Virgin Australia Cadetship 2012 & 2013 [Archive]

neville_nobody

7th Oct 2011, 11:40

Cadetships are wonderful programmes that help alleviate the pressure on improving terms through attrition. Jetstar,Qantaslink,Cobham and Rex all know what advantages these programs bring to their organisations

Yep the airlines spin money all the way through. They make money on the training they then get cheap captive labour who's careers they then have complete control over.

I feel for guys just starting out in GA as these cadet courses are starting to block the career progression of GA pilot's. The more cadet's there are in regionals the less jobs available to guys from GA.

Biggles266

7th Oct 2011, 12:17

Do we have links to these announcements or the cadetship itself?

Dragun

7th Oct 2011, 22:22

Me thinks a lot of guys who have applications in at Virgin won't be very happy to hear this news (if it's for real).

Although, it sounds like it may only be a crew covering exercise for Skywest's east coast ATR operation?

Muff Hunter

8th Oct 2011, 00:19

Great...........more useless cadets!!:ugh::ugh:

Most of the ones at JQ are f'n useless and should be banging around in a C150 somewhere.

aviationboy

8th Oct 2011, 11:21

2 years my application has been in at Virgin... thousands of hours turbine..... never got a call. Let's just hire cadets instead. :ugh:

(I know it is for the ATR only but still)

MonsterC01

8th Oct 2011, 11:38

Not just for the ATR operation.

Cadets thru this program will be for the ATR, and the back seat of the 777. Maybe even straight into a window seat on the jungle jet. That's the rumor from on top the operations management mountain.

Can imagine how welcomed their going to be by the ATR crews when they realize the halfwit in the seat next to them can move up to Virgin Australia and they can't.

JB, some parts of the Qantas culture/business model need to stay at Qantas.

The Monster :E

JetA_OK

8th Oct 2011, 12:09

This can't be right. From reading these pages Virgin has been specifically designed to make pilots happy. It's the model to which all currently profitable airlines must aspire. There must be some mistake :ok:

standard

8th Oct 2011, 12:28

Great...........more useless cadets

Really?... I've flown with plenty of useless former GA and Military pilots!

2 years my application has been in at Virgin... thousands of hours turbine..... never got a call. Let's just hire cadets instead.

Maybe you are not what they are looking for?

This can't be right. From reading these pages Virgin has been specifically designed to make pilots happy. It's the model to which all currently profitable airlines must aspire. There must be some mistake

When did Virgin return a bigger profit than QF?, (mind you the current QF management is flawed) $550m for a year isn't bad, even with the use of cadets.

I feel for guys just starting out in GA as these cadet courses are starting to block the career progression of GA pilot's. The more cadet's there are in regionals the less jobs available to guys from GA.

There have been cadetships since.. who know's when, and plenty of pilot's still got jobs in Airlines... I feel sorry for people becoming pilots too.... why would you want to invest your life in this crap:).... evidently driving a garbage truck pays more! ($300 per night)

come fly

9th Oct 2011, 00:21

Standard,

Your comments sound like a typical manager who only looks at the dollar sign. How you can say a cadet would be a better pilot than someone with experience is beyond me. There may be those strugglers out there that can't fly and maybe some naturally talented pilots who don't need experience, but the majority of cadets are sh#t. Just ask any real Captain. There are so many things you can't teach with flying, and it's only the times when you push the limits is when you learn different aerodynamic situations. You can't really push the limits with krusty old captain like you in the left hand seat of a jet, and the auto-pilot will fail on you one day.

Flooding the market with cadets to cope with a pilot shortage is not the answer. Treating poeple right to attract the right people is the answer and keep your experienced pilots is the only answer....

GAFA

9th Oct 2011, 01:08

Virgin will still have a need for large number of pilots from GA, MIL and Regional. Company is saying only a small number of cadets will be employed each year. They will not put cadets into the RH of any jets until they reach an appropriate experience level.

Regarding the Skywest Captains seeing the cadet FO move over to Virgin, well if they had of been smart and allowed the Virgin Australia pilots who wanted to go over to the ATR via the EOI, then a door would have opened. Now the door is closed and there will be no short cut for them.

Stiff Under Carriage

9th Oct 2011, 01:13

come fly

How you can say a cadet would be a better pilot than someone with experience is beyond me.

That's NOT what standard said, he said,

I've flown with plenty of useless former GA and Military pilots!

And he is right, there are plenty of them out there and I have seen my fair share, so much so, I would much rather a welltrained cadet in the right seat of my aircraft, than a GA pilot that slipped through the cracks. However, I have seen my fair share of the reverse situation. In the end if you are right for the job then it does not matter if you were a cadet or you came from GA.

I have examples of such if you care to know, but I won't put them here incase they are identified or i get identified. It would defeat the purpose of an alias.

XRF100

9th Oct 2011, 02:34

GAFA, I am a Skywest pilot and we have had no say in the Virgin ATR project, it was just foistered upon us from above.
Due to the way our industrial agreement is written our senior mangement had no choice but to put the ATR pilots on the seniority list, all ATR positions were advertised internally however few guys took up the offer as most of us want to be domiciled in Perth (thats why we joined Skywest) and all new pilots have gone to the bottom of the seniority list based on date of employment.
We as a pilot body had no say in the "EOI" that you mention, in fact its the first that I have heard of it. I doubt the majority of SWA guys currently in the company would have had any problem with it as it does not affect them in any way, those who want to work for Virgin have left and gone already, the rest of us are happy were we are (well as happy as a pilot can be!)
As to how the cadetship would work I dont know as none of the line pilots have been involved or had any input.

come fly

9th Oct 2011, 03:04

The only reason you would prefer a cadet in your right hand seat is because you know he wouldn't ask question about your decisions, because the inexperienced cadet wouldn't know any better, because he hasn't learnt anything for himself. You can't under estimate the value of gaining experience in GA. Gaining the knowledge to think outside the box when it's needed....

flyingfox

9th Oct 2011, 03:38

Skywest Seniority. Ha Ha!! I was one of the pilots drop kicked out of Skywest years ago by a popular vote of those currently at the top of that list. Never met a more 'self serving' group of individuals in my life. The Ansett brown noses still rule at this illustrious organisation!

GAFA

9th Oct 2011, 03:40

XRF100,

Feedback we've had is those employed directly onto the ATR from outside Skywest didn't want the Virgin Australia pilots. Even though Skywest were advertising for positions (C & T, Capts etc) every few weeks. The current Skywest agreement does allow for DEC and this has happened on the ATR on the East Coast.

Virgin Australia sent an EOI at the same time Skywest was advertising, asking for interest from pilots for C & T and Training positions. The plan was for these pilots to be employed under Skywest EBA for 2 years and take LWOP from Virgin Australia. Virgin received around 30 EOI from both Capts and FO's with many of these pilots holding previous Check and Training experience. In the end none were offered positions.

Many of those pilots employed onto the ATR had missed out on Virgin previously and may see this has a back door into Virgin. Skywest not taking any pilots from Virgin has not gone down to well with some of the pilot group.

Plus when a Virgin Australia 737 is following ATR and told by they are number 2 to the ATR and the 737 pilot asks "is that one of ours" and before the controller can reply the ATR pilot replies "no it's one of ours" it really does create an "US" and "THEM" culture.

standard

9th Oct 2011, 04:53

Come fly, as was already pointed out you didn't read my comment, perhaps literacy is not something taught in GA?

There may be those strugglers out there that can't fly and maybe some naturally talented pilots who don't need experience, but the majority of cadets are sh#t. Just ask any real Captain.

So who is that your are attacking now?, the strugglers or the cadets?

I take it that as a REAL Captain you have flown with varying generations of Cadets, as both a first officer and a captain? I truly doubt it so i suggest you stick to what you know rather than making uneducated, bullsh&t statements.

The Bunglerat

9th Oct 2011, 05:55

So the cadet bashers crawl out from under their rocks. Again. Most of the time I try to keep my PPRuNe comments as professional as possible, but in this instance: Many of you make it quite clear that you are ignorant, misinformed (insert derogatory remark here).

As has already been said (or implied), there are no more good or bad cadets than there are good or bad GA pilots, or good & bad military pilots. For all the screening & various filters employed in the selection process, it has to be acknowledged that the occasional misfit will always slip through. I know, because in a former life I used to train QF cadets myself.

Nevertheless many of them impressed the hell out of me. For the most part they were mature, hard-working individuals with a great attitude, & very conscious of the "opportunity" they had been given. Whilst lacking in total flying experience, they still demonstrated all the necessary problem-solving & decision-making skills that left me in no doubt that many of them would go on to make excellent crew members & future pilots in command.

Whilst the specifics of the cadetship are still to be finalised, I would guess that Virgin's attitude towards the programme will be very much in line with the recent recommendations from the senate inquiry into pilot training & aviation safety. I don't think you will be seeing any graduates going straight into the front seat of a jet, E-Jet or otherwise. More than likely (as already mentioned elsewhere on this thread), they will be placed into the right-hand seat of an ATR - or the jump seat of a 777.

Rest assured, however, that whilst Virgin WILL continue to recruit from GA, regionals & the military, future pilot requirements dictate that a cadet programme will be part of the mix. Deal with it.

BombsGone

9th Oct 2011, 06:16

The Bunglerat,
Nice to see some balance here. The truly scary cadetships are the ones where willingness to pay is more important than ability, minimum training is the benchmark, and they go on to fly airbuses on autopilot straight off course. I would rather a good cadet than the bottom applicant from GA next to me. However I would expect a reasonable body of experience in hand flying somewhere before they get to the auto pilot heavy world of jet RPT.

Several years ago, a younger me, mouthed off about Qantas cadets to an ex mil friend in Q. He set me straight on the quality of the majority of cadets he had flown with, having high praise for one in particular. On the other hand AF447 shows what happens to pilots who have minimal hand flying before they transition to the airbus.

XRF100

9th Oct 2011, 07:50

Flyingfox,

My understanding is that the event that you refered to occurred back in 1994, I have just had a look at the current seniority list and of the 120+ pilots on the books at the moment there are only six, I repeat, six current pilots who were employed prior to late 1995. I in no way condone their actions and indeed I feel your pain however I feel that it is unjust to taint the whole Skywest pilot group with the actions of a few.Those few involved no longer hold any positions of responsibility within the company.

GAFA,
Im sorry to hear that you guys feel that way. To the best of my knowledge the current T&Cs on the ATR are either Perth based Skywest guys seconded to the ATR operation to help with transition of Skywest SOPs etc.. or experienced ATR guys and all the required postions were filled ie no requirement for Virgin guys, no malice intended.
As for the "no its one of ours" comment that is a shame and I hope it does not reflect the attitude of the skywest group over there as we all have enough problems with the "divide and conquer" tactics of aviation management in general without contributing to it from within.

cheers

GAFA

9th Oct 2011, 08:30

XR,

If all the C & T positions were filled from pilots from the west and experienced ATR pilots, then why did Skywest advertise 4 weeks ago in the Australian for these positions. Those who applied for the EOI include Ejet captains with at least one being a training Capt on it. The Ejet and the ATR 72-600 have a very similar cockpit and although Skywest may have got experienced ATR pilots I bet none of them have operated a fully integrated/advanced flight deck like the -600 and Ejet.

What about the talk CASA could make the -600 a different endorsement to the -500? If that happens then having experienced ATR pilots doesn't mean much.

Also when we hear Skywest ATR pilots saying "if they (Virgin) come over here for a command, then we want a command at Virgin" doesn't help.

KRUSTY 34

9th Oct 2011, 10:03

Can anyone explain to me why an E-Jet captain would want to go over to a turbo-prop!? :confused:

Stiff Under Carriage

9th Oct 2011, 10:14

Thank you for backing up my comments about cadet vs GA guys,

Standard, The Bunglerat and BombsGone.

It is very true.

Just wondering Come Fly, at 26yo are you are REAL Captain?

GAFA

9th Oct 2011, 11:03

Krusty,

Lifestyle, some of those who applied have been commuting for 2-3 years. The dollars that Skywest are paying for training captains is equal to what these captains earn when commuting costs are considered. If they were given check positions they would be ahead.

OhForSure

9th Oct 2011, 12:38

The ignorance from some of the posters on this forum never ceases to amaze me.

In my company there is a vast mix of former GA, military and cadet pilots... with a few exceptions noted, you ask any captain and they will tell you that the cadets are, on average, at the VERY least equal in ability to most from GA. I've been told by some check captains that the sim and check results speak for themselves.

Reality is that you're either naturally good at this and/or you're trainable, or you're not, regardless of what stream you come in via. We shouldn't be pigeon holing individuals ability based on what background they have. As has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I have it on very, very good authority that most of the QF cadets are excellent operators.

I do however take issue with cadet programs that are used to put downward pressure on employment conditions... ie employing under different contracts. Now THAT is a problem.

KRUSTY 34

9th Oct 2011, 13:13

That's been my experience re: cadets OFS. The pro's and Cons are almost limitless, but I for one have had very few negative results, up and above what I find in most newcomers, as we all once were.

But the money making exploitive schemes? Blood boiling stuff.

Thanks for the clarification GAFA. I guess these guys will have to continue commuting for the forseable future. Hopefully the base of their choice will eventually come up!

Muff Hunter

9th Oct 2011, 22:21

A little bit of gold from a JQ cadet...............

In my experience, experience is counts for nothing!!

8aitch8

9th Oct 2011, 22:30

Gaffa,

I do not understand, if these E jet pilots want to work for Sky west what is preventing them?

come fly

9th Oct 2011, 22:31

we will just wait for a sky full of captains who were cadets and watch the accidents rise....maybe QF will lose that illusive hull....

rmcdonal

9th Oct 2011, 22:40

maybe QF will lose that illusive hull.... I doubt it, by the time a Q Cadet finds himself in the left seat of a Jet he would have been in the air around 10-15 years, just ask Keg.
The issue would be if they are short cut into the left seat with just the minimums, but the same would apply with any pilot. If you see a 1501hr Capt. then you should be worried.

The Bunglerat

10th Oct 2011, 01:47

illusive

From memory, at least every cadet I trained had a grasp of correct spelling, grammar & general use of the English language, so on that point alone they're already more qualified than you, Come Fly. :ugh:

XRF100

10th Oct 2011, 02:14

GAFA
If all the C & T positions were filled from pilots from the west and experienced ATR pilots, then why did Skywest advertise 4 weeks ago in the Australian for these positions.

Dont know, decisions made by those above my pay grade - maybe they needed ATR guys to fill seats with minimal training ASAP

Those who applied for the EOI include Ejet captains with at least one being a training Capt on it. The Ejet and the ATR 72-600 have a very similar cockpit and although Skywest may have got experienced ATR pilots I bet none of them have operated a fully integrated/advanced flight deck like the -600 and Ejet.

You maybe right I guess they will worry about that once AOC has been obtained and the 600s are in country - first things first.

What about the talk CASA could make the -600 a different endorsement to the -500? If that happens then having experienced ATR pilots doesn't mean much.
As Above.

Also when we hear Skywest ATR pilots saying "if they (Virgin) come over here for a command, then we want a command at Virgin" doesn't help.

Next time you see a Skywest pilot, invite them out for a beer, have a chat there is always two sides to every story, it maybe have been a throw away line taken out of context, a misquote that you have heard third hand or simply just a misunderstanding. As I said yesterday "we all have enough problems with the "divide and conquer" tactics of aviation management in general without contributing to it from within."

Hope you have had a good day.
Cheers

8aitch8

10th Oct 2011, 02:23

Come fly

The fact is that the skies of Europe are full of Captains who came from Cadets.

You my friend are wrong in so many ways.

34R

10th Oct 2011, 02:46

I know quite a few QF cadets, over a range of ranks and I am proud to call some of them friends, and more than happy to operate with them.
You would hope that the selection process reflects the companies attitude to safety and performance, and that those with the aptitude for this sort of thing are recognised.

Most of the ire that cadets draw seems to come from the notion that they ,(or dad) bought their way into the company, whilst others had to endure third world conditions in some outback post, fighting for everything they got and worked their way to their goal. Big deal! Can we use that same logic and suggest those presently at Virgin that are there as a result of a 'blue star' or knowing the right bloke can be lumped into the same basket? And let's be honest, there are quite a few of those! Of course not.

At the end of the day, if something goes bang I really don't think years spent in the bush in a 210 are going to better equip you to handle the situation. An understanding that you don't know everything, a willingness to always want to improve, a professionalism to know your stuff and an attitude to embrace working with others, I believe, will.

My years in GA did teach me a great deal, but probably more about myself. I feel lucky for that opportunity and I'm glad I went down that path. But I'm afraid it all counts for nil if you aren't willing to do the things that are required to be an accountable pilot.

Stiff Under Carriage

10th Oct 2011, 03:06

Well said 34R.

Still waiting for your response come fly.

Chadzat

10th Oct 2011, 07:05

More than likely (as already mentioned elsewhere on this thread), they will be placed into the right-hand seat of an ATR - or the jump seat of a 777.

What a fantastic idea that is (NOT). Instead of putting them in a low-risk environment like a highly-automated aircraft that more often than not is operating 100% in controlled airspace with the option of an ILS or VOR/DME at worst at each port. No lets put them in a high workload, short sector, minimal automation environment to "earn their stripes". The ATR has no auto throttle, no VNAV and will operate to ports with only an NDB with no distance information.

If you reckon an (albeit highly trained) cadet with 250 hours is better than a 3000 hr GA pilot then you ARE deluded.

Forget the useless generalisations about Qantas cadets and ex-mil cadets. The comparison HERE is between a 250 hour cadet that has been trained to operate an ATR vs a 2500hr (average skywest new employee) GA pilot who has ALSO been trained to operate an ATR.

Both 'candidates' will have received CRM training, ATR endorsement training, ATR Line Training. Yet 1 candidate has 2250hrs MORE hours of making radio calls, manipulating an aircraft in a variety of conditions, making decisions and even just knowing when it just "doesnt feel right".

Its either money making exercise or its being seeen to be "doing the right thing in the industry".

simple as that

The Bunglerat

10th Oct 2011, 07:41

Instead of putting them in a low-risk environment like a highly-automated aircraft that more often than not is operating 100% in controlled airspace with the option of an ILS or VOR/DME at worst at each port. No lets put them in a high workload, short sector, minimal automation environment to "earn their stripes". The ATR has no auto throttle, no VNAV and will operate to ports with only an NDB with no distance information.

Yes, Chadzat. EXACTLY. It's why Australian airline cadets are generally of a much higher standard than their counterparts in Europe who went straight to that highly automated jet. And as for delusional tendencies, I don't think a low-time cadet is better than a 3,000 hr GA bitchin' rockstar from the Top End, but if the training is of a high enough standard (which was certainly what I evidenced from training cadets myself a number of years ago), I would say they are certainly equal.

come fly

10th Oct 2011, 08:26

Chadzat

10th Oct 2011, 09:23

I agree with your assertion Bunglerat, but do you think its fair on the line captains of (in this instance) an ATR that they should have to operate with these cadets while they get their "higher standard" before you see them in your 737?

They have to learn from SOMEWHERE. No one magically acquires experience. The training standard and regime should be the same whether they are cadet or come from GA. A standard is a standard.

pull-up-terrain

10th Oct 2011, 09:39

Chadzat has the right idea...there is definately a place for cadets in the industry, but not to replace the guys with experience. To generalise cadets as better, more professional pilots is a disgrace. Building your hours up on a clapped out 210 teaches you to be calm when sh#t hits the fan, cause it does, and when something goes wrong, which isn't a typical failure, I know who I would won't in the right hand seat next to me...
Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt the FO on last years A380 incident a QF cadet...

But isnt that the point of all the aptitude tests, co-ordination tests, etc they do at interviews is to work out which candidates naturally have those "abilities". Lets say at the interview for the QF cadetship and there was 2500 applications for 20 spots. The 20 that get in for a start, would be the best of the best to make it so far with the amount of tests they do to filter out the "wrong" applicants. They are most likely switched on and are fast learners, have good leadership/teamworking skills, fairly motivated, most likely particapated in Airforce Cadets/aviation related activities (which gives them valuable skills) that get in to cadetships like these. I agree that they should be employing GA people over cadets (in Australia). But I dont think Cadet pilots arent as bad as what some people in this thread make them out to be.

psycho joe

10th Oct 2011, 10:03

Building your hours up on a clapped out 210 teaches you to be calm when sh#t hits the fan, cause it does, and when something goes wrong, which isn't a typical failure, I know who I would won't in the right hand seat next to me.

Well said come fly.

That's exactly who I want next to me as well; Someone with day VFR Single Engine Cessna time. That's money can't buy experience right there. In fact when something goes wrong, the first thing that I want to hear is "it's ok, I once flew a Single Engine Cessna". I'd be instantly relieved because i'd automatically know that they would be incredibly calm. I simply can't understand how anyone could be qualified on a jet without having had Single engine Cessna time. In fact you should travel around as a passenger just in case one of the flight crew go incapacitated and only a person with single engine Cessna time can save the day. What, with your incredible calmness that only comes from flying a single engine Cessna.

:D

Stiff Under Carriage

10th Oct 2011, 10:30

That's exactly who I want next to me as well; Someone with day VFR Single Engine Cessna time. That's money can't buy experience right there. In fact when something goes wrong, the first thing that I want to hear is "it's ok, I once flew a Single Engine Cessna". I'd be instantly relieved because i'd automatically know that they would be incredibly calm. I simply can't understand how anyone could be qualified on a jet without having had Single engine Cessna time. In fact you should travel around as a passenger just in case one of the flight crew go incapacitated and only a person with single engine Cessna time can save the day. What, with your incredible calmness that only comes from flying a single engine Cessna.

:D:D:D:D:D

Gold psycho. Couldn't have said it better myself! Exactly what I was thinking.

Come fly :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Bear Grylls

10th Oct 2011, 10:44

Touche psycho, touche.

mcgrath50

10th Oct 2011, 10:44

Would a Piper be ok, or are they too simple without electric flaps?

psycho joe

10th Oct 2011, 11:00

McGrath, there can be no doubt about quality GA time in a Piper, but unless you've had an electric flap failure, followed by an emergency flap-less landing at 75kts, then you simply never will posses the steely resolve required of today's airline pilot. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. :(

Fuel-Off

10th Oct 2011, 13:01

So where does this leave the Lads and Ladettes who wish to join Virgin Australia Mainline (?) from other regional operators (Rex, Skippers, QLink etc?). No more direct entry?

Fuel-Off :ok:

sheppey

10th Oct 2011, 13:44

Makes you wonder why the operators of Corporate Global Express and similar highly sophisticated long range VIP jets don't learn from the airline trends, and take in cadet F/O's. It would be cheaper than hiring experienced captains which they do at present. Seems strange that actual flying experience is highly valued by these operators, but sneered at by the airlines with bigger jets and lots more passengers..

eocvictim

10th Oct 2011, 15:39

Well said come fly.

That's exactly who I want next to me as well; Someone with day VFR Single Engine Cessna time. That's money can't buy experience right there. In fact when something goes wrong, the first thing that I want to hear is "it's ok, I once flew a Single Engine Cessna". I'd be instantly relieved because i'd automatically know that they would be incredibly calm. I simply can't understand how anyone could be qualified on a jet without having had Single engine Cessna time. In fact you should travel around as a passenger just in case one of the flight crew go incapacitated and only a person with single engine Cessna time can save the day. What, with your incredible calmness that only comes from flying a single engine Cessna.

As aposed to a cadet that's only ever flown a 172 with someone holding their hand? :rolleyes:

I just don't get this extreme example, who goes from flying a C210 to an A320 anyway? Is that like how Webber went from a peddle car to a F1?

The funniest part about cadet pilots is that they don't reach the insurance requirements to hire most light twins; I'm sure they think that it's unjustified but people who are better at rubix cubes than them think otherwise.

The Green Machine

10th Oct 2011, 15:59

Never really understood the need for cadetships in Aus, giving the abundant availability of pilot. But the Cadets I fly with in CX are absolutely top notch. If there put through an independent selection process(NO nepotism), and giving high quality, full time, intense training, you get a product second to none. But is this necessary in Australia???? I really dont think so

desmotronic

10th Oct 2011, 20:45

I've flown with plenty of useless former GA and Military pilots!

Standard,
If you are a 'real' qantas captain then you dont seem to think much of your direct entry colleagues. Perhaps you might explain how the cadet selection process is better than the direct entry process?

I do however take issue with cadet programs that are used to put downward pressure on employment conditions

Ohforsure,
That would be all of them with the exception of Qantas where an extended period as SO is required.

Come fly

The fact is that the skies of Europe are full of Captains who came from Cadets.

You my friend are wrong in so many ways.

8aitch8,
The fact is in USA you must have 1500 hours before you set foot in the cockpit, so what is your point? We should go for the lower standard as in Europe or the higher standard as in USA?

Would any sychophants on this thread care to discuss the senate inquiry in particular recommendation #1?

Bottom line i dont want my family flying with the 18 yo 200hr zero to hero buy a job brigade. Thanks but no thanks. Frankly if the public really understood what was going on they would freak.

jazzy

10th Oct 2011, 21:22

I can't find any link to any cadet program between virgin and skywest.....
so if someone has a link to prove it, then please share with us all.

ad-astra

10th Oct 2011, 21:55

Ok this whole thread is about HOSS getting his name up in lights and being the "first" poster to 'announce' the Vigin Australia Cadet Scheme.

The truth is all that has been announced internally is a request to providers for the service.

Thats it!

When something more substantial is available I am sure it will be up in lights for all to argue over.

Move along nothing else to see here

GAFA

10th Oct 2011, 21:57

There was an add in the Australian a few weeks calling for training providers for a cadet program run by Virgin Australia and Skywest.

If you watched the senate inquiry, virgin did say the plan to start a cadet program in 2012.

Cadets will only make up a small amount of pilot numbers, so they will still recruit from the regionals etc.

toolish

10th Oct 2011, 23:12

The problem is the different type of cadet systems.

QF cadet system- good C&T system, time spent in the third seat, many sims before moving to a window seat. This gets the tick of approval but those who come from GA will always talk about the family links.

Virgin system - Ok to go onto the ATR before the jet but you would like to think they would use an "advanced cadet" system, but hang on isn't that just someone out of GA anyway. There is no place for a 250hr pilot in the ATR.
(I have flown this type of operation as a captain and somehow managed to survive but I would no wish this onto the traveling public.)

J*- What a joke. This is where a lot of us have problems with the cadet program
- If you have the money, you have the the job.
- under resourced company at ALL levels.
- overloaded C&T system, perhaps relatively inexperienced.
- a cadet program that wont be allowed to fail, due senate enquiry statements, which leads to a so called JUST culture, where the captain will be hung out to dry.

So if we are going to keep going around in circles on this please explain which type of "cadet system" you think is so brilliant.

Note the reference to the system not the individual.

The Bunglerat

11th Oct 2011, 00:20

Note the reference to the system not the individual.

Completely agree.

aviationboy

11th Oct 2011, 09:50

I don't have a problem with cadets, they are fine. In fact I have flown with many cadets (even as captains), and generally they have been very good. They usually do 5-6 years in the right seat before upgrading anyway, which gives plenty of experience. I'd be more worried about instructors who flogged a 152 in the circuit for 1500 hours then joins a regional and is a captain after 12 months. This IS happening :yuk:

I also don't have a problem with cadet programs in general, however I DO have a problem with airlines hiring cadets over qualified regional and GA pilots especially when there are a crapload of them sitting around who would kill to fly a jet. I'm looking at you, Jetstar :ugh:

tarmac12

12th Oct 2011, 12:00

As was mentioned in a earlier post, haven't Virgin simply sent out a letter to training providers asking them to do a proposal and costing for this Cadet Scheme? I remeber Tiger Australia sent one of those out recently as well.

I know Virgin and Tiger are a world apart but things happen and plans can get scrapped quicker than they are thought up. I would like to say at the earliest this scheme would be 12 to 18 months away at best. Why don't we all sit back and see what the fine print is (if it ever gets off the ground) and then we can all sling mud at each other armed with facts as opposed to speculation.

Lastly, while FNQ, NT and Northern WA continue to have people living there we will continue to have GA. I back this up by the fact that I had a tough time finding a park on the GA apron at Cairns 2 weeks ago.

rodrigues

13th Oct 2011, 12:02

Interesting to see if it eventuates to be exclusively ab-initio program or is open to those with ATPL's & a few hours

VIMD

2nd Dec 2011, 00:59

Interesting discussion going on over the last few pages. It seems that once again there are those out to bag the cadets at every opportunity they get. I agree with the comments that you get equally bad pilots from GA/Mil/cadets, and from all three you also get excellent pilots.

Now for a very big generalisation, and it doesn't apply in all cases. My experience in training candidates is that mostly the guys from a cadet background are willing to admit their lack of experience, and want to make up for it by absorbing information like sponges, trying to improve their knowledge and understanding of aviation. They are for the most part very hard working. The average GA (and even ex-regional airline) pilot that comes through the training programme has a bit of a chip on their shoulder. Some have 2-, 3-, 4000, sometimes 5000 hours and lacks basic knowledge in aviation. It makes teaching of more advanced theory concepts fairly difficult, which most ex-cadets seem to not struggle with too much.

MACH082

2nd Dec 2011, 01:16

Advanced concepts? :D

Yep, press this button and it does this, press this button and it does that. Don't push that button though. Why? Just don't push it :hmm:

The hardest endorsements I ever completed were turboprop stuff. Jets and their endorsements are designed for the lowest common denominator who fly them.

Yep pretty advanced stuff.

The hardest flying is single pilot IFR in remote locations. This is what the cadets lack.

I'd consider the right decision making ability an advanced concept :ok: This requires experience.

I fly with cadets. Some have great SOPs, some have great knowledge, some have great flying ability, but none have all 3. Generally though they are all keen, just like any other Pilot I have flown with.

Gligg

4th Dec 2011, 09:21

Regardless of whether an experienced GA guy is better than a cadet or vice versa, the people making the decisions couldn't care less. Flight crews are a figure in the expense column, the name of the game is to lower that figure.

KRUSTY 34

4th Dec 2011, 09:26

Exactly!

And what better way to achieve that than with a Cadetship.:ok:

rmcdonal

4th Dec 2011, 21:01

Some have 2-, 3-, 4000, sometimes 5000 hours and lacks basic knowledge in aviation.
I would suggest that rather than not knowing it they have simply forgotten it over the last 10 or so years since they did their last CPL/ ATPL exams. Where as a cadet is straight out of flying school with all that info still fresh in their heads. You would probably also find that a 5000hr regional or GA pilot hasn't had to sit down and do any serious study for several years and so they take a bit longer to get into study mode than say a Cadet who has just done 18months or so of intense study and training.

DeltaT

13th Dec 2011, 10:15

Howcome all jobs have been removed or closed on the Virgin Recruitment bfound website?

Stiff Under Carriage

13th Dec 2011, 22:17

DeltaT, Virgin have changed their recruitment website. It is no longer "bfound".

It is now on their main site.

c173

23rd Dec 2011, 07:35

cadetship is in very early stages still over a year away

edit: heard from a c&t captain

Chadzat

27th Dec 2011, 12:20

Going through G.A. allows you to pick up a lot of sources in the industry that give you quite a bit of information about different 'goings-on'.

You should try it! :ok:

unseen

27th Dec 2011, 12:39

When is a cadet no longer a cadet?

When is a GA driver no longer a GA driver?

When is a RAAFie no longer one?

Captain Biggles84

30th Jan 2012, 22:21

Virgin Australia Pilot Cadet Program - News - Flightdeck Consulting Airline Interview Specialists (http://www.flightdeckconsulting.com/blog/virgin-australia-cadet-program-2012/)

Just found this on the web. Def looks like they are trying to follow Qantas cadet programs wonder how much cash newbies will have to cough up?? At least there not straight onto the E-Jet or 737. But still not a fan!!

Anyone got any inside info on possible plans this year for VA. Have heard many mixed reviews. i.e. most recruiting will be onto E-Jet as lots transferring onto 737.. Have heard opposite of that that there plenty of room for 737 slots in Syd/Mel. Also hear the number of QF resumes hitting the pile is quite large. This would surely make the odds a bit tougher. :eek:

bangbounceboeing

31st Jan 2012, 01:43

Guess that will depend upon additional aircraft joining the fleet. I think there is only 2 or 3 A330's slated to join the fleet this year.

truss20

31st Jan 2012, 01:43

With the cadets who complete the course being offered a position with Skywest, this would mean the cadet needs to live in WA. Does anyone know if Virgin will offer allowances for accomodation for people who don't reside there, or would they just have to tough it out for 2 years?

GAFA

31st Jan 2012, 01:54

Truss,

Do some research. The Skywest ATR's operated for Virgin are all based on the East Coast (BN and CB) so your base would be one of them.

There is no way Virgin will pay an allowance or accomodation for you, that don't do it for the 20% of pilots of the current pilots who commute, so there is no chance cadets will get it.

Dragun

31st Jan 2012, 02:59

...a LOT of research. Unfortunately you're sorely mistaken if you think an airline (at least in this country) is going to pay you extra or your relocation costs for not being in a base that you want. Allowances are paid for overnighting away from home base . If you were to be based in Perth, then that's your base = no allowances.

It doesn't matter anyway because the ATRs operated by Skywest for Virgin are all based on the east coast as GAFA said. At this stage...

You should try for the Cathay cadetship though, apparently the pay and conditions are phenomenal. :ok:

BoundaryLayer

31st Jan 2012, 03:38

From the Flight Deck Consulting link a few posts ago..

"Successful candidates, upon completion of their course will be offered First Officer positions on the ATR 72 with partner airline Skywest. Following a two year internship with Skywest it is expected the cadets will move to the companies fleet of 777-300ER as Cruise First Officers."

IF this is how it eventuates, the good thing here is the opportunity for progression (something others don't seem to offer), but looks like 4-5 years of fairly ordinary income. Not bad though if you are young and single.

And as for Cathay, there is a very interesting thread about life as an SO on Fragrant Harbour Wannabes - worth a read.

Cost Index

31st Jan 2012, 18:10

That seems a bit backwards doesn't it? The right hand seat of an ATR in heavy icing conditions and multiple sectors is far harder and requires a lot more for a newbie than being a second officer in the cruise of a jet. Plus the ATR Captain would have a high workload as well. Jet first then turboprop.

The Bunglerat

31st Jan 2012, 21:05

That seems a bit backwards doesn't it?

Maybe, but it's the way of the world: start small & step up by increments. The statement, "jets are easier to fly than props," may be true (sort of), but that kind of attitude is fraught with danger. Having multiple levels of automation at your fingertips in a jet is very helpful, as opposed to man-handling a steam-driven aeroplane with props (not that I'm specifically accusing the ATR of being steam-driven). Flying from ILS to ILS under the umbrella of constant ATC monitoring is certainly easier than ducking & weaving around traffic & weather OCTA & at CTAFs. But what about the fact that things are happening a whole lot faster in just about every phase of flight? What about energy management? What about the fact that it's a lot easier to slow a prop from 250kts inside the terminal area than a heavy jet? What about when you've got your profile looking just right, & all of a sudden ATC reduce your track miles to tighten up the sequence, & suddenly you're scrambling to get it under control?

Jets may be easier to fly than props, so long as it's under optimum conditions. But the increased levels of automation can be just as much a trap as a help (if you don't have a solid understanding of the numerous modes of operation & how they interact), & with regard to the other stuff, as soon as ATC start dicking you around & messing up your game plan, props start looking a whole lot easier to manage.

Whilst I have no problem with cadets, I would not want to see one thrown into any seat of a jet (including the jumpseat) without first having gained some consolidation experience in props. That's just the way it is.

neville_nobody

31st Jan 2012, 21:37

Additional to bunglerats comments is the fact that in australia domestic jets operate into ctafs class G non precision 30m rwy approach aerodrome which just quadrouples the workload. Trying to avoid traffic/airspace whilst getting the approach sorted whilst running two freq is a high workload in a jet. Cadets should be in GA doing charter somewhere but thats another story all together

Anthill

31st Jan 2012, 23:24

is certainly easier than ducking & weaving around traffic & weather OCTA & at CTAFs

On a 6500 Nm sector you will hit wx at some stage of flight. Most long haul flights cross the ITCZ at some stage.

My experience a few years ago with TFC OCTA was that most pilots dealt with TFC threats very badly. Especially in the West.

Very true about Automation and energy management: High levels of automation, paradoxically, often need a high level of operator knowledge and situational awareness to use properly and safely. Unfortunately, automation is often complex to understand and serves to degrade SA :suspect:

Cost Index

31st Jan 2012, 23:27

I agree with the above. Hence why I was saying being a second officer on inter-continental flights in the cruise only is far better. They wont be required to do as much as a Capt or FO at each end of the flight. Works for QF et al. Cheers

The Green Goblin

1st Feb 2012, 01:01

It's exactly what QF did for all those years in their very successful cadetship that generally only the most intelligent guys got into.

They flew a metro or the like with skippers, pearl, Airnorth, macair etc and when they had been there for a couple of years with over 1500TT they were offered a backseat in the 744.

Whilst the flying is more complex in a turboprop due to the nature of the flying, they are easy to slow up and don't have a couple of hundred people plus behind you.

You can do amazing things in a turboprop, 1:1 decents, barbers pole at 5nm and land with a stabilized approach.

You can't do that in a jet!

Dragun

1st Feb 2012, 02:02

I'm betting that within 2-3 more posts this is going to turn into a GA vs. cadetship thread.

Tidbinbilla

1st Feb 2012, 03:15

We'll be watching this thread carefully. Any such posts will be deleted. :)

TID

Chadzat

1st Feb 2012, 05:35

You can do amazing things in a turboprop, 1:1 decents, barbers pole at 5nm and land with a stabilized approach.

None of those things can be done in an ATR however. Its a very different beast to a Dash.

The thing that makes this idea crazy (yes i know qantarse did it before) is that the cadets will be sent to a differnt company for a very short period of time-leading to 'stuff this, ill be on a jet in 2 years time'. Where does that leave the Captains of Skywest who have to fly with this attitude in the RHS?

Hugh Jarse

1st Feb 2012, 06:55

You can do amazing things in a turboprop, 1:1 decents, barbers pole at 5nm and land with a stabilized approach. Let's say VMO is 240kt. Therefore a 1:1 = 4000fpm @ 240kt. Maintain this to 5nm (or 5000ft for a 1:1 profile), and be stable?

Let's say VREF is 120kt. That would require a ROD of 2000fpm. Can't see how one could be stable if flying a constant 1:1 profile.

What turboprop aircraft would that be in? I really would like to know :E

Anthill

1st Feb 2012, 09:26

Dunno about TPs, Huge, but I recon the F28 could just about do that :ok:

7000'/11 DME was ho hum.:E

GAFA

1st Feb 2012, 11:16

There has been talk of having 2 types of cadets. Zero time cadets would go straight to the 777 as CFO's and advanced ( ie already have a CPL or higher) would go to the RH of the ATR for a few years and RH seat of the Ejet/737.

As for the ATR captains, if they want to fly jets for Virgin Australia they will have to apply just like every other pilot. No short cuts for them. They had a chance to open doors last year and they blew it!

j3pipercub

1st Feb 2012, 13:39

As for the ATR captains, if they want to fly jets for Virgin Australia they will have to apply just like every other pilot. No short cuts for them. They had a chance to open doors last year and they blew it!

Awww diddums, fwowing the toys outta the pwam are we? Upset you didn't get to leave those big flight levels to come down and show all the turboprop clowns how skygods do it?

I wasn't aware that the ATR Captains PERSONALLY vetoed any VB pilots moving. Furthermore, I would have put money on those 'doors' being one way, with no progression guaranteed from Skywest to VB.

j3

nt.pilot

23rd Feb 2012, 12:59

Just saw on the Virgin half year report, they are planning to have thier first batch of cadets selected by the end of this financial year! that means they'll be releasing something soon.wohoo!

Biggles266

24th Feb 2012, 06:45

Any idea on what type of cadetship this will be?

I was personally speaking to an employee from one of the training organisations who are fighting for the tender that it was rumored to be an ab-initio cadetship. This organisation at the time was in their 4th round of negotiations with Virgin.

On the other hand I personally spoke to a guy in an australian based aviation consultancy company who said word on the street is its meant to be an advanced cadetship, much like QLinks traineeship.

All rumors though so I guess this post means nothing hahaha.

The Kelpie

24th Feb 2012, 18:08

Biggles

My sources tell me that it is to be an all ab-initio cadet ship initially.

As has been pointed out, Virgin is currently in the process of selecting its training provider with further interviews being held only last week.

First course is programmed to start in the last quarter of 2012.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

Luke T

4th Apr 2012, 12:07

just wondering if anyone has any further information regarding this program? Surely they must be close to announcing specifics?

The Kelpie

4th Apr 2012, 19:26

Very close Luke!!

Watch this space!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

Aimpoint

4th Apr 2012, 23:55

Kelpie - I might be wrong, but you seemed very against the Jetstar cadetship, but seem in favour of the Virgin program. Why?

scam sniffer

5th Apr 2012, 00:21

Aimpoint.
Simple really. One is a pay to fly program based on ability to pay and the other one is a cadetship where selection will be merit based and no upfront cash requirement.
One will be a proper program similar to the old Qantas scheme and the other a rip off, supply of cheap labour, where the biggest chequebook wins.:ugh:

But I'm only guessing and do not profess to be talking for Kelpie.

SS

SHVC

5th Apr 2012, 01:00

Let's hope they don't find a training provider and the whole thing falls over, never thought Virgin would sink to the level of One*. Very disappointing Virgin!

And yes Kelpie why are you for the Virgin cadetship?

porch monkey

5th Apr 2012, 01:26

How about you await the details before you criticise? As sniffer has pointed out, not all cadetships are the same. The details will decide whether there will be support from the rest of us in the industry. Not all cadetships are crap.

scam sniffer

5th Apr 2012, 01:38

My comments above aside. I see little need for a cadet scheme in Australia, due the current supply of qualified hopefuls already out there.

If it is to ensure a supply in any upcoming shortage, after the current supply dwindles, then they are to be encouraged.

SS

neville_nobody

5th Apr 2012, 02:29

Let's hope they don't find a training provider and the whole thing falls over, never thought Virgin would sink to the level of One*. Very disappointing Virgin!

QF have been running a cadetship for over ten years so it's hardly a Jetstar thing. However that has ended badly for those recruited in recent times who have paid $100 000+ for flying training and are now stuck on regional a FO salary with a reasonable amount of debt one would imagine.

Hopefully the Virgin one will provide a chance of career progression rather than being left out in the cold.

Keg

5th Apr 2012, 02:37

QF have been running a cadetship for over ten years so it's hardly a Jetstar thing.

Lol. Closer to 20 years. First course started in early 1990. A hiatus between the end of '92 and about '97 and then it went for about ten years. I think it's in hiatus again. Given the lack of recruiting in mainline I suspect that hiatus will be a long one indeed.

Many of the graduates of those early '90s courses are now 767 and 737 Captains.

Aimpoint

5th Apr 2012, 04:28

I never bashed the cadet scheme, just made an observation. Surely many of the issues brought up in the last 18 months about the limitations of cadetships will still apply to Virgin. And who is not to say this isn't a way to reduce costs either? We don't know all of the details yet. The program could be a very good thing, I'm just looking at it with eyes very wide open and without the borghetti tinted glasses.

Luke T

5th Apr 2012, 12:13

Kelpie, does this mean you have some inside information you are able to share? I have been reading this thread for some time now, and I am very interested to find out more about this program.

Keg

5th Apr 2012, 21:00

Surely many of the issues brought up in the last 18 months about the limitations of cadetships will still apply to Virgin.

They avoid the biggest problem if they put them into the back seat of a 777 for a few years prior to F/O training though.

Aimpoint

5th Apr 2012, 21:58

Agreed Keg. I hope they don't end up in the ATR. Just because it is a turboprop doesn't make it any easier to operate single pilot.

The Kelpie

6th Apr 2012, 05:30

Just for the record I am not entirely "anti-cadet ship". It is very difficult to say they don't work when they have been adopted by airlines across Europe and Asia for many years albeit funded fully by the airline. That being said I have serious reservations whether a pilot with a new CPL and MECIR has the ability to properly support a captain on an aircraft such as the A320 or 737.

My concerns are primarily that cadet ships should not be the only recruitment stream and that they should supplement direct entry rather than replace it. Cadetships should, if used only be awarded to the cream of the applicants as was the QF cadetship once upon a time and their numbers should be highly restricted and their induction highly supervised (eg second officer for 2-3 years prior to a window seat below 10,000)

The other bone I have is the way that airlines, particularly Jetstar have bastardised the model, not only to an applicant pays system placing undue financial pressure on cadets but also by taking on cadets in such large numbers.

The announcement on which flight training provider will be awarded the contract is imminent and i expect that within a week or so the launch of the cadetship will occur and more details of the cadet ship will be released.

This is some of the information I have some of which is already out there:

Initial stages of the selection process are expected to be carried out by the chosen flight training provider with later stages having more VA input.

The selected cadets will not be expected to provide any funding upfront but may be asked to enter into a bonding arrangement.

The cadetship is 100%. Ab-initio with no advanced entry for those with CPL etc. Course duration 18 months. Course includes cpl,MECIR and multi crew course including ATPLs.

Initial course 12 cadets to commence 3rd quarter 2012.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

Luke T

7th Apr 2012, 00:14

Kelpie, do you know any further information regarding the flight training schools? It was stated that VA had narrowed it down to 3, do you know which 3 schools are/were in the running? Or do you know the final selection?

damo1089

10th Apr 2012, 09:25

Wow, sounds like the entirety of the year 12 graduate population is going to apply, especially if no upfront cost is involved. It should will be good because if they only pick 12, there is a good chance that they won't be duds.

PoppaJo

12th Apr 2012, 10:08

First 777 out of the paintshop, looks good.

http://reheatimages.smugmug.com/CivilAviation/All-Civil-Aviation/i-L7GXTwR/0/L/DSC205520120412-L.jpg

zappalin

13th Apr 2012, 03:45

Madre de Dios! What a beauty! Wouldn't mind being at the pointy end of that...

Centaurus

13th Apr 2012, 12:47

That being said I have serious reservations whether a pilot with a new CPL and MECIR has the ability to properly support a captain on an aircraft such as the A320 or 737.

I think the vast majority of current captains would support your view wholeheartedly.

SCpitch

17th Apr 2012, 02:39

Word on the street is that Flight Training Adelaide have submitted the successful tender for the Virgin ab-initio cadetship.

training wheels

17th Apr 2012, 04:32

That being said I have serious reservations whether a pilot with a new CPL and MECIR has the ability to properly support a captain on an aircraft such as the A320 or 737.

If they've completed line training and successfully checked to line, isn't that saying they've reached the required standard to competently operate as a first-officer? Every F/O has got to start from somewhere ..

TheWholeEnchilada

17th Apr 2012, 05:12

If they've completed line training and successfully checked to line, isn't that saying they've reached the required standard to competently operate as a first-officer?
On the day they demonstrated they could fly within the required tolerances. That may be a series of sectors in CAVOK from ILS to ILS, or it may have been something more challenging.

However does that mean they can adequately support a Captain going in to a non-towered aerodrome at night for a non-precision approach with traffic and weather on the minima the next week?

You are correct, everyone does need to start somewhere, but does it really have to be in the RHS of a high capacity RPT aircraft? I suspect that accountants simply point to Europe and the apparent success of cadetships direct to RHS HC-RPT. There is a huge difference - a low vis departure to a CAT III autoland is a procedural flight from the FO as support pilots point of view. It is a series of yes/no decisions and calls that can be learned by rote. It is an entirely different proposition to the complex scenario above. That requires active management of the external world beyond the aircraft by the support pilot & requires judgment & experience in order to provide adequate support for the Captain. Not only is the FO there to provide support - he is also the vital cross check on the Captain. Captains make mistakes too.

Operators that have direct entry cadets that have SO's/ Cruise FO's provide a much better environment. They get to see how to operate multi-crew, the normal flow of the flight and simulator time to practice and make mistakes - mistakes are an integral part of the learning process. At least in this country we have a diverse range of operations to provide an excellent learning environment before stepping up to HC-RPT.

So yes, they may have passed their check ride to the minimum required standard - but is this the way we really want to operate? How are Jetstar going with their cadet program? Are the cadets flying with training Captains for a considerable period of time beyond what could reasonably be expected to make the line standard? If so, there is a reason for that, we have a different operating environment to Europe.

Luke T

17th Apr 2012, 07:36

SCPitch, where did you hear this information??

GAFA

17th Apr 2012, 08:17

No Virgin cadets will be going into the RH seat of the 737,330 or Ejet. Cadets will go CFO on the 777 or RH of the ATR for 2 - 3 years. Cadet numbers per year will only be small ie 10 - 20.

virginexcess

17th Apr 2012, 08:46

You are correct, everyone does need to start somewhere, but does it really have to be in the RHS of a high capacity RPT aircraft? I suspect that accountants simply point to Europe and the apparent success of cadetships direct to RHS HC-RPT. There is a huge difference - a low vis departure to a CAT III autoland is a procedural flight from the FO as support pilots point of view. It is a series of yes/no decisions and calls that can be learned by rote. It is an entirely different proposition to the complex scenario above. That requires active management of the external world beyond the aircraft by the support pilot & requires judgment & experience in order to provide adequate support for the Captain. Not only is the FO there to provide support - he is also the vital cross check on the Captain. Captains make mistakes too.

I gotta take my hat of to you on this one. Anyone who genuinely argues that the Australian RPT environment is more challenging than the European one deserves the Gold Logie for delusion.

Even if you accept the argument that Low Vis ops are not particularly demanding, combine that with Cold Weather Ops (serious cold weather that is) where the rain is just a bit below freezing and you are trying to make a slot time and you are running out of holdover time in an environment where there are more aircraft parked at the terminal than are airborne in all of Australia, all trying to meet their slot times, along with mountains that require 5 figures to describe their height, approaches that go down valleys you would not have imagine even if you had flown in New Guinea, god knows how many languages, ATC talking to pilots in their mother tongue, the list goes on and on.

But hey, we have it challenging here. We have to do approaches into non-controlled airports with anywhere up to 2 or 3 light aircraft in the area, and sometimes it's raining. I can't imagine how those European Captains would cope with such a demanding environment with only a 250 hour cadet with them. Much easier to fly into Salzburg in winter i would think.

The only reason there is a risk here is because we don't have the training system to support low hour Cadets. If this scheme gets any legs, the end product will have had Multi Crew Training and be a far better product (for an airline) than someone who has spent 5 years flying single pilot into Numbulwar.

We need to embrace the future, because the future is low time pilots with Multi Crew Training flying RPT jets. Get on the train or get left behind.

Keg

17th Apr 2012, 09:19

If this scheme gets any legs, the end product will have had Multi Crew Training and be a far better product (for an airline) than someone who has spent 5 years flying single pilot into Numbulwar.

The 'product' hasn't changed that much in the last 20 years. Being a graduate of that 'product' I can tell you from first hand experience that it is NOT enough to prepare you for the RHS of a RPT jet in Australian airspace under the normal airline training regimes. The 'multi crew' stuff in an artificial environment of a Level 4 (D, whatever) sim isn't going to adequately prepare people for the vagaries of the job.

Were the airline training regimes to change significantly from what they are now THEN they may be acceptable but you're talking about an active on the job training and active mentoring/ feedback system. Something well beyond what Qantas currently has and what my friends with DJ and J* say they have.

As for comparisons with Europe, they may be different but each environment carriers different risks. Arguments about which is 'harder' are ignorant as to the inherent risks in both environment. Just because European operators cope with inexperienced people in the RHS of airliners, doesn't mean it's the right thing for Australian conditions. We are different and require different emphasis in our training. Those that claim Europe as being 'harder' than Australia and therefore that 200 hour pilots in the RHS are acceptable in Australia are demonstrating their ignorance of those differences.

virginexcess

17th Apr 2012, 09:54

Mostly good points and a reasonable response.

I never advocated that Europe is harder. My point is that in no way is it possible to argue that Australia is more difficult, and 250 hr cadets are being successfully managed in Europe.

Don't worry, Qantas is not on its own. Virgin are having difficulty managing experienced pilots from the back seat of a 777 to a front seat of a 737. This is not a reflection on the pilots, but more a reflection on the airline and its culture.

Our system has been built on the back of the GA principle. Our airlines do very little training, mostly checking. If the airlines genuinely think they can manage Cadets into their systems, then they need to change from big C to big T.

I still maintain that the end product of a good Cadet scheme will be superior to a GA pilot as far as compatibility with an airline. What is in question is the airlines ability to take those kids and develop them into airline pilots. In the current airline environment GA pilots have the upper hand in that area because they have had years of experience learning how to survive in the dog eat dog environment of Australian Aviation. In that regard Cadets will be lambs to the slaughter unless the airline airline implements Cadet specific development programs.

Kenny

17th Apr 2012, 10:20

Virgin,

Considering the new CP was also the Head of Training at United, a company that has an infinitely more "User Friendly" training culture, I'd bet my bottom dollar that the emphasis on checking rather than training, may very well change.

Luke T

23rd Apr 2012, 02:15

The end of April is rapidly approaching.. Has anyone heard any further developments? Expected announcement dates etc?

porch monkey

23rd Apr 2012, 23:15

I've been in VA for 5 years. My experience has been plenty of T and just the required C. Overall, has always been a good experience. Maybe the other base is different........

Ryancampbell13

24th Apr 2012, 06:26

Any news of opportunities for the advanced entry as opposed to ab-initio? Or are we dreaming?

Ryan

SilverSleuth

24th Apr 2012, 06:30

Any news of opportunities for the advanced entry as opposed to ab-initio? Or are we dreaming?

Your dreaming! it will be ab-initio only.

j3pipercub

24th Apr 2012, 07:26

From what I understand, there are a great deal of non Tech crew Virgin employees who are very interested in the Cadetship. It stands to reason that the company would give preference to those who are a known quantity.

j3

Flingwing47

24th Apr 2012, 08:47

I have held back and enjoyed watching the debate for quite some time :-
"can a cadet pilot from a production line flying school be a help or a hindrance when released to the line as an FO?"

Having just retired after flying with just such low time pilots for the past 12 years please allow me to comment.
Flying has many challenges - and we all discover new ones every day.
My last job was flying 4 sectors a day/night RPT in a 180 pax jet in the middle east with normally 12 hour - 14 hour duty periods, into 26 local and 15 regional airports with brand new national FO's.
Fourteen of those airports were uncontrolled OCTA.
Civilian traffic was light but there were always military transports and helos to make things interesting.
The cadets, who mostly paid for their own pilot training up to FAA CPL in the US were from a varied background - with different levels of enthusiasm for the profession of pilot and technical backgrounds.English was their second, third or fourth language.

On a good day most of these new guys did an adequate job, and most were eager to expand their knowledge base. But, as would be expected, when something unusual happened - all bets were off !! It often became single pilot IFR for a few moments while things settled down.
It was a steep learning curve for them but most adapted well.
And no, we didn't have snow/sleet - but we did have severe dust storms and runways contaminated by blowing sand !! GPS approaches were available at some of the more remote stations and were a great help.

Generally after a few months and several hundred hours these new cadets became fully fledged FOs; after 1000 hours they moved up to 747, MD11 or 777.

It was not ideal to have such low time co-pilots but just as other countries have learnt to deal with this new career path, so I fear must Australian aviation adapt. And at least the Multi Crew Licence will give the new cadets here a better understanding of what is required of them on the line

happy landings !!

virginexcess

24th Apr 2012, 11:08

From what i hear RT is going to use it to further his own agenda!

GAFA

24th Apr 2012, 13:08

Perhaps the delay in any announcement is due to the new Chief having a close look at the plan before giving it the go ahead.

Luke T

14th May 2012, 07:27

I guess it's looking less and less likely that they will have the cadets selected before the end of the financial year! Can anyone confirm that FTA won the contract for training provider?

pull-up-terrain

7th Jun 2012, 05:27

Any more news? Might be a bit late if they were wanting to have the Cadetship up and running before the end of the financial year.

GAFA

7th Jun 2012, 09:31

Last update to the troops a few weeks back said they are still in the process of selecting the training provider from the final 3 bids. Don't expect a start until late this year or early next.

Cadets will now only start on the ATR rather than the 777. Required number of cadets is less than first thought ie less than 10 per year.

I don't think is a big priority, hence the delay.

JayG_Bull

26th Jul 2012, 11:49

Hi guys,

Have had this lying around for about a month. Have been researching extensively into careers. Was published May 23rd this year.

"Company representative, Ian McCallum, attended the meeting on the second day to provide an update on the Virgin Australia Cadet program. The company is still in the process of selecting its preferred training provider, and is hopeful of making an announcement in the next couple of months.
The first intake of cadets for the ab initio program has been wound back from the earlier projections of 12 to 8 cadets, and the Company is now forecasting an average of 8 cadets each year (originally 25). The company was not in a position to commit to a commencement date other than it had a self-imposed deadline of 31 December 2012.
While the company still maintains there will no upfront costs for cadets, there has been some shift in the employment conditions for cadets since our last briefing in February. Cadets will be employed by Virgin Australia on individual contracts from the start of their cadetship, and will be paid a training salary of just less than $50,000. At the successful completion of the 18 month program, the cadets will be guaranteed employment on the ATR at Skywest on a secondment arrangement from Virgin Australia, but on Skywest terms and conditions, except that they will be paid 15% less than a Skywest First Officer ATR salary for a period of time. Previously the Company had expressed a clear view that once a cadet is in the seat of a Virgin/Skywest aircraft, there should be no differential in pay to other intake pilots. Upon completion of the minimum hours requirement (yet to be determined) at Skywest cadet pilots will then be offered a position in Virgin Australia’s domestic operation.
Whilst we see advantages in a cadet program there are a number of outstanding ‘industrial’ issues to work through in its current form. We will raise our concerns with the company."

Comes directly from the Virgin Australia Negotiating Team EBA Update 19.

pull-up-terrain

28th Jul 2012, 04:06

While the company still maintains there will no upfront costs for cadets, there has been some shift in the employment conditions for cadets since our last briefing in February. Cadets will be employed by Virgin Australia on individual contracts from the start of their cadetship, and will be paid a training salary of just less than $50,000. At the successful completion of the 18 month program, the cadets will be guaranteed employment on the ATR at Skywest on a secondment arrangement from Virgin Australia, but on Skywest terms and conditions, except that they will be paid 15% less than a Skywest First Officer ATR salary for a period of time. Previously the Company had expressed a clear view that once a cadet is in the seat of a Virgin/Skywest aircraft, there should be no differential in pay to other intake pilots. Upon completion of the minimum hours requirement (yet to be determined) at Skywest cadet pilots will then be offered a position in Virgin Australia’s domestic operation.
Whilst we see advantages in a cadet program there are a number of outstanding ‘industrial’ issues to work through in its current form. We will raise our concerns with the company."

Comes directly from the Virgin Australia Negotiating Team EBA Update 19.

JayG_Bull could you provide me a link to where you got this information from.

Does anyone know when they will get this Cadetship up and running?

pull-up-terrain

28th Jul 2012, 04:15

Could someone pm me a link for the Skywest ATR72 eba? (Im struggling to find it).

GAFA

29th Jul 2012, 07:12

From Plane Talking,

Virgin cadets to fill (it hopes) a pilot shortage
by Ben Sandilands
Virgin Australia and ally Skywest today formally announced one way they intend to address the impending global shortage of suitably skilled airline pilots by making Flight Training Adelaide their preferred supplier to their joint cadetship scheme.

Virgin cadets to fill (it hopes) a pilot shortage extract (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/07/29/virgin-cadets-to-fill-it-hopes-a-pilot-shortage/extract-2/)

The Kelpie

29th Jul 2012, 10:21

As expected I am reliably informed that the Virgin Cadetship will be facilitated by Flight Training Adelaide.

No further details as yet.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

Oops Ben beat me to it!!

wrongwayaround

29th Jul 2012, 10:27

Do you suppose that if DJ will fund all of a cadets training (Inc accommodation, meals etc) that all normal direct entry recruits will have their endorsements paid for too?

Not even qantas paid for a cadets training?

It seems a bit unfair to the guys who have done.... (let's say, "the hard road").... Having to pay for training, move away, and do the GA road... Then to get a job with DJ and foot 10's of thousands of George washingtons.

Im not bagging cadet schemes- they have their place. But there's an unfair gap there....

mcgrath50

29th Jul 2012, 11:06

So if you are riddled with debt and given a poorer salary the cadet scheme is no good. If it pays for the majority of the costs, it's no good.

Personally I think this is a great move. They are only taking 8 a year and the first recruits won't be joining Virgin 'mainline' for at least 4 years so this isn't a flyby night thing like Jetstars has been seen to be.

If we are going to have cadet schemes this seems to be the way to do it!! :ok:

DancingDog

29th Jul 2012, 11:34

could you provide me a link to where you got this information from.
Since he already told you, google is your friend.
Virgin Pilot Federation EBA 2011 (http://www.vflight.net/eba2011.html)

unseen

29th Jul 2012, 11:40

unseen

29th Jul 2012, 11:42

wrongwayaround

29th Jul 2012, 11:45

Got it the first time... Numbnuts

maui

29th Jul 2012, 12:25

Wrongwayaround

Qantas used to pick up the whole tab, paid their guys under training and subsidised their secondment in GA.

TAA also picked up the tab and paid their cadets.

I don't think either of them provided accomodation.

Lamentably, the mongrel beancounting a'holes running companies at the moment are hell bent on exploiting those mugs who are prepared to pay for the privelege.

Perhaps Mr Borghetti is a bit more astute and realises the benefits in choosing from the whole field, rather than the select, under-motivated, few that can tap daddy's resources.

Maui

VIMD

29th Jul 2012, 23:13

The announcement has been made regarding the Virgin Cadetship. Flight Training Adelaide has been named as the training provider, with the first course scheduled to start in Dec 2012.

seneca208

29th Jul 2012, 23:23

Job details - Virgin Australia Cadet Pilot Program 2012 | Virgin Australia (http://careers.virginaustralia.com/cw/en/job/492961/virgin-australia-cadet-pilot-program-2012)

good news for any potential cadets.

virginexcess

29th Jul 2012, 23:41

Don't get your hopes up too high.
8 cadets a year is not even going to make a dent on the recruitment and retention of pilots so i smell a rat.
My tip is that this will just be a vehicle for our beloved Mr T to select a few minority group candidates and internal selections so he can wave the Virgin flag down at Canberra.

pull-up-terrain

30th Jul 2012, 06:25

Just was starting to fill out the online application and noticed that they want you to have completed year 12, i finish year 12 in 3 months time.

Does anyone know if i can still fill out the online application? (I called up Virgin and the HR manager on the phone wasnt sure :ugh:)

Keg

30th Jul 2012, 07:31

Not even qantas paid for a cadets training?

Early '90s cadetships they paid for training, accommodation, meals, etc AND gave us $304 a month for 'expenses'.

JayG_Bull

30th Jul 2012, 08:02

pull-up-terrain - I found the EBA from the link provided by DancingDog. There's lots of useful information within.

I also am finishing Year 12 in 3 months and was filling out the application today.

I sent an e-mail to the e-mail address provided on the FAQ area of the information page ([email protected]) stating that I will have completed Year 12 prior to the commencement of the cadetship. I hope for the best!

I further called Head Office / HR such as you. The lady who answered seemed completely unaware of the program even being announced yet! She gasped in surprise! haha. But unfortunately couldn't answer my question. However, she stated that if I do not get a response from the cadet e-mail address shortly (Don't know what shortly means - will wait a few days) to e-mail [email protected] which appears to be the usual e-mail they use anyway. I'm unsure whether to e-mail that address if I don't get a reply however as it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the cadetship.

I shall let you know when I get a reply and what they say.

wrongwayaround

30th Jul 2012, 08:25

G'day Keg,
I think it was shortly after that, cadets were to pay for their own training (from memory in the early 2000's, it was quoted about $85,000)

TheWholeEnchilada

30th Jul 2012, 08:50

The lady who answered seemed completely unaware of the program even being announced yet! She gasped in surprise! haha
Did anyone tell you the one about the Airline that simultaneously employed pilots and made other redundant on the same day?

Left hand - meet right hand, welcome to aviation JayG.

JayG_Bull

30th Jul 2012, 09:02

Originally Posted by TheWholeEnchilada
Did anyone tell you the one about the Airline that simultaneously employed pilots and made other redundant on the same day?

Which airline did that? Terrible PR as a result I bet :uhoh:

j3pipercub

30th Jul 2012, 09:03

Jay, people don't care about that, as long as they get their 299 return to Bali for their Bogan Wedding, they don't care. Good luck with the application

TheWholeEnchilada

30th Jul 2012, 09:34

JayG, yes it happened quite a while ago, in an era of great economic & industrial turbulence. The point is that aviation is full of paradoxes, which your anecdote demonstrates.

"A long time ago in a Galaxy far away..." dates the decade for you.
7jK-jZo6xjY

Prophetic words from George Lucas...

JayG_Bull

31st Jul 2012, 06:27

Bad news...

Received an e-mail from the Virgin Australia Cadet Recruitment Team and unfortunately you must have passed Year 12 at the time of application.

I'm quite disappointed, but can't really do much more if they say no.

So unfortunately, I and pull-up-terrain are out of this years opportunities. But I have been advised to apply for next years program as they will be running more in the future. I did send them another e-mail asking how often they plan to run cadet programs with a few further questions.

Thanks for the good luck j3piperclub. Better luck next year hey?

It's a real shame Enchilada, disappointing. Even at my "young" age I still recall flying being a lot better - even as a passenger.
I suppose there is no chance of it changing any time soon? I guess I'm dreaming now lol :ugh:

Swept-Wing

31st Jul 2012, 06:39

hmm. Surprisingly, there is No ACP ('Advanced Cadet Program') it seems.

BrisbaneR33

31st Jul 2012, 07:48

They say they will take PPLs. I wonder if there is a max number of hours they will take for this scheme.

Elevators

31st Jul 2012, 08:27

Finally here it is!

Pilot Cadet Program | Virgin Australia (http://www.virginaustralia.com/au/en/about-us/careers/pilot-cadetship/#course-outline)

Altimeters

31st Jul 2012, 11:33

I also am finishing Year 12 in 3 months

So it's now getting to the stage where people haven't even finished school and there's a massive rush to join an airline!!! It's ok Jay the world won't end this year, you'll be able to apply again next year! :ugh:

JustJoinedToSearch

31st Jul 2012, 13:23

So they want people who are
1. Over 17/18 (Finished year 12)
2. Have a passion for aviation.
3. Have minimal flying experience?

Surely by the time you are 17/18 points 2 and 3 are pretty much mutually exclusive.

I have a passion for aviation (unfortunately) and when I was 15 I would use 100% of my fortnightly pay to have a 1 hour flying lesson every 2 weeks, and I know many others who did similar.

The only situation I can think of where it would apply would be someone with a disqualifying medical condition.

NuFlyer

31st Jul 2012, 14:11

Hi all, speaking of age, is there generally a 'ceiling' when it comes to cadet programs like these? I'm 28 this year and that is one of my concerns. A few years ago when I attended the MH and SQ cadet interviews 26 years of age was the max, if I remember correctly. I just submitted an application. IMO fat chance that I'll even be contacted but I guess I've got nothing to lose. :ok:

Keg

31st Jul 2012, 23:27

i started at 18. I spent my years from 16-18 earning money, umpiring football, doing stuff with the Air Force Cadets building up my non technical skills, etc. I did so knowing that once I left school at 18, I wouldn't have to do an hour every couple of weeks but could do two hours a week and really knock it over in a consistent manner.

There is no correct answer.

Dragun

1st Aug 2012, 06:24

So will these young-uns have to pay for this or is it on HELP debt? That part abou the fees was kind of confusing. I was under the impression that VA/Skywest will be footing the bill for the whole thing?

JayG_Bull

1st Aug 2012, 06:55

This is just how I see it, cannot confirm it is true however. There doesn't appear to be any personal cash going into this program.

VET FEE-HELP is another government loan HELP program such as HECS and FEE-HELP. FEE-HELP is for Commonwealth Supported Places (CSP) and has a lifetime limit and is separate from HECS. VET FEE-HELP is similar. It provides assistance for payments of Diplomas and Graduate Certificates.

The VET FEE-HELP pays for the vast majority of the cadetship (Post-PPL). Virgin pay for pre-PPL flying, so GFPT as well as accommodation I believe. Then whilst you are bonded for 3 years on the ATR with 15% less remuneration you pay back Virgin. The 15% portion is your payment back to Virgin. So you will have paid your debt to Virgin back in those 3 years.

- VET FEE-HELP - $74,000
- Virgin Australia - All costs up to PPL plus accommodation etc.
- 3 years on a Skywest contract with Virgin Australia, gain 1,500hours experience and earn 15% less (Assuming to pay back the debt to Virgin)
- 4th year can move to Virgin mainline, debt free apart from the VET FEE-HELP which is paid back similarly to HECS.

Also, just because I'm keen to apply and I can't apply this year, doesn't mean I think it's the end of the world. I'll apply next year. I'm going to happily go to Uni and then happily leave if I manage to get into the cadetship next year. Being able to get into a cadetship before I apply for HECS loans would be financially beneficial as it would obviously save me from paying $30,000 on Uni debts, or at least a years worth once I earn above the pay threshold. :8

VET FEE-HELP - Study Assist (http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/helppayingmyfees/vet-fee-help/pages/vet-fee-help)

P.S. The 15% less pay may be beneficial as I think it will put cadets under the threshold to start making repayments on their loan. Can't remember what ATR FO's earned however...

the_rookie

1st Aug 2012, 07:43

Anyone know what the intake number would be? Looks like a few will be applying

DancingDog

1st Aug 2012, 12:29

@JG Bull
VET FEE HELP is still like a loan, it has to be paid back. The government may cover some of the cost, but the balance must be paid by the student. There's no such thing as a free lunch, especially with cadetships.:E

PS: I know you briefly mentioned it, it's just that the way you wrote it it kind of sounds like you're saying it's free

JayG_Bull

1st Aug 2012, 12:41

Ah yes, I see what you mean. I should proof read before posting :ugh:
But I most definitely don't think it's free. Wish it was! :}:}

But anyway. The minimum salary for repayments is just under $60,000. Plus payments can be deferred for numerous reasons once that salary threshold has been passed.

MrBawse

1st Aug 2012, 13:28

FEE-HELP is for Commonwealth Supported Places (CSP) and has a lifetime limit and is separate from HECS

FEE-HELP isn't for Commonwealth Supported Students but rather for Full Fee Paying students.

Commonwealth Supported Students defer their fees through the HECS scheme. In this scheme the government will contribute funds towards your total fees and you will only pay a portion of those fees; called student contributions.

In the FEE-HELP scheme the government makes no permenant contributions to your fees. It only "helps" you by paying your fees upfront but eventually ALL of this is to be paid back. There are also fees involved which brings me to my question!

FTA's website mentions a 20% loan fee for their VET-FEE HELP assisted course which is what am guessing applies to the new cadets. But on the Study Assist website, SA is now one of the "reform states" where these fees are not meant to apply. Has anyone got confirmation on whether these fees would apply or not?

Cheers

TheWholeEnchilada

1st Aug 2012, 21:59

JayG and others considering cadetships, if you haven't already done so, go and get your initial Class 1 aviation medical from a DAME - here's a starting point: CASA AVMED, (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD:1048119379:pc=PC_91521) Examiner List (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_91522). There's no point beginning the process unless you can hold a class 1. Yes, its an expense now, but you are going to need to pay for it anyway, you don't need a license to get it. If you already have it, keep it current.

Just don't have any coffee before your exam. Be aware of recent changes to drug and alcohol questions about frequency of use of licit and illicit substances. I suspect that some young over-zealous imbibers may reconsider drinking levels to hold the medical, its caught out some current license holders.

Aimpoint

2nd Aug 2012, 06:22

Why can't you have coffee? It's never affected my medical.

TheWholeEnchilada

2nd Aug 2012, 07:14

It elevates blood pressure, exacerbating WCS (white coat syndrome). I know one individual that needs 3 BP's taken during examination before being acceptable - classic WCS. Coffee doesn't help, just a suggestion, as everyone reacts differently.

aussie027

2nd Aug 2012, 07:36

Wow, looking at that syllabus, with a whole 180hrs under their belts in basic trainers and some sim time that should make them more than well qualified to sit in the right seat of an ATR airliner.:ugh::ugh::mad::mad::mad:

While many pilots with real world turbine experience, knowledge and maturity, myself included cannot get an interview to even fly a piston somewhere. :mad::mad::mad:

This whole cadet scheme is setup because they think there is a shortage of suitable pilots in Australia or there is going to be?? Are they kidding!!:mad::mad::mad:

porch monkey

2nd Aug 2012, 12:17

That all depends on your definition of "suitable", doesn't it?

bloated goat

3rd Aug 2012, 03:59

...............employing australia's next cheap labour........

tobz92_ymen

5th Aug 2012, 10:25

ab-initio to MECIR,frozen ATPL and MCC in 55 weeks, yeh good luck with that

VH-XXX

5th Aug 2012, 11:55

They are expecting over 20,000 applicants.... Good luck :-)

system.of.a.down

5th Aug 2012, 13:00

ab-initio to MECIR,frozen ATPL and MCC in 55 weeks, yeh good luck with that

Cathay Pacific have been successfully sending their cadets on the same course for years.

MelbPilot85

5th Aug 2012, 13:22

ab-initio to MECIR,frozen ATPL and MCC in 55 weeks, yeh good luck with that

I did it in 52, including a few weeks off.....

sonsama91

5th Aug 2012, 13:50

nt.pilot

5th Aug 2012, 23:41

If you really really want to be a pilot, I suggest you get your HSC through TAFE.. there are so many people who want to be a pilot, so you need to make sure you can compete with them for the jobs..

gcpilot

6th Aug 2012, 00:07

tobz92_ymen

"ab-initio to MECIR,frozen ATPL and MCC in 55 weeks, yeh good luck with that"

Lad, system of a down also mentioned it. You don't need luck to do that pal; just hard work and determination.

I have witnessed it more than once in schools that don't run airline programs.

I, myself completed it in less than a year. Got a reference from the school which then benefited me in a securing a regional multi crew turbine gig with less than 500tt.

All the best to the applicants. Looks like an amazing opportunity.

scanman24

7th Aug 2012, 04:37

Hi,

Does anybody know about the exclusivity of who can apply (regarding Citizenship/Residency)?

I am a NZ Citizen and so have the option to work and live without restriction in Australia. My fear though is that I will be ineligible for receiving funding through the described systems as a non-national, which (I assume) would disqualify me from acceptance into the programme.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

Cheers

doubledub

7th Aug 2012, 13:24

Scanman24, VET FEE-HELP is only available to Australian citizens and permanent humanitarian visa holders residing in Australia.

So based on the facts in your post, you won't be eligible for the Australian government funding, meaning you'll have to find another way of funding the training costs if you're selected.

armchair quarterback

8th Aug 2012, 05:35

geez fancy that! a scheme that taxpayers fund but excludes someone from another country. Australian taxpayers you should be ashamed

nt.pilot

8th Aug 2012, 05:49

@ armchair.. so true

@scanman24 you could probably still apply but might have to come up with the cash for the training... it depends on how NZ students go to uni here. if you can get HECS for uni here then you prob get FEE HELP too, but if you cant get HECS then you will prob just have to pay upfront.. Have you considered the jetstar cadetship? that is based in NZ....

the_rookie

12th Aug 2012, 12:49

yep i've applied. Any idea of the time frame till Virgin will get back to us?
*checked emails

The PM

12th Aug 2012, 15:35

Didn't you read the FAQ? The answer to that question is there....

splat72

13th Aug 2012, 03:59

I work for an airline that has a cadet scheme and these kids are taken from school or uni and sent to oz for their fully paid training and during this time they are on a cadet salary their accomadation is looked after and when they return their carreer paths are layed out with progression through the airline. All this time the bill is picked up by the airline itself, no gov grants , no self funding but a financial commitment from the airline only and repaid by the cadets as time of service.
What Im leaning towards here is that the scheme virgin is offering is not a cadetship its just an excuss to lower condition and once again in Australian Aviation people will crawl over broken glass to recieve the pineapple treatment from the airlines, then in 5 years time they will be on this forum complaining about their conditions.:ugh:

nt.pilot

13th Aug 2012, 04:28

I applied!

BO0M

14th Aug 2012, 01:42

How are Virgin cadets going to fly OZW aircraft? OZW aircraft OZW pilot and since the ATRs are OZW......well you see where I am going.

Not knocking the scheme or those involved just interested on how they are going to sell this to current pilots. Current ATR drivers get nothing from VOZ, can't even get staff travel for family on the aircraft they fly every day.

Cactusjack

25th Aug 2012, 12:06

Anyone without completing high school and pursued a certificate or diplomas applied for this?
I know the pre requisites mention completed y12 with good passes in eng math and phys.
I am a cook by trade but have a burning passion for aviation. Only reason dropping out of school at year 10 was due to visa reasons and my residency was a main priority at the time.
Sounds like the perfect candidate!
Are you happy to work for a low rate of pay?
Are you happy to be part of the new 'lowering of the bar' method of employement?
Are you happy to tickle HR's ears with stories about fun, frivolity and flair while singing a song and building a house of cards at your group interview?
Are you happy to remain in a low paying gig where promotion in flight ops is only gaurenteed to 'yes men' and those with strong gums?
Then feel free to apply now!!

Markoshark

25th Aug 2012, 23:00

Hey Cobra,

Herd nothing back yet. Just re-red my application confirmation email and they said 6-8 weeks for short-list which i guess would be from close of applications ie 14th August ?

That said...has anyone received any notice that they have progressed as yet ?:confused:

sonsama91

26th Aug 2012, 02:03

Cactus,
Initially wanted to find out wether anyone had actually tried with qualifications like me. But since you mention the conditions of once upon being hired by virgin Australia, here I go.
Are you happy to work for a low rate of pay? Can't be worse than doing 60 hours per week for 41k/annum "VA IS OFFERING 50k for The cadets during their traineeship"
Are you happy to be part of the new 'lowering of the bar' method of employement? working in a 'modern kitchen' where everything from stoves to oven isn't working once every week.
The 30 yo grob that I flew in my flight school was more reliable than my oven.
Are you happy to tickle HR's ears with stories about fun, frivolity and flair while singing a song and building a house of cards at your group interview? I do These things every hour at work, not just to the employers but also to the customers too.
Are you happy to remain in a low paying gig where promotion in flight ops is only gaurenteed to 'yes men' and those with strong gums? Yet again, this is an understatement.
So yeah, from what I am experiencing the conditions for working as a cadet in virgin is paradise. It may sound unfair or just plain ridiculous to majority of you.

Cactusjack

27th Aug 2012, 04:39

Are you happy to work for a low rate of pay? Can't be worse than doing 60 hours per week for 41k/annum "VA IS OFFERING 50k for The cadets during their traineeship"Awesome :ok: That will put you financially in the same region as an airport cleaner, check-out chick at Woolies, Lifeguard at the local suburban swimming pool, part-time shelf packer at Bunnings or a second year house painter!!
Don't spend it all at once.......

MidnightCobra

27th Aug 2012, 06:13

:= Seriously there are lots of threads around to debate about cadet schemes vs GA, this has gone on long enough. Everyone needs to accept what this industry has become, deal with it and move on with their lives. Ranting on forums about it isn't going to change anything. This is a professional pilots rumour network, and some of the trash on here suggests otherwise. Good day.

Sand dune Sam

27th Aug 2012, 07:51

Yeah.... It's IS different nowadays.... Get on with it... What I find ridiculous is those that followed crap advice in 1989, actually came back and worked for Impulse and then VB... On lower pay than they were seeking in 89.. Get on with it and move on FFS...be nice to return to what it was.... But it ain't going to happen any time soon... Move on or get another job... Or retire... One of the two!!

Cactusjack

27th Aug 2012, 10:04

What I find ridiculous is those that followed crap advice in 1989, actually came back and worked for Impulse and then VB... On lower pay than they were seeking in 89..
Think I must have missed something? Has someone mentioned 89? Did I say I wished things would return to pre 89? Did I say I was an 89er?

My gripe is with the blood sucking leeches who use the term management to describe themselves, who lower the bar and standards so they can earn ludicrous salaries and giant bonuses.

Now I am off to practise my flair and had better not get fired up as that is something any HR professional would find to be naughty!

j3pipercub

27th Aug 2012, 11:08

It's ok everyone, MidnightCobra has set us straight. A guy with a post history consisting ONLY of cadet pilot programs is telling us all how it is these days.

MidnightCobra, you're right, this is a Professional Pilot forum, so why are you here? I'm guessing you haven't any idea about the state of the industry these days.

MidnightCobra

28th Aug 2012, 04:32

1. I only created this account 2 weeks ago

2. How do you know that I didn't have another account before this one? Maybe my identity almost got compramised on the previous account?

3. I actually like your posts, and agree with most, but posts like that are not respectful. You're better than that.

I'm not one to start fights or arguments, as I believe it does not show a professional demeanour. I do apologize if I struck a nerve to you or anyone else. All I was simply implying is that there are plenty of other threads for people to voice their opinions about cadet schemes vs GA, and that despite the many debates about it, ranting on about it on public forums will not change a thing. I do know a lot about the aviation industry to make informed judgement calls, albeit what you or others may think.

j3pipercub

28th Aug 2012, 04:59

Midnight,

You may indeed have had another account, still doen't change the fact that you are applying to the Virgin Australia cadetship, ergo, inexperienced and never been employed as a professional pilot.

Please don't lecture me about what is and isn't good enough. Please don't tell me to 'deal with it and get on with our lives'. Our lives, lifestyles and future Terms and Conditions are under threat by these schemes that you seem to be very interested in.

I would love to know how you are able to make informed judgement calls, for someone never employed as a professional pilot. Furthermore, someone earns respect, it is not a given.

j3

MidnightCobra

28th Aug 2012, 06:29

I work for a reputable airline, and I constantly talk to highly experienced pilots, maybe i've even spoken to you!, and I also talk to other industry experts. Look obviously as a private pilot I was in no position to "set straight" the likes of yourself (experienced professional pilots), and I apologize that I struck some nerves. In my defence, I read a lot of threads on here and very quickly they often drift of course due to rant type abrassive arguments/debates, that is all I was trying to prevent. Tell me j3, which would you rather prefer:

Post 1: You're all stupid for applying for this cadet program!!!!! :mad: Lots of us did the hard yards in GA and you're stupid for doing the cadet way!!!! :ugh: You are undermining this industry and degrading the pilot profession!!!! Bloody tw@ts you lot!!!!! :yuk:

or

Post 2: This cadet scheme offers a lower package than that of a direct entry, you will be getting paid less than the DEFO doing the same job as you. If you refuse to accept these lower T&Cs, management will have no choice but to keep good conditions. -insert other educational info here- etc etc

Its exagerrated a little but you get the point.

j3pipercub

28th Aug 2012, 06:56

Midnight,

If those were your 2 options, then not a problem. However your attitude in the Cathay thread seemed to be one of resignation to the low terms and conditions for 'new starts'. Fast forward 10-20 years and follow the situation to its most logical conclusion. Do you see perhaps that the attitude that you are worth less will grossly devalue an Industry that you seem to be involved in?

I think you will find that the posters who get their rant on are so exhausted from dealing with the likes of no.boundaries. If you look at the start of the Cathay thread you will see the likes of Dan Buster and 404Titan fairly calm and level if memory serves.

Great windup no.boundaries, hope you enjoy TungChung for the rest of your life while your wife entertains all the other pilots while you're down route, how else can she afford a drink with what you're getting paid?? How did you know I was a Skygod? Did you see my website? I knew it'd catch on...

Www.pantslessskygod.org/wearingraybans/sexyandiknowit/

j3

Tidbinbilla

28th Aug 2012, 06:57

Righto you lot.

Keep the personal stuff out of it!

If you have answers for the questions people are asking, feel free to post.

If you want to bitch and moan - take it elsewhere!!

Low-tolerance TID.

MidnightCobra

28th Aug 2012, 07:53

j3
Agreed you make a good point, but I most certainly do not condone the lowering of the T&Cs of pilots or any profession for that matter. It degrades the future conditions of future generations. Having said that, if the guy next to me is willing to accept these conditions, and I cant stop them so that management wil raise conditions.. what do I do? work hard in GA only to arrive to the same conditions that are being offered now? (assuming the worst of course)

j3pipercub

28th Aug 2012, 09:16

I don't have the solution to that conundrum other than to say, you will have a lot more fun in GA than you ever will in an airline environment, and the times and stories during your time there may open your eyes to the fact that there is more to flying than ILS to ILS and autopilot on above 1000'. Furthermore, you may find that your life is richer for staying out of the airline environment, you may discover another path that you may not have been able to persue through the cadetship path eg. Aeromed.

In a perfect world, anyone wanting to fly for a living would have enough self worth not to sell out the people currently working in the industry. We all know that a perfect world is not attainable thanks to no.boundaries and his ilk.

However, at a glance, the VA cadetship does seem the best of a bad bunch.

j3

MidnightCobra

28th Aug 2012, 09:44

j3

Again, very true and good point. I have to make it into the program first anyways so no point getting hopes up. GA is definitely still a primary goal for myself (instructor rating, flying up north etc). Yes this program seems to have a lot better conditions/gaurantees than the likes of CX, Jet* and Qlink.

jjfly

29th Aug 2012, 12:47

Recieved my reply from Virgin today!! Very excited. Made it to the next stage. Goodluck anyone else who has tried out:)

jjfly

30th Aug 2012, 00:24

The next stage involves completing a Cognitive Ability test. Should you be shortlisted again, you will be invited to do some presentations, Group excercises and interviews in Brisbane. From that they will inform you if you made the cut.

cheers and good luck

Diesel Pilot

30th Aug 2012, 01:54

I find it highly unlikely that jjfly would have heard back from VA this early considering application for the program closed just over 2 weeks ago:

"7. How long will the selection process take?
The selection process is expected to take 8- 10 weeks from the close of advertising.You will receive notification if you have been short listed to participate in our assessment process within four to six weeks of the application close date. Due to the high number of applications received it is not possible to provide individual feedback to unsuccessful applicants".

I don't mean to be rude and he/she may be telling the truth but given the way that most of these cadetship threads end up going I wouldn't be suprised if it's a windup, especially seeing as the user account was only created on August 29.

No offence intended.

Jay Bo

30th Aug 2012, 03:22

I know of a few have had replies. I think everyone that put an application in with minimal experience gets to do cognitive testing online, same as when you apply for atc. This is when the real culling starts

jjfly

30th Aug 2012, 06:13

(Diesel Pilot)-Hi, Indeed ive only created my account a few days,and yes i have made it to the next stage, the cognitive ability test. And so have a few others.

Diesel Pilot

31st Aug 2012, 00:38

jjfly

That's great to hear and congratulations on making it to the next stage. Thanks for not taking my post in the wrong way, it wasn't intended to be offensive.

I am suprised that they have started contacting people so soon. What was your flying experience prior to applying for the cadet pilot program if you don't mind me asking? I'm wondering how accurate Jay Bo is in saying that the cognitive ability testing is for people with minimal flying experience.

Good luck!

Haggis777

31st Aug 2012, 01:50

I have also heard a reply from Virgin and I am going to do the cognitive test shortly.

In response to your question diesel, i have my PPL - 100hours - 3 CPL tests complete. In saying that, i am employed by Virgin Australia already. Hope this helps!

Diesel Pilot

31st Aug 2012, 04:31

Haggis777

Thanks for the info and great to hear they've been in touch with you. I'm pre PPL sitting on about 50 hours, submitted my application on August 1. I'm yet to hear anything back.

Out of interest how did they contact you; email, phone etc? I ask since I remember creating some sort of profile when applying and wondered if somehow communications are linked through that. Also what do you currently do at Virgin?

Congrats again mate.

Tidbinbilla

31st Aug 2012, 05:48

Guys,

Those of you curious about contact times, who's got an interview etc, please use the private message function between yourselves, rather than tie the thread up.

That's what it's for.

Thanks.

the_rookie

31st Aug 2012, 07:33

What about the people who also wish to read the answers? May aswell answer it once then through 20 pms!!!

Tidbinbilla

31st Aug 2012, 10:36

You could always send a PM to that person. Or is that too difficult?

Diesel Pilot

31st Aug 2012, 12:41

Forgive us Tidbinbilla but this is a specific thread about the Virgin Pilot Cadet Program and these are specific questions about this topic. I don't see how our questions to the guys who are progressing through the selection process are misplaced when this is the specific information most of us are interested in.

I don't think there is a need for sarcastic remarks.

nt.pilot

31st Aug 2012, 13:35

I put my application through on August 7... hopefully they are contacting ppl in order of application because i havent heard anything yet :( please keep us updated on any more info you get.

BrisbaneR33

31st Aug 2012, 20:42

I don't see how our questions to the guys who are progressing through the selection process are misplaced when this is the specific information most of us are interested in.

+1

That's the whole point of a thread...

Diesel Pilot

1st Sep 2012, 03:35

Who knows exactly what VA are looking for in their applicants or what their specific selection criteria is. It's all a matter of who reads your application at the time, patiently waiting and a little bit of luck. One thing for certain is that this cadetship will be HIGHLY competitive and i'm sure that they will have had many thousands of applications to choose from.

Good luck to everyone who has applied especially to those who have already heard back. Please keep sharing all the details you can about your experience with the selection process and your background details in aviation, current employment etc. It's all useful and interesting reading for us hopeful candidates.

TequilaMockingbird

1st Sep 2012, 04:56

Has anybody completed the online cognitive test?

nt.pilot

1st Sep 2012, 07:16

We just have to wait and see i guess! i had a quick look at my application again and it says 'under review' so at least its not in a 'rejected' state.... I think a little part of me will die if i dont hear back lol... :sad: anyway i will remain hopeful.... I reckon if we dont hear anything by the end of the week we prob haven't made it through..

jjfly

1st Sep 2012, 22:15

Ive done cognitive test. I must admit i struggled with additional test. I guess it now depends on how every other candidate scores in comparison. I just hope the scores dont carry too much weight. Would be interested to know how everyone else think they did

DylanLeo.

2nd Sep 2012, 22:35

JJfly,
Are you able to shed any light on what the cognitive ability test consisted of?

nt.pilot

3rd Sep 2012, 02:27

so did you get an email asking you to do the test or did someone call you? also if it was an email was the email address a virgin australia one? just want to make sure if i get something it doesnt go to spam... :/

TequilaMockingbird

3rd Sep 2012, 02:55

I must admit i struggled with additional test.
Ditto.

so did you get an email asking you to do the test or did someone call you?
You receive an email from Virgin Australia confirming that you will move onto the next staging of the recruiting process; the online cognitive tests.

Hope this helps!

DylanLeo.

4th Sep 2012, 01:44

Is anyone involved in this thread able to shed light on what the cognitive ability test consisted of?

belly tank

4th Sep 2012, 03:36

Generally its Verbal reasoning and Numerical reasoning, then there may be motivation and personality testing. google it there is miles of info on it.

jjfly

4th Sep 2012, 04:49

It was Verbal, Numerical and Abstract reasoning

cheers :)

DylanLeo.

4th Sep 2012, 07:29

Thanks for that info JJfly.

Who are Virgin using for their tests? i.e. SHL, COMPASS??

Are you able to give examples of the types of questions that were asked in Abstract reasoning?

pilotchute

4th Sep 2012, 23:26

Cobra, the whole point of the cognitive test is to test your raw ability. The ADF has been using them for decades and as I was in the ADF for a while I can tell you they are pretty accurate. You cant study for it so to speak. Talking about it on a PPRUNE forum isn't going to give anyone an advantage over you.

These tests will be done by everyone who has the minimum quals set by Virgin on the website. Don't think your special because you made it to this stage because literally hundreds of people will be doing this test. The culling will begin once everyone has tested and face to face interviews begin. I would say that for six cadets they may interview 40 people.

pilotchute

5th Sep 2012, 00:22

Cobra, I see you hang around the CX thread a bit so will use this as an example. The questions CX ask for stage one are published on many websites and in a publication you can buy specifically for CX interviews. The answers to the questions asked were easy to find beforehand. This you would think would mean that getting through stage one would be a cake walk. This isn't the case. Most of the culling goes on in stage one.

You mention that having a heads up on questions types gives an advantage. I say that of the questions asked in cognitive reasoning ability tests you should be able to answer without prior study. If you can't answer a question in the test I'm sure no amount of studying before hand would have helped. You either know it or you don't. This is how they are designed.

I have known people to attempt the ADF test 2 or 3 times over a 24 month period and never has anyone made more than a slight improvement due to studying. Everyone who improved dramatically put it down to better time management by skipping questions in one section to progress to another. Using the test time divided by the number of questions is a great way to figure out the time limit per question. This you would think is obvious to most people but seems not to be.

TequilaMockingbird

5th Sep 2012, 05:11

I have known people to attempt the ADF test 2 or 3 times over a 24 month period and never has anyone made more than a slight improvement due to studying.

Couldn't that 'slight improvement' give them the edge they need? With so many jockeying for one position, that slight improvement might just make or break you.

pilotchute

5th Sep 2012, 22:36

I would be using my time to study more important things like the Virgin route network and stats on the 737 and 777 etc.

If you have zero flight time try to get your hands on an AGK
(Aircraft General Knowledge) book. Learn the basics of flight and how a piston and jet engine works.

Get your mates/GF/parents to pretend to interview you to polish your skills. You will find standard interview questions online and are generally very similar from company to company. Practice answers to the standard questions like "tell us about a mistake you made at work/footy etc". The next question will be how did you deal with it. They just wanna know that you can think for yourself. Interview practice is essential if you want to make a good impression.

Good luck