Cathay SO lifestyle and work/life balance?

[hkguy]

Hi all! I recently came across the Cathay Cadet Pilot scheme and got quite excited. You see, I always had an interest in planes and piloting but forced myself to move on after I learned you need to either join the air force or pay a lot of money train yourself.

I know a lot of you have bad things to say about the scheme, but from the perspective of a wannabe with 0 flying hours who is not so young and doesn't have the money to pay for their own training, it looks pretty good. I live in HK and earn less than a second officer so no need to relocate and I am sure I can handle the payrise and other benefits which I do not get right now ;)

My main concern though is that the long haul lifestyle will be hard on my wife and the kids we plan to have within the next few years. I am quite a family-orientated guy and dread being away at the office for even 10-12 hours a day while I have a baby growing up and saying its first words etc. It does sound as though long-haul pilots get a considerable amount of full days off which does sound attractive though. I'm pretty much wasted every evening when I'm home from work so sometimes it feels like they have no benefit at all.

Can anybody give me a good idea of the kind of roster a Cathay SO would have. I have read all extremes on here and have even less of an idea now. I have read some people saying the layovers are far too short (meaning shorter trips away?), and I have also heard about being away for 2 weeks at a time? I guess a trip 'away' can consist of multiple short layovers, is this what is implied by the comments I've read? I read somewhere else that the average days away from base are 13 for a SE, 18 for a FO, and 15 for a captain. Any truth in this? 13 doesn't sound so bad. Even if it is all done in one 13 day trip, the idea of 2 full weeks off per month to be with the family and kids throughout the day AND evening sounds amazing.

As I am concerned about the long-haul job nature, I have also looked at the DragonAir/KA cadet programme. But I still have a few years (5) to wait before I get permanent HK ID, so I cannot apply for the KA/DragonAir cadet programme yet and it sounds like the future of KA as an airline is quite up in the air (no pun intended - in fact it would surely be the opposite, as in 'potentially not up in the air'). I will also be getting on age wise by then and probaby have kids which would make Adelaide harder.

Can anybody help me get a clearer picture of the SO lifestyle?

[Mr Instructor]

Hi there HKguy,

You seem to have a pretty good idea of what the SO lifestyle is about.
If you are a very family orientated man and want to see your kids growing then I'm affraid to say that perhaps becoming an airline pilot is not the best choice for you, specially doing the long haul stuff.
If staying near your family is very important to you and you still want to enjoy the freedom of the skies than perhaps you should consider a career with an airline that does mainly short haul flights. There you are more likely to sleep at home everyday.
These are only my opinions but I think that at the end of the day this is a very serious matter and it is something that you and your wife should spend some time discussing about.
All the best

[aile_striker]

Hi guys.. I would really like to know about this too. What is a normal flying pattern for a SO in Cathay?

Thanks.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Food for thought:

School woes for expats in Hong Kong – Business 360 - CNN.com Blogs (http://business.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/12/school-woes-for-expats-in-hong-kong/?iref=obinsite)

[sorvad]

HKguy...you will average 3 to 3 and a half trips per month plus the odd simulator duty every couple of months. each trip is usually 4 days leaving well after lunch on day 1 and returning very early in the morning on day 4...what this all really means is you will have about 18 to 20 days at home a month,

in terms of purely lifestyle the SO job is very very cushy, sadly though other aspects such as job satisfaction, seriously deteriorating conditions of service and woefully inadequate housing allowance for a family are issues which definitely need to be taken into account

Good luck though with whatever path you choose

[ReverseFlight]

sorvad is right on the money but don't forget you don't get a real TR and you don't get to fly the aircraft. Apart from that it's all good.

[brisdude]

I grew up as an expat pilot kid in HK and now beginning the long and second half initiated process towards a family.

All is good so far as schools if you are willing to pay $$$$.

Now look at the price of schools, cost of living, transport, cheap to buy a MPV - get ready to pay tolls and parking(!).

I personally could not imagine trying to support a family in HK on a SO salary (even a DESO would be in the same boat and a lot of FOs).

So far as rosters - depends still on fleet. Honestly with a child I would be thinking very, VERY hard - you cannot be too fussy, it is great for a single, young person but personally I would suggest against a cadetship with a child onboard.

CX is not the be all nor end all for a career in flying. It is very good for those that suit their method of entry. If not - I would suggest other methods of entry into the "bright and wonderful" career that is flying.:ok::ugh:

[atrpilot30]

Hey

I am also thinking about moving to HK together with my girlfriend. If I do it will be as a DESO in CX. But my concerns are as always is it possible to make a living for yourself and your girlfriend.

- Do anyone know if it is possible for European to get a job in HK in this case im thinking about my girlfriend. She does not have any special education?

- I have read somewhere that you have to pay tax of your forgivable loan and you have to pay tax two years in advance can anyone confirm this? And do you get the forgivable loan the day you start or at the end of your first year (think I read that somewhere in here?)

- Another thing I have been looking at houses to rent and found some apartments there is looking ok in Discovery Bay. The prices were around HKD 20.000 pr/month. Then I should have about HKD 20.000 left, in my mind it sound ok but can anyone tell me if that is right? Because I have no idea about what utilities cost (apartment) food, house insurance, and what else you have to pay for in HK.

I really appreciate if anyone could help with these questions.

Thanks for your help in advance

[SMOC]

- Do anyone know if it is possible for European to get a job in HK in this case im thinking about my girlfriend. She does not have any special education?

You need a HKID to work in HK, you'll get yours though CX, she will have to stay on a visitors visa or get sponsored to work and therefore get a HKID. On a visitors visa she will have to leave HK once a month, I'm not sure if a trip to Macau is acceptable anymore, but it used to do the trick.

- I have read somewhere that you have to pay tax of your forgivable loan and you have to pay tax two years in advance can anyone confirm this? And do you get the forgivable loan the day you start or at the end of your first year (think I read that somewhere in here?)

Tax is paid in arrears, but only a full tax year, so the problem is you arrive in HK and say only do 8 months of the tax year (ie not the full year from April 1 to March 31), the next year you do the full year and the tax bill arrives in the mail, it will consist of 8 months + 12 months + 6 months in advance (standard) = 2 yrs 2 months in this example, the next year you've already paid 6 months in advance so you will only owe 6 months + 6 months in advance = 12 months, and therefore you now just pay standard yearly tax, there is a slight difference as the 6 months in advance is a prediction so naturally carries a slight error. That first payment is a whopper so save for it from day one 16-20% put away is a good start.

- Another thing I have been looking at houses to rent and found some apartments there is looking ok in Discovery Bay. The prices were around HKD 20.000 pr/month. Then I should have about HKD 20.000 left, in my mind it sound ok but can anyone tell me if that is right? Because I have no idea about what utilities cost (apartment) food, house insurance, and what else you have to pay for in HK.

So to live on 20k subtract 16-20% of gross immediately for tax ie 8k so now you're on 12k which is probably my credit card bill every month, admittedly I charge virtually everything to it (including cash spent via octopus card, you'll learn what it is when you get here) I certainly don't live an extravagant (by western standards) lifestyle nor own a car.

I'm afraid you won't be able to live on what you've come up with. A local Chinese guy may but he's accustomed to his lifestyle and you and your girlfriend will be accustomed to yours there is a huge HUGE difference, you better scale back you're housing to 5-7k and think about sharing if you'd like to save any cash.

The problem also lies in the fact with an average of say 18 days off you've got nothing to do except spend cash. I have done the single guy days where I'd be happy if my credit card bill was under 20k dinner and a night on the town is easily 1-2k.

[atrpilot30]

Thanks for the answer Smoc really appreciated it.

Do you know if we get married does my girlfriend (wife) get the HKID then?

The papers I got from CX shows that I will be earning about HKD 48.600 a month everything included. Subtract 17% you get close to 40.000. So that was why I wrote I would have about 20K left when the apartment was paid.
The 16-20% you are talking about is that another form of tax?

What I can understand trough the correspondence with CX I would get about HKD 880.000 in forgivable loan. In your mind would it be a good idea to buy an apartment for a part of this money (I will remember to save some for tax :-)). Or will the interest be top high on the bank loan of the additional amount. Or is it better just to rent and then have the 880K (700K after tax) in backup to spend on daily needs the 4 years you are a SO?

Again thanks for the help.

[LazyEights]

ATRPilot - Do some more reading. You are not going to join as a DESO. You will join as a Cadet.

If you're girlfriend has no particular skills, she will find it VERY difficult to get a job as she will also need a work visa. No skills - no visa.

Yes you need to pay tax on your loan. Yes you pay double tax. Yes it will disappear into thin air.

20k /month in Hong Kong is peanuts to live on. Good luck. I have lived here a looong time and 20 grand vanishes. Especially when you are first starting out.

Buy an apartment with 880k? Not sure where you're going to do that. Top heavy interest in the bank? Clearly you have not done your homework and without that, you are venturing into very precarious territory.

Like I said, do some more reading and don't get blinded by the BS.

[SMOC]

Atr,

Looks like you've done some homework. The 20% I used is just to cover you're arse at tax time. Too much is better than too little otherwise you'll be approaching the bank for a tax loan, not a good start and not good to have when applying for a home loan.

Look here at property prices for Tung Chung.

Property Search - Square Foot (http://www.squarefoot.com.hk/search/?type=buy&area=4&district=118&price_min=&price_max=&size_min=700&size_max=1000&bedroom=&floor_zone=&layout=&keyword=&x=41&y=14)

Pictures of the view and/or the building usually mean crap apartments and think 700sf equals 65 square meters! For 4+ million HKD. How many sf or sm are you in now? To get a loan now I think is in the 30%??? deposit range so 1.2m plus stamp duty and agency costs it all adds up 880k won't cut it, send them an email they'll answer if they think your going to buy, spin some story saying your moving to HK.

God knows how the tax Dept is going to look at the 880k, your first tax bill could be over 300k 2yrs after you've joined. 12.5k per month tax 17k per month to save the 400k extra you need for a deposit 20k per month rent = 50k per month, air's free but it's crap waters not. You need to have cash saved or available you can't save for tax and for a deposit and pay rent. It's like an Airbus with Fuel/Pax & freight you can only choose two of the 3!

[atrpilot30]

Smoc

Again, thanks for you taking the time, know it has taking you some time to come up with all the info. Really appreciated it.

Hope I can give you a beer sometime in the future as thanks. I am going to HK in October for the final interview, if you have time maybe I could pay my debt to you there and maybe get a couple of pointers extra from you about living in HK.

I will defiantly send them an email and see what they come up with. But what I can read out of your post it seems like a better idea to rent a cheap place for the first year until you have a feeling about the tax and living expenses.

And yeah it is always about compromises :)

[uspilot]

But what I can read out of your post it seems like a better idea to rent a cheap place for the first year until you have a feeling about the tax and living expenses.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:....He is trying to show you... how bad this cadet T&C is..as it will break you not make you...but as always you guys read it, as you want to see it...good luck man....hate to say it but you guys really deserve what awaits you....:{

[SAABGUY]

I think saying that people deserve what they get is a bit harsh!!

What I'm interested in is how we get these conditions changed!

I've got an interview which I'm gonna do for the experience, but I'd be financially bloody destroyed if I came Honkers!!

It frustrates me that whilst I toiled away in GA and didn't have the experience for CX the T&C's were good, now that I've got a couple thousand hrs and a mortgage, it's highway bloody robbery!!:*

[Kezler]

Man! It's a crap shoot out there!

As the last post says, I am going to the interview for the experience and to have some questions answered (hopefully truthfully!) great to hear all the different views on here but have to think that with all the new planes coming, won't the SO's get upgraded a bit faster than 5 Years??? Where are they getting crews for new planes and replacing the old timers retiring? I know they've been telling the guys in very recent interviews that they can expect. Upgrade to FO in a year and a half to two years. BS? Hmmmmm.....decisions.....

[Captain Dart]

Many of the 'new planes' are replacements for the tired old workhorses that will be sold off or passed off to Dragonair; therefore there will not be a huge increase in crewing requirements. And the new ones will not stay shiny for long due to the corrosive filth in the South China air.

Also, retirement age is now 65 and CX captains are a relatively young demographic, so don't anticipate stepping into 'old timers' shoes any time soon.

By all means come up for the interview practice. You sound intelligent enough to filter out the BS written on these fora. Some posts here regarding company culture and cost of living are 'spot on'.

Enjoy your paid holiday in HKG. I think you'll find that three days in this place is enough, unless you are being paid A Scale!

[SloppyJoe]

I know they've been telling the guys in very recent interviews that they can expect. Upgrade to FO in a year and a half to two years.

This is total and utter BS! If anything they will stretch it out even further.

Guys upgrading now are doing OVER 4 years. These are people who mostly had 3000+ hours when they joined, get housing allowance so are not just looking for hours so they can leave, have a P2X rating that the HKCAD frowns upon being used for more than 4 years, work in a company where on 4 crew aircraft there is only ONE SO.

In about a year and a half the situation will be. Mostly people who joined with 0 to very little experience. Get practically no housing so will be looking to jump ship ASAP but need JFO hours to be able to. Have another rating (talk of P1X) that is just as useless but will make the HKCAD happy for its indefinate use. Now this is the big one, will work in a company where on 4 crew aircraft there are TWO SOs.

In my opinion guys joining now will be doing 6 years as an SO so 9 years before you can leave with some descent experience. Why would they upgrade you! After 6 years you have forgiven your loan, have 1000+ hours in a wideody and hate Hong Kong as have never had the money to have fun there. They will lose you sooner if they upgrade you.

If they keep you as an SO for 6+ years they get a reduced cost pilot who can't leave. They dont have to pay by pass pay when they hire a DEFO ahead of you as you wont be assessed until a few months before your upgrade. By keeping you as an SO they have nothing to lose but everything to gain. They do not need to increase your conditions as you are stuck. Once SOs become FOs they will have to either accept the large loss of pilots to other carriers or increase the pay. It a no brainer, a LONG time as an SO.

[quadspeed]

I know they've been telling the guys in very recent interviews that they can expect. Upgrade to FO in a year and a half to two years.

The AOA just asked management about this, as it seems interviewers have been creative and rather misleading to new recruits . Here is the quote from the 24th August AOA update.

It has recently been brought to the AOA’s attention that some of the cadets returning from Adelaide have reportedly been led to expect 18 month SO tenures as part of an “Accelerated JFO program.” Naturally, with 324 Second Officers presently on the Seniority List, and current JFO courses being allocated around the 4 year mark, rumors of such a programme has given cause for concern about possible bypassing of seniority amongst present Second Officers.

After discussing the matter with the HKAOA, the DFO recently made it clear that no such programme exists and all Second Officers will upgrade in Seniority as per their CoS.

If all the stars align, it may come down to 36 months. Nothing is indicating that the stars are even close to aligning, and nothing is motivating the company to attempt an alignment.

[Kezler]

Recruiters saying that guys who accept the deal that have some jet time or at least some hours (3000+) can expect to be put ahead of guys with less time for the FO positions. These are words right out of mouth of recruiters in the last couple of months.

They seem to describe some sort of scale in the SO pool, A, B, C and D that you will be placed in depending on your experience. They are saying that seniority number will not affect your promotion to JFO but will be looked at for further promotions.

Can ANYONE confirm or deny this? I've seen schemes like this in previous companies. I'd love to hear what current SO's think about this. Just a wannabe myself but I want to know what they are promising and if they have intention of honoring it. The more information I can arm myself with, the better off for the interview. Thanks.

[Kezler]

Not sure what that means. I understand your point but I'm asking for specific information. I know you think they want to load up the SO pool with willing suckers on a sub standard contract, trust, me I can read all the posts. What I'm asking, is if there is any truth to the matter of giving new SO pilots, priority over others due to experience. It's a simple question. I'd appreciate any informed opinions. Thank you again. K

[GTC58]

By now everyone should know that CX's expansion for the coming year will significantly slow down, so will be the upgrade times for SO's. I am pretty sure crew planning is presently revising pilot recruitment targets as we speak.

[GTC58]

Kezler

The HKAOA received in writing from the director of flight operations that all future SO to JFO upgrades are in seniority order. Hope that answers your question.

[Kezler]

It does, thank you very much! Appreciate the info. K