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chrisbl
3rd Oct 2011, 19:56
Tube drivers to get £50,000 a year - Home News, UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tube-drivers-to-get-50000-a-year-2364988.html)

Metal tube with passengers on board to predetermined destinations under a system of control.

I bet they dont spend £50k plus to get their train dirvers licence.

CAT3C AUTOLAND
3rd Oct 2011, 20:21
And your point is?

tony draper
3rd Oct 2011, 20:33
Does it not say in the good book that the tradesman is worthy of his hire.:rolleyes:

Seldomfitforpurpose
3rd Oct 2011, 20:51
The Great British trait of envy at work again :rolleyes:

Flypuppy
3rd Oct 2011, 20:58
And your point is?
That BALPA and the IPA have failed, fundamentally, to protect the terms and conditions of pilots.

mixture
3rd Oct 2011, 21:04
Seldomfitforpurpose,

The Great British trait of envy at work again

Hmmm... I note your "location" as Oxon.

Just how often does Sir frequent the London Underground ? Or perhaps Sir drives or has a driver ?

There are many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many BETTER THINGS that London Underground SHOULD be spending its money on in order to improve service rather than paying its excessive number of staff and middle-managers even more money !

Paying them money is NOT going to improve service, and it's NOT going to put a stop to their famous strikes !

CAT3C AUTOLAND
3rd Oct 2011, 21:09
Fly P, I havent got a bloody clue what you are on about :rolleyes:

Flypuppy
3rd Oct 2011, 21:09
The Rail Maritime and Transport union today began consulting on a four-year pay deal which LU said offered the prospect of no industrial action over wages until at least 2015.
Mixture, looks like the extra is going to stop those strikes....

Tankertrashnav
3rd Oct 2011, 21:13
A few years back there was a Skybus pilot down here who had been a tube driver and even before they hit the £50k level had taken a hefty pay cut in order to get a start in commercial aviation.

Must say something about the relative attractiveness of the jobs that someone was willing to lay out a shed load of his own cash in order to qualify for a precarious profession with the likelihood that he would never attain the sort of money he had been earning.

If he's still flying for them, when he's flying his Islander or Twin Otter down the coast and over to Scilly, I bet he doesn't wish he was back on the Circle Line - £50k or no £50K.

muppetofthenorth
3rd Oct 2011, 21:15
The Rail Maritime and Transport union today began consulting on a four-year pay deal which LU said offered the prospect of no industrial action over wages until at least 2015.

Mixture, looks like the extra is going to stop those strikes....

Only if you assume the only reason they ever strike is wages. I'm sure they could find another reason to.

Flypuppy
3rd Oct 2011, 21:16
Cat3c

The average pilot in the uk pays about 70k for training to get a job that has a starting salary around 30k.

An underground train driver gets paid while he is being trained and then goes on to earn more than 50k. Overground trains drivers are similar.

Pilot's unions have consistently failed to protect pilots t&c's and have been silent on pay to fly and pay for type rating deals.

I don't think I can make it any simpler.

Seldomfitforpurpose
3rd Oct 2011, 21:16
Seldomfitforpurpose,

Paying them money is NOT going to improve service, and it's NOT going to put a stop to their famous strikes !

You sure about that :p

mixture
3rd Oct 2011, 21:19
Mixture, looks like the extra is going to stop those strikes....

Yeah, and I'm the pope.

If London Underground management fall for that story it will only serve to confirm my worst suspicions.

Come on ... you know what it's like .... now they've seen what can be achieved, they'll continue pushing for more.

tony draper
3rd Oct 2011, 21:22
I would have thought the underground would be a ideal subject for complete automation,ie total computer control, no drivers.:rolleyes:

mixture
3rd Oct 2011, 21:27
I would have thought the underground would be a ideal subject for complete automation,ie total computer control, no drivers.

Guess what, they threatened a strike over that when Boris aired that idea in public (sometime last year if I recall).

tony draper
3rd Oct 2011, 21:34
Well one can hardly blame them for that, the chaps at the pointy end of those heavier than air machines would be a tad miffed if they were threatened with replacement by a lump of silicon.
If one is a turkey one does not vote for Christmas as the old saying goes.
:rolleyes:

mixture
3rd Oct 2011, 21:35
tony,

True... but they should really open their eyes and look around them at the state of the service.

A few examples from today's trips on the underground ....

Westbound platform closed due to flooding
Overheated, overcrowded, dirty, smelly carriages
Driver announcing slow progress is "due to congestion ahead"
A signal failure

And regrettably that's not just a rare occurrence. A quick look through twit/google will reveal many other examples.

Paying drivers more would resolve those issues how ?

tony draper
3rd Oct 2011, 21:44
Was the London Underground privatized in the manner of the rest of the railway system?? if so one could not seriously expect the poor company who bought it for a song to actually part with coin for improvements,that's the tax payers job,they are just there to hoover up as much cash as possible as the system gradually falls to pieces.
:rolleyes:

ExSp33db1rd
3rd Oct 2011, 22:02
In the 20's and 30's the mainline, express, steam train drivers were looked up to with some public awe as being at the top of the Working Man's tree, and during the 60's and 70's that awe was often transferred to the likes of the BOAC Stratocruiser, Boeing 707, North Atlantic Captains, and the train drivers depicted as nothing more than greasy boilersuit clad workers, carrying their lunch to work in a little metal box.

I recall one of those Captains of the time remarking that if we weren't careful we'd soon be regarded as nothing more than the, then, train drivers.

Maybe the wheel has now turned full circle ?

I also recall another such Captain refusing flight deck visits, he reckoned the flight deck was his office, and suggested that if he went along to his Bank, walked around the counter, opened the Managers' door, and said " I just want to see what you do to manage this Bank " he'd be thrown out on his ear, and went on to point out that the public don't see a surgeon in the Operating Theatre, or a High Court Judge in his 'Chambers' and so there is an air of mystery about what they actually do, which maintains the public awe of them- and allows them to command large salaries as a result.

He pointed out that the pax. are ( were ! ) only allowed on to the flight deck at quiet periods, and thought that a pilot just sat their drinking coffee, and watching the auto-pilot, and then took the prettiest Hostess to bed in some five-star hotel in some exotic city. No pax. was ever present on a difficult, marginal ILS approach into, say, Calcutta at night during the Monsoon, when one really earned ones' salary. Don't give up the mystery, he said.

Now any 5 yr old with a Microsoft Flt. Sim. reckon they can be an Airline Pilot, so why pay them all that money ?

We made it look too easy - and gave it away.

It's not Love that makes the World go around - it's Bullsh*t !

Cynic ? Moi ?

hellsbrink
4th Oct 2011, 04:09
Was the London Underground privatized in the manner of the rest of the railway system??

It was partly privatised, then the whole thing went TU and was taken back into "public" hands.

wiggy
4th Oct 2011, 04:45
Ex Sp33db1rd..

Top post,

We made it look too easy - and gave it away

Indeed :ok:

Krystal n chips
4th Oct 2011, 05:04
50k pa for driving a Tube train.....:hmm:

Lets think here. Cost of living in and around London, responsibility, working conditions ( fancy driving underground all day ?....possibly better with those lines that go above ground ) the odd suicide..or three, 7/7 attacks or similar in the future.

Just a few examples to counter the heart rending angst expressed by some on here who, presumably, feel that it's a menial occupation and should thus be renumerated as such.

More astute readers will have noted I concur with the remuneration .:ok:

How many on here though, I wonder, would consider drivng a Tube as a career ?

Maybe BALPA should engage the services of a certain RMT union leader.....just a thought....:E

.

rh200
4th Oct 2011, 06:03
Must say something about the relative attractiveness of the jobs that someone was willing to lay out a shed load of his own cash in order to qualify for a precarious profession with the likelihood that he would never attain the sort of money he had been earning.Two men standing at the bar in a night club, in walks this hot blond and stands between them. Hi she says, what do you boys do, Oh I drive a tube train says one, I'm an airline pilot says the other. Which one will be looking at her back the next instant and the other one chatting her up!

p.s do not push the looking at the back bit to the obvious conclusion:E

stuckgear
4th Oct 2011, 06:11
Comrade KnC,


50k pa for driving a Tube train.....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

Lets think here. Cost of living in and around London, responsibility, working conditions ( fancy driving underground all day ?....possibly better with those lines that go above ground ) the odd suicide..or three, 7/7 attacks or similar in the future.

Just a few examples to counter the heart rending angst expressed by some on here who, presumably, feel that it's a menial occupation and should thus be renumerated as such.



NHS Pay scales..


Grade EExperienced Staff Nurse (Midwives normally start at this grade)
From £17,660 to £21,325


Grade FSenior Nurse
From £19,585 to £24,455


London Allowances
If you work in London, you are entitled to an allowance. The amount varies depending on whether you are working in Inner London or Outer London. Be warned that even though these allowances seem like a lot of extra money, the cost of living in London is very high.
London
Inner London: All staff in clinical grading structure - grades A to I and consultant grade posts - £3,333 per annum
Outer London: All staff in clinical grading structure - grades A to I and consultant grade posts - £2,604 per annum
Cost of Living Supplement
From 1st April 2002 all qualified nurses (grade C and above) working in London and the South East will receive Cost of Living Supplements. Eligible staff working in London receive an additional payment of 4% of basic salary, up to a maximum of £1,000. Outside London eligible staff receive 2.5% of salary, up to a maximum of £600.


London Fireman...


Salary: £26178 inclusive of London weighting



So what you are saying is that these jobs are menial compared to the lofty paygrade of a tube driver, and their dealing with death, injury, terrorism, public safety and health is no comparision.

by the way, your inclusion of 7/7 as a justification is a very weak proposal and insulting to those who actually do deal with anti-terror on a daily basis.

mixture
4th Oct 2011, 07:01
50k pa for driving a Tube train.....

Lets think here. Cost of living in and around London, responsibility, working conditions ( fancy driving underground all day ?....possibly better with those lines that go above ground ) the odd suicide..or three, 7/7 attacks or similar in the future.


Yeah, but you conveniently forget that they're already on 40k ! And getting paid that 40k for a leisurely 35 hour week ! They also get 43 days annual leave and free staff travel !

So they haven't exactly got a tough life at the moment.

And spare me that nonsense about working conditions, if they stopped asking for more pay, perhaps the same money could be ploughed back into improving the service and its dated infrastructure.

As others have pointed out, suicides, terrorist attacks etc. is the heart-wrenching talk that the union use...you conveniently forget that emergency workers (amongst others) also face the same potential difficulties, also work in London, but don't get paid 40/50k !

You don't need 50kpa to live in London, even more so if you don't have to pay for using the shoddy public transport !

Rollingthunder
4th Oct 2011, 07:03
p.s do not push the looking at the back bit to the obvious conclusion

Too late.

If a tube train fails, it stops.
If an aircraft fails it doesn't have the option of pulling over to the side of the road.

Takan Inchovit
4th Oct 2011, 09:45
What do airline pilots earn in comparison?

Storminnorm
4th Oct 2011, 10:05
Certifying Aircraft Engineers earn quite a lot then, by
comparison.
(Better not say HOW much!!)

radeng
4th Oct 2011, 10:11
Completely automating to get rid of the driver would be a little difficult, I feel. OK while all goes well. But what happens when someone pulls the emergency handle? A coach catches fire, or derails, and who deals with getting the power off, and the pax along the track? A pax is partially trapped between the doors - all these things can go wrong - and fairly often do. Or, as has happened, a train starts leaving the station and the doors open?

You need an automated system that actually has people on the ground....

MagnusP
4th Oct 2011, 10:26
DLR seem to manage well enough.

ORAC
4th Oct 2011, 10:28
Completely automating to get rid of the driver would be a little difficult, I feel. OK while all goes well.

Paris Metro Line 14 (http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/meteor/) - and Line 1 by the end of 2011...

Dubai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_Metro), Helsinki (http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/helsinki-metro-to-go-fully-automated.html), Barcelona, (https://www.swe.siemens.com/france/web/en/sts/news/press/releases/Documents/Siemens_Barcelona_e.pdf), Shanghai (http://www.alstom.com/news-and-events/press-releases/Alstom-will-provide-the-fully-automated-system-for-line-10-of-Shanghai-metro-20071127/)

List of Driverless Trains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_driverless_trains)

You push the cost up so high, it becomes cost effective to automate and end up out of a job.

mixture
4th Oct 2011, 10:32
You need an automated system that actually has people on the ground....

I don't disagree. But the DLR model of "intelligent hands" is the way to go. Rather than paying increased sums of cash.

As an extreme example, take the Waterloo & City line. It's only got two stops, Waterloo and Bank. Trains go back and forth between the two, nowhere else to go. Why do you need to pay a bunch of people £50k pa to do that ?

As rollingthunder said :

If a tube train fails, it stops.
If an aircraft fails it doesn't have the option of pulling over to the side of the road.

But what happens when someone pulls the emergency handle? A coach catches fire, or derails, and who deals with getting the power off, and the pax along the track? A pax is partially trapped between the doors - all these things can go wrong - and fairly often do. Or, as has happened, a train starts leaving the station and the doors open?

In all of these examples, the driver does very little to justify a high salary.

Emergency handle ? Get to the next tube station, throw person off the train for station staff/emergency services to deal with.

Fire/Derailment ? The driver is not superman, all he's going to do is call for assistance from others who ... are not drivers. Chances are the line controllers will see the block-back happening and know about it before the driver gets round to calling them anyway.

Trapped between doors/doors open ... open and re-close doors, get off your bum and go have a look ... nothing that justifies a hefty salary.

Power off and pax along track ? Line controller turns off power, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to give pax a basic safety briefing and walk them down a track.

Their job is no different to a bus/coach/lorry driver. And bus/coach/lorry drivers don't earn £50k !

stuckgear
4th Oct 2011, 10:43
Their job is no different to a bus/coach/lorry driver. And bus/coach/lorry drivers don't earn £50k !


I would assert that Bus/Coach?Truck drivers have a more difficult job and has more implications toward public safety. as they operate their vehicles in two dimensions and have to manouever their vehicles amid other traffic, narrow streets, loading bays etc etc.

tube drivers, really dont.

Time has come to automate the tube network, of course the prevention for doing that has been, to date, errrm.. the unions.

mixture
4th Oct 2011, 10:44
I would assert that Bus/Coach?Truck drivers have a more difficult job and has more implications toward public safety. as they operate their vehicles in two dimensions and have to manouever their vehicles amid other traffic, narrow streets, loading bays etc etc.

Agreed.....

I have every respect for them, especially those who drive the bendy buses around London streets..... that must be a job from hell !

Parapunter
4th Oct 2011, 10:44
Truck drivers can and do earn 50 plus. Bus drivers I have no idea about.

mixture
4th Oct 2011, 10:48
Bus drivers I have no idea about.

From adverts I've seen on backs of buses £300-500 per week

Flypuppy
4th Oct 2011, 11:26
What do airline pilots earn in comparison?
Captains at a Regional airline on top scale (after 10 years) approx 65k (start at approx 57k), First Officers top scale approx 42k (start at approx 34k).

Turboprop FO starts at approx 27k top scale approx 35-40k, Captains approx 50k-65k

Dont forget that to get these salaries pilots typically have had to shell out in excess of 50k, and are often bonded or must pay for type training as well.

tony draper
4th Oct 2011, 11:34
I don't know of any profession trade or job who's practicioners do not regard themselves as underpaid, be they street sweeper machine operater or brain surgeon.:rolleyes:

SLFguy
4th Oct 2011, 11:46
Journo writes a piece on Aviation.."Lies, Lies!!" and Pprune goes into meltdown.

Journo writes a piece on LT Drivers.."Gospel, Gospel!!" and Pprune goes into meltdown.

:hmm:

Sallyann1234
4th Oct 2011, 12:22
Who is talking about journo's?

The plain facts are that a tube driver has two functions:
(1) To open and close the doors while checking a CCTV screen.
(2) To operate simple stop/go controls in response to signals.

If he goes through a red light the train stops itself anyway.
In the event of a severe mechanical defect he simply stops the train where it is and calls for help.

How does that justify a £50k pay packet?

mixture
4th Oct 2011, 12:23
I don't know of any profession trade or job who's practicioners do not regard themselves as underpaid

I guess this is with the exception of footballers, bankers, CEOs of multinationals etc. ?

SLFguy.... The obvious solution is to get rid of journos. :p

Sallyann,
(1) To open and close the doors while checking a CCTV screen.



And at many Central London stations, even that job is half-done for the driver, by a member of station staff at the platform raising a white stick when it's ok to close the doors.



There's also this lovely snippet from the Evening Standard :


Mr Crow said by "standing firm" during tense notations "our members have secured one of the best pay offers in the country and one that protects their standards of living well into the future."

Union bosses today made clear, however, that negotiations will continue for extra money - bonus payments - for working during the Olympics.


So they've secured £50k and yet feel they still need to be paid more during special events, even though the service delivered is unlikely to be any different on those days to any other.

Storminnorm
4th Oct 2011, 14:16
For goodness sake!!
We HAVE to keep them happy until the Bl**dy Olympics finish!!

FFS!!!!

Whatever you do, don't upset Mr Crow.

charliegolf
4th Oct 2011, 14:28
The average pilot in the uk pays about 70k for training to get a job that has a starting salary around 30k.



There's the difference. For RMT members it's a bread and butter job. For pilots, it's a hobby- an outlet for their savings. Simple.

More seriously, the quote enshrines the reason for the pay gap. One industry boss is saying, "We have to pay, or they'll shut us down." The other is saying, "These people are stupid- they're paying US to work. Stuff 'em."

Now which do you think is which?

CG

Katamarino
4th Oct 2011, 14:29
If I was in charge, I'd have a company quietly developing a fully automated system that can be quickly and easily deployed. I'd get all the hardware installed quietly under the guise of "improved safety systems", and then hand every driver their notice in one go. :ok: If they decide to strike while working their notice, we just switch straight to automatic a little sooner!

Storminnorm
4th Oct 2011, 16:08
Perhaps a Cousin will know, but isn't the New York metro
system fully "Automated"??

Rollingthunder
4th Oct 2011, 16:48
http://www.subways.net/canada/skybridge.jpg

Parapunter
4th Oct 2011, 16:52
Call me old fashioned, but I prefer those controlling the 400 ton machine carting me about to have discretion installed as standard.:rolleyes:

http://i53.tinypic.com/wch0l2.jpg

radeng
4th Oct 2011, 19:17
So the train stops. There's no driver. There's no one else - it's all automated. How the hell do people know what to do? How well does control know what is happening? Experience so far suggests that they don't.

The DLR isn't a good example of automation, working on its reliability record.

But even taking into account anti social hours, £55k seems a bit much, although we don't know how long the working week is.

As a specialised consultant, I only charge £500 a day on a long contract (£100 an hour for a short contract or less than a day)

expense (including Business Class air fare and First Class railway travel are extra, of course)

eastern wiseguy
4th Oct 2011, 19:21
How many people self sponsor to become tube train drivers?:hmm:.......now how many self sponsor to become pilots and can then be paid crappy salaries a la Turboprop FO starts at approx 27k top scale approx 35-40k, Captains approx 50k-65k having paid heaven knows what for the "glory"?
Don't complain if the tube drivers union can cut a good deal......

radeng
4th Oct 2011, 20:13
If there weren't so many people keen to be pilots.....

So many are pilots because they WANT to be. As soon as there's a shortage, things will change - but too many want to be pilots, so it won't.

Krystal n chips
5th Oct 2011, 04:48
Comrade stuckgear.....alas, you only get a Daily Mail Bronze Award for the inevitable comparison between Tube drivers salaries and those of medics / firemen....;)

However, at no point did I state these occupations were menial. The inference from others however, albeit not stated of course, was that those who drive a Tube train were "only" Tube drivers and thus why should they be paid so much.

Which begs the question....how much do you, and others, feel the remuneration should be....and why ?, Please do not involve the well developed UK trait of the politics of envy here and personal occupation choice ( see threads various, pensions and public / private sectors etc for guidance )

As for the 7/7 attacks, well public transport ( all forms, but mass in particular ) has always been, and always willl be, a soft target for any terrorist . The point therefore was that the drivers are precisely that, not emergency services workers and, for obvious reasons in the event of an attack, the first point of contact for the public..if they survive.

That said, do a quick search and I think you will find that those involved acquitted themselves above and beyond as they say...and full credit to them.

mixture....no doubt you can, and people do, live on less than 50k in London...but even to my simple Mancunian mind, and frugal wallet, one cannot help but notice when one has the grave and involuntary misfortune to visit our glorious capital, that prices are, well...excessive.

Evening Standard inflation index: The real cost of living in London | This is Money (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-1630339/The-real-cost-of-living-in-London.html)

So, after all the wailing and whinging about Tube drivers, would the same wailing have been heard if Shylockandbodgeup Airlines had decided to pay a low hrs F/O say, £60k as a base salary?......the silence would have been deafening.

mixture
5th Oct 2011, 07:25
radeng

But even taking into account anti social hours, £55k seems a bit much, although we don't know how long the working week is.

35 hour week. 43 days annual leave.

krystal,

That article is not really fair, after all the woman is moaning about the high price of living in London and yet she's buying premium foods (avocados, salmon fillets) and has a health club membership.

The main problem in London is property. There's a lot of demand, not much of it, and many greedy landlords out to make a quick buck on the rental market who are snapping up properties for buy-to-let which diminishes the limited pool available.


So, after all the wailing and whinging about Tube drivers, would the same wailing have been heard if Shylockandbodgeup Airlines had decided to pay a low hrs F/O say, £60k as a base salary?......the silence would have been deafening.

Chalk and cheese in terms of responsibility. Plus the F/O has probably invested a rather substantial amount of cash in his training that even at £60k will take him a few years to pay off when you take into account other living expenses he has to cover beyond paying back the loans.

stuckgear
5th Oct 2011, 08:19
Comrade KnC, thanks for the award, alas a DM bronze award cannot in any way compare to your Socialist Worker Gold Award for rhetoric...


alas, you only get a Daily Mail Bronze Award for the inevitable comparison between Tube drivers salaries and those of medics / firemen....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif



Now it was *you* who likened tube drivers to being some kind of social hero with your citation of the

responsibility, working conditions ( fancy driving underground all day ?....possibly better with those lines that go above ground ) the odd suicide..or three, 7/7 attacks or similar in the future.


Hmm. now in terms of responsibility for the health and dealing with personal injuries in london, Nurses are pretty much up there, as are firemen.. After all when when a jumper's remains or hideously injured bodies are removed from the tracks it would the ambulance crews and firemen that have the grim task and the medical teams that try with great humanity to put people back together, yet half an hour later can be required to deal with something on the opposite end of the spectrum.

And as for the citation of the 7/7 attacks, how on earth is tube driver any different from any other londoner, those that commute on the tube by neccessity every day ?

By reasonable extension, then your argument must also include the increment of every tube traveller's salary due to the 7/7 attacks. Busses were targets too, so then that should include bus drivers and those that travel overland too.

And in terms of the 7/7 citation, firemen were indeed an the front line as were the medical staff of london. BBC News - Why 7/7 could have been even worse (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10509744)


A scene of "utter chaos" transformed into "something resembling sense". That's how one woman describes the impact of Doctor Peter Holden's arrival at the scene of the wrecked number 30 bus in London's Tavistock Square on 7 July, 2005.




The bus was torn apart in front of the headquarters of the British Medical Association (BMA), where he was attending committee meetings. A GP by trade, he is also trained as one of the UK's few major incident commanders.
"I thought 'I really am in it now'," he says. "Then I thought 'you've been trained for this - come on'."
By yet another coincidence, a medical conference was also being held at the BMA. It meant dozens of doctors were on hand to offer lifesaving expertise.




"There were more doctors there than you'd find in casualty department and certainly more senior doctors than you would find in any casualty - ever," says Doctor Laurence Buckman, who was at the conference. "There were some anaesthetists, some consultant surgeons and there were a lot of GPs."
Doctor Mandy Du Feu is in no doubt how significant this series of coincidences was. She was on another bus travelling in the opposite direction to the number 30 when it blew up.



Firefighter Michael Ellis was one of the first people on the scene. As he tried to help, Dr Holden introduced himself and took charge.


As you will kindly note, those citations are not taken from the Daily Mail but from the leftwing propaganda mouthpiece known as the BBC. :p

You simply have no argument for the justification of a salary for tube drivers that is double the national average salary with a shorter week aside from the usual 'Red or Dead' Socialist rhetoric.

So, thanks for the DM bronze award, but i have to return it as it is unjustified, however, in respect of your Socialist Worker Gold Award for rhetoric, it's your too keep, it's well earned.

Curious Pax
5th Oct 2011, 08:35
Anyone else see the irony that those against the level of pay for tube drivers appear to be largely right of centre in outlook? In other arguments they would be pushing the virtue of market forces I imagine.

In the case of the tube, the market forces would appear to have led LU to decide that it is worth offering this level of salary to preserve their service against disruption - whether that is from industrial action or lack of sufficient quality of drivers prepared to do the job for the money is irrelevant.

Unfortunately for those charged with overseeing the transfer of the paying public through the air rather than through the ground it would seem that a lower level of salary can achieve the same result.

tony draper
5th Oct 2011, 09:30
Yer we have to pay them these vast amounts because if we dont they might take their trains and buggah off to furrin parts.
:rolleyes:

mixture
5th Oct 2011, 10:04
In the case of the tube, the market forces would appear to have led LU to decide that it is worth offering this level of salary to preserve their service against disruption

Market forces ??? What market forces ???

It's the unions that have led LU to its decision. Every time its the same thing, the unions do the equivalent of shoving LU into a corner and holding a loaded gun against its head until LU caves in.

Its a despicable state of affairs.

BabyBear
5th Oct 2011, 10:04
Plus the F/O has probably invested a rather substantial amount of cash in his training that even at £60k will take him a few years to pay off when you take into account other living expenses he has to cover beyond paying back the loans.

I find the above absolutely laughable. Are you suggesting tube drivers remuneration should in some way be linked to how much an F/O borrows, or that F/Os should be paid a %age above tube drivers?

That good old British disease of 'envy' is prevalent in this thread beyond belief.

BB

Storminnorm
5th Oct 2011, 10:16
Good old British Airways paid for my Lad's training on
"How To Drive an Airyplane."

I'm forever grateful to them for that.
We'd never have got rid of him otherwise.

Curious Pax
5th Oct 2011, 10:23
Market forces ??? What market forces ???

It's the unions that have led LU to its decision. Every time its the same thing, the unions do the equivalent of shoving LU into a corner and holding a loaded gun against its head until LU caves in.

Its a despicable state of affairs.

The market forces that lead to LU deciding that the cost of doing what the union wants is worth paying compared to the cost of toughing it out. With today's trade union laws (see the BA Cabin Crew strike for reference) they do have options.

I accept that I'm leaving aside the possibility that LU's management may be cowardly and inept, but you could argue that is also a result of marker forces.

mixture
5th Oct 2011, 10:46
I find the above absolutely laughable. Are you suggesting tube drivers remuneration should in some way be linked to how much an F/O borrows, or that F/Os should be paid a %age above tube drivers?


You seem to have taken great delight in mis-interpreting my comment.

The market forces that lead to LU deciding that the cost of doing what the union wants is worth paying compared to the cost of toughing it out.

The problem is they are a victim of their own demise. The way the system is run at present is uneconomical and unsustainable, change needs to happen. But change costs money, and change affects those who subscribe to the unions. Hence yes, caving in may be cheaper.... but only in the short term.... in the long term, management really need to get their act together and make some tough decisions.

Hopefully they are just buying some time until after the Olympics, then the real games will begin ! :E

BabyBear
5th Oct 2011, 10:58
Mixture, I apologise if I have misinterpreted your comment, please explain how.

What has the amount a pilot earns, or pays for training (through choice) got to do with what tube drivers are paid?

BB

Fredairstair
5th Oct 2011, 11:12
It's a few years old but still funny.

Amateur Transplants - London Underground Song - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&v=FYVJSOFZxDE)

mixture
5th Oct 2011, 13:28
What has the amount a pilot earns, or pays for training (through choice) got to do with what tube drivers are paid?


That was exactly the point I was trying to make.

I was not the one who brought up the topic of comparing pilots and tube drivers in the first place. I too was trying to say it was like chalk and cheese trying to compare the two.

Tube drivers are overpaid.

Pilots have to undergo a great deal of expensive training, which they end up paying off for years after they've landed their first job in the right hand seat. The level of responsibility pilots have is far greater than your run of the mill tube driver will ever see in his lifetime on the rails.

In essence, I guess what I'm trying to say is .... if I had to pick between the two as to who should be paid more, it's the pilots. :ok:

stuckgear
5th Oct 2011, 13:37
I accept that I'm leaving aside the possibility that LU's management may be cowardly and inept, but you could argue that is also a result of marker forces.


That's a distinct possibility, however the reality could just as well be; do they really give toss?

RMT wants huge wages for it's largely 'inert' drivers...
they get it..
LU increases passenger fares to cover the additional costs incurred, maybe even a bit more too for some price gouging under the excuse of the unions demands.

Passengers pay more for tickets.. what choice do they have? None.


London Underground, Adult fare, single journey, Zone 1 - 4.00 UK Pnds or4.64 Euros or 6.18 USD (Increasing to 12.30 UK zones 1 through 9)

Paris Metro - Single Journey 1.60 Euro's or 1.38 UK Pnds

New York Metro - single journey 2.50 US or 1.62 UK Pnds

I *still* have yet to hear any justifiable reason why inert tube drivers warrant a salary that is double the national average.

So, Sack the lot of them and automate. Londoners are fed up with being held to ransom by the likes of Bob Crow and pi$$ poor manangement.

.

Checkboard
5th Oct 2011, 14:42
Heavy Goods Vehicle (Cat C) drivers course: 5 days, £895, earn £18-20k/year

General Domestic Electrician's course: 17 days, £2,295 (+ tools & van), earn ~£25-35k/year

General Domestic level 2 Plumbing course: 10 weeks, £4,795 (+ tools & van), earn ~£30-40k/year

Level 3 Plumbing and Gas Engineer course: 20 weeks, £12,975 (+ tools & van), earn ~£35-45k/year

Earnings, of course are rough average values - but you can live anywhere you like, be your own boss, work business hours & holidays (don't underestimate how much this means!), and earnings can be much higher running a successful business (and much lower with an unsuccessful one!).

CPL pilot, with ATPL subject passes (modular): 2-3 years, £40,000 (+ type rating), earn ~£15-25k/year?

An employee for the rest of your life, forced to live where the airports are (very commonly in a foreign country), getting up at 3 am or home at 1 am, and never seeing a weekend or having a public holiday (like Christmas) off. Your license will be on the line every six months, and totally worthless in the event of any of a dozen common medical conditions. Those lucky ones who make medium sized jet captain (which takes about 5-7 years currently but could be MUCH longer - in the USA it's 12+ years) make ~£100k

Train driver: 22 weeks (London Underground) to 48 weeks (GNER), paid ~£15k while training, earn ~£30-50k

It has to be said ...

McGoonagall
5th Oct 2011, 14:45
Perhaps I can give a bit of background to the Tube and Mainline train drivers salary. When BR was taken outside and shot in 96/97 all drivers were paid around £11K. However, there was in place an archaic and complicated structure of additional payments such as : Time + 12.5%, 25%, 75%, 100%, mileage payments, booking on/off allowances, average pay and a good few more. These pushed up the underlying figure to about £20/22K and more in some cases. Private companies undertook a restructuring and streamlining of salaries and settled at around the £25K mark in 1997, inclusive of all allowances excluding overtime payments and Sundays if not contracted to work them.

The private companies then realised the cost of training drivers to replace natural wastage and to cover new services was prohibitive and time consuming. (As an aside, I was partly responsible for training 15 ab-initio drivers about four years ago and the unit cost was about 25% more than putting someone in a RHS with all the boxes ticked.) The companies then (as now) resorted to using higher driver salaries across the company to attract other qualified drivers to join them. The unions have consistently asked companies to recruit enough drivers to eliminate rest day working and excessive overtime. The management soon worked out that it was cheaper to pay enhanced rates and rely on the goodwill of the traincrew to help them out rather than recruit. This is why some services at weekends are cancelled through lack of traincrew. We need some quality time off too. If the depot establishment was up to strength, trains would run.

As for the tube drivers salary. Starting with the salary in 1997 and compounding it by the February RPI each year gives us a projected salary level today of £37250 compared with the actual of £42500. Hardly an excessive increase given the years of low inflation. At the risk of inducing a few coronaries the tube drivers salary is in the middle of train drivers salaries. Eurostar - £57K, Virgin/East Coast/XC bobbing about £51/52. These are basic without Sunday payments, overtime, rest days worked etc.

Don't forget, to pay these salaries (or risk losing drivers and have to train their own) the TOCs will resort to almost anything to protect their profits and shareholders dividends. Cut support staff, introduce automation at ticket offices and gates, increase fares as much as they can. Switch to Driver Operated Only trains like the ones I drive (12 cars long, up to 900 punters in the peak, at 100mph and just me and you lot). Fortunately, any cost cutting measures that will cause your safety to be compromised are challenged vigorously and that is what the majority of disputes are about. Not salaries.

Apologies for rambling.

M.Mouse
5th Oct 2011, 15:05
I do hate it when someone who knows what they are talking about introduces facts.

mixture
5th Oct 2011, 15:15
at 100mph and just me and you lot

Not wishing to get into a slanging match, but ....

You're still on the ground.
You're still on a railway track moving in one dimension (forwards, backwards or stopped)
You've still got all the railway signalling and railway safety measures that can stop the train if you have a heart attack / go nuts etc.
You can still stop where you are in the event of mechanical issues.
You can still call for assistance in event of any of a myriad of problems.

In the air, you've got none of that. Its the two flightcrew at the pointy end, and that's it. Mechanical issues and it's their job and nobody else's to get the thing back on the ground.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to portray your job in a negative light. I just object to the old argument that the unions bring up the whole time about the tube driver being the one that does everything !

sitigeltfel
5th Oct 2011, 15:42
While I think £50k is over the top, there are others who think it is fair. With the London Olympics looming, is anyone willing to bet that the drivers won't make another attempt at blackmail just before the event is due to begin?

How many kids wake up in the morning having dreamt of being a tube driver? Very few I would imagine. Maybe they have heard that this is one of the scenarios they may have to face....

Suicide on the Tube - TIME (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1827064,00.html)

Flypuppy
5th Oct 2011, 15:45
Pilots have to undergo a great deal of expensive training, which they end up paying off for years after they've landed their first job in the right hand seat. The level of responsibility pilots have is far greater than your run of the mill tube driver will ever see in his lifetime on the rails.

In essence, I guess what I'm trying to say is .... if I had to pick between the two as to who should be paid more, it's the pilots.

Well, I don't know if you are seeing the picture yet, but, what it boils down to is that Train Drivers have a union that fights to maintain terms and conditions for it's membership.

BALPA and the IPA have consistently rolled over and let the airlines give them a shafting without any vaseline to ease the pain.

Do you think the rail unions would allow private individuals to go to their local preserved railway line and get drivers qualifications on a steam train and then pay Virgin to let these people drive their shiny trains? How quickly do you think the RMT would stop that?

At the moment that is how pilot training happens in the UK, and what are BALPA doing about it? Absolutely nothing, that's what.

Whilst the right whingers on this thread may hate unions, they have brought a good many laws onto the statute books protecting workers rights, and in this case have just proved that they can look after their membership. I cannot ever remember any pilot union actually going the distance to take strike action in defence of T&Cs

mixture
5th Oct 2011, 15:52
BALPA and the IPA have consistently rolled over and let the airlines give them a shafting without any vaseline to ease the pain.

At the moment that is how pilot training happens in the UK, and what are BALPA doing about it? Absolutely nothing, that's what.

I am aware of the various goings on in the airline industry, yes.

And I should point out I made my point of view clear on the matter a few post above (although I could have obviously gone into more detail as to my thoughts on the matter, I chose to summarise it in simple terms) :

In essence, I guess what I'm trying to say is .... if I had to pick between the two as to who should be paid more, it's the pilots.

But this thread was about tube drivers, not flightcrew. So let's not let it drift off-topic, there are plenty of other threads on prune' on flightcrew and their pay and conditions.

Sallyann1234
5th Oct 2011, 15:58
RE: Suicide on the Tube

A very sad story. But let us remember that the tube driver had only to call for help over his radio.
It was the ambulance staff who had to scrape up the pieces. On much lower pay.

McGoonagall
5th Oct 2011, 15:59
You are right. I never mentioned any of the above points as it is a waste of space getting into a who's got the biggest dick argument.

What needs to be established is not why the rail drivers salary is as it is but rather how the airline salaries have been allowed to degrade. The aspiration of so many young people to be ATPL holders can only be applauded. However, supply will almost always exceed demand and this drives down salaries as after spending shed loads of cash new boys/girls will bite hands off just for a foot on the ladder. The bean counters love it and will continue to screw the maximum out of them as is possible. FTOs have to take some responsibility by telling the ab-initio the truth, stark and simple, but it does not generate business.

The railway however is reluctant to have to train and shoulder the costs. There is no equivelent of an FTO on the railway. Therefore only the drivers that are needed are trained and no more. Incidentally, for the 15 vacancies at a former company we insisted that candidates visit a roadshow on one of three days in the local area to be able to pick up an application form. Some travelled over 300 miles to pick up a form. Over 700 were issued. 100 were invited for psychometrics and testing, 27 passed for final reaction testing, 9 passed. Some were recalled to get the final 15.

The privatisation/de-regulation of the airlines has led to lower initial salaries and a loss of terms and conditions while the opposite has happened on the railway. I can only put this down to strong trade unionism on the railway and an apathetic stance from the pilots union. It is easy to sit at the top of the Capt or FO pay scale and protect your own lifestyle, it is a lot harder to get involved to protect the newbies. On the railway all drivers are on the same rate within the company from the young lad in his 20s up to the silly old bugger with only a month to do. The incentive then is to protect everyone as decisions affect everyone.

Personally I can not see where the answer lies on how to get the FO or even the TP Capt onto a rate that their job reflects. Better brains than mine needed.

Krystal n chips
5th Oct 2011, 16:50
Mr McG.....I echo the sentiments of others for your excellent posts on this topic.....:ok:

Possibly you could expand further however ( this is just personal interest and with no agenda ) regarding the career of a Tube driver.

It is my understanding that TFL / London Underground recruit drivers on an internal basis, Thus they will have had to have worked in another capacity first, possibly, for example as station staff dealing with every " eclectic example of humanity" ( that's the polite term ) on a daily basis...not my idea of fun I have to say.

I also wonder about their health issues driving underground, in a repetitive task environment, as well as eyesight issues caused by the continuous changes of light to dark to light in addition to natural degradation. How many actually make it to retirement age ?

As I say, just curious as I feel the salary is warranted and again I wonder how many on here would consider driving a Tube as a career ?

mixture....fair point re the choices / lifestyle illustrated and the cost of housing, but even allowing for a more modest lifestyle, the cost of living ( or existing ) in London is higher is it not ?

And finally, thank you SG, I will treasure the award....alas, I cannot match your class of polemic... brother ! . :D:E

McGoonagall
5th Oct 2011, 17:21
I'll qualify my reply by saying I'm an overground mainline driver that does drive over the former LUL section to Moorgate. As far as I know it is internal recruitment only. The darkness driving and constant changing of light environment has never bothered me and the only eye problem is the usual age related presbyopia. Quite a few drivers do not make it to retirement whether by promotion out of the grade, early retirement or medical issues. The train drivers medical is very similar to a CAA Class 1 without the spirometry or advisory tests, however the period between tests is longer. Full pension retirement on the LUL is 60 with possible retirement at 50 (this may have changed to 55 in line with pension age changes.) LUL would not be for me I'm afraid.

Pappa Smurf
5th Oct 2011, 23:57
Over 100k pounds for driving ore trains in Aus

Takan Inchovit
6th Oct 2011, 06:13
Boy, you should 'ere the 'ores moan if the train dont stop.

radeng
6th Oct 2011, 12:26
I'm not convinced about getting rid of the driver and automating everything. With over 50 years in electronics, I know the cost of making really reliable kit, and a driver is probably cheaper. Remember the Eurostar that broke down because it was cold and the tunnel was warm and humid? Even avionics which is built to a pretty high standard has fits at times.....which is why you need two guys called 'pilots'.

ZH875
6th Oct 2011, 12:38
London Tube Drivers to get £50,000.


Maybe you should have done better at school.

GroundedSLF
6th Oct 2011, 14:52
In the articles I have read on the subject, Bob Crow is reported to have said "the issue of a payment for working during next year's Olympic Games in London was separate to the four-year wage deal"...

The mind boggles...why should somebody get an additional payment in excess of their normal salary because a sporting event is taking place? Oh, hang on, because they can!

I doubt you would find anybody who uses the tube on a daily basis as a passenger thinking that this was an acceptable salary. Users of the tube every day are sick of the poor service, lack of clean stations/carriages, delays, overcrowding etc etc.

The sad fact is that the RMT can hold London to ransom - there is no practicle alternative to using the tube - buses take longer, and taxis are more expensive, and the RMT know it.

While it is interesting to see on hear that paying these salaries is still cheaper than training new recruits, this will not always be the case. Surely there must be a tipping point when it becomes financially benificial for LUL to train a recruit and offer a starting salary of £25k, with your typical 2% yearly rise?

Ancient Observer
6th Oct 2011, 15:33
Mr McG. I think you should be banned for introducing real facts in to a thread that clearly requires the unexpurgated prejudices of JetBlast to be blurted out uninhibited by knowledge.
But thanks anyway.

That Crow bloke does a better job than many TU officials. However, his 150k plus cheap council housing and unlimited expenses is the target for Tube drivers.

How such a fat, ugly, Millwall supporting Trot can earn 150k with a straight face is beyond me.

McGoonagall
6th Oct 2011, 15:46
People are beginning to confuse LUL with the national rail system. They are separate entities working to different rules, regulation, signalling etc.

Users of the tube every day are sick of the poor service, lack of clean stations/carriages, delays, overcrowding etc etc.Staff are sick of it too. LUL management are intent on reducing manning levels in ticket offices, barrier staff, platform staff, depot cleaners etc... The majority of LUL disputes by the RMT are over these matters, not drivers pay. Drivers will become involved if they think your safety and well being is at risk due to staffing cuts. If a station is unmanned trains can not stop there. Overcrowding can be reduced by running more trains. This will need a more up to date signalling system to allow for shorter signal sections (one section = one train) and more rolling stock and more drivers. Drop Boris an e-mail and let him know.

While it is interesting to see on hear that paying these salaries is still cheaper than training new recruits, this will not always be the case. Surely there must be a tipping point when it becomes financially benificial for LUL to train a recruit and offer a starting salary of £25k, with your typical 2% yearly rise? On LUL with its much shorter training period and unique system is not the same as the national railways and there can be no direct recruitment from one to the other without undergoing a full training course. As for recruitment and employment on different terms. Dream on. Same job - Same rate. That would be one of two issues (the other being final salary pensions) that would see major disruptions.

As for the Olympics, Uncle Bob is full of bollix and bluster. If you think for one minute that the majority of his members are of the same mind set, political viewpoint and willingness to walk out on the slightest pretext then you are sadly mistaken. It has been stated before that LUL drivers (not my company) will receive an average of £500 before tax for 4 weeks of what essentially will be 24 hr running and changed shift patterns.

AO. Suitably chastened. See that Bob Crow? Id 'ave im in a fight.

stuckgear
6th Oct 2011, 16:22
McG,

Your involvement and levity in the thread is appreciated, I noted prior to your posting in JB, your posts in the T&E thread of a similar nature.

However, i note that despite the union rhetoric and the explanation of the politics of the LU and national rail system, I still have yet to see any justification that presents that a tube driver salary warrants give or take, double the national average salary.

Look, i'm not having a pop at you personally, and good luck to you, if you can take home that kind of salary, then *you* have to look after you and yours.

As I noted earlier in the thread the harsh reality is that no matter what the overheads incurred are by LU they will simply be passed on to the consumer, that is those who have no option but to but submit themselves the overpriced poop that is commuting on LU, when comapred to say the paris metro or new york metro (comparitive prices, including exchange rate conversions already posted).

Unfortunatley Red Bob, knows this and management is, well, pretty shoddy anyway so the ones that suffer are those that have no choice in 'service' and so commuting london is in effect held to ransom by Red Bob himself and his representation.

It's really not who has the biggest dick argument but a simple case of what does the job entail that demands such a high salary.

That is my simple question ?

McGoonagall
6th Oct 2011, 17:20
OK, I'll try to explain as an overground national rail driver which has obvious comparisons with tube drivers. The actual physical task of driving a train is not that difficult in good conditions with considerable practice. As with any job it is the underpinning knowledge that has to be attained, maintained and is continually assessed and periodically examined. it can be broken down into a few categories. First is an intimate knowledge of the 'Rule Book'. Bit of a misnomer as it consists of over 50 modules covering every eventuality and requirement to operate trains on the network and runs to two A5 binders stuffed full. Secondly, knowledge of each traction unit you drive. Electrical, air, braking, mechanical, domestics, fault finding and fixing. I have had 8 different traction types as current knowledge at one time. Thirdly, route knowledge. You have to prove an intimate knowledge of every signal, junction, speed restriction, siding, station, gradient, areas of low adhesion, overbridge, underbridge, level crossing, farm crossing, telephone and others on that route before you can drive over it. Knowledge of 25kv overhead and 750vDC systems, isolation procedures etc.

This underpinning knowledge is not exhaustive and other subjects are Human Factors, fire safety/evacuation/tackling, customer service, dealing with aggression, first aid/CPR. This lot takes about 8 months in the classroom. Two annual assessments, bi-annual examination.

Then the driving part. It may sound laughable but actually starting and stopping the bleedin thing with bad railhead conditions is a skillful art. The consequences of not stopping in the right place do not bear thinking about. Sliding on a contaminated track with no braking action towards a signal at danger which protects a junction tightens the old sphincter somewhat. It takes a lot of practice.

So, the answer to your question has to be. Responsibility. The job entails responsibility for (in my case) up to 800 punters, getting them there in one piece as on time as I can. Responsibility for them in case it goes tits up and I need to make sure they are safe and don't come to any harm by forcing doors open and jumping down onto another line where 125 mph trains are running (yep, happened to me).

Also, putting up with being bricked, bottled, shot at with a 4/10, spat at, threatened with a knife, a French stick (pissed meself at that one), verbally and taking two people into another world.

FWIW, for the tube drivers wages I wouldn't put up with it. :E

stuckgear
6th Oct 2011, 18:26
McG,

Thanks for the reply. To be honest i still don't see anything warrants a double the national average salary. Sorry, but i really don't.

As a comparative example, my wife works in the NHS, in cardiology, so not in an A$E role (so she doent deal with the blood and guts), her department deals with booked appointments. So far, this year, she's been spat at, hit, hit on, sexually assaulted, threatened (also by a violent prisoners on remand), pissed on, deals with death regularly, had a couple of patients crash both with survival and not; her job requires a specific medical degree with a minimum pass grade standard, intimate knowledge of not just human physiology, not also the equipment, but also third party equipment from several pacemaker manufacturers and the associated equipment and she sure as sh*t would love a 35 hour week and she doesn't even make half of what the tube driver salary is, even if London weighting was thrown in. I could go on, but i'm sure you get the picture.

One of her colleagues husband is firefighter, we don't need to go through what they deal with day in, day out, he is based in London so gets London weighting and is on about half of what the tube drivers are on and he perpetually worried for his job as the station has been under threat of closure for some time as it may be merged with another station. if it is, he will probably be relocated somewhere else, out of commuting distance so will be worse off as he'll have to quit or find accommodation during the working week, which they as a couple can not afford..

Seriously, i do appreciate your run down, but still see no reason that justifies the salary. I suspect that the union reps are far removed from what salaries are in a competitive commercial environment and what the country survives on, seeing only the largess of the union bosses; either that or they are just squeezing the golden goose till it squeaks.

Mr Chips
6th Oct 2011, 19:15
I used to be a restaurant manager, I was physically and verbally abused, dealt with drunks every day, overflowing toilets, worked till 3am etc etc for a low wage

We can compare jobs ad nauseam (and why do we always go for NHS and Firemen - who work awesome hours for good pay - ?)

Simple fact is that the train drivers have negotiated high pay and if anyone else wants to earn that - apply for the job. Denigrating them as not worth the money is rather unfair...

stuckgear
6th Oct 2011, 19:30
Mr Chips,

if you care to read above, i was not denigrating the tube drivers or indeed McG himself. If you care read above i have thanked McG expressly for his input and levity. The point is, is that no matter what the overheads LU is saddled with, it will invariably be passed to the commuters of London who have no alternative to the tube, nor is it in a commercially competitive environment. And currently the costs to use LU as it is are way above those of comparative cities, more than double.

In a competitive environment, wages are usually dictated by ability to perform the job and the functions contained within, does it require and engineering degree at say 2:2 or above from a recognised UK university for example ? Does it require a period of apprenticeship prior to becoming a driver ? does it require x years of experience in a specific field before being able to become a driver ?

Mr Chips
6th Oct 2011, 19:34
To be honest i still don't see anything warrants a double the national average salary. Sorry, but i really don't.

does it require and engineering degree at say 2:2 or above from a recognised UK university for example ? Does it require a period of apprenticeship prior to becoming a driver ? does it require x years of experience in a specific field before being able to become a driver ?

You do seem intent on telling us that these train drivers are not worth the salary...

radeng
6th Oct 2011, 19:36
Aren't we getting close to the old James Watt story?

Called to fix a steam engine, he borrowed a hammer and clouted. He then sent in a bill for a guinea: the mill owner objected saying his blacksmith could have done that for nothing. Watt responded with a new bill


"To hitting with hammer: 6d
To knowing where to hit: 20/6d"


In the same way that I can charge £100 an hour plus expenses for consultancy in my field. (or £500 a day for a longer contract)

Which is also why the nurses are grievously underpaid, and too many managers are grievously overpaid - especially at BAA.

stuckgear
6th Oct 2011, 19:45
Chips,

No, one is a statement in that i dont see any justification for a salary at some twice the national average. i really dont.

the others are questions i am asking in order to determine what perhaps it may be that separates LU drivers from the national average salary to being worth double in order to dtermine if it is a result of strong union/weak management or if LU drivers have some specific ability or required educational level not available that separates them from the population?

Flypuppy
6th Oct 2011, 20:14
No, one is a statement in that i dont see any justification for a salary at some twice the national average. i really dont.looks like that is your problem then. Train drivers have protected their terms and conditions through a strong union and collective bargaining.

You obviously detest unions, but the reality of the situation is that train drivers have decided what they are worth and their management have agreed with them.

Flypro
6th Oct 2011, 20:26
So what has changed?

When I got my pilots wings as a S/Lt RN in the early 1970's I distinctly remember that at the time a Tube driver was being paid more than me.

I didn't think it particularly fair then and I don't now - but I wouldn't have swapped my job for ANYTHING, and I bet a Tube driver would not say that, then or now!

Checkboard
6th Oct 2011, 20:27
i am asking in order to determine what perhaps it may be that separates LU drivers from the national average salary to being worth double
There's your problem ;) Wages have NEVER been remotely connected to "worth". Life isn't fair.

Bronx
6th Oct 2011, 20:59
Flypuppy the reality of the situation is that train drivers have decided what they are worth and their management have agreed with them.

Agreed with them or given in to blackmail because they ain't got much choice?
Tube strikes cause chaos to London and affect millions people trying to get to and from work.

Flypuppy
6th Oct 2011, 21:10
Agreed with them or given in to blackmail because they ain't got much choice?hmmm maybe pilots could learn something from this...?

skydiver69
6th Oct 2011, 21:38
Tell you what though, now I know how much tube drivers earn I am never going to organise another whip round to give them a tip. Last time I did that I got some funny looks and now I know why!

ZOOKER
6th Oct 2011, 22:17
mixture,
"moving in one direction".
Not a lot of scope for avoiding action then if someone puts a low-loader on a level-crossing, or a Land Rover plops onto the track in front of you.
"you can still stop where you are",
At least a mile to stop an express I would have thought.
"You can still call for assistance in the event of a myriad of problems".
So can you, it's called Air Traffic Control.
I would not like to work in the extremely dark, dirty, smelly and dangerous environment of the London Underground.
Let's turn this around, Why are soldiers and nurses so poorly paid in relation to train drivers?

stuckgear
7th Oct 2011, 07:15
I would not like to work in the extremely dark, dirty, smelly and dangerous environment of the London Underground.



That sentance would stand alone if you dropped the last word :hmm:

Flypuppy,

for pilots to do the same would require a harder representation. perhaps Red Bob, could be a mouthpiece for BALPA ! :E

GroundedSLF
7th Oct 2011, 07:45
Its got nothing to do with how good Bob Crow and the Unions are at negotiating...after all, its fairly easy to negotiate when there is no other option:

Bob C "give us a 30% rise or we strike for 2 weeks"

Problem is, if that happens, billions is lost in the economy, and users of the service have no real viable alternative - so management bottle it, do some "negotiation", and agree to 25%...

If the same argument were to be had at any airline, then the reality is that the users of the service DO have alternatives, and will just book/rebook alternative airlines... Therefore management dont really bottle it, they try and tough it out, problem for them being that the airline lose millions, but the customers are not really that badly effected.

This is where competition (and I mean REAL competition) encourages lower costs for consumers - albeit probably not with the best results for those that work for said company who have to deal with the real world.

maliyahsdad2
7th Oct 2011, 08:02
meanwhile...


Tube drivers balloted for action - Home News, UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tube-drivers-balloted-for-action-2366931.html)


a poll on tube drivers pay here.

Opinion: London Underground drivers do not deserve £50k a year pay - Transport - London 24 (http://www.london24.com/news/transport/opinion_london_underground_drivers_do_not_deserve_50k_a_year _pay_1_1081561)

GroundedSLF
7th Oct 2011, 08:31
Quote from the second article mentioned above...

"Tellingly the new deal only offers the “prospect” rather than a guarantee of no strikes over pay so unions could accept this sweet deal and still cause havoc with industrial action further down the line."

So - anyone want to bet whether we will see the RMT calling for strike action within the next 4 years over pay?

wonder what odds you would get at the bookies....

stuckgear
7th Oct 2011, 08:36
wonder what odds you would get at the bookies....


10:1, maybe even Evens...

tony draper
7th Oct 2011, 08:52
Its disgraceful, I mean as soon as those nice London Bankers realized the public objected to their multi million pound bonuses they of course refuses to accept them anymore.
:rolleyes:

radeng
7th Oct 2011, 09:00
Mr McG doesn't mention the freight train drivers, who on single piped brake systems, need a lot of care and skill to avoid what the Americans call 'pissing away the air' and ending with little braking capability.

Ancient Observer
7th Oct 2011, 11:42
Who will take on the Tube drivers, and when?

Mrs T did not take on Scargill and the miners by accident. There was a very clear plan, laid in the mid-late 70's, (driven by the CEGB, and agreed to by some influential big Co.s) to take on the miners in the late 80's. The timing of 1984 was not the Government's choice, the timing was Scargill's choice - the Govt wanted the dispute a couple of years later. The plan was simple. Let the miners get a bit older, have a higher percentage married, a higher percentage with children, and a higher percentage with mortgages. Have some huge stocks of coal around the place. (One abandoned airport N of Man. rented by a large private sector Co. had more coal for private sector generating Co.s than they would ever need in a strike).
If Scargill had taken a vote on the strike, he might have won......but he refused to, which upset the very nice man who ran the Notts NUM.

Why am I going on about the NUM?

Someone, somewhere, has the plan to take on the Tube drivers and Crow.
It will be after the Olympics, and business will have been pre-prepared. Peston at the Beeb will have been briefed - altho' he's Labour, he doesn't like Crow. Other journos and paper owners will have been briefed, as will the big London employers. . At least one Official in Crow's Union will be ready to defect from a Crow cause. The initial dispute will put the management on the moral high ground, and will make Crow look uglier than ever. (Difficult, but possible)
The plan will be out there somewhere. You just need to know where to look.

Er, there was also a plan in Mrs T's time to take on the UK ATCOs, but she backed off that. The fact that the Govt backed off was her decision, personally.
UK ATCOs are now older, more married, more with mega mortgages and children, but have lost their militancy, so i guess we are safe from that one.

Sallyann1234
7th Oct 2011, 14:00
If only ....

Checkboard
7th Oct 2011, 14:23
Sop there's some airport in the north of England, where the government are building up a big stockpile of tube tunnels and trains... :E

I'd like to see that!

RedhillPhil
7th Oct 2011, 20:10
Mr McG doesn't mention the freight train drivers, who on single piped brake systems, need a lot of care and skill to avoid what the Americans call 'pissing away the air' and ending with little braking capability.

That's why B.R. developed the two pipe system where every vehicle had it's own brake air reservoir. Then someone decided to go back to the single pipe system (except for loco operated passenger trains) for cost and other reasons.

Tankertrashnav
7th Oct 2011, 20:40
So there's some airport in the north of England, where the government are building up a big stockpile of tube tunnels and trains... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif




No, London just has to go without the tube (or have a very limited service operated by managers, scab labour etc) for a while. Murdoch managed to break the print unions with the move to Wapping. There was never sufficient support for them as your average trade unionist hadnt the desire to strike in support of greedy print workers who wanted to sleep the night away for £500 a shift. The tube drivers haven't got that far yet, but ask your average bus driver on £25k if they will come out in support of a tube driver working half as hard for twice the money and guess what answer you'll get.

I reckon it would be a long haul, and pretty dire for London but worth it in the long term.

Cacophonix
7th Oct 2011, 20:49
I tend to avoid commenting on any type of drivers pay...

Can you imagine the brouhaha here if one was to suggest that certain pilots were paid too much for driving, er sorry, flying certain craft? ;)

I am glad that the tube jockeys are paid reasonably well even if their craft don't rock 30 degrees side to side (even if it feels like they do sometimes) and their excuses for being late, if not laconic in the good old BA style, are often amusing anyway!

Caco


vcTLHXyh0Fs

G-CPTN
8th Oct 2011, 15:42
I met a guy who lives in St Albans who drives London Underground trains.

He said that whenever he worked he was collected and delivered by taxi (paid for each way by London Transport).

I believe that some BBC staff enjoy similar privileges (paid for by the Beeb).

sitigeltfel
8th Oct 2011, 15:51
I believe that some BBC staff enjoy similar privileges (paid for by the Beeb).

Paid for by the licence fee payer, surely!

stuckgear
16th Dec 2011, 13:08
Boxing Day Tube strike: £50k-a-year drivers' triple pay demands are turned down | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2074032/Boxing-Day-Tube-strike--50k-year-drivers-triple-pay-demands-turned-down.html)

and for the lefties who will wail about the daily mail..

Tube drivers vote for Boxing Day strike | UK news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/dec/14/tube-drivers-boxing-day-strike?newsfeed=true)

mixture
16th Dec 2011, 13:23
Their behaviour is absolutely despicable.

£45k per year, 43 days annual leave, 37.5 hour working week, free travel throughout the year for them and their families.

What on earth makes them think they deserve any more money ?

TZ350
16th Dec 2011, 13:30
Just wait for Clarksons comments.....................;)

Time for martial law.

Capetonian
16th Dec 2011, 13:39
I can think of few things worse than driving a train, or rather, taking the responsibility and risk that it entails, on the London Underground. Then there's the smell, pollution, noise, changes from light to dark, and constant aggravation. Awful. It might not be the most highly skilled job in the world but it is undoubtedly demanding, unpleasant and stressful.

I don't think £50,000 is a lot for that. I am not justifying them going on strike though, that is not the way to solve problems.

mixture
16th Dec 2011, 13:43
I can think of few things worse than driving a train, or rather, taking the responsibility and risk that it entails, on the London Underground. Then there's the smell, pollution, noise, changes from light to dark, and constant aggravation. Awful.

That entire paragraph could be easily reworded - by changing only a couple of words - to look at things from a passenger perspective !

At least the drivers are being paid to put up with it, passengers have to pay them for the pleasure !

G-CPTN
16th Dec 2011, 14:15
London bus drivers are demanding extra pay for driving during the upcoming Olympics.

Bus drivers demand £500 for Olympics | News (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-24022330-bus-drivers-demand-pound-500-bonus-for-olympics.do)

stuckgear
16th Dec 2011, 14:28
The 28,000 staff claim they need the money just for turning up to work - because their buses will be so busy.


sack 'em. get some poles in instead.

maliyahsdad2
28th Feb 2012, 11:35
Looks like Boris has a plan!

Boris Johnson pledges to introduce driverless tube trains within two years - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/borisjohnson/9109481/Boris-Johnson-pledges-to-introduce-driverless-tube-trains-within-two-years.html)

"...Automatic Tube trains also run on the Victoria, Central and Jubilee lines, but they are still manned by drivers." :rolleyes:

"Mr Johnson has previously had to contend with 23 London Underground strikes during his four years in office"

Lon More
28th Feb 2012, 12:02
Boris Johnson pledges to introduce driverless tube trains within two years
Running from his house to Fantasy Island so that he can jet away to the Bahamas to look at his money? Hot air as usual. The idea of sitting in a driverless train between two stations after a power failure should squash that one flat. The system, unlike the DLR, was never built with that in mind.
Also at the New Bus for London, the concept looked great however what's being delivered is just a quick makeover of a Wright Gemini, albeit at an inflated price - wonder if he has shares in Wright?

Interesting series on UK tv about the Tube although I read somewhere that actors were involved.

ThreadBaron
28th Feb 2012, 14:04
I read somewhere that actors were involved

Equity would not have had it any other way ...

green granite
28th Feb 2012, 14:25
So far we have, for just turning up for their shift:

Workers at Virgin Trains and Network Rail will receive a £500 bonus, staff on the London Overground £600 and on the Docklands Light Railway up to £2,500.
And: Tube workers are to hold a strike ballot after rejecting a £500 bonus for working through the Olympics.

Ancient Observer
28th Feb 2012, 17:11
"working"

an interesting use of the word.

G-CPTN
28th Feb 2012, 18:24
When my son was five years old he visited my office where he climbed up into the chair, surveyed the desk and the telephone before announcing "So this is what you call work . . . "

To him, of course, he had only seen workmen digging holes and similar manual tasks, so when he was given the opportunity to visit Daddy's work he was, naturally, inquisitive as to what constituted 'work' for me. He knew that each day that I 'went to work' but needed to see for himself just what that entailed.

Brambleburr
7th Aug 2012, 22:19
Virgin Trains Drivers are divided over a new salary deal.

Even the unlikely event of Virgin losing the West Coast Rail Franchise hasn't made much of a difference to their thinking.

The Drivers are of the opinion that they don't really care who their employer is, as through their union ASLE&F they hold all the ace cards.
Especially with beardy Branson and his Anti-Union activities in the US.

*Memo to BALPA*

Details are still sketchy but the jist of the deal is productivity improvements including Sundays part of their working week(Currently O/T)

The union has secured 156 days rest days plus their 38 Annual leave days per annum. Giving them over six months of the year free of duty.

12 months full salary when on sick leave.

Maximum day length of 8hrs 45m. Max week length 34 hrs from Dec 2012.

Apprenticeship scheme for recruitment purposes.

First Base offer of £65,000 already rejected.

Tell me chaps are we in the wrong industry

Krystal n chips
8th Aug 2012, 04:11
"Even the unlikely event of Virgin losing the West Coast Rail Franchise"

Really ?. this is but one of many articles that would suggest otherwise.

FirstGroup trumps Virgin as frontrunner for west coast rail franchise | Business | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/29/firstgroup-trumps-virgin-rail-frontrunner?newsfeed=true)

Note however, that the on board service on Virgin Inter Cattle class could be reduced further to save a few £££'s....for the bearded one's benefit presumably.

Equally, the facts as you present them may well be correct albeit there is more than a hint of Mailitus contained in this presentation.

There are several posters on here who are very conversent with the Rail Industry as a whole, and whose posts are invariably factual and informative. Therefore they may well be able to offer more insightful views in contrast to the surface impression contained in your version.

Are "we in the wrong job".....seems like it doesn't it.

I would say that train drivers deserve their salaries ( before the "pinko G'dian. trots"etc mantra gets trotted out ) given the responsibility and complexities of their occupation.

stuckgear
8th Aug 2012, 08:15
Seeing as we are on this thread resurrection:


So all those train drivers, bus drivers, tube drivers that demanded a bonus, well, held the country to ransom demanding a bonus payment because their trains and busses were going soo busy (not that it nakes the blindest jot of difference)

will they then bve retuning their bonus payments ?

of course, unless the unions were actaully holding the country to ransom, they would be glad to.

Blacksheep
8th Aug 2012, 08:17
No pax. was ever present on a difficult, marginal ILS approach into, say, Calcutta at night during the Monsoon, when one really earned ones' salary. That depends on the airline. In Nepal, passengers were frequently present on the flight deck for the approach into Kathmandu and were no doubt impressed by the experience. I know I was.

Krystal n chips
9th Aug 2012, 16:55
Well this could prove interesting for those of us who travel by train that is.

FirstGroup set to win Virgin's west coast rail franchise | Business | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/aug/08/firstgroup-rail-transport)

That "in the unlikely event" comment...sounds just like one of those pax briefings..:cool:

Ancient Observer
9th Aug 2012, 17:01
I rather liked the Virgin service up to Macc and M/cr.....Even during the timetable-challenging re-laying of lots of the track.

I'm not sure that the goons who run Worst great Western should be allowed near it.
Worst Great Western have mucked up what should be a decent line.