RAF funeral question

[Bitmap]

Hi, I'm not military but have an enquiring mind and have enjoyed lurking here for a while. My brother was in the RAF and he was killed in the early 80's, when off duty; He is written in the book at St Clement Danes but not on the new national memorial wall as he was off duty. I was recently talking to someone about him and about the funeral and in hindsight the RAF seemed to go to quite a big effort. We had the 'knock on the door' with an officer from the local RAF station and for his funeral the following week a high ranking Chaplin flew in to take the service, his uniformed colleagues were also there and served as pall bearers. We had a union flag on the coffin, there was a bugler and they arranged a flypast from the local UAS, I believe it was. I was very proud of him and the RAF involvement in his funeral really cemented that and his memories. He was 'just' an SAC with about seven years service. I was just wondering if this was the normal level of support they gave to the families, I hadn't really thought about it that way before.

[Ken Scott]

If you die whilst serving, whatever the cause - off or on duty -you're entitled to full military honours.

[Old-Duffer]

Queens Regulations used to have a table of what you were entitled to at your funeral and depending on your rank. Nowadays, it's more of an arrangement made with the deceased's family as to what they would like and what can be provided and within the bounds of good taste and possibility.

We have all seen the way in which service personnel are repatriated from overseas but in a sense, that's the tip of the iceberg.

Every deceased person's family is assigned a 'Visiting Officer' - it used to be called the 'Effects Officer'. This person provides the liaison between the service and the family and is there to help with all the many issues which arise.

In June I attended the memorial service for a retired officer, who was then an RAF Reserve officer. He had been cremated earlier that day and at the end of the service, the air experience flight/UAS did a flypast over the church. As it was a beautiful early summer day, it was a fitting end to a wonderful service, which had been arranged by the family and the officer's work colleagues. I hope they pack the church out when it's my turn: but I doubt it, as this guy was a character who lived live to the full.

Old Duffer

[Pontius Navigator]

OD, similarly I attended such a ceremony at Bury St Edmunds. While the immediate commander was army the RAF managed the ceremony. The firing party was absolutely perfect with 3 volleys with a single bang each time. There was a flypast by Tornadoes from Marham. I don't know how many as they were above cloud but they were low and spot on time.

It really was a most moving occasion. The widow was ex-WRAF.

[Pontius Navigator]

He is written in the book at St Clement Danes but not on the new national memorial wall as he was off duty.

On a cold May day last year we visited St Clement Danes about an hour before it closed for the day. In the event it had already closed but we could see someone moving about inside. We found the right door, the one with the worn knob, and waited. One by one the lights were switched off and the door opened to reveal the caretaker wh was closing early having had no visitors that day.

One of our party had travelled from Canada and we had come from up North. When he realised we were not casual tourist he bade us enter and we spent the next hour being guided around, looking for the sqn badge of the Canadian's uncle and the MiLs wartime boyfriend.

It was well worth the visit and many thanks to the lonely caretaker.

[soddim]

He was 'just' an SAC with about seven years service.

Nobody in the RAF is any less important as a person because of rank. In my 36 years I knew many great personalities of all ranks.

[Tankertrashnav]

Well said Soddim, ACM or SAC we're all the same once we're in our boxes, although there may be a few more brass hats in evidence at the former's funeral.

Seriously, Bitmap, I'm pleased to hear your brother was sent off in a fitting manner, the last service funeral I attended was a local ATC officer who was killed in a motorbike accident - and he had the full treatment, even as a "part-time" officer.

On a lighter, and I hope not disrespectful note, I am always intrigued by the term "full military honours". Are there any other sort; partial military honours for example? Or just a few?

[racedo]

whatever the cause - off or on duty

I thought once you joined up you were on duty so to speak.

Remember in the pub one evening a squaddie get teased a bit as think he was on a weeks leave and was 3rd time (so it was claimed ) he was in.

Landlord was ribbing him about it about being a part time soldier when beautiful reposte was "When I put my life on the line on behalf of HM Govt I didn't realise I could just do 9-5, was it like that when you were a squaddie", Landlord who was ex force went very quiet and apologised.

[Old-Duffer]

TTN is absolutely right.

When the (then) Imperial War Graves Commission was formed, one of the first things they set down was that there would be standard symbols of commemoration, to reflect the 'equality of sacrifice'. For those with a known and marked grave it's a stone 2'6" in height by 1'3" wide (or something like that). The various nations commemorated have a slightly different top to the headstone and British dead outside the war period also have a slightly different headstone top.

Whether you are Field Marshal The Lord Ismay or Private Bloggs, you are recognised equal before your God.

An interesting aside, I recall that at the funeral procession of a terrorist in Northern Ireland in the early '70s, the cortage was saluted by the Army personnel on security duties and I know that enemy personnel who were killed in UK were accorded an honorable burial and a lasting commemoration, as witness the Cannock Chase German cemetery.

This is far cry from the Indonesian Army, who left the remains of my friend in a jungle swamp in Borneo and murdered the three prisoners they captured alive.

O-D

[Bitmap]

Thanks for all the replies, they have been very helpful. I'm sorry about the formatting in the orignal post, the line breaks didn't seem to go through.

Pontius Navigator - I managed a visit last year. The chaplin(?) there was very helpful and friendly, he opened the book for me on his page and then gave me some time - a very moving visit for me. I made sure they had a decent collection that day.

soddim - I put the just in quotes, it possibly came across not as I meant it.

Thanks again for your time. I really do hope that they continue with that level of support for breavments and it isn't something that will get affected with the defence cuts.

[Warmtoast]

Bitmap

In an erlier thread I recorded my recollections of RAF funerals abroad.

See here: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/454937-raf-funerals-earlier-era.htm

To expand on Old-Duffer's comments on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission Cemeteries and headstones used another photo from my album to show what they look like at a cemetery in Sri Lanka and my notes about it.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/TrincomaleeWarGraveCemetery.jpg



I was stationed at RAF China Bay in Ceylon (Sri Lanka) in 1957 and didn't know until a visit in 2002 that a war graves cemetary existed in Trincomalee, just across the bay from China Bay where I was stationed.

One of the far-flung Commonwealth War Graves Commission Cemeteries is the Trincomalee Commonwealth War Graves Commission Cemetery in north eastern Sri Lanka which is one of six commonwealth war cemeteries in Sri Lanka.

The Trincomalee cemetery was originally the Combined Services Cemetery, but was taken over by the Admiralty from the military in April 1948 for use as a permanent naval cemetery. On the withdrawal of UK Forces from Ceylon (Sri Lanka) in 1957 it became the property of the Sri Lanka Government who granted the Commonwealth War Graves Commission security of tenure in perpetuity. Save for a few post-war and non-war graves it is purely a war cemetery. The non-war graves are those of men of the Merchant Navy whose death was not due to war service and of civilians, of whom some were employees of the Admiralty; while the post-war graves were dependents of servicemen, civilian employees of the Admiralty and dependents of such employees. The cemetery contains 360 named graves and 4 unknown.
As expected most graves contain the remains of naval servicemen who died when the Japanese bombed the Royal Naval Eastern Fleet base at Trincomalee in April 1942. (Photo taken in May 2002 shows the caretaker responsible for the upkeep of the cemetery holding the cemetery visitors book and very proud to show visitors the entry signed by Princess Anne that she made on a visit to Trinco, date unknown).


I also have a photo of a service funeral procession taken at RAF Negombo in 1956/7 of a serviceman who committed suicide (a sergeant fired a Very pistol into his mouth), so suicides were accorded the same rites as normal and accidental deaths.

[Whenurhappy]

The 'equality in death' - friend or foe - can be occasionally testing. At a northern ADGE unit about 20 years ago, an NCO committed suicide by hanging himself from a railway bridge, whilst wearing various female garments. Further investigations of his background revealed some pretty awful activities that his wife and family where unaware of. Nonetheless, and quite rightly, he was awarded a full military funeral, but there was quite a bit of chuntering around the station at the time, by personnel questioning the approriateness of this service recognition. Tricky

[DC10RealMan]

It is coincidental that this subject has come up on Pprune as last weekend I was standing in the churchyard at Benningborough where the military graves from RAF Linton upon Ouse are buried.
There is an military plot with standard CWGC headstones but amidst those military rows are two civilian headstones of military personnel which are in a state of dilapidation. One is of a young Sergeant Pilot who was killed in 1939 and the other is of Group Captain Frank Garraway who was killed in a Luftwaffe air raid on Linton in 1941 and who after whom the "Garraway Room" in the Officers Mess is named.

I know that with defence cuts nowadays personnel are at a premium but I thought it might be respectful if the existing RAF personnel from Linton took a few hours off to clean up the two civilian graves.

[November4]

It is coincidental that this subject has come up on Pprune as last weekend I was standing in the churchyard at Benningborough where the military graves from RAF Linton upon Ouse are buried.
There is an military plot with standard CWGC headstones but amidst those military rows are two civilian headstones of military personnel which are in a state of dilapidation. One is of a young Sergeant Pilot who was killed in 1939 and the other is of Group Captain Frank Garraway who was killed in a Luftwaffe air raid on Linton in 1941 and who after whom the "Garraway Room" in the Officers Mess is named.

I know that with defence cuts nowadays personnel are at a premium but I thought it might be respectful if the existing RAF personnel from Linton took a few hours off to clean up the two civilian graves.

The graves are still classed as war graves even if marked with private headstones and as I understand it, the CWGC will place a standard war grave headstone to mark the grave once the private one has deteriorated or if any family request it.

Found this in "Courage Remembered"

These privately (and frequently privately marked) war graves are inspected by the Commission's staff. If the marker is found to have deteriorated, the Commission offers to replace it with a standard Commission headstone, at it's own expense. Next of kin frequently offer to accept this offer, as not only is a new headstone supplied, but maintenance then becomes the Commission's responsibility for all time.

[Old-Duffer]

I discovered the private graves of William Rhodes-Moorhouse VC and his son (who had a DFC) in a private plot at Beaminster Dorset about 30 years ago.

Fortunately, I was able to get the IOT at Cranwell to add it as a project for one of their officer cadet projects and the graves plot was cleaned up. I also gave the local ATC sqn a sum of money to get suitable plants and they agreed to look after the plot - I wonder if they are still doing so??!!

Old Duffer

[November4]

O-D not sure how old this photo is on the 601 Sqn site

http://www.601squadron.com/images/rhodes-moorehouse_grave_1.jpg

[Geehovah]

It would be worthwhile if one of the admin gurus could post up the rules here. Most service personnel are no longer serving when they pass on. Every single one of them deserve a final send off.

Well said Soddim.

I guess I'll miss it but wouldn't it be nice to think that something flew past as you were popped into your last resting ground?

[Old-Duffer]

Thank you, November4,

The graves are on a hill at the rear of Parnham House in Beaminster, Dorset and the plot is enclosed by an iron fence (as can be seen).

I had to climb the fence and then search through many years of accumulated undergrowth to find the graves. Apparently, because it was a private plot, the owners of the house (an internationally renowned cabinet maker) were - I was told - not responsible or did not own the land. The care of the site had been entrusted to some local people but they were then either dead or unable to take care of the place.

Your photograph shows that the site has obviously been recovered to some reasonable standard but the bumpy ground shows that it had been neglected for sometime. I hope it is now being looked after as anyone's last resting place should be.

Old Duffer

[Tinribs]

I sometimes visit the Murmansk area and when weather conditions prevent my helicopter trip to the Kola I vist local places of interest

There are war graves at Murmansk from both world wars. They are maintained to an excellent standard

The local Russian people remember with gratitude out help during the second WW but of course our earlier "interference" is less well regarded

[Sneezy24]

My dad passed away last year, 2 days before he died he said 'get me a flypast for my funeral'.... My first thought was 'not going to happen'...

After he died, I called RAF Conningsby, spoke to the visitor liaison officer as I thought they might like to know. Dad was in 151 and 29 Squadrons in WW2 - 151 is disbanded but 29 is still going.

A bit later I had a phone call from the Squadron Leader saying they were doing what they could to arrange a flypast. After several e-mails, the funeral took place and bang on time, 2 Typhoons from 29(R) Squadron came over the hotel where we had the 'wake'... Dad would have been so please.

So, if you want a flypast, ASK!!!

[LeggyMountbatten]

"Every deceased person's family is assigned a 'Visiting Officer' - it used to be called the 'Effects Officer'. This person provides the liaison between the service and the family and is there to help with all the many issues which arise."

My recollection is that when I was an OC P2 in the 80s, I found that both should be appointed and so on the few occasions necessary and where I got (typically) squadron co-operation for both, I could have an experienced officer for VO and a more junior dealing with the effects. There was no need for the EO to meet the family but would deal with all the small, but important items, feeding to the VO for family contact. I never understood why so many places combined the jobs. I have a vague memory that in one case I used a holding officer as EO and it was done very well but of course that person would have been unsuitable to meet the family.

Prepared to be told that 30 year old memory is totally flawed, though.

[Pom Pax]

It was mentioned earlier that C.W.G.C. headstones where a standard design, however they are not despite similar appearance made of a standard material. When visiting Reichswald Forest Cemetery a few years ago the head gardener (IIRC a Canadian) explained that they had to use a different source of limestone due to the harsher German winter to that used in Normandy and this policy extended worldwide taking into account of local climatic conditions. Further this may explain why in the two cemeteries in Kanchanaburi (Thailand) tablets (http://www.cwgc.org/dbImage.ashx?id=3897) are used and not headstones, also the Gallipoli cemeteries use tablets.

[Cows getting bigger]

You only truly realise that the military is one big, close family after you leave.

Going back a few years to Bitmap's original post, there is no such thing as "just an SAC".

[Xercules]

Old Duffer,

I can vouch for IOT doing the good deed on those graves - I was the IOT Flt Cdr whose cadets did the cleaning. We were on our way to go shark fishing in Cornwall (herrings were the only sharks we caught though). If memory serves there were 2 old ladies who used to look after the graves but it was getting beyond them. They were delighted with our efforts and lent us some pictures and reports to go in the Project Report.

Time has flown by as it was actually in September 1980, on 45 IOT Cse, my second but first at Cranwell. The Project being Shark Fishing was the result of having a Marine Branch cadet on the Flight and a Sqn Cdr who was also Marine Branch. Our visit to the graves was as a sort of quid pro quo to be allowed to go so far afield.

[fincastle84]

During my many years on Nimrods I was privileged to be involved in the scattering of the ashes of 2 ex RAF personnel. On each occasion the padre conducted a short service over the intercom & at the correct moment the ashes were dispatched down one of the sonobuoy launch tubes. As you can imagine these were both very moving occasions.

Re flypasts, after my father in law (ex WW2 Wellington Wop Ag) passed away 3 years ago, the service was held in Salisbury before retiring to our local Hampshire pub for the wake. OC 206 Sqn at Boscombe kindly supplied a Tucano which gave a spectacular flypast & wing over, bang on cue.

A fitting send off for a fine gentleman.:ok:

[5aday]

My father David 'Pop' Morton Ex RAF Master Pilot, died in 2013 and on the 3rd July he would have been 94. For his birthday he went flying again - from the Old Tay Bridge in Perth and into the River Tay, his birthplace. I picked the spot as it was the area he used to fish as a boy and a resident of Perth. A lovely summer evening and loads of champagne afterwards in North Queensferry. He would have appreciated the humour of the moment.

[Wander00]

Back in the 60s I was hauled in to the Boss and told that as I was O i/c Guard of Honour I had just won the job of arranging the cremation at Norwich of a Flt Sgt who had died and had no relatives. As a 24 year old I found the whole prospect a bit daunting, until OC Regt and the SWO appeared offering "help and advice". The station gave the guy a first class send off and I was honoured to have been part of it.

[wings folded]

Around the time that the (then) wife or ex wife of the heir to the throne was killed and a funeral with incredible pomp was held, I helped a neighbour whose father had died.

A retired Squadron Leader.

He had been proud of his service, and I tried to organise some sort of RAF presence at his crematorium attendance. There was no shortage of RAF units in Norfolk at the time, but the best I was offered was a contingent from the Air Cadets.

They turned up 20 minutes after the commital. The next service was by then in progress.

At least his cap, epaulettes and medals were on the coffin, and civilian friends and neighbours had given suitably warm sending off remarks.

I was not impressed by the force's treatment of a loyal officer.

[Wander00]

WF - that is just not good enough.

[wings folded]

Wander00

I was deeply saddened by the treatment given to my good friend and neighbour.

He had been present at the signing of the armistice, had given loyal service to his squadron and his arm, and I was having to console his daughter against this lack of basic respect for a meritorious officer and basically decent bloke to boot, while seeing sycophantic outpourings of grief for a "personality".

I was upset by the contrast.

RIP, Jimmy.

[gzornenplatz]

And you only then realize that you are no longer a member.

[Old-Duffer]

Hindsight, as they say, is a wonderful thing.


I realise that the immediate aftermath of a death is not the time to always think straight and I find the case reported above to be embarrassing to me as a former serviceman and distressing to those involved.


Perhaps some pointers might help.


First, seek advice from the RBL and RAFA branches locally or SSAFA-Forces Help if preferred. This will lead to a union flag or RAF ensign at the very least to cover the coffin.


If there is an RAF base nearby, approach the Community Relations Officer as a first stop. If the individual has any squadron affiliations, approach the sqn association - if still active - or the sqn itself - if still in being.


A local air cadet unit might help with a uniformed presence but they are fairly tightly bound and have an approvals process to be followed to ensure the activity is authorised.


A sense of realism is also needed. I apologise if this is taken the wrong way but it helps to manage expectations in the current era.


If a civilian had worked for many years for the same company, which might have been taken over several times and in which few/none of the current workforce, knew the deceased person it is unlikely that anybody from the former employer would turn out. The only thing likely, is a possible letter of condolence afterwards. Upsetting and bitter though the pill is, the RAF is a similar organisation.


That said, there have been several recent cases reported in the press, where concerned individuals have managed to muster sizeable congregations to pay their respects to a deceased veteran, even when most did not know the person.


In all of this, the family's wishes are paramount. Two weeks ago I attended two funerals with service connections on following days. At the first, the deceased person had specified bright colours. At the second, an ATC contingent - with which the deceased was involved - paraded with their sqn banner and there was a good show of uniforms amongst those attending.


Old Duffer

[dctyke]

January 2012 a good friend of mine was buried with full honours and a Tornado fly past. He died in service with well over 30 yrs served. I visit the grave on a regular basis and am shocked that it still does not have a gravestone after two and a half years. I am not in contact with his next of kin, however at the time of burial was under the impression he would be getting a military headstone. Do any pruners have experiences of time scales for this sort?

[Vortex_Generator]

OD, the RAF Ensign should never be used to drape a coffin - Queens Regulations (RAF) (http://www.raf.mod.uk/downloads/qrs.cfm), part 1, para 165(7) - only the Union Flag.

[Wander00]

VG - very true

[Basil]

Nobody in the RAF is any less important as a person because of rank. In my 36 years I knew many great personalities of all ranks.
Agreed. When secondary duties were being allocated at RAF Cottesmore I had the good fortune to be made Officer i/c the Sub-aqua club. The members were pleased because the previous incumbent wasn't a diver and I thought they were, without exception, a great bunch.

[Yamagata ken]

Warmtoast

Your Trincomalee photo jogged a memory cell. Several years ago when on holiday in Sri Lanka, my partner and I came across a tiny graveyard for colonial ex-pats. So many dead, so young, and mostly died of (now) preventable diseases.

The groundsman could have been the brother of the chap in your photo. The graveyard was immaculate, and he was very proud to show us around. It was a labour of love for him. Respect.

[Tashengurt]

Following the death of an Airman in an RTC at Leuchars the burial party were selected from those that had just been drilling for the AOCs parade.
The funeral was terrible. Black armbands were issued but were too big and had no safety pins so they slipped down to our wrists as we marched.
The present arms saw several bayonets fly off and stick in the grass, quivering.
The volley of shots was ragged, without blank firing adapters most weapons failed to fire a second time.
After this the Regiment were tasked with all future funerals. :(

[XH175]

A few years ago I was involved with the change of a headstone for an Swiss/American ATA Pilot who was killed 7th Dec 1941.

The family could not be contacted at the time of his death but now had been visiting the grave since the early 60s.

When the new headstone was being cut to replace the damaged one the CWGC said that the family could add a few lines since this had not been possible when the original stone was cut.

The pilot had served in the USMC in the mid 1930s and the family wanted "Semper Fi" added. The CWGC agreed but asked them to get permission from the USMC.

On request, not only was permission given by return but it was also stated that the USMC would give military honours if the family wished.

Included in the reply was a copy of the USMC standing orders for funeral requests.

http://www.marines.mil/News/Messages/MessagesDisplay/tabid/13286/Article/109727/military-funeral-honors-support.aspx

Item 6 is probably the best line in a standing order I have ever seen.

"THERE ARE NO EX-MARINES. THERE ARE ONLY MARINES. THOSE OF US WHO CURRENTLY ARE HONORED TO WEAR THE UNIFORM MUST CONTINUE THE LONG LINE OF OUR PREDECESSORS IN UPHOLDING THE INTEGRITY OF THESE WORDS.
OUR SUPPORT OF FUNERAL HONORS FOR OUR MARINES WILL SPEAK LOUDER THAN ANY WORDS."

The final part in Item 3 is great USMC Commandant speak:

"MY EXPECTATION IS THAT THE SITUATIONS WHERE THE MINIMUM NUMBERS OF MARINES ARE USED WILL BE FEW AND BY EXCEPTION.

COMMANDERS WILL MAKE EVERY ATTEMPT TO PROVIDE MORE THAN THE MINIMUM DETAIL SIZE AS DICTATED BY OPS/PERS TEMPO."

Would that we also have a similar standing order!

Regards
Ross

[teeteringhead]

Sadly it doesn't always seem to be the case, but this Forum has been instrumental on a number of occasions in getting representation - often from Cadets who did make it on time - to the funerals of fallen comrades who apparently had no-one to mark their passing.

In a busy and ever more thinly spread regular RAF (now smaller than the Met Police :{) it increasingly falls to the volunteer of one sort or another to step up to the plate and provide the "light blue footprint".

Which they generally do extremely well........:ok:

[wings folded]

Old duffer,

I take your remarks in the spirit in which they were intended. I did not contact the Community Relations Officer at a (then) prominent nearby base. I phoned instead the Staish who I happened to know socially.

It was he who proferred a contingent from the cadets.

I do not know if it is so, but as I remarked, a divorced woman was being interred at the same time, and a huge contingent of military people seemed to be engaged in that operation, so perhaps he had none to spare.

My good friend was long since retired from service, but he had maintained contact with his unit; I attended more than one summer ball with him at the base and it was touching to see young flight lieutenants greet him with respect although they could not wipe their own noses when he was in active service.

The Staish, and a Wing Commander who I also knew socially, had their crests duly fallen when I spoke with them in the aftermath about this sorry episode.

Very sad, I think. And I never was part of the outfit. Just saw it all from close but outside.

I'll just add a PS, it was my initiative to have his cap, epaulettes and medals put on his coffin; I know nothing of the protocol of such things, and we did not have a Union Flag nor RAF standard to hand, but the aforementioned were in a box of his personal affairs which was easy to locate.

[teeteringhead]

Here's a few where PPrune and others - RAFA, ATC etc - helped to get it right:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/542456-help-honour-memory-fylde-coast-war-hero.html

(http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/542456-help-honour-memory-fylde-coast-war-hero.html)

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/540513-request-help.html

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/533978-funeral-help-wanted-death-raf-veteran-no-family-friends.html

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/529890-i-should-think-so-too.html

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/527415-request-help.html

And let's make sure we keep doing it! :ok: