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Hell Man
10th Sep 2011, 10:33
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/09/09/article-2035720-017D7FFC0000044D-113_468x564.jpg

Ten years after 9/11 what are your thoughts? Are we making progress? Was this about religious differences, about financial inequality, about poor US foreign policy - what do you believe to be the real reasons behind 9/11 and what is the way forward?

moscovite
10th Sep 2011, 10:36
I think is importan for be able discuss these subject - if no talk then no progress.

flying lid
10th Sep 2011, 11:03
Progress ? - No way. The world is going backwards, more dangerous.

Oli is running out - slowly. The days of very cheap, abundant easily obtained and transported energy (oil) are drawing to a close.

9/11 IS linked to the above, as well as many, many other things.

And why did tower 7 collapse, into its own footprint ?. It was on fire, but was hit by no plane. How many other 47 story skyscrapers have "collapsed" like this - answer - NONE.

My feelings are with all the innocent folks who died on that awfull day.

Lid

stuckgear
10th Sep 2011, 11:03
Was this about religious differences,

Yep.


about financial inequality,

Nope.


about poor US foreign policy

Nope.

To understand the circumstances that led to 9/11 you have to look at figures like Sayyid Qtub to understand where radical Muslim extremism had it roots in the 20th century. The circumstances of the assassination of Sadat and the indoctrination preached by the students of Sadat (of which bin-bag bin laden was). US foreign policy was not poor but hamstrung by political appeasement and indeed some failures (which does not indicate the policy was poor itself).

A good book to understand the rise and circumstances of the events of 9/11 is Unholy Wars by John K Cooley, first published in 1999, of which the copy i have has Bin laden on the cover and indeed from review it can be seen that certain events were inevitable.

The key failure was the lack of understanding and the lack of experience in the US that foreign insurgents would carry out devastating acts on home soil. The other key failing was the inability of inter-sharing of data between agencies.

There will always be people that hate and despise you for what they think you are, what they think you stand for, what they want to blame you for.

There has been much introspection for the US following these events, but ultimately the cause and responsibility lies completely with those that financed, organised and carried out such acts.

Earl of Rochester
10th Sep 2011, 14:51
Please show some respect for the victims and close this thread.

A better reponse might be to answer Hell Man's original question:

.. what is the way forward?
And I would take the advice of moscovite too:

I think is importan for be able discuss these subject - if no talk then no progress.
Steering debate in the right direction (meaningful discussion) is always better than shutting it down.

shedhead
10th Sep 2011, 14:55
I don't see any anti americanisms in the OP but yes, please can we avoid yet another trawl through the conspiracy swamp. it has become very tiresome. It also shows a profound lack of respect for those who lost loved ones.

hellsbrink
10th Sep 2011, 14:58
Hell man was answered. He has not responded. Maybe he didn't get the response he wanted.

And "financial inequality" is not a reason for 9/11,and neither is "religious differences". Even talking about the US Foreign Policy at the time will not bring us to a "reason" for 9/11, any more than the actions of the Clinton regime were a "cause" for the 1993 bombing which almost brought down the WTC.

El Grifo
10th Sep 2011, 16:09
There has been much introspection for the US following these events, but ultimately the cause and responsibility lies completely with those that financed, organised and carried out such acts.


The attack on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon was the most dastardly act carried out in my lifetime, along with thousands of others on that day I turned to my significant other and exclimed that the world would never be the same again.

There is no escaping the fact that the American people were let down badly by the agencies and authorities charged with their protection. All of the on shelf disaster and emergency planning was based on Cold War thinking and the catalogue of failures and cock-ups on the day certainly contributed to the success of the attack.

El Grifo
10th Sep 2011, 17:09
Not much to argue with there BandAide. The responsibilty is widely shared.


Lot's of unfinished business remains to be answered from the deeds of 9/11. This won't be over till we say it's over.

Ain't that the truth !

sea oxen
10th Sep 2011, 22:35
I remember that afternoon rather too well.

A colleague remarked that the Americans had brought it on themselves. This was in the country of Hamburg and Dresden. Nice.

The second aircraft went in and everything was paralysed, although Pprune was limping along. Down to the pub to watch the grotesque events unfold. Brother in law had just married, stranded on his honeymoon. My uncle died (unrelated to the attacks).

I think that the most horrifying image that sticks with me to this day is Elvis Presley and Lord Lucan blowing up WTC7, before being flown away in a flying saucer by Paul McCartney, who'd of course died in a car crash in 1967 but had been resurrected with alien technology, financed by the oil companies, Big Tobacco and McDonalds.

The world is now a shittier place.

SO

corsair
10th Sep 2011, 22:49
I'm pretty sure I contributed to this thread. It does seem to have been moderated. A rare moment in Jet Blast.

Notable too is El Grifo stance which appears to have moderated too.

Glad to see the conspiracy crap is gone. Really it was tiresome and insulting particularly as it has long since been repudiated.

risk
11th Sep 2011, 11:19
Regardless of whom, what & why; which by the way are most profoundly important questions; we should really be discussing how that Godforsaken day has affected us in the Aviation world.

The fact of the matter is that no matter how hard we try, we the common public will never be able to answer those questions, simply because we do not possess ALL the facts. Yes, we can surely indulge in mature discussions of it based on evidence that we have, but at the end of it a final conclusion will never be reached as there will always be some gaps in our explanations.

Therefore, the real ‘discussion’ is how we AVIATORS have been affected… and by God, we have been affected badly. Till today, 10 years on we still are feeling the wrath, the heat, the pain. Put aside our religious, political & social alliances for a few seconds & ponder solely about aviation… we all on this website are registered because we love aviation, we love flight, aircraft & all that encompasses the aviation world.

Unfortunately, whosoever for whatsoever reason used our beloved aircraft to carry out that heinous act & now here we are still finding it difficult to get ourselves a job in this felid… we have to look forward, us aviators, we have to stand together. What was done is done, we can’t change it, but what we can change is the perception that the world still has about our beloved field. Our field was a symbol of freedom…. Not anymore… now when you think flying, you think all the negative things that you can (security checks, dangerous passengers, body scanners etc etc)

I want to write a lot more, but I will stop. My condolences & prayers go out to all the innocent people who were killed on that day & the aftermath & repercussions of that day in the entire world…

stuckgear
11th Sep 2011, 11:26
risk,

:D:D

Matari
11th Sep 2011, 13:42
Grifo, can you at least give it a rest for today of all days?

SMT Member
11th Sep 2011, 13:50
My recollection of 09.11.01 is one of anger, rage even, that anybody would use the industry I have loved since a child, to such devastating effect. I also recall immense sorrow over the loss of innocent lives, but most of all I remember the feelings I had in the days following; we're all Americans now, and just like I'd defend my brother with my life, I would go all the way to defend my American "brothers and sisters".

I'm a big boy, I don't cry. But I did on this day 10 years ago, and watching the memorial service live, my eyes are once again watering up.

El Grifo
11th Sep 2011, 13:54
I have nothing more to say Matari !

I feel as sad, horrified and angry as anyone on the planet at the dreadful carnage visited on those thousands of innocent people on that fateful day.

It was truly terrible and the images have not diluted with time.

Discussion should not be stifled by date however.

I sincerely hope the ceremonies of the 10th anniversary help to heal the wounds of the still grieving families.

Um... lifting...
11th Sep 2011, 14:16
Actually, the premise many of you are missing is that arguing with a zealot is pointless. The zealot spends as much of his or her time as possible latched onto his or her belief that something happened a certain way. Because of this, the zealot has already planned to refute arguments that will come along.

The non-zealot, who does not act in this way, can only refute the arguments of the zealot by becoming a zealot his or her self. Two zealots of differing belief will never manage to reach common ground nor will one ever convince the other.

IRT materials failures, I have a wee bit of schooling in that myself. Yield strength of steel begins to reduce at temperatures above 300C. Depending upon other factors, failure occurs between around 550-750C. Typical measured operating temperatures in turbine engines are on the order 6-700C, keeping in mind that turbine engines are controlled combustion that are cooled by their designed airflow to temperatures far lower than static combustion of the same fuel would be.

And a conspiracy zealot who says: "But, but, but... " can only offer an alternative explanation that involves hundreds of secretly placed explosive charges, carefully chosen and selected video clips and interspersed ejaculations of: "See?!" while ignoring the reports of thousands of eyewitnesses.

SASless
11th Sep 2011, 14:27
I had a long post written in response to those who cling to a conspiracy theory about 9/11 but gave up. Instead... I will simply say this....You are so completely full of Shit!

It happened...don't trivialize the loss of all those People who were killed and maimed that horrible day or demean the courage of those who went beyond the Call such as the Firefighters, Police, and others... especially those aboard UA-93.

We miss you Sandy!

Sandra W. Bradshaw - Hero Of Flight 93 (http://www.flight93memorialsfb.com/Heros-Of-Flight-93/pages/Sandra-Bradshaw_jpg.htm)

visibility3miles
11th Sep 2011, 15:16
It is easier to destroy than to create, but what's built matters more than chaotic destruction.

Arson is easy, carpentry is hard: No matter how small your contribution, you'll have something to look upon far longer as a builder.

Take responsibility to plan for healthy growth for everyone around you. We are in this together.

If all you can imagine is to go up in flames, do it alone.

Smoking ashes make way for healthy growth.

What once was always leaves way for something new.

flapsforty
11th Sep 2011, 16:22
This site is first of all for professional pilots, secondly for all other aviation professionals.

The terrorist acts of 10 years ago killed 3000 people, profoundly affected the United States of America, and for ever changed our working lives in world wide civil aviation.

Show some respect people.
If that is beyond you, just do not post.
Not today.
On this subject, not ever, not here.


________________

flapsforty
Member of the PPRuNe moderating team

pattern_is_full
11th Sep 2011, 19:47
Since this is a PP forum, I'd like to hear the stories from any members who were in the air and had to ground at unexpected destinations on FAA orders, or were inbound to the US and had to divert.

Don't need touchy security details - just how the events unfolded as seen from the cockpit(s).

NOT - NOT for outside publication! Just personal interest.

Could be a separate thread.
______________

Ultimately, it will take far more than 10 years to sort out the total effects of 9/11 and its aftermath.

E.G. one can connect the dots: attack - financial crash - lowered interest rates - housing/mortgage bubble - housing/mortgage crash - Great Recession. But also a hundred other intersecting global ripples.

Standard Noise
11th Sep 2011, 19:59
Our industry was changed forever ten years ago, our lives were changed forever ten years ago and our world was changed forever ten years ago.
As for the restrictions that those of us in aviation have come to endure, well, we'll get used to them regardless of whether we are happy or not.

I watched the second part of Steven Spielberg's documentary about the 9-11 memorial at the WTC and saw a fine tribute to those who lost their lives taking shape. I was also pointed, by a fellow Pruner, to a Budweiser ad (bear with me here) that I'd never known existed which was shown only once and paid a little tribute to those involved in the tragedy. I found it touching.
Budweiser 9/11 tribute commercial - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/embed/5ZIxFd5I280)

I grew up in a country torn apart by terrorism, but nothing as devastating as we witnessed on 11th September 2001. We can only pray that we never see it's like again.

con-pilot
11th Sep 2011, 20:08
One of the most interesting things in the aftermath after the attack on 9/11 was an FAA study group's finding.

As everybody know all US airspace was shut down and within a very short time period all aircraft that were airborne, were on the ground, safe. As there was no procedure to follow to accomplish this, the FAA decided to come up with such a plan if this should happen again.

After six months, I believe, with representatives from the FAA, ATC, Military, the airlines and even the NBAA and AOPA, this group came to a conclusions. There was no plan that could do as good of a job as the ATC system did that day.

So if such a terrible thing ever happens again, God forbid, ATC will do the same thing as it did on this horrible day ten years ago.

I can think of no greater complement to the United States Air Traffic Control System and our ATC controllers.

con-pilot
11th Sep 2011, 22:59
Sorry, sir, but after United 93 I think you'll find it's the other way around.

The pilots on United Flight 93 were not armed. Today, no one knows if the pilots in the cockpit of US airline flights are armed, or not.

However, do understand that the armed pilots are the last level of defense, the second to last is the airline passengers and cabin crew.

No one ever wants to go to the even the second last level of defense, let alone the last.

Not again.

con-pilot
11th Sep 2011, 23:24
Which reminds me, in my post about what a fantastic performance the US ATC and US Controllers did on that day ten years ago, I, due to a brain fart, left out the unbelievable job done by the Canadian ATC system and equally capable ATC controllers.

Can you imagine, you're a Canadian ATC controller, sitting at your radar screen or in the oceanic room, thinking about your next coffee, cigarette break and suddendly....

US AIRSPACE CLOSED UTFN. ANY AIRCRAFT ENTERING US AIRSPACE WILL BE SHOT DOWN.

Those Canadian Controllers had not just a few aircraft inbound to the US, but hundreds from both oceans and from over the Pole routes. Carrying tens of thousands of passengers and crews. Many were not in radar contract, all of them had to be diverted, all of them had to land, letting them fly around until they ran out of fuel, was not an option!

And by God they did it.

Airports all over Canada opened up, when the ramps became full, taxiways became ramps, when the taxiways filled up, the runways became ramps.

In Gander, there were more stranded airline passengers than there were inhabitants. They filled the schools, they filled private homes, drug stores stayed open 24 hours to make sure the stranded passengers had their medicines.

Words cannot express the gratitude that we in the United States owe our Canadian neighbors.

Thank you just doesn't cut it, but thank you anyway from one very grateful US citizen.

11Fan
12th Sep 2011, 00:27
but thank you anyway from one very grateful US citizen.

+307,006,550

pigboat
12th Sep 2011, 01:21
You're welcome guys. :ok:

V2-OMG!
12th Sep 2011, 02:02
Concur with pigboat.

This video is an inspiration.....

9/11 Anniversary Call for 10,000 Acts of Kindness - YouTube

I am "paying it forward" by sharing my love of vintage airplanes with the public. We will be putting the young and old into our airplanes and giving them the ride of their life!

I have been working on this project all day.

9/11 may have brought four airplanes down. But we will only fall to defeat if we let them bring us down, emotionally and spiritually. Since then, we have furiously restored three vintage biplanes to air-worthiness.

Ladies and Gentlemen, it's.............

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1942/12014112/21556821/398440990.jpg

Lonewolf_50
12th Sep 2011, 03:20
The airline industry (management) in the USA responded to 9/11, 2001, with a round of layoffs.

The US Government responded with an inane, cobbled together mess of stupidity, sold as "security" but implemented as mostly harassment.

On my return from the Mid East, on active duty, a few years after, I was "extra security screened" at two airports in the US, even though I had my orders and Active Duty ID in hand, and presented it to the drones harassing me.

From this man's point of view, the industry writ large responded to Osama Bin Laden and friends like a bunch of gutless jagovs. Governments twice so.

I have a lot of pilot friends, formerly military, who fly commercially. Their frustration with how this has all played out is as intense as mine, but from a different angle.

Cacophonix
12th Sep 2011, 13:27
The German navy also showed a great deal of respect post the hideous atrocity...

Lutgens Salute (http://www.awon.org/lutgens.html)

Dear Dad,

We are still at sea. The remainder of our port visits have all been cancelled. We have spent every day since the attacks going back and forth within imaginary boxes drawn in the ocean, standing high-security watches, and trying to make the best of it. We have seen the articles and the photographs, and they are sickening. Being isolated, I don't think we appreciate the full scope of what is happening back home, but we are definitely feeling the effects.

About two hours ago, we were hailed by a German Navy destroyer, Lutjens, requesting permission to pass close by our port side.

Strange, since we're in the middle of an empty ocean, but the captain acquiesced and we prepared to render them honors from our bridgewing.

As they were making their approach, our conning officer used binoculars and announced that Lutjens was flying not the German, but the American flag. As she came alongside us, we saw the American flag flying half-mast and her entire crew topside standing at silent, rigid attention in their dress uniforms.

http://www.awon.org/lutgens.JPG

They had made a sign that was displayed on her side that read "We Stand By You." There was not a dry eye on the bridge as they stayed alongside us for a few minutes and saluted. It was the most powerful thing I have seen in my life.

The German Navy did an incredible thing for this crew, and it has truly been the highest point in the days since the attacks. It's amazing to think that only half-century ago things were quite different. After Lutjens pulled away, the Officer of the Deck, who had been planning to get out later this year, turned to me and said, "I'm staying Navy."

I'll write you when I know more about when I'll be home, but this is it for now.

Love you guys.

Caco

V2-OMG!
12th Sep 2011, 16:02
I will always have a soft spot for Gander thanks to the way the whole city stepped up to accommodate the diverted aircraft and then the thousands of stranded passengers.

I imagine there are other similar stories of which I am not aware, but I know that Gander showed heartwarming hospitality to a degree one would think impossible to muster in today's world. They had our back on 9/11 and the aftermath.

Continued gratitude, Gander!

BandAide, this Canadian will always help an American because I have been privy to the depth of American gratitude. This has not always been the case with other nationalities, I'm afraid.

I was exposed to this early. When I was a child, my parents helped a family from Los Angeles who could not find a motel room. The Jehovah's Witnesses had booked every hotel/motel room for their convention. My dad brought them home after meeting them at a gas station. My mother and I prepared a late-night snack for our unexpected guests, then made-up beds for them in our truck camper which was parked in the back. In the morning our American guests were gone. But that Christmas, a special gift was delivered to us from Los Angeles; the biggest box of See's Chocolates. I had never seen such huge chocolates. Boy, were they good! But more importantly, it taught me not to "bash" others, solely based upon the biases of others.

Anyway, as you wrote, there are millions of like stories floating around out there; we will never know most of them. However, we all benefit from that collective good when those who are privy to those individual acts of kindness "pay it foward."

Lonewolf_50
12th Sep 2011, 17:02
Lutgens: awesome.

I was in the US Navy at the time (but west coast Navy). This is the first I'd heard of how our brother mariners showed their quality on the high seas.

Wish this had gotten around sooner. As it is, I am deeply grateful for the heart of our German allies.

Danke schön! :ok:

TBirdFrank
12th Sep 2011, 18:03
We were half way across the Atlantic when 9/11 occurred - on the S S Norway. We had embarked around 600 New Yorkers for what was to be her last Atlantic crossing and the last ever true liner crossing as she was, of course, the former S S France.

This is us departing the Hudson on September 5th 2001 and Mrs TBF, youngest daughter, and I are on the top deck forward looking over the bridge and bow.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTtSzL-XjUnPX6Vu9kB0FYIPviLSW3m3mETa-c4wX1J698ZbBIb

We were the last ship to depart NYC before the attack and the steps taken to accommodate the needs of all our passengers were immense on that fateful day, as we could not turn back for security reasons, thus becoming the first piece of hardware to arrive in Britain - and I accidentally became the first person to step onto Scottish soil at Greenock in a hurry to collect a hire car and take a group from Massachusetts on a tour of the West Highlands.

Our passengers were amazed as we came to a stand near Faslane as the clock neared eleven a.m. the time set for a national period of silence in acts of remembrance all over Britain that day, as a military convoy also pulled up and its members dismounted and stood silently with us. This simple act of solidarity was something our guests had not expected in a country beyond their shores and it spoke volumes to us and to them.

Bruce took a larger contingent to see Glasgow, where the departures board at Central Station was displaying a statement of sympathy with the USA, and they also attended a gathering at George Square that morning - where the people of the city were amazed to find New yorkers amongst their midst, and the same sense of mutual commonality was also shared.

Where did we lose that common bond? or was it always ephemeral - as indicated by the Dublin taxi driver the following day who to my utter shock and disgust commented "xxxx 'em - they kill more kids than that in their abortion labs everyday!"

MagnusP
13th Sep 2011, 08:55
There was an interesting opinion piece in The Times on the 8th of September by Jonathan Sacks, Chief Rabbi of the United Hebrew Congregations of the Commonwealth (I have the newspaper; online, I think it's behind a paywall).

He postulates that the roots of the attack go back to 1989, with the withdrawal of the Soviet Union from Afghanistan in the face of determined resistance from a small group of highly motivated religious warriors. If the Soviets were vulnerable to asymmetric warfare, then why not the US? Bin Laden saw the opportunity to demotivate and demoralise the west, and to make a statement regarding radical Islamist supremacy.

I stand in awe of the resilience of America and Americans. I believe much is to do with the strength of allegiance to the flag, and to what had always been strong moral authority. The latter has waned in the past decade or so, a matter of considerable regret to me. I would like to see that restored, not just in the USA, but in all western nations. Ladies and Gentlemen of America, I salute you.

On a lighter note, a friend was visiting the towers exactly a year before the attacks. On the observation floor, he was horrified to hear an American woman complain to her husband that she couldn't see Alcatraz. :ugh:

Blacksheep
13th Sep 2011, 12:32
There will always be people that hate and despise you for what they think you are, what they think you stand for, what they want to blame you for. A comment that cuts both ways.

The people who stand on each side of the divide are all human beings - wherever and whenever the divide may be.

DX Wombat
16th Sep 2011, 20:42
CP, over this side of The Pond, Oceanic did their best to cope with all those aircraft turned back to the UK, not only from the UK but also from other parts of Europe. Airports were crowded with landing aircraft and still the routine flights to the rest of the world departed as usual. It was a day of thoughtful, competent, caring cooperation.

con-pilot
16th Sep 2011, 20:57
CP, over this side of The Pond, Oceanic did their best to cope with all those aircraft turned back to the UK, not only from the UK but also from other parts of Europe. Airports were crowded with landing aircraft and still the routine flights to the rest of the world departed as usual. It was a day of thoughtful, competent, caring cooperation.

You on your side of the Atlantic did a unbelievably outstanding job as well. It must have been a nightmare turning all those aircraft around in a non-radar environment, mid-Atlantic. A tape of what occurred in Shanwick Center that day would be very interesting to watch.

Thanks to all of the fantastic Air Traffic Controllers in all the counties involved, including Mexico.

DX Wombat
16th Sep 2011, 21:34
CP, I wish the same level of care and cooperation could happen every day in all places and situations. It is so sad that such terrible events have to happen to awaken the good side of some people and unite them in the realisation that we are all human beings.

james ozzie
17th Sep 2011, 04:33
At the time and more so 10 years later, I really do not like seeing endless replays of the impacts and the towers dropping - thousands of terrified people dying in those moments and yet the gratuitous violence of it is endlessly replayed to fill in air-time for TV programmers. Worse still are the scenes of people jumping.

And every time the scene is replayed, we are handing the perpetrators a bonus to their undoubted victory on that day. They must be thinking "9/11 - the gift that keeps on giving".

Surely, out of respect to the dead and their families, the media should have a self imposed moratorium on this material? And we should stop "giving oxygen" to the scum who supported the attack.

(Sorry, OP, to an extent I am fingering you too for including that picture! Not meaning to have go at you)

Hell Man
17th Sep 2011, 14:54
(Sorry, OP, to an extent I am fingering you too for including that picture! Not meaning to have go at you)

No sweat. Strangely I've only once seen a replay of the event since the days surrounding 9/11 (guess I've been lucky) but still the image evokes passion - sorry if it has caused offence.

I read recently that a plot had been uncovered by "white supremacists" to effect a reprisal bombing on the tower in Dubai but that they had now decided to wait until an apparently new (even taller) tower is constructed in Saudi Arabia. Such actions can never help international relations and I really wonder what the end of all this will be.

It seems to me that the gulf between the West and the Middle East and between Christians and Muslims is growing - but I could (and hope to be) wrong.

Matari
17th Sep 2011, 21:08
...and how quickly the guidance is forgotten:

Show some respect people.
If that is beyond you, just do not post.
Not today.
On this subject, not ever, not here.

beaufort1
19th Sep 2011, 07:34
I see from reading this thread that Gander has been mentioned a few times. I can remember reading this book (see link below) 'The Day the World came to Town' a few years ago and found it a good read. It's basically an account with human interest of how the airfield and town coped with accommodating 38 wide bodied jets diverted due to the closure of American airspace.

http://www.harpercollins.com/books/Day-World-Came-Town-Jim-Defede/?isbn=9780060559717