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DX Wombat
19th Sep 2011, 18:37
As Checkboard pointed out elsewhere, the Police have to investigate to make sure that this is not a planned murder disguised as self defence. The flowers have been removed.
The time stamp fairy strikes again. :rolleyes:

radeng
19th Sep 2011, 18:43
For the third time in 4 months, a lowlife in Manchester gets killed while attempting a burglary or a robbery.

BBC News - Man bailed over Bramhall 'intruder' stab death (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14968236)

On each occasion PC Plod arrests the property owner who was only defending himself and his property. On the previous two occasions, no charges were ventually brought. How is it that they cannot figure that an interview would make more sense than an arrest? or does it just keep the arrest figures up? Each time, the property owner gets bail, so what's the point? It's not as if they couldn't decide later whether an arrest was justified.

And the relatives have the cheek to leave floral tributes outside the house....

mixture
19th Sep 2011, 18:49
radeng,

The topic of premature demise of household intruders was discussed on JB a mere few days ago (see here (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/456002-householders-vs-burgler-future-uk.html)).

Suffice to say it soon ended in the usual JB banter followed by a moderator lock on the thread.

Hence I wouldn't hold up much hope of your thread lasting too long, I don't think the mods are too fond of the topic. :)

sitigeltfel
19th Sep 2011, 19:07
From the Daily Wail..
and detectives will be investigating whether they were targeted by the raiders for their wealth....no shit, Sherlock! :ugh:

racedo
19th Sep 2011, 19:33
Darwinism strikes again.

tony draper
19th Sep 2011, 19:55
I suspect the powers that be will want this people actually sticking up for themselves stamped out sharpish, once is bad twice is worse three times ? time to act,the police and courts will have their orders.
Make a example.
:uhoh:

G-CPTN
19th Sep 2011, 19:56
Cooke then stabbed Raymond Jacob using Jacob's own knife.
From:- British Man Vincent Cooke Arrested For Allegedly Stabbing Burglar To Death (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/19/vincent-cooke-burglar_n_969776.html)

Spit161
19th Sep 2011, 19:57
...no shit, Sherlock!

Considering they had a :

A Range Rover and a gold Maserati

..parked on the drive, of course it's wealth!

cheers,
Jake.

racedo
19th Sep 2011, 20:00
As Checkboard pointed out elsewhere, the Police have to investigate to make sure that this is not a planned murder disguised as self defence.

Agree.....

11Fan
19th Sep 2011, 20:20
All this aside, you guys seem to be going through burglars at an alarming rate.

11Fan
19th Sep 2011, 20:35
Let us know if you run short and we'll send a few over. That said, we cull the herd here quite frequently so don't wait until you run out.

Time stamp weasel strikes again. This is supposed to follow the following post. :hmm:

hellsbrink
19th Sep 2011, 20:44
And that ain't a great loss, 11Fan.

Sir George Cayley
19th Sep 2011, 21:52
Mr Cooke doesn't own an aircraft, helicopter or microlight. Neither does he post on Pprune or the Girly Forum.

There, that should keep the Mods happy :ok:

Burglary. Breaking and entering. Did they B & E or knock on the door? Was it night time? A friend of mine woke up in the morning to find his home burgled. This included his Rolex Oyster Perpetual from the bedside table. Now that's burglary.

Two people entering a property in the early evening carrying a weapon isn't burglary, it's an attack imho.

Police helicopter overhead was an MD900 with a dark blue underside and yellow top. Jus keeping the Mods happy:)

At least the alleged intruder won't allegedly do it again.

SGC

Checkboard
19th Sep 2011, 22:03
If the alleged intruder was stabbed with his own knife, that means that he was disarmed at the time he was stabbed ...

Lon More
19th Sep 2011, 22:07
If the alleged intruder was stabbed with his own knife, that means that he was disarmed at the time he was stabbed ...
not neccessarilly. They could have been struggling for possesion of it.

G-CPTN
19th Sep 2011, 22:09
If the alleged intruder was stabbed with his own knife, that means that he was disarmed at the time he was stabbed ...
Perhaps they were taking it in turns?

It is alleged that the accomplice was also armed with a knife.

Checkboard
19th Sep 2011, 22:29
I don't know the facts (and neither does anyone here) however, in the spirit of the title:
Can someone please explain...

A policeman turns up on the scene:
"Hello Sir, I notice that this dead guy has what can only be described as a combat knife stuck in him. Is this the type of knife you usually keep in the kitchen?"
"Of course not! - it's his knife."
"So, you stabbed him with his knife ... what was he threatening YOU with?"
"Hey - he was bashing his way into my house - it's a home invasion!"
"Uh Huh ... Um ... I am going to have to arrest you on suspicion of murder until this is sorted out..."

Does that not make sense? Is that not responsible policing? :confused:

G-CPTN
19th Sep 2011, 22:50
One wonders whether the homeowner was trained in unarmed combat and how to disarm an assailant carrying a knife - or was the intruder just incompetent?

If you were 'a man of means' (who might be open to mugging) it would seem to make sense to prepare yourself so that you could stand a chance of avoiding being 'taken' . . .

Spit161
19th Sep 2011, 22:58
included his Rolex Oyster Perpetual from the bedside table

Ahh, a Rolex.
The burglar didn't realise the Patek next to it was worth 10x as much;)
Google "Patek" if you not sure what one is!:8

cheers,
Jake.

radeng
20th Sep 2011, 00:17
A pre planned murder? How likely that Joe Buggins will persuade Bill Smith to break into his house so he can be stabbed? More likely that the plod are thick as two short planks!

Was Bill stabbed in the back? Why can't they wait for the PM and interview results before deciding?

It makes a lot more sense to actually investigate BEFORE arresting. After all, after making an arrest, any statement should be under caution and with a solicitor present - so they may well get less, not more, information.

But it keeps the arrest rate up! Being an out and out woolly minded liberal, I like the Texas approach - a lump of metal proceeding at a high velocity towards the intruder. Regrettably, it's not allowed in the UK, as it infringes the burglars 'human rights'. Tough sh*t on the householder who gets beaten up, possibly killed, and robbed, while the perp gets maybe 6 years in practice with time off. Instead of a rope round the neck and a 6 foot drop

Back in the century before last, Jerome K. Jerome commented on this - 'If burglars wore uniforms, then the police would be duty bound to support them. One man in uniform always supports another man in uniform.'

Diary of a Pilgrimage.

sisemen
20th Sep 2011, 01:16
Ch Supt Rebekah Sutcliffe, who leads Greater Manchester Police's Stockport division, said: "This is clearly a distressing incident for all concerned - Raymond's family, the occupants of the house and the wider community in Bramhall.

Somebody ought to tell Chief Feckin Superintendent (got it in a cornflakes packet) Rebekah (My parents couldn't even spell my name right) that it is incredibly offensive to be calling a perp (Raymond Jacobs) by his first name even if he is the deceased. It instantly screams sympathy with the perp rather than the victim.

rh200
20th Sep 2011, 02:17
There is always much discussion on the results of defending oneself and the consequences.

The police do need to investigate to insure that it is not an actual murder, or just plain revenge. They do not have to arrest just for the sake of it, they can wait till they do a proper investigation, unless it is of course obvious.

That said one needs to keep in mind, the average Jo most likely isn't SAS trained, may have been sleeping, or have been on the piss and hasn't been in a punch up for eons. The average intruder will be wide awake, on adrenalin and may be used to getting into the odd fight.

Basic commons sense in this case will have the house holder at a distinct disadvantage, and the last thing you want it to evolve into is a fight of attrition where the householder gets worn down. You have no idea what the true intentions of the intruder/s is, common sense tells you that you need to end it as quickly as possible with what ever means is at your disposal.

If you get into a physical fight and manage to get the intruders knife (or what ever other item he has) off him you would be mad not to use it on him if you could do so.

By the way has anyone done a correlation analysis of airline flight paths to break in locations:E Just needed to put some airline stuff in.

11Fan
20th Sep 2011, 03:46
If the alleged intruder was stabbed with his own knife, that means that he was disarmed at the time he was stabbed ...

I was a Juror on a murder charge where the assailant was the original intended victim. Seems the original assailant (A) came over to the home of B. A then challenged B to come outside, A pulled a knife when B came out and attempted to stab B. B disarmed A and proceed to pound her silly.

Both teenage females, gang members, and over a boy. :hmm:

Nevertheless, while A was lying on the ground, B continued to punch and kick her, even after walking away and returning several times. She then returned and delivered the coup de grāce by embedding the knife into A's chest.

The Prosecutor was going for Murder 1. The Jury agreed unanamiously on a lesser charge; Manslaughter, First Degree. It was the returning after she was already down and the final coup de grāce and that did it. We couldn't agree that the Prosecution met the requirements for the Murder charges. We also were not the first Jury to hear it. We found out after the trial that the first was a mistrial.

The offenses in order of severity.
Murder First Degree; Premeditated
Murder Second Degree, Not Premeditated
Manslaughter First Degree
Manslaughter Second Degree (usually used for auto accidents)

They were both 17 years old. One got fifteen years. The other got death.

Curious Pax
20th Sep 2011, 09:27
I'm surprised that it wasn't murder 2 based on your description 11Fan, but you were in court and heard the evidence so are in the best position to know.

Going back to the original point of the thread - the legally trained among us will be in a position to say definitively, but I seem to recall that nowadays it is standard practice to arrest someone where there is a chance that foul play may have been involved in order to confer rights on them such as legal representation etc.

I'm glad the police investigate these things properly - it ensures that the 'burglar' defence doesn't become a tool for getting anyone off a murder charge.

Remember that in recent cases where there has been much spluttering into the pink gin about the householder being investigated in similar circumstances, all have been exonerated without charge.

radeng
20th Sep 2011, 10:25
Making an arrest rather than an interview under caution does make it a lot more expensive, and probably a lot more paperwork to fill in. Still, that means that the police aren't out on the streets.

If it is decided that there is no case to answer, is it a possible 'goer' to sue the police for false arrest?

Capot
20th Sep 2011, 11:02
Somebody ought to tell Chief Feckin Superintendent (got it in a cornflakes packet) Rebekah (My parents couldn't even spell my name right) that it is incredibly offensive

Well, if you appoint someone called Rebekah to a job like that you're going to get girlie, fluffy rubbish from her, like calling criminals by the first names and agonising about how their families feel, are you not?

In another context, if people called Deidre and Gretchen schmooze their way into top jobs you get lots of girlie stuff about "having conversations" instead of just getting on with it and telling people what you expect with clarity and purpose.

Keef
20th Sep 2011, 11:08
Oi! Rebekah is the original spelling. All this Rebecca stuff is modernisation.
I don't reckon the name tells you much about the person's abilities - I hope!

Just listened to that Eliza lady doing the Reith lecture. Scarily bright woman, she is!

DX Wombat
20th Sep 2011, 11:08
Well, if you appoint someone called Rebekah to a job like that you're going to get girlie, fluffy rubbish from her, like calling criminals by the first names and agonising about how their families feel, are you not?

That's really quite offensive Capot and an extremely narrow-minded, bigoted opinion. It's no wonder there are still problems with equal pay for equal work when that sort of attitude still exists.
Now to the sarcastic ones who do not realise that Rebekah is a legitimate, and probably much older, spelling of Rebecca, this is from a Baby Names site:

Rebeca, Rebecca, Rebecka, Rebeka, Rebekah, Rebekka ,
Girl, Hebrew, meaning: To tie
Keef :ok: You beat me to it. :)

radeng
20th Sep 2011, 12:18
I've often wondered if there's a connection between people's names and personalities. For example, I've met a number of Nigels: only two seem to have any vestige of common sense. Similarly, every Karen I've met has been a man hungry real goer. (Slasher is now looking for Karens!) Judging by the Rebekahs appearing in the news recently, one does wonder about strange attitudes to crime. All the Franks I've met are bright guys, as are the Lynnes, but not the Janets.

Seems very weird.

Keef
20th Sep 2011, 13:06
I've often wondered if there's a connection between people's names and personalities.

Yes, a very significant one. If you value your life, beware of the Keefs!

Remember, I have a licence to bury you....

rh200
20th Sep 2011, 13:16
It's no wonder there are still problems with equal pay for equal work when that sort of attitude still exists.

Don't know where you live, but most industry's I've been in they get the same for the same job.

Sorry couln't help myself:p

tony draper
20th Sep 2011, 13:16
Fluffiness is not confined to the distaf side of senior Police ranks, most of the men with all the gold braid are dribbling handiringers as well,more suited to running a social services dept,few have spent much time at the sharp end breaking miscreant skulls and feeling collars.
:)

Checkboard
20th Sep 2011, 13:27
It seems the burglar was stabbed six times in the arms & legs (defensive injuries?) until expiring from blood loss from one of the thigh injuries ...

radeng
20th Sep 2011, 15:10
In the last 4 months, the GMP don't have a very good record on arresting innocent people. What about Rebecca Leighton? Banged up for 6 weeks on remand, and then released because the evidence was totally inadequate - but GMP had been seen to be doing something.

I hope she manages a successful civil case for false arrest, stress, and everything else you can think of. Because if the GMP had done their job properly, they wouldn't have arrested her, and put her through the trauma she's been through. The same applies to the other people killed defending their property.

skydiver69
20th Sep 2011, 17:12
How do you know that GMP didn't do their job properly? Do you work for GMP, her legal team or the IPCC or are you basing your criticism on ill informed headline grabbing newspapers?

The police arrest people when there are reasonable grounds for suspicion, not guilt, not 100% proof of an act but suspicion, and given the apparent complexity of these murders it is not surprising that the wrong person may well have been arrested initially. As it was she was not arrested as soon as the investigation started but after a lot of work had been put into the case. If you really think that the police had arrested her just just to be seen to do something then someone would have been arrested immediately. If that was the case in general then the police would be arresting people after every single murder or offence which clearly doesn't happen!

Parapunter
20th Sep 2011, 17:22
In the last 4 months, the GMP don't have a very good record on arresting innocent people. What about Rebecca Leighton? Banged up for 6 weeks on remand, and then released because the evidence was totally inadequate - but GMP had been seen to be doing something.
How do you know she's innocent?:hmm:

radeng
20th Sep 2011, 17:35
skydiver

that was the charge made by her solicitor - and not effectively denied by GMP.

Now to arrest one person and then release them on bail and drop charges may be seen as normal policing. When it happens to 3 and possibly 4 people in 4 months, it's pushing coincidence too far. It is then getting close to being the norm. One has then to wonder if it's just a good way of building up the DNA database, where already police forces are seen to be defying governement instructions. And making the arrest tally look good.

Parapunter
20th Sep 2011, 17:43
What guff!

First of all, I doubt the police care for getting into a war of words with solicitors, to no real purpose, when they have better things to do.

Secondly, in a massive area with millions of people, four arrests and subsequent releases is hardly supporting the assertion that it's a deliberate policy to build up a dna database. No room in that jaundiced mind I suppose for considering the police are working hard, pursuing multiple lines of enquiry?

Probably not.

david1300
21st Sep 2011, 02:02
We've had our own (Aussie) intruder death overnight: Intruder dies after home invasion stabbing (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8304870/intruder-dies-after-home-invasion-stabbing)

An intruder who broke into a home in southern Sydney has died after being stabbed by the resident.
Police say the man broke into a house at Yagoona on Tuesday afternoon while the 54-year-old resident was in a shed out the back.
They say when the resident went back to the house he was threatened by the intruder, who was armed with "an electronic stun device".
After a struggle the resident allegedly stabbed the 30-year-old, who was from Canley Vale, in the chest and back.
The injured man fled in a car being driven by another man but got out a short time later.
He was taken to hospital in a critical condition and underwent surgery, but died on Tuesday night.
The 54-year-old Yagoona man is waiting to be questioned by police.
Two other men have been interviewed and released. A report is being prepared for the Coroner.
Strike Force ONeile, led by Bankstown Local Area Command with assistance from State Crime Commands Homicide Squad, has been established to investigate.

Hydromet
21st Sep 2011, 03:39
A little background to the above story is that in the last couple of weeks there has been a spate of robberies (not home invasions AFAIK) using stun-guns.

rh200
21st Sep 2011, 05:43
These days with the arrest first ask questions later policy's, coupled with the spate of home invasions over here I have been putting a bit of thought into the resistance issue.

Solution, a tin of Mortein and a lighter, whilst they might struggle with you if you have a knife or baseball bat, most animals are sh!t scared of fire.

G-CPTN
21st Sep 2011, 11:23
Apparently, the nurse has admitted the theft of opiate-based drugs from the hospital.

DX Wombat
21st Sep 2011, 12:07
That will cost her her registration.

MagnusP
21st Sep 2011, 12:10
That will cost her her registration.

Even if it's something daft like a packet of co-codamol?

DX Wombat
21st Sep 2011, 12:15
Highly likely I'm afraid. We were located so far away from Pharmacy that we used to have our own stock of paracetamol for staff emergencies. The Management deemed it more cost effective to allow this and have staff be able to stay at work rather than need to go home.
One of their few sensible ideas where staff were concerned.

david1300
22nd Sep 2011, 07:53
Update on the story referenced in post #39: Stun gun recovered after fatal stabbing (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8336021)

Police have recovered the stun gun used in an attempted Sydney home robbery in which the intruder was fatally stabbed.
The home owner, a 54-year-old man identified in reports as Donald Brooke, faces possible charges for stabbing the would-be robber.
Police have spoken to the driver of a vehicle that allegedly transported 30-year-old Azzam Naboulsi from the home of Mr Brooke at Yagoona, in Sydney's southwest, on Tuesday afternoon.
Mr Naboulsi was armed with a stun gun when he entered Mr Brooke's home while he was in a shed at the rear of the property.
Mr Brooke returned to the house and in the ensuing confrontation stabbed Naboulsi in the chest and back before the younger man fled the scene in a Mitsubishi Lancer driven by another man.
Mr Naboulsi was seen a short time later leaving the vehicle at Fairfield East before being taken to hospital, where he later died.
Police were expected to formally interview Mr Brooke on Thursday and continue other lines of inquiry before deciding whether to charge him.
Detectives have spoken to the driver of the vehicle and on Thursday found a stun gun in the front yard of a premises at nearby Auburn.
Other property was also found in a vehicle at the premises.
Police have spoken to the driver, who has since been released pending further investigation.
NSW Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione said he understood public sympathy for the homeowner but the investigation would take time.
"What it is we are dealing with here is close to the heart of every member of the community because of the terrible thing that has happened," Mr Scipione told reporters in Sydney on Thursday.
"But understanding that, the police have a job to do and they'll do it professionally.
"There is much to be done - we still have to undergo a post-mortem, there's still a lot of forensic work to be done there, and police will exercise a lot of good judgment in this, you can be sure.
"We're going to just let the police get on with their job."
NSW Police Minister Mike Gallacher said police may seek advice from NSW Attorney-General Greg Smith about self-defence.
"Individuals ... question their own security, but they also wonder about their own rights and responsibilities," Mr Gallacher said.
"If there is any uncertainty, I am sure that the attorney-general in his role would be more than happy to look at it."
A post-mortem examination will be conducted on Mr Naboulsi's body on Thursday.

rh200
22nd Sep 2011, 09:32
david

Can't remember what news sight it was, but what isn't said there was apparently the home owner pleaded for him to come back for help as he was injured (as told by a neighbor ) and was quite distressed about it all.

G-CPTN
22nd Sep 2011, 09:48
When they searched her home, they found 30 Tramadol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramadol)capsules that she's alleged to have stolen.http://www.qtl.co.il/img/copy.pnghttp://www.google.com/favicon.ico (http://www.google.com/search?q=Tramadol%20)http://www.qtl.co.il/img/trans.png

DX Wombat
22nd Sep 2011, 11:02
Thanks G-CPTN, I didn't know that. She will probably not lose her registration for that but quite likely her job as theft is a reason for instant dismissal (if indeed she stole them). I was wondering why the LHA had not lifted her suspension.