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cyrilroy21
17th Sep 2011, 07:20
More people could have lost their lives in June, in a replay of the events that led to India’s worst air crash in a decade in Mangalore last year that killed 158 people.

On 25 June, an Air India Express flight (IX-208) from Mumbai landed deep into the table-top runway located on a mountain in Mangalore.

The captain decided to take off and land again after circling the airport, but the co-pilot overruled him in the nick of time and applied the brakes, bringing the aircraft to a stop at the edge of the runway. A 300-ft gorge stared below.

“It was actually a miracle that they survived,” said Mohan Ranganathan, an air safety expert and a member of the government-appointed Civil Aviation Safety Advisory Council. “If the runway was even slightly wet there was no way they could have stopped before the runway ended. But if they had tried to take off they would have certainly ended up like the last Mangalore crash.”

The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) is investigating the incident, said two government officials familiar with the matter, declining to be identified.

Air India Express, the low-fare arm of Air India Ltd, continues to run without a qualified chief of flight safety even a year and four months after the ill-fated crash in Mangalore.

Incidents such as the ones described earlier are increasing.

One of the government officials mentioned above said the landing of the IX-208 flight was of a magnitude of 2.9 G (acceleration due to gravity).

The maximum allowed for a Boeing 737 aircraft, like the one Air India Express was flying, is 2.1 G.

A 2.9 G magnitude means landing an aircraft weighing 70 tonnes would be like landing an aircraft of 200 tonnes. The impact could have broken the belly of the aircraft.

An Iberia A 340-600 made a similarly hard landing of 3 G magnitude in 2007 in Quito, Ecuador. Its landing gear sensors got damaged, and that prevented normal deceleration of the aircraft due to the failure of thrust reversers and spoilers. The aircraft was damaged beyond repair.

The Air India Express IX-208 was operated by commander Saravjit Singh Hothi, 62, and co-pilot Manish Chimurkar, 34.

Air India Express chief operating officer S. Chandrakumar confirmed the incident.

“After the Mangalore crash, the standard of co-pilot training has been improved; so the co-pilot (Chimurkar) was more aggressive in taking over control of the situation,” he said. “Hothi has been grounded.”

In the Air India Express flight that crashed in May 2010, the co-pilot could not overrule the commander’s decision to land. The co-pilot had wanted to go around and land again, according to investigation reports. The flight overshot the runway and crashed.

Ranganathan said Air India Express has not learnt lessons from the Mangalore crash and the latest incident shows poor training standards.

The incident was not the only one in recent months. On 28 August, another Air India Express flight that took off from Kochi suffered a tail strike because its commander R. Sobti chose a speed suitable for an aircraft 20,000 kg lighter than the one he was flying.

In a tail strike, the rear end of the aircraft hits the ground druing take-off.

“Instead of take-off weight he used zero-fuel weight to calculate take-off speed,” said the first government official mentioned earlier. “Worryingly, the investigation shows that the ex-Indian Air Force pilot had a tendency to have a tail strike. Why did Air India Express ignore this?”

Sobti, too, has been grounded, Chandrakumar said.

Till an audit is done, DGCA should ground Air India Express and let Air India run those flights, said Ranganathan and the second government official.

Air India is certified by International Air Transport Association’s IATA Operational Safety Audit (IOSA), the global benchmark for airline safety; but Air India Express, despite committing to go through an IOSA audit last year after the Mangalore crash, hasn’t done so.

The aviation regulator has, meanwhile, started a base inspection of the airline.

“The situation is so bad at the airline that you can’t imagine,” said the second government official.


Air India Express crash averted in Mangalore - Home - livemint.com (http://www.livemint.com/2011/09/16223918/Air-India-Express-crash-averte.html?atype=tp)

rdr
17th Sep 2011, 10:31
with due respect to your post Cyril, the trick to handle this sort of problem, is to avoid getting into it in the first place. Initial Descent, 15,000ft, Approach, Landing.
there is a weakness between 15,000ft to IAA, of recognition, situation awareness, and execution. this in turn, will always affect the final app & landing.
the handling on finals can be straightened out with 2 sim sessions and a competent instructor. its the thinking before that landing phase, which is totally dependant on what any pilot sees and experiances on the line during his years as an F/O. great job by the kid to stand, up, and on the brakes as well. but should he have done more, earlier ??

sunset_contrails_10
17th Sep 2011, 16:30
AMAZING!!!! Indian Aviation is clearly MUCH WORSE than i thought. BOTH pilots decision making skills are HORRIBLE.

First, the commanders decision to land five thousand feet down the runway.

Second, the first officers decision to prevent the go around and come within feet of going off the end.

If you could stop the aircraft before reaching the end, you DEFINITELY, with average pilot skills could have performed a safe Go Around, circle and do it right the next time.

Can't Indians do a simple touch and go??

Basic flying skills boys, basic flying skills.

Bye the way, I would have slapped the bleep out of the first officer for putting EVERYBODY at risk for touching the brake pedals.

littlejet
17th Sep 2011, 16:31
The question remans if they had deployed reversers, raised the speed brakes... Than no more rejected landing option...

IndAir967
17th Sep 2011, 19:00
Bye the way, I would have slapped the bleep out of the first officer for putting EVERYBODY at risk for touching the brake pedals.

Shows your poor standards/CRM. How can u come to an conclusion with out knowing in what exact configuration the aircraft was at the time the G/A was
being initialized by the captain ?? Switching from Reversers/Spoilers Down with
only a few thousand feet remaining is (might) have been an bad bad option.

Indians might not know touch and go.

You guys seem to be landing at the wrong airports.

ps. its by the way not bye the way.

sunset_contrails_10
18th Sep 2011, 01:09
If I determine, as Commander, that we have enough runway available to safely execute a rejected landing and the SECOND in command prevents this from happening, than he deserves the beating of his life after the aircraft is safely secured. He almost KILLED everyone.

NO second in Command should ever overrule a call for a reject or a call for a go around.

By the way, thank you for the for the simple spelling correction.

I'll say bye for now.

40Deg STH
18th Sep 2011, 02:58
Sunset,

As all previous posters said, if reverse is selected, game over. Your landing!:ugh:
If that was the case, well done to the FO:ok:

sunset_contrails_10
18th Sep 2011, 05:45
If that is the case then I agree with you all.

It is interesting that indians are assuming that the first officer was the one with the decision making skills and the commanders judgement is in question.

I am from a country that will initially side with the commander until proven otherwise, sort of innocent until proven guilty.

Are the indian commanders so weak that their decisions are questioned and the first officers decisions are assumed to be correct?

Mind you this story comes from a newspaper's account.

IndAir967
18th Sep 2011, 07:36
Sunset,
If you really want to criticize, one can find a thousand excuses to do so.
I am not dissaproving the commanders authority but even he is an human
and could make wrong decisions and thats why we have an extra pair of
eyes sitting in the cockpit to assist the commander in decision making.

At the end of this incident, Everybody walked out safe and the copilot had
intervened and prevented the captain in initializing an GA.

Whether it was the right move to make or not is for AI internal enquiry to
make an decision.

On a personal note:- The guy took over controls and was able to stop the
aircraft within the LDA without any tire bursts or over run. Seems convincing enough to me as the right decision to have been made.

A copilot when he takes over controls from an captain knows he s putting his
career at risk. That guy had the balls to do exactly that.

alouette3
18th Sep 2011, 12:30
Sunset,
You are amazing! In one accident the F/O was castigated and dragged over the hot coals for not doing anything and now, in this near-accident scenario ,you are accusing the F/O for doing too much???!! Seems to me you want to keep the cake and eat it too.
Your borderline racist comments and the fact that you hail from a country which has a racist history and ,apparently, a culture where you are guilty until proven otherwise, probably is a factor in your quick and holier-than-thou assertions.
NO second in Command should ever overrule a call for a reject or a call for a go around

Note to self don't book an airline seat on a German airline.

Alt3

vfenext
18th Sep 2011, 17:23
Aloutte3 I totally agree. Sunset, take a CRM course you might save some lives some day. Including your own! Shocking comments in this day and age from someone in a responsible position.

captjns
19th Sep 2011, 02:51
I hope the tapes are released... not to drag the captain or the F/O through the mud but to learn from events leading up to the end result that took place. Many ask... how can future incidents be avoided??? by the experiences of others.

flyjet787
19th Sep 2011, 03:27
I wonder how this incident came to light in the first place. Was it a voluntary report filed by the crew members or did any airport officials report it to IX or did IX extract the data from the CVC/DFDR after a random check?