PDA

View Full Version : Motorway Bug Bears


GroundedSLF
14th Sep 2011, 15:53
Roadworks - this is code for putting 18 million traffic cones along a 30 mile section of motorway for 4 year, introducing a 50mph average speed restriction(enforced by cameras) for "safety", and then letting 2 blokes, 1 shovel and a wheelbarrow loose for 4 hours a day - the eventual outcome is the motorway is 1 lane wider than it was before.

Driving in the incorrect lane - no matter how many lanes a motorway has, why do most drivers stick to the outside 2, regardless of what speed they are doing?

Any others...

Skycop
14th Sep 2011, 16:22
Drivers who middle lane hog, tailgate unecessarily and have no idea about the "zip fastener" technique of spacing. Example:

Driver 1 is in lane 2, at about 70 mph overtaking a line of HGVs. Driver 2 tailgates him closely without bothering to use lane 3 to overtake.

Driver 1 pulls into lane 1 between HGVs, specifically to allow Driver 2 to pass. Instead, Driver 2 cruises along, mind in neutral. He makes no effort to pass Driver 1 and may even slow down slightly.

Driver 1 is now catching up with more HGVs in front and needs to overtake. Driver 2 is in his way. Signalling is no good because Driver 2 isn't looking. Driver 1 now has two options.

He either slows down to 55 mph to fit in behind the HGVs, which will disadvantage him considerably because Driver 2 now has a long line of vehicles behind him.

Or, Driver1 accelerates up the inside, indicates and pulls out in front of Driver 2, who is taken by surprise by the "under taker" and gets angry. So he tailgates....... :ugh:

Evanelpus
14th Sep 2011, 16:43
Middle lane hoggers for me as well.

They travel for miles in the middle lane because they have paid their road tax and want to save wear and tear on their tyres moving from lane to lane. I'm sure most of them are quite ignorant to the fact they are causing a problem and think that by doing 60 in the middle lane is the safest way for them to be on the motorway.

I'm sure if Plod wanted a new way of getting the numbers up, they would make a killing on this one.

SMT Member
14th Sep 2011, 16:51
Trucks, trucks, trucks, trucks, carvaneers, trucks, trucks and trucks again.

Al Fakhem
14th Sep 2011, 16:53
Driver 1 is going along at between 70 mph and 80 mph, leaves proper distance between himself and vehicle ahead.

Either of two things will happen:

If Driver 1 is on Lane 1 or 2, he will be overtaken by a vehicle which then slots in between Driver 1 and vehicle previously ahead, causing Driver 1 to fall back to maintain safe distance. Most likely, the new vehicle ahead will also slow down, causing further nuisance.

If Driver 1 is on Lane 2 or 3, someone will inevitably cut in front, again causing Driver 1 to fall back in order to maintain safe distance to vehicle ahead. And again, most likely vehicle that has just cut in will slow down.

Forkandles
14th Sep 2011, 17:18
Although no motorways, until you drive in Malta, you have no idea... :eek: Oh yeah Rome. That was pretty grim as well...

DX Wombat
14th Sep 2011, 17:36
carvaneers,What is one of those? :confused: Is it an eejit in a BMW/Audi/big Lexus/VW etc? Because they certainly practise their carving skills on the motorway. :*

Airborne Aircrew
14th Sep 2011, 17:41
Although no motorways, until you drive in Malta, you have no idea...

Try a roundabout in the US... :E

Rob Courtney
14th Sep 2011, 17:50
No matter how many lanes there are on a motorway all but one will be filled with wagons attempting to overtake one another by going 1mph faster.
Why can they be restricted to two lanes only:ugh:

Capetonian
14th Sep 2011, 18:40
The guy whom you pass because he's going much slower than you, but he takes it as a personal affront and passes you, then slows down in front of you so you have to pass him again to stick to your required speed. You can play this game from one side of the country to the other!

Drivers who need two lanes for a Renault Clio.
Drivers who drive on sidelights at night (to save electricity?)

ATNotts
14th Sep 2011, 18:49
Why is it that in the UK a small section of bridgeworks has to be preceeded by 3 miles of cones, and speed cameras enforcing a reduced speedlimit which serve to cause interminable congestion when, on the continent similar construction work generally requires 500m of cones, and a speed limit sign? Don't tell me, health and safety and the inevitable risk assessment!

Also, in my experience when approaching roadworks in UK the "usual suspects" (drivers of large german manufactured extensions to the driver's manhood, and white van man) have to thunder down the shortly to be closed lane, only to swerve in the in final 50yds or so creating even greater jams. Again in northern europe drivers seem to me in the main much more prepared to move over in good time.

Don't get me started on lane discipline! In my (mainly north european) experience only the Belgians come close to British drivers when it comes to middle lane hogging!

Could all this have something to do with the crazy situation in UK, where motorway driving doesn't form part of the driving test?

hellsbrink
14th Sep 2011, 19:01
Trucks, trucks, trucks, trucks, carvaneers, trucks, trucks and trucks again.

Don't knock the trucks, I was seriously grateful for them being there so I could do some serious slipstreaming to keep my speed up as I came to the slightest hill there was on the roads today.

Caravanners, however, are another issue. You never can quite tell what they are going to do next (and the worst ones tend to have Dutch plates).

Mr Chips
14th Sep 2011, 19:09
ATNotts to be fair, I have many times sat in a traffic jam because everyone has shuffled into the remaining lane some way before the roadworks - if we continued to use the soon-to-be-closed lane and gave way in turn at the cones, the traffic would probably flow faster!*








I have no scientific proof for this

ZH875
14th Sep 2011, 19:21
People that travel down the middle land doing 60-65mph then for no apparent reason apply their brakes, WHY?

ross_M
14th Sep 2011, 19:23
Although no motorways, until you drive in Malta, you have no idea... Oh yeah Rome. That was pretty grim as well...


Ha! Try India. Or even New Jersey for that matter. Real deathtrap is a roundabout in NJ! :eek:

Could all this have something to do with the crazy situation in UK, where motorway driving doesn't form part of the driving test?


No interstate driving on the test either for Americans. The fastest I drove on the test was at 40 mph.

jackieofalltrades
14th Sep 2011, 19:27
Mr Chips I have many times sat in a traffic jam because everyone has shuffled into the remaining lane some way before the roadworks - if we continued to use the soon-to-be-closed lane and gave way in turn at the cones, the traffic would probably flow faster!*

There were studies done a few years ago into traffic flow. It's actually very similar to the mechanics of liquids. It was shown that traffic merging in turn some distance from the lane closing would permit the traffic to flow quicker and smoother than cars travelling up towards the closed lane to the last metres and trying to push in.

Skycop That along with middle lane hoggers is my biggest hate when driving. It's a real total lack of consideration to any other vehicle on the road.

tezzer
14th Sep 2011, 19:29
Those who think that the 300 / 200 / 100 metre exit marker countdown boards for an exit actually mean I should now be in lane 3, lane 2, lane 1, and Off onto the slip road carving everyone else up in the process !

Mr Chips
14th Sep 2011, 20:29
Jackieofalltrades

I was half right!

McGoonagall
14th Sep 2011, 20:38
Middle lane nutters for sure but imagine it is raining, good visibility otherwise and it is dark. The muppets that put their fog lights on should be taken away and made to read the Daily Mail or something.

I can see you, I do not need to be half blinded by two bloody great red lights shining straight at me. Stop it, stop it now.

Skycop
14th Sep 2011, 21:01
People that travel down the middle land doing 60-65mph then for no apparent reason apply their brakes, WHY?

Because they have reached their terminal velocity. The driver probably looked at the speedometer for the first time in ten minutes and panicked. The more the roads are "dumbed down" with speed cameras the less able new drivers become. To actually reach 65 mph is frightening for some.

Another bugbear is the driver who is incapable or ignorant of the requirement to match existing traffic speeds when coming down the slip road to join the motorway.

They don't seem to understand that merely switching on their right indicators does not entitle them to join the lane!

Trying to get into lane 1 at 45 mph is very probably going to cause an issue, even (and especially) for HGV drivers at their restricted 56mph. I hold well back from these idiots because if you follow them you form the meat in the sandwich they are going to cause when they try to merge at too low a speed. I then accelerate to a more workable joining speed once I've created sufficient space ahead of my vehicle.

terrain safe
14th Sep 2011, 21:03
Couple of things.

I drive on a motorway with a caravan, generally stick to doing 58-60 MPH due to the limit being 60 for me, and in a strong wind that can be quite 'fun'. So I stay in lane 1 with the lorries and will only venture out to overtake them. Having driven with them my appreciation of how difficult it must be to drive at a constant speed is huge. Car drivers can be complete w*****s. They will see you as slow and just cut in front to try and make the exit so you have to slow down and loose that very important momentum. Really, really annoying. They will pull out in front of you despite that most modern cars can keep to the speed limit quite easily when towing, and in my experience they will do (except for the muppet last year on the M5 doing 30 MPH and looking like a scared rabbit in lane 1).

Regarding the comment about motorway driving not being in the test, what about rural areas such as the North of Scotland, the Isle of Wight etc? Where will they do their test? It cannot work although I agree it would be a good idea.

But idiots who only use the middle/outside lane need to be shot 'cos they are T***s.

SMT Member
14th Sep 2011, 21:56
Caravaneers/Carvanners, same sordid deal.

A lot of the posts on this thread are from our island bound mates in the Atlantic, where driving standards really are quite low, but then again so are the maximum allowed speeds. My dislike of caravanners and, especially, trucks comes from driving a lot on the Autobahn. It is really quite frightning when you're crusing along somewhat north of 200 kmh on an unrestriced stretch of the Autobahn, and some plonker towing his Knaus at 100 kmh pulls out to overtake a truck 200 meters in front of you. The culprits will always be non-Germans, quite often sporting either UK or NL plates.

But trucks that are, supposedly, all limited to the same speed (which is still above their legal limit) are by far the worst. What is the bloody point in overtaking another truck when the difference in speed is only 1or 2 kmh? They take many kilometers and minutes to complete the overtaking, yet if we assume they drive 500 km between stops they would have gained, at the most, around 5-10 km in distance or roughly 3-5 minutes in time - or around the same as it takes them to complete the manouver.

No, no, and no again - something needs to be done. My suggestion is pretty simple: Fit all trucks with distance keeping cruise control and make it impossible for any truck to go faster than the rest of the convoy. That technolog exists today, the distance holding bit is already build into the cruise control of my car. Can't be that difficult bolting a speed restrictor on.

C130 Techie
14th Sep 2011, 21:58
Middle lane nutters for sure but imagine it is raining, good visibility otherwise and it is dark. The muppets that put their fog lights on should be taken away and made to read the Daily Mail or something.

I can see you, I do not need to be half blinded by two bloody great red lights shining straight at me. Stop it, stop it now.

The UK winter is approaching. Be Afraid, at the first wisp of mist the fog lights will be on, many for the duration.

Parapunter
14th Sep 2011, 21:59
Until someone works out how to send a loaf of bread down a phone line, you might as well piss in the wind as moan pointlessly about trucks. They're like taxation; a fact of life.

racedo
14th Sep 2011, 22:05
Drivers who insist in going well under speedlimit is overtaking lane and staying there oblivious to the queue built up behind them.

stuckgear
14th Sep 2011, 22:21
Fit all trucks with distance keeping cruise control and make it impossible for any truck to go faster than the rest of the convoy.


And what happens when your convoy of trucks comes up behind a heavy load moving slowly.. then all your trucks back up and the nearside lane becomes a blockage and danger point for other traffic, merging and exiting the motorway.

try driving a 12.5 tonne truck and dealing with some of the poor driving. when you have done, you'll be surprised how your road discipline changes for heavier and slower vehicles, same with a m-bike, drive one and you'll suddenly have a lot more care for the m-bikers..

personally i drive at the upper limits available (no faster than 10% +4) and tend to keep away from other drivers as much as possible. :hmm:

ZH875
14th Sep 2011, 22:27
I also hate the proliferation of A road signs which state

"Think Bike"


Why not have a more correct version:

"Bikers - Think Cars"

I am fed up of being cut up by high power bikes just speeding their way to an accident.

Parapunter
14th Sep 2011, 22:41
Ask any copper & they'll tell you one of the commonest cause of accidents they see is SMIDSY. And that occurs at any speed in any state of sobriety at any level of driving experience.

YorkshireTyke
14th Sep 2011, 22:49
Drivers who drive on sidelights at night
........or in heavy rain. At least at night there is just a chance that - maybe - the lights will be seen before the car, but it in heavy rain the bulk of the car is ALWAYS seen before the sidelights ! Get your ****** headlights on, idiot.

The UK winter is approaching. Be Afraid, at the first wisp of mist the fog lights will be on, many for the duration.

The ONLY reason for rear fog lights is if one is the LAST car in a stationary, or stopping, tail-back, at all other times - OFF.

Wasn't / isn't there some law stating that lights, i.e. front fog lights, placed a certain distance low down, near the road, could only be used in cases of fog or falling snow ? In which case couldn't the same rules be applied and ENFORCED to rear fog lights ?

Carry0nLuggage
14th Sep 2011, 22:54
If there are no motorways in parts of the country to test drivers on there isn't really a requirement to drive on them so I don't buy that arguement against not having a motorway section in the driving test.

Driver 1 is in lane one on a busy motorway, coming up to a slip road, and the other lanes are busy. Driver 2 on the slip road matches the speed of driver 1 alongside and starts to move into lane 1, or more accurately into the side of driver 1. At no time does driver 2 think to accelerate ahead of driver 1 or slow down and drop in behind. :ugh:

Driver 1 is in lane 3 at a safe distance behind a number of other drivers waiting their turn to overtake traffic in lane 2. Driver 2 comes up fast behind driver 1, flashing headlights and attempting to read the small print on the number plate in front. Lots of weaving around and flashing of headlights continues while driver 1 patiently waits for traffic to clear. Once lane 3 is clear driver 1 accelerates away. Driver 2 remains in lane 3 at the same speed failing to notice that the road is clear ahead. :ugh:

I think one of the biggest obstacles to improving driving skills in the UK, and possibly other countries as well, is the belief that driving is a right not a privilege.

G-CPTN
14th Sep 2011, 23:12
Rear-facing high-intensity red 'fog lamps' were introduced after a spate of pile-ups on motorways in fog.

At the time, many motorists (and some truck drivers) assumed that, being on a one-way road, there would be no obstructions, therefore they could drive at whatever speed of which their vehicle was capable, whilst more cautious drivers drove slowly accepting that there might be an obstruction ahead.
The disparity in speeds was immense, and inevitably, collisions occurred, several severe multiple vehicle crashes.

The high-intensity red lamps were considered to increase the confidence of the slower drivers as well as acting as a warning for those travelling at higher speeds.

Of course, pile-ups still occur in fog - sometimes serious, as some drivers ignore the risk and drive at 'excessive' speed and are unable to stop when the way ahead is blocked by disabled vehicles (which may well be sideways across the carriageway - so any lamps, high intensity or not, are ineffective) but those who insist on speeding when visibility is greatly reduced rarely consider this.

SMT Member
15th Sep 2011, 04:38
Stuckgear

I don't buy that argument - there is a minimum speed on the Autobahn, which if memory serves me right is 60 kmh. That means the convoy of trucks will have to slow down by around 20 kmh at most, unlike fast moving cars who may have to slow down by 100 kmh, or far more, for the passing trucks.

I also don't get the "road blockage" argument - trucks are already road blocks, and if you merge in to the Autobahn you'll see well in advance if there's a convoy of slow movers.

It's not that I mind trucks on the Autobahn, by all means use it. Just only use the inside lane and nothing else.

And for your information I do hold a license to drive a truck, and have been driving trucks weighing far more than 12.5 tons. 40 tons to be exact.

Parapunter
15th Sep 2011, 09:59
Not really SC. You're wasting your words with wishful thinking, so I won't follow down the same path, I'll just get on routing & planning the next 20 artic loads I'm despatching tomorrow.

Mike-Bracknell
15th Sep 2011, 10:06
Yes, it's called "the railway".....

Motorways and other roads would be far less expensive to build if it wasn't for 40 tonners. The increasing amount of damage caused to our roads and kerbs is caused by these huge trucks. We need a better rail network to take these big loads.

Now watch Parapunter jump in with both feet kicking....

Or rather, we need to devote the entire rail network to goods and ban them from the roads :ok:

With the government coming out yesterday saying trains are now a rich man's preserve, it should be win-win!

DX Wombat
15th Sep 2011, 10:24
Put the heavy loads back onto the means of transport originally designed for them - the canals. Sure, there will be some things too awkwardly shaped or sized but a fair amount could be transported by barge.
Trucks do annoy me when they use three out of four lanes so I think that in those circumstances it should be that any towing vehicle should be restricted to the two inner lanes. I tow a caravan and would be perfectly happy to comply with this. Like terrain safe I also stick to the rules and regulations when towing (even when solo) but have to admit that I am thoroughly ashamed by the behaviour of some drivers towing trailers, caravans and especially those towing boats. White Van Man / Minibus with a luggage trailer is a particular menace particularly in the vicinity of airports. Lorry drivers seem to be able to recognise those of us who are trying to tow sensibly and are usually polite and helpful, it is car drivers who are the worst and especially those with the same attitude which smt appears to hold. It always amuses me to see one of these idiots risk their lives to get past a caravan only to find that it is in fact Great Uncle Bulgaria out for a little drive because it's a lovely day, doing 35mph in a 60mph limit zone who is in fact holding up everyone. Patience is a virtue which may one day save your life.
I took the trouble to spend some money to do the Caravan Club's Caravan Handling course and it was some of the best money I have spent. The course not only covered the actual towing and manoeuvering but also other aspects such as correct loading and lasted a day and a half. It also carries the advantage of lower insurance premiums for the caravan. Since 1st January 1997 it is compulsory for drivers to take a further test if they wish to tow unless they held an appropriate licence before then. Perhaps a similar requirement could be put in place for motorway driving.

Carry0nLuggage
15th Sep 2011, 10:36
Prior to nationalisation the railways ran extensive fleets of lorries for the day. They were able to pick up, drop off and do the long haul groupage journeys inbetween; vertically integrated in other words. As an example, the railways were the largest coal merchants in the country when coal was a major source of energy for everyone.

Nationalisation changed all that. British Railways, as was, had to get rid of its lorries, (to British Road Services I think), and that advantage to all of us was lost. Add in the road bias of all governments not just the Tory ones and there we are, stuck in a queue behind Para's 20 loads :p a day .

Incidentally, before the Channel Tunnel, in the days of steam even, produce could be shipped from southern Italy to London by rail faster than by lorries on our modern European moterway network can manage.

Parapunter
15th Sep 2011, 10:46
I love trucks & trailers. They smell like...money. Lots and lots of money.

Skycop
15th Sep 2011, 12:18
I love trucks & trailers. They smell like...money. Lots and lots of money.

Hence your attitude of denial of anything said against them.... :hmm:

Parapunter
15th Sep 2011, 12:42
Turkeys should vote for Christmas?:p

And what was that you were saying about both feet kicking?:=

Skycop
15th Sep 2011, 12:59
And what was that you were saying about both feet kicking?

Yes, you did appear doing just that, as expected.

That post is gone due to problems this end, database errors showing up, and my post appearing before yours so I deleted both.

But I stand by the point made, which is basically that allowing bigger HGVs on UK's roads has caused the cost of building roads (and the time required to build them) to escalate exponentially.

Parapunter
15th Sep 2011, 13:09
Yes, you did appear doing just that, as expected.Should have gone to specsavers mate. I'm doing nothing of the sort.

Stand by the point all you like. Like I should worry about the roads. The more trucks out there with my customers freight on, the better. Kerching!

sisemen
15th Sep 2011, 15:02
I love driving on UK motorways whenever I come back for a trip. I especially like the fact that all the locals use the outside and centre lanes leaving the inside lane free. That allows me to crack on and pass them all.

If I ever get stopped for doing that I'll just plead ignorance because we're allowed to do that in Western Australia. Producing the licence should clinch the matter.

ZOOKER
15th Sep 2011, 15:11
Confine lorries permanently to lane 1.
Then it will look like a train.
Then they will get a clue as to where their freight should really be.

And anotherthing,
those bloody signs that tell me it is '12 minutes to junction x'.
I know, I'm doing 60 mph, I can work it out. Tell me something I don't know.
At least in Jockistan you get, "Don't take drugs and drive". Much more entertaining!

Carry0nLuggage
15th Sep 2011, 15:28
sisemen
I haven't got my copy of the Highway Code to hand so I can't remember the exact words but you are allowed to pass queue(s) of traffic in the left. That's my excuse anyway :ok:

I ain't no goody two-shoes sticking to the speed limit all the time but I can't recall the last time I overtook a coach in free flowing traffic. Usually they pass me at some speed.

driftdown
15th Sep 2011, 15:33
@ Looker
Yup that will do it, and it will leave Lane 1 to be filled with drivers exhibiting their miniscule ability behind the wheel. Generally I find that thinking ahead and giving an HGV driver some options results in a flash of lights in thanks.


@ carryonluggage

I have maintained for years that compulsory refresher courses should be a requirement of keeping a driving licence. Driving is a privilege not a right.

Parapunter
15th Sep 2011, 15:39
Their freight. This would be the things that you buy in shops. The materials that your house is made from. the metal and plastic and rubber in the car that you drive. But it's their freight.

Don't make me laugh Zooker, it's called the supply chain for a very good reason.

Storminnorm
15th Sep 2011, 15:44
I tried drinking and driving once.
I found that I spilt most of it.

ZOOKER
15th Sep 2011, 15:53
Doesn't matter a flying f*ck whose freight it is, it should still be on rails.

"Man made the train,
To carry the heavy load". James Brown

At least Mr. Stobart's enterprise is moving in the right direction.

MagnusP
15th Sep 2011, 16:03
Well, there's a railway line about 200 metres from my house, but no station. Should I just stand by the line and hope the rail staff throw my goods to me?

Parapunter
15th Sep 2011, 16:10
James Brown, that well known logistician.:hmm:


I get bored saying this, but when you work out how to send a loaf down a phone line, or build a railway line round the back of every supermarket, factory & shopping centre, then and only then, I will consider that you have used your thinking cap. Until then, you are talking out of the back of your tautliner.

glad rag
15th Sep 2011, 16:24
personally i drive at the upper limits available (no faster than 10% +4)

So you're okay with 37 in a 30 then? :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Now on a dry quiet motorway I've NO PROBLEM with folk at whatever speed they want, it's this PATHETIC blind rule following and not driving to the location/road conditions that piss me right off.

Many times even 20 in a 30's too fast. You just cannot make a blamket statement like the one quoted.

yellowperil
15th Sep 2011, 16:40
Anyone driving slower than me, 'cos they're an idiot.
Anyone driving faster than me, 'cos they're a lunatic.
Anyone driving who won't get out of my way, 'cos they're impeding the flow of traffic.
Anyone driving up my @rse, 'cos they're a dangerous tailgater.
Anyone driving....at all!

stuckgear
15th Sep 2011, 16:47
So you're okay with 37 in a 30 then? :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Now on a dry quiet motorway I've NO PROBLEM with folk at whatever speed they want, it's this PATHETIC blind rule following and not driving to the location/road conditions that piss me right off.

Many times even 20 in a 30's too fast. You just cannot make a blamket statement like the one quoted.


No, you're extrapolating what you want to. Do i drive at the upper limits over a zebra crossing, in fog, at 3.45 going past a school ? of course not. Don't be a tit for suggesting that.

If the road conditions are appropriate for the maximum speed then it's subject to evaluation of the conditions and the circumstances.

yes indeed sometimes 15 in a 30 is too fast, depending on those conditions. Dont imply something was said when it wasn't.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

yellowperil
15th Sep 2011, 16:59
The problem with the 'safespeed' type of arguement is that it's used far more often to justify higher speeds than currently permitted, rather than lower ones - we never hear of them campaigning for a 'recommended' 20mph upper limit in all residential areas for example, only why they should be permitted to charge around at 50 down side streets....

jxc
15th Sep 2011, 17:05
Just got back from Romania where they 2 different rules for round abouts you either have right of way on it or you have right of way to go straiht across and the people already going round have to stop :ugh:

hellsbrink
15th Sep 2011, 17:55
Or rather, we need to devote the entire rail network to goods and ban them from the roads

With the government coming out yesterday saying trains are now a rich man's preserve, it should be win-win!

There's an obvious problem there. Most of the country ain't served by the rail network.

stuckgear
15th Sep 2011, 18:07
There's an obvious problem there. Most of the country ain't served by the rail network.


Also HB, retail outlets, supermarkets, manufacturing facilities etc dont seem to be located at rail freight depots so if rail did supplant road transportation to get goods where they need to go would require err...... trucks and road access.

flying lid
15th Sep 2011, 18:29
British motorways are the best designed, built, maintained, sign-posted and safest motorways in the world. 99% of all drivers first rate too.

I say this, as just returned from a month in Thailand, drove 2000 or so Km over there. How about U turns every 3 Km or so on high speed 8 lane roads ?. Overtake anything, anywhere, anyway. Roadworks, no signs, cones etc. NONE.

You get used to it after a while, just drive as they do.We had an old big 4x4. Size rules - avoid buses, the wagons (with no lights) come out at night !! Then there's the police, who stop you occasionally for 100 Baht "coffee money", or else !!. Jangles you nerve after a bit.

Drive home from MAN along the M56 & M6 was a real joy.

Lid

Parapunter
15th Sep 2011, 18:31
Ta Daaa!

Spread the word. Rail is great for bulk commodities in large volumes from port to plant. It's what's always been done & long may it continue. There is another problem. Rail lines only have a fixed capacity & passengers are always the priority & thus freight gets shunted to nights & weekends, thus there is only so much that can go through that mode.

The people who run Tesco, GEC, Unilever, Sony, Northern Foods, these are clever people. They have teams of highly experienced, seasoned distribution managers looking at the never ending battle to make distribution operations more efficient and not one of them puts more than a couple of percent of their stock through rail. This is the reality as in the real world & all the wishing in the fantasy world won't change that anytome soon.

Parapunter
15th Sep 2011, 18:47
Nope, lost me. Is it another James Brown tune?:confused:

ZOOKER
15th Sep 2011, 18:51
You don't need to wish. The concept of 'Peak Oil' will, over time, cause major changes. Motorways will be less busy too.

pvmw
15th Sep 2011, 19:01
Much freight could and should be on the railway. Yes, local distribution has to be done by road, but there is no need for 40 ton Artics to be squeezing down small roads and round mini roundabouts to deliver to the local Tesco like they do near me.

There is a very large port is Suffolk, its called Felixtowe - you may have heard of it. There is then an inadequate dual carriageway called the A14 that is used to ship all the freight out of the port and across the country. Much of this freight goes to major distribution centres, before being distributed - thats what distribution centres do - around the country. A few years ago a major hub called Magna Park was built on the A5 near where the A14 joins the M1 and the M6 near Rugby.

Guess what. This new, state of the art distribution centre was built without any rail access - after all, if there was then the haulage industry wouldn't be able to keep its monopoly of shifting freight around the county - so the A14 is now one of the most dangerous roads in the country because of the quite unnecessary amount of freight traffic that has to use it.

Barking mad, and all due to the influence of the road haulage industry.

Parapunter
15th Sep 2011, 19:12
First of all no it isn't. Distribution parks are built by property developers and institutional investors, so the idea that there is some kind of malign influence by shady haulage barons is, in a nutshell, not to put too fine a point on it; ridiculous.

Secondly the roads are built & maintained by the government from taxation. so if a succession of governments have failed to keep pace with the development of Felixstowe, then that is the transport industrys fault how exactly?

Thirdly:
Much freight could and should be on the railway. Yes, local distribution has to be done by road, but there is no need for 40 ton Artics to be squeezing down small roads and round mini roundabouts to deliver to the local Tesco like they do near me.Speak to Tesco. They all keep 33ft trailers on the fleet specifically for access to narrow minded, er sorry, narrow streets.

No need to thank me for the tip.

hellsbrink
15th Sep 2011, 20:39
Barking mad, and all due to the influence of the road haulage industry.

REALLY? It has NOTHING to do with the lack of railway capabilities in the UK, nothing to do with the rail companies not having the capability or facilities to offload trains to get the "cargo" put onto different trucks to be sent to all sorts of different companies and destinations, nothing to do with the failure of the Government to upgrade roads, nothing to do with the companies wanting cheaper delivery costs, etc? It's all the fault of the "road haulage industry"?

"The influence of the road haulage industry". That has to be one of the most stupid comments I've seen in some time......

pvmw
15th Sep 2011, 20:48
"The influence of the road haulage industry". That has to be one of the most stupid comments I've seen in some time......

Remind me, who are the RHA? Oh yes, the Road Haulage Association. Thats the lobby group that want bigger lorries, heavier lorries, more lorries.........

What did Parapunter say?

I love trucks & trailers. They smell like...money. Lots and lots of money.

stuckgear
15th Sep 2011, 20:51
"The influence of the road haulage industry". That has to be one of the most stupid comments I've seen in some time......


even more so the postulation that the Road Haulage industry has the power to direct government policy on rail and road building, yet not the ability to do anything about the cost of diesel

Blues&twos
15th Sep 2011, 21:32
Now, what about 'motorway service areas'? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Vile soul-less rip-off extortionist hell holes.

Ooh. I'm angry now.

Blues&twos
15th Sep 2011, 21:33
Pet hate on motorways? I'm with Skycop - people who don't match their speed when joining...or even slow down.

And cars driving on parking lights.

On the other hand, trucks on motorways I have absolutely no problem with (and I have spent a lot of time driving on motorways in lorries, vans and cars).

Railways I love but the rail industry has been unable to compete with road haulage since the sixties and doesn't have the infrastructure or routes anymore to deal with anything like the quantity of freight which needs to be shipped around the country. Even in the good ol' days trucks were still required to make local deliveries. Like Parapunter says, it's a passenger based system now, freight will always be shunted (cornflakes don't write to their MP when their train is late).

ZOOKER
15th Sep 2011, 21:36
Last year I drove up and down to from Manchester to Jockistan about 40 times (80 journeys), via the M6/M74. The West-Coast Main Line is visible from this route for many miles. How many freight trains did I see in 14 months?
6.

Now, what about 'motorway service areas'? :E

west lakes
15th Sep 2011, 21:42
Yet one of the country's biggest trucking company (Stobarts) runs trains up and down the West Coast in conjunction with a rail company!

Stobart Rail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stobart_Rail)

Standard Noise
15th Sep 2011, 22:15
I've spent 5 hours, 2.5 yesterday and 2.5 today driving to and from that sh1thole that is our nation's capital, on these hideous fecking 'roads' (M3, M25 & M4) and have come to the conclusion that they should be ripped up and returned to nature, all they do is allow the feckwittedest of feckwits to make cocks of themselves and endanger everyone.
Thanks be to god that I, live in a county where there is a dearth of these b4stard hell holes.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

glad rag
15th Sep 2011, 23:16
No, you're extrapolating what you want to. Do i drive at the upper limits over a zebra crossing, in fog, at 3.45 going past a school ? of course not. Don't be a tit for suggesting that.

If the road conditions are appropriate for the maximum speed then it's subject to evaluation of the conditions and the circumstances.

yes indeed sometimes 15 in a 30 is too fast, depending on those conditions. Dont imply something was said when it wasn't.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:You wrote in your first posting

"personally i drive at the upper limits available (no faster than 10% +4)".


Did you or did you not?

Skycop
15th Sep 2011, 23:50
all they do is allow the feckwittedest of feckwits to make cocks of themselves and endanger everyone.

You could always get professional lessons to help you....

ZOOKER
16th Sep 2011, 00:05
I once read a comment from a Red Arrows pilot that "driving on a motorway is like flying in close formation with people that you've never met".

Seldomfitforpurpose
16th Sep 2011, 00:16
even more so the postulation that the Road Haulage industry has the power to direct government policy on rail and road building, yet not the ability to do anything about the cost of diesel

The first lot to bleat every time there is a fuel price hike yet apparantly the haulage industry smells of lots and lots of money.......

Bull sh1t or boast boast this does rather introduce a real credibility issue.

Parapunter
16th Sep 2011, 00:30
Really? Go on then tell me how it's a credibility issue. After all, you're the expert.:)

sisemen
16th Sep 2011, 01:34
Brilliant! Road rage in absentia :eek:

DancingOnTheCeiling
16th Sep 2011, 09:59
Brilliant! Road rage in absentia http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

Oh, I thought most of you were in the UK








:)

sisemen
16th Sep 2011, 10:04
.....of the road :ok:

Avitor
16th Sep 2011, 10:16
Significantly the Police now refer to an RTC as opposed to an RTA.

Just a spotter
16th Sep 2011, 10:23
Here in Ireland there is a significant issue with learner drivers on Motorways. Not only are they driving unaccompanied (which is illegal in its own right), they're not allowed on motorways at all.

Apart from that, drivers who stay in the overtaking lane while traveling at or just above the speed of traffic in other lanes, drivers who undertake on 3 lane motorways (illegal, stupid and incredibly dangerous) and tailgaters (why do you need to be that close to the back of my car? .... what's wrong with the good old fashioned, Institute of Advanced Motorists, mantra of the 2 second rule??!!)

JAS

Al Fakhem
16th Sep 2011, 10:39
Just got back from Romania where they 2 different rules for round abouts you either have right of way on it or you have right of way to go straiht across and the people already going round have to stop

Similar "strategy" in India, where everyone makes up their own highway code as they go along. When I moved to India and started driving, I tried to find out who might have priority in a traffic roundabout. My trusted friend told me "the one going straight through the roundabout has priority". I then asked him how I might find out who intends to go "straight through" and who does not, he said "if you want to go straight through, you use all four indicators (meaning, essentially, you switch on your hazard lights - no joke)".

In a "normal" country, my next question would have been to ask how I would know whether a vehicle that I essentially am viewing from one side is flashing all four indicators or only two...... but I decided to give up on logic.:ugh:

Mr Chips
16th Sep 2011, 10:57
drivers who undertake on 3 lane motorways (illegal, stupid and incredibly dangerous)
Surely technically impossible? If you are in a lane to the right of me, then you must be overtaking another vehicle, therefore I can't "undertake" you...unless you are saying that you are not overtaking, therefore you are in the wrong lane!!!!

RedhillPhil
16th Sep 2011, 13:16
Sorry if it's all been mentioned but having just driven back to Redhill from Thatcham via the M4/M25....
Tailgaters. Flash your lights all you want pal, I'm doing 80 indicated and the lane to my left is full of traffic.
Indifferent overtakers. Ok, I'm doing 80 indicated (see above). Why have you come belting up behind me, overtaken me then cut in front of me and slowed down to 70 so I now overtake you?
Overtakers in a hurry. I'm approaching an exit slip road. because you're so important you can't slip in behind me and turn off, oh no. You have to overtake me then - with feet to spare - cut back in front to disappear up the slip road.
You Sir, yes you. You in the black E-type at about 11.10 - 11.20 along the M25 (possibly on your way to Goodwood). I don't mind you weaving in and out of the traffic but at least indicate and give me a clue.
Telephones. You, the daft bint in a yellow Mini with a telephone stuck to your left ear but holding it with your right hand. Those white lines mark the edge of the lanes, not the centre of where you should be driving.

DX Wombat
16th Sep 2011, 15:04
Sisemen, you know as well as I do that the standard of driving in West Oz is utterly abysmal, much worse than the UK and not helped at all by the existence of those Prat Plates. ("P" Plates for those in UK, -persons who have passed their test but are not yet allowed to do various things.) :* I should qualify this by saying that I haven't visited recently but the opinion of OzPlod (Traffic) rellie is in agreement with mine.

jackieofalltrades
16th Sep 2011, 15:05
Surely technically impossible? If you are in a lane to the right of me, then you must be overtaking another vehicle, therefore I can't "undertake" you...unless you are saying that you are not overtaking, therefore you are in the wrong lane!!!!

Not impossible: Car A in lane 2 travelling at 60mph. Car B in lane 3 overtaking at 68mph. Car C travelling at 70mph moves to lane 1 and undertakes Car B in lane 3.
Car B is legally overtaking in lane 3 and not in the wrong lane. The Car A in lane 2 is in the wrong. (As is the undertaker in lane 1)

Storminnorm
16th Sep 2011, 15:07
The IAM"2 second rule" fails on all counts I'm afraid.
You leave a 2 second gap round here about 4 morons
dive in to fill it up.

sisemen
16th Sep 2011, 15:11
drivers who undertake on 3 lane motorways (illegal, stupid and incredibly dangerous)

Not illegal in Western Australia, not stupid and it is safe (because everyone is used to it and keeps a look out on both sides). However, because it is legal it seems to give the 'right lane hoggers' carte blanche to potter along at walking speed. Grrr

vulcanised
16th Sep 2011, 15:25
In most civilised (and some uncivilised) countries you can recognise police cars because they are labelled POLICE or POLIS, but beware when in Wales because HEDDLU might not mean anything until they nab you.

If you have an accident, you could be carted off in an AMBIWANS.

TBirdFrank
16th Sep 2011, 15:37
The railfreight argument fails because everything in this world boils down to time and cost.

Point to point distribution by rail needs collection by road, and therefore, products waiting for collection rather than despatch when ready - waiting to be loaded onto road vehicle / "cost", then transported to rail terminal - wait/ tranship to rail, wait, transit by rail to destination terminal. From the seond terminal reverse step one and you finally have your delivery for every widget, box of cornflakes, or wardrobe, that needs transporting.

It just isn't competitive in a country the size of the UK for loads of less than around 500 tonnes - hence your A14s etc. Steam hauled small consignements averaged less than seven m.p.h. in steam days. No wonder the world changed

And I write that as a thirty year railwayman and lifelong enthusiast, but one who can smell the coffee.

As for driving standards - anything originating from the country of the autobahn seems to exude a right to the road, no matter what the speed or intentions of the vehicle in front - personally of all the roads I have driven I like the American Interstates best - overtake either side and there just doesn't seem to be the same paranoia to have to be "first" in every queue - or "line"

Capetonian
16th Sep 2011, 15:54
HEDDLU Having just driven through the Rhondda Valley, I saw plenty of those. Some of them have ULDDEH on the front, which is confusing if your mind reads it as that, rather than HEDDLU back to front so that it appears the right way round if your mind doesn't reverse it. Something like that anyway!

Mr Chips
16th Sep 2011, 16:35
Ah but Jackieofalltrades is not the undertaking car undertaking the car in lane 2 rather than you in lane 3? (I ask rather than state as you have proved me wrong before!) :)

jackieofalltrades
16th Sep 2011, 16:58
is not the undertaking car undertaking the car in lane 2 rather than you in lane 3?

The undertaking car is undertaking both the car in lane 2 and the car in lane 3, as it's speed is greater. At some point in the passing manoeuver the lane 2 car will be left behind, and the car in lane 1 will still not yet have passed the car in lane 3. In due time it will pass both cars. Having done so by virtue of driving in lane 1 it will have passed the car in lane 3 by undertaking.

GroundedSLF
16th Sep 2011, 17:17
Sorry jackofalltrades - but if the car is undertaking in lane 1 - then the car in lane 2 is in the wrong lane surely? It should be in lane 1, with the car in lane 3 then able to overtake in lane 2, and the undertaker able to (legally) overtake in lane 3...

Confused myself now:bored:

jackieofalltrades
16th Sep 2011, 17:31
GroundedSLF I did say in the earlier post (#86) that the car in lane 2 is in the wrong. The example I gave was to illustrate that it is technically possible to undertake a car that is using the lanes properly (ie the car in lane 3).

What you describe is correct lane discipline.

visibility3miles
16th Sep 2011, 17:38
Drivers who change lanes and/or cut you off at the last second, or slightly later, when you have the right of way and no options.

It can be fun to watch:

Rush hour, heavy traffic moving briskly. I 'm behind an 18 wheeler in the right lane. Ahead, concrete barriers funnel the breakdown lane into the right lane.

Small truck driving on highway on-ramp. He does not have the right of way.

Does he yield? No! He accelerates hard to squeeze past on the right.

Does he make it? No! Sparks fly off concrete and he bumps the big truck, who ignores him.

Storminnorm
16th Sep 2011, 17:47
Went on the M 1 in about 1961 on my mate's Triumph Tiger 100.

IT WAS EMPTY. Nothing else to be seen for miles.

Mind you, it was Sunday. So they were probably all at Church.

visibility3miles
16th Sep 2011, 18:03
A few years ago, a new 8 to 10-mile-long highway section opened to public traffic at 6 AM. Several drivers thought it could be fun.

Alas, police cars stationed every half mile kept the pace sedate.

stuckgear
16th Sep 2011, 18:06
You wrote in your first posting

"personally i drive at the upper limits available (no faster than 10% +4)".


Did you or did you not?

Yes, I did. However *YOU* extrapolated what *YOU* wanted to and inferred that it was an elective choice at all times irregardless of conditions.

Disingenuous, glad rag. Disingenuous.


:=:=:=:=:=

hellsbrink
16th Sep 2011, 18:31
You wrote in your first posting

"personally i drive at the upper limits available (no faster than 10% +4)".



IN A THREAD ABOUT MOTORWAY DRIVING.

Go back to school.

DX Wombat
16th Sep 2011, 19:21
Now now boys, play nicely, no road rage here please. ;)

Mr Chips
16th Sep 2011, 19:35
OK, bugbear - people who merrily drive at 60mph past the joining lane of a junction, totally screwing up your chance of actually joining the motorway at any reasonable speed!

ZOOKER
16th Sep 2011, 20:02
Those tautliner-towing t*ssers who feel there is a requirement to display some illuminated coat-of-arms type thing on the back wall of their sleeper-cabs. Or those who feel it is essential to decorate the front of said vehicle until it looks like something from Blackpool Illuminations, (see "Crap Days Out" thread).
There are enough distracting/dangerous lights on motorways without these.

Abandoned trailers parked, usually at jaunty-angles, in fields by the carrigeway, advertising some hitherto unknown enterprise you would never dream of doing business with.

tow1709
16th Sep 2011, 20:11
Mr Chips - I am sorry but have to disagree.

It is up to the joining motorist to match his speed to whatever the prevailing conditions are on the motorway. My driving instructor told me to try never to do anything that causes another vehicle to change speed or direction.

On French motorways, joining traffic gets a "Cedez le Passage" sign - translates as "Give Way". I wish we had the same here.

Dr Jekyll
16th Sep 2011, 20:11
OK, bugbear - people who merrily drive at 60mph past the joining lane of a junction, totally screwing up your chance of actually joining the motorway at any reasonable speed!

What would you prefer them to do?

Mr Chips
16th Sep 2011, 20:26
I'd like them to either drive at a reasonable speed, or give way to the traffic which is joining at a higher speed having increased speed ready to join. Its when they are sitting just behind you that is really irritating

Its a bugbear guys - I didn't say i was right, just annoyed by it!

jackieofalltrades
16th Sep 2011, 20:51
OK, bugbear - people who merrily drive at 60mph past the joining lane of a junction, totally screwing up your chance of actually joining the motorway at any reasonable speed!

I agree with Mr Chips here. (Shock horror I know!) It does annoy me when people on the motorway can pull over to free up the lane next to the slip-road for traffic to easily enter, but don't.

Skycop
16th Sep 2011, 21:38
Jackie,

Some car drivers seem to have reached their ability limit by actually managing to join a motorway and drive between the white lines of lane 1. To change lanes is beyond them because they just don't have the mental capacity or the consideration for other drivers to consider it, or what effect their presence has on other drivers.

And they don't adjust their rear view mirrors properly. They won't risk a lane change because their heads are also stuck at the straight ahead position.

By the antics of some drivers, the last thing on their minds is driving. :hmm:

ExSp33db1rd
17th Sep 2011, 01:05
On French motorways, joining traffic gets a "Cedez le Passage" sign - translates as "Give Way". I wish we had the same here.

May not be original, but NZ has a motorway joining sign that says " Merge like a Zip. " Says it all.

Unfortunately, at roundabouts, there is a sign that says "Give Way " and NZ drivers translate that as "Stop " regardless of the position of other visible vehicles on, or approaching, said roundabout.

"Give Way " means - "Do Not Impede The Progress Of " it does NOT necessarily mean STOP !! Drives me mad.

Solid Rust Twotter
17th Sep 2011, 07:26
Lack of situational awareness on the part of most road users. Both frightening and jaw droppingly stupid.

stuckgear
17th Sep 2011, 08:50
Traffic 'bunching up' gets on my tits. A clear stretch of motorway and a group of vehicles all bunching together at the same speed, across all lanes.

Solid Rust Twotter
17th Sep 2011, 09:00
...As they all slow like a bunch of idiot rubbernecking tourists to gawk at someone changing a tyre on the verge. Always makes me think that injecting something really exciting like stamp collecting into lives so empty that they need to slow down to rubberneck on the roads, would result in several blown valves in the crania involved.

GroundedSLF
19th Sep 2011, 10:24
Yeah - rubbernecking getts on my tits too - both sides of the carriageway as well - holds up traffic for miles.

why cant somebody invent a large non see through fence that is located underground on the white line separating the hard shoulder and lane 1, which could be raised at the site of accidents, no need to slow down as you couldnt then see anything...

Oh - hang on though, it would mean roadworks to get it installed :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Carry0nLuggage
19th Sep 2011, 11:22
jackie, Mr. Chips, SC I refer you to my earlier bugbear. It is the job of the driver joining the motorway to give way to traffic already on it not the other way round. That some drivers do move out of the way is a courtesy when it can be done without affecting other motorway users.

The task is really quite simple. Move your right foot such that you can join the motorway either ahead or behind vehicles in lane 1. No need to look fixedly straight ahead and drive into the passenfger side of the car next to you.

GroundedSLF
19th Sep 2011, 11:36
Have you noticed that if there are lorrys in lanes 1 and 2 (and as mentioned previously the one in lane 2 will be travelling 0.0000000001 MPH faster than the one in lane 1) there seems to be a general slowing down of those cars in lane 3 then overtaking.

Particularly noticable in rain...

Always amuses me when the lorry attempting the overtake encounters an incline and gradually loses momentum to the lorry in lane 1, which has probably taken him 30 miles to build in the first place.

DX Wombat
19th Sep 2011, 12:32
Particularly noticable in rain...
Probably due to reduced visibility from the spray kicked up by the HGVs.

Curious Pax
19th Sep 2011, 13:24
Another vote here for rubber necking. Had to nip down the M6/M5 to Bristol and back yesterday. Trip down - perfect, accomplished in 2 hours. Trip back - busier but not too bad up the M5 until a mile short of the M6, then queuing and slow going until near Hilton Park services. Ops normal for most days there, even on a Sunday.

Improved for a while, then got bad around J14 all the way through to nearly at J16 when it suddenly cleared. Don't know if it was the reason, but a motocross event was taking place in a large field on a hill adjacent to the motorway, and it was immediately after that that it cleared. Circumstantially it appeared that that event added an extra hour to my journey!

jackieofalltrades
19th Sep 2011, 14:15
The broken line across the end of sliproads is there for a reason
So why isn't there a 'Give Way' sign as well? The broken line delineates where you may cross the Hard Shoulder line to join the motorway, and not earlier or later where the line is solid. Hence the reason there are green cats-eyes over the broken line, and red ones else where.

jackie, Mr. Chips, SC I refer you to my earlier bugbear. It is the job of the driver joining the motorway to give way to traffic already on it not the other way round. That some drivers do move out of the way is a courtesy when it can be done without affecting other motorway users.
Sorry CarryOn but I have to disagree with you here. yes, it's not for the driver joining the motorway to blindly put their foot down and drive into Lane 1; I never said they should. But it is also dangerous for them to have to slow down to 30-40mph because a driver already in Lane 1 paid no attention to traffic around them, and had the mentality of 'I'm driving on my part of the motorway and woe betide anyone who tries to come into my area.'

west lakes
19th Sep 2011, 15:07
READ THE HIGHWAY CODE

<H3>Driving on the motorway

259

Joining the motorway. When you join the motorway you will normally approach it from a road on the left (a slip road) or from an adjoining motorway. You should

give priority to traffic already on the motorway
check the traffic on the motorway and match your speed to fit safely into the traffic flow in the left-hand lane
not cross solid white lines that separate lanes or use the hard shoulder
stay on the slip road if it continues as an extra lane on the motorway
remain in the left-hand lane long enough to adjust to the speed of traffic before considering overtaking
</H3>
<H4>Lane discipline

264

You should always drive in the left-hand lane when the road ahead is clear. If you are overtaking a number of slower-moving vehicles, you should return to the left-hand lane as soon as you are safely past. Slow-moving or speed-restricted vehicles should always remain in the left-hand lane of the carriageway unless overtaking. You MUST NOT drive on the hard shoulder except in an emergency or if directed to do so by the police, HA traffic officers in uniform or by signs.

</H4>
Can't see anywhere there that requires drivers to make space for joining traffic.
OK courtesy suggests that they might!

jackieofalltrades
19th Sep 2011, 15:28
Point taken west lakes. But the theme of this thread is "Motorway Bug Bears" i.e. discussing manners and attitudes towards driving on a motorway. The point that Mr Chips, others and myself have been making is that it is very discourteous when drivers stick in lane 1 at a junction when traffic conditions permit them to move over to make room for the joining traffic.

It is their lack of attention and awareness to other drivers than irritates me. To quote from the Highway Code:
144
You MUST NOT
drive dangerously
drive without due care and attention
drive without reasonable consideration for other road users
147
Be considerate. Be careful of and considerate towards all types of road users, especially those requiring extra care (see Rule 204).

west lakes
19th Sep 2011, 15:30
Quite correct Jackofalltrades, I have a lot of the same bugbears as are commented on here (a type of thread that seems to appear every year!)
but try not to let them get to me.
At the end of the day there are some appalling drivers on the roads but that does not give others the option to drive without reasonable consideration for other road users

The point is that it is all two way, some of the bugbears seen here are covered by your quote of section 144.

Carry0nLuggage
19th Sep 2011, 15:36
jackie Perhaps I've misunderstood your example but if I was joining a motorway which had a vehicle moving at 30-40mph in lane 1 they'd merely be a rapidly shrinking dot in my rear view mirrors as I made normal progress down lane 1 in front of them.

Westie Thanks. I keep my copy handy for a few days :ok:

So many drivers do not notice slip roads becoming the new lane 1. Or the huge blue signs announcing the fact.

Interestingly, on my advanced driving course they advocated "extending" the slip road along the hard shoulder if lane 1 was very busy in order to prevent oneself coming to a halt and being shunted by drivers with poor S.A. coming up behind on the slip road.

west lakes
19th Sep 2011, 15:38
Interestingly, on my advanced driving course they advocated "extending" the slip road along the hard shoulder if lane 1 was very busy in order to prevent oneself coming to a halt and being shunted by drivers with poor S.A. coming up behind on the slip road.


It could also be suggested that an SA driver would delay accelerating until the joining speed was obvious so not needing to slow down or brake on the slip road

ZOOKER
19th Sep 2011, 15:39
Numpties who, on days when the overall met vis is good, but spray has reduced the RVR to 200m, refuse to turn on Hi-vis rear lights. Or even worse, any lights at all. These folk often drive silver cars, which merge with the grey colour of the spray.

jackieofalltrades
19th Sep 2011, 16:09
jackie Perhaps I've misunderstood your example but if I was joining a motorway which had a vehicle moving at 30-40mph in lane 1 they'd merely be a rapidly shrinking dot in my rear view mirrors as I made normal progress down lane 1 in front of them.

Agreed. The situation I'm envisioning is drivers joining the motorway, indicate and accelerate to the speed of the traffic flow, anticipating the vehicle in lane 1 will move into lane 2 but are forced to brake to 30-40 mph due to the increasingly shortening length of the slip road. They are then having to join the motorway at speeds much slower than the general traffic flow, causing traffic behind to either brake too or swerve into the middle lane.

I'm not saying the joining traffic should blindly accelerate or pull in without consideration and due care, of course they should build their speed to join at an appropriate gap. But sometimes there are no gaps in lane 1, when lanes 2 and 3 are empty. Treating the slip road like a t-junction is not generally safe either.

Personally I think it would be a much safer road layout if the slip road became an actual lane, rather than having the traffic merge, in what is often a very short distance before the tarmac runs out.

DX Wombat
19th Sep 2011, 16:40
Numpties who, on days when the overall met vis is good, but spray has reduced the RVR to 200m, refuse to turn on Hi-vis rear lights.Quite right too, it's illegal. From the Highway Code:
226
You MUST use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced, generally when you cannot see for more than 100 metres (328 feet). You may also use front or rear fog lights but you MUST switch them off when visibility improves (see

Rule 236).
You MUST NOT use front or rear fog lights unless visibility is seriously reduced (see Rule 226) as they dazzle other road users and can obscure your brake lights. You MUST switch them off when visibility improves.

BarbiesBoyfriend
19th Sep 2011, 16:58
What annoys me most is when (on a two lane motorway) people change lanes in order to make room for someone joining.

This means that I need to slow down as they are now right in front of me.

It's up to those joining to match their speed with the traffic already on the motorway!
It's NOT for traffic already on the m-way to start manoevering to allow folk to join.
If you've 'got to' (**** knows why!), for pitys sake, have a look in yer mirrors before you change lanes.:rolleyes:

hellsbrink
19th Sep 2011, 17:48
So why isn't there a 'Give Way' sign as well? The broken line delineates where you may cross the Hard Shoulder line to join the motorway, and not earlier or later where the line is solid. Hence the reason there are green cats-eyes over the broken line, and red ones else where.

And broken lines of different sizes of "line" mean different things. The smaller ones as you merge into lane 1 of a dual carriageway or motorway mean "Give Way". If you have passed your driving test, you should know that and that is why there is no need for any additional signs telling you to "Give Way".

Krystal n chips
19th Sep 2011, 18:05
The insistence of those joining a Motorway to always join in front of you

Highways Agency muppets and their "sit here at 50" irrespective driving

Highways Agency matrix signs...factual information would be setting a precedent !

Nouveaux caravan owners...i.e. those towing a caravan with, invariably, a large 4x4...erm, speed limits are applicable to you as well..on the other hand, one decent cross wind and...

HGV's....and "Big Dazza", right foot on the dash board...wonderful development cruise control..:ugh:

HGV's...and Active Speed control...those pretty red circles showing 40 50 etc..now in use on the M6 around Birmingham....do they have an exemption clause then ?...given that I was under the impression these limits were mandatory when displayed...clearly not...

HGV's who don't say "thank you" with their indicators when you flash them to move in / out...

Middle lane :mad:....and those who sit behind an HGV in a queue on a 3 lane Motorway...so you pull out to overtake in the third lane...HGV moves back into the inside lane....and these :mad: all speed up !...the THIRD lane presumably being some sort of alien landscape.

jackieofalltrades
19th Sep 2011, 18:13
The smaller ones as you merge into lane 1 of a dual carriageway or motorway mean "Give Way". ... there is no need for any additional signs telling you to "Give Way".

Traffic on the motorway has right of way. But, the smaller broken white lines are there to indicate where you are permitted to join or exit the carriageway. You are not to do so where there are chevrons and solid lines. Double short broken white lines actually indicate to give way to traffic on a major road. To paraphrase you hellsbrink, "If you have passed your driving test, you should know that."

hellsbrink
19th Sep 2011, 18:25
And these markings also signify that you "Give Way" when necessary. After all, by your own words, why would you need a sign saying "Give Way" when the traffic you are merging into has "right of way"? You don't, do you.

Anyway, we're not talking about the "double" broken lines on an entry to a major road (could be single ones at a mini roundabout too, remember, still mean "Give Way") so that part is immaterial.

As an aside, I remember traffic lights being installed on the run in to one motorway to control traffic merging into it. Did that ever take off or was it the disaster I thought it would be? Can't remember exactly where it was, but the thought of someone merging after moving off from a dead stop did not exactly fill me with confidence.....

ZOOKER
19th Sep 2011, 18:44
Well, we're about 130 posts in, and it hasn't appeared yet, (as far as I'm aware), so here goes.........
Those c*ck-knockers, who, in spite of having been warned that lane 1,2,or3, (delete as applicable), is closed 800yds ahead, race up to the cones at 90, and then sit there gradually edging into the queue, bringing the entire motorway to a halt.

DX Wombat
19th Sep 2011, 19:08
I have a tale about one of those. It took place on the M6, not too far south past the Thelwall Viaduct on a lovely, clear day. The Matrix signs showed the outside lane as closed further ahead. It was a rare day when everyone was sensible and formed themselves into two lanes, nicely spaced and moving well right up to the 70mph speed limit. All, that is, except Rent-an-Eejit. I was in Lane two and had a very clear view of the little red car obstructing the third lane. I checked my mirror, just in case, and there he was - Halfwit of the Year, hurtling along in the third lane at well over the speed limit in a big, expensive car. He'll move, I thought, er ... no he's not seen it, I'll have to move. I was just about to move into the nearside lane when his overburdened brain cell registered the presence of the little car. He slammed on his brakes then moved sheepishly (I think that's an insult to sheep) into the centre lane where he remained at a very sensible distance from the other vehicles. I think, and hope, he got a very nasty fright. It's probably too much to think he learned a lesson

Groundgripper
19th Sep 2011, 19:22
Zooker,

Posts 11, 13 and 16 refer.

GG.

ZOOKER
19th Sep 2011, 20:06
GG, Yep, sorry, I read those late one evening, after a malt or two! Like the callsign.
Any connection with the fabulous Tridents?

stuckgear
19th Sep 2011, 21:33
Oh i have another one..

The dumb tit f:mad:kers that, when in a contraflow with average speed check cameras, sit on your ass when you are doing the maximum speed available?

Oh i'm sorry, you'd like me to get points just so you can be one nanosecond further ahead, or would you prefer me to serve into oncoming traffic for your convenience.

[email protected] !

and dipsh!ts that can see you indicate to pull out and speed up to close the gap, then you you pull out behind them slow down again. (i watched somone do this once.. to an umarked police car. they looked like they had swallowed a turd when the blues and twos came on)

Groundgripper
19th Sep 2011, 22:00
Any connection with the fabulous Tridents?

Unfortunately no, I never even flew in one.

I just have difficulty getting up in the morning.

It's me age:sad:

GG

Krystal n chips
20th Sep 2011, 05:34
" I remember traffic lights being installed on the run in to one motorway to control traffic "

More than one actually....M6 at Walsall and the M60 at Jnct 2...the latter used to run through the red to red sequence in the time it's taken you to read this.....:ugh:

Ancient Observer
20th Sep 2011, 12:41
Drivers of Volvo estates, who hog the outside lane. Shooting isn't good enough a punishment for them. Make them drive small Hyundais instead.

ShyTorque
20th Sep 2011, 13:17
" I remember traffic lights being installed on the run in to one motorway to control traffic "

More than one actually....M6 at Walsall and the M60 at Jnct 2...the latter used to run through the red to red sequence in the time it's taken you to read this.....

There are also similar traffic lights on some entry sliproads to the M1, too. They allow only two or three cars onto the motorway at a time. They seem to work well at preventing congestion......Until traffic backs up onto the roundabouts a few hundred metres further back, then all hell breaks loose up there, due to many drivers being largely incapable of dealing with roundabouts, either!

Lord Spandex Masher
20th Sep 2011, 13:44
This (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/242176-center-lane-control-positive.html) is a good one!

G&T ice n slice
20th Sep 2011, 14:07
Drivers of Volvo estates, who hog the outside lane. Shooting isn't good enough a punishment for them. Make them drive small Hyundais instead.

Sorry mate, the V40 with the 1598 engine just won't go over 110 uphill

((not, of course, that I would for one moment even contemplate the slightest suggestion of allowing the tiniest consideration of even thinking of the tiniest drift over the mandated velcocity permitted))

OFSO
20th Sep 2011, 15:42
Sorry, roundabouts, not motorways. Only excuse for my rant is they are multi-laned and we are discussing joining/leaving.....


Most here are over 18 metres in diameter (because that way the Catalans get them financed by Brussels - and the approach roads) and have two lanes going round them.

If you are going straight ahead, either of the two lanes can be used.

If you are turning right, indicate/blink right, stay in right hand lane, turn off.

If you're turning left, the logical way is on approach indicate/blink left, move to left hand lane, go round in the left hand lane until you reach your turn off, indicate/blink right and peel off.

Not Germans on holiday in Spain.

If they are turning left, the German way is to stay in the right hand lane, don't indicate/blink but go round in the right hand lane, pulling across the other lanes feeding into the roundabout, reach turn off, indicate/blink right and peel off.

Despite all the German cars that get rammed on the left hand side by drivers who see them in the right hand lane and not indicating/blinking, so think they are going straight on (and are not going to cut in front of them) there's always a plentiful supply of more German drivers to do the same.

I've asked a couple and the answer is "that's the way we do it in Germany".

Sigh. Probably the same goes for keeping the wretched euro afloat (except they call it the "oi-row" instead of you-row.)

ExSp33db1rd
20th Sep 2011, 23:05
Roundabouts are easy in NZ - everybody just stops first ! or uses a right hand indicator to show that they will be driving in a right-handed fashion around the roundabout - doesn't everybody ( we drive properly on the left of the road, UK fashion ) -then goes whichever way they want, usually with right indicator still going, left, right, straight ahead, makes no difference to them !

Having activated a right indicator approaching the roundabout, the next move is to turn the steering wheel to the LEFT - on to the roundabout. Crazy.

Right indicators should be BANNED on roundabouts, EVERYBODY has to do it and continue to do so all day if one wishes, so why bother, I don't care which exit you might eventually use until you are getting ready to leave, all I want to know is when you are turning LEFT across my bows, to exit. Get in the correct lane at multi-lane roundabouts early ( which I accept is difficult in NZ because the concept of overhead signs has yet to reach this Antipode. )

The concept of using a right indicator to suggest that one might be continuing for 270 degrees around the roundabout, is nice to have in theory, but in practice nobody understands the concept and confusion abounds.

"NO RIGHT INDICATORS ON ROUNDABOUTS" will be the name of the new Political Party I will soon establish.

vulcanised
21st Sep 2011, 12:47
I've been a non-right signaller for years.

Only exception is turning right on a T-junction mini roundabout.

OFSO
21st Sep 2011, 13:55
Vulcanised, are you French ? Those buggers indicate nothing, or right, or left, up, down, straight ahead, vanish-in-a-puff-of-smoke: the one thing you know about cars with French 'plates is that they are NEVER going to do what they indicate.....

vulcanised
21st Sep 2011, 15:35
Vulcanised, are you French ?

What a suggestion. Quelle horreur !

I simply indicate left when I'm leaving a (normal) roundabout. Can't see any point in signalling that I intend to go round it.

Parapunter
21st Sep 2011, 16:17
Can't see any point in signalling that I intend to go round it. Save for the poor sods waiting to enter, who are left guessing your intentions.

vulcanised
21st Sep 2011, 17:54
If they have half a brain they know that my intention is to continue round (which is what the roundabout is there for) until I indicate leaving.

ShyTorque
21st Sep 2011, 17:56
Another, from today.

Driver 1 is catching up with slower traffic ahead, in the same lane.

He/she has a choice. Either signal and move to the next lane to the right (i.e. faster lane overtake), or to reduce speed to match traffic ahead and stay in lane until adjacent "overtaking" lane is clear of following traffic.

Either option is good and safe if sufficient notice and a positive signal to others is given.

However, Driver 1 is a numpty. He/she hasn't planned ahead at all (phone call /text etc?). Driver 1 rushes up behind traffic ahead, brakes like crazy and then throws in a last second lane swerve to avoid ramming it or flat spotting tyres.

Driver 2, almost parallel in outer lane, gets one flash of a right indicator, but it's mainly hidden by brake lights. Driver 1 is now doing 55 mph, still braking hard and has decided with no notice to pull out into the adjacent lane of traffic doing 70 mph......

Not only that, but by braking first, Driver 1 made following drivers think that he/she was taking the option NOT to change lanes....

:ugh:

Parapunter
21st Sep 2011, 18:14
If they have half a brain they know that my intention is to continue roundAssuming others get your infallible intentions is not in any way whatsoever a reason to make a superhuman effort to lift your left hand and force that indicator on.

In my experience, making assumptions about other drivers under any circumstances is a risk not worth taking.

ShyTorque
21st Sep 2011, 18:37
True, round here indicators on roundabouts are only used as decoys.

As a long time served motorcyclist, I learned long ago to be aware of the front wheels of a possible "threat" vehicle. The angle tends to be more truthful with regard to where the driver is intending to go in the next few seconds. Also, even a slight movement of a front wheel is very obvious against a wheel arch and may show that a driver is about to drive out of a side exit.

They're all numpties out there and especially when on my motorbike I assume they're all out to get me. I try to make other drivers think I'm driving positively, verging on the aggressive, (but in fact try to actually do the opposite) and I try to look big and fat. Numpties don't like the thought that that a big fat bloke might catch them up and thump them if they p*** him off.

(The IAM's preferred terminology is "defensive driving", but it amounts to more or less the same thing :oh: ).

ExSp33db1rd
21st Sep 2011, 23:58
I simply indicate left when I'm leaving a (normal) roundabout. Can't see any point in signalling that I intend to go round it.

ABSOLUTELY !!! but we appear to be in a minority of 2. ( vote for my new Banish Right Indicators on Roundabouts party )

Save for the poor sods waiting to enter, who are left guessing your intentions.

Better than giving some twerp on the other side - with right indicator going - the benefit of the doubt and waiting for him to pass in front of you, only to discover that he passes up your right side as he effectively goes straight across, and was always going to, despite his right indicator as he approached the roundabout.

If you and I approach at the same time, and I'm indicating left, then my intention is obvious, if I'm not indicating at all I'm entitled to keep going around all day, ( remember the Mad Major, who drove a Bubble Car around Picadilly Circus for a few hours, until eventually stopped by the Police ! ) and all you have to do is decided if I am far away enough for you to join without interfering with my progress, if not then you are obliged to give way. No problem.

If they have half a brain they know that my intention is to continue round (which is what the roundabout is there for)

SPOT ON. FORBID ALL RIGHT INDCATORS ON ROUNDABOUTS.
( Tho' I agree with your T-junction comment, but that isn't really a roundabout, is it, and the concept of a right indicator to achieve a 3/4 trip. around isn't all bad - so long as people understand, and obey the system - which precious few do, hence the problems)

I've finished, thanks, none so blind as don't want to see.

Parapunter
22nd Sep 2011, 07:52
I've finished, thanks, none so blind as don't want to see. Indeed. I guess I will once again spend todays commute cursing the self righteous cretins who leave me wondering what they intend as I wait patiently to enter one of the seven roundabouts I have to negotiate en route to work, but as long as they know what they're doing eh?

remember the Mad Major, who drove a Bubble Car around Picadilly Circus for a few hours, until eventually stopped by the Police ! No. I'm 41, so a driver from the modern era, who has actually read and understood the highway code.:E

Seldomfitforpurpose
22nd Sep 2011, 08:23
Perhaps a re read of this for a few of you would be of great benefit, especially para 186 which clearly defines the very very simple requirements for indicating and positioning at roundabouts.

Roundabouts (184-190) : Directgov - Travel and transport (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070338)

It's designed so your average thick as mince 17 year old can easily understand it so it should not be too difficult for some of the self acclaimed "good" drivers in here but those folk not using a right indicator at a roundabout.....tsk tsk :=:=:=

pvmw
22nd Sep 2011, 08:27
Indeed. I guess I will once again spend todays commute cursing the self righteous cretins who leave me wondering what they intend as I wait patiently to enter one of the seven roundabouts I have to negotiate en route to work, but as long as they know what they're doing eh?
Unsettlingly, I agree totally with Parapunter. The primary purpose of indicators is to indicate your intentions. The name sort of gives it away.

Is it so difficult to raise a finger and show people waiting to enter a roundabout what you are going to do, rather than leave them guessing. If you indicate then it demonstrates that you know what you are doing, and are showing your intention to other drivers. A car with no indicators at all may be going straight on, or left, or round the roundabout - so someone waiting to enter has no idea what his intention is. He may be a self-righteous cretin as PP suggests, or he may just be a bad driver, or he may not know where he is going and have not yet made a decision. No indicators mean all options are open, a good driver who clearly indicates his intention makes life easier for other drivers.

It demonstrates why re-testing of drivers every 5 years is such a good idea. We can be confident that vulcanised and ExSp33db1rd would both fail without remedial lessons.

ShyTorque
22nd Sep 2011, 08:30
SffP, I can't agree more. The Highway Code is the way it must be done. "Independent spirits" who think they know better, or are ignorant of the Highway Code, cause accidents. :rolleyes:

ExSp33db1rd
22nd Sep 2011, 09:26
Never say never, I guess ....

Can't disagree with the sentiments just expressed, but .... wrong indicators are worse then no indicators.

That's the real problem - and a big one, too.

and anyway .... too many indicator users seem to think that just because they are using an indicator gives them a right to do what they want to do. Quote " I had my indicator going " meaning " so why didn't you get out of my way ? "

An indicator is an indication of what one WOULD LIKE to achieve, WHEN CONDITIONS ARE SAFE TO DO SO, and if conditions are safe to carry out ones' intended manouevre - then one might argue that one doesn't need to indicate at all !!

Carry0nLuggage
22nd Sep 2011, 09:44
One thing I've noticed over the years as a road user or merely an observer is that the object of road rage is rarely the one who has done something wrong. Usually the driver who gets worked up is guilty of poor situational awareness, poor driving skills or lack of knowledge of the Highway Code. Often all three go together and some innocent party gets the result, often dangerously.

ShyTorque Did you happen to see how driver 1 in your example behaved after all that braking and swerving in your example yesterday? He sounds like one of those who only react rather than anticipate so it was probably the fault of the other drivers in front for slowing down without braking. :ugh:

Seldomfitforpurpose
22nd Sep 2011, 10:01
Signals (103-112) : Directgov - Travel and transport (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070289)

This section makes it as clear as a clear thing with regard to the use of indicators and any notion that not indicating is a good thing is barking feckin mad.

Not indicating shows a level of disrespect to other road users that has no place on the UK road system. Whats more disturbing is the thought that if some folk think the indictaing requirement of the Highway code is simply not applicable to them what else do they "know best" :eek:

Lord Spandex Masher
22nd Sep 2011, 10:25
A car with no indicators at all may be going straight on, or left, or round the roundabout - so someone waiting to enter has no idea what his intention is.

So? Assume he's going straight on then. If he does good. If he goes right so what, you had to wait anyway. If he goes left then shout and swear at him then you can go.

pvmw
22nd Sep 2011, 10:31
.........some folk think the indictaing requirement of the Highway code is simply not applicable to them what else do they "know best"

Usually of the "I've been driving 57 years........." persuasion.

My other pet hate is the "Manouvre, signal, mirror" cretins. I followed one this morning, he finally applied his right indicator 50 yds AFTER he had left the inside lane for the exit slip road. I s'pose I should be thankful he bothered at all - except that when he arrivd at the roundabout there wasn't a single signal as he went round it.

Parapunter
22nd Sep 2011, 10:31
So? If we're making assumptions...Assume he's going straight on. You then pull out. He carries on round the roundabout. You then have a collision.

I swear some people need pictures drawn to understand simple concepts that are neither difficult to understand nor put anyone out to any degree.

pvmw
22nd Sep 2011, 10:33
Quote:

So? Assume he's going straight on then. If he does good. If he goes right so what, you had to wait anyway. If he goes left then shout and swear at him then you can go.

Indeed, I can do all things. That doesn't make his behaviour either correct or convenient and helpful to other drivers.

ShyTorque
22nd Sep 2011, 11:16
pvmw,

I couldn't see the reaction of the errant driver because he/ she was two cars in front of mine.

However, such folk are seldom apologetic.... it's always someone else's fault because they just don't have the spatial awareness or forethought to realise what they have done.

Another annoying sort are the incompetent ones who sit cruising (possibly with cruise control applied) in an inside lane and put their "overtaking" indicator on without actually doing anything. They are incapable of judging a gap in faster traffic coming up alongside and just hope someone in the lane will suddenly lose 20 mph (and hold everyone behind up) and let them in. This is so they don't have to slow down, let alone brake, for traffic ahead of them in the lane they occupy and would prefer someone coming up behind in the adjacent lane to brake hard to let them in front.

Some of these folk must cause near heart attacks for the driver about to go past them - sometimes there would be no chance to brake if they do pull out....

What's wrong with looking in mirrors, waiting for a good gap in traffic, indicating in good time, accelerating to fit in with traffic in the "new" lane and then making a positive overtake, before pulling back in again?

Lord Spandex Masher
22nd Sep 2011, 11:51
If we're making assumptions...Assume he's going straight on. You then pull out. He carries on round the roundabout. You then have a collision.

If you are talking about someone who enters the roundabout from the opposite entry, who is going straight on, then he only needs to indicate left to exit the roundabout. Would you see this indication? Who knows but not on every occasion.

So now you have a vehicle, appearing to not indicate (but he is, left, only you can't see it) perfectly correctly. Whaddya do?

A. Wait until you are sure.
B. Go anyway.

If the answer is A then what difference does it make if he is turning right? You've had to wait until he either exits or doesn't and continues around.

Seldomfitforpurpose
22nd Sep 2011, 12:16
If you are talking about someone who enters the roundabout from the opposite entry, who is going straight on, then he only needs to indicate left to exit the roundabout. Would you see this indication? Who knows but not on every occasion.

So now you have a vehicle, appearing to not indicate (but he is, left, only you can't see it) perfectly correctly. Whaddya do?

A. Wait until you are sure.
B. Go anyway.

If the answer is A then what difference does it make if he is turning right? You've had to wait until he either exits or doesn't and continues around.

Perhaps the point being made was a little too sublte. In the scenario you suggest actually seeing the left indicator is not important its what the right indicator is doing that is relevant.

Is Para is to assume that because the right indicator is not flashing and therefore signalling a drivers intention to continue round the roundabout its safe to pull out?

Para's point is how does he know its not one of the numpties who refuse to use right hand indication at roundabouts and if he pulls out how can he guarantee he will not be in a collision?

Why not do as the highway code states and take all the doubt out of it :ok:

Roundabouts (184-190) : Directgov - Travel and transport (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070338)

Designed for 17 year old novice drivers, it really could not be simpler :ok:

Lord Spandex Masher
22nd Sep 2011, 12:32
SFFP, I do, don't worry!

I got the point. My point is that you don't know. So better to be safe than sorry no?

If you can't see the left indicator then you won't know either way so you just have to wait and see.


185
When reaching the roundabout you should
- give priority to traffic approaching from your right, unless directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights
- check whether road markings allow you to enter the roundabout without*giving way. If so, proceed, but still look to the right before joining
- watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout; be*aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all

pvmw
22nd Sep 2011, 12:48
Many Possibly most) roundabouts of any size have two lanes on approach, if taking the third exit the highway code says take a position in the right hand lane. When approaching the roundabout in the inside lane it is therefore necessary to move over. The highway code also says you should apply MS(PSL) - thats Mirror, Signal, (Position, Speed , Look) to those too old to have been taught it, so after observation you will indicate and move into the outside lane – or drive round ¾ of a roundabout in the wrong lane and fail your test.

You are now indicating right, are you intending to cancel that indication before entering the roundabout and possibly confusing the driver behind you? What hasn’t been said here is that the indicators don’t only tell those on the roundabout what you plan to do, they tell other drivers as well.

Indicating your intentions early and clearly is a courtesy to, and provides situational awareness for, other road users. I am at a loss to understand why an intelligent thinking person wouldn’t indicate as described in the Highway Code and that not indicating is the correct and clever thing to do.

ShyTorque
22nd Sep 2011, 12:53
I've only ever been given a company car once. Ten minutes after receiving the keys, I was driving it home. I turned left at the first roundabout onto the busy dual carriageway.

I then entered the next roundabout (effectively a crossroads, so there were four exits). I was in lane 2, going straight on and began indicating to exit there, after passing the previous exit road, exactly as per the requirements of the Highway Code.

A woman was driving slightly ahead of my shiny new car, in the left lane, which was clearly marked by arrows for turning left or straight on only. No signal was given by her so as she passed exit 1, it seemed reasonable to assume she was going straight on. I was driving in the centre lane, marked straight on only. However, as this woman to my left reached exit 2 (the "straight on" exit), she braked hard and turned almost a 90 right, right out of her lane, across mine and continued round the roundabout, still without using indicators. I flat spotted all four tyres, stopped and missed her car by an inch. She also caused the HGV artic alongside me to skid and partly jack-knife on my left side in clouds of rubber smoke.

Could have been the end of the only company car I've ever had. Mind you, as it was a Vauxhall Vectra diesel powered bathtub, that might have been no great loss.

I often wonder if that woman always treated roundabouts in that way and is she still alive... :hmm:

Carry0nLuggage
22nd Sep 2011, 12:58
Some of these non-indicating drivers might be forgiven for falling foul of that most useless invetion, the self cancelling indicator. You signal to move right and continue round the roundabout but what's the first thing that happens as you approach the roundabout give way marks? You're forced left by the layout and thereby cancel the signal. :ugh:

Useless bloody things. Always cancel indicators when you need them and never when you don't.

DX Wombat
22nd Sep 2011, 13:19
I am at a loss to understand why an intelligent thinking person wouldn’t indicate as described in the Highway Code and that not indicating is the correct and clever thing to doBecause they know better than everyone else and anyway they pay Vehicle Excise Duty so therefore they own the road. :mad:

Storminnorm
22nd Sep 2011, 15:35
I suspect there is a local tax for using indicators round here.
No one ever indicates.
I use them myself, but get some VERY strange looks.

Parapunter
22nd Sep 2011, 15:38
It's not the indicators Norm.

Storminnorm
22nd Sep 2011, 15:46
Ah! Oh!! OK then !!!

Could it be my Roy Rogers outfit d'you think?

MagnusP
22nd Sep 2011, 15:58
That, and carrying Trigger in the passenger seat.

Storminnorm
22nd Sep 2011, 16:02
I've TOLD the Memsahib SHE can sit in the front if she REALLY wants to!!!

I'm sure we can sort something out with regards to where the bucket goes.

JWP1938
22nd Sep 2011, 19:34
My local radio station was taking calls/opinions on bad driving in our area. I pointed out one roundabout where the 1st exit led only to an industrial estate (although a normal sized valid exit) and the main road was the 2nd exit. Most traffic therefore would be taking the 2nd exit. I said that I had seen many near misses where someone approached the roundabout with their left indicator flashing only to take the 2nd exit and nearly colliding with vehicles entering the roundabout from the 1st, who assumed that was where they were exiting. A woman who claimed to have been a driving instructor for over 20 years phoned in to respond saying to ignore me because "there is no right of way so indicate whenever it feels right to you." I have actually seen at least two collisions there since then due to what I have just described. Ignoring the fact that she may be technically correct it is amazing that common sense seemed to be absent in these actions. I know that the law apparently says that you should ignore indicators as that is what they are - indications, not certainties but not much point arguing about that after you have bent your vehicle and maybe been injured.
Similarly, when I moan about people sitting in right turn only lanes with their right indicator flashing, my wife says "It doesn't matter does it?" No, it doesn't, but it shows a lack of awareness of the road and conditions which may, in other circumstances, contribute to an accident.

ShyTorque
22nd Sep 2011, 20:50
Similarly, when I moan about people sitting in right turn only lanes with their right indicator flashing, my wife says "It doesn't matter does it?" No, it doesn't, but it shows a lack of awareness of the road and conditions which may, in other circumstances, contribute to an accident.

But indicators aren't just for the benefit of other drivers following along behind. There are other folk about who can't see the road lane markings that seem obvious to you.

e.g. Pedestrians wanting to cross, or road users coming from another direction.

It doesn't cost anything extra to use them, they are paid for when you bought the car.

CEJM
22nd Sep 2011, 22:42
Just coming back to the use of indicators on roundabouts.

OFSO is complaining about the Germans not using them on the roundabouts even when they go round 3/4 of it.

I take it that the German law is similar to the Dutch law in this regard. In The Netherlands it is against the highway code to indicate left when on the roundabout if you go 3/4 round. We are taught to treat it as a straight road and you only indicate when you arrive at your exit.

Of course you have to adapt to the local highway code of the country you are driving in but it might just explain why some German/Dutch/Belgian drivers don't indicate untill they get to their exit.

Carry0nLuggage
22nd Sep 2011, 22:49
one roundabout where the 1st exit led only to an industrial estate (although a normal sized valid exit) and the main road was the 2nd exit The typical council road sign department response to this situation would be to ignore the first exit and only show the main road on the signs. If you are used to counting off exits to make sure you get the correct one, a useful trick on large roundabouts, this can be rather misleading. :eek::mad: The giveaway before you have to do a U turn is the large amount of rubber on the road where other drivers before you have spotted the mistake too late. :ok:

ExSp33db1rd
22nd Sep 2011, 22:50
It demonstrates why re-testing of drivers every 5 years is such a good idea. We can be confident that vulcanised and ExSp33db1rd would both fail without remedial lessons.

At age 75 I had to undergo a medical to keep my licence, ( if you can walk in unaided, remember the doctors name without prompting, and locate where he is sitting - with or without glasses -you pass ) and I also voluntarily enrolled in an Aged Driver Refresher Course - theoretical, not practical.

NZ had just made the 'Use the right indicator when turning right' i.e. 270 deg. manouevre at a roundabout, compulsory and printed it in the new Road Code, with pretty coloured diagrams.

The Instructor .... wait for it ....got it wrong !! I suggested that we got a passing 5 yr. old to explain it. (hat, coat, door )

If you can't see the left indicator then you won't know either way so you just have to wait and see.

Exactly. It's when they are indicating right, and you politely wait, then they go straight on up your right side with or without a switch to a left indicator at the last minute............... !#$^*%@ ....and it happens. Often. ( but maybe not in the UK, perhaps you're all perfect ? )

Ban right indicator on roundabouts, then everyone has to be careful.

In practice, despite my rant, and to soothe some savage breasts, I do actually use my right indicator as promulgated in the NZ Road Code, 'cos it's the Law - innit ?

But I don't have to agree. It's the misuse and confusion that kills, not the rule.

When I'm World Dictator .........................!!

Lord Spandex Masher
22nd Sep 2011, 23:22
NZ had just made the 'Use the right indicator when turning right' i.e. 270 deg. manouevre at a roundabout, compulsory and printed it in the new Road Code, with pretty coloured diagrams.

Wouldn't that be left?!:E

Can I be your world leading sidekick?

ShyTorque
22nd Sep 2011, 23:29
You've just indicated that you want to be a right hand man? :\

ExSp33db1rd
22nd Sep 2011, 23:43
Lord Spandex Masher

?? mmm ??

Approaching a NZ roundabout from the 6 o'clock position, and intending to leave at the 3 o'clock position,(NZ/UK clockwise motion - USA readers cover your eyes ) it is now a 'requirement' to indicate right before entering the roundabout. ( one then swings left into the roundabout, and as has been mentioned, some indicators self-cancel ! )

A driver approaching at the 12 o'clock position is then entitled to expect that car to move from his right to his left across his bows, as it completes what I describe as the 270 deg manouevre, and might consider the separation is such that he should stop and give way.

The driver who then started at 6 o'clock - with a right indicator - then takes the 12 o'clock exit, i.e. down the right hand side of the driver waiting at 12 o'clock, which he always intended to do, usually (here in NZ) without changing to a left indicator passing the last exit before the one intended.

Anti-cyclones turn the wrong way down here, and the Sun goes around the wrong way, too, still East to West of course, but looking up at it instead of down, so I often get my East and West reversed ! but I 'think' left and right are the same. Sorry if I've confused you ( and me ! )


Yes, when do we start ?

MagnusP
23rd Sep 2011, 09:54
LordSM has a point, and we're working in two different reference frames here. If you go all the way around the roundabout and head back down the road on which you arrived, you've used 360deg of the roundabout but only turned your car 180deg. Is that a 360 or 180 manouevre?

ExSp33db1rd
23rd Sep 2011, 10:25
I'm calling that a 360 in my examples, i.e. all the way around the circle

If I approach from the 6 o'clock position heading North, and effectively turn right
and head East, then I've gone 270 deg. around the circle.

Sounds like the arguments I have with my American wife, glass half full or half empty ? Tom art oh or Tom ate oh, tap or faucet.

It's all too much, I'll stick to flying - it's easier.

Capetonian
24th Sep 2011, 09:28
Someone mentioned self-cancelling indicators. Bloody things. Yesterday I'm driving a rental car in a place I don't know well, coming up to a right turn indicate right, position correctly, but there's a slight left hand bend immediately before the right turn, so the indicator cancelled, chap behind either thought I'd changed my mind or was dithering and nearly goes into the back of me. Partly his fault for relying on indicators, I don't, but we should be able to really.

ExSp33db1rd
24th Sep 2011, 10:18
.........but we should be able to really.

but if they're wrong .......... ( and on NZ roundabouts about 70% are - truly )

No indicator means one has to be wary, anything might happen, but having been told what a vehicle is about to do, then one acts accordingly, and the brain moves on to the next thing -which is when Murphy shouts ... Got ya !

Seldomfitforpurpose
24th Sep 2011, 10:25
Self cancelling indicators have been around for ages, if folk are actually struggling with this extremely simplistic bit of kit it does make me wonder if said folk should be allowed out on their own in something as complex as a car :eek:

Capetonian
24th Sep 2011, 10:55
Not really a fair comment, Seldomfitforpurpose, as whilst you might be used to the self-cancelling on your own car, the trigger point will be different on other cars. On some cars the indicator light is fairly bright and may be accompanied by a sound, on others this is less apparent. As it happens, the car I was driving was one I'd picked up at the airport and had driven 5 miles, there was no audible warning, and I was driving west into the setting sun so it was hard to see the lights on the panel.

It is always easy to pick holes in someone else's argument and criticise their action, but then maybe you are one of those people who has lived their entire life without making a mistake. If so, I salute you.

Blues&twos
24th Sep 2011, 11:37
Have to agree with Seldom, here. Driving is an exceptionally complex process (try getting a computer to do it).

We're talking about switching indicators on and off. Sure, everyone forgets from time to time (hence "self cancelling indicators"), but this has got to be one of the easiest bits of driving to cope with, along with closing the doors and turning the ignition key...

Selecting and changing gear at the appropriate speed is surely more difficult than indicating, but not many people complain about the number of ratios they have.

vulcanised
24th Sep 2011, 12:46
Never mind self cancelling indicators.

The very worst ever have to be those on a clockwork timer that were fitted to the Austin A40.

ZH875
24th Sep 2011, 12:57
If you go all the way around the roundabout and head back down the road on which you arrived, you've used 360deg of the roundabout but only turned your car 180deg.

[pedant mode]

Err, NO, you have not covered the full 360deg of the roundabout if you go back down the road you came out of.

The reason for this, is that there is a small part of the roundabout that you have not driven over, the part between entering and leaving.

To be certain of covering the full 360deg of the roundabout and have your car effectively do a 180deg turn, then you need to do a circuit 1½ times around said roundabout to ensure the 360deg cover.

[\pedant mode]

Ever seen a surveying vehicle survey a roundabout, it makes you dizzy just watching it.

ShyTorque
24th Sep 2011, 13:36
Never mind self cancelling indicators.
The very worst ever have to be those on a clockwork timer that were fitted to the Austin A40.

If left to their own devices, the indicator stalk on my wife's car flicks straight through "OFF" and goes to "ON" in the opposite direction.

They're great on roundabouts! :E

Seldomfitforpurpose
24th Sep 2011, 20:34
It is always easy to pick holes in someone else's argument and criticise their action, but then maybe you are one of those people who has lived their entire life without making a mistake. If so, I salute you.

Cape and others,

I am far from perfect, in fact I am anything but however the degree of difficulty posed by the self cancelling indicator ranks right up there alongside the problems posed by the ring pull can, the biro and breathing :ok:

G-CPTN
24th Sep 2011, 21:36
Never mind self cancelling indicators.
The very worst ever have to be those on a clockwork timer that were fitted to the Austin A40.
Some time-limit device would be useful for those absent-minded drivers who continue along straight roads with their winkers wanking . . . :ugh:

ExSp33db1rd
24th Sep 2011, 22:23
with their winkers wanking . . .

Maybe they're wanking winkers ?

They're great on roundabouts!
Whoopee !! Such Fun.

The reason for this, is that there is a small part of the roundabout that you have not driven over, the part between entering and leaving.

Not guaranteed if you're a European, or USA ( or other wrong side ) driver.

Drive On The Left stickers are attached to rental cars - but some drivers can't read, so an arrow is sometimes added. Makes little difference to some.

Recently came radiator to radiator to a European driver on a very narrow lane - we both pulled to MY left. ( shall I show you my Panel Beating / Repair Shop bill ? ) Fortunately we were both going slowly, as conditions dictated, but not all do.