fly enjoyed Cuba and really appreciates the good and detailed feedback. I look forward to visiting Cuba in the not too distant future.

Avoiding politics I will post a piece of Cuban music... (with thanks to Ry Cooder)

raRqgKqIM3M

Caco

Matari
26th Oct 2011, 11:53
Well I guess it is settled then. A wealthy western European tourist can have a great time in Cuba.

Cacophonix
26th Oct 2011, 12:11
Well I guess it is settled then. A wealthy western European tourist can have a great time in Cuba.

Money helps to colour one's appreciation, sure, but I tend to grant barfly and El Grifo a modicum of respect and the ability to look beyond their hotels and the pleasures that western lucre can buy.

Matari you must be a bundle of fun to travel with! ;):p

Caco

603DX
26th Oct 2011, 12:36
Avoiding politics I will post a piece of Cuban music

Great piece of typical Cuban rhythm, Caco, and also an admirably sensible attitude. Anyone who has been around for a while is well aware of the island's history, which I regard as theirs, and theirs alone.

I went there too, with an open mind and looking forward to a stimulating experience. Like bar fly, I had a tremendously good time, and will probably visit again. I was with friends who like me are keen music lovers, and we were hoping to see and hear as much of the music and dance as possible, as well as the people and the scenery.

Havana was fascinating, lively and exciting, with street musicians playing in the characteristic "latin-american" style at pavement cafes all around the old quarter of the city. Our musical antennas were tingling, and "people watching" at the same time made it all a memorable event, especially just hanging around the Malecon. We visited Cienfuegos, Santa Clara, Sancti Spiritus, Trinidad, and the beautiful Parque Guanayara in the Escambrey Mountains, where we had an exciting ride in the back of a huge Russian truck with rudimentary seats. Everywhere we found normal, friendly and busy folk just getting on with their lives, in the verdant countryside districts, and music, music, music wherever you were. :ok:

Matari
26th Oct 2011, 12:58
A high-ranking government official in Benin, W. Africa once told me that he was sadly amused by the European tourists visiting Ganvie, their little Venice on the sea. The tourists would gush with admiration about the tiny village, about how wonderful it was that the locals lived so close to nature, had such a joyful life, so full of rhythm and soul, etc. Once depleted of their CFA's, the tourists were back on AF to Paris, to live a life that the average Beninois could only dream of.

El Grifo
26th Oct 2011, 13:06
But that was in Beni, W. Africa right ?? :ok:

Just for a wind up Matari :D

Hasta Siempre Commandante-Buena Vista Social Club - YouTube (http://youtu.be/po09lcDxXIA)

603DX
26th Oct 2011, 13:19
Interesting. Until now, I was unaware that "European tourist" was a pejorative term. Naive of me perhaps, or does that only apply when expressed by the embittered and overly world-weary?

I have a sort of vague feeling at the back of my mind, that if it were not for the large numbers of European migrants, the USA in its present form might not exist.

Carbon Bootprint
26th Oct 2011, 15:43
Please pardon a bit of pedanticism:

Hotel Internacionale Havana More accurately, the Hotel Nacional de Cuba, in Havana. I stayed there last year. A wonderful hotel, built in the same style as the Breakers in Miami (compare photos of the two). Lots of the old gangsters frequented this place in the day, and are memorialized in the "Hall of History" or whatever it's called in one of hotel's bars. I recommend a room on the sixth floor executive level if possible.

It was and probably still is, owned by the Dupont family. I think Capone just rented it. I am pretty sure it is actually used as the clubhouse for the golf course. Two completely different structures. The former Dupont beachfront villa is now known as the "Xanadú" Mansion. While it's located at the golf course, I'm not sure it's the clubhouse. It is a very exclusive hotel with only six very luxurious rooms, restaurants, bars and meeting facilities.

Oh, I don't think the Dupont family has owned it since about, umm...1959? :}

Capone's former mansion is a short distance away, on a narrow strip of land between the beach and a lagoon.

Cuba is a wonderful country. Glad you enjoyed your trip.

Matari
26th Oct 2011, 16:48
if it were not for the large numbers of European migrants, the USA in its present form might not exist.

Yes, and they left Europe for a reason. Just like Cubans who sadly risk their lives to leave their homelands.

I'm sure Cuba is a wonderful place, like many impoverished tropical countries where the beer is cheap, women are plentiful, and locals are happy to extract hard currencies out of visitors.

Costa Rica is a very nice place, without the political prisons. All depends on where your moral compass leads you.

El Grifo
26th Oct 2011, 17:49
Keep it up Matari. I am sure you will convince yourself eventually.

As for convincing others - - - - well !! :ok:

There are emigrations of people from everywhere every day from countries all around the world. Nothing new in that !

con-pilot
26th Oct 2011, 22:48
I've said this before, if relations between the US and Cuba are ever normalized, hopefully in my lifetime, I'll go back to Havana. I enjoyed my trips down there, even to Guantanamo Bay, a beautiful area.

El Grifo
26th Oct 2011, 23:55
If you can hold on to your breath for just bit longer Con, you may get your wish.

When I was working in Varadero a few weeks ago, I enquired about the huge building project going on at the end of the peninsula.

I was reliably informed that Gaviotas, The "military" wing of tourism, were building an enormous marina "for when the Americans come"

TBirdFrank
27th Oct 2011, 00:08
When we stayed at the Nacionale a few years ago, the first people we got talking to were a family from Texas - flew up to Tronno and then direct to Havana

No spots on their passports - job done!

bar fly
27th Oct 2011, 16:15
El Grifo, after our catameran trip from that same Marina on Saturday, we had lunch in the Marina restaurant (amazing sea food) and the centre piece of the restaurant is a massive model of how the complete project will look. It was quite impressive, and contains hundreds of properties and even more moorings for large yachts.

They're planning for a lot of wealthy people to arrive, that much is certain.

Incidentally, I spoke to several Americans whilst in both Havana and Varadero. They were quite nonchalant about being there haviung flown through Canada. I enquired if there maybe consequences on their return and they said a very small percentage get checked, even fewer get fined. And in any case the Cuban immigration officers dont stamp passports (to my dismay).

Cameronian
27th Oct 2011, 21:29
Looks as if I'm too late for you, Bar Fly. You got lots of good advice about la Havana and about Varadero. I have only one thing to add - in the main street in Varadero there is a little office on a first floor (there is a sign outside) which is the booking office for the tourist flights out to the Keys. They drop people out there in the mornings and go back for them later. Their aircraft are AN-2s. I'm sure that the trip is great and that the Keys would suit a holiday sun lover just fine. I just wanted to fly in an AN-2, though, so I went in and asked to charter an aircraft for an hour for myself and a couple of friends. The young lady (who had a degree in astronomy, by the way...) had to call the airfield for confirmation of availability and while we were waiting I mentioned that I had a UK private licence and that one just didn't see AN-2s there. The UB one hadn't started at that point, I believe. Anyway, the confirmation came through and I just had to present myself at the nearby aerodrome and each passenger had to bring his passport.

We duly presented ourselves and had our formal tickets and boarding passes prepared (!) and were met by two surprisingly young 4-ringers and a rather rough looking older guy who almost certainly had a Kalashnikov up his jersey to prevent a one-way trip to Florida.

After the walkround we all got in while the prestart checks were done and the engine started. Then one of the pilots came back and asked me if I fancied the RHS. Hah!

Upon takeoff I was invited to take the controls on the climb out. Yes please! The instruments were all metric and in Russian but I was able to see that it was at 60 m that I was invited to level out. I followed the southern coast of the Varadero peninsula out and round the end to come back down the outer coast and more or less repeated this for almost an hour. Time after time I was told "lower, lower!" - remember that I started at 60m. Early on I had to fly round the antenna on the little radio taxi hut and I still have the video made by one of my friends which showed the horizon cutting through the roof of the small tower on the new golf clubhouse which was equivalent to a second floor (ground plus first plus second and then its little roof). Deducting the eye level of my friend and the undercarriage didn't leave very much!

I flew the approach (having first climbed back up to 60m) but didn't get the landing. Chiz! I didn't stop smiling for at least two weeks and it was very cheap too. Lovely people, Cubans, nearly all of them. What a lovely aeroplane too!

I had already spent a while keeping my eyes open for the compound where they kept the not so pretty girls, with no luck. Am I right in remembering that one of the Pirelli calendars was shot in a cocoa estate previously owned by the Hershey family? I seem to remember decaying steam engines and cocoa factories in the forest.... and the girls too.

El Grifo
27th Oct 2011, 23:33
Nice memory Camo.

Sadly (or not) the AN-2's are a thing of memory and the strip looked pretty well unused last time I looked judging by the number of pedestrians. I do remember the low level fly-bys though.

I gues they call it progress :ok:

Cameronian
28th Oct 2011, 02:30
That's sad about the AN-2s. There were so many of them. How do they get the tourists out to the Keys now?

I was out for work too, well, more for trade than work. It's a long story and an interesting one but not for here just now.

El Grifo
28th Oct 2011, 08:50
Last time I went to the Keys it was a long taxi ride.

The strip on Cayo Coco is overgrown and unusable now !

The last time I saw the AN-2's airborne was for skydiving.

Rollingthunder
28th Oct 2011, 08:56
Some fairly frequent TV advertising for Cuba going on here. Not something you'll see in the states.

El Grifo
28th Oct 2011, 09:11
I posted some pics of Cuba earlier on on this thread. Must have got chucked out in the big clean-up.

If for any reason rules are being broken, please feel free to delete !

El G.

Cuba - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157622652023886/)

El Grifo
19th Dec 2013, 15:59
Well we are definitely moving in the right direction...


Now where have I heard that before ???? :ok:

Saludos Dush

El G.

Cyber Bob
20th Dec 2013, 08:56
Hit - Casa de la Musica

Miss - Hemmingway's - certainly not the best Mojito in town

CB

Bar fly - Where about in Nirvana are you?

MagnusP
20th Dec 2013, 09:46
First the lettuce, now cars

Fair's fair, Dushan, you have to admit there's now a thriving export market in lettuces for North Korea.

brickhistory
2nd Jul 2014, 19:58
But if the lettuce is fresh, what the hey...


The Cuban Commission of Human Rights and National Reconciliation, an NGO
dedicated to reporting on the torture and oppression of anti-communist thought in Cuba, revealed in its monthly report (http://www.infobae.com/2014/07/01/1577428-cuba-cometio-963-detenciones-arbritrarias-opositores-junio) that 963 individuals were arrested for political reasons in June. While this number is smaller than record-setting May, when 1,120 Cuban citizens are arrested for political reasons (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/06/03/Cuban-Political-Arrests-Skyrocket-in-May-2014-en-Route-to-Breaking-Oppression-Records), the alarming rate of detention indicates that the Cuban government has no interest in a more-liberated society.


Cuba Detained Almost 1,000 Dissidents in June, Tortured Political Prisoners (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/02/Cuba-Arbitrarily-Detained-Almost-1-000-Dissidents-in-June-Tortured-Political-Prisoners)

perthsaint
2nd Jul 2014, 20:26
Political prisoners being tortured in Cuba you say...

Torture Techniques used in Guantanamo | The Justice Campaign- Supporting Human Rights, Transparency and Fairness for David Hicks (http://thejusticecampaign.org/?page_id=273)

Lonewolf_50
2nd Jul 2014, 20:38
Interesting. Until now, I was unaware that "European tourist" was a pejorative term. Naive of me perhaps, or does that only apply when expressed by the embittered and overly world-weary?

I have a sort of vague feeling at the back of my mind, that if it were not for the large numbers of European migrants, the USA in its present form might not exist.
Do you understand the distinction between migrant and tourist?
Do you understand what the term "perjorative" actually means?

I read no such connotation in the post you answered.

El Grif, why dd you you drop this initial wind up? This is about bar fly's vacation, and you just could not help yourself.

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/465779-cuba.html#post6740317
Like I say, just use your cashcard to take Cuban convertable pesos, from any machine, including at the airport just as you would in any other country.
If this you first visit, you will be amazed to find how much more open and relaxed the country is, compared to the country described in the vitriolic propoganda emanating from the US.

Matari, why did you bite?
perthsaint: this is about bar fly's vacation, not your axe grinding. He didn't go to Gitmo.

FFS, folks, you really made a meal of what could have been a fun thread.

:mad::mad:

Can't you keep this crap in the hamster wheels where it belongs?

perthsaint
2nd Jul 2014, 20:46
Lonewolf,

I was responding to brickhistory's post. I'm surprised that I'm having to point this out.

Lonewolf_50
2nd Jul 2014, 21:09
I am aware of that, perth, so what excuse do you make for being part of the problem?

"He did it too!"

:mad:ing children.

Rant over.

perthsaint
2nd Jul 2014, 21:14
Your opinions are of no importance.

Pointing and laughing at hypocrites is all part of the fun of JB.

BenThere
2nd Jul 2014, 22:17
compared to the country described in the vitriolic propoganda emanating from the US.

C'mon, pal. There's no vitriolic propaganda campaign emanating from the US. We've forgotten about Cuba for the most part. You're imagining a straw man if you think there's anything more than a general desire that the lot of the people of Cuba be improved by tossing out the Socialists.

Dushan
2nd Jul 2014, 23:29
A little bit of Cacoimitation first
vJFf29jUnrs


So it's been along, long time and suddenly this thread is resurrected, but wait a minute pardner. Looks like I had some posts here and they are no longer visible.

What gives?
SDE at work?

Matari
3rd Jul 2014, 02:29
Matari, why did you bite?

C'mon Lonewolf, that was way back in 2011! What with all the death threats and deadly music videos, I've learned to chill!

So don't harsh my mellow, dude! It's all good! Just don't read any Michael J. Totten, or read about the "Damas Blancas" or anything at all from the many imprisoned and beaten writers there.

No, I've learned my lesson: I only believe wealthy western tourists with a hankering for third-world luxury, or someone with a vested interest in promoting tourism to government owned hotels. So another round of Mojitos, hombre! Can't wait to post the pix of anti-American slogans on Facebook!

bcgallacher
3rd Jul 2014, 10:08
The post regarding arrests in Cuba made me smile - the incarceration rate in Cuba is about 2/3 that of the USA. The Cubans also have lower infant,child and maternal mortality rates than the US - good health care for all rather than the best for those that can afford it,what a terrible socialist idea! If the present regime ends, within a year the drug boats and aeroplanes will be going across the straits at an ever increasing rate - Cuba is the only country in the region that executed a general for facilitating drug smuggling into the US.

Dushan
3rd Jul 2014, 16:16
The post regarding arrests in Cuba made me smile - the incarceration rate in Cuba is about 2/3 that of the USA. The Cubans also have lower infant,child and maternal mortality rates than the US - good health care for all rather than the best for those that can afford it,what a terrible socialist idea!

This must be why Cuban Coast Guard plucks hundreds of Americans risking their lives in shark infested waters, floating on poorly constructed rafts, from Key West towards Cuba.

con-pilot
3rd Jul 2014, 17:58
Cuba is the only country in the region that executed a general for facilitating drug smuggling into the US.

Really, just where did you get that tidbit of information, or misinformation from may I ask? :p

perthsaint
3rd Jul 2014, 18:12
Cuban General and Three Others Executed for Sending Drugs to U.S. - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/1989/07/14/world/cuban-general-and-three-others-executed-for-sending-drugs-to-us.html)

con-pilot
3rd Jul 2014, 19:01
That article was published in 1989, what it does not relate is the real reason those generals were executed. Keep in mind that the Generals were middlemen in the extremely active drug smuggling from Cuba to the US, that still exist today.

There is a reason that there is a fixed over the horizon radar balloon in Key West along with rotating assigned AWACs that are on station between Cuba and the southeast coast line of the US.

And they are not there to keep tens of thousands of Americans from using anything that can float to escape the US to get to Cuba.

Also, if you are not aware of this already, some of my missions were taking Cuban drug smugglers back to Cuba, where they were released and allowed to go free. How do I know they were released, I watched it happen. They would walk down the aft-airstairs, their restraints would be removed by our guards, then they would walk/run to family members that were waiting for them and leave.

But, if you wish to believe Cuban Government propaganda releases, well there is nothing I can do about that.

perthsaint
3rd Jul 2014, 19:13
You keep deflecting. I'll keep living in the real world.

brickhistory
3rd Jul 2014, 19:18
Cuban generals executed in 1989 (Good, if true).

Over a thousand protesters arrested in each of the previous months of this year.

You were saying something about "the real world?"

con-pilot
3rd Jul 2014, 19:19
You keep deflecting. I'll keep living in the real world.

Like I posted prior;

But, if you wish to believe Cuban Government propaganda releases, well there is nothing I can do about that.

Also, it was pretty real standing on a ramp at the Havana airport watching the Cuban drug smugglers being freed.

But whatever trips your trigger dude. :rolleyes:

con-pilot
3rd Jul 2014, 19:23
Cuban generals executed in 1989 (Good, if true).


As far as I was told, it is true, (old brain cells waking up) but, it was keeping some of the ill-gotten gains for their retirement fund, not Castro's retirement fund that caused their demise. Very touchy about that the Castro brothers are. :p

perthsaint
3rd Jul 2014, 19:24
Of course. And that couldn't possibly be propaganda, could it?

con-pilot
3rd Jul 2014, 21:01
Of course. And that couldn't possibly be propaganda, could it?

No, it was not, as the source was not any type of US government release, as all official information from Cuba is and has been before Castro and still is to this day.

All media sources in Cuba are tightly controlled by the Cuban government.

That is a fact whether you believe it or not.

We starting to go around in circles here and I’m stopping it, as you consistently post any and every thing you can find that is negative about the US. So I’m finished with you on this subject.

bcgallacher
3rd Jul 2014, 21:03
Dushan - I do not see you denying the figures.As far as swimming to Cuba is concerned perhaps Americans are not fit enough!

perthsaint
3rd Jul 2014, 21:12
Propaganda has to come from a government source? My, that's funny.

Dushan
3rd Jul 2014, 21:39
Dushan - I do not see you denying the figures.As far as swimming to Cuba is concerned perhaps Americans are not fit enough!

I didn't say "swim". I said "floating on poorly constructed rafts". What numbers? 100s, 1000s? I don't know how many but given the marvelous description of people's paradise I would think 100s of thousands.

con-pilot
3rd Jul 2014, 21:55
As far as swimming to Cuba is concerned perhaps Americans are not fit enough!

Naw, we don't need to do no stinkin' swimming to go to Cuba if any fool would want to. We gots lots of real boats.

Cubans, not so much. All that socialist paradise stuff, they cannot afford a boat.

con-pilot
4th Jul 2014, 00:26
Cubans

Are people, like us...

Some good, some OK, some downright bad...


Absolutely, I meet a lot of really nice Cubans on my flights to Havana.

And a couple not so nice.

But much more of the former than the latter. :ok:

pigboat
5th Jul 2014, 23:45
Lettuce in every salad! A chicken in every pot! Coca Cola in every fridge!
US Democrats break the Cuba taboo - call for end to trade embargo against communist island. (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/05/u-s-democrats-break-the-cuba-taboo-call-for-end-to-trade-embargo-against-communist-island/)

West Coast
6th Jul 2014, 01:36
I believe it's time. Politically I recognize it's done at a poli's peril but I think any positive change will come from friendly relations.

John Hill
6th Jul 2014, 01:41
Has this policy of embargo and isolation ever had the desired effect, anywhere?

Dushan
6th Jul 2014, 01:55
Has this policy of embargo and isolation ever had the desired effect, anywhere?

It all depends on who "starts" it, John.

Matari
6th Jul 2014, 02:05
John,

Cuba is not isolated. Got it?

Whether or not an embargo has a desired effect; i.e., change of government policy, depends on whether or not the government is 1) responsive to the needs of its people; or, 2) believes it is in their best interest to join the family of nations.

Examples of countries where boycotts have been employed to effect change are Vietnam, Myanmar, South Africa, and others.

Funny, I don't see you protesting the growing movement to boycott Israel. All depends on whose ox is being gored, eh John?

oldpax
6th Jul 2014, 02:18
I worked thee twice,1987/8 and later from 1991 to 93 .All this was on Guantanamo bay naval station.Then it was the fleet training school where ships came to "work up"before deployment .It was a nice place to work .One thing I saw was the number of drug boats caught by the US Coast Guard who had both ships and planes constantly on watch and they caught a lot!
Many Cubans tried to get over the fence line and succumbed to the minefields that surround the base ,some were lucky and made it.I picked up a swimmer one sunday,her and her husband and two friends had swum from Santiago de cuba and had got separated that night I took her to a friend who was married to a Cuban (first baby girl born after Castro shut the base of!),they called a number and a intel guy came and gave her a brief chat telling her they had her husband and friends !They would be kept in a safe house for two weeks while their stories were checked and then flown to Miami.Another time 22 people and a dog escaped in a old truck tank fitted with a engine and prop ,this ran out of fuel at the entrance to the bay and was towed in ,I saw it all.Why were those people leaving in droves from the "workers paradise"?By the way the SCUBA diving was some of the best there!!

John Hill
6th Jul 2014, 04:27
We all know when it started, about 1898..:sad:

pigboat
6th Jul 2014, 04:40
We all know when it started, about 1898..
Welp, that let's George Bush off the hook.

John Hill
6th Jul 2014, 06:18
Welp, that let's George Bush off the hook.

Not really, he had a duty to bring that situation to an end but chose not to and instead made GITMO a household word all around the world.

BenThere
6th Jul 2014, 07:09
I agree. The wisdom of creating Gitmo is gaining increasing renown. But I had no idea the whole world had yet come to that inescapable conclusion, given the widespread delusions of the post-9/11 period.

Dushan
6th Jul 2014, 13:03
Not really, he had a duty to bring that situation to an end but chose not to and instead made GITMO a household word all around the world.


Well, it's been so long, I almost forgot he was in the WH. But wait, didn't the current occupant campaign on the promise to close Gitmo? What happened? Reality?

Oh, BTW, not when. Who?

brickhistory
6th Jul 2014, 14:38
Well, there ya go:


Havana (AFP) - Cuba's National Assembly opened its biannual session, with the communist island's faltering economy topping the agenda, but no plans unveiled for change.


Cuba examines weak economy, seeks 'socialist development' (http://news.yahoo.com/cubas-lawmakers-examine-faltering-economy-172805914.html)


Of course, one wonders at this:


Foreign journalists were not allowed access to the gathering at a convention center in western Havana.


http://news.yahoo.com/cuba-mulls-economy-graft-parliament-session-150935232.html

con-pilot
6th Jul 2014, 17:53
he had a duty

A duty to just whom?

pigboat
6th Jul 2014, 20:13
New Zealanders everywhere.

John Hill
9th Jul 2014, 00:32
Interfering in the politics of another country?

Sen. Robert Menendez seeks probe of alleged Cuban plot to smear him - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/sen-robert-menendez-seeks-probe-of-alleged-cuban-plot-to-smear-him/2014/07/07/e9ba25a0-efe8-11e3-914c-1fbd0614e2d4_story.html)

Who says the cousins do not do irony?

con-pilot
9th Jul 2014, 00:49
Who says the cousins do not do irony?

The sublime irony is that Menendez is a Democrat. :p

John Hill
9th Jul 2014, 00:56
Sorry but I do not take part in the American Donkeycrat/Rethuglican 'bi-polar' political system.

Dushan
9th Jul 2014, 00:57
Well, there ya go:


Havana (AFP) - Cuba's National Assembly opened its biannual session, with the communist island's faltering economy topping the agenda, but no plans unveiled for change.




What, what? Not even addition of Icberg lettuce to the vegetable stands? How about pears to the fruit stands? I could have sworn I saw Iceberg lettuce and pears on the glossy brochures at the travel agency. Who would have taken pictures of something like that if it doesn't exist?

Dushan
9th Jul 2014, 01:00
Sorry but I do not take part in the American Donkeycrat/Rethuglican bi-polar political system.

If one is prepared to criticize everything America does, as some do here, you would think the very first requirement would be to be perfectly versed in the nuances of the country's political system and structure.

con-pilot
9th Jul 2014, 01:07
Sorry but I do not take part in the American Donkeycrat/Rethuglican 'bi-polar' political system.

Well of course you don't.

Matari
9th Jul 2014, 01:08
Who says we are cousins?

con-pilot
9th Jul 2014, 01:16
Who says we are cousins?


Well now back in my single days, I had what could be considered a “kissing cousin” from New Zealand that I met at a NBAA convention in Las Vegas, if we are indeed cousins as one here seems to think. :E

John Hill
9th Jul 2014, 01:18
Urban Dictionary: Cuzzie Bro (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cuzzie%20Bro)

Dushan
9th Jul 2014, 02:20
Is this the one that has "Field Marshall" in it?

BenThere
9th Jul 2014, 07:12
Sorry but I do not take part in the American Donkeycrat/Rethuglican 'bi-polar' political system.

I see you as akin to a Democrat on the basis of your posts here. In fact, you are a prototype of the ultimate Democrat, even though you don't take part.

Lonewolf_50
9th Jul 2014, 16:53
Not really, he had a duty to bring that situation to an end .
No, he did not. Your understanding of American policy formation is sadly bankrupt.

Beyond that, where do you come up with this kind of falsehood? Your opinion on a matter does not equal a duty obliging the head of state of any nation to do anything.

John Hill
9th Jul 2014, 20:37
Lonewolf 50, it patently obvious that the American policy towards the regime in Cuba (and North Korea) is achieving no good purpose and is contributing to the suffering and deprivation of millions of people while doing nothing to change the regimes. If it is not the President's duty to change the policy whose is it?

Whatever happened to "The buck stops here"?

Dushan
9th Jul 2014, 20:48
JH, without getting into the "who started it?" debate NK and Cuba are two completely different scenarios.

NK has isolated itself from the rest of the world. No westerner can come in and no trade with the West is being carried out as government policy (except for Li'll fat Kim's Cognac and his wife's Hermes purses).

Cuba has a great number of tourists coming to to the island, from all over the world, even some Americans (J Lo, Jimmy Carter, etc.). American companies are prevented from conducting business with Cuba (let'e not get into the minutia of the exact ways this is done), but any other country is free to do trade with cuba. Why don't they? Does NZ trade with Cuba? I haven't heard of "two free frozen lambs" with a bag of rice, but hey, maybe I missed it.

perthsaint
9th Jul 2014, 21:15
Now, Dushan, that's just not true, is it?

The Helms-Burton act specifically seeks to prevent non-US companies trading with Cuba by applying sanctions to those who do.

John Hill
9th Jul 2014, 21:28
I understand there are other restriction one of which forbids any ship calling at a US port that has recently (how long?) been in Cuba. You can imagine what that does for anyone trying to organise trade to Cuba, for example milk products from NZ.

brickhistory
9th Jul 2014, 21:38
Without acknowledging your claim (I simply don't know the truth of the matter), then doesn't it say something that said NZ companies choose to do business with the US and not adopt your 'principle's by trading with Cuba instead?

Something about personal, in this case, national responsibility is in order, I believe.

Dushan
9th Jul 2014, 21:55
I understand there are other restriction one of which forbids any ship calling at a US port that has recently (how long?) been in Cuba. You can imagine what that does for anyone trying to organise trade to Cuba, for example milk products from NZ.

January 1, 1959, I think.

No way to ship milk by air? Have a dedicated ship that does Aukland/Havana run only. And, besides, that claim sounds pretty bogus. As con-pilot told us plenty of "N" registered aircraft at HAV and Florida registered boats in the harbour. Where there is a will there is a way, but it's easier to moan about Uncle Sam's evil injustice, instead.

con-pilot
10th Jul 2014, 00:12
Canada?Cuba relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93Cuba_relations)

There are in total 85 Canadian companies and subsidiaries operating in Cuba, including brewer Labatt Breweries and Pizza Nova.

The Odd Couple: The EU and Cuba 1996-2008 | Brookings Institution (http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2008/09/cuba-hare)

EU exports to Cuba amounted to €1.43 billion (44 percent from Spain, followed by Italy and France), while imports from Cuba stood at €581 million.

Guess not everybody got the word. Maybe some of those countries should throw in milk or baby food.

Dushan
10th Jul 2014, 00:36
Personally I think Cubans are getting sick and tired of chicken and pork (free or not). I think they deserve some frozen lamb.

John Hill
10th Jul 2014, 10:24
brickhistory Without acknowledging your claim (I simply don't know the truth of the matter), then doesn't it say something that said NZ companies choose to do business with the US and not adopt your 'principle's by trading with Cuba instead?

No it does not say anything about NZ as NZ had no part in setting up the restrictions on shipping to Cuba.

BTW**, NZ has recently exported milk products to Cuba despite the difficulties in shipping.

(**BTW because this is not about NZ it is about America putting obstacles in the way of other countries wishing to trade with Cuba.)

brickhistory
10th Jul 2014, 14:28
Guess I have to spell it out:

NZ, and any other country is free to disregard any US action regarding Cuba.

Many do not.

Why is that?

Is it that the country decides its national interests are better tied to cooperating with the US?

Then why would said country decide that?

What the US does should be immaterial to another nation. Unless, of course, said other nation decides its better to be allied than an adversary.

Hence, the ability to choose and the need for national responsibility for those decisions made.

Dushan
10th Jul 2014, 14:36
Brick, too many lines and you're typing too fast.

Octopussy2
10th Jul 2014, 16:08
A vessel is not permitted to call at a US port within 180 days of calling at Cuba.

<I have no axe to grind in this debate, just happen to be able to answer a question posed earlier>

Dushan
10th Jul 2014, 16:44
Does anyone know after how many days, following a call at US port, is a vessel allowed to call at a North Korean port?

Octopussy2
10th Jul 2014, 17:17
I've no idea if there's any Korean legislation to that effect. But I've never seen a charterparty where North Korea wasn't excluded from trade.

Most of N. Korea's imports are from China (with a much smaller proportion from India). I don't know how much is by sea. It's possible Chinese or Indian flagged vessels trade there but the rest of the world's fleet simply doesn't.

John Hill
11th Jul 2014, 00:58
Perthsaint The Helms-Burton act specifically seeks to prevent non-US companies trading with Cuba by applying sanctions to those who do.

That is exactly right. The US, as part of their policy towards Cuba (and North Korea) attempts to penalise those who would trade with those countries. It is difficult to see what is hoped to be gained by these actions except 'because we can'.

BenThere
11th Jul 2014, 01:56
Can you cite any specific instance where the US has restrained any other nation's freedom to trade with Cuba? We may have indicated we would not deal with an entity trading with Cuba, but that didn't prevent them from doing so. And Helms-Burton was never really enforced, anyway.

Turbine D
11th Jul 2014, 02:30
The Helms Burton Act does not restrain any country from accomplishing trade business with Cuba. It does mean that non-US companies can be subject to legal action by doing business in Cuba under certain circumstances. AFAIK, this has never happened. The Act was very controversial world wide and within the United States. Both President Clinton and George W. Bush signed a provision that allowed for waver of the Act. Anyhow, Mexico, Canada passed legislation neutralizing the Act and both the UK and the EU passed rules and regulations bringing penalties for those complying with the Act.

Bottom line - the Helms Burton Act was ill-conceived and doesn't mean anything today.

Dushan
11th Jul 2014, 02:35
So selling baby formula and frozen lamb to Cuba is no big deal? Anyone who wishes to can do so.

John Hill
11th Jul 2014, 03:18
Bottom line - the Helms Burton Act was ill-conceived and doesn't mean anything today.

It has never been rescinded and can be used at any time to penalise any country that chooses to trade with Cuba.

Turbine D
11th Jul 2014, 14:11
So selling baby formula and frozen lamb to Cuba is no big deal? Anyone who wishes to can do so.
If you are in the export business for lamb and baby food, give it a whirl, shouldn't be a problem, Canada will protect you if it is a problem.

It has never been rescinded and can be used at any time to penalise any country that chooses to trade with Cuba.
Wouldn't be wise if your country is the UK or in the EU and perhaps some others.

Dushan
11th Jul 2014, 15:25
Wouldn't be wise if your country is the UK or in the EU and perhaps some others.

Like the ones that prohibit USN nuclear powered fleet to dock. Funny how those tit-for-tat thingies come to bite you in the ass.

MagnusP
11th Jul 2014, 15:51
Not allowed to irradiate the hobbits, Dushan. You know how it is.

Dushan
11th Jul 2014, 16:29
Yes, because if they go to North Korea, where it is complete darkness, they would glow and blind the inhabitants.

John Hill
11th Jul 2014, 21:05
Like the ones that prohibit USN nuclear powered fleet to dock. Funny how those tit-for-tat thingies come to bite you in the ass.

Vancouver for example.

BenThere
11th Jul 2014, 21:17
It's all just little notes recorded on our memories. So if and when New Zealand might appeal for help, we will remember the kerfluffle surrounding the ports of call of our nuclear ships.

Same holds true regarding the millions in the streets of EU protesting Iraq 2003, and the ululating of Palestinian women celebrating 9/11. My memory extends a long way, and the insults America has endured while generally promoting a better world are not forgotten.

I don't mean to threaten in any way, but I do retain my right to say 'I told you so' when Europe's Islamic civil wars start.

Dushan
11th Jul 2014, 21:25
Vancouver for example.

Big difference between some lefty Canadian City Council declaring themselves a "nuclear free zone" and the same being a policy of an entire nation, however small and insignificant.

John Hill
11th Jul 2014, 21:28
I don't mean to threaten in any way, but I do retain my right to say 'I told you so' when Europe's Islamic civil wars start.

I am sure you are really, really looking forward to that day when you will be able to gorge yourself on such a big helping of schadenfreude. Meanwhile the rest of us will get our seemingly daily opportunity to tell your lot "We told you so". For example, what is today's news from that little venture of your in Iraq?

John Hill
11th Jul 2014, 21:31
Big difference between some lefty Canadian City Council declaring themselves a "nuclear free zone" and the same being a policy of an entire nation, however small and insignificant.

"Hypocrisy is the last refuge of a scoundrel .." Apologies to Samuel Johnson.

BenThere
11th Jul 2014, 21:42
It seems Iraq has been lost. You must be so happy, John Hill.

That schadenfreude of which you speak is yours. But it was your side of the aisle that lost it.

con-pilot
11th Jul 2014, 21:48
I am sure you are really, really looking forward to that day when you will be able to gorge yourself on such a big helping of schadenfreude. Meanwhile the rest of us will get our seemingly daily opportunity to tell your lot "We told you so". For example, what is today's news from that little venture of your in Iraq?

I thought this thread was about Cuba?

Dushan
11th Jul 2014, 21:54
Yes it is. That's why we are discussing USN nuclear powered fleet, Canadian cities, New Zealand baby formula and frozen lamb, and Iraq.

What is it about JB that you don't understand Cpt. con-pilot?

con-pilot
11th Jul 2014, 22:01
What is it about JB that you don't understand Cpt. con-pilot?

Sorry, brain fart.

Also, I've not had me first Scotch.

So carry on.

John Hill
11th Jul 2014, 22:07
But it was your side of the aisle that lost it.

If you are going to make an assertion like that BenThere you really should post something to justify it.

What did you do in Iraq? For what it is worth (and that is not much) I did what I could in Baghdad towards restoring normality and it cost the lives of three of my colleagues.

BenThere
11th Jul 2014, 22:25
What did you do in Iraq?

I was activated as a reservist and fought GW1, spending almost a year in Saudi Arabia. GWII came at the end of my air force reserve career and I didn't go over, but I refueled a bunch of C-117 and C-5 missions on their way there in 2002-2003. I also transported wounded soldiers from Andrews who were ambulatory enough to make the crossing from Landstuhl. That was the most emotionally tasking experience I had over 30 years flying for USAF. It broke my heart to see the very young troops, severely wounded, with attitudes so positive, facing a challenge I never had to.

I'm sorry you feel responsible for the lives of three of your colleagues. That's a very heavy burden to bear. I hope you can make peace with it. If you were doing your job the best you could it's not your fault.

John Hill
12th Jul 2014, 04:23
I did not say I felt responsible for the deaths of my colleagues.

Dushan
12th Jul 2014, 09:00
I did not say I felt responsible for the deaths of my colleagues.

I did what I could in Baghdad towards restoring normality and it cost the lives of three of my colleagues.

It sure sounds like that is what you are saying.

Pinky the pilot
12th Jul 2014, 09:43
thought this thread was about Cuba?

What is it about JB that you don't understand Cpt. con-pilot?

Sorry, brain fart.

Also, I've not had me first Scotch.


I`ve only had one glass of Red and I still don`t get it either.:confused:

This is a thread about Cuba, isn`t it?:}

El Grifo
12th Jul 2014, 18:37
I learned some time ago to stay away from this polarised crap.

Akin to self flagellation no less :-)

El G.

Dushan
12th Jul 2014, 18:42
And, yet, you still can't resist, can you?:E

Cheers El. G:ok:

El Grifo
12th Jul 2014, 18:52
All good here Dush ! Full blown Summer :-)

El G.

West Coast
12th Jul 2014, 23:04
I was begining to think all our euro huggies had bugged out. Glad to see otherwise.

Cacophonix
12th Jul 2014, 23:13
I was begining to think all our euro huggies had bugged out. Glad to see otherwise.

We are all too busy smoking Cuban cigars, drinking rum and actually travelling to Cuba and oppressing those poor people by listening to their music and wasting our paltry Euros on their economy (I would post a Cuban video but clearly that might constitute some sort of thought crime so I won't) and laughing at the bulk of the baloney on this thread (even if that involves laughing at our own posts)...

Caco

charliegolf
12th Jul 2014, 23:32
I'm going in October- I don't smoke and I don't like rum. Am I going to have a good time? Oh I am a grumpy farker too. Please tell me there's hope!

CG (TIC)

West Coast
13th Jul 2014, 00:14
Caco

Enjoy! A rum and coke sounds good.

Iffin it was up to me, the embargo of Cuba would have ben lifted years ago. While you're there, talk domestic politics with the locals in public.

Or just enjoy the sun and sand. Probably best for everyone's "health" if you do that.

pigboat
13th Jul 2014, 02:11
I'm going in October- I don't smoke and I don't like rum. Am I going to have a good time?
Well, my next door neighbor has been going to Cuba a couple of times a year for the last 10 or so. He doesn't smoke either but he does golf and he learned to like rum. The tourist areas are clean, cheap and the people are fantastic, which is why he keeps going back.

galaxy flyer
13th Jul 2014, 04:24
That and the un-Canada like weather! :p

GF

pigboat
13th Jul 2014, 04:38
Well, there's that. :D

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 05:25
This neighbour who takes his holidays in Cuba, does he ever complain of loud obnoxious fellow tourists spoiling the fun for everyone?

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK
13th Jul 2014, 06:26
BenThere

It seems Iraq has been lost. But it was your side of the aisle that lost it.

What a crock of s***e. Iraq was lost the day the cowboy bungled in there and dismantled the army and security forces.

BenThere
13th Jul 2014, 06:31
No, grasshopper. Iraq was in pretty good shape after the surge. The Sunnis, Shia, and Kurds were pretty much on board. Then we had the 2008 election and policy changed.

Man up, Lima.

Cacophonix
13th Jul 2014, 06:51
Kurds were pretty much on board

The Kurds are much more enamored of the current situation with the state that was Iraq completely destroyed, both Sunnis and Shias weakened by outright civil war and the Kurds now in control of cities and oilfields they have coveted for many years...

Kurds on Iraq's new faultline feel destiny beckoning | World news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/11/kurds-isis-frontier-destiny-beckons)

Everything comes to him that waits... and the Kurds have been waiting some time.

I suppose we could blame the Ottoman's for failing to have a more resilient empire, the English for being mightily stupid in their treaties and redrawing of maps

Iraq - Historical Setting - World War I and the British Mandate (http://historymedren.about.com/library/text/bltxtiraq9.htm)

or the US for undoing the cement at the middle of the unholy melange.

Either way it really doesn't matter to the Iraqis now for as some Roman bloke said, alea iacta est and nothing in Iraq will ever be the same!

It is enough to make a man want to have another sip of Cuban rum with that very American coke!

Caco

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK
13th Jul 2014, 07:06
Do you really believe some of the tripe you write BenThere ?

I guess you'd have wanted 140,000 US troops still there then as sitting targets trying to keep a lid on sectarian tensions and dealing with the spill over from Syria ?

West Coast
13th Jul 2014, 07:52
Like it or not junk, it was relatively peaceful during that period. You might argue it wasn't a sustainable peace given that it took a boatload of manpower to maintain, but arguing that Itaq was in the $hitter at that point is disingenuous on your part.

You don't want to do that, do you?

Dushan
13th Jul 2014, 08:00
This neighbour who takes his holidays in Cuba, does he ever complain of loud obnoxious fellow tourists spoiling the fun for everyone?

The English or the Germans?

Cacophonix
13th Jul 2014, 08:04
The English or the Germans?

Couldn't have been those reasonable, generally quiet Canucks I guess!

What is it about the Canadians that they are generally so polite and civilized overseas?

Give me an ugly American any day. It is so much easier to patronise them in a smug infuriating kind of European way! ;)

Caco

Toadstool
13th Jul 2014, 08:32
No, grasshopper. Iraq was in pretty good shape after the surge. The Sunnis, Shia, and Kurds were pretty much on board. Then we had the 2008 election and policy changed.

Man up, Lima.

Yep, it was all Obama's fault.:ok:

Bush, what a visionary:E

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 08:39
Caco, nowadays those 'Canucks' you might meet in some parts of the world are actually Yanks regardless of the maple leaf sewn on their rucksacks.

https://nz.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120522120030AAZWzRP

West Coast
13th Jul 2014, 08:44
Caco

Your ramblings got me to do some searching. Indeed some do rate US tourists as ugly Americans. A number of lists showed the British, French and Germans in hot pursuit of the title. The article below from a NZ paper is standard fare, the comments though are telling. Many respondents defend US tourists, others point out that that because of the high population that there's going alot of US tourists overseas. Some maintain US tourists are stupid by pointing to a lone encounter with one who happened to show their ignorance. This amusing to me after reading some silly high number of Britons couldn't identify Greece on a map. A fellow member of the EU yet something like 74% of your lot haven't a clue where it is. I surely can identify all the states of the US. You would think if for nothing else, they could identify it because of all the EU money that was dumped there. Alas, I recognize not all my fellow countrymen can find Deleware on a map.
It's also funny the number of respondents from NZ who rate their countrymen as ugly tourists, hoping others will think they're Aussies when acting stupid.

Perhaps I'll go harass some Brits tomorrow at mission beach. The Adidas and banana hammocks along with lily white skin in the am and lobster red skin in the pm make for easy identification.

Guess every country has them huh?

Top 10 notoriously bad tourists | Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/9063135/Top-10-notoriously-bad-tourists)

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 09:00
It's also funny the number of respondents from NZ who rate their countrymen as ugly tourists, hoping others will think they're Aussies when acting stupid.

Let's see some examples of this then.

(I am not expecting much.)

Cacophonix
13th Jul 2014, 09:01
West Coast, I did not expect you of all people to bite, but as you have then ramble on with me if you will! ;)

Here in the UK we encourage US tourists and we don't think of them all as ugly Americans. Indeed for the most part they are charming and generally pleased to be enjoying the many wonders of our magnificent country, culture and cuisine but just once in while you will get an ugly one and boy when Americans want to be ugly, they can be (you know what I mean)...!

All in all we try not point to the south side of the Thames from the Embankment and say "look, you can see France from here", nor do we suggest they eat in an Angus steak house when they want a good Texan steak... but, what the hell, sometimes the devil just bites and so why struggle, just yield?

I suppose I protest too much as I originally hail from South Africa but a penchant for English girls with luminous skin has derailed me and so I can only dream of those Californian beaches , besmirched as they are with hideous drunken and beetroot red Brits! :ok:

Caco

West Coast
13th Jul 2014, 09:15
How is sharing some banter biting? I'm just having fun with ya.

Cacophonix
13th Jul 2014, 09:24
How is sharing some banter biting? I'm just having fun with ya.

You know what it is like with us South Africans... no sense of banter or irony at all... ;)

Caco

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 09:26
It is really sad that young Americans wanting to see the world are apparently so ashamed of their country they choose to pose as Canadians.

P.S. I am just having a bit of fun, you know?

West Coast
13th Jul 2014, 09:32
Caco

C'mon now, you know it's the Yanks that have no sense of irony. It's the one thing your lot gives us credit for, don't take that away.

Cacophonix
13th Jul 2014, 09:32
I wonder what kind of tourists Cubans will be when they finally get to travel the world freely...?

Most of the Cubans I have met outside Cuba and the USA have been doctors working in Africa and, wherever they are, they seem to be nice folks in the main...

Caco

Pinky the pilot
13th Jul 2014, 09:35
Most of the Cubans I have met outside Cuba and the USA have been doctors working in Africa and, wherever they are, they seem to be nice folks in the main...

I believe that quite a few years ago now there were some Cubans `working` in parts of Africa who were not Doctors or very nice people at all really.:ooh:

Knew a bloke who had to `deal` with some of them from time to time.:uhoh:

Cacophonix
13th Jul 2014, 09:37
C'mon now, you know it's the Yanks that have no sense of irony. It's the one thing your lot gives us credit for, don't take that away.

Aw shucks since you put it that way.

Actually I give the Yanks their due, they do irony straight faced and with a stiff upper lip and a gleam in the eye that would make even a Brit proud! :)

Caco

Cacophonix
13th Jul 2014, 09:40
in parts of Africa who were not Doctors or very nice people at all really.


Met a couple of those.

In truth they were, for the most part, young schmucks caught up by world politics and forces far bigger than them. Pleased to be out of Cuba's 'paradise' and hoping not to meet too many South Africans in Africa.

Caco

West Coast
13th Jul 2014, 09:44
E2NZ.org | A long hard look at New Zealand (http://e2nz.org/)

Fascinating reading in the migrants tales area. Sounds like I'll be treated a whole lot better in Cuba than in NZ.

Discount the Yank entries and the Brits alone paint a damning picture of everyday life in NZ. Quite the xenophobic lot. That said, I'm sure most are just good folk.

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 09:44
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3895/14639506984_cc42c6da50_c.jpg


Two young women way out of their usual environment.

West Coast
13th Jul 2014, 09:45
Wish I could find the article again about how Fidel managed to ship all those happy go lucky socialist freedom fighters to Africa.

Lemme see

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 09:47
Sounds like I'll be treated a whole lot better in Cuba than in NZ.

Discount the Yank entries and the Brits alone paint a damning picture of everyday life in NZ. Quite the xenophobic lot. That said, I'm sure most are just good folk.

NZ is worse than your wildest nightmares, best you stay away, as far away as possible.

(Just kidding of course!)

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK
13th Jul 2014, 09:48
Like it or not junk, it was relatively peaceful during that period.

If you think thousands of coalition troops killed and maimed during that period was relatively peaceful then I'd agree with you West Coast. Remind me, what was the reason blunder boy and his poodle went in there for ? Oh yeah, WMDs. Any luck yet ?

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 09:53
..........deleted..............double post

West Coast
13th Jul 2014, 09:53
History of Cubana de Aviación - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Cubana_de_Aviación)


Necessity is the mother of invention. Kudos to the Cuban maintainers for keeping the fleet flying.

West Coast
13th Jul 2014, 09:59
Junk

Can uninvade. The responsibility was at that point to reduce the level of violence. That succeeded during the surge. Disprove that.

you think thousands of coalition troops killed and maimed during that period was relatively peaceful

The level of deaths went down. Down to the point that non hostile deaths exceeded those that happened in combat.

File:US Casualties.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Casualties.jpg)

Cacophonix
13th Jul 2014, 10:04
Kudos to the Cuban maintainers for keeping the fleet flying.

Broken link or, worse, state censorship... now that was funny or was it ironic...? :)

Caco

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 10:08
The level of deaths went down. Down to the point that non hostile deaths exceeded those that happened in combat.

Whoop-de-do! Thank heaven for small mercies eh?

West Coast
13th Jul 2014, 10:11
Caco

Scrol down about 1/4th of the page on this link. Not as detailed as the one that wouldn't open. It discussed how the mx folks took parts from Russian made aircraft and adopted them to work on the British Britannia instead.


Cuban intervention in Angola - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_intervention_in_Angola)

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 10:12
History of Cubana de Aviación - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Cubana_de_Aviacion)

Cacophonix
13th Jul 2014, 10:12
point that non hostile deaths exceeded those that happened in combat.

American deaths sure (and glad for that stat) but for the most part the average Iraqi 'citizen' has seen casualties run at a depressingly high rate (and now growing) whether the 'allies' were there or not.

But say guys, aren't we mixing our metaphors here. This thread is about Cuba, salsa music and the rest...

Caco

Cacophonix
13th Jul 2014, 10:20
Scrol down about 1/4th of the page on this link. Not as detailed as the one that wouldn't open. It discussed how the mx folks took parts from Russian made aircraft and adopted them to work on the British Britannia instead.

Cheers West Coast. really interesting.

I have always found the Cuban use of Russian aircraft interesting...

Didn't even know they had flown the Britannia.

Dare I post a video (I promise that I will limit myself to one a week outside the music thread)...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5aC5PSydc

Caco

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 10:28
Yes, this is supposed to be about Cuba and those links make interesting reading.

What did America hope to gain by pressuring Canada and others to make it impossible for Cubana to operate trans-Atlantic?

BTW, I remember calling in at Gander 30 or so years ago and being told that Ganda would always be there while needed by the RNZAF and Cuba crossing the Atlantic, we were in a 727.

West Coast
13th Jul 2014, 10:45
but for the most part the average Iraqi 'citizen' has seen casualties run at a depressingly high rate

https://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/baghdad-surge/

The number of Iraqi deaths were reduced during the surge. Of course any casualty is one too many.

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 10:47
The number of Iraqi deaths were reduced during the surge. Of course any casualty is one too many.

But not reduced enough to bring back all those killed since and during the invasion.

Cacophonix
13th Jul 2014, 10:49
The number of Iraqi deaths were reduced during the surge. Of course any casualty is one too many.

Fair enough on both points!

Caco

pigboat
13th Jul 2014, 14:56
This neighbour who takes his holidays in Cuba, does he ever complain of loud obnoxious fellow tourists spoiling the fun for everyone?
Yeah, but he has learned to stay away from the spots where the NZers hang out. :p

Matari
13th Jul 2014, 16:00
Surely the open-minded humanists here care about the average Cuban? Or is the attraction simply how cheap the place is compared with their typical exotic locale, Torremolinos?

The Last Communist City by Michael J. Totten, City Journal Spring 2014 (http://www.city-journal.org/2014/24_2_havana.html)

A single restaurant meal in Havana costs an entire month’s salary. One night in a hotel costs five months’ salary. A middle-class tourist from abroad can easily spend more in one day than most Cubans make in a year. I had dinner with four Americans at one of the paladars. The only Cubans in the restaurant were the cooks and the waiters. The bill for the five of us came to about $100. That’s five months’ salary.

If he were still around, Hemingway would be stunned to see what has happened to his old haunt. Cubans certainly aren’t happy about it, but the tourists are another story—especially the world’s remaining Marxoid fellow travelers, who show up in Havana by the planeload. Such people are clearly unteachable. I got into an argument with one at the Floridita when I pointed out that none of the patrons were Cuban. “There are places in the United States that some can’t afford,” she retorted. Sure, but come on. Not even the poorest Americans have to pay a week’s wage for a beer.

Cubans in the hotel industry see how foreigners live. The government can’t hide it without shutting the hotels down entirely, and it can’t do that because it needs the money. I changed a few hundred American dollars into convertible pesos at the front desk. The woman at the counter didn’t blink when I handed over my cash—she does this all day—but when she first got the job, it must have been shattering to make such an exchange. That’s why the regime wants to keep foreigners and locals apart.
Havana was a magnificent Western city once. It should be compared not with Baghdad, Kabul, Guatemala City, or Port-au-Prince but with formerly Communist Budapest, Prague, or Berlin. Havana’s history mirrors theirs, after all.

Dushan
13th Jul 2014, 18:30
Apparently those $262,000 Peugeots are not selling too well.

But I am sure there are some very nice glossy brochures to be found.

Cuba opens up car sales to the public for the first time in decades and the prices are insane | Financial Post (http://business.financialpost.com/2014/07/11/cuba-opens-up-car-sales-to-the-public-for-the-first-time-in-decades-and-the-prices-are-insane/?__federated=1)


A price list hanging on the green chain-link fence hints at why: US$85,000 for a 6-year-old Peugeot compact; US$46,000 for a tiny 2008 Citroen C3 hatchback that would cost less than a third of that in Europe. Elsewhere, a larger, new Peugeot 508 lists for US$262,000, five times its price in Britain — and more than a millennium worth of paychecks in Cuba, where wages average about US$20 a month.

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 20:38
It seems no one is able to explain why the US persists in policies that do nothing but preserve the hard conditions faced by the average Cuban.

Matari
13th Jul 2014, 21:22
It is a puzzle why the Cuban government is so antagonistic, John. If they had aligned themselves with the U.S., they would be as prosperous as South Korea.

I suppose the only problem is that under a democratic government, the murderous Castros would have been voted out long ago. That might be just a small part of the problem, don'tcha think?

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 21:23
Like I said "no one is able to explain why the US persists in policies that do nothing but preserve the hard conditions faced by the average Cuban."

VFD
13th Jul 2014, 21:43
Like I said "no one is able to explain why the US persists in policies that do nothing but preserve the hard conditions faced by the average Cuban."
My question would be where does it become the responsibility of the US or any other country for that matter to ensure the average Cuban has an above average life style?


VFD

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 21:52
My question would be where does it become the responsibility of the US or any other country for that matter to ensure the average Cuban has an above average life style?

That is not the issue. Right now America operates policies that tend to preserve the current regime and conditions in Cuba. It is not a matter of doing something, it is a matter of stopping doing it. So why does America place obstructions in the path of Cuban trade and economic development?

VFD
13th Jul 2014, 22:12
So why does America place obstructions in the path of Cuban trade and economic development? Not taking responsibility and blaming others seems to be common symptom with failed socialist governments.


VFD

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 22:17
Yea, yea, we know all that but why does America place obstructions in the path of Cuban trade and economic development?

Dushan
13th Jul 2014, 22:28
Sumple answer JH. Because Cuban communists seized all US owned assets in Cuba and confiscated them. When they give them back there'll be trade.

perthsaint
13th Jul 2014, 22:42
The US Government seized Iranian assets earlier this year.

Presumably they now operate a trade embargo against themselves.

500N
13th Jul 2014, 22:46
Dushan

I always wondered why the US hasn't lifted the embargo.

Dushan
13th Jul 2014, 22:50
The US Government seized Iranian assets earlier this year.

Presumably they now operate a trade embargo against themselves.

Wrong. Now Iranians can impose an embargo on US. No more pistachios for you.

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 22:51
The embargoes do nothing to address the claims over lost 'property' so why does America continue with them?

Presumably if/when America ever gets back what they think is their's they will immediately pass it on to the Spanish.

Dushan
13th Jul 2014, 22:55
Why don't you suggest to your communist buddies to rerun the confiscated property belonging to US citizens and corporations and see what happens. I bet you the embargo will be lifted before the ink dries on the deeds.

Cacophonix
13th Jul 2014, 22:57
always wondered why the US hasn't lifted the embargo.

Bad grace and bug up their collective arse...

Sides a growing understanding that none of their pilots can fly a non precision approach these days..l

Caco

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 23:00
Yea, most likely bug up the arse syndrome and we need no more evidence than that they execute the same policies against countries where no property claims are involved.

BenThere
13th Jul 2014, 23:04
In reality, the US doesn't impede Cuba's ability to trade with others and run their economy as they see fit (why does this reality escape otherwise intelligent people?)

US policy is not to trade with Cuba, which is within our remit. Everyone else is free to do so, and does.

The woes and travails of the Cuban people can be laid entirely at the feet of virulent Socialism, and are not caused by US policy.

con-pilot
13th Jul 2014, 23:23
Presumably if/when America ever gets back what they think is their's they will immediately pass it on to the Spanish.

One more time your appalling knowledge of history is noted.

Cuba was a free, separate nation years before Castro showed up on the scene. In 1898 to be exact.

By the way, when are you going to give back New Zealand to the Maoris?

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 23:29
In reality, the US doesn't impede Cuba's ability to trade with others a..

That is incorrect and the US restrictions of shipping that calls on Cuba is an example.

VFD
13th Jul 2014, 23:30
The woes and travails of the Cuban people can be laid entirely at the feet of virulent Socialism, and are not caused by US policyExactly, the only time Cuba has been able to sustain itself in the last 3 decades has been due to massive subsidies from Soviets and Venezuela.
Soviets pulled back and Venezuela has been subsidizing Cuba to the tune of 115-135Billion per year supplying 2/3rds of its oil.
The socialist government in Venezuela is running out of money and has threatened to pull Cuban subsidies.
It appears the concept of "trade" means subsidies by the socialism definition.



VFD

500N
13th Jul 2014, 23:30
The woes and travails of the Cuban people can be laid entirely at the feet of virulent Socialism, and are not caused by US policy.

I watched a very interesting program on TV a while ago about how certain things are being relaxed in Cuba.

And shock horror, they allow business to open and trade for profit
and they focused on a guy who bought and sold house items like
kitchen sinks.

I thought that was Capitalism !

But it was a good show.

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 23:35
1898, that was when America, with others, drove Spain from Cuba. Cuba belongs to Spain so give it back!

By the way, when are you going to give back New Zealand to the Maoris?
Good question so why not start a thread on that topic?

Dushan
13th Jul 2014, 23:36
I watched a very interesting program on TV a while ago about how certain things are being relaxed in Cuba.

And shock horror, they allow business to open and trade for profit
and they focused on a guy who bought and sold house items like
kitchen sinks.

I thought that was Capitalism !

But it was a good show.

It's capitalism when it just happens without anyone having to "allow it". Read the article I posted, a few posts back, about how Cuban government "allows" citizens to buy and sell automobiles and how car dealerships are government owned with prices out of this world.

con-pilot
13th Jul 2014, 23:45
1898, that was when America, with others, drove Spain from Cuba. Cuba belongs to Spain so give it back!


It was called the Spanish American War, key word being WAR.

The US did not keep Cuba after we defeated Spain, it became a nation, just like New Zealand is a nation. We cannot give Cuba back to Spain because it is not ours to give back.

If Cuba belongs to anyone, look up the Caribe Indians.

Not that it will do any good to them, as the Spanish, French and the English killed them all off. There are none left.

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 23:48
You could start by giving GITMO to the Spaniards!:)

What's the big deal about war? Does that somehow change the issue?

500N
13th Jul 2014, 23:53
You could start by giving GITMO to the Spaniards!:)

I wouldn't suggest that if I was you John, then more rendition flights to far away places would have to occur and open up the possibility that prisoners would be tortured where you lefties don't have any say, control or knowledge !

con-pilot
13th Jul 2014, 23:54
You could start by giving GITMO to the Spaniards!

Now that would annoy the Castro brothers. :p



By the way, we still couldn't, Guantanamo Bay belongs to Cuba, not us, not Spain, we're just renting it.

John Hill
13th Jul 2014, 23:55
Guantanamo Bay is rented from the Republic of Cuba who took it by force from the Spaniards. Just give it back to Spain.

con-pilot
13th Jul 2014, 23:59
Back to circling the wagons by yourself again are you John?

Because that is all you are doing, going around in circles.

gsky
14th Jul 2014, 00:02
Con pilot

Cuba debate/issues notwithstanding...

your comment..
"
If Cuba belongs to anyone, look up the Caribe Indians.

Not that it will do any good to them, as the Spanish, French and the English killed them all off. There are none left."

Extraordinary comment coming from you.
I guess you are forgetting about the history of the "American ' Indians!

Glass houses/stones .. I think!!!

John Hill
14th Jul 2014, 00:09
Back to circling the wagons by yourself again are you John?

Because that is all you are doing, going around in circles.

Is that the best you can do?

You have not yet explained the significance of 'WAR' in your earlier post.

con-pilot
14th Jul 2014, 00:12
Extraordinary comment coming from you.
I guess you are forgetting about the history of the "American ' Indians!


I am part American Indian. So I do believe I'm much more knowable about what the European invaders of the Americas did to the indigenous inhabits than you.

Giving small pox infected blankets to American Indians was a little British trick.

Talk about living in glass houses indeed. :rolleyes:

BenThere
14th Jul 2014, 00:19
No patch of land on earth belongs to anyone. It's yours only if you can defend it.

That's the significance of war, JH.

con-pilot
14th Jul 2014, 00:19
Enough John, I'm not going to play your word games.

In the infamous words of President Bill Clinton; "Define sex."

I know what 'sex' means just as I do 'war'.

Sad that you do not.

However, if you insist, you may play by yourself, something I'm very sure you excel at. :p

John Hill
14th Jul 2014, 00:24
Enough John, I'm not going to play your word games.

Are you the same con-pilot who wrote It was called the Spanish American War, key word being WAR.?

Obviously you have changed your mind about your 'key word'.


"Elvis has left the building...":p

John Hill
14th Jul 2014, 00:27
No patch of land on earth belongs to anyone. It's yours only if you can defend it.

So why would any American think that if you pout and stamp your feet enough you will regain the sugar fields, mines, oil fields of Cuba? They lost them, they are gone.

500N
14th Jul 2014, 00:32
So why would any American think that if you pout and stamp your feet enough you will regain the sugar fields, mines, oil fields of Cuba? They lost them, they are gone.

The same reason the Maoris pout and stamp there feet in NZ, to win concessions from the lefties because they tend to feel guilty :rolleyes:

BenThere
14th Jul 2014, 00:43
Do you have any evidence of pouting and stamping of feet, or are you just trying to create an emotive, disparaging visualization as a form of propaganda?

By the way, what exactly is Cuba's oil production? You're grasping, I think. If it's so significant, why does Venezuela supply them with so much?

John Hill
14th Jul 2014, 00:44
Did you start a thread on the topic of the Maoris in NZ?

John Hill
14th Jul 2014, 00:46
Do you have any evidence of pouting and stamping of feet, or are you just trying to create an emotive, disparaging visualization as a form of propaganda?

Metaphor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor)

BenThere
14th Jul 2014, 00:47
No. Wasn't me. Did you?

John Hill
14th Jul 2014, 00:55
By the way, what exactly is Cuba's oil production?


"The area potentially has up to 20 billion barrels of oil..............."
http://rt.com/business/172204-russia-cuba-rosneft-cupet/

BenThere
14th Jul 2014, 00:59
Nevertheless, having perused your Wiki treatise on metaphor, I'd say the pouting, foot-stamping metaphor you introduced would apply more to you than me.

The US is the unquestioned hegemon in the Caribbean, yet for the past fifty years we have largely and benignly allowed Cuba its sovereignty and have relied that Cubans themselves would ultimately come to the logical conclusion that Socialism sucks, and overthrow it on their own.

John Hill
14th Jul 2014, 01:04
.....relied that Cubans themselves would ultimately come to the logical conclusion that Socialism sucks, and overthrow it on their own.

How many decades have you been waiting now?:(

BenThere
14th Jul 2014, 01:07
It takes time. We waited eight decades for Russia, five for China, five for Eastern Europe, four for Southeast Asia. They'll come around, just you wait and see.

John Hill
14th Jul 2014, 01:10
Meanwhile your government does what they can to preserve the status quo.

BenThere
14th Jul 2014, 01:11
We like status quo. It's normal.

John Hill
14th Jul 2014, 01:24
Of course, that is the essence of Conservatism, do nothing yourself and obstruct others who seek to make progress.

Dushan
14th Jul 2014, 01:27
I guess that's why the socialists call themselves "progressive".

BenThere
14th Jul 2014, 01:55
I wouldn't say we do nothing. We chip away at them where we can. And by the way, we try to obstruct others who obstruct progress; and not only do they obstruct progress, they are out to destroy the progress we've made.

For instance, did you happen to look at the chart of US median household income by year chart I posted on the US thread? President Obama's administration has reduced Americans' inflation-adjusted income by 10% from the level President Bush left us with. I wouldn't call that progress.

Matari
14th Jul 2014, 02:06
John, since you are unable to understand that the North Korean leaders are the authors of their peoples' misery, you will have similar difficulty understanding the plight of the Cuban people.

John Hill
14th Jul 2014, 04:31
President Obama's administration has reduced Americans' inflation-adjusted income by 10% from the level President Bush left us with.

Sounds like the conservatives are getting very good at obstructing progress. They should be as they have been at it for a while now..
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/26/democrats-gop-plot-obstruct-obama

BenThere
14th Jul 2014, 04:57
The sad truth, though, is that incomes are down 10% across the board, except for those who pony up at the president's fundraisers.

I'm sorry you had to go back to 2012 to post a link favorable to your point of view.

Unfortunately, millions of Americans are losing the health care they had; millions of Americans have been reduced from full time employment with benefits to part-time with no benefits; states are going bankrupt from Medicaid bills; and my taxes, water bills, energy bills, food bills are going up, despite what the government says.

I can't say I'm a newly pissed off voter. I saw this coming in 2006.

John Hill
14th Jul 2014, 05:04
Why should you be pissed off, millions loose health care, whose fault is that? Did they expect the government to take care of them? Are they really socialists?

Millions reduced to part time employment. Whose fault is that? Were they asking too much? What 'benefits' did they expect, more socialist handouts perhaps?

Of course your taxes are going up, you should have tried harder and got yourself into the 1%ers where tax would not be a problem for you.

BenThere
14th Jul 2014, 05:28
If you get to the top 1%, taxes are a big problem for you. Or are you kidding yourself again.

The reality is that middle class workers are being reduced from full time with benefits to part time with no benefits - EN MASSE.

Companies who once paid for employee health care are dropping it - EN MASSE.

And this is only the beginning of the turmoil of Obamacare.

We had a system that delivered platinum health care to working people, like me, across the board.

You tell me why if it was good we tossed it away.

John Hill
14th Jul 2014, 05:47
I dont understand your problem. You write like you hate every flavour of socialism then you complain because socialist health care is no longer available to you.

New Zealand is one of the most socialist countries around. Womb to tomb health care, sickness and unemployment benefits, subsidised housing, free education, universal superannuation and so on. That does not mean people can not make a lot of money as many do (even I made enough for a comfortable secure retirement in a new house). Socialism sucks, I should know!!!!

BenThere
14th Jul 2014, 05:52
No, it wasn't socialist health care. It was paid for out of wages. It fostered medical advances, greater longevity, and medical security. Obamacare has added negligible numbers to the insured, and raised the cost for just about everyone while reducing accessibility.

You tell me how that is good.

And what if you once worked 40 hours/week at $20/hour with health insurance and now are limited to 29 hours/week with no health insurance? Would you consider that 'progress'?

John Hill
14th Jul 2014, 05:56
Did Conservatives work against 'Obamacare'? I expect they did and this contributed to whatever problems there might be.

And what if you once worked 40 hours/week at $20/hour with health insurance and now are limited to 29 hours/week with no health insurance? Would you consider that 'progress'?

Of course that is not progress but as a Conservative you do not want progress so what is your beef?

BenThere
14th Jul 2014, 06:01
Obamacare did not get any conservative votes. It's all on the 2006 and 2008 elected Democrat congresses. They had the votes, got it passed, and now we're stuck with it. Conservatives had nothing to do with it.

John Hill
14th Jul 2014, 06:05
Conservatives had nothing to do with Obamacare? Seems your lot missed your opportunity and should have had a national health care system in place in the Bush era.

Toadstool
14th Jul 2014, 06:06
A question based on this:

The uninsured rate for people ages 19 to 64 declined from 20 percent in the July-to-September 2013 period to 15 percent in the April-to-June 2014 period. An estimated 9.5 million fewer adults were uninsured.

Do you consider this a good or bad thing?

BenThere
14th Jul 2014, 06:21
That would be good. But I question your stats.

Many of the enrollees have been invalidated. Also, many have opted out of being insured. You need to account for the net, not just the accretions.

A lot of people, millions of them, in fact, have lost their health care insurance coverage under Obamacare. Many of them have died because of it.

John Hill
14th Jul 2014, 06:31
Insurance is not good, insurance is a form of socialist activity where many pool their contributions for the benefit of the unfortunate few.

BenThere
14th Jul 2014, 06:39
Pooling of risk, the definition of insurance, is altogether different, and unrelated to centralized government Socialism. Insurance is voluntary, to begin with.