Man ‘chokes to death eating Jetstar meal’

[ejectx3]

see below for link :eek::bored:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

This should make the link easier to follow -

Man 'chokes to death eating Jetstar meal' | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/man-chokes-to-death-eating-jetstar-meal/story-e6frf7jx-1226129020913)

[nitpicker330]

Bloody hell that's not good. :sad:

[ozangel]

Did the cabin crew even bother to help this time? Or is it again a case of them not knowing the first thing about first aid, despite what the company says.

[JohnMcGhie]

I would have thought a doctor (there was one, he pronounced the man dead...) would have been able to save a choking victim if breathing were stopped for less than five minutes.

So it seems it took them a fair while to find the doctor and get him or her on the job.

Since this sort of thing seems often to happen in expensive restaurants, I shall avoid any remarks about Jetstar meals and brown dogs...

[7378FE]

A sad event but it happens on all airlines now and again.

Did the cabin crew even bother to help this time? Or is it again a case of them not knowing the first thing about first aid, despite what the company says.


He was pronounced dead 90 minutes into the 11-hour flight from Singapore to Auckland.


There was obviously a suitable doctor on board.

[ratpoison]

The unfortunate chap was apparently placed in the rear seat of Star Class......sorry, 'Business Class' that is used for Tech Crew rest and the curtain placed around him for another 10 hours. With the obvious loss of bodily fluids, apparently these amateurish halfwits don't even carry body bags on long haul flights. :D

[Ken Borough]

don't even carry body bags on long haul flights.

I don't hold any brief for Jetstar but can you tell us which carriers routinely carry body bags on longhaul flights?

Rather than put the body in a curtained seat for the remainder of the flight, would diversion to a suitable Australian airport for offoad etc have been a more appropriate and dignified response?

[SMOC]

CX have body bags on every A/C.

[Veruka Salt]

You beat me to it SMOC.

[ratpoison]

can you tell us which carriers routinely carry body bags on longhaul flights?
Yes Ken, by all means. Let's start with Singapore, Emirates, Etihad, BA and I believe Cathay do as well.

Toodles :p

[Wizofoz]

EK carry body bags, and haver procedures in place for death on board.

It is pretty dire for a long haul operation to not do so.

And no, a diversion is not a usual response-it's not like it is going to help them any!

[Exaviator]

Begs the question why nobody, including the crew applied the (http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=k2k&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&ei=lgRjTtXqEYOXiAeZ-rm0Cg&ved=0CCAQvwUoAQ&q=Heimlich+maneuver&spell=1)Heimlich Maneuver. Had to do it once in LAX to my Flight Engineer who had swallowed a piece of steak without first chewing it sufficiently. Worked like a charm.

Whilst we had him checked out at the local hospital to ensure there was no brain damage due to oxygen starvation he was able to crew the return flight. :ok:


(http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=k2k&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&ei=lgRjTtXqEYOXiAeZ-rm0Cg&ved=0CCAQvwUoAQ&q=Heimlich+maneuver&spell=1)

[Nose wheel first]

Air NZ carry body bags too... or did. I can't see why they wouldn't now.

I was shift supervisor on morning in AKL a few years ago and had a pax arrive in a bag. Deceased somewhere over Fiji on the way back from LAX if I remember correctly.

I guess if you have no body bags on board (:ugh::ugh:) you have to do something with the poor pax, but I sure hope they change the seat! :eek:

[teresa green]

Ozangel, that really is in poor taste. I witnessed a lady have a heart attack on a JQ flight to Japan, and the crew acted quickly, efficiently and with care. The crew that were working the aircraft with this gentleman would have been devastated, would have done all they could, to assist the doctor on board. I can only assume you are QF and ever ready to put the boot in. Sometimes its just inappropriate. (Oh, and the lady survived as far as I know)

[Boomerang_Butt]

Ratpoison, would you rather they just left him on the galley floor, to be stepped over for the remainder of the flight? Placing the deceased in a J class seat is a far more dignified response, sure there's cleanup to be done later but in this case I think a ruined seat is a better alternative than treating him like so much cargo.... :=

The article does not specify but it is very possible that there were other complications/issues going on here. Don't be so quick to judge the crew! Just as people here always say don't hang the pilot til you knowt he full story...

[ozangel]

Choking to death on a Jetstar flight would have to rank highly as one of the worst ways to go.

My sister and brother-in-law, both doctors, were on their honeymoon in December last year, and were gobsmacked at the lack of training amongst the cabin crew. They were called upon in-flight, and volunteered. Not before first realising something was wrong and offering to help - to be told 'no problem, can I get you a drink?' (as my sister returned from the toilet). Some 30mins later, the crew completely forgot they had already offered, and put out a PA.

Their observations:
1) The call for help came WAY too late, and of the first aid equipment was available, the staff had no confidence in either locating it or using it. When they finally were able to attend to the patient, nothing had been done.
2) Basic first aid knowledge was non-existent amongst the crew (no recovery position - they had done nothing - but they had offered to get the patient something to eat?? - not diabetic?)
3) It took the crew members some 10 minutes to locate a supplemental oxygen bottle - they were observed opening just about every stowage in sight looking for it! God help them if the cabin lost pressure!
4) Communication of the issue to the flight deck was NON EXISTENT, despite the advice that the patient required urgent/critical treatment.

These are two doctors who are very familiar with aviation health - coming from an aviation family, and dad is a DAME. They know very well what Australian cabin crew have to go through with training, and given her brother (me) has dealt with more than his fair share of serious medical emergencies (stroke, heart attack, epilepsy to name a few), she knew that on Qantas, Ansett (back when), Virgin, the passengers were in good hands.

Although doctors deal with this stuff in the same, clinical way, pilots and cabin crew deal with emergencies - it is still upsetting for them, and in this case, nothing short of frustrating and angering. ESPECIALLY when they volunteer and EXPOSE themselves to litigation.

The kicker - they didn't even get thanked by the crew, who after eventually finding an oxygen bottle - went to the galley to have their dinner!!

Add to that, when the ambulance officers asked the crew who the doctors were who helped, the crew couldnt remember, and it was the patients wife who had to identify them.

The patient lived (luckily, im told) and both he and his wife were the only ones who thanked them.

Edited to add: Teresa Green - I enjoy reading your posts, hopefully you'll understand why this kind of thing angers me. No, although I did work there for a short time a few years ago, i'm not QF, and left on good terms. I'm sorry if you think it's in poor taste, but despite your positive experience (were they Aust based crew?), I really think this is something that needs to be further investigated. I don't trust management speak that everyone is trained up to scratch. If they are, then it would appear that there are a lot who don't have the confidence to use their training.

[Boomerang_Butt]

Ozangel, if you are QF group you'd know if a PA for medical help is made that usually signifies Medlink involvement (if reachable) Medlink generally cover assisting medical staff (provided they have appropriate ID- was this checked- you don't mention) in which case your sister wouldn't be exposing herself to litigation...

Unless that has changed, but I am not aware that is has.

[Artificial Horizon]

Actually there was a news report on this in New Zealand this morning. Both the Doctor that attended and the poor chaps wife 'praised' Jetstar and the crew for the professional action that was taken. Just because it was Jetstar doesn't mean it was a debacle.

And by the way, BA does NOT carry body bags, do a google search and you will find an incident from around 4 years ago when a few passengers were miffed because a 'corpse' was placed in the rear row of business class on a flight from the Caribbean because the aircraft was full in economy.

[skybed]

red tail does also not carry body bags.:ugh:

[Captain Gidday]

Begs the question why nobody, including the crew applied the Heimlich Maneuver.

The Heimlich Maneuver is no longer regarded as the best intervention for an obstruction in the windpipe. Most authorities changed their advice about five years ago.

[stubby jumbo]

Most authorities changed their advice about five years ago.

Make that at least 10 years ago.

Nothing beats the old wack .......fair and square between the shoulder chops with full force.

This (hopefully) should dislodge any foreign object from the throat.

[ratpoison]

Boomerang.

Go back and reread the post. You obviously have an issue with basic comprehension. At no point is it mentioned that I took the piss out of the cabin crew for placing the body up the front.

The amateurish halfwits are the management, structure and system that refuse to provide basic 'tools' for crew to do their job. To have a dead body sitting in a seat for nearly eleven hours leaking bodily fluids when passing right across a first world country with appropriate facilities is not only a disgrace, but a serious health issue. It would be a different kettle of fish if they were sitting in the middle of the Pacific. :ugh:

[Icarus2001]

No disrespect to the deceased but I would have thought that locked in a toilet with some judicious and careful use of restraints would be better than in the passenger cabin, leaking fluids.

[Ero-plano]

Ahhhh, disapointented again to read the headline and realise it wasn't one of the two CEO's or a board member.

Its a sad passing to the passenger involved and his partner. I'm sure the crew did all they could with the limited resources offered on a plane in flight.

[NIK320]

That's a bit of an effort to get a body strapped to the lav.
You could put a few infant belt's together but you still dont really have an anchor point to strap him to.

Doubt it would be appreciated if you popped him on the loo unrestrained and just closed the door.

[Exaviator]

Captain Gidday wrote:

The Heimlich Maneuver is no longer regarded as the best intervention for an obstruction in the windpipe. Most authorities changed their advice about five years ago. Well it was over 15 years ago that I used it, but then again nothing in life is constant, except change itself. The bottom line is that at the time it worked.:)

[teresa green]

I have "logged" 17 deaths and three babies born in my career, and each one was incredibly traumatic for the cabin crew. TAA did carry body bags for a while, but where to put them was always a problem. We had one Captain die, and one Flight Engineer, so just left them where they were until arrival, but dreadful for the F/O, and ditto for the crew of the deceased Flighty. The births were just as traumatic, but joyful in the end, one little bloke made his appearance over Glen Innes, so was immediately named Glen, the other two were girls, and both named after the cabin managers who fortunately were both trained nursing sisters. Interesting to note that upon each birth there was a hat sent around to collect from pax and crew and all contributed happily for the bewildered but thankful parents.

[Boomerang_Butt]

Ratpoison,

My apologies. Your phrasing came across as critical when you said "another 10 hours", like it was too long for the guy to be left there... I posted tired and misread it. (Still no reason to make insults about my intelligence; asking me to re-read would have sufficed btw.)

If you'd clarified then that the "amateurish halfwits" you're referring to are Management then I would agree. But that's for another thread.

Placing someone in a lav is strictly prohibited in the manual. We were told in ground school that this was learnt the hard way when bodies then became completely lodged & immovable without great effort (and damage) due to rigor mortis- even taking off the doors wasn't enough in some cases. Also, putting someone in a lav is hardly respectful. As hard as it may be on the other pax, a seat/row of seats is the best option.

While QF don't carry a mortality kit, they do have a bodily fluids kit which could be utilised to minimise any spillage. However, I agree that they should have them, at least on the long haul fleet.

The issue of not having anywhere dedicated is a space/utilisation one; as far as I know SQ is the only airline in the world to have opted for a specific place to carry a deceased body (I have seen it). Not even EK have this, and they have the highest rate of onboard deaths of any airline worldwide. (Mainly due to the routes & pax numbers that they fly, before any of you freak out about flying with them)

I have heard it said that in many cases where a doctor has pronounced death, it is often the best option to carry on to the intended destination, as the bereaved family would usually have arrangements in place for accommodation and/or relatives there, whereas diverting could traumatise them even further, being in an unintended and unfamiliar place. Ditto on the other pax who are probably also traumatised if they witnessed, as wel las other considerations (yes commercial in some cases, others may be things like access to company staff to offer support, EAP programs in airline bases as opposed to outstations, availability of replacement crew instead of expecting the already upset crew to wait for the pax to be handed over, if the diversion airport is not a company port and/or understaffed. Of course the ideal would be to divert but I don't think it would always necessarily be the best option...

[ratpoison]

No probs Boomer, lets assume we've had a big cuddle and all forgiven. Ditto for being tired as well mate. This game is all becoming a little too much work and no play.:p

[TBM-Legend]

The victim had a previous heart condition according to his family...

[blacksmoke]

From what I have heard, he had a previous heart problem, and initial thoughts are he had a heart attack.Once again the media have made a mess of this. The Dr was onto him very quickly, and the crew did a very good job. The body was taken out of view and placed in a crewrest area. The girlfriend asked to stay with the deceased until landing in Akl. As jetstar /qantas don't carry body bags, they managed a bad situation very well. (yes they do have spill/fluid response kits, but they were not needed)
No I don't work with this mob, but I do know the crew involved, and overall they managed it very well.

[Exaviator]

Boomerang_Butt Wrote:

as far as I know SQ is the only airline in the world to have opted for a specific place to carry a deceased body (I have seen it).On June 18th 1991 I was in command of an SQ flight Rome to Bangkok with a flight time of 10.5 hours. The aircraft was a 747-300 series with a "J" Class Upperdeck.

Just over two hours into the flight we experienced a medical emergency which quickly ended in death of the passenger.

With a full flight and no spare seats available I ordered my IFS to have the body wrapped in blankets and moved to the crew bunk, which was located in a compartment at the rear of the upperdeck cabin.

On arrival Bangkok it took over two hours for me to deal with the ensuing paperwork, police and health department.

I heard later that a rumour had spread that from that day on the aircraft was considered haunted and some of the local crew would no longer use the bunk.

Maybe SQ's current policy is designed to avoid any future ghosts :hmm:

[kotoyebe]

According to a report I just heard on the radio, it appears that JQ carry defribilators onboard, and this was used to try and revive the patient...unfortunately to no avail in this instance.

[QueenBuzzzzz]

A defib is no help whatsoever if someone's heart has stopped. It will only work if the heart is suspended in a fibrillating state. I feel for everyone involved, I am sure they did the best they could.

[deadhead]

It is possible to restart a heart that is in asystole using a defibrillator provided other interventions (e.g. intra-cardiac adrenaline, CPR) are also applied with absolutely no delay, and the cause of the asystole is known. In this case that would be unlikely, but it is a moot point, because if asystole has just occurred, it is impossible to diagnose without an ECG observation of a "flat line". A combination of CPR and intra-cardiac drugs can induce a rhythm that will respond to defibrillation. Many onboard defibrillators are automatic and don't have the same functionality (including ECG monitoring) as clinical defibrillators, therefore if asystole was present, the crew would not have known it, so the attempt to restart the heart using a defibrillator was appropriate.

[Boomerang_Butt]

No probs Rat. Seems in this case there WERE more elements at play than the media suggested (surprise surprise)

In my opinion it's not a good idea to use bunks for this purpose as the crew should have access to them should the need arise (very likely after an event like this- they would need somewhere to take some time apart if indeed the flight did not divert and it was a long one.) Or, to discuss things with the family in privacy if there is nowhere else suitable.

Allowing the family member to remain with the body is always recommended if possible; it helps the acceptance and grieving process. It seems to me that some comments on media articles think they forced her to do this or it was a bad idea.
In cases where the person has had to be placed in a galley area, the family member would always be allowed to remain there so long as it was safe to do so- so they would go back to their seat for landing.

If medical professionals were involved they would hold a discussion with the family after the event (time permitting) to explain what actions were taken and why, and explain why the person could not be saved if that is the case.

Seems to me that everyone did exactly what they should have done, on the information that we have to hand. I think it's extremely uncalled for to make comments about the (lack of) ability of the crew since we clearly don't have the full story here.

[QueenBuzzzzz]

Deadhead, I wan't implying the use of the defib was inappropriate, quite the contrary. I was just pointing out that the machine will only give a shock if it can pick up some activity and in this case, it appears there wasn't any. I would ALWAYS commence CPR, I would NEVER assume anything. I know we carry adrenaline on QF, but I believe MedLink need to okay the use to a registered physician before they are able to use it, which I guess defeats the purpose in this situation??? BTW, I heard a rumour a few years back that crew on a EK flight were forced to perform CPR for several hours bc the Captain was unwillingly to call the death..... any truth to this? Apparently the crew were given a few months of leave to deal with the effect this had on them.

[Jabawocky]

Apparently the crew were given a few months of leave to deal with the effect this had on them.

What????

I have done this for an hour myself.....and failed:{ and i did not need two months off work. And the patient was my father, I was 22 at the time.

[ABX]

deadhead,
It is possible to restart a heart that is in asystole using a defibrillator provided other interventions (e.g. intra-cardiac adrenaline, CPR) are also applied...
Asystole is not shockable. If effective CPR is applied and some elctrical activity returns (by definition, the heart is no longer in asystole), then a shock me be of use.

The AEDs used by first-aiders will not recommend a shock for asystole.

ABX:ok:

[standard unit]

The AEDs used by first-aiders will not recommend a shock for asystole

The ones QF carry won't shock for asystole.

[priapism]

Correct - most AED's will only shock if they detect ventricular fibrillation (VF), or ventricular tachycardia (VT) above a certain rate. As a paramedic I have done dozens of cardiac arrests , asystole (flatline), VF, VT, etc. If the AED did not recommend a shock then it is likely the patient was in Asystole or pulseless electrical activity consistent with exanguination, asthma, tension pnuemothorax etc. In an asystole arrest CPR ,ventilation and IV adrenaline are the priorities. As deadhead said , sometimes adrenaline will change the cardiac rhythm to one that can be defibrillated. In all the Asystole arrests I have done only 1 has walked out of hospital and that was because the response time was less than 2 minutes, CPR was in progress when we arrived and he was young enough. It was a narcotic overdose. We get plently that we restore cardiac output on via adrenaline , defibrillation and a few other drugs but nearly always they die later in hospital from hypoxic brain injuries. By the way - I will be interested to hear if it actually was a choking. Arresting patients usually have a short convulsion caused by hypoxia to the brain. It is often appears as if the patient is choking. The poor guy had a fairly significant underlying cardiac history with chronic heart valve problems so this is what might have killed him.

[givemewings]

Queen Buzz,

I think this is just a galley gossip story. A pilot is not qualified to call/pronounce/certify death. The Captain can provide advice to the crew if s/he thinks that continuing would put them n danger (for example, imminent landing) however that is the extent of their input aside from if they are diverting or not.

EK have a procedure which outlines when/if to cease CPR. It is quite possible if CPR is being performed using the AED, if the AED keeps advising to shock, then CPR could well go for some time as the crew are not permitted to stop if the AED says to keep going.

Only a doctor can pronounce death; it must then be certified when landing at either a diversion or the intended port. Medlink can advise whether to continue CPR, and there are several other criteria which when met means that CPR can be stopped. I would hazard a guess that most airlines have a similar procedure in place.

Leave would be given but I doubt it would be that long for ALL of the crew, maybe one or two if they had a very adverse reaction; that would be decided by the company medical staff and/or the EAP staff.

[ABX]

Priapism, I wondered if you were a paramedic when I first saw your name (ages ago). Its paramedic kind of humour. You're a brave man taking that name!:ok:

ABX

Ps. I guess a cold shower wont work huh?:}

[QueenBuzzzzz]

Yes, seemed to me an unlikely story, however, it was from a participating member's mouth and it was before joining QF, so I believed it! I was horrified that they were made to continue CPR... on a different note, I have had to perform CPR on an overdose "customer".... the paramedics arrived, they called the ambos and they administered Narcane... the "patient" came around (blue lips and all ), he got pissed that we'd taken away his "high" ( and his schooner ), he shook himself off and minced out of the pub....with his middle finger stuck in the air....

[givemewings]

Lol, sounds about right!!!! SOme of them aren't grateful at all for the assistance...

Well, it could have been prior to the medlink days I suppose, or, what they descrobe as hours could have been between 1 to 2... I am sure no matter the duration it probably feels like hours at the time. Having been involved in a couple of emergency situations, one instance I was sure the incident occured over about five minutes; later, an onlooker told me it had taken less than 30sec. So quite possible for them to later describe it as hours. The longest I've heard CPR ongoing was for around an hour 45, but that was with a dr present who advised them to keep going, as drugs were being administered. As Priapism explained, it would depend on the circumstances and the medics would know whether it was worth continuing or not.

I wonder if the media will publish an updated version of the story, explaining all this extra info about the patient's pre-existing conditons? I doubt it.

[F.Nose]

Ozangel wrote

Although doctors deal with this stuff in the same, clinical way, pilots and cabin crew deal with emergencies - it is still upsetting for them, and in this case, nothing short of frustrating and angering. ESPECIALLY when they volunteer and EXPOSE themselves to litigation.

It appears that exposing oneself to litigation when rendering assistance might be a one of those urban myths. In fact it would appear that one might be more liable for failing to assist. Read more http://www.ofaat.com.au/Images/documents/good_samaritans_volunteers.pdf

[Counter-rotation]

There seems to be people commenting here with a degree of medical knowledge well ahead of mine. Maybe they can correct me if I'm wrong, but:

I have been told that resus in a non-hospital environment is actually successful in less than 10% of cases. I personally feel for the crew involved in this situation.

I also have seen in person, and via anecdotal evidence from good sources, the SEVERE LACK of training for Jetstar CC. To state the obvious, though I think it is worth doing - that is not the fault of the CC themselves. I have been thrown into situations with poor training myself in the past - at times you simply don't realise how unprepared you are at the time. It's only later, when you get good training, or heaven forbid when something does go really wrong, that you get a really good appreciation. But by then it's too late...

CR.

[ABX]

Counter-rotation, only about half (or less) of those patients ambos perform cpr on walk out of hospital. Many times the paramedics keep them going with drugs, defib and cpr, but they have underlying medical conditions that they do not survive. When cpr is performed by non-medical personel the figure is pretty low. 10% might be right.

I know my first attempt at cpr on a real person as a young and proud first-aider was not successful and it bothered me for a while.

ABX

[moremj2]

This brings a whole new twist to having inflight "Service".....

By the way....does anyone know what meal he was consuming??
(Just so i know which one to avoid!):=

[teresa green]

MoreMJ2, don't know, but what I do know that JQ serves the best meat pies in Star Class that I can remember, and if I shove off this mortal coil eating one of those, and a good glass of Margaret River Red in the hand well I will die a happy man. Eh, just don't shove me in the John, the crew rest will do nicely.