Flying phobias in aircrew

[Cruise Zombie]

I guess this is probably a taboo subject, but any info would be very gratefully received.

AME's in the civilian world are starting to report more and more cases of airline pilots showing signs of stress, anxiety and burntout which, in a handful of patients, has resulted in a fear of flying and temporary/permanent grounding.

A colleague of mine ( ex-tornados ) said that, during his time with the RAF, he knew of a few pilots who had to stop flying due to developing a fear/phobia of their role. Some after seeing action, others after the simulated ' being shot down and caught by the enemy ' exercise carried out on some remote moor.

Any information, or links to information, about such cases which may shine some light on this problem would be very helpful.

I know, from his books, that an ex-RAF psychiatrist, Prof. Gordon Turnbull, did quite a lot of work in this area some years ago concentrating mainly on PTSD. However if anyone knows if there is publicly available case studies which might help civilian AMEs help their patients please would you let me know.

Many thanks.

[Jayand]

I had a a phobia of flying above anywhere hot and dusty! ****hole.

[BOAC]

We had a few Lightning guys 'lose their bottle' while I was on the jet. I actually volunteered for a Farnborough AvMed 'random sample' pilot phobia survey while serving on 23(F) - must have been around '73 - (well, it got me a few days 'darn sarf'). Was much amused to see that some psycho-twit had written 'Are you afraid of Lightning' as one of the questions on a quiz paper (but missed out mother-in-laws).

It turned out that 'phobia' extended right across the spectrum, including Shack crews to my surprise.

[Cruise Zombie]

Thanks BOAC. The feedback I'm getting from the AMEs I spoke to seem to suggest that the number of hours flown now ( right up to legal limits ) may be sending some guys round the twist. Flying phobia in fast jets must be caused by different stressors I guess. Interesting the way the brain works.

I wonder if any military guys on long flights ( i.e. reconnaissance ) suffered any problems.

Just out of interest how many hours do military guys fly in the different roles ( fast jet/transport ) ?

[Tankertrashnav]

All the time I was flying, although I never had any particular anxiety whilst awake, I had a nightmare, probably weekly, involving being in an aircraft which was being flown ridiculously low (under electric cables etc).

Funnily enough when I took up flying light aircraft many years later the dreams never returned, although I was probably at more risk flying a C172 on my own than I ever had been down the back of a Victor!

In answer to the hours question, we did around 30 hours (say 8 - 10 sorties) a month on average on Victor tankers - no idea what a comparable figure would be now.

[brakedwell]

One of the original B737 captains in Air Europe would never fly above 30,000 feet. A year later he left for a ground instructor job in the USA. Later he got a job flying commuter Bae 146's, which rarely reached his phobia altitude.

[VinRouge]

I am a pretty nervous traveller down the back. Much prefer to be driving up front.

[Cruise Zombie]

Interesting Brakedwell, I know quite a few colleagues who worry about operations close to ' coffin corner ' after they've had one or two unpleasant CAT events. And the more hours flown, the more time to ruminate about such joys !

[Monty77]

Or,

You could land a job with BAE in Saudi as an IP then after a few years claim you are too stressed out to fly with Saudi students.

Do not pass GO, collect half a million quid and poke off to Australia, even though you were from Zimbabwe (and an all round sh*t by all accounts and personal experience).

True story:

On the freak out/ paranoia front. I lined up as number two. Lead made all the right signals. At the head nod, I was convinced something was not right and when he nodded for brake release I just called, 'Stop!'. No call signs or anything. He stopped after two metres, turned and looked, reflecting the raised eyebrow that hung over the Tower. Not sure to this day what made me say/do that. I think older generations called it 'collywobbles'. So I sat there for 10 secs or so before Guardian Angel implants top excuse: 'Soz mate, jacket got caught in the throttle friction.' Which is what I said.
Bit more finger waggling and head nodding and we were off.

It was like when 'someone walks over your grave' type of moment. Perfectly routine and normal yet that one, for some reason, didn't seem right, yet it clearly was.

I think all of us here will have a recollection of that horrible, nauseating feeling that something really crap is about to happen, even though all indications are normal.

Actually, that's a good idea for a new thread: 'Everything was in the Green, then....'

I don't know how to do it, so, good night.

[fantom]

What about specific destinations?

Only four of us were detailed to fly to Samos in early days with my Co.(easily the most dangerous airfield at which I landed); more to Funchal - the old, short rwy (now it's much easier).

One of the others told me that he didn't sleep well before a Samos.

Others spring to mind in the civvy arena but no military stuff that I remember.

[nice castle]

I don't like heights. Flew a gazelle with the doors off recently and it felt awful. Totally irrational, but a feeling nonetheless. Doors back on and problem went away...:}

[newt]

The only phobia I ever remember was fear of ground tour or being posted to CFS!:eek::eek::eek:

[Fareastdriver]

I have flown with those who cannot be bothered about flying but are too lazy to try anything else.

I have flown with those who do not like flying but will not do anything else because it will not pay the bills.

I have flown with those that are afraid of flying; you can see it in their eyes.

They are the ones I used to be afraid of flying with.

[high spirits]

I know of one bloke on my Sqn who had a session with the trick-cyclist due to an 'out of body' experience whilst night flying.

My only phobia was 'spiceyphobia', a fear of a very cheap happy hour down in the south Atlantic...

[Cornish Jack]

My old Boss, a very long-time helicopter man hated having to do air test height climbs in the Whirlwind - 10,000' IIRC. Problem at that height was speed at 65 kts felt like a hover and induced vertigo:eek: His remedy was to imagine the most ginormous set of swept wings attached behind his sight line ... and then he could cope:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Our AEO in 1964 developed a phobia and withdrew from flying. He had already done one tour on Vulcans which of course had a bad reputation for rear crew survival even then. He was then re-roled to the Mark 2 and to the new low level role. Shortly thereafter he withdrew. I think he lasted less than 3 months out of the OCU.

As it was shortly after WW2 - 19 years - consider GW1 was 20 years ago - he was lablled 'chicken' and talked of having LMF. I believe he joined another air force as an ATCO.

[charliegolf]

Not sure if it's quite the same thing, but there was a Harrier pilot on one of the Gut squadrons in the mid 80s who walked into the boss and (not sure of the phrase) stood himself down. Felt he was right on the edge on every sortie. I sem to remember he was respected for his honesty- not like the bloke PN referred to eh?

CG

[MrBernoulli]

Do not pass GO, collect half a million quid and poke off to Australia, even though you were from Zimbabwe (and an all round sh*t by all accounts and personal experience).I can think of 2 people that might be ..... but I wasn't aware such a thing had happened! Interesting .....

[Arm out the window]

I was flying a helicopter on an IF training sortie once where the lower half of one side of the windscreen was covered with a screen, so we had a crewman in the back covering the lookout on that side.

We were in and out of puffy Cu doing an NDB approach as I recall, when the crewie came up on the ICS and said in a kind of funny voice something like "I'm sorry, I don't want to be up here any more. I need to land."

Not those exact words probably, but that was the gist. So we landed and he went to the boss and withdrew himself from flying duties. He couldn't really explain it himself, and had previously had no troubles doing all the whacky things crewmen are required to do, hanging out on the hoist and all that stuff.

I don't know if it was that particular sortie that set him off, or a cumulative thing that caught up with him.

[dakkg651]

For 38 years I have flown upright and inverted in fixed wing, helicopters and gliders and never had an irrational moment. I have even thrown myself out of a perfectly serviceable aeroplane, yelling a happy native american warcry, without the slightest hesitation. Ask me to climb a ladder a few feet, however, and I turn into a gibbering wreck! I hate walking on narrow cliff paths and as for treading on that glass floor at the top of the refurbished Blackpool Tower - No Way! :eek:

The way the human mind works is sometimes mystifying.

Anyone else relate to this or am I in a minority of one?

[Wander00]

I'm like Dak-have to send Mrs W up the ladder to clear the gutters - next trick is to get her trimming trees with the chain saw! -

[Tankertrashnav]

Anyone else relate to this or am I in a minority of one?

Definitely not, dakgg, in fact we had a thread on this a year or two back, and it seemed the majority of us shared your fears.

Re helicopters, I was once sitting on the ledge of a Whirlwind flying over the Hong Kong New Territories enjoying the view of the hills and beaches (I was secured by a strop). Then as we neared Kai Tak and started flying over skyscrapers there was suddenly an idea of height. I rapidly slid back inside the aircraft and stayed well away from the edge till we landed. Weird.

[Madbob]

One experience I can share here is the feeling of a just a "lack of security" when looping an ac with an open cockpit. I have only ever flown aeros in two open cockpit types; the good old T.21 glider and the DH 82A Tiger Moth. Going over the top of a loop was never quite the same as doing the exact same manoevre in anything else that I flew that had a canopy and I always had a desire to check my harness very carefully when doing my Hasel checks:ok:.

The psycological difference of not having 4 or 5 mm of plexiglass was very real. It was never enough to stop me aerobatting but the feeling was very much there.

MB

[Union Jack]

Anyone else relate to this or am I in a minority of one?

I do recall that some FAA aircrew occasionally expressed the view that they did not actually derive a huge amount of enjoyment from landing heavy jet aircraft on a pitching rolling deck on wet, dark and stormy nights.:ok:

Jack

[brakedwell]

I do recall that some FAA aircrew occasionally expressed the view that they did not actually derive a huge amount of enjoyment from landing heavy jet aircraft on a pitching rolling deck on wet, dark and stormy nights.

I am not surprised, it was bloody dangerous :eek:

[dakkg651]

'The psycological difference of not having 4 or 5 mm of plexiglass was very real. It was never enough to stop me aerobatting but the feeling was very much there'.

In the pre huggy-fluffy days, vertical metal ladders on the outside of buildings and towers were fitted with metal hoops to give the same feeling of security. Not allowed to climb them nowadays of course without multiple ropes and safety nets.

I seem to remember, as a space cadet, before a trip in a Sioux at Ternhill many moons ago, that the yellow line painted around the bubble canopy was there to prevent similar feelings of insecurity.

[BBadanov]

Didn't like night flying. :(

Not a phobia, it just kept me out of the bar. :ok:

[airborne_artist]

I seem to remember, as a space cadet, before a trip in a Sioux at Ternhill many moons ago, that the yellow line painted around the bubble canopy was there to prevent similar feelings of insecurity. Just possible that it was put there as an attitude reference.

In my green phase I was aware of a lot of people who much preferred jumping at night - they couldn't see the ground when they were in the door. Most people hated jumping from a balloon.

[Bubblewindow]

Again like many I have fear of 'Open' heights. The first time I flew in a Heli with the door open I was overwhelmed but I knew I had a job to do so had to suck it up.
On fixed wing (even after 20 years) I still get a slight tingle everytime we cross the threshold, I think it's that slight pause as the rate of decent slows right down just before the mains touch, :ooh:
Low level over a flat calm sea is also a wee bit disconcerting, more of a concern than a fear.

BW

[blaireau]

I used to experience mild feelings of fear and trepidation doing self-illuminated night ground attack in the F4. Matters were compounded by this performance being carried out in 5-ship line astern formations. After the first pass, each a/c recovered back into a semblance of the order in which they had delivered (or not). Invariably that was the last time the a/c were in correct order.

On a happier note, whereas the Wingco didn't get his AFC, he did get an MBE. To the tune of "We're pressing on regardless".

[Pontius Navigator]

Charliegolf, there were two differences. One was that he was not the PIC and the other, as I was careful to point out, was that it was not that long after the war and there were still DFC holders etc on the sqns.

PS

In the early 80s we also had a pilot that took himself off flying as he believed he was ill. The Docs were adamant that he was not and suggested it was a phobia.

He paid for a private specialist who eventually determined that the man was indeed ill. After a period of recuperation he returned to full flying duties. No suggestion of LMF by us then.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, I think that is not quite the same. What you possibly experienced was the onset of vertigo - and the need to pee?

I had that once in the Varisty. The hatch to the bomb aimer's compartment was open and I was sat on the floor with my legs dangling in the void. The ground was 4000 feet below. The brain ignored the hard shell of the aircraft and told me I was sitting on the edge of a 4000 feet precipice. I needed a pee then!

There was also the documented case of the Jaguar pilot on a high transit to Akrotiri. He was over Italy or the Med at 30k odd with that strange indefined horizon below and blue sky above. He felt he was sitting on a knife edge. Again it was vertigo and not a true phobia.

[brakedwell]

In my green phase I was aware of a lot of people who much preferred jumping at night - they couldn't see the ground when they were in the door. Most people hated jumping from a balloon.

Perhaps the fear of a parachute failure had something to do with it!

I must admit I am frightened of flying in helicopters. As a CCF cadet I was meant to fly in a RN Hiller HTE2 at Old Sarum, but was talked into a Chipmunk trip by a persuasive F/Sgt pilot while waiting for the RN Commander to finish a lecture. I was airborne in the Chipmunk when shortly after take-off the Hiller lost a rotor blade over Old Sarum Castle. The pilot was killed. Many years later in an Argosy, I was joining the circuit at Khormaksar when a Belvedere exploded in front of us, due to an uncontained turbine blade entering the avpin tank. Hanging under a chopper while being winched from the sea during survival courses used to terrify my :eek:

[Ali Qadoo]

I'm not sure whether I'd elevate it to the realms of 'phobia', but I can certainly confess to getting severly twitched over the years by repeated attempts on my life... trouble is, the people responsible were supposed to be on the same side.

After two tours on the F-4 I got my dream posting - instructor at Chivenor. It was a fantasitc tour and looking back there was never one incident that stood out, but there were occasions where I erred on the wrong side of letting Bloggs sort out a problem of his own making. This inevitably led to a very hurried "I have control", a bad case of sixpence half-a-crown and a mental note to intervene earlier next time things went pear-shaped.

The worst ones were during the early air combat sorties where Bloggs would end up nose-high, inverted, out of SA, faced with rapidly diminishing knots and nose authority, with the other aircraft stationary in the canopy and getting bigger by the second. These are the ones that still wake me up sweating in the night.

Towards the end of the tour I was conscious of a bad case of "the twitch" and found myself intervening far too early when anything didn't look right. It made me a less effective instructor and didn't help the studes' confidence.

I'd completely forgotton about the problem until I was on an exchange tour and ended up in the back seat of the two-sticker, teaching combat to convexees. The twitch came back to such an extent that I was only happy flying the single seater and in formations containing blokes I trusted. Needless to say, I didn't mention it, but to this day, every time I get on an aircraft (pax only these days), I'm still convinced (wrongly, obviously) that the people at the pointy end will try to kill me.

In the light of what people are having to put up with in the sandpit, this might sound pathetic, but the accumulation of "Christ, that was close" events over the years added up to a feeling that after a great 19 years flying Auntie Betty's aeroplanes I'd pushed my luck far enough and it was time to try something else for a living.

[gijoe]

In my green phase I was aware of a lot of people who much preferred jumping at night - they couldn't see the ground when they were in the door.

..all of mine were nights jumps...in the door and eyes closed! :ok:

[Vortex what...ouch!]

For 38 years I have flown upright and inverted in fixed wing, helicopters and gliders and never had an irrational moment. I have even thrown myself out of a perfectly serviceable aeroplane, yelling a happy native american warcry, without the slightest hesitation. Ask me to climb a ladder a few feet, however, and I turn into a gibbering wreck! I hate walking on narrow cliff paths and as for treading on that glass floor at the top of the refurbished Blackpool Tower - No Way!

The way the human mind works is sometimes mystifying.

Anyone else relate to this or am I in a minority of one?

I have exactly the same problem. So bad that there is a model of Sydney under glass in the library entrance that is not that deep a hole but I cannot bring myself to walk onto it. Completely irrational but there you have it. :ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

In the pre huggy-fluffy days, vertical metal ladders on the outside of buildings and towers were fitted with metal hoops to give the same feeling of security.

When I were a mere strip of a lad I would ascend 3-4 decks on a vertical ladder with no hoops at all. I would never climb the mast however.

I think this is similar to climbing a ladder to the roof. The mast ladder was as if you were climbing in space whereas the ladder secured to the superstructure gave an illusion of safety.

You get the same illusion leaning over a balcony railing. You can also stand on the balcony, hands in pockets, no problem. Remove the railing ............

The issue is thus one of perceived insecurity which is probably the root cause of the phobias.

[Jimlad1]

"I do recall that some FAA aircrew occasionally expressed the view that they did not actually derive a huge amount of enjoyment from landing heavy jet aircraft on a pitching rolling deck on wet, dark and stormy nights.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif"

Bet you that if the Sea harrier was still in service then this wouldn't be an issue :E (Paging WEBF to the thread, paging Mr WEBF...)

[Fareastdriver]

What about the seconded RAF pilots?

[2Planks]

Yip - I'm wih the team - completely happy upside down in a jet - but at the top of Gaudi's Cathedral in Barcelona going across the bridge thingys I was on my hands and knees!

[diginagain]

I don't like heights. Flew a gazelle with the doors off recently and it felt awful. Totally irrational, but a feeling nonetheless. Doors back on and problem went away..

I can equate to that - doors-off photo shoot over the middle of the Falklands, at some stupid height. Motor-drive on old-fashioned film camera. "Right," says our intrepid photographer (the Pilot) "gentle pedal turn while I get a panoramic spread." Me (Aircrewman) peering down at not a lot, gently pushed at one of the pedals. Two frames later, David Bloody Bailey runs out of battery. Interesting couple of minutes while the camera gear got stowed and the pilot got to grips with the configuration I'd got us into.

Did a drop of free-fall parachutists from a Lynx over Edinburgh once, and had an overwhelming desire to jump out after them, but that may have had more to do with the crappy aircraft.

One that has come back to haunt me over the fifteen years since I retired from flying, is wires. They feature in my dreams regularly, despite never having had an encounter during my flying.

[John Farley]

Like several above I cannot stand heights. Mrs F does all that is needed up ladders or wotever.

I have come to the conclusion that in my case it is not just a fear of heights but a fear of falling. Provided I can strap whatever it is on my back end of problem. I even managed an aero tow in a Dagling to 2000ft over Cranwell North when I was 2 i/c the Gliding Club there in 61 ish. Deliberately getting airborne without any indication of IAS or height was an issue but nothing else.

[Brian 48nav]

When I was approaching my 8year option in '73,the chance of getting a decent civilian Flt Nav' job was less than finding rocking-horse s**t,so I thought I would go to CSE Oxford and do a CPL.

They said to start with a PPL while HMQ was still paying me, so off I went to Staverton. By then I had 2700hrs as a nav but had never been in anything smaller than the Valetta/Varsity, apart from dinghy drill uplifts by Whirlwind.
I was absolutely terrified in a Cessna 150 and hated every minute of the 30 or so hours I did, especially stalling and spinning. Once, the instructor hadn't fastened his door properly and it flew open when we doing steep turns, I nearly wet myself.

Back at Lyneham I explained this to some of my mates and several said that they had been like that at first on Chipmunks/JPs, but, as I told them I was paying and it felt like throwing good money away.

Suffice to say I gave up even though my instructor ( Pete Rayner exCFS) said I ought to have a double brandy before I flew to calm my nerves.

Years later No1 son took me up in a Jaguar, didn't enjoy that much and I did experience what he said was called 'knife edge'.

It certainly vindicated my decision to only apply to be a nav' back in '65.

I don't do heights at all - once when staying with an old Herc mate in HK he found it amusing that I insisted Mrs B48 slept next to the window of his 12th floor apartment.

[Tankertrashnav]

In the pre huggy-fluffy days, vertical metal ladders on the outside of buildings and towers were fitted with metal hoops to give the same feeling of security. Not allowed to climb them nowadays of course without multiple ropes and safety nets.




FFS you're now a huggy-fluffy (God how I detest that phrase) if you don't want to shin up a factory chimney without safety gear. I'm definitely one in that case, and can I have a parachute as well, please?

[Brian 48nav]

I lasted 4 minutes of the video, then I think my pizza and chips from the pub were going to make a reappearance!

[Grabbers]

I managed 2 minutes. Palms sweating, legs very wobbly. And I'm sat on the sofa. :{

[500N]

Only 3 minutes and that was enough.

That is one hell of a video.

.

[Wensleydale]

I was once offerred the jump seat in a NATO E-3A cockpit for landing. All went well until the aircraft started oscillating on the nose wheel and the Italian aircraft captain started to chase it. Just as it got decidedly interesting, the USAF co-pilot called "I have control" and stabiliased things. I never flew AWACS seat 5 for take-offs and landings again, (about 6,500 hours worth) and I always passed offers to the "less experienced" members of the mission crew.

(I also discovered why the Pope always kissed the tarmac after landing with Air Italia).:eek:

[ShyTorque]

I also used to experience the "trapped under wires in flight" dream. Not pleasant. Possibly brought on by the fact that at the time I was in a job where the exercise air control orders for helicopters were always "Not ABOVE 150 feet agl".

Never seen my wife up a ladder. She wouldn't wear the suspenders, either. :(

[BOAC]

I watched the video - couldn't see the problem..........................and then he went outside

[Captain Sand Dune]

My phobias?:

Psychs.
Quacks.
Paperwork.
Blunt sh*t!

[barnstormer1968]

I lasted 52 seconds before getting that nervous sickening feeling.
At six minutes I noticed I was holding my handkerchief over my mouth:\
All this while sat in a chair at my PC!

I could never ever do that job, no matter how much I was offered, as it would probably quite literally kill me through fear related heart failure. On the other hand, I would not have any problem with being in a glider or (more recently) a Tiger Moth with no chute at that height.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Weird experiences in roughly chronological order.

Last Solo Navex from Valley, up a valley in Scotland, low cloud & pine forest. Complete loss of depth perception, turned left & snuck out the side of the valley through last remaining letter box. First time in my life I'd felt real fear; had to lap a hill twice just to calm down. Found out a year later that a Jag guy crashed (fatal) up the same valley less than 20 mins later, report said possibly due to loss of depth perception - I KNOW it was. Relieved to find out fear was completely justified, as it has been on the other occasions it happens to me. Never had the 'inexplicable fear' some others have mentioned here, but I suspect you were right to be fearful!

Out-of-body experience closing in on a night lights-out Visual Ident (before NVGs). Seemed like I was drifting up and back from my body; no fear, just peaceful, detached. Guess a small part of my brain remembered the North Luff medical brief. A little voice said "get back in there". Instantly back in my own head, can't have lasted long - a few seconds?, nav didn't notice, completed intercept, no after effects.

Nearly fell asleep once over Paris on a long formation transit home. Nav was already asleep. I now find it impossible to sleep on any airliner, even after 50+ hours without sleep. No nerves, it just can't happen.

Like many I was afraid of heights, anything over about 10 feet, though never in an aircraft (even in a low hover). Took up skydiving. Fear (especially in the open doorway) lasted till jump eight. Never any fear once out of the aircraft. No fear anywhere from jump 9 onwards, or in any other situations afterwards - I now like skydiving on my back looking up at the sky, and happily helped a neighbour relay his roof in the snow last winter. Simple solution guys, do 9 jumps!

Recently singlehanded the Atlantic. Occasionally felt like jumping off the back for about the first 10 days 'just to see what it would be like'. Had read lots of singlehander tales that told me this was quite common. Feeling went, with no recurrence. You hear voices, dogs barking, that kind of thing also, which is also quite common, apparently.

To the best of my knowledge, I am no more crazy than the rest of you.;)

[diginagain]

I'm not even going to look at the video, as I know what my reaction will be. :uhoh:

[neilf92]

Followed them all the way to the top - fantastic - on video! - but I'll pass on the chance to try it for real!
Damn !Now I'll get that recurring nightmare about hanging on top of a flimsy ladder which starts to keel over!

[grandfer]

Surely it's easier to take regular fruit & veg or a tin of prunes to cure accute constipation !!!!!!!!!! Sh***************************************t :uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:

[Halton Brat]

Watching that movie of the tower climb gives me the strangest feeling in my scrotum. I am not totally averse to unusual sensations in this region, but this one I don't need.

These guys deserve a medal of dustbin-lid proportions; I thought I was game for a laugh, but this is beyond the Pale. Whatever they get paid, it's not enough.........

HB

[Adam Nams]

Watched the vid and kept thinking "slippery glove". :eek: Completely barking!

From a personal point - I have no trouble being winched or even abseiling from a helo. I think nothing about 'spacewalking', (apart from double double checking the harness straps, QRF etc).

However, put me up a ladder to paint the side of my house ... :\

[Green Flash]

3.5 mins in and I shut my eyes. Gonads of pure titanium, those boys.:\

Like many others, flying ain't a problem but anything higher than a pair of high heels and I'm done for.











Er, did I just write that?

The high heels bit?







Thought so .....:uhoh:

[The Old Fat One]

On fear of "exposure" or to give it its technical name "acrophobia"...

As a sufferer (and as aircrew) many moons ago it was explained to me thus.

Man desires to fly

Some men desire to fly a lot (strangely they often become aircrew)

Men who desire to fly lots go up building/cliff/mountain

subconscious mind says..."you want fly...jump, it will be good"

Conscious mind (also known as fear) says..."are you out of you ****ing mind, get away from the edge!!

What we aircrew hear and feel is our conscious mind responding to our subconscious desire.

That is why we love being in an aeroplane or dangling from a harness (where we are secure) but hate being at an edge, where we are exposed.

It made sense to me

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Many airline pilots in civvy street have a phobia of coming to work

[Pontius Navigator]

anything higher than a pair of high heels and I'm done for.

...

Er, did I just write that?

The high heels bit?

Law of unintended consequences.

Young lady (?) legs going up for ever. 5 inch heels with one inch soles. Then she had to bend over to pick something up.

The platform soles meant she could not reach the ground.

Being the elderly gentleman that I am I manouevred around to her 6. shortly thereafter I sustained a stinging blow to my ear.

[Arm out the window]

I'd have a go at that climb if I had to. At least there was plenty to hang onto.

The thing I hate is climbing up a corrugated iron roof with a decent pitch on it like ours, to adjust the TV antenna or whatever. You know you won't slip if you just take it slowly, but the thought of it is excruciating.

[Halton Brat]

My dear chap, you simply need to secure a stout rope to the rear bumper of your 'Ute Truck' & toss it over your roof from the other side of the house; instant security.

However, you may wish to disable said vehicle in a major way, lest your Sheila should fancy popping to your most adjacent shopping Mall to purchase a pair of Kangaroo-skin Manolo Blahniks, whilst you are perched upon said roof (don't tie yourself on........) :ok:

HB

[Arm out the window]

Good call, HB! I'll remember that one, particularly the bit about disabling the ute.

She does have a tendency to take off at a million miles an hour to go emu shooting, which is our national sport. If you we get a roo and an emu at the same time, that's even better, because we can eat our own coat of arms.

Seriously but, great advice.

[500N]

Arm out the window

I never thought I would read what you just put on a UK orientated Air forum !
Not many people know about the "Coat of Arms" shoot.

BTW, I was always told it was one after the other, not necessarily at the same time.

:ok:

[ShyTorque]

She does have a tendency to take off at a million miles an hour to go emu shooting,

Be very careful with Emus and a roof.

Rod Hull's Emu pushed him off the roof while he was adjusting his TV aerial.....

[brakedwell]

I never realised Emus could fly :8

[diginagain]

My understanding was that Rod Hull had asked Emu to hold the ladder.

[FlapJackMuncher]

Watched the video.
Couldn't believe the safety clip used at the end was far too big for the metal steps - it would've just slipped straight off!

Also spotted the Jubilee clips holding the top of the tower on - cheap or what?

[Airborne Aircrew]

On fear of "exposure" or to give it its technical name "acrophobia"...

So I'm afraid of exposure? Because wherever I look acrophobia is the fear of heights... :(

I jumped 50 times with barely a worry... I used to love the balloon jumps - front somersault and all. I had no problem standing on the external step of the Puma as we began an approach to No-Name Rebro in Belize, (about 1000'AGL).

But now I won't stand on the glass floor in the CN Tower in Toronto, (about 1200'), and I have "nightmares" from time to time where I am on a very narrow and high, (often only high enough to do severe damage), ledges, or similarly "awkward" situations and I'm petrified - I always "freeze up". I often wonder if I had a monkey harness or a parachute whether I would suffer the same illogical fear... :{

[Molemot]

Some years back, whilst defending the frontier as an Immigration Officer at Heathrow, there were passengers from a flight from Sydney coming through. One came to my desk...I looked at him and said "Why are you wearing a parachute?" He told me had had been wearing it the whole trip and I was the first to notice! As he said, imagine how it would feel if everything went pearshaped and your parachute was down with the baggage.....

As for personal flying phobia, I also get the "trapped under the wires" dream...high speed, very low but the aeroplane responds so slowly I can't find my way up through a gap. There's a sequence in a film called "Porco Rosso" ( a weird cartoon) which is very close to the feeling.

[The Old Fat One]

AA

Other than the sematics you've just agreed with me 100 percent. And what you decribe is identical to what I feel too.


I often wonder if I had a monkey harness or a parachute whether I would suffer the same illogical fear...


If you were tied on...no (or not to anywhere near the same degree). Parachute....you probably be equally fearful, but because now your conscious mind would be reminding you of all the nutjobs that have wiped themselves out base jumping.

PS

Just a thought...I take it you know "exposure" in this context is fear of being near the edge of a high place...not fear of having your willy out?? :E

[Pontius Navigator]

I looked at him and said "Why are you wearing a parachute?" He told me had had been wearing it the whole trip and I was the first to notice!

Yeah, nice one. And what is the easiest way to carry a parachute and all your luggage from the carousel :)

OTOH we once booked a chap to fly to Iceland. He only had carry on luggage:

Immersion suit, life preserved including explosive pyros, parachute harness, parachute, bone dome, and was wearing a flying suit.

Now I would have loved to know what his fellow passengers thought. The aircraft might even have been a 727!

[Airborne Aircrew]

TOFO:

I don't like being on the edge of anything high with or without my willie out... ;)

The Base Jumping thing has crossed my mind funnily enough and I've wondered if the fear would change a little from the actual fall to the fall and hitting the tower on the way down.

It's all pretty academic at this point. We live not far from Toronto and love the place so we will be returning. We will also be taking our adopted daughter and at some point we'll be going back up the tower. I have promised myself that I will not pass on any illogical fears to her so, whether I like it or not, I'm walking across it... :eek:

[Dengue_Dude]

Well there's one reassuring thing, I'm not the only one who turns to jelly at the top of a ladder.

I'll fly as high as you like with 3 mm of metal between me and outside, but that video is spooky.

I'm sitting safe as houses on my couch and I turned a bit nauseous looking at that - how ridiculous.

The only other phobia is running out of Mars bars and having to face my (then) 2 year old when I got back from flying.

[deltahotel]

I was absolutely fine - honest. Until he went 'outside' and then I'm shouting at the screen "use the clip, use the f****** clip. Please."

[B Fraser]

Hanging from a paraglider wing suspended by kevlar lines thinner than a shoelace.... no problem. Spiral dive the wing pulling several G watching the ground rush up to meet me...... wheeeeeeee. Lying flat across propane cylinders swapping tanks in a hot air balloon at 3000 feet with a basic safety harness..... easy.

Up a ladder painting the ceiling above the stairwell.......... :uhoh:

[Trash 'n' Navs]

Every step up I was cringing - mostly because each step up meant another step back down again and it's the climbing down bit I fear (oh and standing on the top with the sway)! :eek:

Cruise Zombie:- Flying phobia? Yeah, 2 of them:

1 - Aerobatics in any a/c without a MB letdown option. Started after hearing of a Pitts that augered in near my home town - the pilot's leg bone penetrated the floor from the force he was applying on impact. All because the rudder rigging came loose and he lost rudder authority during a spin;

2 - Flying commercial. Every flight I had/have an irrational fear it's going to crash. Earliest memories of it starting was after my 3rd near miss when Joe Lighty appeared in my windscreen during an IRT without a single RDO call entering the circuit - the IRE's sharp intake of breath alerted me to something amiss and looking up, it was clear avoiding action was too late but luckily also unnecessary as he was already in the 12 o'clock passing left. Just one of the reasons I never took up that option on joining civvy street - as pax, nearly 10 years on, it's still there but diminishing over time. About the time I started having kids, the phobia evolved to include hijacking so the original decision was reinforced. Also reckon I read too many crash comics.

I've not heard anyone discuss the topic so well done for raising it. I wouldn't have a clue if I'm in my own minority but it doesn't matter to me.

[pontifex]

Many years ago I was doing my ground tour as a P Staff chap at Training Command and I seem to remember something about Pteraphobia which, as I recall, was almost a taboo subject. It seems that it was considered infectious so, if anyone was afflicted they were very quickly hustled of in some secrecy and eased out of the force. Never actually came into contact with it personally but I was certainly briefed on the matter. This was at about the same time (not too long after WW2) as PN's AEO who I knew. What turned him was a close relative being killed (maybe a brother) in a V bomber crash. I believe he actually became a solicitor in the end

[phil9560]

I just couldn't help thinking whats his hourly rate.

[kiwi grey]

at Old Sarum ... waiting for the RN Commander to finish a lecture.Brakedwell, when was that?
My dad may have been the said RN Commander, he was there from ~1959 - 1961. Not sure of the exact dates (I was under ten years old!) but I do remember we lived at No 1 Officers' Married Quarters :)

[brakedwell]

It was before 1959. More like 1954.

[Exascot]

Interesting thread. Never had a problem airborne in anything. I can stand on the edge of the house roof where if I fell I could be a goner. However the edge of a 1,000 ft cliff (many here) no way :eek:

We guide walking groups here, some people suffer vertigo in different scenarios. We have some clients who are happy with narrow cliff paths with dead drops but not happy with a narrow path on a 45 deg scree slope and vice versa.

There is a 2,000 ft cliff here which drops straight into the sea. At one point there is a very wide shelf about 5 ft down. My party trick was to rush ahead of the group and drop down onto it pretending to be hanging onto the edge of the cliff. Mrs Exascot has put a stop to that one, threatened to stop the beer allowance :{

[AvMed.IN]

Cruise Zombie,

you ask, Any information, or links to information, about such cases which may shine some light on this problem would be very helpful.

There are several references on 'Fear of Flying' among pilots, but if you are looking for the same in classical military setting there is no better reference than Flying and danger, joy and fear (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3954701), by Col (Retd) DR Jones.

However in commercial aviation setting, may be the statistics quoted by Chew, in his paper, Fear of flying - a Singapore perspective (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9140577), may throw some light.

[Cruise Zombie]

Many thanks AvMed.In, I'll check them out.

[P6 Driver]

In the 1970's, on an AAC squadron in BAOR, I recall a Scout pilot who apparently lost confidence in his ability to fly and came off flying duties.

Unfortunately, I never found out what the outcome was as I moved on, but I always felt very safe in the aircraft when he was in control, and always had him on my "good pilot" list.

[Mmmmnice]

In cloud/over the sea/in the dark/in the desert - and any combination of the former - but I used to cheer up at low level; provided I wasn't being shot at!

Seriously though, I did once get v stressed in a relatively straightforward job that I had no trouble doing. It manifested itself as my having trouble sleeping.
The day I was posted I slept for 12hrs straight - wierd thing the psyche....

[Airborne Aircrew]

wierd thing the psyche....

Indeed... There are so many reasons why not, yet so few as to why one might act as we do - but we do it anyway... :sad:

[Tankertrashnav]

While we're recommending books, it's worth pointing out that Fear of Flying by Erica Jong hasn't got a great deal to say about the subject.

Lot's of sex in it though!

[goudie]

Lots of talk here of being scared of open space and heights. What about claustrophobia?
Although I wasn't aircrew I was fortunate enough to do a fair amount of back and side seating in a variety of aircraft, and flew gliders for a while. I thoroughly enjoyed most of it, even the odd LABS trip!
Having once spent some time flying 4hr legs in the righthand back seat of a B15, I have some admiration for the Navs/Obs who flew in the Sea Vixen or Canberra PR9, and the back of the V's for that matter. I take my hat off to them.

[shandyman]

Many hours in the Nimrod down to 200ft and 300ft at night and never worried too much. Whilst looking out of the port beam, maintaining straight and level but watching the Afghan, Omani, Iraqi hills coming up to meet us, brought definite feelings of unease. Bit like being in a descent that nobody else had noticed!

[Art Field]

pontifex

The AEO you mentioned was my AEO on Victors and although his brothers death was the final straw I should have seen the signs long before. He never refused a trip but often gave signs of nervousness and on a long detachment overseas became very nervy and intolerant. It is easy to be wise after so much time has past and attitudes have changed but I wonder just how much help one could have given him at the time.

[Pontius Navigator]

Art, the AEO I refered to was Vulcans and I do not believe ever did Victors, so more than one AEO.

They may have had the worst job at low level. No maps to see or radar just a periscope to show all the hills you had just missed.

[Brian 48nav]

The AEO story has reminded me of something I'd almost forgotten. A controller on my watch at LATCC ( West Drayton) in the 70s was the brother of the Trident captain in the Zagreb mid-air.

He never spoke to an aircraft again and was quietly pensioned-off. The days when there was still a caring side to management.

[Ron Cake]

Goudie

Thanks for mentioning what I imagine is the most common aircrew phobia of all - claustrophobia

I spent hours in the back of V bombers without any hint of claustrophobia. Even a small cockpit of, say, a JP was not a problem. But nothing would induce me to get into the inside (ie starboard) seat in the back of a Canberra. A panic attack would be guaranteed. ....can't get into the back of two door car either - would rather walk.

Wierd or what?

[snafu]

Lasted until about 3:30 of the video, albeit with the hairs up on the back of my neck and found myself clenching my hands...as well as another part of the anatomy! I thought I was doing OK, even after he'd gone 'outside' and had even started to relax (marginally) when he clipped on just next to the spiky aerials.....then he unclipped again and I couldn't take any more!! :eek:

I've spent more than enough time orbiting a few thousand feet over the top of those great holiday spots like Basrah and Helmand, I love tactical descents from height to LL and can just about cope with ladders at home. Put me anywhere near a cliff edge (or even a slightly steep slope to be honest) and I'm hugging the far wall trying very hard not to look anywhere near the big open space!!:uhoh:

[doubledolphins]

Ok, sorry to put some airline flying on this thread. But I do sometimes have an irrational fear of a bomb going off in the hold. It doesn't last long and it's not a good feeling to have. It won't stop me flying and I hope it goes away. I think it may come from my hearing R/T reporting the Lockerbie Crash and seeing the faint glow to the south as I climbed out of Glasgow. But I'm not a shrink and so I wouldn't know.
I also get the dream about flying down a street, under power cables and bridges. Funny old thing about that is that my old Dad, 40 years at sea, used to dream he was driving his ship down a street. That stopped after he retired.

[kintyred]

NSA

I've read your post a few times now and I'm still not quite sure what you are trying to say. Could you give a brief explanation of your message please?

[xtp]

Returning the original subject:

Gordon Smith was a flying doc in CFS Standards at Little Rissington in the early 1970s who did rehab flying with aircrew.

Most were aircrew who suffered from airsickness and were being put through a desensitisation syllabus, but I remember one Lightning pilot who'd found LL over the sea at night less than comfortable and who they tried to coax back into confidence. Can't remember if he succeeded.

Perhaps the most memorable was an Iranian pilot who'd broken his back in a T33 crash and taught himself the Bader walk. He was being assessed to see if he could still fly OK despite the lower limb issue. As far as I recall he was passed OK in a JP.

Doc Smith sadly died in a Meteor accident at Farnborough a few years later.

When I was at CFS again 10 years later, this rehab flying had been moved to IAM at Farnborough.

[Wander00]

Love flying, in anything but a flex-wing microlight, but hate, no petrified of, ladders, narrow high paths, and skiing towards a ledge

[newt]

Me too. It's getting off the ladder onto the roof that I really hate! Open cockpits and balloons no problem!

[Danny42C]

dakkg651,

Your #20 - I'm with you all they way !

Bit late - D.

[thing]

I don't like clattercopters, spent a bit of time in them at various places and was always relieved to get out. When the wings go faster than the fuselage something ain't right IMO.

Always felt entirely at home in either gliders or powered, only ever had one sharp intake of breath moment (apart from avoiding the usual nutjobs you find in any civvy GA circuit) when I was IMC and daydreaming. I corrected for a small bank on the AI but corrected the wrong way and couldn't figure out why the bank was increasing. This probably took two seconds but seemed like two hours to me; I can still see the AI now....I realised my error and corrected the right way whilst letting out an involuntary expletive. I became more alert thereafter...

No nightmares yet although I do dream about flying on my own without an aircraft. These dreams always end with me thinking 'I mut be dreaming' at which point I plummet earthwards and as I hit the deck I wake up with a bit of a start.

Commercial flying I don't like landings, I want to be up the front making sure the buggers are doing it right. The worst part for me though are these rated take offs they do these days. I know they are doing them but when you have been trundling down the runway for 30 seconds and the end is getting butt clenchingly close it still makes me clench my fist and scream in my head 'get some bloody power on you clowns and sod the engines.'

[Danny42C]

thing,

Me too ! - steerage in an A320 out of LHR...."He's never going to get this off the ground - this is it !"........

If someone's going to kill me in an aircraft, I'd sooner it was me !...D.

[smujsmith]

Danny,

How many times I've sat down the back of an Albert and thought exactly the same. Problem was, unlike yourself, I doubt I could really do a better job. Hardly likely that 500 hours single seat gliders would equate to the fine pilots who kept me safe in 5000 hours plus of "aerial hitch hiking" I managed to accrue. I note that a lot of ex service pilots on PPRUNE tend to decry their abilities, except the fighter fraternity, but I think all are worthy of some respect, but not outright adulation. Certainly not the single seater bods, a bit selfish, if you see what I mean.

Smudge:ok:

[thing]

500 hours single seat gliders

Certainly not the single seater bods, a bit selfish, if you see what I mean

Hoist by thine own petard sir!:)

[Herod]

The bit about aircrew being scared of heights is more general than people think. I know quite a few (myself included) who don't like ladders or ledges, and I certainly give funfair rides a miss. If I was going to turn upside down, I preferred to be the one doing it. Funny thing though, once I was grounded, I was happier (still not totally happy) climbing ladders.

[smujsmith]

Thing,

Accepted fully sir, and duly fined myself a double scotch. As you aren't here I will enjoy it on your behalf, I've selected a drop of Bruichladdich Rocks (Of course, the reference to the single seater chaps referred to fast jets pilots, who tended not to carry SLF like myself, except for one glorious experience). No disrespect intended, and obviously, you did not see what I meant. single seaters don't carry passengers.

Cheers

Smudge:ok:

[thing]

I've selected a drop of Bruichladdich RocksYou have made me pour a Glenfiddich Special Reserve now you bounder. By the way, mrs thing and daughter are taking themselves off to Turkey at the end of May. I'm not one for sitting by a pool so I decided to stay at home and plan a weeks flying...:)

And guess what is happening at the end of May...

The Islay Festival | Welcome (http://www.theislayfestival.co.uk/index.php)

Islay just happens to have a fine 1500 mtr runway, what a coincidence!!

By the way, have you ever tried this Bruichladdich Waves Whisky - Master of Malt (http://www.masterofmalt.com/whiskies/bruichladdich-waves-whisky/) Outstanding stuff.

[smujsmith]

Thing,

I fully intend to try the "waves" and wish you well on your Islay trip in May. I only wish I could join you. Enjoy your tipple sir, and thanks for the "waves" heads up.

Smudge:ok:

PS. I'm looking at the possibility of being there, subject to SWMBO permission and issue of a travel warrant.

[Four Types]

I once met a tail-gunner who didn't like flying with his back to the engines!!

(The old ones are the best!)

:8

[ORAC]

There was an 8 Sqn Shack pilot back in the last couple of years it was flying who was going out with one of our WRAF controllers at Buchan who refused to fly it any more as he said it was going to kill him.

They sent him down for a Psychiatric investigation and he took his logbook and showed the shrink the number of engine fires and other Maydays and explained the consequences of the main beam burning through.

Shrink sent him back with a note stating he was evidently the only sane one on the fleet and that the rest ought to be grounded as mad.

IIRC he was posted to The VC-10 force.

[Haraka]

ORAC
This story is so very close to "Catch 22" as to be frightening.

[gr4techie]

As an engineer. I became aware how over maintained aircraft are, how much redundancy there is in the aero systems and the large quantity of safety nets in our procedures to stop mistakes slipping through (I.E, 100% supervised tasks, lengthy functional tests that are independently witnessed). Therefore I know we are more likely to be killed on the drive to an airport by Bambi's mum running across the road, than be involved in an aviation accident.

Interestingly, I used to do a lot of rock climbing in my youth. I was never phased when leading a climb but I struggle to look down over the balcony railings of a tall building. I suppose I trusted my climbing ability and equipment, I was in total control when climbing, but knew there's nothing to stop me falling over a railing?

I too had some moments taking off in airliners as a pax, looking out the window thinking to myself "they can't be much runway left".

My only phobia is going on det somewhere without a good hotel.

[gr4techie]

I often wonder if I had a monkey harness or a parachute whether I would suffer the same illogical fear...

When I was younger, I spent many a weekends gliding. I remember the club would wear parachutes in the gliders.

I asked "Whats the minimum height for the chute"?

The reply I was "Oh, you won't get that high".

I suppose the parachutes were there as ballast for us skinny people and to give some padding to the seat.

[John Farley]

snafu

Yes I am the same as you - terrible fear of heights.

It seemed to me that I was actually afraid I might fall and that is why as soon as I strapped something on my back it became no problem.

[Mogwi]

Yep, I am with the most revered John. Can't stand heights and absolutely HATE roller-coasters, even though I LOVE low-level aeros up to +9/-3g.

The other thing I am scared of is a big (deleted non-political adjective) chap with a knife!

[VinRouge]

John, out of interest, I have heard rotary mates talk of suffering vertigo when mountain flying, particularly flying slow over ridge lines.

Did you ever have a bout when flying the harrier?

[ShotOne]

The airline pilots union BALPA have done a great deal of work on this subject. It's a serious issue. Nothing to do with being afraid of heights but the biggest cause of medical loss apart from cardiovascular. I personally know three pilots who left aviation for this reason. Two of them were former RAF pilots, one of whom sadly took his own life.

[ShyTorque]

When the wings go faster than the fuselage something ain't right IMO.

No, that situation's perfectly OK. It's when the wings go slower than the fuselage that you really have to worry!

[camlobe]

ORAC,
Knew the man. A most pleasant and accommodating chap who wore his uniform proudly.

His words. Crewing up one day, he stopped at the base of the ladder, turned around, and made his apologies to his crew as he could not do this any longer. Cajoling by his crew and then stern words from his captain failed to dissuade him from his decision. Nor could words from S/L Pilots or OC 8.

A ground tour as Station Flight Safety Officer followed as did the appointment to I/C Station Open Day.

As you say, he later went to the Vickers Funbus.

The Station Open Day? An outstanding success with an international and domestic collection of static and flying displays that put RIAT to shame.

His complete candour and honesty in his reasoning why he couldn't continue flying with us was humbling and educating. His decision had been arrived at after many months of anxious deliberation and soul searching, but once made was irreversible.

He got a lot of stick from his fellow flying fraternity, but very little support locally. Fortunately for him, the RAF didn't give up on him.

Shy,
Your post brought a smile to my face:D...but I still don't like egg wisks.:O

Camlobe

[ShotOne]

It's good to hear the RAF didn't give up on him. Some airlines are very supportive but others completely ruthless. I strongly suspect this leads to the issue being seriously under-reported both in civil and military aviation.