MERGED: Alan Joyce and the room of mirrors

[esreverlluf]

Alan Joyce - please go into the room of mirrors and have a good long hard look at yourself.

Your message to employees today, "Bullying and intimidation will not be tolerated", reeks of hypocrisy with the way management treat their staff.

. . . and that's before you even look at lockouts, heavy handed responses to protected industrial action, refusal to discuss issues central to EBA's and the "Lurch" and "Scoob" incidents.

Then there is the breathtaking arrogance shown to shareholders over motions proposed for the AGM.

Hang your head in shame. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[bandit2]

I suppose bagging all members of ALAEA, TWU & AIPA anytime you hold a press conference, isn`t considered bullying? These people are members of your workforce also Alan!

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

There's "bagging", and then there's broken car windows, home drive bys, and death threats! :hmm:

A bit of perspective folks!

[Keg]

The overwhelming numbers of QF employees would condemn these threats. Don't tar all Qantas employees and union embers with the same brush. A bit of perspective from all sides would be a great thing.

That includes some empathy from Qantas that the games they are playing industrially involve individual people- many of whom fear greatly for their livelihood. Whilst no reasonable person would condone these threats, AJ et al are seriously ignorant if they don't think that their industrial tactics also don't look like bullying and intimidation to front line staff.

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

Again they are thin with the truth.

Where in this so called letter (which could have been written by anyone) is there a death threat? I didn't realise that being shoved off out of Australia is equal to death.

[ohallen]

Agree that these threats if real are unacceptable BUT everyone please be clear there is simply no evidence as to where they came from, so lets keep an open mind on that.

As an outside observer of the events, it is apparent that any number of parties in these disputes could have been responsible either as a deliberate strategy or as a sign of the ongoing pressure of the moment or even stupidity.

Remember the outcome this morning is overwhelming sympathy for the company and general denigration of the tactics of the unions, nothing more and nothing less and with no fact as to the source.

The other point that should be made is that the actions of the Exec so far go way beyond looking like a threat, they were a threat and delivered in a way over many years that has largely been responsible for the situation that now exists between the Rat and its employees.

Some balance and perspective needed by all I would say on these issues.

[ruprecht]

I wonder if management wrote the letter themselves.

It certainly wouldn't surprise me.:rolleyes:

ruprecht

[TIMA9X]

Death threats, if true, are way, way over the top and damaging to the cause.
The overwhelming numbers of QF employees would condemn these threats. Don't tar all Qantas employees and union members with the same brush.I believe this as well, there is only one way to win this battle, stay cool. The managers will play this tune all the way up to the AGM. I hope the AFP and or the NSW police get to the source of the alleged "threat letter," it's stupid

The other point that should be made is that the actions of the Exec so far go way beyond looking like a threat, they were a threat and delivered in a way over many years that has largely been responsible for the situation that now exists between the Rat and its employees.I have to agree with this, and I am a huge critic of the current management, not just AJ, LC & OW. None of this would be happening if they sat down at the negotiation table with all the relevant unions. The whole thing has been badly handled from the beginning, sad it has come to this.

[Anulus Filler]

The sad this about this whole sordid situation is that the respect is gone for this current executive team. How can we even sit down and attempt to discuss our differences with such contempt. These seeds were planted years ago and there has been ample opportunity to act upon the negative feelings. Just look at the (dis)engagement surveys!!! Instead, its steady as she goes while management keep earning those huge bonuses....hopefully the staff won't rock the boat too much.

How does it feel to have a workforce that do the absolute minimum and be in a constant state of agitation? Talk about huge losses in productivity. Look at your sick leave. Notice the trends?

If/when we ever do sit around a table, we will already be hundreds of millions of dollars down, even before we start.

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

I wonder if management wrote the letter themselves.

...if true...

...there is simply no evidence as to where they came from...

This claim smacks of industrial relations bullsh!t from a desperate management seeking public sympathy...
:*:suspect::rolleyes:

A wise man once told me, "When faced with the choice betwen a f%$# up and a conspiracy, go with the f%$# up everytime!"

Someone else famously said, "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck!"

From the point of view of the man in the street who has no dog in this fight, Qantas has won the PR battle today. If I were Qantas management, I would be even less inclined now to be conciliatory than I was before.

You guys are clearly living in a long river in Africa!:hmm:

[ozbiggles]

I'm surprised you would be taken in so easily FA.
If it was a credible threat why would it be splashed all over the front page of the media with only one side of the story being told with a glossy PR photo and a readily briefed spin cycle ready to go from the Sunrise program on today?
I'm sure the NSW police didn't advise them to handle it this way.
There is no place for such threats but using it as a PR counter attack just stoops to close to the same level.

[DutchRoll]

"When faced with the choice betwen a f%$# up and a conspiracy, go with the f%$# up everytime!"

So let's be clear then that the Qantas cargo price fixing cartel was merely a f....up. After all, anybody, including very senior Qantas Management, can make an innocent mistake, right?

[Worrals in the wilds]

Possibly the coppers took one look and found nothing of interest. The published exerpts certainly weren't death threats and it was arguable whether they even threatened violence.

It hasn't made this evening's Ten news so far, 'twill be interesting to see if it's on the channel 7 bulletin. EDIT: Coming Up Next...not until 1730 though. Hardly deemed groundbreaking by 10. There was a police statement...about a letter sent in May where the author was identified. Nothing about this one though. :suspect:

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

I have to agree with FA18 a little.
Qantas got what they wanted today. They got "Death threats" plastered all over the newspapers.
But I think the unintended consequences for them are many. They will never be able to write and email, letter, or say anything to anybody that might be construed as intimidating or bullying. Also, the emails, letters etc that have already been produced, and we know there are many, are now being collated for future use against them. The unions could probably sue, which puts the credibilty of the management on the public stage. And really it seems nobody actually believed it anyway, from the people I talk to. I think the unions coming out early with the "it's all bull****, and we'll prove it" routine was excellent. And the media did help by immediately adding that to the stories, and the headlines.
It has now dropped of every newspaper on line, Probably because nobody cares about Alan Joyce, and I suspect that will be that.

[UPPERLOBE]

The damage has been done, the public have swallowed the lie "it was on the front page so it must be true" etc.

Guarantee you won't see the newspaper concerned retract the story with a full front page apology to the so called 'union thugs' tomorrow. :mad:'s

[ohallen]

Since when did the Rat have its own police force in their Security Dept. They have no more rights than Joe Blow public and certainly are not a police force with statutory powers.

If they come near you tell them to bugger off and there is sod all they can do about it if it is not work related matters they are asking about.

If there was a genuine threat, then there is only one place for it to go and that is either Feds or State police.

As far as I know there are no private armies in Australia but this is the Rat so who knows, they seem to be a law unto themselves on every front.

[ACT Crusader]

The overwhelming numbers of QF employees would condemn these threats. Don't tar all Qantas employees and union embers with the same brush. A bit of perspective from all sides would be a great thing.



"union embers" - ironic slip there Keg :) Im sure Qantas would love if the union fire was out.....

This reminds me of the shovel in front of HSU Nat Sec Kathy Jackson's house after she went to the police.

Both incidents (as reported) are pretty shocking IMO

[virgindriver]

As far as I know there are no private armies in Australia but this is the Rat so who knows

Perhaps they will call in the IRA?

[TallestPoppy]

Lads and Ladettes

Please accept my ignorance, its been over 2 decades since I left Australia, but I try to keep up by regularly reading the various Australian newspapers, watching Australian news via the web, and of course, via Pprune.

How did the current situation with QF occur?

As someone who left Australia, and managed to make a go of it with a foreign carrier, it has been saddening to read these pages.

There was a thread which suggested that a LAME was required for every walk around, and many pilots who said that "I am not qualified to do a walk-around". The rest of the world manages it, and I assume you would too if you diverted to an airport without a resident LAME.

There have been many posts suggesting passengers prefer to hear an Australian accent, and like know that an Australian pilot is flying them. Um, if that was the case, flights by Emirates, Etihad, Thai, Cathay, Malaysian etc would not have any Australian passengers on them.

Outside Australia there is no Long Service Leave, and less annual leave, so the cost of employing Australians, in Australia, is comparatively higher than employing people overseas on that metric alone.

Within Australia, the weather is relatively benign, and if you doubt that, visit Europe and North America in winter. De-icing and CAT 3 all day is not cheap.

What changes to salary reductions and working practices changes have the Qantas unions negotiated over the last few years, to ensure they are the people the company wants to do their work? I know of airlines overseas where the employees have voluntarily accepted permanent reductions in salary and made employment concessions. Hence they are cheaper, and therefore more attractive to the customer, but also more attractive to their employer.

And finally, why are you playing the man, and not the ball? There seems to be so much vilification of the QF CEO, and the Spokeswoman. Why are you doing that, and not negotiating with the CEO?

You can say that you are the world's best and safest pilots till you go blue in the face, if the ticket price is higher you will lose out. The future is in your own hands.

[Dixons Millions]

Extract from letter written by FAAA to all cabin crew.

"Attention all Long Haul Cabin Crew
ME TOO - WHY AREN'T WE OUT ON THE GRASS?

Following the well-attended series of membership meetings, many members have asked regarding the support cabin crew and the FAAA can give to the industrial campaigns of AIPA, the LAMEs and the TWU in relation to their disputes with Qantas. The support you and the FAAA can give is extremely limited.
As mentioned briefly in our newsletter regarding the PAs supporting AIPA's campaign, significant penalties can be inflicted on individual employees and unions that support the industrial campaigns of other unions or employees. These penalties are generally known as "secondary boycotts" and largely prohibit a party not involved directly in an industrial dispute from taking any action in support of another group of employees against their employer.
An employer that is affected by the actions of individuals or another union conducting secondary boycotts can seek an urgent injunction to stop the conduct in the Federal Court. Damages can be awarded by the Federal Court and the employer also has the ability to sue for damages to cover any losses it has suffered.
Damages can also be awarded against individuals and unions that take industrial action outside of the framework of protected action under the Fair Work Act. Qantas was not shy in seeking damages against the TWU when it took unprotected action in 2009. The Federal Court awarded in excess of $700,000 in favour of Qantas against the TWU when the TWU took wildcat strike action at four airports for four hours.
You also need to be aware that comments posted on social networking sites and in emails should be written as if you are addressing your manager at Qantas. Social networking sites are never "private" and emails are often forwarded to individuals they were never intended to be sent to. As an employee, your primary duty is to your employer, not supporting an industrial campaign you are sympathetic with but does not directly affect you.
The FAAA believes that our membership deserves focus on its direct interests, in particular negotiations for the next long haul cabin crew EBA. This is why we sought a five year EBA (the longest possible term) following the last series of EBA negotiations. This is why we met with Alan Joyce regarding the future of the International Division. This is why we have requested that negotiations for the next EBA start early in November to prepare to advance the interests of our members early for the difficulties facing Qantas' international division.
The long term interests of our members are best served by addressing our immediate and future terms and conditions. Cabin crew have experienced more dramatic outsourcing of our work than any other group of Qantas employees. Our long term survival will be addressed by ourselves and no one else in the Qantas group."

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

Seems like it's been going on a while...

Qantas management and staff threatened

Item by australianaviation.com.au (http://australianaviation.com.au/author/andrew-mclaughlin/) at 6:38 pm, Wednesday October 5 2011
Qantas has revealed that CEO Alan Joyce and other airline management and staff have received threats and intimidating notes in recent months.

Speaking to media in Sydney on October 5, Joyce said the threats go back to May, and that the airline had gone public only after a media outlet broke the story and an email he wrote to staff about the matter on October 4 was leaked.

“We’ve had this for some time,” he said. “The reason why we went public on it is as a consequence of the dispute we had the week before last. We actually had some bullying and intimidation… We had some damage of staff property, we had notes that were left at managers’ houses – people with small kids, and these were very abusive notes that were very clearly aimed at people that were management contingency during the industrial action.”

Joyce added that the email to all 30,000 of Qantas’s employees was to not only tell them that bullying and intimidation was not acceptable, but to also provide support to potential victims who were yet to come forward. “We decided that the best way to approach this was to give people the help and assistance they need,” he said. “Because our worry was that some people are not communicating all of the issues to us, so we put a note out telling people about the security (phone) numbers and the whistle blower numbers, so we can address any issue that’s occurred.”

Some representatives of unions currently in dispute with the airline, including Transport Workers’ Union (TWU) Secretary Tony Sheldon and Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association (ALAEA) Secretary Steve Purvinas have suggested the threats were a publicity stunt by the airline, with Sheldon suggesting police should check the computer hard drives of Qantas’s PR team.

“I don’t think it’s been helpful for some of the union leaders to claim this is all a PR stunt,” said Joyce, responding to the unions’ suggestions. “This is not a PR stunt. There are actually people who have been intimidated, there have been cases that have gone to the police, and the police are investigating it. And I have to say that I think these union leaders should be taking it seriously, and those union leaders that are trying to deflect it and nearly be apologetic for it is just appalling. It just emphasises why we need union leaders to be strong and to say this behaviour, no matter where it comes from, is unacceptable.”

Qantas Head of Corporate Communications Olivia Wirth added that the airline had raised the matter with the TWU during discussions last week, the ALAEA today, and the Australian Council of Trade Unions (ACTU), but the airline was yet to receive any assurances from the unions that their members were not involved.

Joyce wouldn’t elaborate on the specific nature of the threats, saying only that police were investigating.

(Emphasis mine)

[DutchRoll]

Wonder who leaked the email? There is no conceivable benefit, I don't think, for a Qantas employee to leak the email about intimidation.......unless they are someone who is seeking a sympathy vote for Management.

As has been said numerous times, and as supported by ample evidence and eyewitnesses, this "intimidation" is not entirely directed towards Management. An awful lot of it actually originates from Management and that has been the case since PIA was first mentioned, let alone voted on.

Yet strangely, Alan Joyce has chosen not to previously distribute any emails to Management warning them not to take matters into their own hands.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Boy have I seen some lies in the Murdoch press in the last few days. They had the letter that was written to Joyce all along and the person had put their name to the letter. There was no threat at all let alone a death threat and they knew it. So what is the front page headline - Qantas Boss Death Threat.

The airline did not speak to us today or yesterday at all about any of this. Stay focused good Qantas employees.

At this point in time the only union or company found guilty in a Federal Court of illegal coercion regarding a workplace dispute is? You guessed it - Qantas. All Managers involved in that finding earlier this year of course are still employed in their positions.

Don't get too angry about it. The truth will set you free.

[Fris B. Fairing]

An email to 30,000 people got leaked?

[adsyj]

Steve

You have got a tough gig, thats for sure.

I am not a lame but have a dog in this fight elsewhere. I have had a gutful and AJ and his mates have know knowingly besmerched everybodies reputation with his judicious and ultimately false leaks to the press.

I reckon it is time to ramp it up, lets get out there with a show of force, dare I use the S word but bugger them lets bring the whole thing to a head and prepare a statement outlining all of managements bull**** and make sure the public know. We must get the truth out there. It's going to be painful sure but enough is enough. We have still have 1000 staff who don't know where they stand with the company.

Qantas management aren't going to negotiate in any meaningful way that has been proven over and over again. It is a stalemate and we need to break it.

We want answers and some form of finality whatever that may be.

EDIT: I am just grumpy this morning and the above was just a rant, I know nothing about Industrial Relations so don't rip me a new one, if I was a woman I would blame it on PMS but i can only blame a sore tooth.

[Ticking Timebomb]

re: - At this point in time the only union or company found guilty in a Federal Court of illegal coercion regarding a workplace dispute is? You guessed it - Qantas. All Managers involved in that finding earlier this year of course are still employed in their positions.

And let me guess Qantas International paid the legal bill.

[ohallen]

They had the letter that was written to Joyce all along and the person had put their name to the letter. There was no threat at all let alone a death threat and they knew it.

Assuming this is correct it is one of the most appalling things I have ever seen with this lot and shows the level of integrity.

Again these matters must be aired in the media ( A headline Are you Joking...with the letter underneath would seem appealing and appropriate for all to see).

I think this also should be referred to ASIC (and don't whinge about them being useless) because when their file gets big enough someone may act and it costs nothing.

Why not even refer it as a complaint against the media. Maybe Senator Xenophon can assist here??

Noticed this morning even Ch 7 are started to put some balance into commentary which shocked me given their history.

It is time to start playing tough as the game is still all one sided.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Hey all. I know the ALAEA won't be stepping up our action to bring it to a head because someone is telling lies in the papers. Our plans have been prepared for some time and we will remain focused.

Looking forward to Monday though.

[Disengagement]

Was Qantas Management found guilty of a campaign of Buggery a few years back :="I will have your house and your Kids will be on the streets " :=:=:=
Too use a Qantas management phase " Get a can of Harden the F#@K Up"
I did not know the Qantas news was now published by the Murdoch press :E
Just sitting by the river waiting for what floats past ;)

[hotnhigh]

Got to disagree with adsyj. I think that's what qantas is hoping for (ie a group trying to bring it to a rapid conclusion) That would take the heat lamp away from their backsides and we would miss the opportunity to see the blow torch applied at the agm.
Whilst AJ and LC shenanigans continue, they fail to deliver any benefits to Qantas and the more time should be spent asking about more of the absurd strategies.
eg:British Airways to offer new First Class on Sydney flights - Spice News: Special Events, Product Launches, Incentives, Conferences, Exhibition (http://www.spicenews.com.au/2011/10/05/article/British-Airways-to-offer-new-First-Class-on-Sydney-flights/XYUBOFSEQJ.html)

So not only does Qantas lose out on the two routes that have been given to BA but the one that BA operates to Australia, has an increase in seats via BA744s. SO under their decision, we have an increase in seats operated by competitors into Australia, on certain routes, but a reduction of seats operated by Qantas outbound.
Bloody fantastic decision AJ.
Perhaps Leigh and Alan would like to write to cricket Australia with an equally ingenious plan to regain the ashes.
If we move the Sheffield shield comp to KL, Singapore or Ho Chi Min we might have a chance, according to these clowns.

[The masked goatrider]

To Steve P. This News Ltd mob clearly have no issue writing lies on behalf of Qantas. It must have something to do with the money they spend with them. I don't think they will be on any of our sides so why not try this for a form of pia.

Lames to have a 2 hour stoppage between 0700 and 0900 on any day that Qantas has advertising within a News Ltd paper in that State.

That being Tele, Cm, HS and fin rev.

[Captain Gidday]

Hey Goatrider, don't forget the influential :* Manly Daily, also a News Ltd publication. There are many others e.g. the North Shore Times [Inner Sydney north].

[qf 1]

read the telegraph front to back yesterday and couldn't find i one death threat in there,where was it or did i miss a few pages ????:confused:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Very thoughtful Goaty but I'm pretty sure we don't want the main newspapers going nuts at us. Our plans are ticking along nicely, don't fall for their traps.

[qf 1]

Work slump? It's not you, it's your boss, Society for Knowledge Economics study finds

Save this story to read later (http://www.news.com.au/business/worklife/work-slump-its-not-you-its-your-boss-society-for-knowledge-economics-study-finds/story-e6frfm9r-1226160470755#)



AAP
October 06, 2011 4:42PM




Good bosses create better workplaces, study found
"Investing in people" the key to productivity
Work slump? Take our New Work Project survey (http://www.news.com.au/business/worklife/new-work-project-help-shape-the-workplace-of-the-future/story-e6frfm9r-1226144532603)


ALSO




New Work Project: Invent your perfect job (http://www.news.com.au/business/worklife/new-work-project-help-shape-the-workplace-of-the-future/story-e6frfm9r-1226144532603)



http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2011/10/06/1226160/482573-frustrated-worker.jpg
The report found the quality of an organisation's leaders and their ability to innovate and create positive employee experiences directly related to financial performance and productivity. Picture: ThinkStock



COMPANIES with strong leadership and a positive workplace culture are significantly more productive and profitable than their less progressive peers, new research presented at the federal government's jobs forum shows.

An 18-month study by the Society for Knowledge Economics found that High Performing Workplaces have 12 per cent higher productivity than Low Performing Workplaces when ranked in terms of their innovation, employee engagement, fairness, leadership and customer satisfaction.
How would you change your workplace to help everyone work better? Scroll down the page to take our New Work Project survey.
"It is clear from this research the key to increasing productivity at the workplace level comes from investing in people rather than changing the industrial relations system," Jobs Minister Chris Evans said.
The report found that the quality of an organisation's leaders and their ability to innovate and create positive employee experiences was directly related to the organisation's financial performance and productivity.

Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar. (http://www.news.com.au/business/worklife/work-slump-its-not-you-its-your-boss-society-for-knowledge-economics-study-finds/story-e6frfm9r-1226160470755#sidebar-end)




End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar. (http://www.news.com.au/business/worklife/work-slump-its-not-you-its-your-boss-society-for-knowledge-economics-study-finds/story-e6frfm9r-1226160470755#sidebar-start)


It also found that the average profit margin of High Performing Workplaces was three times higher than those of Low Performing Workplaces.
"The Gillard government's investment in workplace research shows we are committed to exploring every possible avenue to create better jobs, smarter workplaces and a more productive economy," Senator Evans said.
"This report provides clear evidence that improving Australia's productivity can be achieved by developing leadership and management capabilities in Australian workplaces."
The report involved 78 companies and more than 5000 employees.


Read more: Work slump? It's not you, it's your boss, Society for Knowledge Economics study finds | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/business/worklife/work-slump-its-not-you-its-your-boss-society-for-knowledge-economics-study-finds/story-e6frfm9r-1226160470755#ixzz1Zz2VUF00)

[Nassensteins Monster]

Qantas' HR policy crashes to earth

Christopher J Tipler
Published 6:24 AM, 6 Oct 2011
inShare

It is painful to watch the very public disputes between Qantas and many of its staff. The company says it is committed to "engaging and developing our people", and the chairman states that "Qantas employees represent the Australian spirit at its finest". Yet the company does not seem to know how to forge a constructive relationship with its people.

So we are treated to an ugly and somewhat predictable set piece battle in which highly-paid executives seek to reduce labour costs, pilots abuse their position by soliciting public support from the cockpit and baggage handlers strike when the market is most sensitive. Same old, same old. It is unedifying, it is destroying shareholder value in the short term and there is no evidence that the conflict will lead to value creation in the long term.

For some years now, the global airline industry has been a crucible for human resources experiments as airlines tried different strategies to reduce costs in ferociously competitive markets. Lots of things have been tried: confrontation and pitched battles with unions, conflict resolution, outsourcing, flexible work rules, different staff selection methods, training for teamwork, supervisory coaching, partnering with unions, captains as leaders of the flight departure process, cross-functional accountabilities and so on.

These strategies have typically been combined to achieve both absolute cost reduction and productivity enhancement, with the former being commonly referred to as ‘low road’ and the latter as ‘high road’. With the lower cost structure of its Jetstar business in mind, Qantas seems to be focused mainly on low-road strategies to reduce pay rates and benefits.

Across the industry, there is little evidence to suggest that any of these strategies will produce durable outcomes unless they are part of a wide-reaching, enlightened plan to link the personal motivation of employees to desired commercial outcomes. Helping the company achieve this objective should be the mission statement of the Qantas human resources director and a central objective of the Qantas management team and board.

How can Qantas create a new relationship with its 31,000 staff, one that reflects engagement in common cause rather than traditional, adversarial, win-lose positions? This is a very big subject, but some of the required elements of a new, twenty-first century, model are outlined below.

Transparency of strategy

By its very nature, common cause requires the mission to be a shared one. This means that Qantas’ strategic and operational agenda must not only be clearly communicated to employees, it must be accepted by them as feasible and likely to result in their reasonable needs being met.

Sense of higher purpose

Twenty-first century HR models start with the premise that work should be a ‘pilgrimage of identity’ (to use a lovely expression coined by author David Whyte) rather than a necessary evil. If we want our people to express a firm persuasion in their work we must start with this idea and create a perennial conversation about how the workplace can enrich and enliven rather than enervate. The ideas that flow from this conversation then become core elements of the business model.

Going beyond ‘work-life balance’

The new HR models recognise that people cannot, and do not, park their needs at the door when they come to work and that the idea of work-life balance (where most needs are met outside the workplace) is primitive and outdated. For work to be a triumph of existence the workplace must provide the opportunity for individuals to satisfy many, if not most, of their deficit motivation and self-actualising needs.

This may sound esoteric but it is, in fact, intensely practical. If we want to release and utilise the energy of our people we must tap it at the wellspring of needs. When we do this, a new type of HR contract emerges where accountability for results is a natural outcome of the way the organisation works rather than a forced outcome.

Satisfying deficit motivation needs is about meeting, in many different ways, the need for safety and security, belonging and esteem. Meeting higher needs such as the need for truth, beauty, aliveness, wholeness, and meaning has not been a traditional focus for most businesses but is becoming a source of real advantage for leading companies.

Choosing attitudes

The new HR models understand how important attitude is. Attitude creates disposition; disposition creates behaviour and behaviour drives outcomes. Attitude is a choice and good choices can be taught, cultivated and re-enforced. This starts at the top and it is very infectious. When we choose our attitude (as opposed to simply falling into an attitude based on habit), the common result is productivity, playfulness, service and care.

Having honest conversations

When we are transparent, reasonable, and honest the organisation can develop relationships based on trust. When trust is established, it is possible to have the courageous conversations that are so necessary to a vibrant, successful community.

Creating a high quality workplace

The workplace has both classical and romantic dimensions. The former is critically important to order, control and efficiency. The latter shapes creativity. A workplace that is rich in classic quality is a best-practice one that makes good use of information and has a sound strategy, is rigorous in the way that it makes decisions, respects the good traditions of the business, has good quality assets, and is technically proficient.

A workplace that is rich in romantic quality seeks to have a dialogue with its unknown future, is willing to experiment, welcomes behaviour that moves it closer to its ‘cutting edge’, and demonstrates a love of design and beauty in the physical working environment.

If it is to be successful, Qantas needs a renaissance in its understanding of, and approach to, its workforce of 31,000 souls; a renaissance that breaks from the old twentieth century mindset that is characterising current behaviour. That renaissance needs to start now and be driven from the top. It must start with a clear and comprehensive picture of the nature of the new relationship Qantas will have with its staff and of the barriers to achieving it.

Christopher Tipler is a Melbourne-based management advisor and author of Corpus RIOS – The how and what of business strategy. His web site corpusrios.com (http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/www.corpusrios.com) contains more material on this and related topics.

[TIMA9X]

Police squad keeps tabs on Qantas after alleged deah threats against executives typo "death" but it is only The Telegraph



Police squad keeps tabs on Qantas after alleged deah threats against executives | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/police-squad-keeps-tabs-on-qantas-after-alleged-deah-threats-against-executives/story-e6freuzr-1226160682166) Daily Telegraph 7.10.11.





A POLICE strike force will investigate death threats and property damage to Qantas executives after a new threat was levelled against the airline's boss Alan Joyce. Police will provide mobile patrols of the homes of senior management who had been threatened or were deemed a high risk of being targeted.
and the SMH version 6.10.11 same day/time

Qantas boss target of more death threats




THE decision by Qantas boss Alan Joyce to go public about death threats this week seems to have left at least one of the perpetrators undeterred.
Just hours after the first media coverage, at around 5pm on Wednesday, another threatening email landed in Mr Joyce's inbox.
The Herald understands the tag read ''death threats'' and the brief but unambiguous text was along the lines of: ''I'm going to get you.'' my bold


Read more: Qantas boss target of more death threats (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-boss-target-of-more-death-threats-20111006-1lbs3.html#ixzz1a0mEMXD6)

Two versions of the same story which in my view was generated by a press release from Qantas. Interesting to see the Australian did not run with it as a main headline, only this regarding the called off TWU action set for Friday.

Qantas strikes called off 'too late' for passengers | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-strikes-called-off-too-late-for-passengers/story-e6frg95x-1226160654676)
QANTAS'S battles with the unions will temporarily simmer, with the Transport Workers Union calling off today's strikes and flight attendants reaching an agreement over pay and conditions. But the airline said the union's decision has come to late and 5700 passengers would be affected by cancellations and delayed flights.
The TWU yesterday called off the two-hour strike action planned for this afternoon, as a "gesture of good faith" to bring Qantas to the negotiating table.
As I said before, it appears the management want to keep this sort of stuff running right up until the AGM as they see some kind of value in it. As SP says don't fall for their traps and remain focused

[stubby jumbo]

The SMH is plugging its "feature" in the News Review section tomorrow:

ALAN JOYCE ON BATTLING CANCER,DEALING WITH THREATS AND BEING A MATHEMATICS PRODIGY

More contrived pap , scripted by the Qantas Spin team who are stage managing this fiasco like a 6 year old's birthday party at Macca's.

Can't wait for tomorrow.:hmm:

NB: the language has now move on from DEATH THREATS to just plain old everyday THREATS. (nice one Livvie......that deserve's a Latte- brilliant !!)

[teresa green]

This whole thing is becoming unbelievable. Here we have Virgin in their white hanger, heading towards a aircraft with someone dressing you on the way, all happy little vegemites, and then switch to CX where we can watch a nice young chap taking his flying lessons and finishes up a nice older chap on the deck of heavy metal. All happy feel good stuff that works with the general public. Then we have QF, there we have the management and staff basically beating the crap out of each other on the tarmac. Charming. Yes, the national carrier, the same one that served with distinction in WW2 and Vietnam, that flew 700 traumatised Dawinians out of danger after Cyclone Tracy, that went straight to Bali to get burnt and badly hurt young Australians to Australian hospitals for urgent care, and then did it all again the second terrorist attack. What happened to that Qantas? In all my years in aviation I never thought I would see QF in such a bloody mess. We mourned the loss of so many good airlines in my time TAA, Ansett, East West, Kendall, and the list goes on, and thru it all QF stood solid and indestructable until..... Dixon. And the rest as they say is history. Well its in your hands now, those who have worked and gave their all for such a great company, can only stand by and watch and hope that QF survives, for Australia and QF are joined at the hip, one without the other is unthinkable.:{

[Worrals in the wilds]

Well its in your hands now, those who have worked and gave their all for such a great company, can only stand by and watch and hope that QF survives, for Australia and QF are joined at the hip, one without the other is unthinkable.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif

I believe the Board are counting on that.

Like Bonds (offshored production, 'cause Aussie process workers are entitled to all that annoying costly stuff like OH&S and superannuation), like Golden Circle (owned by Heinz and not even Australian Grown anymore, just ask the beetroot guys) like Vegemite (owned by Kraft, even though the product's a banned import in the US), like Arnott's (owned by Campbell Soup, which is why the Ginger Nuts are a shadow of their former selves), like Holden (owned by General Motors, who at least had the decency to change the name to GMH), like Bundaberg Rum (owned by the UK's Diageo, which specialises in obtaining nationalistic brands like Cuevo, Irish Cream and Bundy and flag waving the crap out of them :yuk:).

All Orstrayan companies, just ask the average dude on the street. In truth they're about as Australian as Bill Gates, but that doesn't stop them waving the frigging flag when it comes to advertising. These Great Australian Names are now nothing more than shells kept for marketing purposes, because no-one's going to buy Heinz pineapple or Jak Li How singlets. Funnily enough, the true Aussie companies like WesFarmers, Coles Myer and Westfield are the ones we love to hate. Maybe because they tell the truth and act like the hardarses they are, rather than pretending to be Aussies for advertising purporses while being bankrolled by multinationals.

IMHO, that's what the Qantas Board want. We're Australian, really. Didn't you see the 'WTF are they advertising' ads? Believe us, you fools. That's right, you, Customer. Fool! Now where's my fat pay cheque? Qantas; the Australian Airline. Just don't expect to see too many Australians working there, or actually working for Qantas (as opposed to the Q Slaves GHS subcontractor). That would be far too expensive and might cut into our $500m profit.

[TIMA9X]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-e1NwcSF00aE/To8sZWPDwKI/AAAAAAAAACA/kEvO26vSIyo/s800/same-old-spirit2.jpg

Well its in your hands now, those who have worked and gave their all for such a great company, can only stand by and watch and hope that QF survives, for Australia and QF are joined at the hip, one without the other is unthinkable.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif
I believe the Board are counting on that. and

Like Bonds (offshored production, 'cause Aussie process workers are entitled to all that annoying costly stuff like OH&S and superannuation)Yeah Worrals I agree, and Qantas did have Margaret Jackson until the failed APA bid... (Now over at Bonds/Pacific Brands)

Qantas bid crash lands at last minute - Business - Business - theage.com.au (http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/qantas-bid-crash-lands-at-last-minute/2007/05/04/1177788399601.html)


In its statement last night, APA said it "wishes Qantas every success for the future".
The reverberations of the shock result will be felt at Qantas headquarters where the positions of chairman Margaret Jackson, chief executive Geoff Dixon and the entire Qantas board are now in doubt.
Mrs Jackson and Mr Dixon both supported the deal when it was launched in December and repeatedly urged shareholders to accept the offer.
In its statement, APA paid tribute to Mrs Jackson and the Qantas board.
"Qantas is an outstanding organisation with a first rate management team and board," it said. "APA understands that the bid process has been challenging for many of those involved and thanks Qantas management, board and employees for their professionalism during the process."
Qantas shareholders had until 7pm last night to accept APA's $5.45-a-share offer.
The consortium spent yesterday making desperate phone calls to get acceptances over the crucial 50 per cent level.
Jetstar chief executive Alan Joyce was one of the latecomers, selling his 67,000 Qantas shares but it was not enough.
Yesterday morning the Macquarie-led consortium had 36 per cent of acceptances, up 3 per cent on its last update.
However hedge funds and institutional investors failed to come to the party.
Champers or valium: the Margaret Jackson dilemma | Crikey (http://www.crikey.com.au/2007/10/19/champers-or-valium-the-margaret-jackson-dilemma/)
The directors of a company are appointed and very generously paid (on an hourly basis) to act in the interests of the company (which has generally been held to mean the interests of the shareholders). However, during their enthusiastic endorsement of the private equity bid, Jackson, and her fellow directors, didn’t appear to be overly concerned about Qantas shareholders.
As The SMH’s leading business writer, Kate Askew, noted:…from the moment the image of a beaming Jackson locked in an embrace with the key proponents of the private equity grab for Qantas was flashed across television screens and newspapers last December, the same question was asked: in whose interest was the chairman of Qantas acting?
The cast, crew and the plot appear to be pretty much the same, nothing has changed much since 2007...except the share price. :eek:

[simsalabim]

Have aread of this SMH article .The predictable puff piece from the complicit mainstream media looking after their big end of town buddies when they are in trouble.Folks ,these media whores are part of the problem not the solution.


Couldn't help himself could he?

The well-publicised pay jump to $5 million, he argues, is not all it seems when share vesting mechanisms are taken into account. The take home element is ''just over'' $3 million. ''Per hours worked, I am not the highest paid employee in the company, the A380 captains are''.
Staying the course (http://www.smh.com.au/national/staying-the-course-20111007-1ldbd.html#ixzz1a8caZsUr)

[wishiwasupthere]

Given



''I really do want to focus on this for as long as the board and shareholders are comfortable with me doing it. Given my age, hopefully that's for a long time.''



and



''Per hours worked, I am not the highest paid employee in the company, the A380 captains are."




I think I just vomitted in my mouth a little bit.

[BombsGone]

''Per hours worked, I am not the highest paid employee in the company, the A380 captains are."

Is he trying to piss off his staff, or does it just come naturally to him? This could only be true if he only counts flying hours as time worked. True or not he appears not to want to engage with staff.

Nasty piece of work.

[PW1830]

Using that dodgy calculator again - matematical genius shouldn't need one to prove those figures slightly improbable.

[simsalabim]

What about this spin ?


He wants to slash 1000 jobs from the mainland, and venture into two new projects, one a low-cost offshoot based in Japan and another ''premium service'' based in south-east Asia.


The mainland???? Why not call it Australia? You know the place where Qantas was founded and the place it is supposed (according to the Qantas Sale Act) be based. Since when was it referred to as the mainland? Does this exclude Tasmania or something?

No we mustn't put "Australia" in the same sentence as "slash 1000 jobs from".
Too much negative connotation in that line.Wouldn't fit in with the "What a great little new Aussie is Alan Joyce" tone of this paid QF management advertisement would it.


Read more: Staying the course (http://www.smh.com.au/national/staying-the-course-20111007-1ldbd.html#ixzz1a8o8FUTf)

[1a sound asleep]

''Per hours worked, I am not the highest paid employee in the company, the A380 captains are."

Is he trying to piss off his staff, or does it just come naturally to him? This could only be true if he only counts flying hours as time worked. True or not he appears not to want to engage with staff.

Nasty piece of work.

Talk about waving a red flag to a bull. He's counting flight time only. Include hours spent away from home base, meetings, briefing, appointments for medicals, time spent studying etc and his claim is just more Qantas lies

AJ is doing nothing to resolve matters - very clear he is trying to inflame the situation. He is inflaming staff, customers, shareholders and pretty much every Australian. So remind me again who is AJ acting/working for??

[Abbreviation Slic]

$3m/year = $57,692/week, not allowing for any annual leave.
At 84 hours worked per week (7 x 12 hours days), AJ's hourly rate = $686.

A380 captain hourly rate is something like $255?

[simsalabim]

.........it emerges that the move to a ''more Mediterranean diet'' came after a prostatectomy earlier this year. It was picked up almost by chance. A senior executive had left the company suffering what everyone thought was stress and was diagnosed with a thyroid problem. Joyce decided to launch a program of health checks for all senior staff, volunteering himself first.




What about a program of health checks for all staff ? Are they not deserving of a program of heath checks ? Nope . This is reserved for senior executives only, starting with himself.

Read more: Staying the course (http://www.smh.com.au/national/staying-the-course-20111007-1ldbd.html#ixzz1a8soAyIN)

[ohallen]

Not only has he deliberately singled out the A380 drivers in a very dubious manner, but he seems to have flagged his intentions for the next battle if his form is any guide.

A380's to Japan, Uzbekistan, Russia, NZ, Singapore could be anywhere really.

This will kill off Int mainline completely.

Can someone please deal with him and this Board PLEASE.

[simsalabim]

"With a clear bill of health, he has since become an avid champion of early screening, throwing the might of Qantas behind the prostate cancer foundation.
Ordinary mortals might pause and take stock after a near miss like that, but the effect on Joyce has been the opposite"

No! Alan is not a "ordinary mortal" . He is a superman according to the puff piece journalist. How could we be foolish enough to think he was mere mortal ?


Read more: Staying the course (http://www.smh.com.au/national/staying-the-course-20111007-1ldbd.html#ixzz1a8vrKSW3)

[ANCDU]

And he wonders why he gets threatening email....:ugh:. How can fools like this become the CEO of our once great airline. I think a employee mutiny is in order!

[ozbiggles]

Well its only fair the A380 Captains earn more per hour than Joyce.
They actually care what happens to Qantas and its passengers...

[Nassensteins Monster]

'Per hours worked, I am not the highest paid employee in the company, the A380 captains are''.Quite the candid admission. Perhaps our captains of industry could learn quite alot from our captains of aircraft. They walk the walk on the important stuff.

A pilot as CEO? Well, they know about leadership. The aircraft and crew go where the captain directs it. Willingly. There's no "Do as I say, not as I do" on the flight deck. Captains lead by example, they take the passengers and crew with them, and they arrive at the destination together. Why? Because they have utmost faith in the captain's skill, experience and decision-making capabilities. Captains take responsibility for their errors and actively work to share those errors to prevent others making them. They don't allow mistakes to keep repeating every decade or so as a new tranche of F/Os come through with the latest theory from flight school - one that differs little from the tried and failed theory of a decade past. The fundamental laws of aerodynamics do not change, and the Civil Aviation Regulations are written in the blood and tears of hard-earned experience. There is no getting clever with lift, thrust, weight and drag, weather, pay-loads vs fuel-loads or alternate airports. The same is true of good leadership and business management. Forget all the seasonal, trendy, frilly add-ons. The core attributes of successful and respected leaders have been constant since the time of the Pharaohs. These attributes are found in every captain.

A pilot as head of "People"? Their stock-in-trade is crew resource management. Think about that phrase for a moment: "CREW" implies teamwork; "RESOURCE" implies that every single member of the crew has something important to add; "MANAGEMENT" implies making and acting on decisions to best ulitise the resources each crew member provides, not writing them off as rogues and kamikazes. Someone misbehaves? Hit them with a truncheon with due force to subdue the threat, handcuff them to the seat and hand them to the Police on arrival. No matter who the offender is. "Officer, this man's actions (insert appropriate choice from below here) endangered the aircraft".
Choices: cartel behaviour; erosion of shareholder value; failing to pay a dividend; poor fleet, route and timing decisions; failed outsourcing initiatives; giving away routes; creative accountancy etc etc etc.

A pilot as CFO? When a pilot works out his weight and balance and fuel required for a mission, there is only one correct answer. A pilot gets paid when he safely lands the aircraft. The passengers safely land with him. He doesn't operate in a little module called "underlying profits" that is completely detached from the reality of the main hull called "shareholder returns" - where his bonus is based on safely landing the little module and to hell with the flaming wreck of the main hull.

And as far as adequate recompense, "per hours work" are weasel words. A captain is not a brickie. He is a highly trained, highly experienced individual who brings a helluva lot more to the equation than "hours worked". A captain has to make his decisions in the blink of an eye at 30,000 feet and 1,000km/h in a pressurised metal and composite tube consisting of over a million sub-components assembled into numerous systems operating in harmony to keep said tube in the air and his passengers and crew alive. He usually makes his decisions in consultation with one other person of lesser experience but a part of the team all the same. And he has to make the RIGHT decision EVERY time. Where do you get to make your decisions? A plush office surrounded by "the best"(:yuk:) advice of your executive team. You get to go home and sleep on your decisions. Your poor decisions don't result in your own death and those of your 400 or more passengers and crew. The consequences for you are you receive $3 million instead of $5.1 million. You'll merely be forgotten as a mediocrity or remembered for the wrong reasons if your decisions are particularly poor. Poor you if you f*ck it up.

We the staff will follow the right leader to hell and back. A leader who shows respect, compassion and understanding for his people. A leader who recognises and takes responsibility for the poor decisions of the past, even if those decisions were not his own. A leader who acts in the best interests of ALL employees. A leader with the force of personality to convince others of the rightness of his decisions, and to bring others with him on the journey. A leader who treats all people equally, not based on their position in the hierarchy. Guaranteed if I drove drunk on the tarmac and racially abused a colleague, or bashed on my manager's door late at night to hand-deliver the latest notice of PIA... I'd be out on my ear. Not in this man's Qantas.

[hewlett]

Nice work NM!

[simsalabim]

"Joyce....eats sparingly: calamari and John Dory fillets, no bread, no potatoes, no wine. When the strawberries turn up, he holds the cream, and the meal is finished with herbal tea.....On further prodding, it emerges that the move to a ''more Mediterranean diet'' came after a prostatectomy earlier this year"


This doesn't look like part of any Mediterranean Diet to me .






http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff415/shawtodds/cake.jpg

[ohallen]

" as long as the board and shareholders are comfortable with me doing it"

Well then, that is easily fixed isn't it.

Lets call time please and let him go back to wherever he came from.

Any CEO who wants to alienate his entire workforce has no place in any company.

It beggars belief that this folly continues in the way that it is unfolding and his half veiled inferences about A380 Captains shows there is no end in sight to the delusion.

[Ngineer]

Using that dodgy calculator again - matematical genius shouldn't need one to prove those figures slightly improbable.


I wonder who the brainchild was behind this latest publicity stunt.

I think that they know public support for the CEO is dire and want to improve his image before the upcoming AGM.

[bandit2]

''At an early stage, she showed me the power of the mentor, and I have been lucky enough all the way through my career to have that, and I'm doing it myself now.''
From the SMH, you've got to be joking aren't you!

[The The]

If his salary is $3m per year, on an A380 Capt hourly rate he works 30hrs per day, 365 days per year.

If his salary is $5m per year, it's 50hrs per day.

The guy is "amazing".

[schlong hauler]

There are a lot of QF pilots that are familiar with the story of why AJ decided to get a PSA check. Not even a call to say thank you for convincing him to get a check done. Can't say any more that that!

[CaptCloudbuster]

Well may QF Unions be accused of following the North American Union playbook by the Spokesmodel....

Better than the 3rd Reichs Propaganda (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie) playbook

[Ka.Boom]

Joyce is merely the monkey in this scenario.Clifford is the organ grinder calling the shots.The reason(and its been said before)Joyce got the big gig is because he is compliant and grateful.When this is all over he goes back home with a bucket full of loot and away from the ire of the Australian population and Qantas employees.
Dixon,Clifford and Oldmeadow play a very long game.Even if they leave or curl up their toes the game is in embedded into corporate DNA.Indifferent government and a media made compliant by advertising dollars all contribute to the perpetuation of the grand plan.The current negotiations are a minor nuisance to these Machiavellian morons

[SpannerTwister]

There are a lot of QF pilots that are familiar with the story of why AJ decided to get a PSA check. Not even a call to say thank you for convincing him to get a check done. Can't say any more that that!

There's also a few of us who aren't pilots that know why he got his PSA check !!

M.M right out and asked me about my PSA, I was able to tell him that I knew what mine was, and made sure it was checked regularly.

:ok: :ok: :ok:

ST

[Wally Mk2]

Okay let me put this together so a 6 yr old can understand it. The Leprechaun reckons the A380 skippers get more than him, okay fair enuf he has a right to be silly as a wheel!. Well that being the case the way I see it whomever earns the most in a Co ought to be at the top leading the way so it's about time the QF board of ***** (Insert words that suit yr distaste for same) put an A380 skipper at the helm! Now wouldn't that be a hoot...........someone whom knows aviation to run an aviation Co............nah......'tell him he's dreamin'!:ugh:

As for getting rid of a 1000 employees....might as well tell 'em all they have cancer, same thing, killing them in a different way!


Wmk2

[SOPS]

Excuse me if I feel sick:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[teresa green]

But how to get rid of Joyce and Clifford? They only thing you people have left is a mass walkout from EVERY section. Close the airline down, the Govt. (for want of a better word) will then step in and every thinking Aussie will then realise something is terribly wrong with management, and terribly wrong in the company. A huge decision I know, but obviously you all cannot go on like this, you can detect the distress in some of these blogs as your livelihood's are being threatened. All the strikes and pilots PA's are destabilizing for the company, which might in the long turn finally bring Joyce down, but at what cost to the rest of you? It needs to be quick and clean, and it needs somebody with the balls to lead the company, ALL of the company in revolt. I know it all sounds far fetched, but what is your alternative. The bloke is taking the company to the wall, knowingly taking the company to the wall, whether it is to bring it to its knees, fire the lot of you and bring you back on JQ contracts or what, I have not a clue. We all know Asia, we all know how the Asians feel about us, Japan tolerates, Indonesia loathes, Philippines needs our support, Thailand needs our tourists, China does not need help from anyone. Do they need our airline, well, no. Asia is littered with the bones of companies who thought that the Asians could be bought, it would all be money for jam, and why Joyce is going down this path is a absolute mystery, or absolute stupidity. Look at TE, going gangbusters, CX ditto, happy and thriving in their own little patch, and here is QF taking on the world, madness. Something has got to give here, sooner or later, and far better that is be managment, and have somebody who knows what they are doing take over, be it Norris or whoever, lets hope its sooner.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Teresa,

They only thing you people have left is a mass walkout from EVERY section

That kind of technique has been used before and it didn't work, what year was it again ?. The company does not care if you resign, you will be replaced, you will lose your family home and not be able to feed your children, F^&K that.

The path being followed is the correct one, a war on share prices, profitability and public perception, hit them in their KPI's and company profitability.

Perhaps AIPA should launch a defamation claim for telling lies that would be damaging, i.e. A380 Captains earn more than "him", its on public record and you'd be going after him personally. By saying such things, public perception could be changed, damage done................

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Perhaps AIPA should launch a defamation claim for telling lies that would be damaging, i.e. A380 Captains earn more than "him", its on public record and you'd be going after him personally. By saying such things, public perception could be changed, damage done................



I second that.

[AlphaLord]

Do it,somebody,do it.
What Joyce is getting away with is totally unacceptable by any standard

[breakfastburrito]

No, you people have the faulty calculator. Mr Joyce received a fixed pay of $2.04 million and $2.2 short term incentives according to the SMH (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-chiefs-pay-rise-sparks-anger-20110907-1jx7b.html). Fixed pay and incentives are not the same thing!

Therefore $2,040,000 / 5,840 hours (16 hours x 365 days) = $349 hourly rate. Incentives are at risk! - you can't take out a mortgage on incentives. Incentives are not pay, they are not "bankable". Repeat after me incentives are not pay.

When you factor in overtime,training, , superannuation, annual/sick/long service leave, allowances, sundries that's what an A380 Captain gets (standard rate = $269.16 per credit hour) per stick hour.

When are you people going to learn to compare apples with apples.

</s>

[ejectx3]

So Joyce still gets paid more even by your logic

[ohallen]

Mass walk out is not the answer because it will play into their hands.

There are issues that are coming up that deserve a fair serve back and which are not getting oxygen, while the company gets all the PR they want at no cost to them.

There are ways to pour petrol on these fires without risking jobs eg media council, asic, accc etc etc and for the life of me I dont understand why no one is playing as smart as the other guys and merely hold the central line while they keep dictating.

I don't see any consequences for the company as yet for anything they have done other than a pissed off workforce which is what they want. If you think otherwise, I think you are dreaming.

The AGM is another matter and lets hope someone gets that strategy right and I cannot wait for the company to create a diversion 1 or 2 days out which I am willing to put money on.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Burito,

Bonus or base wage is irrelevant, it is still your taxable income.

Yes, you are correct in saying the bank will not generally give a loan on a bonus.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Thanks for pointing out our misconceptions Brekky B...

Poor AJ slaving away for a paltry 2.04 million, 16 hrs per day every day of the year.

I seem to recall JB admitting that during the APA fiasco no one was actually running QF for 6 months..... Forgive me for not accepting our Dear Leaders assertion at face value.

Now imagine Captain Richard Champion de Crespigny for a moment following the inspirational lead provided by our "mentors" mentor by falling asleep at the wheel...

[Ngineer]

Sitting at the Rockpool, talking about his exquisite quisine (that most Aussie's could only imagine), then claiming some staff get paid more than him?? :rolleyes:

[breakfastburrito]

I thought the </s>(</sarcasim>) tag might have been a hint . Next time I'll have to be more explicit!

[Ngineer]

Sorry BB, didn't read your post. Saw every one else's though.:E

[peuce]

The way I see it ....

If the sentiments shown in PPRUNE are representative of the majority of Qantas employees, then it's fair to say that ... Qantas Staff are well and truly pissed off

With Qantas' foray into Asia, the company will require a fair amount of employee engagement to get through the inevitable change, hurdles and hard times. Obviously, this will be in short supply, considering the general staff sentiment.

Qantas will therefore need to either ... change their strategy and work towards placating their Staff and rebuild morale; or, employ local Asian staff and "beat them into engagement".

The alternative scenario is .... failure.

The bottom line is ... Qantas NEED their staff onside.

IF they realise this ... then it's a good bargaining tool for the Staff. If they don't, then it's the alternative scenario for you all.

P.S. I just can't see the leopard changing its spots ... under the current regime.

[ANCDU]

Things won't change at Qantas, there is no way the airline will improve until AJ and the upper management take some kind of ownership for the so called failures of the international arm of the airline, and start investing in the (Qantas) brand again.

This recent interview just goes to show how out of touch Joyce is with his front line staff, it's a situation that could be so easily resolved. For the last 5 years Qantas has run on the good will of it's staff and he needs to realise this is fast running out. For an airline to take 3 days to recover from a weather event should have warning bells sounding in Coward St, but they are spending too much money doing up their offices to hear them.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

BB,

You got me :).

[lame1]

While Qantas and Singapore Airlines launch into the sector, Kingfisher has released plans to phase out its no frills class of service.

With its full service airline, Kingfisher Class attracting higher yield and seat factors, the carrier said it will rearrange its aircraft to cater to growing demand, which will consequently lead to the termination of low-cost airline, Kingfisher Red.

[teresa green]

Shed Dog Tosser, I was one of those who were tossed off their aircraft on THAT day, by some little TAA grade one clerk in CBR. (had I known what was ahead I would have kicked the little bugger down the stairs, it would have been worth it). But had the rest of TAA walked with us (we never asked for that) it would have had probably a different ending. The point I was making is to replace Pilots, Engineers, Ground Staff, Ramp staff, cargo staff et al is almost impossible. The training would take time, and bringing in foreign pilots and engineers and getting them work visa's etc would bring on logistical nightmares, though of course there would still be the :mad: but probably not enough to keep the airline running. Add to that CASA requirements re foreign Pilots and Engineers would only add to the misery. Nope, you people are in the LH seat if led properly. I am not a union happy, lets go get em sort of bloke, but from where I am sitting you people are on the slow boat to nowhere with this bloke, and it would appear its going to be a JQ contract or nothing for many of you. How long do you seriously think management would hold out, with the govt. nagging behind, not long. I hope it never comes to that, but perhaps eventually the employees simply will have no choice, if they want to save this great company and their jobs.:{

[manfred]

Some interesting quotes from this Herald Sun Article, I wonder what the unions will have to say:

Joyce looks to the future with optimism | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/joyce-looks-to-the-future-with-optimism/story-fn7j19iv-1226162476724)


"The issue is not pay, the biggest issue is the efficiencies we get out of the pilots is only about 480 hours a year - that's interesting work," he notes.

Mr Joyce says if Qantas pilot salaries had to be paid to Jetstar Asia, where there's no shortage of applicants to be captains on $200,000 a year, it would make it uncompetitive, with no jobs for anyone.


He compares aircraft to cars, perhaps thinking of his own first car, a Datsun Cherry, which continually broke down unless he kept changing the oil, topping up the water and paying mechanics to fix it.


Now, cars are far more reliable, computerised to help mechanics. Mr Joyce argues modern aircraft are the same.


It argues the traditional "walk around" by a licensed engineer, a multi-point sight check on each aircraft after each flight, is no longer needed for at least half its fleet.

[dragon man]

So, A380 Captains only do 480 hours a year. Is that the average including management and training Captains? Who would operate a fleet of aircraft as small as Qantas does remember the classic you had 4 of those. If you have enough aircraft and therefore frequency you get the hours from the pilots. In the days of 30 400s we were all doing 800/900 hours per year. We can do it Alan. Once again you try to shift the blame from the idiot management to the staff. Piss off before there is nothing left.

[Worrals in the wilds]

What did he expect with a Datsun?
I don't see how the car analogy works, because modern cars are a lot more complicated to work on than the old beasts. My first car was an 80s model and I did most of the servicing myself. On the rare occasion that it needed a mechanic it got taken to a classic small garage which was pretty much three grease monkeys, a hoist, rattle gun and a toolkit.

On the other hand, I wouldn't touch a thing on my spoofy new car. Even if I knew where to start, the risk of stuffing up one of the high tech new systems is too great. It gets taken to a workshop that looks like something out of the space program where they plug in computers and all sorts of stuff.

As for not going wrong, everyone's got at least one war story about how the car computer wigged out and stalled the thing, or the fancy gearbox decided that second gear's the best option at 110 kmph, the de-ice engaged in the middle of summer, the air bag system chucked a tanty... the list goes on. And you can still get all the blown hoses and leaky stuff that the old bangers suffered with. :ouch:

You can barely change a battery on a new car without risking the computer...so it has to go to a mechanic. Therefore, you need more service people, not fewer. Maybe the ALAEA should use the same analogy...:}

That said, neither Joyce nor the rest of the Qantas Board seem like FYI car types...:hmm:

[standard]

This guy really is a knob!!!

The reason that a lot of QF guys are doing less than their 900 or 1000 hrs per year is because the routes flown have been cut in half and farmed off to other entities, for example.

1. 767 freighter work is now done by EFA
2. Trans Tasman flying is now done by Jetconnect
3. A great number (and i am sure someone has the exact figures) of routes have been cannibalized by Jetstar

QF has made the mainline pilots look inefficient because THEY have given the work to other entities.

I can't remember the last time i heard about a modern car carrying 455 passengers have an engine failure that removed a great number of systems requiring you to park it at 350kmh!

[Nassensteins Monster]

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[bandit2]

Yesterday afternoon we had the TV going from approx 6pm till approx 10pm. I`m guessing between 8-10 Jetstar ads. Qantas ads `0`.Wonder who`s paying for those ads. I am pleased to know that they`ve put ads in this mornings papers to apologize for this afternoons disruptions though. Not happy to hear QF are blaming part of $200 million International loss, is due to outdated work practices by the Unions, though.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Are international engineering 'Union' work practices any different from domestic engineering 'Union' work practices? I thought they were pretty much the same, and domestic isn't going broke by a long shot.

[Capt Kremin]

Joyce is worried about the traction that the unions, particularly AIPA have gained with the public so far.

To negate this they are attempting to create a diversion from the theme of "Qantas pilots for Qantas aircraft" to "Qantas unions are unproductive and overpaid".

The dodgy mathematics they use to suggest that A380 captains are paid more per hour than he is will stand because:

1. No journalist is fully briefed on the contract or the circumstances that have contributed to why the average A380 Capt probably is only flying 480 hours a year at the moment; and

2. AIPA must stay on message and not allow itself to be suckered in to making this into a pay dispute.

My advice is to let it go. Think of it as yet another example of Qantas managements cynicism and contempt towards it's employees and the public.

Turn the anger into resolve. These announcements are carefully timed. AIPA is finishing up the conciliation talks in FWA this week. My bet is that no progress has been made and shortly pilots will be asked to do more than wear colorful ties and make PA's.

Qantas knows this, hence the rhetoric directed at the employees currently making the least dent in the bottom line.

[hewlett]

The Domestic operation won't go "broke" until they have finished with the International branch, then the bull#$&* will start all over again. And no such thing as an International and Domestic "union" arm, all united in a common cause, saving something for your kids to be proud of.

[hotnhigh]

Another button missing on Alan's dodgy calculator seems to be the one that included the figure for the 380 grounding and its effect on hours flown.

[Keg]

These latest tactics by Joyce et al regarding Qantas A380 pay rates, etc show the moral compass at Qantas and the liberties they take with the truth, spin, etc, in order to 'win'. It also serves to harden my resolve as I certainly gain a clearer insight into the immoral behaviour exhibited by those running the company. Whilst previously demonstrated behaviour over the last few years gave clear indications as to the manner in which they do business (freight cartels, APA bid, Jackson, Dixon, etc) this just clarifies and cements that nothing has changed at the top. They have no desire to create a win/ win situation through negotiation. They are only interested in win/ lose to their benefit.

In some respects, behaviour like AJ exhibits plays nicely into AIPA's hands. He is in fact ensuring that no pilot is unclear as to what Qantas will do to us if we let them. It is now impossible to be naive as to the lengths that Qantas will go to. It's united pilots more than I've ever previously seen.

[Dixons Millions]

Keg, you hit the nail on the head with your last post. It is us or them. We win, we save Qantas, we lose, they get rich and Qantas ceases to exist in a few short years. End of story....

[hotnhigh]

And what's the hourly rate for AJ and LC spokespeople?
Qantas engineers cancel strike action | Airline Industrial Dispute (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/no-relief-for-qantas-passengers-as-strike-cancelled-20111010-1lgtd.html)
Olivia Wirth, Luke Enright, Justin Kelly.
Any others? Based on their airtime, I'd hate to imagine the "Joyce Hour Calculator" fee is per hour.
Good news though, it's all billed to Qantas. Just like Jetstar senior executive wages.

[dragon man]

If the unions are colluding as per the Qantas spokesman and the advertisements then they are acting illegally. I believe that this is not the case so therefore i believe the unions involved should get legal advise re libel and put in a complaint to the media watchdog re incorrect/misleading advertising. The bullsh-t from this mob is unbelievable.

[ampclamp]

colluding? Like some kind of cartel? who'd do that?

[dragon man]

You are correct. Who would do that Qantas!!! I wonder if they could be fined yet again. Would make my Xmas and top off 2011 nicely.

[teresa green]

Shared a beer last night with a AN bloke (pilot) and his brother. The brother was a executive with AN, and what he told me last night about Joyce, well, it all figures. In AN he was simply a numbers man, a lCC man from GB, but with limited ability, and gave no indication he had the ability to run the national carrier. Well no surprises there. This bloke was astonished that Dixon gave him any creed at all, and wonders WTF Dixon was thinking. He had a totally different opinion about Borgetti, and whilst stating the bloke could be a little :mad:, he really knows his stuff, and would have had QF humming along by now. This of course adds to the frustration, and listening to this bloke, and his story about AN and the what the ar#eho%#s did to it, including Joyce, it made me feel more than uneasy. This fella is now working with CX, and could not be happier, with the way the airline is going and the CEO he works under. Very interesting to hear from a bloke that was right up there, his despair about AN and what he would and could do with QF. The one good thing he did say is don't give up, there are others circling, good men who know their stuff, and as he said, leading QF is one of the best CEO jobs in the country, and one of the most prestigious, he gives Joyce three months at the most. Lets hope he is right.

[hotnhigh]

Olivia has just stated the pilots have undertaken strike action, during her press conference on abc news 24. WTF?:ugh::ugh:

[TIMA9X]

Olivia has just stated the pilots have undertaken strike action, during her press conference on abc news 24. WTF?

Yep, AIPA, take her on on this, she is out of line and must be held to account..
Pay rises: the new unlevel playing field (http://www.smh.com.au/business/pay-rises-the-new-unlevel-playing-field-20111010-1lgyk.html)Qantas engineers called off a planned strike (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/engineers-call-off-qantas-strike-20111010-1lgbj.html) for this afternoon across Australia, but other strikes by ground staff over the past few weeks have affected the airline's schedules and thousands of its passengers.

Another strike by customs officers is planned for this Thursday, following the Community and Public Sector Union's rejection of the federal government's offer of a 9 per cent pay rise over three years.
Michael Rafferty, a senior research fellow at the University of Sydney's Workplace Research Centre, said the disputes could signal a growing gap in the expectations of employers and their staff.
"The [Qantas staff] claim is only about 5 per cent and if you allow for some negotiations, that probably brings them to an outcome of 4 to 4.5 per cent - which is the cost of living," said Dr Rafferty.
"And yet that is being quite strenuously resisted by the employers.
"[The] issue is that the employers are saying that we are going to privilege the profit not just at the expense of wage rises but even the cost of living, and that could be quite a significant change in the industrial relations landscape if that's the case."


Read more: Pay rises: the new unlevel playing field (http://www.smh.com.au/business/pay-rises-the-new-unlevel-playing-field-20111010-1lgyk.html#ixzz1aLxmhUtO)


The little game is up for all to see...

[MACH082]

Qantas engineers cancel today's planned strike but flight disruptions continue | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/qantas-engineers-cancel-strike-action/comments-e6frfq80-1226162996039)

Read the comments here! Bloody hell Australians are thick sometimes.

[Ngineer]

Also significant was the growing political rhetoric around individual workplace agreements from former Liberal Party politicians Peter Reith and Peter Costello, who have called on federal Opposition Leader Tony Abbott to support workplace reform, Dr Rafferty said.



Will workchoices make a comeback???

[denabol]

Sandilands' take on this is cruel, but funny.

Qantas condemns union for not striking as planned | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/10/10/qantas-strikes-go-weird-as-spokesperson-denounces-union-for-bringing-chaos-to-empty-terminal/)

[Dash1]

Olivia, when did the Qantas pilots take strike action during this industrial campaign? You lying ............!

[hotnhigh]

"Unfortunately, the engineers have decided to cancel their strike action."
Another Olivia special.:ugh: Anyone with a link or copy of the press conference today?

[Katoom]

To get rid of Joyce and Clifford (who, BTW is the real problem, and I speak from first-hand experience).

Buy shares and use their voting power.

Imagine if each employee bought on average 50k of QAN and all voted as a block? That's a sizeable chunk of influence where it counts.

[DutchRoll]

Olivia, when did the Qantas pilots take strike action during this industrial campaign? You lying ............!

Oh man. I've always been convinced that I'm going to hell when I die for various indiscretions committed when I was young, single and naive.

Now it appears I'll meet Olivia there. Though she'll be there for completely different reasons.

[TIMA9X]

RjvJC5PUZ3k

In this clip OW claims she didn't know anything about the action being called off... sure...

.

[packrat]

During one of her dissertations OW paused drew a breathe and gulped.
A student of body language will tell you that she is unsure,nervous and feeling the pressure.
The pronouncement about not knowing the strike was called off is a gaff of laughable proportions.
Another incompetent recalcitrant from the management moron menagerie.
Where do they find these people?
She should be given a job picking the fly ****t out of black pepper

[ejectx3]

Wait.....there's fly crap in black pepper now?

[Going Nowhere]

Didn't OW have a cry about finding out about the cancellation via a "Noooooz Release" ?

How else would you f$*%&ing find out? Sky writing? :ugh:

[TIMA9X]

by Going Nowhere, How else would you f$*%&ing find out? Sky writing?LOL classic and spot on..:ok:

[Angle of Attack]

Now talking about another 4 hour on friday, I will hazard a guess if Qantas does a reschedule they will call off again, the only one they won't is when Qantas calls their bluff and doesnt do any re scheduling, Qantas can't win either way!

[Captain Gidday]

How else would you f$*%&ing find out? Sky writing?

Now, now. Can't have any sky writing. That would be collusion between the unions. :*

[Dash1]

Is sky writing an approved method of industrial action notification to an employer? If not maybe the unions can seek an amendment to the FWA act. Love to be the Centre controller to give that clearance. Although that might be reported as collusion.

[Captain Gidday]

Nah. But the controller would be pinged for participating in a secondary boycott, probably.

[Ski Guru]

ejectx3, classic.

[Groaner]

Although that might be reported as collusion

Typo? How about "collision"?

[Super 64]

Could learn a thing or two from the French: Air France-KLM chief Pierre-Henri Gourgeon facing sack | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/breaking-news/air-france-klm-chief-pierre-henri-gourgeon-facing-sack/story-e6frg90f-1226168174229)

I also note they're in the RWC final!!

S64

[framer]

It's actually AJ's fault that we lost the rugby last night, he didn't give enough box seat tickets to the pollies and as a result we were under supported.

[Capt Kremin]

Fleet for sale as Qantas cuts flights (http://www.smh.com.au/business/fleet-for-sale-as-qantas-cuts-flights-20110403-1ct74.html)

So is the media incapable of checking ANY facts before they print a Qantas Press release?

[TIMA9X]

GvRndLJS8bM
.
Sort of backs up Krem's previous post



To be fair, GT says some pretty good stuff as well..

[Taildragger67]

Anyone able to supply the rego's of the "parked" aircraft?

I saw VH-TJF on the ABC News this evening and a quick Google search showed that it had been placed on the market for sale by 12 July 2011.

The same source also showed 763ER VH-OGE and 734 ZK-JTP for sale. Both from the same date and both by Qantas Airways Ltd, of course, rather than any entity from New Zealand for the latter... :hmm:

My thoughts being that it tends to add weight in favour of arguments that these "parked" airframes were due to be withdrawn anyway.

Maybe a smart journo will then be able to ask a question or two.

[Angle of Attack]

This is definitely a cover up this cancelling of flights because if anyone in the media was actually a journalist they would find that there are 1 - 2 new 737-800's coming into the mainline fleet a month for most of this year. I would say the total number of 737's is at worst the same number but probably a few extra airframes even after 4 being grounded. It is just a nice ploy to blame the engineers for something else. Meanwhile their 747's are having engine failures at an extraordinary rate because of a known problem which has a mod available to fix it....; Duty of Care???

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

hey Taildragger, can you please provide me any links you have found that show when aircraft were put up for sale?

[rmm]

There's at least 2 here, looks like they were advertised in July of this year.

737-400 For Sale or Lease on SpeedNews (http://www.speednews.com/EquipmentResults.aspx?Search=Aircraft&Aircraft=737&Type=-400)

[breakfastburrito]

2x 737-400 listed 12 July 2011
1 x 767-300ER listed 12 July 2011

(click to enlarge)
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/192/snapshot6o.th.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/snapshot6o.png/)

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7356/snapshot5p.th.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/snapshot5p.png/)

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/1256/snapshot3u.th.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/snapshot3u.png/)

[Fris B. Fairing]

Taildragger67

I'm told that TJF and TJO positioned to Avalon for storage on 17 Oct.

Rgds

[Taildragger67]

Steve,

rmm got in ahead of me, but that was where I saw them - speednews.com (http://www.speednews.com/EquipmentResults.aspx?Search=Aircraft&CatID=0&Category=-Select+Category-&Manufacturer=Boeing&Type=-400&Aircraft=737).

Also, 3 x 744s (-OJG, -OJH, -OJJ) are listed on planemart.com (http://www.planemart.com/FAA/Listings.asp?type=Commercial&typeMfr=BOEING&model=747-400) but there's no indication of when the listing went up - only when the airframes will be available (earliest being Sep '12).

Back to the 734s, MSN 24431 is VH-TJF and MSN 24441 is ZK-JTP. I also saw VH-TJO on the telly and tried to see if it is listed for sale anywhere by using its MSN (24440) but couldn't see it. It would however probably make sense, given its sequence in the line.

MSN 24531 on speednews is 763 VH-OGE is MSN 24531.

So all these cancellations - will they be quietly reversed following the incremental 73W deliveries? Anyone rostered onto any of the just-cancelled flight numbers in, say, a month or so?

What is the A330 delivery schedule compared to 767 retirements (as in, have they just 'grounded' a 767 only to have a new 330 rock up in the next few weeks)?

Anyone got any idea as to how close any of the 'grounded' airframes are to a C or D check? If so, the next question is, would such maint now normally be done in Aus, or overseas?


I'm not a spotter, rather I'm trying to see if a swifty is being pulled here, but I think I've out-anoraked myself today. :\

[Short_Circuit]

OGE is the next 767 to be up for sale,
OGF is sold and flying away today.

Remember, the 787 was to be replacing these 767's but they will not any time soon therefore extra 737-800 coming to fill the gap.

[Syd eng]

Another thing to look at in regards to the 767's are they going over for hours due to the fact they recently added C check type tasks to the A check's and now don't have the manpower to do them. Was supposedly done so they could reduce the C check going to BNE so they could do the JetStar 330 checks.

[framer]

I think I've out-anoraked myself today. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wibble.gif
heh heh, a classic call :D

[Trent 972]

Also, 3 x 744s (-OJG, -OJH, -OJJ) are listed on planemart.com (http://www.planemart.com/FAA/Listings.asp?type=Commercial&typeMfr=BOEING&model=747-400) but there's no indication of when the listing went up - only when the airframes will be available (earliest being Sep '12).

Td67, if you click on the 'Model' 747-438 link in the ad, it shows each of the 3 aircraft were listed on 7/5/2011 (That's 5th July 2011)

[Taildragger67]

Thanks Trent for the tip.

Framer - I try!

Anyway - just getting back to it - can we identify:

- the airframes which were parked yesterday (we have VH-TJF and -TJO positively identified, thanks ABC for filling the screen with those rego's for a few secs);

- can we identify which of these are for sale (and therefore possible candidates for parking anyway - VH-TJF definitely is);

- can we identify which are close to an expensive hangar session (and therefore possible candidates for parking anyway);

- can we ascertain if any incoming 738s or A330s will pick up the 'cancelled' services as they incrementally arrive?

If 'yes' to any of the above, then my simple mind thinks that it may serve to undermine arguments that the parkings are on the basis of missed maintenance.

[Keg]

A 738 arrived either last night or this morning from SEA via HNL and NAN.

[obira]

Qantas international's higher costs are not because of less efficiency. More than one-third of its costs are fuel and aircraft depreciation. Qantas is generally more fuel efficient than other airlines because of its choice of aircraft and flight paths. And its aircraft procurement team is an excellent one, able to screw down the best deals on planes
Read more: In it for the long haul (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/in-it-for-the-long-haul-20111018-1lyo5.html#ixzz1bAVA2Vhi)

From an article in the SMH today by 'Tony Webber, an ex-chief economist with Qantas Group, is managing director of Webber Quantitative Consulting'

You can post comments on this article at the above link.

[73to91]

Inbound: According to The Boeing Company (http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm?content=displaystandardreport.cfm&RequestTimeout=20000&optReportType=CurYrDelv&pageid=m15520) QF were to receive 11, 737's this year, through to Sept.

Here, CASA Search -- CASA Aircraft Register (http://casa-query.funnelback.com/search/search.cgi?collection=casa_aircraft_register&collection=casa_aircraft_register&form=&query=QANTAS&meta_v_sand=&Search=Search&session=1344335542&start_rank=41)
you can see the CASA rego details, VH-VZL, ZM, ZO, ZP, ZR, ZS, ZT, ZU, ZV & ZW.

[UPPERLOBE]

Sorry, had this in the wrong thread.

Qantas fleet increases...

New 737-800's deliveries this year = 11

The Boeing Company

A380 deliveries 2011 = 5

3 delivered with 2 more to come in the 4th quarter.

A380 production list - Planes

A330 = 0

Airbus A330 Operators - Planespotters.net Just Aviation (http://www.planespotters.net/Production_List/Airbus/A330/operator.php?p=7)


Stale news...

Qantas' Boeing 737 aircraft fleet up for sale - Flights | hotels | frequent flyer | business class - Australian Business Traveller


All in all a pretty big increase in capacity this year for very few retirements/groundings. And in the year in which they said they were going to reduce capacity because of the economic downturn. :rolleyes:

[Capt Kremin]

He lost me with this point...

Qantas is generally more fuel efficient than other airlines because of its choice of aircraft

[QuadRant1]

That's OK TALLESTPOPPY, I will accept your ignorance as the worst form of stupidity!

Qantas engineers gladly accepted a pay freeze in good faith during the SARS eppidemic in order to keep Qantas profitable and operational.

We have been negotiating in good faith for many months with our CEO to no avail. There comes a point when talk gets you nowhere.

Some advice, do some research, then make a comment.:ok:

[JetRacer]

On the Qantas Facebook page today:

Today we welcome another brand new 737-800 to the Qantas fleet, but this one is even more special as it's the first to sport the new Boeing Sky Interior. It took off about an hour ago as QF610 (MEL-BNE). We bet her passengers are enjoying the flight

Kalgoorlie (VH-VZT) - our first 737 with the Boeing Sky Interior

This was posted about 11am EDST today.

So that replaces one of the 'grounded' aircraft .. :rolleyes:

[Redstone]

Joyce announced a 9 bil. dollar investment in 110 new A320's and to be quite frank I don't believe they will all end up in these minority owned offshore ventures like farQ or poQ or whatever they will be branded. What's the bet 99% of the new a/c end up with stars on the tail and covered in orange paint?

[Taildragger67]

Interesting to see that a couple of the airframes which were 'stored' 10 days ago, have rejoined the fleet.

I don't recall having seen any high-profile public announcements to that effect however.

[stubby jumbo]

Anyone have info on the cabin crew member supposedly fired for negatives comments made over Alan Joyce?

BC......word from QCC/1:

F/A was "chatting" to a pax on a QF11..... who was "chewing the fat" re: future of Qantas. F/A dumped on AJ ......big time....saying (words to the effect) STOOGE, CHUMP, DOPE, UN-AUSTRALIAN etc etc.(can't argue with his logic:ok:)

Pax(close friend of LG) arrived at LAX and called her direct. F/A.... "held out of service". Paxed home. Punted .

You could argue that it was "hearsay" BUT this F/A had form and was in the cross hairs of the Goon Squad.

Apparently he is a starter at the AGM tomorrow.:eek:

[Mstr Caution]

On a lighter note, some wise words on Celebrity Apprentice last night.

If only it could have been directed to a different individual.


You failed to deliver!
You’re responsible for the whole team.
Manager’s lead, they don’t control.
They lead & people follow.
They follow by example & they follow inspiration and strategy.
They look to you when things go wrong, when things aren’t working out. Leadership is very important and I feel on this particular challenge you didn’t’ lead.

Mark Bouris

*Quote condensed to avoid repitition of words

[ohallen]

http://www.smh.com.au/national/qantas-death-threat-probe--dies-20111123-1ntpl.htm

Seems that the police investigation into those timely allegations has been discontinued.

Why would that be if there was ever a credible threat that warranted front page headlines?

It will be interesting to see how they spin this one now or will there be deafening silence.

[Tankengine]

Link broken so it looks like silence.:hmm:

[breakfastburrito]

Yes, but the damage has been done. Propaganda 101, put out an exaggerated claim, knowing full well that the it will be shown to be as such once investigated. An investigation being discontinued won't draw the same headlines as the "alleged death threat against CEO". The aim is to insert a a false meme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme) to vilify a particular group in the gullible publics mind.

[ga_trojan]

All the unions should issue press releases pointing to this fact and asking Alan Joyce to apologise.

[TIMA9X]

new link here
Qantas death-threat probe ... dies (http://www.smh.com.au/national/qantas-deaththreat-probe--dies-20111123-1ntpl.html)
The NSW Police have, without explanation, dropped their investigation into alleged death threats made against Qantas's chief executive Alan Joyce and other senior managers.


Complaints from Qantas about threatening letters and emails led to police forming a taskforce during the escalating industrial dispute with unions representing long-haul pilots, aircraft engineers and ground crew including baggage handlers.
But NSW Police have confirmed that Strike Force Barrine – made up of officers from Botany Bay Local Area Command – has decided not to continue the investigation.


A police spokesman would not elaborate on the reasons that the investigation had ended.
"As far as the investigation is concerned, it was alive and now it's not," he said.
The Australian Federal Police have also confirmed that they were "not investigating any specific threats made against Qantas executives and employees".


The alleged threats received widespread media coverage in early October, but unions questioned whether they were a "PR stunt" by the airline to win public support.


Qantas contacted police after Mr Joyce received a threatening letter in May, which contained the name and address of the author. The police later deemed that the letter did not constitute a death threat, although the author was spoken to and the "matter finalised".


Police were also notified on October 5 about an email sent to Mr Joyce which contained in its subject line the words "death threats". However, the body copy of the email did not use those words.
Other matters referred to police included complaints that a Qantas employee had received a threatening letter on September 27 and several hang-up phone calls at their home.
The taskforce also attempted to "confirm reports that were allegedly made to company security officers about malicious damage to vehicles parked in a car park".


In early October as the bitter industrial dispute was escalating, Mr Joyce sent a memo to the airline's 35,000-strong workforce informing them that he had referred to police incidents whereby executives had "received menacing correspondence, including to their homes".


The memo stated: "Those who are in the business of using threats, violence and intimidation to obtain their industrial ends should know this: these tactics are cowardly and deplorable. They will not work. Anyone who is caught will face the full consequences."


Mr Joyce later said that Qantas decided to go public at the time because "the bullying and intimidation [of staff] seemed to be going to a new level".
But police say the matter will go no further

Read more: Qantas death-threat probe ... dies (http://www.smh.com.au/national/qantas-deaththreat-probe--dies-20111123-1ntpl.html#ixzz1eUJgs3zQ)
You got to say, the Sydney Morning Herald have done a great job covering the Qantas events over the past few months, unlike its competitor.

[Keg]

If the wallopers have stopped investigating does this mean that they believe they have no evidence of death threats?

[rh200]

Wallopers stop investigating for lots of reasons, it doesn't mean there no threat. It can range from not enough evidence, to some one taking what was said out of context, to just PR bull. What is this, most likely a combination of all of the above.

Whilst death treats in industrial disputes are not unheard of, I would think pilots wouldn't go for it, though in my opinion the TWU and some of their cronies could.

[TIMA9X]

Let's step back and look at how this was presented on Sunrise

jbhzjhOASTY

interesting when you look back...

[Conductor]

Whilst death treats in industrial disputes are not unheard of, I would think pilots wouldn't go for it, though in my opinion the TWU and some of their cronies could.

Nice broad brush you're using on the TWU there rh200.

[rh200]

My apoligies to the general rank and file, like the make up of a lot of groups, most of them are most likley resonable.

If I came across Tony Sheldon on fire and I had a full bladder I still wouldn't p!ss on him. Most of the heads of the traditional unions are no better than the people you are fighting against, two side of the same coin

[Ultralights]

will the state govmint invoice QF for the costs of the police investigation? PR at the cost of the taxpayer...

[QF94]

will the state govmint invoice QF for the costs of the police investigation? PR at the cost of the taxpayer...

As this is not a life threatening event, the NSW Police won't be investigating it any time soon, as they're looking at having their own strike against the NSW state government.

[woollcott]

Everybody has probably seen it:

qantas-twitter_downfall.wmv - YouTube

[blurter8]

I have a feeling that Joyce and his actions will attract comedy for a long time yet!
ABC just a few mins ago, John Clarke & Bryan Dawe!!
LMAO.
I have no idea how to provide a link, anyone help.
Cheers.

[TIMA9X]

yv1w3XmlO9w

[Propstop]

I have just got in my inbox a special fare on Emirates to Dublin; maybe a certain small man should be put on the flight. I am sure if the hat were to be passed around there would be enough for a one way ticket.:E

[QF94]

I am sure if the hat were to be passed around there would be enough for a one way ticket.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif


I'm sure he could afford it out of his recent bonus payout and also a lock for the door as it slams his ar$e on his way out.


I would gladly pay for his ticket in exchange for his Aussie passport and a termination of any chancrs of ever coming back. The only problem with AJ going back to Oireland is that St Patrick has already expelled all the snakes from there.

[Dixons Millions]

It seems to me that it's a weird world when we have posters on a thread such as this attacking the CEO of a company that has the support of 98% of its shareholders and made $500 million profit last financial year

My god, haven't we had enough bulls#&t on this issue already? clotted, you know this is an out and out lie. The VAST majority of QF shareholders do not support AJ and the Board, and you and the other trolls onsite bloody well know it. Of the 133,000+ shareholders my guess would be no more than 2,000 odd are in agreement (QF, for obviously damaging reasons to them will not produce the actual figures). The problem is the vast majority of shareholders are you and me, Mum and Dad. 95% of the votes are held by what, 20 single, solitary people. It's a joke. In other words mate, the other 2% of votes = well over 130,000 Shareholders.

clotted you are....

[Dixons Millions]

Ha ha ha ha! You are a clot, aren't you? Perhaps the 98% know something all others don't know eh...?

[clotted]

It seems to me that it's a weird world when we have posters on a thread such as this attacking the CEO of a company that has the support of 98% of its shareholders and made $500 million profit last financial year and yet yesterday a competitor's CEO had his remuneration package voted against by 45% of its shareholders and made a loss for the year and yet another airline in Australia declined to forecast a profit for next year and the only other Australian trunk airline is still losing money after being grounded for being badly run.
I'm not sure who has it right and who has it wrong. I suspect it is probably not the posters on this thread.

[noip]

Clotted,

In the interests of accuracy, the company concerned did not have the support of 98% of shareholders. Your assertion is incorrect.


N

[UPPERLOBE]

Hahaha having a boring evening clotted?

98% of shares owned by 2% of shareholders voted in support of that motion.

No dividend for 2 years, gee whiz, they really are kicking all the goals.

Perhaps you need to think past the spin, either that or find a news source other than News Ltd.

If you do actually work for the airline concerned you must be blind as well as deaf, it would be hard to find a more disengaged workforce in a company of that size.

A lot of previously willing horses have been flogged well past their limit.

[ohallen]

Sure not every view expressed here is correct and in some cases they are highly suspect re logic,but lets hope the senators give the Rat a lesson in business ethics in a way that demonstrates to some of the decision makers that the means does not justify the end.

DJ is a completely different animal to the Rat but what some are grabbing onto is the fact that it is not the role of either a Board or CEO to totally alienate almost the entire workforce and loyal customers and destroy years of technical competence developed through vast experience banks without damn good reasons.Undeveloped plans and deceptions do not fall into that category.

If the Rat is in the place as alleged at this time, it got there by a process that was essentially dictated by or agreed by prior management and employees, so a competent management team would work out a way to evolve with its workers rather than just lay the entire blame on the workers.

If we are at this precipice then it is because those responsible failed to act to evolve in an economically rational way before revolution was necessary. ie the Executive and Board failed to fulfill their own responsibilities.

As I have said on many occasions, never have I seen a management team that has been perceived to have mislead so many and get away with it and with such breathtaking levels of arrogance.The public dont like that and that is why there is so much contempt being shown for the Company at this time.

Perhaps all of the above explains why JB was treated so differently and at the risk of alienating some, perhaps justifiably so.

The Qantas brand is an asset of the Australian economy and not for the benefit of a select few to play with as they see fit.

There is more to this than shareholder profits.What came from the QSA discussion in the senate was that the current actions are not consistent with the intent of the legislation and the Rat is playing the game by its own interpretation of the rules which is probably correct but not consistent with what was intended at the time that Qantas was deemed the national carrier.

Time to fix that up.

[clotted]

Exactly what I mean, you two:
the apples and apples comparison is that the owners of 98% of the shares in the first company voted in favour whereas the owners of 45% of the shares voted against in the second company.
Obviously the 98% accept for whatever reason the non-payment of a dividend.

[tail wheel]

98%?? Some people have more dollars than cents.

Some people have more of other people's dollars than sense.

The largest shareholders are trust fund institutional investors holding and investing superannuation funds (including mine! :sad:)

Posted at 11.41 Aust Eastern Standard Time - not 26th Nov 2011, 03:27

This should be Post 176 :ugh:

[Ngineer]

98%?? Some people have more dollars than cents.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTzhIHzYsnv2jAcFnKYErewJzauJ4IaXyBENe9znp2 DBsOl1wd-ug

[rowdy trousers]

There are three (3) types of people in the world - those who understand numerology and those who dont.

The other 50 % dont care either way, and the remaining two thirds cant add up.

[TAFDamo]

So help me God, I'll ground the whole internet - LMFAO. :D

[DirectAnywhere]

It is an interesting question re voting rights of shareholders.

The vast majority of shares in Australian companies are held by institutional investors who invest in shares for mum and dad investors for superannuation, managed funds etc.

The voting rights, however, are vested in the directors and trustees of the funds rather than the final owners of the shares. Perhaps it is overdue that the real owners of the shares are given the option to direct their proxies as they see fit rather than the default position of the fund managers.

It would be chaos but geeze it would be fun to watch! Once the smartest guys in the room realise that real 'little' people are empowered to have their say it might change things a little.

[*Lancer*]

That's called self-managered superannuation, and Mum and Dad are welcome to make that choice anytime they like!