Using an IPad in place of DAPs??

[Windshear_ahead]

Hi All.

Does anyone know where CASA stands on using an IPad in flight to display procedure charts, maps, ersa etc?

As its all fairly new still, are there any rules saying they can/cannot be used in flight in place of the paper DAPs? Obviously the paper copy needs to be in the plane, within the pilots reach etc. Although I have heard rumours said that if you have a back up device such as an iphone that this is sufficient. :confused:

I had a look at a work mates Ipad in flight the other day... fantastic with the position plotted on the ERC chart etc. Being so easy to access ALL maps, plates and ersa entries so quickly, without going through folders and the flight bag. I can see how this could be the way of the future for documents in flight.

[Robdog]

Not sure what it is like for IFR, but I had a chat to the CASA guys at the Wide Bay Airshow a couple of weeks ago regarding it's use in VFR ops; and this is what they said:

We deem it sufficient to have all your weather and NOTAM's stored on there (no paper copies needed). They have no issue using it for charts and navigation, DAPS etc as long as you have redundancies in the aircraft (ie. printed the paper copies of the ERSA entries etc before you leave. Which can be done from the iPad). Also you must not be solely relying on it as a navigation source.

Off the record the bloke (an ex-CFI) said that he personally sees them as far safer and more efficient in light aircraft. Especially single-pilot operations; for the reason you stated... no fumbling through bags etc. He also said that at night they are wonderful as they are backlit, eliminating they use of a blinding torch trying to read a chart.

He said that CASA is working on officially clarifying the issue currently.

Hope this helps.

Rob.

[Icarus2001]

He said that CASA is working on officially clarifying the issue currently.

In other news...CASA are also rewriting the CAR and also working on FMRS!

[Jabawocky]

I can assure you the OzRunways and Jepp Mobile is awesome for VFR and IFR single pilot ops.

I am seriously looking at ditching paper jepps and going for the chart supplement and printing just what i need to be legal, and my backup is an iphone version of it all, if I need something not printed, and the ipad fails.

My plane partner who is senior enough :E to qualify as "old school" has seen my ipad system in place........and he is itching to ditch the paper too! We are just wondering should we keep one set of Paper Jepps between us. Or none!

[Robdog]

And to add to Jaba,

I am still training, and am using the Oz Runways app more and more, most of my istructors (even the 'old school' ones) have sinces invested in an iPad and are more than happy to use it in the cockpit. I know someone who did their entire MEICR without opening a paper copy of a CASA publications (excluding the exam) or a paper Jepp product. The only time I open them now is exams and flight tests (have to prove you know what paper is).

Rob.

[Howard Hughes]

In other news...CASA are also rewriting the CAR and also working on FMRS!
Whose Mrs?:}

[Jabawocky]

.............and how long now for a rewrite of the regs? 20+ years :rolleyes:

[havick]

I'm looking at getting an ipad.

Currently running paper charts (Jepps).

Is it only the IAL charts you can view electronically on the ipad (I know you can get Jepps text viewer on a pc) or can you get the pc equivaleny og jepps text viewer as well?

[Capn Bloggs]

Until Jepp puts change bars on the Airway Manual text section (PDF), it is as useful as an ashtray mounted on jabba's wingtip.

At least the electronic AIP has change bars.

Oz Runways by comparison to Jepp looks pretty damn good. Never did like Jepp approach charts... In fact, I never have liked Jepp! The only thing Jepp has going for it is thin paper.

CASA, what's the go?

[CHAIRMAN]

Until Jepp puts change bars on the Airway Manual text section (PDF), it is as useful as an ashtray mounted on jabba's wingtip.

About the only thing missing on Jabbas Retard Vehicle.:D

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Two Dads actually told me that CASA is producing a CAAP on the topic. For PVT and AWK, the choice is yours, however the documents (ie maps) cannot be amended in their electronic form. Once they actually amend the charts in line with the AIP SUPs, this could actually alleviate the problem of so many people not being aware of WAC amendments.

SUP H94/10 for those of you who haven't been told about them. Have a read.

You cannot mark a track or record position fixes on an electronic document and the GPS function on an IPad is DEFINITELY NOT to be used as primary navigation.

Be warned: If an ops manual states you must carry charts and maps, electronic form may not satisfy this requirement. You are bound by the ops manual requirement REGARDLESS of any CASA regs.

[ReverseFlight]

CASA will never let you get away with not buying sh!tloads of paper from them.
Whatever keeps CASA in the black = CASA policy.

[lilflyboy262]

Then make it the same price as the paper version?

I'd pay it. You have to pay it for the paper version.

[ReverseFlight]

"We deem it sufficient to have all your weather and NOTAM's stored on there (no paper copies needed). They have no issue using it for charts and navigation, DAPS etc as long as you have redundancies in the aircraft (ie. printed the paper copies of the ERSA entries etc before you leave. Which can be done from the iPad). Also you must not be solely relying on it as a navigation source." No point, lilflyboy262, as you have to pay for the paper version as well as the electronic version for the privilege of being able to use your iPad in-flight. Double the profits for CASA. :ugh:

[Dangly Bits]

Reverse Flight you seem to have little understanding of what CASA does and what AirServices does. CASA do not make money from charts. AirServices do.

Read what Robdog and Makeithappencaptain has written!

Someone find me in the Regs where it says I have to carry paper charts? The rules were written before iPads were invented and just haven't caught up yet.

Nothing in the regs that a pilot must wear shoes either.

[Shagpile]

Correct - CASA do not sell maps & charts.

[ReverseFlight]

Sure guys, thanks for the info. Obviously I haven't been bothered to read the cover of all the maps and docs I've been buying for years.

Doesn't make me more enlightened though, as somebody's always there to rip me off. Twice. :{

[QFF]

I think there are two separate issues with the use of ipad in cockpits - firstly, as an electronic chart display and secondly, use of the ipad's GPS function to provide a moving map type display.

As danglybits suggested, I don't know that there is a restriction on how the chart/DAP information is displayed, so long as it is current. You could have it printed on a roll of toilet paper in braille, and even have a second roll handy for redundancy, I suppose. So I assume same goes for having the charts on ipad. Yes, have a second ipad or iphone or even paper charts handy for redundancy, but even then - has anyone thought of a backup for paper charts in the (albeit unlikely) that the door opens inflight and your maps get sucked out? Perhaps the CASA solution would be to carry a set of DAP/Jepps for every emergency exit on your aircraft, an ipad and iphone, a tablet PC and spare batteries to equal twice your fuel endurance and a new CAO for fatigue and duty limits on electronic devices.:E

The second issue is probably the more contentious one - use of the moving map function, and I think we all agree - its great for situational awareness but not for primary/sole use navigation!

[kalavo]

You are currently required to have a paper based copy of the appropriate charts required for the flight. An iPad does not meet this requirement.

You are not required to have a paper based copy of the weather or notams - you are required to obtain a forecast, you are not required to keep it, so an iPad can meet this requirement.

While a moving map is nice, the GPS in the iPad is not TSO'd and can not be used for primary or sole means navigation.

[Bankstown Boy]

My $0.02 worth

Nowhere in the legs, regs or sups does it stipulate (or even imply) that you must have a paper version of anything. What you are required to have is the up-to-date version of the DAPS etc.

This is no prohibition on whether that version could be on an iPad.

Where this potentially runs into issues is CASA's question of what you are going to do if the electrons run out (or such similar). This is the crux of the issue that the FAA has been grappling with, can the iPad be certified as an EFB (i.e. can it stand alone)?

Perversely, there is also more likely to be a problem with VFR as you can't scribble on the chart and make all those funny pencil marks!

For what little it is worth, my opinion is that an iPad would meet both the letter and spirit of the law. In practice I would carry a backup; potentially this could also be electronic (I.e. An iPhone).

[Unhinged]

You are currently required to have a paper based copy

Reference please ?

[Dangly Bits]

You are currently required to have a paper based copy of the appropriate charts required for the flight. An iPad does not meet this requirement.

Incorrect sorry Kalavo.

Bankstown boy is right on the money.

Please be careful if you are an old bloke like me :E I use my thumb for distance on a wac. Can't do that on the iPad as I can zoom in and that throws the distance out as you would think.

Bring on the CAAP so we can put this to bed.

DB

[KRUSTY 34]

The disclaimer on the OZ runways cover page that says "Not for use in air navigation"!

[das Uber Soldat]

Im very interested in this issue. My understanding so far is that CASA will be happy (unofficially at least for now) if I have redundancy with my electronic charts. So I have an iPad with my jepps on it. Currently I carry my paper charts in my nav bag.

I'm going to talk to a few more FOI's, but if it looks like its possible, ill ditch paper all together and buy a second iPad and portable power supply and keep it in my flight bag.

Im quite keen to never have to do a paper amendment again.

[Lancair70]

das Uber Soldat, what you propose, having an elctronic backup is what I read in a FAA paper I found on the net. They are considering this option, not legal yet but if the yanks do it first ? ?

HOWEVER, one thing that I did read was that in considering allowing the use of EFB (Electronic Flight Bag) was that the device was then considered a piece of air navigation equipment and ONLY to be used as such. The paper was referring to off the shelf laptops so one would assume that has to encompass the iPad.

[Shagpile]

If anybody needs the rapid decompression test results (DO-160F testing) of iPad2 for their company AOC, please PM me.