RAF Officer sacked from post

[Bismark]

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/defence/article3177332.ece

It would appear that AVM Sean Bell has been sacked from Saudi after a short period in post. Wasn't he a love him or hate him figure in JFH?

[pasptoo]

did he have to leave the country because he "drove like a woman" ? :E

or part of the 3000 BAE redundancy list :sad:

[NutLoose]

Obviously ringing in the changes at BAe.... :E

[NigelOnDraft]

Could someone cut'n'paste, if they feel willing, for those who don't line the pockets of phone hackers :ooh:

NoD

Edit - thank you to those who have provided the article below... also came across the print copy on board today :ok:

[earswentpop]

A bloke down the pub told me it was no more than calling the King “Mate” and asking him how he was with the shiny lever.

Never mind Bellus - even the best of us sometimes crump one in.

[Al R]

Dim point maybe.

But why doesn't Saudi make any jets itself, under licence?

[Roadster280]

Have you ever been there? They don't do anything themselves.

[500N]

NigelonDraft
This is from the Saudi thread in jetblast

"The Ministry of Defence was seeking a new commander last night to take charge of weapons sales to Saudi Arabia after a personality clash left the post in Riyadh unexpectedly vacant. The premature departure of Air Vice-Marshal Sean Bell, a crucial figure in overseeing military contracts with the kingdom, emerged as BAE Systems confirmed it was cutting almost 3,000 jobs across Britain, mainly in its military aircraft division. The MoD declined to comment on “internal staff moves” but The Times understands that the decision to remove its two-star commander only seven months into his posting followed unofficial exchanges between Saudi Arabia and the ministry. A defence source said there was no specific incident, just a “major personality clash at several meetings”. As the head of a 100-strong team, Air Vice-Marshal Bell was one of the main military liaisons between Britain and Saudi Arabia, overseeing weapons contracts."

[jamesdevice]

“major personality clash at several meetings”


Is that newspeak for "he refused to pay a brbe?"

[Al R]

Roadster,

Sure.. but when the oil runs out in 60-70 years (?), you'd have thought they would want something already in place to prevent the place imploding.

[Roadster280]

Agreed, but with only 27m people and 5 cities, it's back to the goats at that point as far as I can see.

[NutLoose]

I can see the Mail headlines now now.....

"A Ding Dong Verily up high"

AVM Bell recalled


Dim point maybe.

But why doesn't Saudi make any jets itself, under licence?


Because you would have to ship all the contractors building them here, over there, then pay them more to be there.

[sisemen]

It is so very easy to forget that, for all their oil wealth, their pretensions of sophisiticated civilisation, their mimicry of western values (read Scotch and fast women), and their ostentacious lifestyles, when push comes to shove they are still desert nomads with a medieval mindset and no amount of cash is going to change that.

[Hammer Head Too]

Camel drivers with Cadillacs ;)

[Chinny Crewman]

The Times 28 Sep 11

"The Ministry of Defence was seeking a new commander last night to take charge of weapons sales to Saudi Arabia after a personality clash left the post in Riyadh unexpectedly vacant.
The premature departure of Air Vice-Marshal Sean Bell, a crucial figure in overseeing military contracts with the kingdom, emerged as BAE Systems confirmed that it was cutting almost 3,000 jobs across Britain, mainly in its military aircraft division.
The MoD declined to comment on “internal staff moves” but The Times understands that the decision to remove its two-star commander only seven months into his posting followed unofficial exchanges between Saudi Arabia and the ministry. A defence source said there was no specific incident, just a “major personality clash at several meetings”.
As the head of a 100-strong team, Air Vice-Marshal Bell was one of the main military liaisons between Britain and Saudi Arabia, overseeing weapons contracts as well as promoting future business.
In an interview on BAE System’s intranet earlier this year he said: “I am joining . . . MoD Saudi Arabian Project at a very exciting time — as the Typhoon aircraft becomes a major part of the Royal Saudi Air Force fleet of fixed wing aircraft. Through continued close co-operation and teamwork, we must do all we can to ensure that the RSAF maintains high levels of operational effectiveness.”
BAE Systems, Britain’s biggest defence company, meanwhile was coming under pressure from unions and politicians over its handling of the mass job cuts, which leaked to the media over the past three days.
Ian King, its chief executive, said: “Our customers are facing huge pressures on their defence budgets and affordability has become an increasing priority. Our business needs to rise to this challenge to maintain its competitiveness and ensure its long-term future.”
The biggest job losses will be at sites at Brough in East Yorkshire and in Warton and Samlesbury in Lancashire, although staff will also go at the company’s head office in Hampshire and elsewhere across the country. Workers spoke of being in shock, and many said that they were already looking for new jobs.
A slowdown in orders for the Eurofighter Typhoon and new generation F35 joint strike fighter was part of the reason behind the job cuts as BAE Systems tried to reduce costs and remain competitive.
The Government said that everything would be done to help those affected, but Ed Miliband, speaking at the Labour Party conference, said that the company had been “sold down the river” by the coalition, which has slashed defence spending.
Sounding a renewed warning about the impact of swingeing cuts across the Army, Royal Navy and RAF, a group of five retired commanders, including Air Chief Marshal Sir Michael Graydon and General Sir Michael Rose, urged David Cameron to increase the defence budget to 3 per cent of GDP from 2 per cent at present.
“Nearly 20 years of substantial cuts to Britain’s Armed Forces . . . have reduced all three Services to less than half strength,” they wrote in a report for the UK National Defence Association. Further, last October the coalition in a rushed, cost-driven Strategic Defence and Security Review and on the basis of a flawed National Security Strategy imposed further substantial cuts. This hugely damaging and dangerous process is continuing with yet further major cuts in the pipeline.”
A failure to fund defence sufficiently had already left Britain exposed on a number of fronts, including the Falklands, they said, noting that oil from the islands could be on line by 2020, increasing the potential for another Argentine land grab. “Our assessment is that current force levels are inadequate to hold off even a small-size invasion,” the report said.
Air Vice-Marshal Bell joined the RAF in 1980, becoming a Harrier fast jet pilot. He has served in Sarajevo, Germany, Afghanistan and the Middle East. In August 2008 he was appointed head of capability (theatre airspace) at the MoD with direct responsibility for Typhoon, Hawk and advanced air-to-air weapons. It is understood that he will take up another military posting."

[Trim Stab]

Is that newspeak for "he refused to pay a brbe?"

The bribes in Saudi (and elsewhere) for arms deals etc get paid by "the friends". The military attachés are never put in a position where there is even a suggestion of an obligation to pay a bribe. Well, that was how it used to be - I suppose things may have changed since my day.

[Rigga]

"But why doesn't Saudi make any jets itself, under licence? "

It was once rumoured that an aim of KSA was to be able to make their own aeroplanes and maintain them entirely within their own nation by 2015 - and they are said to be on-target for acheiving that.
It is currently 1431 in Hijri calendar.

[Teamchief]

Always found him to be ok both as a JP and as a flight commander on
1(F) Sqn.

[racedo]

It is so very easy to forget that, for all their oil wealth, their pretensions of sophisiticated civilisation, their mimicry of western values (read Scotch and fast women), and their ostentacious lifestyles, when push comes to shove they are still desert nomads with a medieval mindset and no amount of cash is going to change that.

As Yoda would say "Disagree I not"

[racedo]

It was once rumoured that an aim of KSA was to be able to make their own aeroplanes and maintain them entirely within their own nation by 2015 - and they are said to be on-target for acheiving that.
It is currently 1431 in Hijri calendar.
You bad....:p

[reds & greens]

"...AVM in charge of a 100 man team..." that's 24 more engineers than I have on the Sqn, and I have a SEngO !!!
Overmanned at the top???

[Pure Pursuit]

BAe are having to roll with the punches at the moment as the Saudis, and I know this may be hard to believe, are becoming much more financially astute. Profit margins are becoming tighter as the Saudis now realise just how much they have been milked by BAe over the years and are now calling the shots in the current contract negotiations. Difficult times for anyone caught in the middle and I suspect that the AVM will have had his hands full!

BAe's days of taking their place in KSA for granted are running out. They are going to have to be much more competitive, value for for money and transparent in business if they want to survive over there...

[Captain Sand Dune]

major personality clash at several meetings
As was told to me, the Saudis have the emotional maturity of a 2 year old. It would take something seemingly utterly insignificant to a Westerner to set 'em off. They rely very much on first impressions.
Of course, it could have also been a case of the all-knowing RAF fighter pilot going in there and jolly well telling them how its done too.
One doesn't take that approach with the Saudis if one seeks longevity in employment.

[jamesdevice]

Wheres's Mark Thatcher when you need him?

[Exascot]

Send in HRH The Duke of York

[SOSL]

What about Fergie?

[fergineer]

You called

[TheChitterneFlyer]

Nice one Fergie!

[Dan Winterland]

''It would take something seemingly utterly insignificant to a Westerner to set 'em off.''

Disparaging comments in a phone call back home to a fellow infidel will do it. They monitor all phone calls out of the country. A mate was sent home from a QFIing job, no reason given but they did make reference to a comment made to his wife in a private call!

[Whenurhappy]

According to a well-placed colleague (heresay, in other words) AVM Bell was determined to speed things up and 'make changes' within MODSAP. A 49 year old 2*, with his eye on one or two more, was clearly going to clash with the Inshallah culture of the Protector of the two Mosques and his close relatives.

[Llademos]

One of my flying instructors at Cranwell is now a two star.

Sigh ... I feel very old.

[Pontius Navigator]

He was a pilot I presume. What type was he on?:}

His predecessors have included Bastard Bill and Pete Ruddock so plenty of stars there.

[dagama]

.... not to mention Sandy Wilson of the curtains fame!

[Dan Winterland]

''One of my flying instructors at Cranwell is now a two star. Sigh ... I feel very old.''

He was my primary QFI as well - and he was younger than me too! I reserve the right to feel older.

[Llademos]

DW - what course (I was on 73)

[Dan Winterland]

61. I was Sean's first ever student. He was a creamie and I was two months older!

[Pontius Navigator]

ah, Sandy Curtains, he went deep and silent after all the blunder and bullsh*t, got a job with a major defence contractor did he not?

PS, I now recall that he too was recalled at the start of the Gulf War. Political I understand and that the RAF wanted their SO in place to be the British commander. At least the RAF won the appointment in round 2.

[Wander00]

Feel old - that hit me when one of my former IOT studes retired as a gp capt!

[Ron Cake]

TrimStab

I would be very surprised if 'The Friends', as you call them, got involved. It's not their line. Any backhanders are likely to have been paid by the defence equipment company through local consultants hired specifically for their contacts with key individuals in the host country's procurement system.

In days gone by, any UK goverment input to such activities was likely to be handled by International Military Sales (IMS), a quasi government department with offices in Soho Square.

...don't know what happens now.

[philrigger]

;)

It was once rumoured that an aim of KSA was to be able to make their own aeroplanes and maintain them entirely within their own nation by 2015 - and they are said to be on-target for acheiving that.
It is currently 1431 in Hijri calendar.


Not as long as they have holes in their arses.


aaron.

[Still Wee Jock]

"His predecessors have included Bastard Bill and Pete Ruddock so plenty of stars there."

Yikes. Pete Ruddock was/is a nice bloke, Bill.....well....ask Mrs Bill about the TV license. Oh, and I remember the bumper cars incident as well....too old? Hahahaha. Ha. Hahaha.

[Still Wee Jock]

And what exactly is AVM Bell doing now? Other than nothing?

[Wensleydale]

And what exactly is AVM Bell doing now? Other than nothing?


Not sure. Why not give him a ring?

[Jumping_Jack]

I believe he is undertaking 'a review' in the Capability area.....so not a made up job at all. :=

[LateArmLive]

Not sure. Why not give him a ring?

Best reply on PPrune ever! :D

[Pontius Navigator]

LAL,

I saw a friend had reached AVM at Shape. I rang the deskie at Innsworth who by coincidence had just left our station. He gave me his number. I then rang and was straight through.

Just shows AVMs, especially at Shape, didn't have much to do :)

[LateArmLive]

Errrrr....Bell. Ring. Ring the Bell?

[sled dog]

time for a glass of Bell`s.........

[Lightning Mate]

Camel drivers with Cadillacs

Mostly Toyota pickups when I was there.

[sisemen]

I believe he is undertaking 'a review' in the Capability area

So that will be another major role to go the way of the Harriers and the kipper fleet courtesy of another aircrew mate trying to pretend to be a switched on staff officer?

[ex-fast-jets]

sisemen

Harsh.

I suspect you do not know the target of your comment.

He deserves better.

[sisemen]

Purely a comment on the innate ability of RAFs penchant for putting excellent aircrew into staff appointments where they have little or no ability and who then proceed to produce "questionable" decisions which then get blamed on "blunties".

(I have a foot in both pilot and blunty camps so feel able to comment :E)

[Jackonicko]

I've run across Sean Bell a few times since we served together on London UAS. He always struck me as being a gifted pilot, an intelligent, decent, honourable and switched on officer, and as a most capable operator.

He was always an example of the kind of chap one would have hoped would reach senior rank, and who seemed to be an exception to the anecdotal rule that so many blokes who might have been a lion in the cockpit, a great Squadron CO or a great Staish then become administrative mice when they are promoted beyond that point.

I hope that this doesn't disadvantage Sean, as he's a bloke who ought to go further, and whose further rise would be a good thing for the service, and for the country.

[DAS Aviation]

In the middle east we call it "baksheesh".

Boils down to the same thing though.:)

[Roland Pulfrew]

another major role to go the way of the Harriers and the kipper fleet courtesy of another aircrew mate

Purely a comment on the innate ability of RAFs penchant for putting excellent aircrew into staff appointments where they have little or no ability and who then proceed to produce "questionable" decisions which then get blamed on "blunties".

And to be fair to the aircrew mate fraternity, the Nimrod decision can be firmly laid at the door of a number of "engineers" and one in particular.

[ICBM]

and pray which 'bluntie' can we pin JPA on sisemen?!

Your penchant to generalise aircrew says much about your deep-rooted resentments in that area.

[sisemen]

Probably Air Member for Personnel who happens to be .....er.....aircrew :E

And it's not a penchant - it's purely a reaction for every dumb-assed decision regarding capability, equipment and operational matters being pinned on "blunties" when the culprit is another branch. But by all means kick a blunty as hard as you can if they deserve it. It's the only way that some of them learn that their job is to support the front-end.

[Whenurhappy]

Note of fact: JPA was a joint decision wit the Army taking the lead under DCDS Pers who was an AVM. It was recommended on the back of the 'success' of the CS HRMS system.

Let's not confuse JPA (the system) with JSP 752 - the revised and harmonised pay and allowances - albeit introduced at the same time. JPA didn't introduce capped actual - the JSP did!

So, back to the thread: where is AVM Bell now - and who has moved to head MODSAP,

[Biggus]

There's always someone who has to spoil a good debate/argument by introducing some facts.... :*

[muttywhitedog]

I was told that 2* and above are "appointed", and if there is no job at the end of their "appointment", they are given a P45.

Was this the case for Shaun Bell, as there wouldnt have been a job for him to go to after the sudden end to his "appointment", unless of course, he was shuffled into a hastily-created post.

However, blunties can take months to staff an Establishment Variation Form - I know as a simple one to merely re-title several posts (with no +/- in numbers) took the best part of 6 months, so how come his post was created so quickly? ;)

[storl tern]

blunties can take months to staff an Establishment Variation Form

So, unit X requires a new post. Is it justified? Is the amount of working hours there and presented in the case? OK, it looks justified. Are there any establishment surpluses elsewhere? If there are what are the effects on the losing unit (should be nil but you have to check)? If there are no surpluses then what is the effect on the training schedule? Are there any graduates from training available within the time scale required? What is the knock-on effect on the recruiting process? Right, that's that lot sorted.

Now let's have a look at the receiving unit.

Does the additional post cause an increase in the supervisory positions? What effect on accommodation? Messing? MT requirements and the host of other things that support manpower on any unit. If there are then return to start point and work out the effects.

And then.....Bingo.... your 6 months are up.

Your cunning plan mutty for getting that particular problem sorted out in double quick time would be warmly welcomed by those whose job it is to solve all those problems.

Still, I don't suppose they'll be waiting expectantly.

[Biggus]

Surely "accommodation? Messing? MT requirements and the host of other things that support manpower on any unit." are the responsibility of the receiving unit, not the person authorising the change in establishment? Also,in the case mutty quotes there was no change in numbers, and therefore presumably no such complications......



Just asking out of curiosity, not interested in participating in, or continuing, any aircrew vs bluntie "debate"!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

And then.....Bingo.... your 6 months are up.


Sadly justification of this sort of thing is why we are so proper f@@ked :ugh::ugh::ugh: