Libyan Manpads Go Missing

[ORAC]

Independent: Hundreds of missiles go missing from regime's abandoned arms dumps (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/hundreds-of-missiles-go-missing-from-regimes-abandoned-arms-dumps-2351028.html)

As rebels take over, fears rise that huge arsenal may have fallen into the hands of terrorists

The long metal crates strewn on the grounds of the warehouse were empty. Hundreds of surface-to-air missiles, craved by terrorist groups and "rogue states", had disappeared in the past few days, looted from one of Libya's overflowing arms dumps.

Among the missiles taken away were 480 Russian-built SA-24s, designed for use against modern warplanes, which the US had been attempting to block from falling into Iranian hands, and the older SA-7s and 9s, capable of bringing down commercial airliners, which al-Qa'ida has been striving to obtain.

As Libya's bloody civil war reaches its conclusion, myriad bunkers and barracks containing the regime's weaponry, from Kalashnikovs to missiles, armoured cars and tanks, have been left unguarded, many to be stripped bare by militia fighters and the public.

The numbers involved are far larger than the caches that armed the insurgencies in Iraq and Afghanistan. And in Libya there are even fewer guards at these sites. Unlike those two fronts of the "war on terror", there are no foreign troops present in Libya, and the opposition forming the new government has its resources tied up attempting to subdue the remaining loyalist strongholds and repairing infrastructure to safeguard the arsenals.

The ransacking of the depots containing missiles has set alarms ringing among security agencies in America and Europe. The SA-24 "Grinch" surface-to-air missile targets fighter-bombers, helicopter gunships such as Apaches, and even Cruise missiles, and can strike at as high as 11,000ft. Washington had lobbied the Russians to block sales to Hugo Chavez in Venezuela and to Tehran. The SA-7s and 9s are older but can destroy civilian jets or be used against military targets such as the drones increasingly employed by the US.

Peter Bouckaert, emergencies director for Human Rights Watch, charting the arms depots, said: "The problem is pretty huge. There are around 20,000 surface-to-air missiles in Libya and a hell of a lot of them are missing. The Western agencies are obviously pretty concerned. This lot can turn the whole of North Africa into a no-fly zone."....................

[Grimweasel]

Worrying indeed - but we should have had this down as a campaign objective if the stocks of these things were known. It's a hornet's nest of our own making. You can bet that foreign agents were inside Libya as soon as these ammo dumps were exposed. Phalanx deployed to Heathrow anyone???

[SCAFITE]

Bit of a bugger is this one, good news no Weapons of Mass Destruction in Libya but, bad news every johnny running around with a Surface to Air Sytem and some may not be nice folk.

[Melchett01]

Bit of a bugger is a bit of an understatement, but it's not like we rushed into this without thinking it through, so I can't understand how we might have got in to this situation.

That said, and before anyone else has a go at the Independent for sloppy journalism, the SA-9 isn't a MANPADs - it's mounted in 4 launch tubes on the back of a BRDM-2 if memory serves and is quite an early generation system. So all in all not so much of a problem if all they have is the missiles and not the rest of the kit to use them. The 24 on the other hand, now that's what I would be worried about, especially if Gadhaffi bought them as MANDPADS rather than vehicle mounted systems :uhoh:

[500N]

Not good at all.

I thought the US was keeping a whole load of sites under observation or was that only the known Chemical weapons and other weapons ?

.

[jamesdevice]

"good news no Weapons of Mass Destruction in Libya"


you sure about that? Where did all the chemicals go?

[Spurlash2]

They would appear not to have the gripstock. Link HERE (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post:e6d7cd5f-8bef-4f72-a64f-c98fdf99a7a0).

More info HERE (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3aabcd011c-bc5d-4b32-a87b-3f60b4e42e8c&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest).

Link HERE (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/weapons/where-are-libyas-anti-aircraft-missiles-5557406) to the gripstock bit in Para 6.

[TEEEJ]

SCAFITE wrote

Bit of a bugger is this one, good news no Weapons of Mass Destruction in Libya but,...

Libya at the start of the conflict still had a stockpile of Mustard Gas awaiting disposal. The Libyans got an extension for disposal. This was obviously interupted by the conflict.

OPCW Director-General Meets Permanent Representative of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya (http://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-director-general-meets-permanent-representative-of-the-libyan-arab-jamahiriya/)

OPCW Director-General Meets Permanent Representative of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya

Friday, 11 March 2011

The OPCW Director-General, Ambassador Ahmet Üzümcü, today asked the Permanent Representative of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya to call on him at the OPCW Headquarters. The Director-General expressed the concerns of States Parties regarding the status of those chemical weapons possessed by Libya that remain to be destroyed, pursuant to its obligations under the Chemical Weapons Convention. He recalled that the responsibility for the physical security of those chemical weapons belongs entirely to Libya, and asked that every possible measure be taken to prevent their possible use.

The Permanent Representative reiterated to the Director-General the Libyan commitment to the implementation of the Convention, and that in accordance with the information he has received from Tripoli, the situation regarding the chemical weapons to be destroyed remains unchanged and under control.

Libya's WMD Stockpiles Are Secure: Pentagon - Defense News (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=7471639)

TJ

[rh200]

Libya at the start of the conflict still had a stockpile of Mustard Gas awaiting disposal. The Libyans got an extension for disposal. This was obviously interupted by the conflict.

And that's presuming he owned up to every thing he actually had in the first place, who here doesn't like to put a little aside for a rainy day.

[Trim Stab]

WMD was never a priority for Ghadaffi. Libya had a small and not very advanced chemical weapons programme until about the mid 90s. He ended that programme when UK & France rebuilt diplomatic & security relations and put in place trade-incentives.

Any chemical weapons discovered would be leftovers from that defunct programme, and were probably declared previously anyway. It would be very surprising if the Libyans had desired or managed to keep an active programme secret.

In any case, mustard gas can barely be classified as WMD. There are many "conventional" weapons that are far more destructive.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Won't take the brains of an archbishop to rig up an alternate firing system, and just one MANPAD SA-24 would make said task a doddle.

[GreenKnight121]

In any case, mustard gas can barely be classified as WMD.

You have never read much about WW1, nor have any relatives who served in France in 1914-1918, then, have you?

[phil9560]

The men in WW1 were certainly up against it.

But in the context of modern warfare mustard gas isn't a WMD .

[500N]

The stocks were well known about and a couple of times the US said they were keeping a visual on them.

[Dan Winterland]

Soon to be making a re-appearance on 11/09/11.

[Father Jack Hackett]

Mustard gas is a chemical weapon and, by current definition, very much a WMD.

Still, much more concerned (ie scared sh!teless) about losing track of a shed-load of SA-24s.

[jamesdevice]

lets just say when I discovered a supply route for 2-Chloroethanol and 1,1'-Dithiodiethanol into a middle east country in 1984, all **** hit the fan. I've never seen politicians move so fast. An Order in Council banning certain selected exports within two days of the report. A similar European Union order two days later.
The authorities were worried then about mustard, and they should still be worried

[phil9560]

Father Jack-my remark wasn't intended to sound quite as glib as it did so I stand corrected:)

But when I think of WMD I tend to instinctively think Nuclear.If it had to be either in Central London Mustard Gas has to be the lesser of the two evils.

[barnstormer1968]

500N

Please check your PM's

[RileyDove]

Pity the various weapons targeted at Gaddafi couldnt have been aimed at one of his arms dumps containing the missiles! Seems simple to me!

[Trim Stab]

Mustard gas may have been historically grouped into the classification of "WMD" because of its strategic effect in WW1, but as somebody else points out, in today's context, it is a merely a rather unreliable, short-range and easily countered local tactical weapon.

It remains classified as a "WMD" partly because of the historical context, but also because it is cheap & nasty, & would allow poorer nations to gain some sort of tactical battlefield parity with wealthier nations that control the UN and invest huge sums in developing high-technology battlefield weapons.

[A and C]

With all this talk of MANPADS going missing I have reviewed my personal safety and have come to the conclusion that the average airline pilot is far more likely to be killed by a baggage cart while doing the walk round than by a stolen MANPAD.