Logging instrument and night at the same time?

[aqswde12345]

Hi,

I am doing my recency and my only requirements remaining are 3 hrs night PIC and 2.5 hrs of instrument. Am I allowed to fly this night time under the hood (With instructor of course ;)) and get both my requirements?

Thanks

[jester_icarus]

it all depends. Under the hood would be simulated instrument. if you are flying at night and under instrument fight plan..then it would be instrument flying logged as well as night flight. logging actual IMC would be different. Remember you can fly at night under IFR but in VMC.

you can be flying IFR but under VMC conditions. you log instrument but none actual. however if you fly into the clouds then you are in actual IMC which you then can log as Actual IMC.

3.0 hrs Night Flight Logged
- If you flew this flight IFR then you would log Instrument. (you are flying your route using your instrument as main reference)
- If during this IFR flight you were under IMC conditions then you can log Actual Instrument Time....during the time you were in actual IMC.
- if during this time you are under the hood (with instructor as a safety pilot of course) and you are in IFR then you can log Night, Instrument, Simulated IMC.


hope your Q was A.

[Fratemate]

Jester,

I don't believe IFR counts as instrument flying. As you well know, IFR does not = IMC (simulated IMC) and I think you can only log instrument flying in IMC (sim IMC). So, I agree with your answer that under the hood the OP can log night and simulated instrument flying and in cloud he can log night and actual instrument flying but do not agree with the IFR = instrument flying in the log book.

Taken to its extremes, you are suggesting that a typical airline flight (IFR) should al be instrument time. So my taxying time, takeoff (on a fine day), landing (on a fine day) etc are all counted as instrument? What about in the cruise on top of cloud while I'm reading my newspaper and eating those lovely flight crew meals :confused: I do not believe this is correct.

In my mind, if it's night time you log night. If you fly in cloud/simulated cloud, you log actual/simulated instrument. IFR, I think, has nothing to do with it.

[pilotbaba]

@aqswde12345

I know you are asking for DGCA purposes, but have to do this flight either in USA or canada or somehwhere outside India otherwise you indian intructor would know the answer.

So as far as I can remember, you can do both in the same flight & a lot more actually....... Here's how...

File a 3 hrs X/C, File IFR, at night to an airport more than 100 NM away, (Remember DGCA needs 100 NM x/c); go under hood after take off. log 2.5 or 2.6 of simulated Instrument & 3 hrs in X/C section. You can do the intercepting radials & tracking VOR, do a hold on a radial, shoot approach with a full stop taxi back or STOP & GO at your destination.

On the return leg, land at an intermediate point, shoot approach, full stop landing & then come back to point of departure or where you want to be.

That way this flight will count towards your "6 6 HIT" & night currency 3 landings PIC.

If you get lucky, drive through some clouds & log actual...

DGCA doesn't care, simulated or actual, they just want instrument time for recency.

[jester_icarus]

fratemate:

taxiing.of course not. dont be silly

example:
taxiing .2 (extreme)
of ground 1.5
taxiing .1

Total PIC 1.8
instrument 1.5 ( if flight IFR)
Instrument Actual, if any for example .5

make sense.?

[jester_icarus]

fratemate:

night flying can be tricky as far as logging actual. when logging actual is when you are flying as in reference to your instrument. there are some instances at night when there are no ground reference ie over the ocean.

anyway i had this conversation before... just look up the REGS and i can tell you its there.

and yes you can log instrument time in an airline above the clouds eating your crew lunch..visibility unlimited so long that part of the flight is under instrument flight rules... but i never said you can log actual.. 2 different entries my friend..2 different entries..

taxiing..of course not!!!!

[Fratemate]

Jester,

So, according to your interpretation of the rules, all time spent whilst flying IFR counts as instrument time and this is in the DGCA regulations? Small wonder people get the wrong impression of licencing and qualification in India.

yes you can log instrument time in an airline above the clouds eating your crew lunch..visibility unlimited so long that part of the flight is under instrument flight rules... but i never said you can log actual..

How would you log this then? It either goes in the logbook under the 'actual' column or the 'simulated' column. Flying above cloud on a gin-clear day is neither actual nor simulated (assuming you're not under the hood). Your argument is nonsensical; sitting there with the autopilot engaged, sipping a cup of tea and watching the World go by beneath you is not flying by 'sole reference to instruments'. As I know you're aware, you can (and in many cases, must) fly IFR on a beautiful, clear day. You can, on this day, be hand flying, quite merrily looking out of the window and enjoying the view and, in your mind, you can claim this as instrument time :confused:

Now, I admittedly do not hold a DGCA licence so do not have access to their rules and regulations. I do however, hold UK CAA, CASA, FAA & JCAB ATPLs and have had a look through two of these (CAA & CASA). The CAA says:

"The column headed 'Instrument Flying' is provided in order that flight time during which the holder manipulated controls solely by reference to instruments, either under actual or properly simulated instrument flight conditions may be recorded'. Note 'instrument flight CONDITIONS' NOT instrument flight RULES.

CASA (Oz) are much more specific:

"A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flying unless flying in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC)"

How much clearer could that be?

As I said, I do not hold an Indian licence but I would be willing to bet a few Rupees that the DGCA do not vary from the CAA, CASA, FAA & JCAB in their interpretation of this 'rule'.

So, back to the original question:

I am doing my recency and my only requirements remaining are 3 hrs night PIC and 2.5 hrs of instrument. Am I allowed to fly this night time under the hood (With instructor of course ) and get both my requirements?

I do not accept your advice regarding IFR but I believe we are agreed that he is allowed to fulfill this requirement and that the total flight time should be entered as 'night' and the instrument flying time (under the hood) should be entered under the 'simulated' column.


Edited to add:

anyway i had this conversation before... just look up the REGS and i can tell you its there.

Unconvinced by your theory I actually looked up the DGCA regulations and, surprise, surprise, they conform with the other regulatory authorities:

DGCA Regs, Part IX - Log Books:

67A: (11) Instrument flight time may be logged by the pilot manipulating the controls of an aircraft in flight only when the aircraft is flown solely by reference to instruments, either under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions. Over-the-top flying shall not be logged as instrument flying
time. ...again, CONDITIONS not RULES.

(12) Instrument ground time may be logged in full by the pilot while flying solely by reference to instruments, in any recognized synthetic device which simulates instrument flight conditions.

[jester_icarus]

.".....As I know you're aware, you can (and in many cases, must) fly IFR on a beautiful, clear day. You can, on this day, be hand flying, quite merrily looking out of the window and enjoying the view and, in your mind, you can claim this as instrument time http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif"

one question. under the condition you mentioned above..under IFR plan and flying an airway and flying to a waypoint and reporting at a mandatory waypoint...on a clear day...are you not flying under the reference of your instrument to fly to those way points?

Of course anytime you fly into IMC then its "actual"

again 2 different entries..
-instrument
-actual

hmmm..

i will go get out my FAA FARS and i will give you a reference page number.

[Fratemate]

one question. under the condition you mentioned above..under IFR plan and flying an airway and flying to a waypoint and reporting at a mandatory waypoint...on a clear day...are you not flying under the reference of your instrument to fly to those way points?

No, I would suggest you are not. If the EADI failed could I keep the aircraft straight and level by looking out the window? Yes, I could; which means I didn't need to fly SOLELY by reference to instruments in the first place, therefore not instrument flying. IFR does NOT = IMC.

again 2 different entries..
-instrument
-actual

This is the second time you have said this but it still makes no sense. In all of my logbooks there are columns for P1/Copilot etc day and night. Likewise, there are columns labelled Sim Inst and Act Inst. Having entered the relevant number of hours in the day/night columns I then enter 30 mins or whatever into the Act Inst column (or Sim Inst column) and that is the end of the story. The 30 mins is the time that I spent in IMC and, therefore, flew by sole reference to instruments. You keep saying there is a difference between instrument flying and actual/simulated instrument flying but I don't have a clue what you are talking about. IFR does not necessarily = instrument flying.


Edited to add:

FAR Part 61.51 has this to say:

(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions