Man dies after yobs stop air ambulance landing

[Heliport]

The Wiltshire Air Ambulance was stopped from taking a dying man to hospotal last night after laser pens were shone at the pilot as he tried to land.

The man later died on the way to hospital in a road ambulance.

The pens were shone at the air ambulance as it tried to land in Calne, responding to calls of a man dying of a heart attack.

The helicopter had landed but took off again to burn off some fuel to carry the man to hospital. But, as it tried to re-land near King Edward Close, the pilot was faced with yobs shining laser pens and was forced to abandon.

The man was taken to Great Western Hospital, in Swindon, by road ambulance but is believed to have died before they arrived.

Police are now investigating the incident, anyone with information should call (0845) 4087000.



Man dies after yobs stop air ambulance landing (http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/towns/calneheadlines/9242814.Man_dies_after_yobs_stop_air_ambulance_landing_in_Ca lne/)

BBC News - Laser 'shone at Wiltshire Air Ambulance' in Calne (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-14853640)


H.

[chopjock]

Criminals / yobs etc obviously consider a police helicopter as fair game, especially if it comes down to land where it is vulnerable. Is it wise to have an air ambulance doing police work or vice versa?

[AlpineSkier]

A ridiculous sentiment i know, but how i wish it were possible to fire 50 calibre/20 down the recpirocal of lasers
.

[VeeAny]

That is disgusting.

[pasptoo]

Outrageous, if caught I hope they get charged with Man Slaughter.

[chopjock]

The pilot had landed previously, but took off again to burn off fuel :confused:, whilst a man laid there dying. Surely with a life threatening situation like that the pilot could have acted differently to expedite this man to hospital?

[Helinut]

It sounds like a sad indictment of modern yoof certainly. The Wiltshire helicopter (in my limited historical experience) was known more for it being a HEMS than a police heli amongst the locals, and had a very positive image and a lot of local support.

Just be a bit careful about the "facts" reported by the media though. The details do not sound quite right to me.

[ShyTorque]

The pilot had landed previously, but took off again to burn off fuel , whilst a man laid there dying. Surely with a life threatening situation like that the pilot could have acted differently to expedite this man to hospital?


I'm sure your expert advice would be welcomed.

[Torquetalk]

As maddening as some of these issues genuinely are, it really doesn't help to turn pprune into something that begins to read like the Daily Rail:

The story quoted doesn't add up and is clearly from a sensationlist rag/local online boulevard tabloid that doesn't even take the time to do a spell check (it misspelt hospital for heaven's sake!); the police were quoted (by the BBC) as being initially satisfied that the laser incident and man's death were unrelated.

[fly911]

A ridiculous sentiment i know, but how i wish it were possible to fire 50 calibre/20 down the recpirocal of l@sers

Well, maybe a taser.

[J.A.F.O.]

Something that uses laser target designation would be good.

[Capetonian]

Calling these people 'yobs' is rather describing a famine as 'a situation in which a few people might not always eat a full meal three times a day.'

They are murdering scum and should be permanently elimated from society. It is a pity that the softly softly approach does not allow for this, and if they are caught they will probably end up going to a correctional institute where they will sit and watch daytime TV on widescreen TVs whilst food is brought to them on trays.

[chopjock]

They are murdering scum and should be permanently elimated from societyThat's a little harsh I think. Yobs are more likely to be rebellious and perhaps did not think this was an air ambulance operating at night. To them it would more likely appear to be a police helicopter (flir on the nose) and so an opportunity to get their own back.
Murderers? I don't think so.

[ShyTorque]

Chopjock, so with reference to your previous implied criticism of the pilot, what could he have done differently?

[chopjock]

what could he have done differently?Erm, don't know I wasn't there. But surmising if he had infact previously landed then took off again to burn off excess fuel, I think perhaps throwing out a crew member and some equipment to lighten the load might have been an option. (On the ground that is):)
If he didn't previously land, perhaps risk red lining the torque gauges for a few seconds more in order to save a life? Hell if I wanted to save a life whilst landing and someone shone a laser at me I would perhaps look the other way and pedel the nose around so the light was coming from behind me?
Who knows, a man's life was at stake here. Cutting and running was one option though I suppose.

[ShyTorque]

Chopjock, bear in mind that many cases involving air ambulances are life and death situations. How many times a day do you expect the pilot to "redline the torque gauges" or fly overweight?

[chopjock]

If he plans his flight correctly, rarely. Do they always take off with full fuel and crew and all that police equipment?

[XV666]

chop jock: it was an Air Ambulance on Air Ambulance ops, even if it is multi tasked at times. The Wiltshire Police (http://www.wiltshire.police.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3272&catid=43:news&Itemid=50) made the following statement, which differs enough from the media report as to be worth considering before you make any more wild assumptions:

Shortly after midnight on 8th September 2011, the Wiltshire Air Ambulance was responding to requests from ambulance crews on the ground in Calne who were dealing with a patient suffering chest problems.

Whilst over the location it was forced to abort a landing and police are currently investigating the circumstances surrounding this as there is evidence to suggest that a laser pen was being directed at the aircraft.

The casualty, who had been receiving treatment from paramedics for considerable time was instead transported to GWH in Swindon by land ambulance but was pronounced dead on arrival.

At this stage we are satisfied that the helicopter not being able to land did not affect the outcome of this incident.

Endangering an aircraft is a very serious offence and any incident where lasers or bright lights are shone deliberately could have catastrophic consequences for the aircraft crew and those on the ground

Shining a laser pen at an aircraft can potentially distract or block the pilot’s view from the cockpit – and this is why it is so dangerous and foolish

Laser pens do work both ways though – the air crew can identify where a laser has come from - and we have provided information to officers who are now conducting a criminal investigation into the circumstances surrounding this incident

[Torquetalk]

Tbh Heliport, I don't know why you started this thread. There is already a thread on lasers and helicopters. You set out to imply that the man's death was caused by the yobs stopping the helicopter landing, but apart from the selective use of a crappy source there doesn't seem to be much evidence at this stage for that.

If you wanted to up the ante and give a forum to people to air their outrage over an (up to now) fictional correlation, you have succeeded. But I though Jet Blast was for that.

I'm taking the bait because Britain has just had another round of riots (third lot in the last three decades). I just don't see the value in giving a platform here for talking bollocks about something which is clearly very serious.

Capetonian, I'm afraid I mean contributors like you. Imodium is good for controlling bodily diarrhea. Intellectual and emotional incontinence is harder to treat, but thinking things through and knowing at least a little about what your talking about helps. Before repeating a popular mantra of how cushy gaol is, spend some time in a few of them. Only people who have little or no experience of prison think it's cushy. I am afraid you are typing through your butt.

Is this Professional Pilots Rumour Network or some place to sound off about a half-cock story?

[OvertHawk]

Chopjock.

It is not uncommon for an air ambulance to land and drop off it's paramedics (to start assessing and treating the casualty, secure him in the stretcher etc) then depart again for various reasons e.g to land in a place better suited to loading the stretcher or, as in this case, burn off some fuel.

Air Ambulances tend to standby with a pre-decided fuel load based on what they might reasonably expect to have to do - therefore, if they get a job that is a close to base, thus burning less fuel to get there, they might end up a little over and have to burn a bit off.

As for "red-lining it a bit" to get the job done - that's not the way it should work - as another poster said - every flight is potentially life-saving so what would happen if they did that every time?

As for dropping a paramedic or some equipment - who looks after the patient in flight and what happens on the next job after they've dropped this patient if one of their paramedics and half their kit is in a field miles away?

Hope that information is useful to you.
OH

[Capetonian]

Chopjock :

I called them murdering scum and you said :

That's a little harsh I think. Yobs are more likely to be rebellious and perhaps did not think this was an air ambulance operating at night. To them it would more likely appear to be a police helicopter (flir on the nose) and so an opportunity to get their own back.
Murderers? I don't think so.

You might think it's a little harsh but I don't. I take it that in the world you inhabit it's OK to shine lasers at a police helicopter and risk the lives of the occupants and people on the ground?

Torquetalk :

Capetonian, I'm afraid I mean contributors like you. .......... Intellectual and emotional incontinence is harder to treat, but ...........knowing at least a little about what your talking about helps. Before repeating a popular mantra of how cushy gaol is, spend some time in a few of them. Only people who have little or no experience of prison think it's cushy. I am afraid you are typing through your butt.
Wrong. I have seen - first hand - the conditions at some so-called prisons in the UK, not as a prisoner by the way, and bearing in mind the 'homes' they come from, prison is a luxury holiday for them.

[Helinut]

I would suggest the Wiltshire Police version of events was more likely to be connected to reality than the local rag.

The two versions are radically different.

[Torquetalk]

Well, Capetonian, I guess you are living proof that you could send an a badly informed astronaut to the moon and they would still come back thinking it was made of cheese.

I have been inside many jails in many places, and suspect have a much more intimate knowledge of both those environments and their guests than you. That you make the correct point that some prisoners come from enviroments which are worse than the ones they find themselves in during custody, but imply that the prison environment should be made WORSE to to act as a deterrent is breathtaking in its stupidity.

Your lay opinion of the issues flies in the face of reality: Sweden, for example, has rather good conditions for prisoners when compared to the UK. It also has much lower levels of offending and recidivism. No particular conclusion can be drawn from this other than that awful prison conditions (which abound in UK prisons) are not only manifeslty counter-productive with respect to effective rehabilitation, there is also no demonstrable or believable case for them serving the purpose of deterrence.

And not wishing to hijack Chopjock's discussion with you, but let's be clear about a couple of things here: NO-ONE has been killed as a result of a laser being pointed in the crews' eyes. So there cannot be any killers. And even if there were; they would only be murderers if they deliberately set out to kill someone. That is murder. Otherwise they would be charged with manslaughter. Chopjock is right and you are talking rubbish.

[Capetonian]

There is less crime and reoffending in Sweden because, unlike the UK, there has not been a total breakdown in morals and family values. Also, although Sweden has more than its fair share of immigrants from the third world, it applies a selective policy and tends to accept more educated people who will integrate, and are encouraged to do so, not the dross who are allowed into the UK, live in ghettos, and are the cause of a lot of crime.

I can't comment on your superior experience of the prison environment as I have no idea what it is, but then you have no idea of mine. My comment is based on what I've seen. I subscribe to the theory that prison should be punishment, and that the kid gloves approach and rehabilitation usually do not work on hardened criminals. But then I also believe in the death penalty for violent repeat criminals and you probably don't.

You and chopjock are correct about my inappropriate use of the word 'murderers'. That does not detract from the contention that deliberately endangering the lives of aircrew is a serious offence and should be treated accordingly. I hope it will be.

[Heliport]

TTTbh Heliport, I don't know why you started this thread.Because I considered the news item deserved a thread of its own. ie Because it was an air ambulance.
I'm sure the Mod will merge it into the main thread on l@sers and helicopters if/when he feels it appropriate.
You set out to imply that the man's death was caused by the yobs stopping the helicopter landing, but apart from the selective use of a crappy source there doesn't seem to be much evidence at this stage for that. Did I?
I used the Wiltshire Gazette and Herald headline as my thread title; I would do so again. I also posted a link to the BBC news item. I have no reason to believe the Wiltshire Gazette and Herald is a “crappy source”. Perhaps you'd prefer the Daily Mirror: Dying man's 999 helicopter forced to abort landing because of lasers - mirror.co.uk (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/09/10/dying-man-s-999-helicopter-forced-to-abort-landing-because-of-lasers-115875-23409118/)

Whether the patient died as a result is not the point. The point is that yobs shone lasers at an air ambulance. The patient may well have died anyway, but they didn't know nor care.

I just don't see the value in giving a platform here for talking bollocks about something which is clearly very serious. ‘Bollocks’ in your opinion.

Only people who have little or no experience of prison think it's cushy. That is simply not correct.

(To) imply that the prison environment should be made WORSE to to act as a deterrent is breathtaking in its stupidity. That assertion is breathtaking in its arrogance. It also ignores the fact that informed opinion is, and has been for many years, divided on the issue.

You refer to Capetonian’s “lay opinion”. On what basis are your own opinions more than “lay”?
You say you have been inside many jails in many places. In what capacity?

In a previous thread Yobs throw rocks at air ambulance (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/231877-yobs-throw-rocks-air-ambulance.html) you said: “Surely this is more than a case of some youths with bad attitudes, and much more to do with endemic poverty and alienated social groups.”
Is it your belief that people who point lasers at helicopters (air ambulance or other) necessarily fall into either or both of those groups?


H.

[Capetonian]

Could this thread be merged with :

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/463232-evil-bas-s.html#post6694319

[dakkg651]

Having read a few of these 'yobs do unimaginable things' threads, I am always amused as the resident huggy fluffies jump to the defence of the poor underprivileged little darlings.

I was also amused at the inference that the tragic misunderstood young perpetrator had mis-identified the aircraft as a police helicopter and that this made his actions excusable.

There is no excuse for commiting a criminal offence and this 'person', if caught, should feel the full force of the law.

Unfortunately, and this is where I understand Capetonian's frustration, the full force of the law in this case would probably be a gentle slap on the wrist which sends out the signal to other yobs that this sort of behaviour is ok. I hope whoever it was that said no accident has ever occured because of shining a laser into a pilot's eyes, does not come back to haunt you. Having seen the effect of a green laser on NVGs whilst low level, I personally think a serious accident is only a matter of time.

[Senior Pilot]

Could this thread be merged with :

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/463232-evil-bas-s.html#post6694319

There is no need to do so: no.

[hellsbrink]

That's a little harsh I think. Yobs are more likely to be rebellious and perhaps did not think this was an air ambulance operating at night. To them it would more likely appear to be a police helicopter (flir on the nose) and so an opportunity to get their own back.

Murderers? I don't think so.


Huh? It's ok to shine lasers at any aircraft as long as it isn't an Air Ambulance?

[Al Fakhem]

It's time rescue choppers carried air-to-surface missiles. Pure self-defence, of course, to pacify the readers of the Grauniad.

[Capetonian]

To them it would more likely appear to be a police helicopter ........ and so an opportunity to get their own back

I find the mentality underlying this statement utterly horrific.

[Torquetalk]

In for a penny…

Perhaps you'd prefer the Daily Mirror

Well no actually, I wouldn’t. That would be swapping one crappy source for another. And unless, I wanted to get worked up about half a story that would be foolish. You may find the Wiltshire Gazette and Herald an eminent journalistic source, but I think the presentation of the article and the fact that they didn’t even spell hospital right suggest that it’s a rag.

You refer to Capetonian’s “lay opinion”. On what basis are your own opinions more than “lay”?
You say you have been inside many jails in many places. In what capacity?

My experience of prisons comes from working for the Home Office and (in a separate capacity) as a prison visitor. UK and elsewhere (Sweden and Turkey as examples of different ends of a spectrum of conditions).

informed opinion is, and has been for many years, divided on the issue

No it isn’t. Popular opinion is largely undivided in thinking that prison sentences are too short and that prison isn’t hard enough. Informed opinion is largely unanimous in the opinion that the length of prison sentence has little or no bearing on either the intent to commit crime or recidivism rates; that body of opinion is also unanimous in recognising a positive relationship between better prison conditions and lower rates of recidivism. You don’t have to like that, but it isn’t an arguable point.

As to arrogance, ask yourself this: If you saw that prison conditions were better than the environments in which people were committing offences, would you not draw the conclusion that something was amiss with those environments? To draw the opposite conclusion: i.e. that prison should be the locus of change would be stupid.

In a previous thread ‘Yobs throw rocks at air ambulance’ you said: “Surely this is more than a case of some youths with bad attitudes, and much more to do with endemic poverty and alienated social groups.”
Is it your belief that people who point lasers at helicopters (air ambulance or other) necessarily fall into either or both of those groups?

Let’s me be clear about what I think so you don’t have to speculate. In direct answer to your question: Not Necessarily, no; but I stand by the opinion as stated, as, quite frankly, I think it is a statement of the bleedin’ obvious. But of course I don’t disagree with the opinion that the laser-pointing scroats should be punished to the full extent of the law. Of course they should. And I really like the idea of reciprocal tasering of perpetrators.

Seriously though, do you really think there is any real prospect of change with regard to these kinds of offences given current social policy with top caliber leaders like:
David “love a hoody” Cameron (sorry, which planet are you from again?)
Gordon “make the UK the best country in the world for children” (same planet as the other fella I guess)
Tony “it was the ‘60s wot dun it” Blair (Germany and Sweden survived the ‘60s – very well in fact)

As Chirg says in No country For Old Men “If the plan was what brought you here, what use was the plan?”

Final post.

[SilsoeSid]

To them it would more likely appear to be a police helicopter ........ and so an opportunity to get their own back

I find the mentality underlying this statement utterly horrific.

Yet possibly true !

[Heliport]

TT Final post.

Fine. I'm content to agree to differ.

BTW, in order to avoid any misunderstanding, I don't share Capetonian's extreme views.
(Or yours. ;) )

H.

[hands_on123]

deja vu

all discussed before in 2006

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/231877-yobs-throw-rocks-air-ambulance.html

[SilsoeSid]

Next will be the case where the Crew/MRT Fire & Rescue get the patient to where the helicopter landed, only to find it's not there anymore !

Police are accusing a teenager of trying to steal a medical helicopter shortly after it landed at Citizens Baptist Medical Center.

Talladega police Capt. of Investigations Ronnie Jones tells The Daily Home newspaper (The Daily Home - Teen tries to steal LifeSaver (http://bit.ly/q9b9ZX)) that police arrested the 16-year-old.

An officer assigned to guard the chopper while the crew was inside the hospital getting a patient told police the teen approached the aircraft, opened the door and started to get in.

Authorities say the officer detained the teen before he was could sit down in the LifeSaver helicopter.

Police said the officer asked the teenager what he was doing, and he smiled and said that he had taken flying lessons at Zora Ellis Junior High School.
Police say teen tried to steal hospital helicopter - Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/news/article/Police-say-teen-tried-to-steal-hospital-helicopter-2168025.php)


Flying lessons! Was that a Year 9 option ?

[foxmead]

Hmm, interesting comments. I for one favour zero tolerence approach so that we begin to instill within our society that there will be severe consequeces for such life threatening behaviour, what would have happened IF the pilot lost control and crashed!!!!!

Our ambulance & fire crews seem to be fair game for these mindless boneheads. Lets hope the next Chief Constable is not afraid of the Human Rights brigade. Would be interesting to hear what the view is from the States, New York underwent a major clear up of crime, whereby it was not that long ago that tourists would not venture into certain parts of the City.

[Sewing Machine Man]

Ummm. (Holds Hand up). Why for did he land and take off again to burn off fuel. Was he over weight or was it a C of G issue?

Something not quite right about that.

Non pilot by the way.:confused:

[Senior Pilot]

Ummm. (Holds Hand up). Why for did he land and take off again to burn off fuel. Was he over weight or was it a C of G issue?

Something not quite right about that.

Non pilot by the way.:confused:

There are previous posts which point to the Wiltshire Police statement, which does not verify the newspaper report that the pilot took off to burn off fuel: did you read it?

Nonetheless, to answer your query about why he may need to burn off fuel, it would have been a weight issue when picking up casualty and medical crew had it been needed.