REX Resignations

[KRUSTY 34]

Well, the chaos of 4 years ago is about to be revisited. During the last expansion of the major airlines REX lost 60% of their experienced pilots in a 12 month period alone. This time around it will be interesting to see the net effect. One thing is certain however, the management response,.... NOTHING!

Back then not all the losses were Captains. In fact a large proportion were First Officers with well above the minimum requirements for command. REX's response was purely reactive. They began a frenzied search for new recruits, and an accelerated upgrade program for the existing F/O's. The problem was (and still is) REX's inability, or unwillingness, to engage in a stategic solution to it's crewing issues. Instead, having failed to acknowledge the true nature of the problem, they frantically continued to engage in practices which were akin to making beds in a burning house!

As quickly as they could promote 'em, they left. Almost as quickly as they could recruit 'em, they left. REX went on a nationwide roadshow that resulted in Zip! A senior REX Check Captain remarked to me at the time, "Krusty, the G/A cupboard is empty". Tell me something I didn't know. REX then went abroad to places as diverse as Eastern Europe and South Africa. This resulted in 6 recruits from SA. As for the rest NADA! In desperation REX then lowered the minimum experience requirements. This was partially succesful, but only in replacing F/O's, the critical shortage of Captains was never adressed.

Finally, all the upgrades and all the recruitment were being overwelmed by the major airline's expansions. REX then began the wholesale slashing of services. First to go were the less profitable routes. REX had long since dispensed with marginal services, so it should be noted that the routes getting the chop were both profitable and growing. Oh well! Next, REX started cancelling services on the prime routes, those with competitors being saved till last. The end result was an absolute nightmare for the travelling public and REX's frontline staff.

As the seriousness of the situation became apparent, it was suggested to mangement that efforts should be made to retain experienced pilots. LKH's famous (or infamous) response, "I would rather cut off my arm than give my pilots a pay rise". When the serious drain of experience was pointed out, the then Chief pilot commented, "Experience is overated". WTF!

Finally at the eleventh hour, with a terminal amount of pilots about to leave, along came a white knight to save REX's day. The GFC! Virtually overnight major airline recruitment ceased. REX then began the long slow process of rebuilding the business.

So here we are today. What's changed. Well, apart from REX spending in excess of $12 million on a cadet program, not much. The latest round of resignation are interesting to say the least. It seems that after more than a year of shenighans, Jetstar have finally realised that to meet their expansion plans, they will have to offer more than the B.S of the past 12-18 months. This has now resulted in a large number of REX Captains accepting positions that they had previously declined.

Of even greater interest are the number of senior REX Captains departing to Virgin/Skywest for the ATR gig. To Date resignations to leave for this carrier alone, have not only included Line Captains, but Check and Trainers, and Management pilots!!!

So why would established REX Captains, and more disturbingly, those in the "management club", move to another carrier and start at the bottom of the seniority list, for what some may see as a sideways step. Why? Because Skywest understand the value of experience, and REX do not! A ten year REX Captain's wage is less than a 1st year Skywest Captains wage! Rostering practices, overtime allowances, employee engagement, are all features of the Skywest culture that are glaringly absent at REX. REX management had the opportunity to adresss these core issues 4 years ago. They decided not to, and based on past form, are unlikely to consider them this time around as well.

So what's going to happen? This time there is no fat in the system. I mentioned that all the departing pilots are Captains, that's because virtually all the current REX F/O's are unable to hold an ATPL. These pilots are also unable to hold a command at REX. Forget PICUS, that won't produce results for years. What we'll see now is the inexorable decline in REX services. REX have just announced a new Williamtown Ballina Service. Great work guys! Back in '07 REX proudly announced a Brisbane base as a springboard into QLD. That lasted 6 weeks! Dejavu anyone? A senior CSO remarked to me the other day that if we see a repeat of the chaos of '07-08, she'll probably kill herself. Anacdotally I'm sure (hope), but such is the devastation resulting in REX's continual failure to address it's core crewing issues. :ugh:

[Capt Kremin]

You can substitute the word "REX" in Krusty's post for "Jetstar" sometime in the future, provided GFC 2 doesn't intervene. At some stage after that you can insert the word "Qantas".

Quality airlines that look after their staff will always prosper.

[jibba_jabba]

+1 KRUSTY!!!!!!! :ok:

These "Managers" are not managers. Real managers respect their workers and offer conditions to keep valued and critical staff!

They will not know what hits them as there, as you know, alot more people on hold files, and alot more people actively looking to go. It will be a white wash let me tell you.

Sad to see such an event, BUT SENIOR MANAGMENT IN BAXTER RD. YOU MADE YOUR OWN BED. :ugh: Narcissism doesnt produce results long term..... but hey you guys are managers you knew that.

[bigbrother]

And I will 3rd the motion. I have said consistantly that pilots are required to achieve certain standards to maintain employment, yet managers (all companies) have none. REX has a clusterf$%k of clowns at the top who have no leadership, man management skills as would be expected of the various positions. Ably supported by some C&T Assclowns who have in some cases flown nothing else, know no other way of lookiing at Check and Training and so are on a railway line to thier own self importance. Too much Checking in C&T, because Training = $ and we cant just go throwing money around willy nilly now, can we! Best and easiest option is just train more pilots.......what's that you say, no pilots currently available.

Now, where did you say that light switch was?

Lets just say I like it up here at 35000ft laughing my tits off:D

[MACH082]

It's not just Rex who are suffering. Airnorth has been pillaged along with Skippers, Network and co. I believe many more in all these regionals are poised to go. It's certainly good news for GA piston drivers.

The Question is where are they all going?

Looks like the companies are going to have to cough up.

[jibba_jabba]

Yep, I imaging alot of turboprop operators will be effected by this expansion plans of the majors. However it must be realised that staff are valuable, yes there will always be those "jet job" mentality guys, but in reality, if you are happy where you are you dont actively look. simple.

Rex has alot of problems and most have been born from inability to address problems such as conditions early. It has taken the concept of flying as a "fun job" and any moron will sign up for it for granted for too long.

Yes, people from GA need to go to regionals I think; its a great experience and a great opportunity as well now.



Management have believed their own logic and now are caught out by it. lack of staff and training resources diminishing with the recruitment have all added up and surprisingly quick this time.

I bet they are hoping for multiple bank failures in Europe so the world economy slows again to buy them some more time, but its just tightening the noose if they dont pro-actively address conditions fast.

I dont expect a red carpet, but I do demand respect as a professional and appropriate reward for being loyal and competent.Problem is, the "managers" who have not really been trained as managers will not change, and thus, complaining is futile, thats why people are just leaving and not even consulting you! Get it yet management???



Drop your ego's and start being human. I bet if it were a member of your family being sujected to the attitudes that have been dished out to many, you would have a completely different viewpoint. :=

[apache]

Krusty,

Is it true that pilots were getting "SOC'd" on their last route checks/sim checks because Jeppesen didn't send out the amendments in time?

Just a rumour I had heard.

[Stiff Under Carriage]

Is it true that pilots were getting "SOC'd" on their last route checks/sim checks because Jeppesen didn't send out the amendments in time?


rumour

This will be interesting...

Indeed interesting times ahead once again.

[Sue Ridgepipe]

Great post Krusty. And of course pretty soon management will be screaming and complaining to the media because all those pesky other airlines are "poaching" their pilots, when in fact other airlines never poach pilots, but they will happily accept all applications from disgruntled employees of other companies.

[neville_nobody]

So what is the solution for REX? Do you really believe that if REX paid jet salaries that noone would leave? Or do they try and offer lifestyle advantages over the extra pay?

[waren9]

Why not? Air Nelson have a reasonable contract with some good clauses, reasonable coin and quite a few long term pilots happy to live in regional nz with no further serious aspirations. Mt Cook too I'd say.

[bigbrother]

Ba humbug. You could offer $140K and most would not go back. It's all about how you treat people and most recognise money doesn't make you happy if your being treated like dirt. End of story.

[KRUSTY 34]

Gidday apache,

Had a line check recently myself. The Checkie hadn't recieved the amendment either. Bit rude to SOC me, so it became a non event. Probably material for a thread of it's own.

Haven't heard of SOC's in this regard, but having said that I'm not quite across everything? :E

[DutyofCare]

KRUSTRY 34:

Top article: Best of this 1/2 of the yr so far for mine.

Lotz of facts & very well written.

As your ideas suggest: Not a lot of options avail for " One Wing Low " now

Good Job Cobber...:D :D :D

[boocs]

Great post Krusty!! And the answer..... Well a previous Cathay Pacific CEO said pilot's salaries are the result of Market Forces. This certainly seems to be the case at Cathay at the moment as they are recruiting.... wait for it... Nobody!! And why... Their 'Market Forces' salary/package is not in touch with reality and all applicants are saying "Thanks but no thanks". It seems that REX Management are also on this same wavelength.
Market Forces will continue to play out until REX lift/increase their package until it is competitive with the like of Virgin/Skywest and others... til then... well you know the rest.
b.

[aussie027]

Krusty- Great Post, Thanks for the info re Rex then and now.

Mach082,
I was curious as to your comments re Skippers, Network etc losing lots of drivers??
Where are u getting this info that they are all losing lots of guys??
I've been constantly looking for flying work here in Perth for 3 yrs since the GFC hit and I rarely ever see any local operators advertise for anyone. Been maybe 2 Skippers ads and 2 Network adverts in past 12mo or more.

Only 1-3 people required each time apparently.

Last 2 times Network advertised they wanted Braz type endorsed pilots ONLY again for both seats so they cannot be hurting for pilots too badly. They used to train and endorse people. Maybe not anymore, they lost a few senior C &T Captains this year apparently.


Ive got good quality flight experience and good refs and Ive been called to 1 interview in past 3 yrs.
So there is certainly no shortage of “suitable”pilot applicants for any of these regional operators be they t/prop or jet..
The GA well is certainly NOT DRY.
I guess in many cases age, maturity, excellent customer service skills etc and enough flight experience to be a Captain are not what is desired anymore by regional operators.

Many over 30 and 40 something pilots with more experience than me have posted in past 4 yrs they are dying to get interviews to get back into aviation or move up and get nothing at all.
Then we have to sit and read how these companies like Rex etc cannot find any "suitable" pilots or those with enough experience to be upgraded relatively quickly to Captains.
Another GFC, Mk2 if it comes will kill all hiring and expansion again anyway.

[MACH082]

Many operators have minimum contractual requirements such as 250 on type for an FO or 500 on type for a Captain with ex amount of command. These are usually set by the big mining companies as most of the regional work supports it (Skippers, Network, Alliance, Airnorth, Skywest, Cobham etc).

Unless the operator has RPT routes to build you up, then they need to look elsewhere.

In the past two weeks I have had 5 operators offer me interviews. Some I sent resumes last year and never updated.

I know for a fact that most of the regional operators are ringing around desperately trying to get candidates to interviews and sim assessments.

Give HR a call and see what would make you attractive for an interview.

[Turbine Overheat]

What is soc'd?

[Pretzal]

Subject (to) Operational Clearance

[aussie027]

So what does that mean/imply exactly???

[KRUSTY 34]

Basically it's a failure of a check. Some REX Check Captains (not all) excel at failing candidates for the most trivial reasons. The worst appear to be some training Captains upgrading to Check Captain themselves. With CASA in the jump seat they tend to be extra pedantic, just to be on the safe side. ;)

Is it any wonder some pilots can't wait to leave!

[aussie027]

Thanks Krusty, that explains it.
Hmmm that petty pedantic failing of people sounds like a damn poor way to run a C & T dept and a damn good way to piss off crews.

I thought the aim was to ensure a flt dept and crews that can work in a realistic, professional fashion in the real world and maintain a very high level of safety whilst doing it.
Hmmm then again maybe I'm not being realistic. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Going Nowhere]

Welcome to C&T in regional airlines! :ugh:

[SpyderPig]

Slight drift:

Growing up in a regional area I looked at REX as a career when I started training, even looked at the cadet program when it first started. I thought long term in a regional was a prospect, not being a city person.
I even remember going to YLIS as a kid and going on the free local flight they put on the as a promotion the first day they started services there. Seems those days are long gone on all fronts, for guests and crew.

Its sad to see this going the way it is:(

[AirborneSoon]

Is it really go this way, or is PPRUNE just a whinge-fest for disgruntled employees. I've never worked in any company that didn't have it share of complainers. It didn't necessarily mean the company was a rotten egg though. :=

[KRUSTY 34]

A valid point AirbourneSoon, but there's more to the story.

I've always given credit were due. LKH has done a magnificent job in insuring the airline against the ravages of debt and excess. This has provided employees with a level of job security possibly unmatched by many companies, and dare I say most airlines. This has allowed REX to reduce it's services in the past without going to the wall, but ironically if the cuts around the corner are deep and prolonged enough, redundancies in people will result. REX's low debt therefore is not a panacea for a content workplace.

The reason I still work for REX is that I love my job, and I love the people I work with. That's why I (and many others) become frustrated when we see good people walking out the door for no other reason than they feel unappreciated. This is particularly galling when we see opportunities lost due to an unwillingness by the company to invest in it's people, and I don't mean spending money on computer based courses, endless ops notices, or on a Checking system that continually adds to a pilot's obligations for no other reason than to appease an incompetent regulator.

And it's about more than money, but realistically if REX doesn't a least attempt to compete for experienced pilots, it will be left with KRUSTY old guys like myself and a bunch of green kids. And that won't be enough!

REX are about to slash services, sure as night follows day. This will lead to stress and anguish not only for our customers, but for our frontline staff. These people are ultimately the ones who pay the price for management's complete failure to address this ongoing problem.

So hopefully you see my aspirational friend, my motives and those of others having a "whinge" may not be as destructive as some may think.

[aussie027]

Krusty, well said.
I for one look forward to your posts as it gives me some real world info from someone on the front line of the company on a long term basis who knows from the inside what is going on and why as opposed to all the half cocked rumours on this site about companies from people who heard something from a friend of a friend who works there etc.
Keep it up.:ok:

[KRUSTY 34]

Rumour 'round the Crew Room. In addition to some long serving Check and Trainers, both Sydney and Melbourne Flight Operations Managers have resigned!

Anyone know more? :uhoh:

[Normasars]

Good work Krusty.

However, I must point out that it's just a different shade of brown at nearly every other airline. Note I say "nearly".

I know the "feeling" is warm and fuzzy at VA, but they had better start making $$$$ instead of headlines or there will be a lot more pain heading that way IMHO. Airlines/any business can't keep running at a loss forever. I may be wrong, hope I am for the cast of thousands at VA, but ....

Pprune is full of conspiracy theorists and nay sayers. Read the pages of archives. Same crap, different day.

[Macrage]

Krusty,
It is true buddy, BOTH the Melbourne FOM AND the Sydney FOM have resigned!!
Having worked at REX for a number of years I have the upmost respect for the people I have had the privilege and honour to work alongside and fly with and it is with a hint of sadness that I am moving on to another carrier. With reference to your opening post, I do hold big fears for the future of the company if they don't change their objective view of how they interact with it's frontline staff and as one check and training captain said to me "who's going to turn the lights off when everyones gone?". I really hope they do turn things around for themselves otherwise the good men and women who are still there and keeping REX on its feet will certainly have a grim future ahead of them.
I think all the frontline staff know this and hence the reason for the "evacuate, evacuate, unfasten seatbelts, sit and jump, move straight towards the front end of that new jet / turboprop!" :{
Obviously I won't say who I am but I'm sure I have flown with you before Krusty so all the best to you buddy and good luck :ok:

[KRUSTY 34]

Thank's mate.

"Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them".

Problem is though, these guys really do believe they made the right decisions last time. "See, the sky didn't fall!", but as Hugh Dowding famously said, "It was a damn close run thing".

What REX were doing of course was simply delaying the inevitable. I now have a really bad feeling about this. :sad:

[JetA_OK]

Given that there is some 18 ATRs coming and they are all new jobs in the industry, wouldn't it make sense that Rex would have lost more people? New aircraft, twice the size so extra $, grass is greener syndrome.

[KRUSTY 34]

And lose them they will Jet_OK.

Still early days Re: the ATR gig. Not to mention Jetstar!

[jibba_jabba]

I can tell you that many people have had multiple interviews and many are looking to 'evacuate' so to speak.

Its simple, if they had not tainted the staff so bad over the past handfull of years then people would not have left. Lack of resources and workload in Sydney; the attitude of upper management toward pilots and staff are dramatically taking there toll.

Its hard to be a manager, but its even harder to be a good manager. If they want you to stay they will provide incentive to do so. SIMPLE. But its a little too late for a very small show of gratitude if they can muster the effort to do so.

Its easy to prove this, as anyone in upper management will not take a pay cut to do their current "management" job........ Touche....

Rex refuses to compete with salaries and/or lifestyle; as I have said before, it has relied on flying is a "fun job" principle for too long. Its a business, yes, but a business does not exist for very long without competent staff! :ugh:

[bigbrother]

I would go so far to say that I would have stayed for the same money, or maybe just a little extra, IF I had felt appreciated. NH is the wrong person to be a CP as he has NO people skills at all. None. LKH thinks pilots are all greedy and just "want to fly the big shiny jet", so from that point of view what chance does the company have in 'good times'. Sure people will smile and wave at you when they feel thier jobs are precious, but given the opportunity they're out the door. 13 resignations in one week is a sign. Losing both Sydney and Melbourne Flight Operations Mangers in one go, expreienced pilots, check and training, Training etc....

I'm sure management are looking outward and saying these pilots are leaving to fly new jets, RATHER than looking inwards and asking the question, "is there anything I might be conributing to this".

The attitude of some C&T Captains in the sim also goes a long way to pissing people off. SOC'd for questionable issues and applying ignorant "I'm right your wrong" assessments, won't encourage improvement, it only encourages resentment and that is what you are seeing now.

I will acknowledge the excellent skills of management to making the company profitable, but at what cost. When you rather see your skill set walk out the door not for the want of money perse but for a little appreciation in the everyday, a little professional courtesy and respect, then the ulimate price will be paid with a small brass plaque on the side of a hill listing about 30 names.

I will watch this post to see my ex fellow pilots thoughts and how far off the mark I am.

Over to you Blue Leader

[Stiff Under Carriage]

What can REX do to stop pilots moving? Not much being offered on this thread.

Don't get me wrong, there are all valid opinions on here and REX need to do something to stop the attrition, but what?

Pay, many have said that's not the main reason.

Krusty, from what I have heard about recent PC meetings the PC themselves have said that they are happy with the pay and do not want it changed? You said it yourself, it's more than just the money, but what more does it take?

How do you want management to be more supportive? Genuine question, let's face it, managament ain't going to go, but maybe they can change if they knew how to, if they understood what the front line staff needed/wanted.

Most pilots are whingers, let's face it, AirborneSoon said it. Change is as good as a holiday and many are moving JUST for change, as Normasars said, grass may look greener but it still needs mowing, the ATR gig, could be classified as side ways step, it's moving to an unknown quantity at the moment, yet guys are moving to a riskier operation in terms of stability at this stage. Yes, it probably will be a huge success but at this point.....

So again, what does it take guys, if money is not it. Bare in mind too, extra days off per roster equals more money as more crews are required to allow such a change. So...

I agree the recent resignations are only the beginning so what are the answers?

[apache]

SUC...

what is the point of trying to answer these questions for management?
They don't/won't listen. They haven't in thew past! I recall about 4 years ago when the REXPC put a presentation to the board. The board (ie Jim Davis) replied , dismissing EVERY SINGLE VALID POINT that the REXPC had made, and refused to acknowledge any solutions put forward by them.

For years, the management have NOT listened to their frontline troops, or even the AFAP/REXPC, why would now be any different?

[jibba_jabba]

Let me try to answer this. It will be both easy and hard.

Most pilots are whingers, let's face it.....Yes, but only because alot feel powerless against a managment that has been unreasonable in both EBA negotiations and general respect and ability to compromise with front line staff. Resources, lesuire time/min rest, pay, attitude etc all seem to be in a melting pot, unfortunately being driven by LKH's "do as I say" no compromise attitude, which filters through the way managment deal with people in general.
So when pilots "whinge" there usually is more than one reason for it. A small percentage are just never satisfied, but the VAST majority have seen the problems first hand and also more often than not seen indirectly the vindictivness and unreasonable solutions that add to workload rather than produce efficiency.

How do you want management to be more supportive? ....but maybe they can change if they knew how to, if they understood what the front line staff needed/wanted.... ...so what are the answers?LOL, If they understood!!!! hahahahahahaha they have been line pilots, and in the case of the nfom he still is flying a small amount too, although not as much so flying seems to be "fun" again possibly rather than frustrating? Either way, these people know the issues, but choose to overcomplicate them or in the most ingnorant answer to problems get "accounts" to work a solution instead of common sense approach.....remember the "counting the mints" episodes to name but one example... or the buying a cheap tug off ebay, only for its days to be numbered and more expensive in the long run! Who gets in trouble for these decisions? seems like managment dont, but the frustration is passed to front line crews/staff!

Hmmmm, how can they make it better?! lets see....... how about not fudging around delaying the EBA negotiations and deliberatly stonewalling idea's.... how about providing a better rostering system e.g 4 on 4 off? How about checking managment staff like crews get checked..... accountability on their behalf (Dare them to provide feedback forms for there performance from staff?!) How about not being vindictive and decietful with regards to crew! i.e. Tony Richards case for example...... get that ****e off the websites! How about not berating crew in the friday files!
Where do they start, easy, start on themselves, real change comes from introspection and realistic measurement of performance...... attrition rates and staff morale SHOULD be a major sign to these people that they are not meeting standards! :ugh:

Pay, many have said that's not the main reason. Generally this may be true, but its always a factor. I speak for myself when I say a modest increase in pay and more time off would have had me reconsider my departure. For me at my stage in life pay is important and should be on par (bank managers dont care about how cool your job is and neither do wives and kids).
But lifestyle is very important, rosters in sydney are a joke compared to ADL or WGA. 2 - 3 minrest overnights a week compared to 2 a month for most other bases! come on.....
We get one life to live and working is great, but also needs to be balanced so you feel that you can be normal rather than "the pilot guy" who does nothing else..... yawn.

What can REX do to stop pilots moving? Not much being offered on this thread.Don't get me wrong, there are all valid opinions on here and REX need to do something to stop the attrition, but what?Nothing on this thread! Man please; this is showing the underlying problem, friction between managment goals and staff expectations. Also balance that up with the conditions in sydney for example and you have a clear indication that peoples viewpoint need to change..... Staff such as pilots, will leave because they are professionals, who work quite hard in maintaining their proficiency to do the job, and as professionals should have a little more appreciation by their employer. Its a two way street and it must also be given back by staff, in which for the most part they do! The problem is the undercutting of wages is a small % of the real problem but alas is still a real problem. Rex need to be competative both dollar wise and lesuire wise as well as ground support.
Its a case of a little too late, the damage has been done in terms of frustrating the staff who have been the backbone of this company. Even cadets are leaving! What does that say to you? Sadly, if you cant work it out managers then you really shouldnt be managers! Really, What do you expect? You have a business to run but part of being a manager is to be able to liase between business needs and connected to that is valued staff, which result in increased man hours and productivity not to mention moral, which would decrease your attrition rates!

Conclusion:
People are frustrated. Frustration due to resources, rosters, respect, pay and conditions, negotiations, ground support etc.

"A stitch in time saves nine", in which Rex is clearly not very good at interpreting into a business plan.

At this stage, many are on hold files and MANY are looking to go. to stop this from happening DRASTIC change is needed. This either means massive increases in time off or big incentive pay to keep people moving upwards to conditions they definately deserve! Think at least 20 - 30% increase in base salary.

I bet CH really regrets saying "so long as we get 3 years out of you", an attitude that really was and still is short sighted.

[bigbrother]

Yes Appache you nailed it in one. As all the posts so far present the case in point. Management won't listen. The attitude to the PC representation, is just one. It is about HOW 'you', are treated in conversation, discussion, day to day attitudes to requests, complaints, etc.... YOu know sometimes when you are asked a question and you give you answer, that your answer was never really of interest in the first place. "I've heard what you have said, now let me tell you what YOU think". I think that is why people are leaving, not for money, not for a change of scenery.

Now, if someone was good enough to direct current managment to this post, perhaps if they pulled thier collective heads out of the arses, the answer would (possibly) be clear. You can reason with someone who is stupid but you cant reason with someone who is arrogant.

[Stiff Under Carriage]

what is the point of trying to answer these questions for management?

Apache, no respect mate. Based on your comments you have now no right to whingers about REX and it's condition because you are not working to help the two "sides" meet in the middle. At least JJ provided a good response and gave some valid answers to some questions. I am not working against you rather trying to understand and work with you.

You don't know who I am!

JJ, thank you for your response, yes I remember some of the stuff you mentioned, but

Think at least 50% increase in base salary.

Really? And then the company goes broke? Then what?

Agreed REX needs to do something but the above is not it. You yourself said pay is part of the problem, lifestyle is the other, so if REX gave you a 50% pay rise and work you to the bone you'd stay. Before you all attack, I know REX at the moment works the SYD crews already to the bone. Been there done that, but you have alluded to the fact pay will only keep half of you.

Two way street as mentioned.

[jibba_jabba]

cheers S.U.C,

yep, I was thinkin about that 50% thing last night.... prob a bit too much, it was all written in a hurry :O I was thinking about how to immediately make people question leaving. But poeple will still leave if they are then forced into slave labour for it.

I believe that a nice increase in salary or something to stop people just only looking to the exit. You need to give incentive for people to stop and consider the option. At the moment the majority of pilots (and other staff) are fed up with the aformentioned systemic problems, and pay is part of the problem, but yeah your right, lifestyle is another important one as well as the management attitudes/treatment of those under them; Which I bet sadly is passed on from the top down.
This means that using the famous PILOT decision making model staff conclude:

Pool the facts:
everything mentioned in these posts and more. Frustration, pay, lifestyle, opportunity, treatment etc etc

Identify the problem:
Management and CEO leadership then that filtering down to conditions for staff.

Look for a solution:
Better employer who understands value of staff. Or better paying/lifestyle job. OR better job with opportunities. Or all combined (they are out there!)

Operate solution:
Attriction rate explains this.

Take stock:
Most people leaving Rex are reporting WAY better conditions/lifestyle/pay/opportunities etc. This now encourages people to look elsewhere and exacerbates Rex's shortcomings.

Dont get me wrong, every employer usually has something that you will not agree with, but if other conditions balance it out then its tolerable/enjoyable still. Then, the proof will be in the attriction rates for the most part. Ego will not help in introspection on managments behalf to change these problems. Its time that Rex adjust to market competiveness for crew. Its simply saying, we will offer you better conditions and so people leave. Its as complex as you make it and it dont need to be that complicated.

[Grivation]

They could open up some of the old NSW regional bases so people wouldn't have to live in Sydney. That might go some way to making up for the salary.

I'd quite happily give away my current gig to live on the NSW north/south coast.

[KRUSTY 34]

Just on the subject of money, it has of course been done to death previously, most notably by myself. The fact remains however that REX pilots are paid significantly less than their counterparts at Qlink, Skywest etc, to the tune of approx 20-30 precent! This has been the result of more than a decade of opportunism by this and previous management. Needless to say an instant redressing of this imbalance would place a significant burden on the company finances, and in light of the other issues, probably wouldn't have a large enough effect. Paying the pilots extra each fortnight won't do it. But, playing Devil's advocate, making it difficult for them to leave probably will!

Imagine you are a REX pilot and each and every year, you are paid (lump-sum/super salary sacrifice, or whatever) an equivalent to 40 percent of salary. The only catch, you have to serve the entire year to qualify. Leave after 364 days, and zip! So each and every year you can plan that family holiday, home renovation, new car, or deposit on a place of your own. Just try and save $30-40 K and see how long that takes, especially living in Sydney, and especially on an F/O's salary. Additionally, Jetstar come calling with a great deal. $30K for your endo, 6-8 weeks without an income, a base away from family and friends, and a workload even REX pilots would shudder at! As well the call comes just weeks before the annual REX payout. Suddenly the shiny jet doesn't look that shiny anymore.

It's not impossible. When all this happened before, finance did the costings for such a plan. Assuming a 100 percent retention, approx $6.25 to the cost of each ticket! At the time REX were levying nearly $50 per sector for fuel! A small price to pay for a reliable air service? Also pilots that still chose to leave, and forfieted their payment, would see that money being saved by the company. Win, win. People stay, company does not have to slash services, company makes more money. People leave, company pockets the dough! Management naturally rejected the plan, and they would argue that the company didn't fold, true, but ironically only because of a global financial crisis! But this time? Well, maybe something this radical may just need to be considered if it comes down to survival. Fact is of course it should have been done years ago. Now, it just maybe too late.

In any case, least it will have the benefit of never being tried! :E

[Lodown]

Ha! Disappear from Pprune for a while and when I do get back, there's Rex with the same issues surfacing again. Got to love aviation in Australia. Does anyone in aviation have the forethought to think any further out than next week? The CASA continues to implement policies ostensibly to increase safety, but which effectively reduce the appeal of aviation as a hobby and career, and kill off traditional entry level openings through the massacre of GA owner operators and their market opportunities. Rex seems to be an effective partner in the crime.

Rex sets itself up as the new age entry level operator; tries to inhibit the possibility for crew to progress through to the next level of aviation and in doing so cuts its own throat when pilot demand exceeds supply. Does Rex even realise that it has very effectively established itself on the bottom rung of the ladder? Has Rex management discussed the fact that while Rex services might be attractive to customers, there is almost nothing worse in business than being unable to service customer demand?

Rex management (and the CASA) need to open their eyes. The cupboard is bare. The well is dry. Even if the pay structure changes now, they'll have to start looking at poaching from above. That gets expensive. There is very little coming from below.

[43Inches]

What can REX do to stop pilots moving? Not much being offered on this thread.


A 20% payrise to the captains alone would put a 10 year captain above $115,000 base, not too bad compared to QLink and Skywest. Over 150 captains that would cost the company around $3,000,000 per year, when compared to annual profits averaging 20mil its a small price to pay to provide stability for the company to expand.
Throw in better rest times between min rest overnights (based on flt and duty over the previous duty) and a minumum 2 days off before and after 6 day shifts and most of the fatigue issues are covered (both can be acheived at no cost with better rostering practices).
Sweetners to make the package would be a sensible overtime limit of somewhere around 60-70 hrs per month with standard extention payments above and restrictions on tours away from home base to promote family lifestyle. Again these will cost little with proper staffing levels as most crew will average around 60-70 hrs and travel between bases or multiple overnights is not required in normal operation.

At the end of the day i think a lot of pilots have lost interest in long term employment and having to fight for scraps. The company has to make the first move on this front and make a serious offer as most dont care to waste time and negotiate when they can just leave for immediate gain.

[Macrage]

I bet that management are kicking themselves over the last EBA when they agreed to pay per hour for RDO callouts?!

Because I am not married and live close to the airport the option to work on days off was always available and as a result I vary rarely said no to casual days. In all honesty the amount of the money I was recieving per week was frequently over $3500 per fornight after tax and my record was $6000 but I did work hard for it. It made me wonder... based on this, has the company done the sums and realised that its cheaper for to keep paying for RDO callouts than to simply employ more pilots / retain pilots? Has anyone done any sums on this?

I loved my time at REX but another big point of frustration was the charters that were conducted on behalf of PEL AIR. Whilst every charter I did in recent times was all on RDO callout money the sheer disorganised mess that we called an 'air service' really made one think "has anyone thought this through". For me another big point of frustration was the lack of support and the attitude of "we know the situation is stuffed but the crew will sort it out somehow so we won't bother fixing it!". The crew at REX very often bend over backwards to ensure that oversights, stuff up's and mistakes are resolved even if it had nothing to do with their job description eg, checking passengers in, weighing bags and refueling the SAAB's during charters when the info pack said that was supposed to have been taken care of for us... VERY GA! yet thats what my fellow crew were always willing to do... step up and help out. The very lack of even a "thanks guys/girls" from anyone up top really drove the pin straight through the hearts and minds of every REX pilot. Oh... and working 6 days straight, having 1 RDO then doing another 5 days straight only to be told "Oh, buts it legal so whats the problem?!" after calling in fatigued... didnt help either!! :=

Wish all you guys direct tracking, CAVOK and happy landings!

[Macrage]

Sorry for poor spelling and punctuation in my previous post... the last glass of red was too good :ok:

[aceinspace]

Macrage why do you boast about how much money you made by working on days off and then you complain about the rostering practices at Rex 6 on 1 off 6 on 1 off etc :confused:

Stop drinking on a school night and get back to your bus study

[ACT Crusader]

So what's going down between Rex and AFAP down at Fair Work Australia tomorrow?

Is AFAP disputing the crewing anomalies that currently exist in practice against what's in the EA....

[jibba_jabba]

or was that a post to entice GA guys with $$$$ in their eyes and dreams of turbine time :-)

dont be fooled by the cash, you cant do casual days forever b4 you snap with fatigue or wishing you could have a life!

elaborate on the FWA/Rex thing? ..... My guess its about the f*$k over of Capt.Richards and some management and or owner doesnt wanna accept the court decisions???

[Macrage]

Bus studies??

What are you referring too?
If your referring to ground school I haven't started yet. Are you referring to the guys that started at Jetstar this week? Might have me confused with someone else.

[thereandbackagain]

Firstly, to go back to the first page of posts, I was SOC'd due to the late Jepps and going to the sim when they were not available on the notices page. I'm told it happened to others too, but to avoid rumours, it happened to ME.

As others have said, it seems to be a long term attitude from Baxter Rd/Singapore that is the main problem. While JJ's suggestion of a 50% pay increase is unsustainable and unrealistic something significant needs to be done to show a change of attitude. I was at the "EBA meeting" with management and the chairman last time around where LKH said "in 5 years you'll be flying a jet" in response to F/O pay being equivalent to a secretary. They now need to change the attitude from "we expect you to leave and don't care when you do" to realising that they don't have enough people available to replace leaving captains, and so the brand will suffer with reduced services and cancelled flights.

I think the example of replacing Geneva with a program that is still terribly limited 9 months after its introduction shows the "we will just try to push through" attitude, rather than spending some money to perhaps get some more/better IT people to come in and make it happen so that ops and crewing can have a bit more help from the system.

Additionally, the fact that a meal break between flights it measured from off blocks to on blocks time seems ridiculous. They reject a claim if you are on the blocks for 3 mins longer than the required break, even though the engines have probably been running 5 mins by the time you taxi in Sydney. And yet they have beacons on figures somewhere to measure OTP don't they? Just another example.

While fixing the IT and paying any marginal meal claims won't stop people from leaving, it would give us something less to whinge about.

Ok, so solutions.

As S.U.C. noted. money is not the only reason people are leaving, but improving the money in some way would indicate a change of management attitude to indicate they want people to stay, at least for a little while, and would like us to enjoy our job too. I like Krusty's suggestion of a bonus to stay each year, maybe even offer a bonus for some significant milestones in the logbook so that experience seems to be valued (ok, that may result in every taxi taking twice as long on paper than in reality, but lets worry about the detail later). Additionally, while I like the 4 on 4 off proposal, I'm not sure it stacks up on paper as cost effective, but some sort of improvement in rostering/days off would set Rex apart from other operators and may be sufficiently enticing to keep people who don't just want more money.

Rex needs to provide potential captains with a reason they would apply to Rex instead of elsewhere.

While I only came to Rex at the end of the last "shortage" I think it would be fair to say that many GA guys, like myself, saw Rex as the place to get a quick command which would help career progression. As I see it now, there will be the same opportunity if Rex is to take more direct entry pilots who are upgradeable, but they now face the problem of possibly not having enough trainers to make this happen. (Maybe an increase in pay/conditions for C+T is needed to address this too?)


my 2 cents.
T.A.B.A.

[KRUSTY 34]

Interesting you mentioned more money for Check and Trainers T.A.B.A. Last EBA the Check and Training staff were able to achieve increases to their additions to salary. As this forms part of the EBA, they were also entitled to the CPI increases enjoyed by all REX pilots. The Company (most notably LKH and JD thought differently. It took a court case and FWA to point out the bleeding obvious before the company would acknowledge their due. Even then the company has signalled that it may appeal! Is it any wonder that among the first pilots joining the exodus, are some of REX's most senior Check/Training, and management pilots. :eek:

It seems that REX continue to perfect into an art form the practice of pissing off the people it can least afford to. :rolleyes:

[neville_nobody]

On face value this seems like a strange way to run a business. Is there a bigger game in play here? LKH is obviously no fool so why would it make it so damn difficult for the pilots? It would almost appear that he is trying to get rid of everyone. Does he flush out his airline, then go crying poor to the government and start importing pilots from China through his flying school? I'm not even sure that would be possible however it seems bizarre behaviour to be constantly at war with your employees in a small airline.

[AirborneSoon]

PPRUNE is full of conspiracy theories when it may all come down to just dollars and cents at the end of the day. Sure they could be evil management plotting against the nation and associated pilot bodies. Or they just be management who understand where in the scheme of things their business lies. :ugh: let's say for a moment that Rex offered an unparalleled lifestyle for pilots....big stretch of the imagination here...but let's just say they've created a wonderful regional family airline where everyone feels respected, adored and wanted. You know what? Pilots would still leave. The young-uns would leave with stars in their eyes about flying jets for a flag carrier, international would loom large for some of them, others would get bored and some would find more sun, lifestyle and a retirement home elsewhere. At the end of the day, it's a regional airline, flying small props around Australia, that will never be the career fulfillment for the vast majority of pilots who had other dreams when they paid $100k to train up. And maybe Rex management know this. Why try to gild the lily?

[aceinspace]

Krusty I must correct you JD didnt think anything, he was just doing as LKH said the same goes for his other boys CH NH they are all scared of him because they also know their jobs are on the line. The pressure they must be under, no wonder one of them looks like he is about to explode.

Lets remind ourselves who has left recently:
FOM x2
senior Check/Training x2
Training Captains x4
Captains x lost count
First Officers x5
Cadets x doesnt matter there are more where they came from

Rex will always be at the bottom of the pile with low pay, crap $10.99 uniforms a stupid C&t department run by the village idiots having to wait in line for a car park and then four months later have 2 TON come and ask you why you were 4 minutes late.

I dont think any sort of reasonable pay rise will keep crew. LKH is quite right as long as he and his loyal hench men are at the top pilots will leave for other turbo prop jobs, take pay cuts, quit the industry all together or even leave to work for Jet*:ugh:

[mention1]

SOC just means you've been taken off the roster. It could be anything from an investigation to your medical has expired.

Anyway, I left REX in 2007 after reading a magazine interview with JD that basically said, " we don't want to pay our pilots any more. What's the point? They are going to leave anyway."

He went on to say, " the Saab 340 is a great aircraft and we have no plans of replacing it at any stage."

After reading those 2 statements I said "I'm outa here".

The company is stagnant, any thought of anything changing is non existant. Pilots will still be performing min-rest overnights and waiting for a car park space in years to come. Such a shame there is no dialogue.

By the way, when is Saab going to stop supporting the 340? Those EFIS systems must be pretty old now...

[aceinspace]

There goes another one

Melbourne Senior Check and Trainer (and he was one of the good ones)

Who's next??????

[V1OOPS]

I understand Rex's subsidiaries are losing both brand new and experienced crews, along with other valuable senior management and staff, rather rapidly too thanks to Rex's increasing involvement in every aspect of their Ops. On an objective level, however, it has to be admired how Rex has refined a way of extracting every little bit of fun from flying.

[HongKongNewbie]

Checked

:ok:

[KRUSTY 34]

One aspect of the upcoming reduction in the REX schedule may be, strangely enough, a surplus of F/O's. With the large number of Captains resigning, and the majority of F/O's not going anywhere, what happens to the excess? With the constant stream of graduating cadets coming through the system well into the future, REX will have lots of pilots, but they'll be much less productive than they should be!

Also, REX are currently interviewing around 2 dozen "experienced" pilots in a belated effort to mitigate the situation. Mmmm, lets see, when will these pilots be ready for upgrade? My guess is sometime after their interviews with a rival carrier. :}

Be interesting to see LKH's reaction to the revelation that not only will the latest direct entries fail to stick around (dugh!), but he is now carrying a large inventory of spare F/O's!

[Nose wheel first]

So Krusty, if the shortage of Captains really bites and they have to really reduce services, where will they trim?

Obviously some of their more marginal routes in NSW and Vic, but what about YBTL? It's kind of out on a limb up there. Would they canx their TL - MA and TL - WTN runs (bearing in mind some TL-MA and the TL-WTN runs are QLD Govt contract runs) and bring crews and aircraft back south? Or would that put a dent in the Rex groups ability to operate the mine runs which Pelair do in the Rex aircraft when they're not doing Rex runs?

How soon is it going to be before we see a reduction in scheduled runs like we saw back in 2008/09?

[penetrator]

How quickly the wheels turn! wasnt it only about two months ago NH was saying that they were not going to hire any more experienced pilots. Good job the picus program is now up & running ;-)

[aussie1234]

If you drop the Townsville runs you loose 3 maybe 4 captains straight away because they won't move. So I don't think that will help the situation.

[R555C]

The staff turn over does not just involve the pilots. Have a look at the Safety / Compliance Department (Human Factors Group or what ever they call it). It appears that there is more people going through that part of the company than there will be boats arriving in australia with the labor governments imigration policy debarcle.

With the regulators push on Safety Management Systems, and the drive to identify latent conditions within an organisation, when will all parties here wake up and see the obvious mess that is unfolding and the potential it has to casue great harm across the Rex group of companies!

[KRUSTY 34]

First to go will be Charter. I recall on one day alone REX had 7 aircraft flying into a remote location on a mining FIFO. Absoloute "Money for Jam". Crewing these things were difficult, with the majority of crews giving up some annual leave to do it, and requireing some creative reasignment of aircraft. Now of course the situation is completely untenable. Big loss of income, now and into the future.

If REX follow the previous game plan, they'll start slashing less profitable routes first. Taree, Moruya, even Parkes maybe? Usually this will take the form of a reduction initially, but who knows how deep it will ultimately go.

The Williamtown-Ballina service may be stillborn? Williamtown is a class 2 port, so the Check and trainers will have to initiate the service first, and then Check the line Captains All this along with their other duties, notwithstanding that the Check and Training department is a little thinner on the ground these days!

Queensland? Can't see them abandoning the subsidised routes. Keeping them however may require cannabalising some of the Southern services. Can of worms.

Interesting times!

[De_flieger]

drop the Townsville runs you loose 3 maybe 4 captains The captains may or may not be "loose", but you could potentially "lose" them in closing the Townsville base... Whether this would then make them "loose" is another question entirely. ;)

[Horatio Leafblower]

Rex is an organisation with 1000 employees and 70 aircraft spread over 4 AOCs, and offering their (specialist aviation) safety management people salaries that are well below market rates... even taking mining out of the market :suspect:

Hardest thing about being a safety manager is occasionally you have to threaten to bite the hand that feeds you. I can't see that happening under LKH, can you?

[jibba_jabba]

.... is occasionally you have to threaten to bite the hand that feeds you. I can't see that happening under LKH, can you? safety manager, pilot, crewing, operations........ it dont matter, they are leaving and in a way bitting the hand that feeds them.

6 - 8 people in 8 months for the safety dept if I count right, a hand full from crewing and Ops, some managers and obviously pilots. Its amazing, it just never ends, if I were LKH and knew that my managers were driving away great dedicated people, I would be furious, especially if he was actually told the truth, and maybe then he would reduce managers pay and make them "prove" how dedicated they were and only when staff attriction was reduced then they would get a bonus! Maybe I should write that man an email for some insight....

For example, all crewing and Ops people have always reported moving to better working conditions! So that once again that says, management is the problem.... and in that area is the "poisoned dwarf" for those in the know...... another bad apple so to speak.

Also staff have been told to not say anything bad about the new merlo system! Wow, thats a great reporting culture. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif HAHA, its a bucket of bolts that doesnt make work efficient. It was implemented because some manager thought they could save more money by getting rid of Geneva and not pay a monthly fee! LOL its going to cost them a hell of alot more to fix merlo. And even more to fix their attitudes! :ugh:

An Ant's Guide to Management Theory - YouTube

Good luck.

[Curved Approach]

Well it has been a while since I have posted. But I hear we are getting to the business end of the EBA (believe it or not...) and with all this recent movement times are indeed interesting.

I think the example of replacing Geneva with a program that is still terribly limited 9 months after its introduction shows the "we will just try to push through" attitude, rather than spending some money to perhaps get some more/better IT people to come in and make it happen so that ops and crewing can have a bit more help from the system.
Is it true LKH has shares and a financial interest in Aero/CrewPortal???

Additionally, the fact that a meal break between flights it measured from off blocks to on blocks time seems ridiculous. They reject a claim if you are on the blocks for 3 mins longer than the required break, even though the engines have probably been running 5 mins by the time you taxi in Sydney. And yet they have beacons on figures somewhere to measure OTP don't they? Just another example.
They are not, they are from on blocks to beacon on time for the next departure. If the 50 minutes is not enough to give you 30 minutes free of all duty then claim it and substantiate it. If it is not paid contact the RexPC or AFAP directly and you can grieve the payment formally.

4-on-4-off is never going to happen. The crew complements which would be required to roster these simply do not match the company's structure and the hours and sectors operated.

Wanting to move to retention bonus' or sign on bonus' for the EBA is not the answer, it is a short sighted money grabbing solution in the short term which has been a ploy used by management (just not REX as yet) to put sub-standard EBAs to vote and get them over the line. To go this way would defeat the hard fought effort in the last agreement to link to CPI+2% and also allowances to CPI.

Not sure why you think the C&T need more money for now. Or are you perhaps saying that they are working too hard and hence now leaving because of it. The hard fight for their increase in remuneration came with promises from their "leaders" directly to CH, JD and LKH that they would give them increased productivity! So I don't think they can complain now!
Training $15,798
Check Grade One $21,790
Check Grade Two $34,864
Check Grade Three $43581

What we should be sticking to is CPI at least more like CPI+2% and an additional 1% of Super over and above the minimum mandated as well as an extra day off a roster.

Sorry for continuing the thread drift.....perhaps we shall adjourn this discussion to the EBA thread for more detail and thoughts......

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/443536-rex-eba.html

Curved'

[KRUSTY 34]

Agree with you 100% Curved'.

The REXPC/AFAP position is to maintain the status quo (CPI + 2%) It's not perfect, but given the regressions of the past, it's probably the best option for moving forward, albeit over the next 10 years or so. The problem is, the company doesn't have 10 years in which to compete for a limited number of experienced pilots! The way things are going, they'll be lucky to have 6 months! Add to this their almost pathalogical desire to keep a lid on any sort of increase in pilots real incomes, and the age old tradition of stonewalling WRT EBA negotiations, is it any wonder that most pilots look upon the whole process with a certain amount of scepticsm.

Frankly, I can't see the Leopard changing it's spots. So what we'll all probably see is just more of the same. Unless of course management come forward with a real, progressive, and mutually beneficial plan for the future! :}:}:}

[Flying Meat Cleaver]

A mutually beneficial plan for the future is the way to go. Something that caters for both lifestyle and remuneration issues. The flow on would be less looking to leave and happier workers! (imagine that) But I and most are as you say sceptics when it comes to anything to do with the company making the pilot body happy. It would be seen as losing face! We all know its not going to happen. The attitude and culture management have created will continue as will the loss of experienced pilots.

Interesting how its not just the big shiny jet that is the cause of the losses but other turboprop operators! Kind makes the company's management 'belief' look silly.

Oh well, good luck to the company, they'll need it soon! :ugh:

FMC.

[BoundaryLayer]

Krusty, are you able to elaborate on "experienced"? I'm curious to know what sort of hours/experience they are looking at. Maybe I should apply. :} :8

[bigbrother]

I'm going to state the bleeding obvious. Your all f%$#n Dreamin. Stop pissing into the wind as your getting wet. They aint gonna change.:ugh:

[aceinspace]

Agree with Big Brother IT WILL NEVER CHANGE get out while you can then you can have a good laugh at those idiots in Baxter Rd as they sit there crying into their bag of cold Dim Sims saying all the other companies poached our pilots.:{

[KRUSTY 34]

aceinspace, bigbrother, you're right of course, it really is a no brainer isn't it.

Something else for management to chew on however. Apparently not only are REX losing, and are about to lose more Captains to local airlines, but more than a dozen have, or are in the process of having interviews with the likes of Cathay and Qatar! Even more interesting, is that a significant number of these are former Cadets!!!

I wonder if REX have any idea at all of what a crewing Clusterf#kc they have presided over? :rolleyes:

[penetrator]

Well Krusty it would already be hard for crewing with them not being allowed to call in crews from the same base because of rdo call out costs, (unless all esle has failed & god approves it). Delaying flights & crews to get someone from another base flown in to save a few dollars, what havoc is this causing them already? Play their game, I say give the minimum notice to them when calling in unfit for work so the delay in getting crew from interstate is to big then they may have to do rdo call outs, nice way to top up the pay every now & then. Seems the operating policy is starting to reverse it was; (safety, pax comfort, schedule, economy) now it seem's to be(safety, pax comfort, economy, schedule) OTP used to be very important, what will the order be next? Is it the safest thing to have possibly a complete crew operating out of an unfamiliar base on such short notice?

[aviator23]

Interesting times ahead as more cadets 'get out' and with the poorly written contract and other side deals beind made coming to the surface, you may find people leaving and not having to pay a great deal back .....

[jibba_jabba]

I say go for it. Leave if you have the opportunity. At the end of the day, Rex management have taken every chance to reduce conditions or at least make it very difficult to obtain any form of good will toward professional staff (and staff in general). They have been short sighted with past and current management doing what management always do, take the good conditions themselves and crap on those under an EBA.

Well, my furry managment friends, your management talk and awesome put downs of valuable staff is producing the real fruit of its labour and now the short term benefits of cutting conditions and breathing down the necks of crew and taking staff for granted is about to end. This style of management NEVER works in the long run, especially when other larger companies seek dedicated and capable operators and reward them for being part of a REAL TEAM.

Evacuate Evacuate, unfasten seatbelts, leave everything behind, GET OUT!

You can be sure as hell that as bad as this management is/has been, the nature of their "impresive titles" and glossy way of stating their achievments will unfortunately find them offered employment somewhere else if this ship sinks. And guess what, they wont give a ****e about the people they left behind or sold short at Rex! And it will be a good bet they will gloss over the attrition rates! :ugh:

So I always reccomend that you keep your options open, apply for these current vacancies if they suite , and see if you get a shot at it, certainly better than wondering. :ok:

[bigbrother]

ahh my furry friends, I'm in complete agreeance with your words. I will add one thing however. That is to say I want REX to keep flying, so that the A.holes in management, and C&T who made working there like hell, STAY THERE. I do not want them filtering out into my world and given a 'gift' C&T role with fast track to the top, only to take me back to the future.

[Thatschecked]

I've got to say that it is a worrying time for Rex. More so than the previous 'mass exodus'

For anyone considering the cadetship I would say go for it! Barely two years in the right hand seat of the Saab and you'll be a prime candidate for the likes of Cathay, Hong Kong Express or Qatar.

It is now the cadets that are leading the charge out of the company and on to greener pastures.

Why after two years as an FO would they consider yet another two years at least to complete picus for an opportunity in the left hand seat as one of the poorest paid regional airline captains in Australia?

The cadets that have left recently to the above mentioned airlines are only the tip of the iceberg.

ATPL classes around the country are at the moment full of Rex cadets clambering to get their exams done, not so they can start two years of 'PICUS', but so they can send off their applications.

History will show that Rex have done many things right in the last ten years.

History will also show that Rex stumbled and failed in it biggest opportunity and that was the missed chance of forging closer ties with Virgin by becoming their regional arm. In years to come it will be interesting to hear the details of exactly how this chance was missed...

I fear this will be their eventual downfall.

Squeezed now between Qantalink and a Virgin turboprop operation, the latter which, has and will continue to deplete the already thinned ranks of experienced pilots from Rex by offering vastly better conditions.

It is a shame, as I have said before, a good company that has the potential to be a great company, yet seems to do everything it can to discourage the retainment and recruitment of quality, experienced staff. :ugh:

[KRUSTY 34]

Best post of the thread Thatschecked! :ok:

[Gnadenburg]

For anyone considering the cadetship I would say go for it! Barely two years in the right hand seat of the Saab and you'll be a prime candidate for the likes of Cathay, Hong Kong Express or Qatar.


Those jobs are now terrible because the "likes" of Cathay and Hong Kong Express Human Resources see pilots in Australia buying their career path. So they adjust their package accordingly so you can now buy the rest of your airline apprenticeship too.

The packages offered by those two HKG carriers are unlivable for a family man. But I am sure a single guy will be happy to work at half the pay of other HKG pilots hoping that one day they'll have the experience for a dream contract job with KAL or Air China. I'll guess that by the time they get to that level the contractors will be in on the game as well- looking to continue the exploitation of pilots with jet ICUS and other creative schemes that make this generation of cadets an emerging working poor.

[bigbrother]

Emerites perhaps? Tax free though you have to deal with the whole sand pit issues, pay off the house and come home. There doesn't appear to be the 'holly grail' of career like there once was. It's just a mash of almost a good job but not quite. Generally screwed up only by pathetic management, which is where this post started, I think.

[bahboy]

From what some aussie expat colleagues here in the sandpit tell me, its almost impossible for family men(and women) to survive in Australian Capital cities on Rex F/O salaries.Therefore even a low paid Jet position tax free with accommodation would be a great improvement.

[KRUSTY 34]

I'm going to change tack here a little. There's not much point comparing REX with the likes of Emerites etc. Regional airline wages and conditions have always been below those of major airines (excluding elements of Jetstar perhaps!!!), and that makes sense. The problem lies not with the difficulties of living in cities such as Sydney on an F/O's wage, but on the future viabilty of REX and it's ability to provide the service that it is charged with. I know what it's like to live in Sydney as an F/O, but there's a bigger picture.

REX once again are on the verge of massive cancellations to it's services. The level of damage will depend on circumstances beyond their control. I say this, because as we all know, REX were only saved last time by the GFC, and the virtual overnight halting of recruitment by the major airlines. Phew! At the eleventh hour, a huge number of REX pilots were on hold with other carriers.

REX need to look seriously at their engagement with their staff, their pilots ability to at least earn a living comesurate with their professional obligations, and a ceasation of the continuing bad faith at EBA negotiations.

Personally, I think such forward thinking from REX would be akin to a creature altering it's DNA! :ugh:

[Tidbinbilla]

The level of damage will depend on circumstances beyond their control.
The circumstances are entirely within their control, Krusty. They have been since the Singaporeans took over control years ago. They have just chosen to sit on their hands and not do anything for you blokes.

[max1]

The circumstances are entirely within their control, Krusty. They have been since the Singaporeans took over control years ago. They have just chosen to sit on their hands and not do anything for you blokes.

I like a moderator with an opinion.

[KRUSTY 34]

Gidday Tid'.

I was perhaps being a little too subtle. The level of damage (IMHO) will depend on factors beyond REX management's control, because, as you have rightly said, REX will choose not to excercise control of their own.

This will leave external factors (beyond REX's control) such as the level of recruitment by other airlines, and the Global and local financial situation etc..., to determine the end result.

They did it last time, and I reckon they'll take the punt again this time. Hell of a way to run a business! :confused:

[megle2]

I hear Brinda B lost quite a few very recently

[KRUSTY 34]

Be interesting to see how they deal with it?

[Lester Burnham]

Megle2; must be their Singaporean management :rolleyes:

Tid; would you like to expand on WHY the Singaporeans had to take over?

To prove he was right; Krusty should do a quick analysis of the last 3 Annual Reports at Rex and then add back say a 30% pay increase for flight crew and then factor reduced pilot turnover / training expenses. That should be pretty easy for someone of his skills and surely then that would show just how pathetic the Rex management is?

Now if we could just solve the QF issue we can get these recurring boring threads off PPrune ......................

[KRUSTY 34]

Were you at the coalface last time Lester?

You won't find much in the way of customer or CSO anquish in the annual reports! :D

[chickoroll]

Krusty you winge a lot I bet your painfull to fly with!

[apache]

I actually enjoyed flying with KRUSTY.

very astute chap!

[jibba_jabba]

Chickoroll,
just like your food counterpart; full of leftover crap and unhealthy...... just like that comment. The only thing painful about this thread is it is all true! :ok:

Krusty is fine to fly with, and the best bit is you get to learn. Something that Managment dont want you to do, especially in regard to the EBA!

[chickoroll]

Sorry guys I'm just a disgruntled fast food shop owner that never made it!

[Goat Whisperer]

" Sorry guys I'm just a disgruntled fast food shop owner that never made it!"

Better here than in Parliament, with all due disrespect for the former Oxleymoron.

[KRUSTY 34]

That's OK chickoroll, everyone's entitled to an opinion.

However, if you expect people to take you seriously, you should at least show a reasonable command of the English language.

It's "you're painfull to fly with." :}

[FlyingChipmunk]

you're a Mug Chook. you have no idea.

I've always looked forward to flying with Krusty, never a dull day and always ready to teach and share his experiences.

What comes across to you as whinging is actually someone willing to speak the truth and stand up for the pilot body. Someone who actually has refused to bend backwards and ask for what he actually is worth....

...so how much are you worth??:= Painfulllll

[chickoroll]

I'm worth whatever I sell in a days work. I once deep fried 8 chickoroll's cooked 9 plain hamburgers and put together two green salads in one hour I am good at what I do. Thanks for the engrish lesson Krusty you're enthusiasm to teach should be emulated buy you're peers. Whilst we are on the subject of English what's the difference between "then, than and to, too, two

[indamiddle]

chicky baby, try this.
you ate 'too' much. glad there are not 'two' of you. go 'to' bed! 'then' stay there rather 'than' annoying other people.... too easy

[ziggie08]

Actually Krusty ole chap - its "painful"; but I do get your point.

[KRUSTY 34]

Thank's ziggie'.

I did say a reasonable command of the English language, and Lord knows I'm not the greatest speller either, so I really shouldn't throw stones!

I guess the point I was trying to make to chicko was about being taken seriously. I do my fair share of wingeing that's for sure, and thank you to all my collegues past and present for the support, but if you're going to post chicko, how about offering an opinion WRT the subject.

More than happy to debate. If not, then I guess we could just lump you in with the likes of Lester', in for a quick hit with little or no follow up.

[Lester Burnham]

I'm happy to debate; but you never did the simple maths to backup your point.

You think its a simple equation to retain pilots by paying more $$ and that the company would be better off if they did so. Do the numbers and show those silly Rex managers who knows more about running an airline. At the moment the Rex managers have the runs on the board and you don't. Turn it around, show them whose boss.

To answer your question; no I haven't been at the coalface at Rex. But I have at a few other companies where the management didn't make tough ****ty decisions and went down the gurgler as a result.

[KRUSTY 34]

OK Lester, you're trying to call my bluff, and that's fair enough, except for one thing regarding REX Management. It's not about the money!!! I know that may be difficult for you to get your head around, but bear with me.

Back in early 2007 blind Freddy could see what was coming. The REX chief pilot predicted a 20% pilot loss. Clearly not the smartest guy in the room! At that time Rex were carrying approx 2.6 mil Pax p/a, some over multiple sectors. This was a significant increase over the 2004 figures, and clearly a vindication of the REX business model.

Also over the previous few years, in response to increasing oil prices, REX imposed a fuel levy to offset the increase in doing business. Starting off at around $18 per sector, by 2007 it was just a shy under $50! See where I'm going here?

Once it all started turning to crap in 2007/08 it became apparent that REX were unable to replace the losses. Rather than accept the retention of pilots as a cost of doing business (utterly against the Chairman's ethos), Jim Davis stepped up and sold him on the scheme that would save REX. Jim had observed the KLM cadet scheme first hand, but guess what? REX aint' KLM! to cut a long story short, the whole thing was tendered out to the lowest bidder, and within 6 months it was a complete basket case. What to do? Admit defeat and lose face, Yeah right! Or take ownership and do whatever necessary to make it work. The end result, approx 70 checked to line F/O's, the first of which will not be able to hold a command for at least another 4 years, and a bill so far in the tens of millions! Obviously there are earnings from the scheme, but when you factor in the total cost per cadet, the numerous discounts, low interest loans, and of course the infrastucture costs, wages, meals, etc, etc, there is no way this thing has even come close to paying for itself. Where AAPA will eventually pay, is in the training of foreign pilots, something the "solution" to REX's crewing shortage was never going to achieve. either in monetary terms, or in the replacement of experienced pilots.

Now as far as an analysis of the REX financials is concerned, I can tell you now it would be an exercise in tail chasing, and you Lester, know it. To make a true comparison, one needs to look at the results of the alternative as opposed to the "runs on the board". Frankly I think it's fantastic what LKH (despite what some may think) has done with REX. But just how much more could it have been? We'll probably never know.

REX have toughed it out in the past, at huge expense to the traveling public (but that doesn't matter does it). My prediction is, they'll try to tough it out again. Already REX have cancelled all charter quotes, and that business will ultimately go to operators who see the value in retaining a once again diminishing resource. Just how much damage will be done? That will have nothing to do with REX's actions, but everything to do with REX's inaction.

Good Luck REX, we're all going to need it!

[chickoroll]

I think you’re a grumpy old man that has been flying the same **** box all his life or some guy who could not get a start anywhere else but REX! If you don’t like the situation do what the other guys did get in to a better one. I’m sure people are sick of seeing these REX threads Cadets this, not doing that, REX are going to find it tough soon blah blah blah you think LKH does not know what he is doing of course he does that why he is the boss and you’re the Krusty old SAAB driver. Wake up Krusty.
Waiting for another English lesson!

[KRUSTY 34]

Interesting retort chicko', although more like an undisciplined rant. Probably best that you are a FAILED pilot, as I'm sure with your lack of research on this subject, I would have serious doubts as to your capacity to operate as part of an airline crew.

If you wish to offer an alternative, or perhaps a solution to REX's current situation, I'll be more than happy to respond.

Otherwise, definitely will not dignify!

[fdr]

Krusty you winge a lot I bet your painfull to fly with!

krusty, I think you would be interesting to fly with, you appear to have sound powers of reasoning and good situational awareness, which is to be appreciated. Apache has good taste; Chik-fil-a, get a better class of red, use spellcheck, or learn english. :)

[chickoroll]

What did give you the impression that I’m a FAILED Pilot? You should come down to my cafe and have mocha and a real discussion? Seriously Krusty why do you bother after all you’re post you have definitely made REX seem like the ugly enemy in which you so gladly stay employed. You have quoted a number of times that REX is doomed and these are worrying times!