Decline in Pilot Salaries Survey

[Mr Proach]

Given that arguably the Aviation industry is experiencing the most significant pilot shortage in the last 30+ years, without factoring in the normal market laws of supply and demand why is it that Pilot salaries are in the vicinity of 40% less in real terms compared to those of 20years ago?

[NotHomeMuch]

Operators are expected to provide better services at lower costs. Said operator still has to maintain his flash life style so the first place to obtain funding support grand living is take it off the flight crew. We all know that we are overpaid so can afford a lower salary.

A survey recently done in the US shows that airline pilots are being paid less than window cleaners! Now imagine what general charter and helicopter pilots are earning.

[abovethecloud]

And they are trying to figure out why the industry is struggling to attract the right type of people. Go figure.

[break_break]

All for the love of flying.

From the airline management team of crooks from HR, it's plain and simple.

BUDGET.

Now just do a simple search to see how many doctors, lawyers, accountants and etc are contemplating self funding to start their flying careers. Let alone thousands of unemployed in both western hemisphere and india who will almost work for free just to be given a chance for a seat in the cockpit.

There's really one direction of our pilots' salaries would go, DOWN.

I'll be overjoyed if my airline just keep adjusting upwards for real inflation.

[bigbrother]

As with the banking and finance industries, we have all been conned. Industry has allowed itself to be hijacked in thinking by the bean counters to suggest there can be a continued reduction in the price per seat per mile, to attract more people onto planes, and hence make more money. Industry doesn't have to sell ridiculously cheap fares at a continuous rate, but chooses to do so. It then looks to compensate itself in the process through wages and conditions. That's not to say that in all circumstances there were not areas that wages or conditions could or should not have been looked at, but only if senior managment had the same microscope applied.

Funny how it's a one way looking glass.

The day is coming my friends but let us not get too carried away with wages growth here in Oz. There is a disparity (IMHO) between a S.O getting $180K on an A380 and an FO on a REgional getting $45K, and working his arse off in VERY demanding conditions. When it all does turn around we as professional aircrew should look at this with a big picture in mind. We will all be happier in the end, and our industry happier and healthier place to work, if we all get a reasonable remuneration for our skills base. We must make some gains for the lowest paid, but keep in mind that some are already pretty well off.

Just my 2 cents worth

[layingback]

Is there really a pilot shortage Mr Proach?
There seems to be too many kicking around so they can pay them crap money.
Just my take on it anyway.:confused:

[mcgrath50]

The first time I heard about the impending pilot shortage was in 2003 (I assume it was talked about long before this) it was going to happen in just a few years. And every year after that, the pilot shortage was coming (and still is) in just a few years :rolleyes:

[neville_nobody]

All that happened in the last pilot shortage around 07-08 was that airlines just lowered all their minimums ably assisted by CASA.:ugh:

The only people who struggled were the ones who had insurance company imposed requirements.

No a good look when a insurance company is more stringent than the regulator.

Remember too that aviation CEO's are generally selective capitalists. They only like it when it works in their favour. When there are 1000's of pilots they love to remind you that there are plenty of people around who want your job and that's why you'll be taking a 2% pay cut in real terms this EBA. When the labour market turns against them they all come out in the press blaming everyone one else about how they have a crewing problem and start pointing the figure at the government for not training enough people. So the government responds by lowering the requirements.

[Anthill]

I made the same $$s last financial year as I did in 1996-'97 :eek:

There are probably many reasons for the decline in salaries however I came to realise some time ago that Datal Seniority serves to regulate labour supply in favour of the employer. I know that this is not a popular perspective to hold, however, I must speak what I see as the truth.

If there was such a shortage of pilots in recent years, or salaries should have gone up. In fact, during this period, I left a Datal Seniority company for a direct entry command and scored a $50,000 per year pay rise to boot and they supplied type rating.

Merit based employment and promotional practices allow people to move between employers and chace superior T&Cs. The employer benefits from being able to source the required talent from either within or outside their organisation.

Datal Seniority means that you cannot vote with your feet. The employer knows that they can jerk you around because you wont leave because either you are close to a command, get all your rosters that you want or will go onto the 'WonderJet Mk. IV(-ER :8)'very soon. Your employer knows this and this facet has become part of the IR landscape with respect to their negotiation strategy for quite some time.

[havick]

Anthill. That is a great post. Some of the pilot body in our last EBA negotiations (medium - large EMS helicopter rescue company) wanted to introduce a seniority system similar to our competitors.

I for one am thankful that this was knocked back by the company for the reasons that you have put forward.

The end result in the EBA negotiations was a 25.5% or 27.5% (I can't remember) increase over three years and backpayed for one year (the EBA had expired for approx 12 months at this time.

[Howard Hughes]

As I said in another thread my salary has increased 96.5% since October 2006, so from my perspective I am not seeing a decline in salaries.

While I don't think there will ever be a general shortage of pilots, there certainly will be occasional shortages of experienced pilots. This has occured twice in the last decade or so that I have witnessed, 2000/2001 & 2007/2008. I suspect we are about 18-24 months away from a similar situation again, once QF/Jetstar get their intra company movements/wranglings sorted out.:ok:

[havick]

If you abolished that then salaries in Australia would tank as you would be invaded by Britts, Kiwis, South Afrikans, and expat aussies

How do you get past the immigration issues? Or do you propose they would be flying from an international base?

[neville_nobody]

Datal Seniority serves to regulate labour supply in favour of the employer. I know that this is not a popular perspective to hold, however, I must speak what I see as the truth.

If you abolished that then salaries in Australia would tank as you would be invaded by Britts, Kiwis, South Afrikans, and expat aussies who are working for foreign airlines. It would be an employer's dream! Just take a look at Jetstar and VOz.

At least seniority gives some value to living in Australia and protects the locals from cashed up expats who will undercut the local market just to get back to Oz.

[mcgrath50]

Come back by all means, but don't undercut us all back here because you are desperate.

[40Deg STH]

I left Australia after the late 80's debacle and lowering of conditions. I would never come back there and accept the conditions J star offer and have serious doubts as to whether I will even retire there now.
Its a shame as it is a great place, but find it now hard to come to terms how you let it lower to the the level it has!!!! I'm sorry to say, but you have some amount of responsibility for what has happened over the past 20+ years.
Don't blame returning expats, although I do agree with seniority, but harden up and fight for the conditions you should be getting. Don't go buying ratings and flying for peanuts. I love this saying....."Harden up princess":D
DO NOT blame us "expats" for your conditions, you guys did it!!
Now time to stand behind our QF (longhaul) friends, they are doing a great job:ok:

[Popgun]

Datal Seniority means that you cannot vote with your feet. The employer knows that they can jerk you around because you wont leave because either you are close to a command, get all your rosters that you want or will go onto the 'WonderJet Mk. IV(-ER )'very soon. Your employer knows this and this facet has become part of the IR landscape with respect to their negotiation strategy for quite some time

A very wise observation Anthill. If only our unions would see this too...

PG

[Mr Leslie Chow]

I think Aus did see a pilot shortage starting a few months before the GFC hit, then well...

In a few years I think there will be a shortage, given that the mining industry takes a lot of people on good money.

Been to your local training field lately? With the odd exception, I'd say they are pretty empty.

[SMOC]

If you abolished that then salaries in Australia would tank as you would be invaded by Britts, Kiwis, South Afrikans, and expat aussies who are working for foreign airlines. It would be an employer's dream! Just take a look at Jetstar and VOz.

At least seniority gives some value to living in Australia and protects the locals from cashed up expats who will undercut the local market just to get back to Oz.

Neville, you're talking about the short term which I agree would be a blood bath but when it all settled down we would all be guns for hire and go where the $$$ was, companies would have to pay to get skills and pay to keep them from leaving.

We can't have a half and half system it's got to be all or nothing as you said Jetstar and VOz caused a bunch to leave, but they had to be replaced and cost EK and whoever else $$$. Imagine they didn't like VOz and could go straight back to their old job it's that sort of choice that would cost companies a fortune.

I had an F/O say he'd never get a command :ugh: as if no seniority suddenly meant current commanders would live forever :confused:

As an example CX's recent pay rises gave S/Os a 30% pay rise (they're at rock bottom now - no expat terms) Junior (1st yr) Capt 5%, Senior Capt (>5yrs) 0%. Inflation in HK was quoted as being 16%

And the kicker rumor, S/Os may be getting another 25% pay rise!

Get em in the door and then seniority will mean they will never leave.

[unionist1974]

The problems all started when derugulaion came in, 30 years ago and it has been a steady decline since then . The last 10 years have seen major declines in salaries and I think the next 10 years will be even worse. No way can the clock be turned back , the glamour of flying is now a myth just another form of transport. There will still be good salaries but not on the scale they have been , get used to it , guysN Gals

[Oakape]

fellas, the pilot shortage HAS arrived. I know it from current personal experience with 6 interview sheduled or completed in the last 2 months. If wages and conditions aren't what your after, let them know and take another bus. I'm amazed how quickly it has turned around but turned around it has. All that needs to happen now is for the pinch to reach the rarified air of managment, and aircraft start getting parked up against a fence, and watch the salaries improve. It is happening already and I am witness to it.

A post from 'big brother' in the 'JetStar NZ pilots vote for industrial action' thread, which gives a different point of view regarding 'the pilot shortage'

[Anthill]

Interesting SMOC. The current EBA at Voz has gone from merit based promotion to a common datal system with Virgin Blue. This means that the Senior FOs will probably not see a B777 command. Instead, they are all now datally aligned within a common group.

However, the company knows that many SFOs have the experience and ability to easily get a job elsewhere. Most have had previous jet commands and could be tempted by a direct entry position in another company (ie the LLC that SQ plan to start with B777s). The result has been that current SFOs will get command by-pass pay after 5 years under the new EBA. Their salary also went up by about $22k.

Here is an example of a salary incentive brought on by management (it wasn't AFAP or VIPA behind this) in an attempt to retain staff. The lure of command pay, if not a command, will probably not ensure that all SFOs stay, but goes a long way to retain existing staff. This could only happen in an industrial environment where people have the scope to move on into other positions and not have to start at the bottom each time.

[SMOC]

Anthill, who introduced the idea of the seniority system to VOz? actually that doesn't really matter but if it was the airline that proposed it perhaps they saw the writing on the wall for an airline without one!

It's interesting that the creation of the seniority system included improvements in pay, I think long term it will result in a reduction in senior pay, so it's possible that removal of seniority would cause losses in pay (the initial bloodbath) but long term perhaps pay rises??? I've always wondered if a union approached an airline to get rid of seniority would the airline accept the proposal.

The advantage for current crew would be you could leave and try greener pastures, if they were no good you could 'try' and come back, the point being there's a chance to come back in the same position as opposed to going right to the bottom or no chance/point to come back. Also some airlines want a known quantity in the left seat they can't afford to lose them after investing so much money.

The answer to if seniority is the problem probably lies in what the airline would say to the proposal to remove seniority, if they said NO then clearly seniority benefits the airline and more than the crews.

I'm not against seniority, I just think airlines use the system against us. We use it for one thing the company uses it for another. :=

A BA skipper told me law firms once used a seniority system which had the same effect of guys accepting low pay as they moved towards the top, unable to leave as they would start at the bottom of a new law firm at even lower pay. I suspect we need to worry less about our position in the airlines ie S/O, F/O or Capt. and worry more about pay. Who wouldn't take a demotion if you got a pay rise! While what happens now is we are willing to take a pay cut for a promotion.

[hongkongfooey]

I suspect HHs 96% pay rise since 2006 is the result of promotion/promotions so not really relevant. Anthill, DECs are great for those who have the experience and/or the correct coloured shirt from a previous life hanging in the closet, but realistically DECs on Jets in Oz are like rocking horse poo.
I don't think there will ever be a pilot shortage in Oz because most realise there is a good reason why they pay so well overseas, and it's not because of the clean air or wide open spaces.

[usualguy]

if it was so fun to clean windows, I would do it for free, same thing with tennis, soccer, hang out with girls, cinema...and flying.

this is why they can reduce your salary to the lowest they can, because you fly for fun!

oh, and don't tell me it s not true, because if it was, airline will pay a fortune to get pilots, or people will run away.

I bet you will go work for free if tomorrow your boss tell you no money for you.

at the end, YOU are the one who chose this job, you are the one who sign contract or work for free. Don't blame now the industry to lower your salary and other non sens stories that you don't have the choice, don't play the little hypocrit with me

I have been in the industry, and another type of industry where I asked money for my work or they don't see my face.My salary request is even printed on my CV and I got paid like the millions of people who WORK everydday all around this planet, no playing at the airline pilot..

Do you think a window cleaner will pay to work? ask him and see.
I asked my neighbour if he work for free, he laughed at me!he told me pilots are a bunch of idiots with kid's dreams.

he is right!pilot shortage? never!as long pilot stay dumb, your salary will go lower and lower. I Quit.take my job, I keep my money for my food.

[skol]

Pilots will work for free. I've seen an example where a couple of dudes went to the company and offered to fly a bigger type for the same money they're on to defeat the seniority system.

I've also seen a collection of guys stab a whole heap of others in the back, given up lots of conditions for a modest pay rise and promotion to another type ahead of their ex-mates.

One guy contacted the airline I work for and said his son would work for allowances only, no pay.

Airlines know pilots are suckers in general and not hard-nosed wharfies and will use divide-and-rule tactics to get what they want.

[virginexcess]

Your assessment of the impact of datal seniority is absolutely correct, however i'm not sure i agree with your view of removing it.

If QF were to move away from datal seniority it would be pilots from other airlines that would benefit, not the QF pilots. Same goes for VA. Imagine what would be happening at VA right now (given the current turmoil at QF) if VA did not have a form of seniority. The VA pilots would be at risk of being swamped by more experienced QF pilots. Why would VA pilots risk that. You might say "but if QF did not have datal seniority, then it would work out", but then QF and VA would be vulnerable to expats taking senior positions.

In the end, if every airline did it, sure it would probably balance out, but i can't see any way of unwinding it now that it is in place. Additionally, merit based systems always seem attractive to those further down the list invariably have an over inflated opinion of their own ability and tend to have a dim view of those further up the list. That's all well and good, but how do you
diiferentiate two pilots who go to work, do their job and follow SOP's? Are they any better or worse than the guy who dealt with the turbine failure and stuck
the 380 into SIN with 100m of rwy remaining? We don't know because they
may not have had the opportunity to demonstrate their ability. Your best pilots are usually the ones management never hear about. They just do their job quietly and professionally then go home. Merit based systems create the
environment for bad behaviour from both management and pilots.

To borrow from Winston Churchill, seniority is the worst possible form of pilot management, except for all the others.

On another note, VIPA and AIPA were absolutely responsible for the 5 year command pay guarantee for VA F/O's. It came as a response to both unions demands to ensure VA F/O's did not get completely screwed as a result of the proposed integration of the Virgin pilot groups.

[notaplanegeek]

There has never been a pilot shortage and given the amount of pilots training there never will. When Qantas starts taking people with a bare cpl and an instrument rating and cannot fulfill slots then I will believe it.

[ad-astra]

Ok I am not trying to argue that our Industry and Profession is not under attack from several quarters but having checked the T&C that VB pilots have experienced over the last few years it is not all doom and gloom and backwards movement.

Again not trying to start a pissing competition but 737 Command Salary 2002 was $113,300 plus retention of $15000 plus a 2% Bonus = $130,566

Current EBA which is about to expire has a minimum 737 Command salary of $190,889.
From personal experience I know that $250,000 is achievable with overtime/day off payments.

Additional 9% Super, overnight allowances, and Loss of Licence $2300, Training/Checking 10%/15% add to that package.

Some will argue that we are working a lot harder - and yes we do - but also acknowledge that a minimum of 11/12 off in 28 with an average 13/14 off and sometimes 18 off in 28 is not a bad balance with our work commitments.

Do we have challenges YES, are all pilots satisfied NO, will there be improvements YES

My point is that a reasonable remuneration package IS achievable with the support of a good negotiating team and a proactive pilot group.

Listening to some here on PPrune and it's a very different mindset.

I guess I am a glass half full person.

[skol]

The one thing going for pilots is that the job is regulated by the government. Look no further than the Tiger debacle.

Other jobs in engineering (most anyway), load control, fuelling, reservations, etc are regulated by company rules and therefore the lowest common denominator applies.

Airlines would love to be able to issue their own pilot's licences, but it ain't gonna happen.

WTF would it be like if they did?

[hadagutful]

This may be off the track in terms of pilot remuneration but with the current Q ground crew and baggage handlers strike and pay claim, does anyone know what these folk are paid?

I can't really comment whether their strike is justified, I think any strike action should be last resort but it seems to me that in the current environment, 15% over 3 years seems a big ask.

I seem to recall that with shift allowances etc., these people were getting paid pretty good money in the region of $60,000 - $80,000?

It's not easy work in the baggage handling dept., but I would be interested to see how they compare for example with an intensive care nurse doing shift work.

[Worrals in the wilds]

From informal discussions over the years with both nurses and ramp workers, I believe it's about the same as far as Qantas goes. The independent GHS companies generally pay less and/or have poorer conditions. Nurses have had a few pay increases in recent years due to shortages so that may have changed and they may now be ahead.

Nursing has other advantages, in that it's more flexible than aviation work irt choice of employers, type of work available and hours. Many are also government employees (particularly in emergency and intensive care) with the ensuing job security and superannuation benefits. There are also better options available for promotion and career advancement, which should be expected as it's a profession. Top of the line hospital nurse managers are on well over 100K a year (maybe more these days) but it's competitive at that level, you're chained to a desk and have to deal with government ministers. :ooh:

Nursing is appallingly underpaid because a lot of people are nurses for the love of it and wouldn't do anything else. Therefore, they get screwed. Same with ambos, firies and coppers.
Sound familiar, Captains?

My dear sister is a nurse and a bloody good one. Back in the good ol' days when Qantas was a desirable employer :sad: she and her colleagues were getting mightily screwed by a major hospital. "Go be a hostie", was my advice. "It's the same money, less responsibility and you get to go to all sorts of places". She wouldn't do it. "I'm a nurse" was the explanation. Admirable? Absolutely. :D Rampantly exploited by unscrupulous employers, including the state governments? Every time. :yuk:

When it comes to pay and conditions, health workers are a bad example to use because they're just too damned honourable. If they were paid their true worth, the states would be broke within a week.

[Icarus2001]

There has never been a pilot shortage and given the amount of pilots training there never will.

This information is available in the CASA annual reports.

Licences issued each year as below:


YEAR 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

ATPL 373 ... 332 .... 378 ... 488 ... 521 .. 425 486

CPL 804 ...... 670 987 .... 1162 1352 ... 1453 1344

Draw from that whatever conclusion you like but it seems to me that after the drop in training in the early noughties, there has been a rebound.

It is interesting to note the total number existing each year.

Total "current" licences.

.............. 2004 ......... 2010

ATPL .... 6028 ........ 6825

CPL ...... 4019 ........ 4189

Whatever these figures mean there is no question that experience levels for entry level turboprop and jet jobs are getting lower each year. We see it with recruitment. The progression from piston to turboprop to jet was always pretty well followed. Now we see people skip the turboprop step.

I make no comment on whether that is good or bad. I do feel the figures together with anecdotal evidence suggest a tightening supply of pilots.

Did VA negotiate a "good" agreement with their crew to hold on to them?

Many on these board like to compare us to doctors and lawyers. Look how they control their income. You cannot become a GP unless you can get a medicare provider number, these are strictly limited. You also need to be admitted to "the college". Legal numbers are similarly controlled by entry to "the bar". In aviation, anyone with a reasonable brain and enough funds can get a licence and for the most part a paying job.

Someone once told me that your salary is simply a reflection of how hard it is to replace you. Apply that logic to many fields and it seems about right.

[DirectAnywhere]

I'd be interested to know what proportion of the CPLs are permanent Australian residents. I reckon a large number of those would be international students.

ATPLs are more likely to be Australians and the increase is an interesting trend. Thanks Icarus.

[Icarus2001]

Yes I think that would be useful. I do know from a friend at a large college training overseas sponsored cadets, that their cadets only get an Australian Student Pilots Licence. Their CPL is issued by their home country following a flight test conducted in Australia by an ATO from "home".

[Worrals in the wilds]

Many on these board like to compare us to doctors and lawyers.Actually in Qld at least, lawyers have been facing serious oversupply issues for years. This has gotten worse with the recent Moynihan reforms that do away with committals (boring legal issue that basically means less work for the existing barrister pool) and means that a hell of a lot of lawyers are underworked.

Because barristers are essentially self employed this is not reflected in the unemployement statistics, because like self employed tradies they're not actually out of work, just not doing anything at the moment or for the forseeable future :sad:. As I understand it, if you have an LLB, a barrister to sponsor you and no objections, you can effectively be admitted to the Bar. Doesn't mean there's any work for you, any more than having an ATPL guarantees an airline job.

Solicitors' firms have been hit by the GFC as badly as other service providers, in that it's cheaper to settle/suck up an injustice than take action, similar to putting up with your five year old car/partner versus getting a new model (even if the old model/car now whines a bit and isn't as shiny as it/she once was :E).

Seriously, many people in the professions are as worried and uncertain as everyone else is. I can't speak for the quacks, but the lawyers aren't nearly as much in control as they like to tell everyone. If you're listening to them banging on about how awesome it all is...just remember, they're professional BS artists who'll lie to you for practice. :cool: The reality? They're as scared as everyone else about what the future holds.

[slamer.]

Region set for travel boom, says Boeing

5:30 AM Wednesday Sep 21, 2011


http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/201139/SCCZEN_A_2009NZHDPAIRLINE06_220x147.JPG Expand (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10753203#)

Boeing's Oceania outlook forecasts 5.5 per cent annual growth in traffic over the next 20 years as the region establishes stronger connections with other Asia-Pacific nations and the world.

New Zealand and Australia will be caught in a global aviation boom that will demand hundreds of thousands of new commercial pilots and technicians over the next two decades, according to projections from Boeing.
Soaring growth will also push fleet modernisation by the world's airlines, and force changes in strategies that are already emerging in the transtasman market.
For Oceania - essentially New Zealand and Australia - the latest annual Boeing pilot and technician outlook predicts that increased traffic, liberalisation of markets and changing business strategies will push demand for aircraft and skills.
It says that around 1000 new aircraft will be delivered to Oceania in the next 20 years, including 670 single-aisle models for routes within the region and to Southeast Asia.
About 260 additional twin-aisle airliners and 30 large aircraft will be needed for international routes. Another 3600 pilots and 15,600 technicians will be required to fly and maintain them.

The Oceania outlook forecasts 5.5 per cent annual growth in traffic over the next 20 years as the region establishes stronger connections with other Asia-Pacific nations and the world.
It says that most of this growth will be driven by flights to and from the region - rather than within it - as the importance of Southeast Asia grows as an waypost to the rest of the world.
Traffic between Australia and China is expected to rise rapidly as demand for flights grows with resources trade and investment, and increasing tourism.
The outlook also forecasts more connecting flights to North America and the Middle East.
It says the region's aviation market has already changed dramatically as airlines redefined themselves amid economic uncertainty, including the launch of Qantas subsidiary Jeststar to counter the rise of rival low-cost carriers.
Virgin Blue had tried to compete with Qantas by creating a spinoff airline, V Australia, but had since changed its strategy and was now rebranding all of its airlines under the name Virgin Australia.
And Air New Zealand had continued to innovate with the introduction this year of its new fleet of long-range, wide-bodied Boeing 777-300ER airliners, fitted with economy Skycouch seats.
But the outlook warns the sector will come under pressures as it competes for skills in an increasingly fierce global market.
Boeing Flight Services chief customer officer Roei Ganzarski said the signs of a global pilot shortage were mounting as airlines expanded their fleets and flight schedules to meet surging demand in emerging markets. Delays and operational disruptions were already beginning to appear in Asia, the strongest-growing market.
"To ensure the success of our industry as travel demand grows, it is critical that we continue to foster a talent pipeline of capable and well-trained aviation personnel," Ganzarski said.
"We are competing for talent with alluring hi-tech companies and we need to do a better job showcasing our industry as a global, technological, multi-faceted environment where individuals from all backgrounds and disciplines can make a significant impact."
The outlook says the wider Asia-Pacific region will require 182,300 new pilots and 247,400 new technicians over the next two decades - especially China, which alone will need 72,700 pilots and 108,300 technicians.
Northeast Asia will need 20,800 pilots and 30,200 technicians, Southeast Asia 47,100 pilots and 60,600 technicians, and Southwest Asia 28,100 pilots and 32,700 technicians.
In addition, Europe will need 92,500 pilots and 129,600 technicians, North America 82,800 pilots and 134,800 technicians, Latin America 41,200 pilots and 52,500 technicians, the Middle East 36,600 pilots and 53,000 technicians, Africa 14,300 pilots and 19,000 technicians, and the CIS (former Soviet republics) 9900 pilots and 13,500 technicians.
To cope, the outlook says the sector will need to keep pace with technology, including online and mobile computing, in order to match the learning styles of pilots and technicians.
"The growing diversity of pilots and maintenance technicians in training will require instructors to have cross-cultural and cross-generational skills in addition to digital training tools and up-to-date knowledge of the airplanes."

GROWTH PATH
* Boeing says around 1000 new aircraft will be delivered to Oceania in the next 20 years.
* Another 3600 pilots and 15,600 technicians will be needed to fly and maintain them.
* Annual growth in Oceania forecast to be 5.5 per cent over 20 years. Pressure will be on for enough pilots and technicians to cater for demand

[Mach E Avelli]

3600 more pilots over the next 20 years in our region is hardly a looming shortage.

And because Management reckon that we live in 'paradise' we will continue to be paid peanuts. And most of us will accept peanuts.

Of course there is always China......

[notaplanegeek]

Icarus2001
Quote:
There has never been a pilot shortage and given the amount of pilots training there never will.
This information is available in the CASA annual reports.

Licences issued each year as below:


YEAR 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

ATPL 373 ... 332 .... 378 ... 488 ... 521 .. 425 486

CPL 804 ...... 670 987 .... 1162 1352 ... 1453 1344

Draw from that whatever conclusion you like but it seems to me that after the drop in training in the early noughties, there has been a rebound.

It is interesting to note the total number existing each year.

Total "current" licences.

.............. 2004 ......... 2010

ATPL .... 6028 ........ 6825

CPL ...... 4019 ........ 4189

Whatever these figures mean there is no question that experience levels for entry level turboprop and jet jobs are getting lower each year. We see it with recruitment. The progression from piston to turboprop to jet was always pretty well followed. Now we see people skip the turboprop step.

I make no comment on whether that is good or bad. I do feel the figures together with anecdotal evidence suggest a tightening supply of pilots.

Did VA negotiate a "good" agreement with their crew to hold on to them?

Many on these board like to compare us to doctors and lawyers. Look how they control their income. You cannot become a GP unless you can get a medicare provider number, these are strictly limited. You also need to be admitted to "the college". Legal numbers are similarly controlled by entry to "the bar". In aviation, anyone with a reasonable brain and enough funds can get a licence and for the most part a paying job.

Someone once told me that your salary is simply a reflection of how hard it is to replace you. Apply that logic to many fields and it seems about right.

I see where you are getting at but this is no reflection to the amount of jobless pilots out there. I remember when I finished my training in 2006, in a stream of 23 only 3 managed to get jobs straight away. About 5 of them never went on to get a flying gig and have since then simply 'given up'. Not because they couldn't be bothered looking, because there were no jobs. Any monkey can fly an airbus or a light turbo prop as companies like Jetstar have proven that is the case and experience is no longer relevant. People with 5,000hrs are queuing up to get a job with Jetstar but funny enough manage to have their applications rejected.

Name another industry to me where people pay about 100K for their education then have to work for free to get experience? Does this sound like to you that there is desperate oversupply or under-supply of pilots?

I'm out there actively looking at the job market and I can tell you it is pretty grim. I recently spoke to an operator up in Darwin operating turboprops over 5.7T and he was receiving three C.V's a day most of them meeting their company requirements.

When those license numbers drop to about half of what they are now then operators are going to find it tight to find pilots who meet their minimum requirements set out in their operations manual.

Oversupply :rolleyes:

[neville_nobody]

Boeing's Oceania outlook forecasts 5.5 per cent annual growth in traffic over the next 20 years as the region establishes stronger connections with other Asia-Pacific nations and the world.

So Boeing are suggesting that in 2024 Oceania's aircraft traffic is going to be double what it is now.......:suspect: Bollocks.

Dare I say impossible without rewriting the regs, improving ATC, building 2nd runways at MEL/BNE and new airports in PER/SYD.

[Anthill]

I'm trying to consider the historical perspective as to why pilot salaries were higher some years ago. Pilots flying mail routes in the US recieved up to $1500 per month in the 1920's (10 cents/mile); a fortune at the time. So what has changed?

Post WWI there was a glut of qualified and experienced pilots. Although various governments were attempting to develop air routes and there were still far more pilots than jobs. Aviation was a still a fairly dangerous persuit back then, even if the Germans weren't trying to kill you. Pilots still had to contend with weather and unreliable machinery. Was it the risk factor that led to high wages?

Ther situation was quite similar after the Second World War. There were many experienced and well trained multi-engine pilots with "international experience" available for the expanding airline industry. Were salaries high in relative terms? I understand that they weren't so flash. Perhaps there was an oversupply of pilots and higher paying jobs were attracting ex-aircrew into other industries. My understanding is that during the 1950's-60's efforts by the pilot's unions improved the T&Cs for their members. Under the prevailing industrial laws, pilots were able to use industrial muscle to improve their lot. Note that under US law during this period, airlines were able to sack staff who went on strike.

Airline de-regulation in the 1970's allowed a plethora of new start carriers in the USA. Many of these employed pilots at half the 'going' rate compared to the incumbant airlines (sounds familiar??). Competition with these new airlines provided the spur for American Airlines and United Air Lines to introduce the first "B scale" salary structures. With these, new pilots were given completely different conditions to those on the "historical contracts". This move was not just aimed at pilots, but to cabin crew and ground staff.

Dispite the dynamic state of the de-regulated environment of the the post 1970's and into the 80's, wide-body captains in the US companies were still able to recieve salaries of around $300,000. This compared with the renumeration offered in the regulated European industry. In Australia, the salaries on offer were not as high for domestic or international pilots, but was bloody good coin by community standards (still is) and comparable to that recieved by mid level legal people and medicos (not now).

The salaries recieved by US pilots who were not flying in the 'mainline' carriers was pretty abismal. These people were employed to operate commuter services for the larger carriers and employed many very experienced people form companies like Eastern who had gone out of business in the deregulated environment. The question arises: was the salaries for pilots who flew Convair 550s and the their replacement typs(Saabs etc. and later regional jets) of a similar low level prior to US de-regulation? Did the ready supply of experienced pilots who were unable to get comparable positions at incumbant airlines (due to seniority) cause an oversupply of talent in an expanding regional market and employers were able to capitalise on this? Is this a further example of datal seniority prohibiting an appropriate match between qualifications and experience with job availability?

While I don't profess to know all (or any!) of the answers, it is my hope that we can use this thread to actually go some where with how to improve our conditions. To this end, I hope that I am asking the right questions. Perhaps some one can fill in the blanks and we can all start to get a clearer picture of what has happend, the current state of play and what we can do in the future. The big question in my mind is does a link exist between market regulation and pilot salaries? If so, then what are the dynamics of the interaction between regulation, labour and salaries?I rather suspect that at the GA and commuter level, relative salaries haven't changed a whole lot over the decades. Anyway that you look at it, a wide body captain on $250K is making a fair stack of money. However, there is no doubt that our T&Cs have stagnated in comparison to the rest of the community.

[Metro man]

A post from 'big brother' in the 'JetStar NZ pilots vote for industrial action' thread, which gives a different point of view regarding 'the pilot shortage

When someone gets their first jet job, pay and conditions take a back seat in their thinking for the first few months while the honeymoon period lasts. First few weeks they're on a high having got out of pistons/turbo props and GA/regionals into the big world.

I was please that I doubled my pay by going from LHS turbo prop to RHS jet. Then I found I was working twice as hard, a 50 hour a month freight job with 40 hours night became a 90 hour a month job with 40 hours night.

After a year or two when the novelty wears off a bit people start looking more at the whole picture, THEN the complaining really starts.

[Keith Nash]

I think this discussion has two perspectives. One perspective is from the Australian pilot market viewpoint and the other is from the Global viewpoint.

That there is a shortage of experienced heavy metal pilots globally, I think is beyond dispute. Boeing is saying it, Airbus is saying it, Middle Eastern Airlines are saying it and Industry associations are saying it.

Will that shortage impact on Australia? Probably not because the average Australian pilot is reluctant to travel within Australia, let alone overseas, and will generally accept inferior conditions to work in Australia.

So for those willing to forgo a future in Australia, there is probably going to be a significant amount of choice, but that choice will potentially come with the price of being a global nomad for the rest of your career.

The supply/demand equation is probably always going to be a bit skewed against us in Australia because we produce a relative high number of pilots for relatively few positions. It is a different story in the Middle East, Asia and the Far East. That is where the shortage is/will be, and that is probably where the money will be.

Having said that, I am supremely confident that the "responsible" regulators will change the rules, lower experience levels and generally turn a blind eye to safety in the pursuit of economic growth. So for me the question is not "is there a shortage?", but rather "will the shortage lead to better conditions for anyone?"

[Icarus2001]

And because Management reckon that we live in 'paradise' we will continue to be paid peanuts. And most of us will accept peanuts.


Can you tell me which airline in Australia pays peanuts?

VA 737 Captains are on upwards of $190K

VA Ejet Captains are on upwards of $140K

Tiger Captains upwards of $180K but pay for parking and uniform.

Even Jetstar Captains are on >$150K

Qantas >$220K

Alliance >$125K

Cobham>$145K

Skywest >$142K

In the turboprop world Metro drivers are on >$70K

Dash 8 guys on >$100K

Please tell me if these figures are out by more than 5%, I am sure someone will.:sad:

Do you really call these figures peanuts? If so compared to what? CX A scale? Emirates perhaps?

[mates rates]

Salaries should be considered relative to what was being paid in the past.In the 80's the union was strong,seniority prevailed,job security was good,a career paths existed,airlines were relatively viable and stable.My salary was $90K as a turbo-prop checkie.This equates to a $175K today,so therein lies the salary comparison of what the job used to be and what it is today,There is no comparison,and that's without mentioning other T&C's.

[Angle of Attack]

Even Jetstar Captains are on >$150K

Your right but had a Jetstar 320 Captain on the jumpseat a few months back and with the max hours (100 a month) they are working he was looking at between 210 and 220k gross for the last financial year. And he was 28 years old! The guys not chasing hours are still around 190k atm, and this is the aussie EBA not the pathetic NZ one I think those captains struggle to make 90k AUD on that crappy award!

[ad-astra]

mate rates

I'm not so sure you want the cost of living and normal day to day items to increase in the same way you expect your salary to appreciate.
Following on from your calculations your twin driver will be on $308,700 in another 30 years and fairly close to half a million next century.

Your $39 fares to Sydney may also disappear.


Look if the past is our only point of perspective then no amount of negotiating with our respective companies will satisfy those stuck in the 60's,70's,80's,90's.

I can only talk about what our negotiators (VB) have achieved and yes it has been a two step forward one step back process but the end result for the VA group of pilots has been a steady and continual improvement to our terms and conditions. The majority are pretty happy with where we are at the moment and are optimistic that a fair EBA will be negotiated at the end of the year.

I don't and have not ever looked back at what I earned in Ansett prior to '89.

Icarus2001 has a valid point which I tried to highlight earlier - one that there are reasonbly well paid jobs in Australia despite the protestations of some who just don't want to see the reality.

Yes there is room for a lot of improvement in GA and Regional but lets have a balanced view of what we have in Australia.

Glass is still half full

[Metro man]

Can you tell me which airline in Australia pays peanuts?

On their own the figures don't look too bad and of course are considerably more than the average non mining job. Try buying a house in a capital city and raising two children, then the figure don't look so bright unless you can add in a working wife's income.

A Skywest captain in Perth with it's mining boom house prices and a wife at home looking after two pre school children will find his $2000 a week after tax doesn't go that far.

The same applies to a QANTAS captain living in Sydney with an ex wife to support as well as a new family.

You'll find the pay rates quoted don't look so great when compared to other professions which had similar incomes to airline pilots back in the 1970/1980s.

[lemel]

Kieth Nash,

I dont think there is a shortage at all, even on a global scale.

If there was a shortage of pilots, why would Cathay reduce the salary and housing allowance that they offer new SO's.

Never has been, never will be a shortage of pilots.

I would never recommend to someone to become a pilot. The job is great, but the industry is a nightmare that continually tries to screw you.

[Chocks Away]

Lemel and others who think there is not a shortage of qualified/experienced crew, may need to look abit beyond their noses.

There is a shortage (http://www.centreforaviation.com/analysis/pilots-and-engineers-in-high-demand-in-asia-to-meet-surging-traffic-and-fleet-growth-59243?utm_source=Aviation+Analyst&utm_campaign=5860ee3086-Aviation_Analyst_22_September_20119_22_2011&utm_medium=email) ...Right now and getting worse. Airlines, especially in Asia are parking airframes against the fence due to not having the required crew(Garuda/Tiger, I won't go on). This current batch of (mis)managers have not foreseen this, refuse to admit it and seek cadetships to try to fill voids and use all types of excuses to cover up their inabilities.

PS Cathay are 200 pilots short right now! Thai/Garuda/Tiger/Air Asia/MAS/PAL/Jstar/PB/ANZ/Skippers/Skywest/APNG/ANG PLUS the Bizjet scene ALL req crew, not to mention the US, India & Eastern block countries! Broaden your scope, people!

[neville_nobody]

I think you are kind of skewing the argument here in that for an Australian to work overseas outside of Cathay or the Middle East you need Jet command time.
Since that in Australia takes roughly around 15ish years from your first flight to get that experience most people don't want the hassle of moving again. GA and or the Air Force is enough hassle for anyone without having to go through it all again in a country where English isn't spoken. No foreign airline is going to take 21 year old 200 hour Australian pilots and park them in the RHS of a 777. The other problem is Europe who don't have all the BS GA to wade through so jet experience is much faster and easier to come by.

[oicur12.again]

“Try buying a house in a capital city and raising two children”

Maybe its time pilots realized our lifestyle is based upon our salary, not the other way around.

“A Skywest captain in Perth with it's mining boom house prices and a wife at home looking after two pre school children will find his $2000 a week after tax doesn't go that far.”

Try renting. That’s what most of the worlds population does.

“The same applies to a QANTAS captain living in Sydney with an ex wife to support as well as a new family.”

Good grief. Silly market driven salary didn’t factor in a divorce.

“Since that in Australia takes roughly around 15ish years from your first flight to get that experience”

This comment is tongue in cheek I assume?

[struggling]

Pilots and engineers in high demand in Asia to meet surging traffic and fleet growth (http://centreforaviation.us1.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=9fd45cab90f09a9a18b2618c7&id=177e7924d9&e=18f83c5fb3)

Asia Pacific's booming aviation sector is facing a serious pilots shortfall resulting in some carriers reducing services and grounding new aircraft, Boeing said this week. Shortages are most acute in China, India, Indonesia and the Philippines. The worldwide aviation sector will require more than one million pilots and technicians by 2030, and the supply of these personnel is failing to keep up with demand. As the world's commercial fleet expands over the next 20 years, airlines will need to add 460,000 pilots and 650,000 maintenance technicians, according to Boeing’s Pilot and Technician Outlook released this month.

Source: Pilots and engineers in high demand in Asia to meet surging traffic and fleet growth | CAPA (http://www.centreforaviation.com/analysis/pilots-and-engineers-in-high-demand-in-asia-to-meet-surging-traffic-and-fleet-growth-59243?utm_source=Aviation+Analyst&utm_campaign=5860ee3086-Aviation_Analyst_22_September_20119_22_2011&utm_medium=email)

[mates rates]

Look at the productivity gains the companies have had since the 80's.This is where your $49 SYD-MEL fare should come from.Most airlines then were glad to get 500 hours a year out of a pilot.Now they have halved the salary and double the flying hours.If this is not exploitation of a passion I don't know what is!!There will always be wannabies prepared to be exploited, but where will the experience come from for the LHS longterm? This is where the shortage will occur.

[romeocharlie]

It's all well and good to spruik all the Captains wages in Australia, feel free to post all the salaries from all the GA companies here.

The BEST paid job I'd had for 7 years was $23,800 - Fortunately the award is slightly higher now and I'm on about $48,000. I'm proud of the company I work for, but don't sit there and tell me everyone is getting more than peanuts.

As for that renting comment :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Azzure]

1960's Airline Pilot - Actually flew the aircraft, with minimal if any computer systems. Navigator required for longer flights which involves a degree of skill.

2011 Airline Pilot - Monitors the systems, computer fly's the aircraft and the GPS/INS etc. navigates.

As much as I hate to think about it, airline pilots are now 95% systems operator 5% hands on pilot. And this is how the public and management view the position. This is reflected by the modern day hiring practices of airlines around the world, cadetships take your young individuals who suit the role and place them in the cockpit after teaching them the basics of flying with a big emphasis on systems management and human factors. As a result your multi crew license was born. :(

From the perspective of one of the worlds largest mining companies, a big emphasis is placed on requirements of the crew's who operate smaller aircraft (B200) etc. because of the hands on nature of the flying which is conducted, they dont ask for 2000k TT + for the hell of it and even then we are seeing ever increasing levels of automation in these smaller aircraft. To attract this experience they do pay a premium in the market.

And yes I agree that the 1% of the time when something goes severely wrong in any aviation environment, the experience of the crew goes a long way. However the risk analysts have decided that its an acceptable risk to see what the systems operators can do in that situation.

Now train drivers make as much and in many cases more than half the captains salaries listed in the above post. Why is this? It is not supply and demand, there are plenty of punters who want the job. (look at all the train nuts out there)
I can only bring it back to the position and the degree of manual input and decision making by the driver. Put it this way a train that breaks in half is the most common incident in rail ops, with a significant cost to the company each time it occurs $500k - $1m + per incident in lost revenue. This is almost always attributed with driver error. With driver input having such an effect on bottom line it makes sense to pay them a high salary. (well that is the opinion of a general manager from one of our big miners)

[priapism]

GFC mark 2 on the way = pilot excess. Economics 101

[Oakape]

As much as I hate to think about it, airline pilots are now 95% systems operator 5% hands on pilot. And this is how the public and management view the position


The public view it that way because, after a number of very public battles over T & C's, the management have convinced them that is the case.

And the management view it that way because the two major manufacturers have convinced them that that is the case, in their never ending quest to sell aircraft & to out sell each other.

That doesn't make the perception accurate. And it sure doesn't enhance safety. I spend a fair proportion of my working day or night dealing with problems created by some of the new technology that was supposed to make my life easier or make me redundant. Sure I don't physically handle the controls as much as in years gone by, but I do spend a lot of time managing the flight. There is a lot more to piloting than just manipulating the controls. That is not a new phenomenon - it has always been that way. And flight management in all phases of normal & non-normal flight is something a computer, or a systems operator, is notoriously bad at.


the risk analysts have decided that its an acceptable risk to see what the systems operators can do in that situation.


A number of recent accidents have shown exactly what the systems operators do in 'that' situation. That is why the FAA & others are starting to pay some attention to the matter.

And I am starting to get fed up with risk analysts, along with the many others, who feel that it is acceptable to 'play the stats' with my life & the lives of my family & friends when they chose to travel by air.

The reasonable & acceptable risk everyone takes when they walk out the door each day to participate in life, is fast becoming unreasonable & unacceptable when it comes to air travel.

[lemel]

Chocks away,

It is simple. Salaries do not get reduced if there is a shortage of pilots. Companies also won't make guys pay for their endorsements if there is a shortage. Until I see an upward trend in salaries, I won't believe the smoke and mirrors.

-QF are making pilots redundant.
-Jetstar hold interviews under the premise candidates will be working in oz, but then get told the only jobs are in Singapore or enzed on inferior conditions. So people tell them to stick it and they wonder why they can't get guys/gals.
- skippers pay poorly, but more importantly, treat their crews very badly (I wonder why they can't get or retain crew).
- Skywest are most certainly not parking aircraft due to a lack of crew. What a joke.
- As I mentioned in my earlier post, Cathay have reduced their salaries and housing allowance (FYI I know numerous guys that have told them thanks, but no thanks for this reason).
- Tiger make their crew pay for their own uniforms and parking at the airport. Enough said on that one.
- Garuda.... Are you kidding me? What exactly do these guys pay?

Let's say there is an airline parking aircraft due to a crew shortage (I have heard something about H.K.Exress - although don't quote me on it). How long do you think there will be a shortage if they increased salaries by 50% for example?

If anything, there is a shortage of pilots that will work for poor pay and conditions. :ugh:

[slamer.]

And in the 1950's/60's there were 2 pilots a flight engineer, radio operator and Navigator. (sometimes the FO did a bit of Nav and/or Radio)

Not sure if they supp crewed in those days?

[bigbrother]

BEware the fickle winds of change. The EU and US economies looking ready to crash. Watch out as pilot recruitment goes backwards yet again.
It is my humble opionion the industry lurches from feast to famine but we can have some influence in steadying the ship. We can't have someone making $380,000 as a Captain of an A380, and an SO of same making $180,000 plus and FO somewhere inbetween, while guys doing essentially the same job on anything from Metro to Dash8 making $45k-$65K(FO), $75K-$95K (Capt). Is it me or is this simply ludicrous? An airline will struggle to simply put enough bums on seats to pay for crew wages alone, even if they were charging what an air seat should cost.

There has never been a 'big picture'view and plan taken (free market economy) to regulate and implant some sence to this.
I would suggest must less bitching amongst collegues, fights with management and unions etc....if the 'Industry' produced a White Paper 20 year plan for wages. yes the guys at the top of the tree might come down (a little) but pull up the guys at the bottom to a reasonable and livable level, comensurate with the qualification (same for everyone ATPL) and experience.

So, I'll never get a consencus on this one but open to the floor, what do you think your really worth?

I will start the bidding at FO $120K, Capt $200K first year

This will probably light up the thread with arguments but let's keep it civil, and think of it as a big picture discussion. STABILISE THE INDUSTRY.

Treat this as an discussion excersize with ourselves the benificiary of better undertanding what we are actually WORTH. I might be a little low to start, given a plumber is now on $100/hr but it's a start.

I'm ****ting myself that we are about to see pilots driving cabs again if the economy hits a tree

[Howard Hughes]

I might be a little low to start, given a plumber is now on $100/hr but it's a start.
And the plumber covers all his overheads from this, as an employee your company covers all your overheads!:rolleyes:

[Howard Hughes]

So how does a metro carrying $320k worth of flight crew wages make money?
Fill the seats with Miners?:E

[neville_nobody]

We can't have someone making $380,000 as a Captain of an A380, and an SO of same making $180,000 plus and FO somewhere inbetween,

Yet we have the CEO taking home 70%+ pay rises:hmm: Is that affordable?

[Metro man]

For the companies a shortage of pilots means they can't get what they want at the price they want to pay.

Advertise a right seat jet job with a free endorsement and $250 000 salary for bare CPL holders and you will be fighting them off with a stick.

Advertise a B777 Captain position requiring check and training approvals 10 000 hours total/5000 command on type offering a $100 000 salary and I doubt you'd get a single response.

There is NO shortage of applicants for airline F/O positions from pilots with a new licence/no endorsement/no time on type/no jet time etc.

There is a shortage of endorsed/experienced/high standard jet captains in the growing markets of Asia and the Middle East, with companies in less desirable locations and those who offer lesser terms and conditions finding it worse.

In Asia an A320 Captain with a good licence who performs well on a sim check can walk into a job virtually anywhere right now, especially a trainer. Less desirable locations such as inland China are having to put some attractive $$$ on the table.

Hold files are still full of applicants who will need lots of training and $$$ spending on them. Bins are full of applications from those totally unsuitable.

[Slasher]

From 40deg on page 1 -
....and have serious doubts as to whether I will even retire there now.
I've done only the odd visit to Oz over the past 20 years and
copped a dose of culture shock each time. The PC, rampant
AGW, commies and restrictive bull**** even just to go buy a
packet of Codrals at the chemist shop are disgusting in the
extreme - and don't even get me started on the tax! :yuk:

As "unboiled" frogs 40deg we've been away for so long we no
longer fit in. Our offshore lifestyles are way above anything
we could hope to retain in Oz, and the country is so bloody
expensive you can say goodbye to the luxuries you take for
granted overseas.

I'm resolved never to go back except for the odd visit every 5
or so years, and those pilots I do know in Oz with any talent I
give encouragement to get out of the place in order to realise
their full potential. Staying in the so-called "lucky country" is
anything but.

[bigbrother]

I think the answer is charge a realistic price pre seat to fly :eek: And I also agree with the post that Executives high salaries are completely out of step. I have posted numerous times, that pilots are required to reach performance standards, nothing are seemingly required of over paid execs and useless HR departments

[Sausage Stuffer]

To return to the pros and cons of the datal seniority system, why in an industry full of smart people, is there no such thing as an "industry seniority number" (for want of a better term)?

About 30 years ago , I was perusing the magazine library of the Union office of the overseas airline I was flying for at the time, and came across an essay on the subject written by (I think ) a US airline captain.
He proposed a kind of a points system --licence issue date was a part of it, but mostly it was a complex assignment of weightings to your flying history--types, acheivement levels,hours, etc etc and ended up with a big multi-digit number.
If memory serves me, I think this was intended to be used to help out in a major airline merger/takeover situation of the day ,where the now familiar bogey man of two seniority ladders being pushed together was about to be faced.
It was not a replacement for datal company seniority, but an addition to it--I guess to be used when transferring to a new employer--slotting in at first in accordance with your "industry number" and then datal as usual within the Company after that.

I dont know what became of it, but I often think of the idea when I read yet again about highly experienced airline pilots starting at the bottom again over and over again through no fault of their own.

To use an old example, a doctor does not start over washing bedpans just because he transfers to a new hospital.
Surely there is a system apart from "datal with one company only" that can work--you can bet the airline industry executive collective would be dead against it--which is a case of the gauges trying to tell you something.
Datal seniority serves mainly as handcuffs (bad for you--unless you like that sort of thing....and good for them)

Does anyone know whether systems such as this exist anywhere in todays' airline pilot world --and if so how effective is it?

My only reservation is that it would need the entire world wide pilot body to stick together ---and do something which involve delayed gratification.

[40Deg STH]

Im on the old terms at CX, and ex Aus GA. Wow, how have have changed. Buying type ratings, doing ICUS for free. Wow.Where have we gone wrong? Its old and new pilots to blame.
We need to get hard and fight for better terms,all we have done (you) is cheapen the industry. Thank goodness my children have no wish to fly. They want to fly for pleasure but not for money. They grew up where no money was enough for them not to have a DAD home. These prick accountants have no idea. I would come home after a east coast US trip and not be smile for a week.
I spoke to a collegue who said that one child phsyc was seeing 4 of CX pilots. And again accountants want us to work for less!!!
So my fellow Aussie pilots.........You decide!! DO WANT the big shiny jet for peanuts? or are you smarter?

PS I have been to the australian industrial courts, there great and close to bars to celerbrate your win. STRIKE NOW and dont be ****** over. Family needs you

[Metro man]

To use an old example, a doctor does not start over washing bedpans just because he transfers to a new hospital.

Reminds me of the story of an American B727 Captain whose company went bust. Two years out of work before he got another job starting as a flight engineer on the same type, then becoming a first officer again until he could get back in the left hand seat. All up about eight years to get back to where he was previously.:eek:

The system survived due to the relatively long upgrade time in legacy airlines with ten to twenty years being normal. Nobody left and upgrades depended on someone either dying or retiring. There were plenty of ten year first officers who had been ready for promotion for the last five or six years and taking direct entry captains would have been unfair on them. DECs are acceptable where there are no first officers suitable to upgrade or for an expanding start up which needs experienced captains immediately.

Also the number of major airlines in a country is limited and can usually be counted on one hand, where as there are several hospitals in every town and city giving the opportunity to slot a doctor in at a level appropriate to his qualifications and experience without treading on anyone elses toes.

[Zapatas Blood]

"GFC mark 2 on the way = pilot excess."

yep, except this time C will be collapse, not crisis.

[KRUSTY 34]

Truly terrifying stuff ZB

I fear only airlines that can afford to park significant numbers of their fleets without going bankrupt will survive.

Worst case I know, but I have a bad feeling. Hope I (We) Are wrong.

[Anthill]

S Stuffer: Wash your mouth out with soap! When you challege the sacred cow of seniority, you invite all sorts of accusations from being a 'queue jumper' to $c@b. Have you not heard,that those who use some common sense approach to promotion are howled down as being down there with the kiddy fiddlers? :}

I actually read the same article some time ago and element of it were reasonable and logical. as you say, there are practical difficulties with an "industry seniority" number. Ansett post '89 had an "Experience Number for Promotion" which used a similar approach to generation of promotional order and ranking. Pilots were required to submit log books to a JP and swear oaths on their hours flown. In one comic example, an individual claimed that his log book was clasified a secret by the US military as he undertook 1000's of hours of spy and covert missions :hmm:

As someone who is now, through no fault of my own, re-building my aviation career for the 3rd time :uhoh:, I would suppport such a system. However I think that companies should be able to promote the person with the most merit. THis could mean DEs where no suitable person exists in the organisation for promotion. It would also mean that an experienced and well qualified pilot should get promoted over someone who has scant experience. Having said this, time in the company is one constituant of merit.

The application of datal seniority is full of holes anyway. Witness the number of companies that say they promote datally, yet find loopholes or massage the system to promote who they want. A proper 'merit' based system would have a promotions committee with representation from the C&T system and unions and even a rank and file nominated observer as well as management. This would ensure fairness ans transparency

[MR MACH]

Slasher Post #68

just to go buy a packet of Codrals at the chemist shop are disgusting in the extreme -

You obviously don't travel much:Pseudoephedrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoephedrine#United_States)

Look at the other nations that restrict drugs that have Pseudoephedrine.

and don't even get me started on the tax!

That was your opinion but here is the objective data:2009 Tax Misery & Reform Index - Forbes.com (http://www.forbes.com/global/2009/0413/034-tax-misery-reform-index.html)


I'm resolved never to go back except for the odd visit every 5 or so years
Why would you bother if it is such an awful place?

We don't miss whingers one little bit!

If you want something to complain about buy a "one way" ticket to Greece.

[Metro man]

I'm with slasher here, Australia is a nice place to visit and I enjoy doing so every 2-3 years. But the 45% tax bracket and left wing politically correct nanny state I can do without.

It's a great place to be non working single mother or to enjoy an alternative lifestyle at tax payer expense. Where else would a woman choose to get a divorce with the system so biased in her favour ?

For a straight white male who's not milking the system it's not so great.

I'll stay in Asia and have a millionaire lifestyle on airline pay.:E

[V-Jet]

Im with slasher and metro man.

It gets worse and worse. Try owning a boat or a car and using the way you would use them in any other country in the world!

The union movement has developed into a mass of people whose expertise is simply in putting yellow stickers on corners of anything lest someone bump into them. This has carried itself through to the highest levels of lawmaking.

It is very depressing to be in Australia from that perspective.

And yes, ludicrously expensive for basic things.

[bugsquash1]

And count me in if the AUD and cost of living stays high.

I not to mention personal safety is better in Asia discounting Bali.

[framer]

I not to mention personal safety is better in Asia discounting Bali.
bwaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha:D:D:D

[40Deg STH]

Framer, you need to get out and venture more outside a little more. I would never go out in so many parts of Sydney and feel safe. Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, Taiwan and so many other parts of Asia are so much safer than Sydney. I feel very happy to let my children to go out alone in HK, but not a hope in Sydney.
The Chinese value families and children and could teach Australians so much. Just look how the Australian courts send pedophiles free and DOC's never look after those they should.All you have to do is open an Australian paper most days to see these stories re-occuring.
I think the only dangerous part of asia is the taxi and mini bus drivers:E
I'm staying here for the safety of my family and the strong family values here!
Framer, all the best in Sydney, although I would suggest (for your sake and personal growth) you atleast get out and see what this wonderful culture has to offer.

[MR MACH]

Again subjective!

40Deg STH -I would never go out in so many parts of Sydney and feel safe.
BUT it doesn't agree with this objective data - 3 independent surveys.

The Economist's World's Most Liveable Cities 2011 (Top 10)
World's most livable cities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_most_livable_cities)

Notice the Asian cities NOT in the in the Top 10 list!

The Economist's World's Most Liveable Cities 2011 (Top 10)

City Country Rating
1 Melbourne Australia 97.5
2 Vienna Austria 97.4
3 Vancouver Canada 97.3
4 Toronto Canada 97.2
5 Calgary Canada 96.6
6 Sydney Australia 96.1
7 Helsinki Finland 96.0
8 Perth Australia 95.9
9 Adelaide Australia 95.9
10 Auckland New Zealand 95.7

Mercer Quality of living survey
Quality of Living Survey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_of_Living_Survey)

Also - Most Liveable Cities Index - Monocle Magazine
Important criteria in this survey are safety/crime,

So - did they get all these surveys wrong?

[E&H]

Slasher, metro man et al...count me in as well...left 3 years ago...looking back it was the best move I ever made in aviation (there have'nt been many so I wouldn't get too excited)...coming back to australia and watching some of the morning shows and what makes for news here is a real shock...little Johnny was bullied at school etc...unbelievable!!!

Still...stop telling everyone or you'll ruin a good thing

[MR MACH]

little Johnny was bullied at school etc...unbelievable!!!

This is really truly important stuff and should be included in national surveys.

When you & your family renounce their Australian Citizenship then maybe you will have some credibility.

BUT it never happens as most of the expatriates want to to retire here - they can't stop humming" I still call Australia Home"

I haven't met one "whinger" that has given up their Australian Citizenship.

Until then don't waste our time with such trivial claims!

[40Deg STH]

MR MACH, do you still believe in the tooth fairy and santa? :E Slasher, Metro et el Aren't we greatful some people don"t have passports!! :ok: hahahahahahaa

PS, You must be the only person who believes what they read in press. :E

Hey MACH, we have lived in Aus, Asia, and many other parts of the world, so we are informed. We also have houses ( we all need holidays houses in Europe, asia and Aus lol:D) in many parts of the globe, so don't bring a knife to a gun fight son:ugh: And for the record......why would I want to retire there with such insular people. I love Aus, but equally love so many other places and cultures. Australia has NO culture.

Well I'm now off my soap box, time to take the family for Yum Cha:ok:

[MR MACH]

You must be the only person who believes what they read in press.

No but the Economist magazine (first published 1843) has more credibility than you! It is objective not subjective. It is worth the subscription - you might learn a thing or two.

Hey MACH, we have lived in Aus, Asia, and many other parts of the world, so we are informed

So Have I - First lived in Asia in 1964 - I have lived in Asia for years.

why would I want to retire there with such insular people.
Well - How is this for insularity?
Australia has NO culture
Can you provide us with a link to back up this outlandish statement?

Most people like you cannot back up your statements with independent data - when you can, then you attain some credibility.

Your responses are opinion with no credible facts or a link to back up your position.

[40Deg STH]

MACH, Sydney morning Hearald was first published 1831, do you believe all you read there ?:D

Please enjoy Aus for all of us and I'm pleased your happy to be there:ok:

[oicur12.again]

I dont have much interest in this totally subjective nonsense.

But, this still has me laughing:

"Australia has NO culture"

. . . . followed by

"Can you provide us with a link to back up this outlandish statement?"

Your opinion is only valid if you can provide an interweb address thingy to prove it!!!!

Priceless.

[MR MACH]

MACH, Sydney morning Hearald was first published 1831
It is actually the Sydney Morning Herald!

It is quite obvious that you have never heard of the Economist magazine - but then I am not surprised!
Here are some links:
The Economist - World News, Politics, Economics, Business & Finance (http://www.economist.com/)
The Economist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist)

The Economist Intelligence Unit also does regular surveys:Economist Intelligence Unit (http://www.eiu.com/public/)

I'd suggest that you write to them and tell them that their survey is wrong.

Th Economist magazine is regarded as the best Economic magazine in the World bar none.

[Anthill]

How about we stick to the topic and have a review of salaries now/then? After some calculation using the RBA inflation adjustment calculator, I arrived at the following: (salary then/inflation adj.)

GA SE pilot 1984: Then $19,000/ Now $46,500.

GA PA31 pilot SAL 1989: $28,000/$50,250.

Heavy Turbo-prop FO 1992 (with O/T): $65,000/$104,000.

Wide body international FO 1997: $135,000/$194,000.
-----------------------------------
Although I never flew SA340 the KD salaries were about (and I am happy to be corrected):

1989 FO: $38,000/$68,200
CA: $52,000/$93,300

I don't know for sure what GA salaries are like now, but I suspect that purchasing power has remained about the same for GA pilots (perhaps even gone up).

[MR MACH]

oicur12.again - I dont have much interest in this totally subjective nonsense.
Again I am not surprised. Here is some education on the subject.

OBJECTIVITY & SUBJECTIVITY
The difference between these two important ideas is the difference between fact and opinion.
Facts are objective and provably true; however, if no clear facts exist about a topic, then a series of balanced opinions needs to be produced to allow the reader to make up his or her mind; opinions are subjective ideas held by individuals and so are always biased. If unbalanced opinions are presented as if they are facts, they act as propaganda or persuasion, e.g. a newspaper headline might state: "Youngsters are the prime cause of trouble in this area". This is presented as an objective fact but is clearly a subjective opinion.

A good example:I would never go out in so many parts of Sydney and feel safe.

An objective piece of information, therefore, needs either to be the whole truth and at least be unbiased or balanced,(eg The Economist) whereas a subjective point of view is biased because it is either not the complete picture or it is merely a viewpoint or expression of feelings.
Objective + Subjective (http://www.englishbiz.co.uk/popups/objectivity.htm)

[dogebros]

I've got a good idea. Why doesn't the aviation industry follow the medical fraternity by protecting their salaries and conditions? They do this by making people do a university degree in medicine before being allowed to practice. The key here is they then are able to manage their industry as opposed to being managed by accountants by limiting the number of entrants in the first place thus avoiding oversupply of doctors. If there is always the minimum number entering you will never give employers the chance to say "if you don't like it then we will shake a tree and another pilot will fall out!" I think that is where our industry has got it wrong.

[framer]

Framer, you need to get out and venture more outside a little more.
I,ve lived and flown in asian countries, just not Hong Kong, or Japan or Singas. (Although I,ve passed through).
It still cracks me up what you said :ok:

[golfjet744]

[quote]Quote:
You guys really had my support until I read this thread - this makes you look like a bunch of private school kids sooking that the school tuckshop is out of cream buns...

I hope the media come across this and go to town on you all.

Mate, don't judge a whole profession on the opinions of a couple of clowns.

I agree with you that some of the opinions in this thread are astonishing.

What people get paid is based on economics and self worth. If managers can convince you your worthless, then you'll accept T&Cs at less than what the economics can afford. An inflated self worth doesn't change the economics, it only ends up pricing you out of the market.

[A37575]

Quote:
Australia has NO culture
Can you provide us with a link to back up this outlandish statement?
..

No Kulcher? :D How about the sight and sound of 95,550 screaming Bogans at the MCG on Saturday and you say no culture:ok:

[40Deg STH]

Back to the topic.

How do you stop the decline?

[pull-up-terrain]

Similar thing has happened to Civil Engineers. In 2006 the government claimed there was going to be an engineering shortage. All the uni's expanded their engineering facilities and ended up pumping out more civil engineers than entry level graduate jobs. Prior to the 'civil engineering job shortage' the RTA had a cadetship for civil engineers. First year salary for a graduate engineer was $70k (which was very good money). Now it has dropped down to $30k (the minimum salary a fulltime engineer can earn in Australia) in just 5 years. Because the conditions are so bad for graduate engineers, some have been moving to Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Qatar and Singapore for better conditions.

On the way home from Brisbane the other day I was talking to a Mining Engineer who does the FIFO. Their conditions have been eroding too. A few years ago they would do a 1 week on, 1 week off roster. Now, because there is so many people wanting to work in the mines, they now employ miners to do 2 weeks on 1 week off for the same amount of pay as a miner who does 1 week on, 1 week off. :ugh:

Some how we need to get rid of those desparate people who are willing to work for less.

[Oakape]

Some how we need to get rid of those desparate people who are willing to work for less.

Somehow I don't think that is going to happen - ever! There are less & less jobs & more & more people wanting them, as the world population expands.

Automation started the decline in available jobs & now it is becoming regional as offshoring becomes common place, with business continually looking to cut costs.

At the moment it is a matter of choice in our part of the world. The preferred jobs are seeing more people wanting those jobs than the number of jobs available, causing a decline in T&C's. However there is a trend, even in developed countries, for reducing numbers of jobs & increasing numbers of job seekers. It may not be long before people will take any job, even if the pay is poor, just to put food on the table. And that will even affect the aviation industry, with many people trained to do little else.

[blackhand]

No Kulcher?

Bull crap we got Kulchur hanging out our arse:cool:

[Icarus2001]

There are less & less jobs & more & more people wanting them, as the world population expands.

That is a completely non-sensical argument. A greater world population demands more people to serve them and thereby generate more jobs.

Come back when you have researched pilot numbers in Oz over the last forty years.:rolleyes:

[Oakape]

A greater world population demands more people to serve them and thereby generate more jobs.

Now that is a completely non-sensical argument. And a simplistic one as well.

[Metro man]

A VB 737 Captain gets about $250,000, a QF A380 SO gets $180,000... And you guys have have the audacity to cry poor? Really? You know what the average "non-sky god" in this country earns per year? They don't get to fly for a living they work in shops, clean houses ect.

The average non-sky god isn't responsible for a US$500 000 000 insurance risk every time he goes to work, has the lives of 200 people in his hands and has his career on the line every time he does a medical or sim check.

[74world]

Guys, the bottom line is not really how much you make, but where do you want to live and how much is your "Quality of Life" worth?
Either you accept it or not, OZ and NZ are the BEST countries to live in !
Sure the airlines in the Middle East are paying a good salary and providing all sorts of free bits like accommodation but why? Because they have to, if not, only guys from 3rd world countries would see the move there as a step forward...... in exchange you must be prepared to be away from HOME (your own country), family, friends etc.....in other words live in a golden jail !

Asia isn't better, the money is liveable, but no "FREE BITS". Except in Singapore but Singapore Airlines is the only airline providing an accommodation allowance. Of course not enough to rent a NICE 3 bedrooms apartment but at least it's something.

IN THE WEEDS: are you sure that a VB Capt make $250K? a mate in VB based in BNE as a 73 CAPT told me that his last salary was $201K GROSS so about $135K NET/year. Not bad at all if you ask me don't you agree????

Apart from Doctors, Lawyers and CEOs, do you know many people making $135K NET/year in BNE ? I'm sure you would agree that it is a bloody good salary and that's WITHOUT having to live in a ****ty country in the Middle East or Asia.

Food for thoughts :cool:

[mcgrath50]

74W, but where do we draw the line? Would you work for 120k to live here, 100k? 80k? 40k?

That is the issue that we are fighting against.

[74world]

mcgrath50 what I'm saying is that $135K for a Capt position based in BNE isn't bad compare to more money overseas but having to live in a ****ty country.
If you think that money is everything in life, then go overseas for the "big bucks" and sacrifice your quality of life. It's a way of thinking which I don't agree with but it's your choice.... :)

What would be a good salary in OZ: 180K? 200K? 250K?

PS: to answer your last question, YES I would sign anytime for $135K NET/year based in BNE. Let me know who I should contact for that :ok:

[40Deg STH]

74world, sorry but you do not help the situation:ugh: I read lots of your previous posts on other threads. Sadly your the type of pilot wishing to return that annoys the guys who have stayed, and I have to agree all the others. It appears you never made a flag carrier, so decide to return home on lower terms and therefore continue the downward spiral, next thing you will be offering to pay for your rating:rolleyes:

[Anthill]

So 40 south, you feel that when some one leaves to go overseas, that this is to be a 'one way trip'? These people must never return, except unless they 'join the queue at the bottom', eh. Anywhere in the queue, eh, as long as it's below YOU!

Those who have been overseas for work have every moral, ethical and lawful right to return to Australia and you are way out of line to infer otherwise. I have some advice: get a grip, have a look at the real world and do some growing up :cool:

---------------------------------------------------------

I am continuely amazed at the outright self-centered BS that comes out of pilots mouths. The recent VA LH EBA, for example, where the SFOs have had their career path subverted, apparently for the "good of the majority". Well, all very nice, unless you are the one who has just been screwed over.

"Oh yes, but in any EBA there must be winners as well as losers". Must? Must??!! I get it, some pilots are happy if some of their workmates get a raw deal as long as they come out with a 'win': a real f#$%^ you, Jack, I'm alright mentality. THIS is part of the issue. No one can 'win' if another workmate loses. To think otherwise...that is immoral and unethical! Ever heard this one?:

"United we stand, divided we beg"

When pilots say "must be some winners and losers" an instant division is created. So who, then, wins??? Hmmm?? Here, I am reminded of Joseph Heller in Catch 22:

Yossarian: " Doc, from now on, I'm only going to think about myself".

Doc Daneeka: "But Yossarian, suppose everybody thought that way".

Yossarian: "Well, then I'd be a damn fool to think any differently".

:{

[74world]

40Deg STH, you are correct when you say: "it APPEARS that you never made a flag carrier......."
For info I am working for a FLAG CARRIER :E (not in OZ) but I've NEVER PAID for a type rating or flew for FREE.

Anthill, could not agree more with your post ! :ok:

[Anthill]

Also witness the slfishness from some quarters who insist that over '60s pilots retire so as to make room for the younger ones who "need to move up" :hmm:

Will these guys retire when they turn 60 for the same reasons?

I doubt it :zzz:

[Tankengine]

Nope, I'll be gone by 57!:ok:

[Icarus2001]

It appears you never made a flag carrier I wonder how many people on here actually know what that even means?

[RATpin]

Tank,you have obviously missed out on A.I.D.S.
Wish I could say the same.

[Keg]

If pilots are so thick on the ground, why were two J* captains allegedly traveling to Mexico (via LAX in P class with QF) to seek more of them? I suspect there are fewer of them around than management are keen to admit.