Night VFR

[Kiwi206]

G'day

Been reading for a while, only just joined.

I've recently converted my NZ CPL to Auz CPL.

My Night VFR is restricted to Circuit ops only, i've got 11 hours night (3.1 hours night X/country). Do i just need to do a night X/country flight test to gain a full NVFR? Any recommendations of who in the Sydney area would be best to do this with? I guess someone who can do the test in house is best.

Secondly, I'm going to be heading up North in January, from Sydney, to join the hunt for work.
Before i do, i want to gain a thorough understanding of any differences between NZ and Auz CPL law.
I've been trawling through the CASA site but am yet to find all the info I'm after. Obviously the majority of it is pretty similar or they would make you sit the air law exam, but I still want to have a read through it all.
In NZ we have Part 91 and Part 135 etc. Which CAR's/CAO's relate to Private Op's and Commercial Op's(GA)?

I've found a few places that do online DG awareness courses, so I'll be doing one of those? I'll most likely do a First aid course before heading up too.

Main info I'm after is NVFR and Law, but feel free to throw in any extra advice. To do/not to do etc.

Cheers

[Ozzie Mozzie]

The requirements for an Australian NVFR are in CAO 40.2.2 Appendix 1, given your hours it appears you fall short of meeting the requiement for 5 hours cross country at night including 1 nav of 3hrs and covering 100nm. I wouldn't have thought you need to have a flight test if you already have the kiwi rating, but then I wouldn't really know anyway. Might be worth giving CASA a call to find out, although they might not know themselves either.

Private ops are in CAR 2 (7), CPL priveledges are in CAR 5.105. CPL ops are apparently in CAR 206, but I was having trouble finding that just now. Be careful with your private ops, it's not worded very well and a lot of people think you can only with with 6 POB as a PPL, what it actually means is you can only cost share with up to 6 people incl. pilot.

Hope that helps, it can be tricky finding all that stuff, particulary through the CASA website. Might be worth investing in a CPL air law textbook.

[Kiwi206]

CASA's website is a bit of a handful alright.

Cheers for your help there.

I've been looking at getting a CPL air law book, anyone used the Bob Tait one?

As for NVFR, again, pretty confusing alright. I'm guessing to remove the circuit ops only restriction will just take some night X/country work.

[The Green Goblin]

The NVFR conversion has always been a cause of contention between our countries.

I'd suggest going to a pilot shop and getting an Airlaw text book.

[Nose wheel first]

What Goblin said!

Get a copy of an Air Law book.... Bob Tait produces some pretty good stuff... and learn it back to front.

Also get a set of AIP's and read them, over time, from front to back. I know a lot of what is covered in the AIP relates to IFR but it will broarden your knowledge greatly!

There are subtle differences between NZ and AUS law and they could bite you on the bum if you're not aware of them.

As far as the night conversion goes, I believe you will have to sit a flight test in order to get it on your licence. The main reason for this is that back in the old country there is no requirement to be able to track using nav aids at night whereas here, there is. That is why on conversion your unrestricted NZ CPL night rating becomes AUS CPL night - restricted to circuit area ops only (from memory this allows you out to 15nm... it's somewhere in the regs)

PM me for more info...

NWF

[NZScion]

If you hold a current MECIR (in Australia) you should be able to have an FOI remove the endorsement without a flight test.

[Tmbstory]

You should try taking off on a pitch black night with no visual lights for reference and see how much VFR you come up with.

It has to be called an Instrument Rating and not Night VFR.

Tmb

[VH-XXX]

Tmb, if you can't fly on instruments you shouldn't be flying at night, however that does not mean it should be called an IR. If you didn't realise that when you did your NVFR you missed the whole point of it. If everyone keeps whinging about how dangerous NVFR is you will spoil it for everyone who is using it for what it is intended.

[The Green Goblin]

Perhaps the regs need to be re-written ;) to state that to depart under the NVFR the take off or landing shall be conducted in the Daylight. This will therefore establish the spirit of what NVFR is intended for (to depart before first light or arrive just after last light).

I've blasted off under the NVFR in a single engine aircraft quite a few times without a CIR. To say it is foolhardy is an understatement.

I scared the absolute **** out of myself one time. Months later a C210 came to grief in the same place in a similar situation killing the Pilot.

The ATPL night hours are not worth your life.

I was lucky.

[BrokenConrod]

It has to be called an Instrument Rating and not Night VFR.

My "old" licence says: Instrument Rating - Class Four !

BC :cool:

[Kiwi206]

Cheers for the info so far.

I'll definitely be getting that air law book.
Are the AIP's similar to NZ? We have Volumes 1-4.
Volume 1 - general/planning
Vol 2&3 - IFR
Vol 4 - VFR

My CIR has expired but i imagine i'll pick up the Nav-aid stuff for a NVFR fairly quick. I guess a flight or 2 will do the trick.
No harm done doing a bit of flying before the journey North anyway :ok:

[The Green Goblin]

Forget everything you know, and relearn it.

And don't fight it, "in NZ we did it like this!"

You are in Australia now and nothing in aviation is cheap or easy.

Australia has all the documents listed on the airservices Australia website. They are available to download for free.

[Tmbstory]

VH- XXX:

I actually did,in conjunction with the DCA, the initial proving flights and the development of a training syllabus for the night VFR or Class 4 Instrument rating.

It is an Instrument Rating in the critical phase of a "black hole" night take-off 100%.

Tmb

[Kiwi206]

GG, I have no intention of fighting it. It is a different country so naturally different rules/laws/regs exist. Just looking to gain as much knowledge as possible.
Cheers for the heads up about airservices Australia, very handy.

Thanks for all the help everyone :ok:

[JustJoinedToSearch]

Kiwi206 I think you'll find what GG was talking about is more things like;

"Why do I have to look in two seperate documents for the one thing? This is just stupid."
"How the hell am I supposed to find what I'm looking for, there isn't an index!"
"This is directly contradictory to what is written somewhere else."
"Why is this written in such a terrible way as to be confusing and widely open to different interpretations from different FOI's etc"

I know you say you won't fight doing things differently because it's a different country/rules etc but you're probably thinking along the lines of 'I drive on the left, but in this country they drive on the right so I'll do that'. What you get in Australia is 'In this country you have to drive backwards on the right and stop every 1km to do a handstand.'

Before you start you just have to make sure you take in the mindset of "CASA are deliberately making this as difficult as possible to understand and use."

You could spend a lot of time musing over how terrible the whole system is (including the exams, but you can find out that hell for yourself:8), but it's better just to accept Aus aviation is a bureaucratic mess and you will find yourself fighting through a mass of red tape to do anything.

The flying is fun though:ok:

[Ted D Bear]

The real problem with NVFR is the vast range of circumstances it theoretically authorises you to fly in.

Now, a jolly on a clear night with a full moon over Sydney, Melbourne or Brisbane is hardly difficult instrument flying. Can virtually read the VTC without flood lighting (or torch) on some of those nights - which is good, 'cause the real challenge is staying out of class C. But it is solid VFR stuff, really.

On the other hand - try going over the top of the field at say Merimbula on an overcast night with no moon to do the requisite left or right circuit over water ... With a current CIR, it still gives me the heeby-jeebies! That's serious instrument flying - but perfectly legal with a NVFR rating.

Ted

[Rogan82]

The old and not so bold once told me...'Single engine NVFR is a complicated and expensive form of suicide'. I'm lucky I have 4 engines!