Air show crash - mods what is the problem?

[Luke SkyToddler]

For heaven's sake why are you mods so determined to close / delete / move threads related to the recent air show crashes off the front page and into the "private flying" forum? The Reno Air Race is big big business and far removed from "private flying" I assure you, when 9 people are confirmed dead so far, it's the biggest aviation news story of the year in most world newspapers, but not good enough for headlines on pprune :hmm:

Jimmy Leeward was ten times more of a "Professional Pilot" than most of us airbus / boeing jocks could ever hope to be. His full time career was air racing and owning the Leeward Air Ranch, he also appeared as a stunt pilot in numerous movies, flew that P51 like a god, and lived / breathed the spirit of aviation for just about all of his 70+ years. A lot of folk are interested in the story and want to pay their respects.

He deserves a little bit more respect than he's been shown here.

[overun]

lt doesn`t fit the bill does it ? Affecting the jobs and lives of professional pilots.

[keezy44]

Luke, I agree, this is hot news worldwide and it got moved. My wife and I were directly under him when he rolled inverted after his abrupt pull up and went into a vertical descent coming right at us. We had a few seconds to do something but not enough time to make a difference in the outcome. He crashed 300 feet from us killing 9 people with body parts and debris flying everywhere injuring quite a few of my friends ending up with blood and flesh covering their clothing.

Guess refusing to go around in China because you are low on fuel has priority to deaths in Reno.

[overun]

Guess you`re right.

What gives you the right to call " hold the press" ? Never seen a serious car accident before ?

[Luke SkyToddler]

Overrun - would you call Schumacher a "non professional" driver because he doesn't drive a 50 ton truck?

[con-pilot]

What gives you the right to call " hold the press" ? Never seen a serious car accident before ?

Point of order. This is not a car drivers website, It is supposed to be for pilots and people related to the aviation industry.

Too bad some moderators cannot remember that.

But it is, what it is. I've learned to live with this.

:rolleyes:

[overun]

lndeed it isn`t.

So, is the description of " blood and flesh covering clothing " relevant then ?

May l suggest that you read the full title at the top of the page ?

[con-pilot]

May l suggest that you read the full title at the top of the page ?

May I suggest you read the full name of this website?

I also happen to be an aircraft accident investigator, I know all about "blood and flesh covering clothing". More than I'll ever forget.

The Reno Air Races have been going on for 47 years. This the first time a spectator has been injured, let alone killed. As tragic as this is, figure the odds. You have better odds of being killed by a falling satellite than being killed at the Reno Air Races as a spectator.

[deSitter]

He deserves a little bit more respect than he's been shown here.

Not really - this is clearly his fault - he broke his airplane by pushing it too far in a turn, which is fine if you want to risk your own life, but then there was that pesky crowd in the way too...

This is a real classic screwed pooch.

-drl

[con-pilot]

Not really - this is clearly his fault - he broke his airplane by pushing it too far in a turn, which is fine if you want to risk your own life, but then there was that pesky crowd in the way too...


Oh really, what year did you graduate from NTSB Aircraft Accident Investigator school then? I did in 1995.

[Farrell]

DeSitter:

One of your first ever posts on this forum was:

"I am a physicist, not a pilot, so I promise to say nothing stupid about flying or commercial aviation."

I suggest you go and meditate on that , as your latest post is just disrespectful drivel.

The post below, my dear expert of the skies, is your best by far and shows those who matter, what they are dealing with.

"I live under a waypoint for KATL on the way to RWY 26 - the jets pass over at 8-11 thousand feet typically, parallel to the runways in the opposite direction, before turning 180 into the airport. This afternoon a 767 passed over at no more than 2! and perhaps as low as 1,500 - really quite low - the plane seemed in no distress and the engines sounded perfectly normal - he was headed (fortunately!) toward the field - is it common for a go-around to fly so low? What would explain it? I've lived here for 5 years and that's a first for me, a keen spotter. Thanks in advance."

[con-pilot]

l seriously doubt the satelite. The satelites circle continuously and the air races take place when ?


Satelites, what's a satelite? If you are referring to satellites, one is due to come out of orbit in the next day or so and hit the Earth, you have a better chance or the same chances of being kill by it, than as a spectator at the Reno Air Races.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see your point, if in fact you have one.



Hey Farrel, thanks, good to see you around again. Hope all is still well.

[overun]

Con, just spill. You seem to be hurting.

[con-pilot]

l am a licenced pilot, ATPL with 13,500hrs, gliding gold " C", with 3 diamonds, just over 2500hrs and some 10,000+ instructional flights. And the various instructor ratings you would expect.



Well, I'm very happy for you.

Con, just spill. You seem to be hurting.

Spill what? And no, not hurting, whatever you mean by that.

Just out of interest, who are "those who matter" apart from yourself of course ?

Well, ya got me. I didn't post what you have in quotes. As for abuse, what abuse?

[Green-dot]

This question was asked in the thread about the T-28 crash regarding the picture of the P-51 taken during the final moments before it crashed, published in the link below.

Deadly crash at Reno air races*Pictures - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-201_162-10009462-4.html?tag=page;next)

Why is the pilot not visible?

[Spit161]

Why is the pilot not visible?

Most likely because the high G forces have made him slump forward (and out of sight).

[Green-dot]

Apparently not restrained in his seat by a shoulder harness . . . ?

Or he was pushed way into the seatback by high g-forces and therefore not visible from the canopy.

[Lonewolf_50]

Some interesting pics in the media show a trim tab on the elevators missing on the mishap aircraft. Tragic. :{

RIP to all concerned.

There was an semi-informative blog post (NOT MY WORDS) that piqued my interest. Given that it was posted on MSNBC news site, it will probably get a lot of traffic among the non-pilots out there.

Using evidence he gleaned from the pictures available to the public, the person posting has made a provisional conclusion ...

Plane in Reno crash had 'radical' changes to compete - US news - Life - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44569068/ns/us_news-life/)
(One of the points made in the article was that the aircraft had been modified (wingspan shortened) to tweak its performance for racing). The "comment" that caught my eye goes as follows.
DISCLAIMER: this is somebody's opinion, but it appears to be someone who knows a bit about flying.
This accident was caused by the failure of the left elevator trim tab. This exact same failure occurred to the P-51 Voodoo in the 1998 Reno race. That aircraft didn't roll inverted, but climbed up past 9,000 feet, where the pilot woke up.

Aircraft like the P-51 Galloping Ghost, require a great deal of nose down trim to offset the lift which tends to force the nose up at high speeds (450 mph in this case).

This trim setting places a great deal of stress on the trim tab and its hinges and mounting. If the tab should fail, the elevator will return to neutral, inducing an extremely violent pitch-up with zero warning. The associated g forces can incapacitate a pilot....

Notice that in some photos that Mr. Leeland is not visible in the photo. In other photos, he is clearly slumped against the instrument panel. If he can't see out, he can't know where the aircraft is pointed.
Leeland is obviously unconscious, due to GLOC.

Note also that the g loading was severe enough to overpower the hydraulic cylinder and extend the tail wheel. My understanding is that it requires g loading in excess of 9g to do that. So, this is strong evidence that Leeland was subjected to g forces of at least 9g, and very likely higher than that.

Any pilot, especially a 74-year old pilot, will GLOC under that loading.

He was unconscious immediately after the pitch up and the aircraft went where it did due to factors like torque, aileron and rudder trim.

I believe that the NTSB will rule this accident a result of a catastrophic mechanical failure, probably resulting from undetected fatigue of the trim tab hardware and/or mounting structure.
Your thoughts?

[ross_M]

You have better odds of being killed by a falling satellite than being killed at the Reno Air Races as a spectator.

That's tempting fate. There's one on the way! :E

[con-pilot]

That's tempting fate. There's one on the way!

Yes I know, that's why I've got me tinfoil hat on. :p

[fernytickles]

Mr. Leeland

If the guy's attention to detail is such that he cannot even get Jimmy's surname correct, that puts serious doubts about any conclusion he may come to......

Having said that, this conclusion is being reached by numerous other speculators as well.....

[FR8R H8R]

Con, you're quite the jack off all trades, eh?

T-28 pilot.

NTSB grad.

Internet message board commentator.

Covered in blood and flesh.

Keep it up kid, you make for some entertaining reading. :ok:

[fernytickles]

FR8R H8R,

As a relative newbie according to your joining date, you may not be aware that there are photos on pprune of several of the well-known posters on here, socializing with others. C-P may well be flattered at you referring to him as "kid", but a quick glance at the photos may clear that up..... :}

C-P - sorry - in one 24hr period I've flattered you and then shot you down again, "kid" - maybe that should be your new nickname? :ok:

[con-pilot]

-P - sorry - in one 24hr period I've flattered you and then shot you down again, "kid"

Wow, been a real long time since being called a 'kid'. :p


____________________________________________________________ _____

T-28 pilot.

NTSB grad.

Internet message board commentator.

Covered in blood and flesh.

Keep it up kid, you make for some entertaining reading

Very good, you can read. :p

Guilty to all of the above, except one. I have never been covered in blood and flesh, however, I've been at accident sites and have seen those that were. And that's all I'll say about it.

Time to move on.

[DX Wombat]

FR8R H8R := Your attitude makes it obvious that you have absolutely NO idea who you are insulting when you treat C-P like that. Just pray you never end up with a starring role in one of his NTSB reports. :*