Jetstar NZ Pilots vote for Industrial Action

[ACT Crusader]

Watch John Key work his magic if it does get to boiling point....

[WB Bach]

Heard today that Jetstar pilots on the Jetstar NZ contract have voted for "Industrial Action". Rugby WC and all!

I guess the only surprise is, that it has taken so long to get to this. How pilots working at the same base, doing the same job, flying the same routes, on the same aircraft work on poorer terms and conditions as their colleagues is beyond me.

Earning 60% of the salary of their colleagues at the same base, why has it taken so long to reach strike action? Am I missing something here? :confused:

[waren9]

WB

Its the law. Cant just strike when you want to.

[Wheeliebin]

Nothing outside the law. NZALPA involved, I'm sure that any actions would be legal.

[27/09]

Wheeliebin

I'm sure it's all within the law. What Warren9 is referring to is Earning 60% of the salary of their colleagues at the same base, why has it taken so long to reach strike action? Am I missing something here?

Strike action can only take place after contract negotiations have broken down, the contract will only be renegotiated every two or three years. Taking strike action just because you don't like the terms is not within the law, you have to wait for negotiations to stake a claim and if that claim is rejected by the company then you can take strike action.

[mattyj]

What..? Why? They (ALPA) just renegotiated the pay scheme. I thought the pilots were quietly pleased with the increase! What happened?

[Oxidant]

What..? Why? They (ALPA) just renegotiated the pay scheme

No they have not. It is still to be sorted........................:ugh:

[WB Bach]

Industrial action is as a result of no progress by the company in negotiations. Haven't even got to first base yet, with no "Bargaining Agreement" being reached so as to even commence negotiations.

Jetstar Capt salary = Jetstar EBA FO salary, given the exchange rate. And they fly together! Not good. No wonder they can't get J* NZ Captains!

I could stand corrected, but heard that the Jestar cadets who were originally to be NZ based (until NZ CAA said no way) are now on the Oz EBA AND working in Oz ???

[MIke SieRRa]

I could stand corrected, but heard that the Jestar cadets who were originally to be NZ based (until NZ CAA said no way) are now on the Oz EBA AND working in Oz ???

Yes that is correct.

[WB Bach]

So, the cadets get on the EBA along with seniority, able to work and move about in Oz. Good luck to them, and well done to the EBA guys who negotiated this. It has to be better to have all in Oz under the same umbrella - much preferred to the "contracts".

So why has Jetstar managed to make good progress, and even created good will in this area and, I believe, in part time positions in Oz, but neglected Jetstar NZ?

Is it fair to suggest that those on Individual contracts (NZ) just don't carry the same clout when it comes to negotiating?? Hence, a good reason to avoid a "contract" position.

Oh yes, I must share this little gem! I'm told the company recognise that the Jetstar NZ base salary is poor and would like to address it. That must make crews feel much better.:). Hello! Is there something stopping them addressing it, or is it just good "lip service" ????? :confused:

[toolish]

If you didn't accept the contract it would have increased:ugh::ugh:
We are unable to help you, you are not covered by FWA.
Do I want you on our seniority list and on the EBA, YES.
But YOU need to fight and until that time it is "lip service"

[WB Bach]

You are spot on toolish. Lots of angry pilots in NZ who are ready to fight. No FWA, but NZ Labour and Industry, Industrial Court are very good and will be of help.

People signed contracts for many and varied reasons. Best to work on what can be changed, and accept mistakes of the past as lessons learnt.

[sfoxs]

J* union in aus could go to court to argue that a VH aircraft working in NZ does come under FWA...........that should help:)

[Wheeliebin]

These VH aircraft not operating only in NZ on scam salaries. Jetstar NZ half pay pilots also operating the following city pairs CNS-AKL, SYD-Nadi, SYD-AKL, SYD-CHC, MEL-AKL, MEL-CHC as well as BNE and OOL to CHC.

[Ichiban]

The Jetstar Cadets have also had their debt for the cost of training removed. Instead, they are bonded for three years.

The Australian G/A pilots that accepted positions with Jetstar NZ are stuck there with no mechanism to return.

The Cadets based in MEL, SYD, & OOL/BNE will probably keep those bases with their EBA seniority numbers...

[Wheeliebin]

I enjoy my job, I try and do it well.

I would like to see the company I work for do well.

I love my Rugby even if my team got done by Ireland.

The thought of Industrial Action during the World Cup will not be comfortable.

But when my FO is taking home more than me, and the company is slowing the process of addressing the situation, then I believe the action is justified.:ugh:

[toolish]

Good on ya Wheeliebin:D
If You guys do industrial action and everyone participates as they should let us know and I will develop an URTI at 2 hrs before departure to AKL or CHC.
I am a little different to you because I don't care if J* does well or not.

[Condition lever]

Wheeliebin,

Sorry, I am a bit confused....
Did you take a direct entry command in NZ, and now you are not happy with the conditions???

[Artificial Horizon]

Not quite that simple I am afraid. Here are some things I was told on joining;

- this will be a totally separate company, with separate AOC, ACFT, Training, admin etc. (this was given up on when they found out how long it would take to get an AOC)
- It is not EBA as being that it will be a separate company you will NEVER fly with EBA pilots (this lasted 6 weeks)
- The money isn't the best but you are getting a great lifestyle and here are the fixed roster patterns we will be using to prove how much time off you will have (never actually achieved one of these rosters due to 'operational' reasons)

The list could go on and on, most of us have been waiting for the 'promised' improvements that were meant to be in from day 1 of the operation 2.5 years ago, you can only get fobbed off so long before people start to snap.

[bigbrother]

fellas, the pilot shortage HAS arrived. I know it from current personal experience with 6 interview sheduled or completed in the last 2 months. If wages and conditions aren't what your after, let them know and take another bus. I'm amazed how quickly it has turned around but turned around it has. All that needs to happen now is for the pinch to reach the rarified air of managment, and aircraft start getting parked up against a fence, and watch the salaries improve. It is happening already and I am witness to it.:ok:

[Wheeliebin]

Yes, you are confused. I did not take direct entry command in NZ. Started as FO, worked hard. Could have started on EBA, taken LWOP and got command in NZ, before one day returning - not now.

Mistake I made was that when the most senior management looked me in the eye and said the salary situation would soon be addressed, I believed them.

For over two years now, we've heard the same, same old tune. It goes like this: "believe us, we know the problem we will address it"; "we are listening to your concerns, it will soon change".

Meeting, after meeting, after meeting. Assurances, after assurances.

And the reality is that it is all lies and lip service.

Used and abused, we prostitute our services, only difference being those in the cross just take home a lot more cash.

[waren9]

Making career decisions and signing up to unwritten promises?

FFS.

[bigbrother]

A very familiar tune, check out Fragrant Harbour on Hong Kong Express/Airlines. SAME SAME. Look at the pilots leaving there en-mass. I hear leaving to Emirites and others in the sand pit.

[ZK-NSN]

Dont get me wrong here. I think Jetstar is the worst thing to happen in aviation since the advent of the shoe-bomb and would love to see the guys stick it to them...... However there is a part of me that thinks you signed a cr@p contract that sold yourselves and your profession short, thus limiting my sympathy.
But I guess it could be worse, you could be working for Eagle?:E

Sounds like its going to be a busy 6 months for the NZALPA lawyers.

[Oakape]

Start-up's always pay low in the begining, though whether or not JetStar NZ can be called a start-up is debatable.

Virgin Blue (as it was known back then for the smart a#%es) B737 captains started on just over $113,000 base salary & now look at it. From another thread -

737 Command Salary 2002 was $113,300 plus retention of $15000 plus a 2% Bonus = $130,566

Current EBA which is about to expire has a minimum 737 Command salary of $190,889.
From personal experience I know that $250,000 is achievable with overtime/day off payments.



You really can't blame someone from signing up on a low salary with management promises that it will improve as the operation beds down & becomes profitable. Unfortunately what management do from that point on is well out side the pilot group's control.

[WB Bach]

And J*NZ still on $A100,000. It really does beg belief :confused:

[blacksmoke]

I thought most skippers were pulling in around 185k+. Yes its NZ dollars, but still better than Jitconnect and Pacbro etc who are also payed in NZ dollars.

[Fruet Mich]

Really, man how much does a Jitconnect Capt earn?

[bigbrother]

is it true a Jetstar Airways captun is making $185KNZ

[Artificial Horizon]

Not far off:

130,000 basic
2,000 - 3000 per month for overtime (average) = 30,000
20,000 per year retention bonus.

= 180,000 ish per year, this is if everything works out o.k. though and you work overtime every month (not a problem at the moment) and they continue to pay the FULL retention bonus (which they have so far). Problem is that you can't rely on this continuing.

[Fruet Mich]

AH, how many hours overtime is that to obtain an average 2000-3000 incentive per month?

[Artificial Horizon]

15 hours (2,000) - 25 hours (3,000). Currently $120 per hour over 65 hours for the month. Captains seem to be sat around the 85 block hour mark on average, I have seen 80 hour months and 100 hour months though.

This overtime payment shortly to go up to $185 per month.

[standard]

To wheeliebin.

So let me get this right, you took a command to look after yourself, undercut your mates who were probably telling you how **** the deal was that you were about to sign, but you still looked after number 1 and now you don't like it????

typical!

"you make your bed, you sleep in it" come to mind?, i hope you can improve your t and c's but at the the end of the day the only person to blame for your current conditions is you.

[Fruet Mich]

Jetconnect is currently on their B737-300 domestic contract which expires this month. So still on a similar contract to AirNZ domestic B737 contract.

Current rates, $137,000 base. Retention guaranteed $22500. Incentive $180hr over 65 hours in the month, cash allowances currently averaging $1600 month.

So based on a 126 seat aircraft flying domestic B737-300, current Jetconnect captains doing 65 hours per month will earn just under $180,000. if a jetconnect captain is doing 80 hrs per month he/she will earn $201,000.

So considering that Jetconnect is on a crap contract and considering it is still on their old B737-300 domestic contract, it's not too bad. I would assume Jetconnect will be going for an amendment pay increase on their new contract to reflect Tasman only flying and a shift to a 168 Seat B737-800 fleet.

Jetstar, Jetconnect and PAC Blue need to lift their games.

[Wheeliebin]

Oh, Standard. You could not possibly be more wrong.

After many years in Europe, I was only offered the NZ position. I was not offered, nor did I get DEC. I thought NZ would be good for my family - and other than dealing with earthquakes and a damaged house it is.

There has been many, many broken promises made by senior management, hence the unprecedented anger from all J* NZ.

I started under a huge degree of ignorance of the EBA / contracts / J* exploitation of labour setup. I am guilty of being ignorant, naive, whatever you want to call it. Guilty of undercutting mates never !!!!! Some older Impulse guys will remember me being taken off a ground school when I queried being upgraded over others more senior. I lost my job over sticking up for mates, standing up for seniority and opposing pilot providing company contracts. Before slipping, away I had the last laugh in court. I stand up against injustice, and stand up for my mates.

You could not be more wrong Mr Standard.

[standard]

The Same impulse guys who set the lowest benchmark in aviation for jet jobs?

Good on you for standing up for yourself, but my comment still stands, you did not have to take it. I hope for all of aviations sake and your own you can get a better deal.

[Condition lever]

Standard - you stated in Aug 2004:
it may appear to be unfair, but business is business and when Qantas flight attendants are the highest payed in the world and the company can see ways to cost save they will.... business is business and what may be immoral will help push the share price up.... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Ever thought you may be a bit of a hypocrite????
Clearly you were happy for the UK operation to undercut the Aus FA T&C

No doubt you we one of the guys applying for an AO position to get a command out of seniority....

Perhaps you should look there at the begining of the QF T&C being eroded.

[standard]

Gee CL you dug deep to find that, well I guess I should retract my statement.

As you have correctly pointed out my opinion on how the cabin and flight deck are crewed differ significantly.

AO was fully endorsed by AIPA and was at the detrement of no mainline crew.

No I did not take a command, but fully endorse anyone who did.

[haughtney1]

Given the NZ dollar is now on it's ways south towards 70-72 US cents (and back eventually to about 55) I'm wondering how many here who initially felt that what Jet* put on the table was moderately competitive for DEC's recently.....are now thinking?
Good on all those who stand up, as Corp Jones is apt to say "they don't like it up em" :ok:

[Artificial Horizon]

But surely you only give a t*ss what the NZD is compared to the USD if you are thinking of moving on overseas again. Jetstar NZ is not a contract to make money from, is is currently and will remain the best DEC jet job available in New Zealand. Living in New Zealand and not China, Middle East is personally worth more to me than all these contracts / middle eastern carriers can offer.

But hey, each to their own, all I can say is that screwing a better deal out of Jetstar is good for everyone in the end.

[TeHoroto]

I think you mean the only DEC jet job available in NZ.

[haughtney1]

But surely you only give a t*ss what the NZD is compared to the USD if you are thinking of moving on overseas again. Jetstar NZ is not a contract to make money from, is is currently and will remain the best DEC jet job available in New Zealand. Living in New Zealand and not China, Middle East is personally worth more to me than all these contracts / middle eastern carriers can offer

No argument AH, but I think you missed my point, i.e. For those of us currently offshore....is it still a potentially attractive option?
A quick straw poll of some the kiwis I fly with here in the sandpit suggests that for many of them it's not...which when I got the email asking for expressions of interest for DEC positions was the idea?
I hope your efforts bear fruit, but I still think my time in NZ will be down time between contracts, as I don't think with 2 kids, a mortgage, and a couple of properties spread around the world....I could afford to do otherwise :oh:

[propaganda]

Quite right too. It should all come down to personal preferences. If your holly grail is $$$$ then avoid NZ and go to China or the ME. However, if you want lifestyle then that's a different matter. I personally would not touch the ME with soaring temps in the summer and the feeling you are a paid guest, or China where the sky is obscured by pollution, and many of the locals are anti -Westerners. In NZ you can live a comfortable, not extravegant lifestyle show affection to your lady on the beach if you wish and have a beer afterwards.. Personal choices....Final comment for all those expat Kiwi's - when your pot of gold is full you'll all come back home.

[atiuta]

Couldn't agree with you more Propoganda.....but I guess that wasn't really you that had an interest in the ME a few years back?

Most of us will change career direction so I can understand your sentiment to the ME now, but try and keep your advice truthful...oh I forgot, that's not your thing.

[propaganda]

atiuta, Not sure what your angle is here. My comments were regarding making personal choices. I made my choice - you obviously made yours to live the EK dream in DXB.
I accept the JQ NZ deal is not good - but the truth of the matter is JQ NZ has provided great opportunities for young pilots in NZ to fly an Airbus many of whom had no previous commercial experience. Its all about lifestyle and personal choices. Nobody is forcing anyone to accept a job.

[PhoenixNZ]

I agree Prop, its all about the lifestyle.

The fact is that the JQ cadets program is still nearly double the income you would get
doing GA. You also gain experience on a type that is used all around the world giving you the flexibility to move should you so choose to.

Its not perfect by any means but its defintely one of the best options out there for new pilots.

[bigbrother]

Sorry to digress, but can anyone tell me, do you get paid whilst under training with JS NZ?

[waren9]

All very well PNZ, but what you (and people like you) havent considered beyond the next paycheck is that an FO wage flying A320's used to be able to support a family and a mortgage. It cant now.

At what point in your career would you like to be able to do that? When you have a command? I'll tell ya mate the next global financial cock up is just around the corner and there will be no such thing as a pilot shortage for a very long time. NZ or overseas. I'll tell ya that for free.

[bigbrother]

I feel you pain there Waren9. I'm a 4000hr wanna be(1:paid 2:fly a new jet 3:not have a list of MEL's to write off before I even leave the ground and 4:get paid more than a Plumber for the 1st tme in my miserable aviation career). Too much to ask for?

[Artificial Horizon]

Waren9,

Totally agree that the FO side of things is a disgrace, this is certainly VERY high on our priority list for negotiations with the company. I am not certain that the cadet scheme will continue in the current form. I can't see what advantage it now gives the company. Australian based with a bond and aussie dollars doesn't really justify the cost of extra sims / training etc. This is a good thing overall. The feeling among Jetstar NZ pilots is one of frustration, we are looking to try and gain an improvement in the contract not just for current employees but also for all other pilots in the country.

We are just trying to get the company to realise that the current recruitment problems could be overcome overnight by putting a 'solid' collective contract on the table.

A healthy Jetstar NZ that provides a reasonable option to pilots in New Zealand who for whatever reason can't / don't want to work for Air New Zealand can only be a good thing.

[PhoenixNZ]

All very well PNZ, but what you (and people like you) havent considered beyond the next paycheck is that an FO wage flying A320's used to be able to support a family and a mortgage. It cant now.

Its certainly not something I've ignored but there has to be a balance between short term and long term. In the long term JQ isn't the best option in the world I know. The problem with long term is no one knows EXACTLY how things will play out.

With that in mind its not a bad thing to take what is the best opportunity for the foreseeable future and then re-evaluate a few years down the track and see at that point what is best suited for you.

other airlines will be at their knees with your zero m/e cm

I can think of at least three airlines who will take on pilots who have good hours without TT Command time. Mostly in the sandpit but thats the choice you have to make.

[bigbrother]

Is there an increase in pay over say 65 hours and what sort of hours are the crew doing ? Does this provide for a better 'real world' pay

[Yousef Breckenheimer]

I have never understood why outfits like Jetstar don't pay more than the Links in NZ. They (Jetstar) would empty the ranks of Air NS and MC. Lots of experience there.

[standard]

Sounds like industrial action is on for the kiwi pilots... Any rumors to back this up?

Planned action?

[Ollie Onion]

Pilots have been notified that NZALPA will be commencing industrial action!
Timing of the action and the details of the action have yet to be announced.

With numerous FWA lawsuits, lot's of resignations and now this I am starting to think that Jetstar are not great employers!!

[nitpicker330]

Nah really??? :}

It took you this long to work that out??:D

[WB Bach]

"Jetstar are not great employers" - now there's an understatement!

You can't tell a pilot group that, you are very much aware the contract needs improving - then offer a 3% increase on to the base of three years ago. Official CPI is 8.3% over the same period! So we 'give you a net loss of earnings'. That's fair and reasonable!!

The senior management have treated the pilot group with contempt, and understandably have 'lost' them completely - they know that, but don't care.

What they may not know, is the middle management guys are in total support of the pilot group, and they too, are disillusioned with the senior goons in Melbourne. They regurgitate the company line, while 100% behind the rank and file line pilots.

Great business model. Their own workforce hate them. The average Kiwi hates them, but WILL use them INITIALLY to save a dollar - until they get a bad experience and realise: you get what you pay for.

An obsession with cutting costs, has to be balanced against it's effect on revenue. There are way too may examples to list here, of where the loss in revenue exceeds the cost saving. (Economics 101 stuff). Jetstar just don't get that. Or more relevant to the pilots' claim: one cost saving (lower the pilots wage cost) creates other costs that exceed the saving (i.e. the cost of having EBA pilots in hotels in AKL and CHC).

The goons in MEL by their own admission don't have anyone who looks at hotel costs in NZ (Oh there's a cost saving!). So, lets say we have just 2 pilots in AKL and 2 in CHC (usually more, I know). Thats $500 x 4 x 365 = $730,000. Given say 60 pilots in NZ, that could be an average of $12000 per pilot wage rise that would attract more pilots, avoid the hotels, avoid the use of pilots positioning when they could be operating. Not to mention reducing WDO payments, improving moral etc etc. The MEL philosophy is we have made cost savings by paying NZ pilots as little as we have to, and that's that. Again, they just don't get it!

So, cut costs on pilots! That will increase profit - like hell it will!

Great place to work? No!

[Wheeliebin]

Be careful WB Bach. You are using way too much logic!

Looking at reducing costs AND increasing revenue at the same time? Should be left to Mr. Borghetti and Virgin :-)

We should keep it simple for our guys:

Virgin: proactive; Jetstar: reactive.

Virgin: look after their staff, good moral; Jetstar: use their staff, no moral.

But hang on! Jetstar has the best political 'spin' in the industry. E.g. "Total engagement" is sky rocketing!!!! Our staff just love us to death:ok:

[Gate_15L]

Virgin: proactive; Jetstar: reactive.

Virgin: look after their staff, good moral; Jetstar: use their staff, no moral.

You obviously haven't heard the grumblings and attempted negotiations occurring from the Virgin Aust (NZ) contingent then in their battle for a collective agreement....

[Wheeliebin]

Fair point.

Was referring to Virgin Oz.

Understand what it's like to be the poor relation in NZ getting the B scale salary. Of course we don't realise that the cost of living is so, so, much cheaper in NZ:rolleyes:. They've obviously never bought fuel or a vehicle in NZ.

[Oxidant]

They've obviously never bought fuel or a vehicle in NZ.

Or a house.........
Or ANYTHING else for that matter. :mad:

[pakeha-boy]

Quote propaganda....."Personal choices....Final comment for all those expat Kiwi's - when your pot of gold is full you'll all come back home"


well mate...you are correct,and as Haughtney1 said.....sort of difficult when you bugger offshore to become a kiwi-expat-pilot.........personal choices for sure...

whats "choice" is was why I left..nobody to blame but me.....always felt I was flying like I was "whoreing" myself to the industry...........this thread and threads relating to kiwi aviation and it,s Industrial issues have been hashed and pounded before....and will be again....we have a long history ......

but yeah mate.....I will come back home,either in a box,an urn.....or in my jandals,..looking for a tui and a pie


....for the Jetstar boys....all the best....

[CaptCloudbuster]

You guys shouldn't worry too much. Our collective CCEO expressed his new workplace relations philosophy In the SMH.

He is placing emphasis on providing a carrot not a stick!

Incentivising people for doing a good job is absolutely the way we have to go

Qantas to reward helpful attendants | smh.com.au (http://m.smh.com.au/business/qantas-to-reward-helpful-attendants-20120601-1zn20.html)

[pakeha-boy]

Captcloudbuster.........mate,for your sake(s),if you work for these blokes,I certainly hope thats what happens and.. thats what you get(itll be a first).......but ive been in unions,held union positions,fought against unions.........and reckon Ive had a few threaten my existense................no worries ,it is what it is..............but managment has and always will threaten your job....pilots will be happy when they decide to live for less ...not that there arent those that are happy with what they have(kudo,s to you)...but as a collective group,you will never get what you want...only what you negotiate,,,and only what you are prepared to do to get it......like I said mate...all the best......kia kaha

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Captcloudbuster,

Mate for your sake(s), if you work for these blokes, I certainly hope that’s what happens and that’s what you get (it’ll be a first).

I’ve been in unions, held union positions, fought against unions and reckon I’ve had a few threaten my existence, no worries, it is what it is; but management has and always will threaten your job.

Pilots will be happy when they decide to live for less (not that there aren’t those that are happy with what they have, kudos to you), but as a collective group you will never get what you want, only what you negotiate (and only what you are prepared to do to get it). Like I said mate, all the best.

kia kaha


:p;)

is this still too short to post??

[OneDotLow]

Well it was obviously not the New Zealand Writers Guild that pakeha-boy was working for! ;)

[hotnhigh]

Lookout, Stu's moved to NZ.