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V2-OMG!
17th Sep 2011, 02:04
If I didn't get so busy with work, I was planning on attending.

The RAR are a much-anticipated event. One of the premier air events in North America.

This is a real tragedy.

Plane crashes into crowd at Reno air races - US news - Life - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44556695/ns/us_news-life/?gt1=43001)

Radar66
17th Sep 2011, 07:29
For those that are in the know 'Biggles' is fine. :ok:

Posted at 8.43 GMT... after Wombat's post!

DX Wombat
17th Sep 2011, 07:36
Very sad.

Tankertrashnav
17th Sep 2011, 09:10
Thread building up on the Private Flying forum

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/463880-big-crash-reno.html

Be warned, contains the usual ill-informed speculation from armchair experts, plus the odd crass remark.

Very sad event - my condolences to all concerned.

Katamarino
17th Sep 2011, 10:16
Be warned, contains the usual ill-informed speculation from armchair experts, plus the odd crass remark.

Speculation shouldn't have any place in a thread like this. Ever.

Oh grow up.

Spit161
17th Sep 2011, 10:24
Very, very sad and a bad day for Reno.


Jake.

Slasher
17th Sep 2011, 12:04
Shit. Sad bloody day alright. :(

Thanks for that link TTN. That thread had a vid of the prang.
Why the sudden pull up nobody knows as yet (not a cue for
any speculation - leave that for the other thread).

arcniz
17th Sep 2011, 12:13
Tragic! Sometimes the odds just run out. Condolences to all affected.

Tankertrashnav
17th Sep 2011, 16:13
Katamarino

My reference to crass remarks was prompted by a highly offensive post on the other thread to the effect that as the pilot was a wealthy Florida estate agent (or somesuch) what did you expect. I see that that post has been removed, either by the mods, or by the poster, stung by the reaction his remarks got. Either way I am pleased to see it has gone.

I stand by my remarks on ill-informed speculation. The closest thing to a P51 I have flown is a Cessna 172, hence I have refrained from venturing an opinion on this accident. I suspect that some of those speculating about the causes are even less qualified than I am.

con-pilot
17th Sep 2011, 16:36
Why the sudden pull up nobody knows as yet

I do know that from knowing pilots that do race at Reno that when any pilot encounters a problem, mechanical or other wise, SOP is to pull up and then leave race course/circuit.

So the pull up could have been intentional. I'll make no other speculation on the cause of the accident.


Now, it is sad to note that some politicians are already jumping on the band wagon to either close the Reno Air Races or move the spectators so far away that could barely see the aircraft.

It is tragic that three people plus the pilot were killed, but we need to be realistic here. Since 1964 there has not been anyone but a very few pilots have been killed, until now. So for forty seven (47) years no spectator has been injured or killed out of the million and millions of spectators that have attended the Reno Air Races. I cannot think of any higher odds of someone getting killed than those. Something like a billion to one chance?

Tankertrashnav
17th Sep 2011, 17:41
Agreed Con - like a lot of these events, the most dangerous part is the drive to and from.

WhatsaLizad?
17th Sep 2011, 17:46
I believe the LA Times has a very high quality still pic showing the entire aircraft along with an obvious missing elevator tab as it was heading down.

RIP

(edited, pics and discussion about this in other thread)

sitigeltfel
17th Sep 2011, 18:26
I believe the LA Times has a very high quality still pic showing the entire aircraft along with an obvious missing elevator tab as it was heading down.


http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/sitigeltfel/GallopingGhost.jpg

pigboat
17th Sep 2011, 22:28
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/310879_2010331737142_1209187944_31786524_175417337_n.jpg
The poor man was done from this point on. :(

Lyman
17th Sep 2011, 23:24
con-pilot

SOP indeed, leave the circuit immediately, a climb if possible. On top of that, this gent may have been using the tab for a bit of NU cheat, needing a constant push to stay low to the ground, a good and safe practice. However, if the Tab departs, the A/C will drop like a stone, and he may have pulled way too much to stay alive. In the ensuing ascent, he may have gone unconscious, or even broken his neck in the g's that followed. The roll inverted looked gentle, but was obviously not the thing to do, so my guess is he was out like a light from the loss of tab on.

I was present for Steve Hinton's prang; this kind of flying is perhaps the most dangerous kind there is. Wicked exciting, and the noise is exquisite. So, I think Reno stays on the schedule; all present were grown up and knew the risk, (one hopes and prays there were no children among the dead/injured).

take care

BombayDuck
18th Sep 2011, 00:55
A similar incident, close on the heels... :sad:

Pilot killed at Airshow crash (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/09/17/west-virginia-air-show-crash.html)

The pilot of a post-World War II plane died Saturday after crashing into a runway and bursting into flames, the second deadly air show crash in 24 hours.

The West Virginia Air National Guard said that no spectators were injured and that the crash site was far away from anyone at the show. Still, air show officials posted a notice on their website encouraging those who witnessed the crash to seek support if they felt viewing it had been traumatic.

The crash occurred a day after a stunt pilot crashed at a Nevada air show Friday, killing nine.

Howard Hughes
18th Sep 2011, 04:27
Con I think the quote was:
post-World War II
I must be psychic, or is that psycho? I know what Con is going to say next...

con-pilot
18th Sep 2011, 04:32
Duck, one more time the media gets it wrong.

The T-28 is not a World War Two aircraft.

SASless
18th Sep 2011, 13:02
The pilot of a post-World War II plane died Saturday after crashing into a runway and bursting into flames.

Is it me....or should we ask what happened to the airplane?

Lyman
18th Sep 2011, 13:09
Think that buno was 1958 model.

Cacophonix
18th Sep 2011, 14:01
More sense on JB than elsewhere!

Those who are faulting the pilot here should consider that was an “air race”. The pilots are there to push to the limit. Perhaps a fine line was exceeded but we don’t know that for sure.

Perhaps a more pertinent question would be how spectators can be made safer. Aircraft have crashed at Reno before and will do again. Unfortunately that fact goes with the territory.

Caco

Lyman
18th Sep 2011, 14:06
What about the word "UNLIMITED" is so difficult for the PRESS to "get"?

Just bring PISTONS.

Spit161
18th Sep 2011, 14:06
Caco - Is that the RN Historic Flights Sea Fury?

cheers,
Jake.

Cacophonix
18th Sep 2011, 14:14
Reno

http://www.military-aircraft.org.uk/other-fighter-planes/hawker-sea-fury-fb-11-fighter.jpg

Edited to day that the image is not from Reno, but has "PISTONS"!

Caco

er340790
18th Sep 2011, 16:14
It is the only air race of its kind in the United States. Planes at the yearly event fly wingtip-to-wingtip as low as 15 metres off the ground at speeds sometimes surpassing 8000 km/h. Pilots follow an oval path around pylons, with distances and speeds depending on the class of aircraft.

Wow....... JUST WOW! :cool:

green granite
19th Sep 2011, 07:06
From an article in this mornings Torygraph:

"Reno Air Race crash: plane modified for increased speed

The 65-year-old "Galloping Ghost" underwent years of overhauls that took a full 10 feet off its wingspan. The ailerons - the back edges of the main wings used to control balance - were also cut from about 60 inches to 32 inches.

Pilot Jimmy Leeward had said the changes made the P-51 Mustang faster and more maneuverable, but in the months before Friday's crash even he wasn't certain exactly how it would perform.

"I know it'll do the speed," he said in a podcast uploaded to YouTube in June. "The systems aren't proven yet. We think they're going to be OK."

In the podcast, Leeward called some of the changes "extremely radical," compared some to systems on the space shuttle and explained that he had increased the plane's speed capabilities to be more like those of a modern fighter jet.

Full article: Reno Air Race crash: plane modified for increased speed - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8772709/Reno-Air-Race-crash-plane-modified-for-increased-speed.html)

mickjoebill
19th Sep 2011, 07:08
Is it rare in such circumstances that there is no fire at time of impact?

How much fuel would have been carried?


Mickjoebill

westhawk
19th Sep 2011, 08:32
How much fuel would have been carried?

At a maximum power burn rate of about 400 gph, a 6 lap heat race might require about 40 gallons. Add in some reserves and there might have been at least 60-80 gallons left by the time of the crash. Perhaps more, but I'd think that would be the least considering there were 5 laps left to run.

The only explanation I can imagine for why the fuel didn't flash would be that it vaporized and dissipated without finding both an ignition source and a combustible mixture ratio of air.

Better explanation anyone?

dead_pan
19th Sep 2011, 10:07
Terrible tragedy. As some have already noted lets hope level heads prevail and the Reno races continue.


Planes at the yearly event fly wingtip-to-wingtip as low as 15 metres off the ground at speeds sometimes surpassing 8000 km/h


I think the journalist must have got confused with pod racing in The Phantom Menace.

Lonewolf_50
19th Sep 2011, 14:31
Planes at the yearly event fly wingtip-to-wingtip as low as 15 metres off the ground at speeds sometimes surpassing 8000 km/h
Who needs an F-35? Get a few more Galloping Ghosts (see fuel consumption post a few up) and equip the USAF with its new fighters. Cost savings, performance, and at those speeds, it can outrun bullets! :E

Put another way ... FFS, don't journalists and editors bother proof reading anymore? That is a core skill of their alleged profession ... :mad:

Tankertrashnav
19th Sep 2011, 14:33
alleged is the operative word, Lonewolf.

Professions have rigorous standards of entry, together with regulatory bodies which ensure that their members adhere to high standards and eject those who do not.

Journalist only have to show the ability to rehash someone else's rubbish, with scant attention paid to English grammar and spelling, or inconvenient things like the facts which would otherwise get in the way of a good story.

candoo
21st Sep 2011, 21:19
Just got back from Reno, although not at the races when the tragic accident happened several colleagues were (they are safe and sound).

The hotel I was staying in (Grand Sierra Resort) was understandably quiet on the Friday and Saturday nights as a good proportion of the guests were involved in the races one way or another.

We were due to attend on the Saturday and Sunday.

A very sad weekend although I hope the event lives on.

JEM60
22nd Sep 2011, 07:03
It is not that unusual to have no impact fire. I was unlucky enough to witness[among the 12 crashes I have seen] the RNHF Firefly at Duxford, no fire, and the T.34C Turbo Mentor at Mildenhall, also no fire.