TURKISH A340 SKID OF RWY AT VABB

[rednav]

This morning a Turkish Airlines A340 skidded of RWY 27 trying to vacate on TWY N8.
Everyone is safe no injuries.

[RoyHudd]

Surprising. The runway and taxiway conditions at Bombay are of the highest standard, as indeed are the skills of my colleagues from the land of Kemel. Such things do happen. Let us wait for the official report, assuming one is duly issued by the objective and unbiased local authorities.

[Punchespilot]

Hudd, Do you honestly think we are "going to wait for the offical report"

This is a disscussion board. Get with it man !

[kotakota]

Cochin , Mumbai , and..............?
No doubt the tower 'ordered' Turkish to vacate at N8 , they normally do this after you have configured for your landing , no time to increase flap or autobrake settings .
Tis the season to be skiddy , take care in the monsoon chaps . Don't try the impossible .

[BOAC]

If so, I wonder if there is a word in Turkish for 'Unable' (or 'Standby' and then 'Say again' as you pass NB:O)?

[iceman50]

I think Roy was being sarcastic / ironic.

[chai ja]

I hope Roy was being sarcastic................

[LukeA346]

BBC News - Turkish Airlines plane skids off runway in India (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14758870)

[Analyser]

The A340 has come to rest between N7 and N8.The nose gear of the A340 is about 20 feet into the grass and looks like there is no damage to the engines.
The lighting is there for both N7 and N8 showing them as HST.Mumbai has been experiencing heavy showers with visibility dropping to about 700RVR with heavy showers.
Only Runway 14 was in use(Minima 1.4) and visibility being reported as 1100 with RVR of 1600M.Medium to poor braking was also reported for this runway and led to a few diversions including Speedbird 199 to VOHS.

[Analyser]

Here is a video of the stranded aircraft

Apologies for the size and quality:O

Turkish A340 Overrun - YouTube

[VT-RST]

Heres the shot of "Izmir", operating as TK-720 from IST, that veered off the Runway after landing on VABB/BOM's Primary Rwy 27

http://images3.jetphotos.net/img/3/4/3/7/85120_1314977734_tb.jpg (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=7186409)

The location of the Aircraft Recovery Kit that was shipped by AI to COK is not known. Till I was there, they were using L&T Earth Movers / Excavators to excavate nearby ground (wheel tracks), and lay down the Metal planks/plates to bring the Aircraft back on the Rwy.

UPDATE: Heavy Rains ON for the past half an hour or so. I hope the rescue ops don't get delayed, as 14-32 is already thought to be challenging by many folks here, and an AIX captain friend of mine. And its short! :(

[merlinxx]

Is it grooved & how long afore the landing was a friction test done ????

[captjns]

Friction test in India!?!?!?:} HAHAHAH... damn gotta wipe the coffee of my keyboard:{.

[VT-RST]

@captjns: Dear captain, GVK - CSIA, the operators of BOM Airport, had acquired the Saab Friction Test Vehicle about 2 years back. Things are not the same as when AAI used to handle the Airport.

[Capt Turbo]

captjns....and I wasted a good dry martini trying to wipe the tears off my eyes.

The fact remains that considering the amount and type of traffic and ATC, BOM is still one of the most challenging (read: dangerous) airports around. Only if you operate there on daily basis you get num to that fact.

To make the challenge even more interesting, BOM has devised minimum runway occupancy time procedures, requesting widebodys to exit at RET N8.
AIP declared distance from displaced THR RWY 27 : 2.052 m.

Regularly, when we land our widebody on 27, ATC will order us during rollout to exit via N7 (1.574m).

Then add a little - or a lot of - rain, the usual unreported tailwind and the common fuel-saving reduced landing flaps, and you will be in the soup.

If at any place in the world, BOM is where you have to exercise your captaincy. Forget fuel saving, forget the wx report, forget ATC and MROTP, forget soft landings and idle reverse; just stay on the tarmac and give the pax, what they paid for - a flight where they exit via the aerobridge and not via the slides.

Roy: I like your dark sense of humour....
VT-RST: Good to hear that they have a SAAB, then nothing can go wrong now, right? (When do they start revealing the results, you think?)

You all stay safe you there..

T.

[misd-agin]

I hate it when we have to increase the a/b setting. That involves so much effort sometimes I think it's safer to go-around, rebrief the landing, and then start the approach all over again.

[captjns]

In my 36 years, I've never taken extraordinary means to vacate a runway to accomodate a following aircraft in rainy low visibility conditions. The safety of my operation comes before anything else. By the way... isn't that why god invented TCAS to govern distance for following aircraft.

I politely have the FO tell ATC to $hit in their hats when requested vacate the runway when I deem to be unsafe after configured for landing.

I've never subscribed to the "Blind Obedience" doctine.

[Hotel Tango]

I've never subscribed to the "Blind Obedience" doctine.

Perhaps it's a matter of perception? In my book when ATC states something along the lines of "if able, vacate at XX - traffic 3 miles behind", it is not a command but a request with the reason appended. If you're unable then so be it. Just remember that major airports have a lot of tin to move around and, guess what, pilots and airlines don't like delays! ATC do their best to keep the traffic moving but do not expect you to blindly comply and compromise safety in the process.

[westhawk]

Once in the flare it's a little late for ATC ask for specific exit points in my opinion. "unable" is often the appropriate response. I don't want to make the following traffic go around either, so why not a nice "plan minimum time on the runway" while still far enough out to be helpful?

[Patty747400]

misd-agin

Love that! You beat me to it. More than once I've at 500 feet suggested to copilots to increase or decrease autobrake setting due to a change in conditions. Some seems totally perplexed...

If you can't fly an approach and ask the other pilot to turn a switch at the same time you're probably in the wrong profession.

[weido_salt]

There ya go. This is what happens when pilots haven't sat and passed the Indian Air Force medical examination. :}

[tribo]

http://www.aai.aero/public_notices/48-2009.pdf

[safetypee]

tribo, perhaps you forgot to stress the point that this friction testing is for runway maintenance purposes only and thus has little or no relevance to flight operations except where the runway is declared ‘Slippery When Wet’.

A better operational reference giving a wide range of information on the problems of reduced friction operations are at:-
Winter Operations, Friction Measurements and Conditions for Friction Predictions - Executive Summary (http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/content/bookDetails.php?bookId=1492)
Winter Operations, Friction Measurements and Conditions for Friction Predictions - Main Body (http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/content/bookDetails.php?bookId=1493)
Winter Operations, Friction Measurements and Conditions for Friction Predictions - Appendices A-Z (http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/content/bookDetails.php?bookId=1494)

[Capt Turbo]

Thanks for the informative links.
A design mu-value of .74 on a wet runway and rectification at .47? In your dreams!
But here we go again: On paper the Subcontinent is the safest, most advanced and well organized place in the world. A far cry from what you experience when going about your daily business (even when you have passed the Indian Class 1 medical :}).
Old buggers like captjns know when to say no and do the needful; the worrying part is that with an inexperienced pilot community and a culture, where the CP can single out individual pilots by running the flight recorder, only few pilots dare use their brain when conditions are deteriorating. If the CP says "min auto brake, idle reverse, reduced landing flaps, RET N7", so be it, even when it defies law of nature.
Result: Too many near-mishaps that you only hear about in the bar during layovers. Because the culture also dictates that nothing comes out in the open unless it cannot be swept under the carpet....:ugh:
T

[By George]

I have not flown into BOM for a few years but RWY 27 was one of those runways that never seemed to have good braking action in the wet. Manila 06 was another one that use to worry me in heavy rain, watched a Fed-Ex DC-10 go off the end there. Also 27 BOM has a steep glide-path and unable to couple up the auto-pilot (heaven forbid).

[soullimbo]

btw, I am surprised Turkish airways didn't make it in the Air Transport Rating Agency's list of the safest airlines last week having had a good look at the creme de la creme of safe airlines...
Anyway thank allah this ended well.

[Speed Freak]

my views...
turkish normally operates a 330-200/300 into bombay and i was surprised to know it was a 340 that was involved in this incident...i feel this was a one off day that they got the 340....so maybe it was a crew who were coming into land for the first time into bombay...would have been holding for the runway to open after the scheduled runway closure for 30 min every night...must have landed and atc would have asked confirm able n7 (which they do with me everytime while i am abeam n7 and having no intention of vacating via that) ...they would have said no and would be feeling this guy wants us to vacate and looking for n8.....and in the confusion with the rain and a first time visit to a field and the rapid exit taxi lightings, they would have just taxiied into the grass thinking its the taxitrack....because that is exactly what it looks like...

as for the people doing reduced flap landings into bombay for fuel savings our company policy doesnt allow us for a reduced flap landing on glideslope > 3.15 degrees...(vabb being 3.3) and on wet/contaminated runways....

during my training days i would end up being too fast for n7 and too slow for n8 and then would here shouts of expediting by the atc......so now its idle reverse on a dry runway with very gentle braking for n8 always...i dont try for n7 unless there is a 10kt headwind and a very light 319....and for wet runway...i am not legally allowed to land...so......

[FullWings]

I've found BOM 27 "challenging" in the dry, let alone wet, not least because there always seems to be an unreported tailwind. I use brakes 3/4, full flap and full reverse, plus make sure we're good up to 15kts tail on the perf...

[CDRW]

Treat Bom with the utmost respect. The very operation into Bom has a few of the holes in the swiss cheese model already lined up. ATC, 3.3 degree glide slope, reverted rubber both ends, displaced threshold. Low level smoke/smog ( from the cooking fires in the nearby villages). Add to this heavy rain and gusting Xwinds, tankering in, and there are only one or two more layers of protection before an incident / accident. Going in there, wet and heavy the landing is industrial, autobrake 4 or more (777) full reverse and into manual braking. Bring it rapidly down to taxi speed - don't even think of "rolling out" to the end as just when you need the brakes towards the end of the rwy to slow you from 40kts you encounter the reverted rubber from 09 !!

Well that's my thoughts after 22 years of Bom ops. Who can remember crappers corner??

[coolkiller13]

Being as a thy captain i have to correct one thing, Turkish airlines is using the A340/A330s as mix fleet and they are operated by the same crew members.so flying there for the first time is not the issue on this incident.

[Speed Freak]

apologies...

[coolkiller13]

No preblem:)

[A380 Jockey]

Used to operate to BOM when N7 was 'C' and N8 was 'D'. Operated there some 25 to 30 years ago for a good many years. NOTHING's changed in all these years except the taxiway designators and a new ils frequency. And in all of these years operating medium to heavies,I have never ever vacated via N7. Whether instructed or commanded by ATC. ALways used full length or N8.
In min ROT required operations,it is easier to use a lower AB setting and actually let the aircraft roll all the way close to the next exit while decelerating manually a tad harsher than normal so as to reduce runway occupancy time. Worked for me all these years.
Of course,now on the Super I don't operate to BOM and don't need to worry about exits. What with Brake to vacate taking over..
:cool:

[ea340]

captjns well said in my case 39 years . We must be old

[Phantom Driver]

Who can remember crappers corner?? Now, nostalgia ain't what it used to be. Who can forget that lovely aroma
wafting into the cabin, accompanied by that delightful view of the mass early
morning crap up there on the hill in full view of all and sundry at 27 holding point.

(Those weren't the days.....):{

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<I politely have the FO tell ATC to $hit in their hats>>

Nice to work with a professional!

[CDRW]

Phantom - well there is one who can remember!! If ever there was a " long drop" that was it. And all the pax on the left hand side could see it!

[Airbubba]

Who can remember crappers corner??

Yep, off the departure end of runway 27. It wasn't that long ago...

Seems like someone skids off the long runway at BOM every couple of years or so. Remember when thieves stole the ILS antenna a while back?

Also, the dogs and pedestrians on the taxiway. Or getting a GPWS from Trombay Hill on the approach to 32. Incredible India!:)

[LeadSled]

I hate it when we have to increase the a/b setting. That involves so much effort sometimes I think it's safer to go-around, rebrief the landing, and then start the approach all over again. Are you serious --- have you ever heard of putting your feet on the brakes --- ????
I know Bombay (I'm old fashioned) like the back of my hand ---- complying with ATC "requests" comes a long way behind operating the aircraft as it was meant to be operated ---- in the order of priorities.

Tootle pip!!

[chai ja]

Was there in the early hours this morning, surprisingly, BOM ATC coping very well, we had no holding going in, 12 minutes taxi to runway 14 for dept... I did see as we were taxing out 0330 local a Turkish A340 landing on 14

[captjns]

Nice to work with a professional!

My arrangements with ATC is that they don't fly my airplanes, and I don't control their airplanes:ok:... an arrangement that has worked and will continue to do so until I retire.

PS... some of the best controllers I've dealt with are within London Control and the London TMA:ok: Spot on about 99.999% of the time:D.

[gottofly]

Understand that BOM main rwy 27 now open for normal ops after 3 days.

[VT-RST]

Yes! 09-27 is operational again after 3 looonnng 'Delay' days.

@Speed Freak: Turkish brings in the A340 frequently into BOM, for 2-3 years now, many of the times this Star Alliance Livery. I don't know how they could have gone wrong this time. Whats all the more baffling is that the A340 got stuck in mud between N7 and N8, but nowhere close to both! :ouch:

Photos: Airbus A340-311 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Star-Alliance-(Turkish/Airbus-A340-311/1655411/L/&sid=1f7f1a9ae499468affcea8d396fc7a29)

[misd-agin]

Leadsled - Sarcasm, in response to post #4.

[Speed Freak]

fly out of vabb 4 times a week, yet always seen the 330...pay special attention to tk cause i have travelled as passenger to istanbul for a very beautiful holiday...however, spoke to a few friends and they mentioned they have seen the tk 340 a few times...

as for them turning off the runway....could they have been confused by the rapid exit taxiway indicator lights....?

[Agent Mulder]

Any taxiway instruction on landing is a "request".

No ATC has the legal right to determine the landing distance of the airplane and as such any "take taxiway ........." instruction should be responded to with "Roger" (I have received all of the last transmission). At no time is any pilot obliged to comply with such an instruction.

The current practice of Singapore ATC to issue runway vacating instructions whilst aircraft are in the landing roll is also of concern. At a time when an airplane is decelerating to taxi speed and engines are in reverse thrust, taxi instructions are an unwelcome and unneeded distraction.

ATC’ers around the world. Request a simulator observation and get yourself put in the seat for a landing role as the PNF. Amongst the myriad of checks and support calls have the instructor issue taxi instructions and see for yourself how distracting it is. Then repeat the exercise with a brake failure or an engine overtemping whilst in reverse.

I understand you are busy and I have the greatest respect for the service you provide, however, another 10 seconds won’t make a great difference.

In addition, the controller working Calcutta who thinks it is a job where you are paid by the speed of your delivery, SLOW DOWN.

[FBW390]

Don't try to expedite vacating with a heavy if it's rainy! Whatever the ATC says!
As mentionned, they don't fly our airplanes!
And don't worry: in BOM there's nobody 3 NM behind, it's always 10 NM behind even on an ILS ( 27 for instance ):ugh:
And I've never heard of a serious Saab friction test in BOM! :sad: Nothing!
So when landing in BOM with rain with a Heavy: A/Brake Medium ( on Airbus ), positive landing, full reverse,
and you vacate when it's safe!

[FBW390]

Agent Mulder :
You are 100% right: it is silly and unsafe to give taxi instructions to an aircraft still in the process of landing.

[RoyHudd]

Indian ATC tends towards the hysterical, although I know they don't mean to sound like that. The Western ear is different, in that it is not happy with loud high-pitched shouting. This is normal in the sub-continent.

[Hotel Tango]

ATC’ers around the world. Request a simulator observation and get yourself put in the seat for a landing role as the PNF.

If only!

Easy to say Agent M, now try and organise it!!! Managers are no longer interested in the extra costs of actually 'educating' their staff for the finer points of the job they're doing. Much like today's younger pilots actually!

Before the beancounters came on board our controllers had familiarisation flights and were also invited to join sim sessions. Now days it's all at own cost and in own time - if your lucky to find an airline that will welcome you!

[fullforward]

said: " Indian ATC tends towards the hysterical, although I know they don't mean to sound like that. The Western ear is different, in that it is not happy with loud high-pitched shouting. This is normal in the sub-continent. "

Spot on 100 times! :ok:

For those thinking it's a big deal landing in a wet R27 in BOM, what about
landing a heavy 773 on R14, downhill and shorter than 27, with braking action reported as medium, 2 AM, under moderate rain?:eek:

[FBW390]

I've checked for the A332 at MLW and it's OK for landing on 14, with 10kts headwind; even when calculated at despatch ( with penalty ). But there is not a lot of margin;
The 773 is heavier and faster, it's a Cat D aircraft; not easy obviously;

fbw390

[captjns]

The 737-800 at 66.3 has been known to set land speed records with a 10 kt TW too:eek:.

[Vasco dePilot]

A demo is worth a thousand words:
[YOUTUBE]BOM N7 exit - YouTube
This was at just below MLW in a 773. We had a small 5kt tailwind which was pretty common on short finals to 27. We were aiming to vacate at N7 because next exit N8 was closed for WIP. The runway was dry and we had autobrake 4 selected.

[ManaAdaSystem]

27 is a nice long runway, until you check the actual landing distance which is considerably less. It's not grooved, no runways in India are. It is very slippery when wet. All runways in India are.

It's monsoon season. I'm waiting for the next one.

[fullforward]

...but what's exactly your point?
what's the big deal (or catch) on your vid?
there's nothing extraordinary on it...:confused:
why 'fry' the brakes and tires, produce an unconfortable deceleration for the pax when you had the alternative to leave easily on N9?

cheers,

FF

[Vasco dePilot]

Fullforward.
Please refer back to posts 28, 29 and 41 which have points I agree with telling it like it is. For pilots who have no experience of VABB, I hoped the video clip would show them exactly what it is like including the ATC invitation (NB not instruction!) to exit at N7. VABB is a very different challenge in the monsoon. Remember the flooding of VABB in July 2005 anyone????

[bo-peep]

woo hoo jet air 117 proved it !!! n7 is possible..no ****..it was a dry runway and n8 was closed !!:D

[O'Neill No6]

Vasco-Nice video.

Don't I hear you say "on the brakes" though? So not autobrake 4, just very early manual braking.

Displaced thresholds are an eye-opener though aren't they? Particularly if you imagine heavy rain and reduced visibility. Careful planning and briefing always required.

An airline I worked for used to "tank" fuel into India, this meant that you landed just below max landing weight in a 744F. I remember landing into VABB in heavy rain at these weights, quite tight. By the way you had no choice in the tanking, you turned up for work and the fuel was already on (freighter). So you were committed to MLW landing regardless of the conditions.

Newcomers-always plan for the worst conditions.

O'Neill.

[captjns]

So tell me… what’s the stigma about using N9 after an all night operation especially in raining conditions? Isn't it easier on wheels and brakes and less obtrusive on the passengers comfort?

When one is cleared to land... the runway is their piece of real estate. During the approach before landing, ATC can request you to plan to vacate by a designated runway exit point. If the request exceeds either the aircraft’s or pilot’s limitation than the response should be unable.

When we cover our approach briefing, don’t we discuss the runway exit point?

During the landing roll ATC can request, but not demand that you vacate prior to the end of the last available exit point on the runway. If unable the crew’s response should be “Negative... unable.” I can assure you that there will be no investigation, no risk of loss of license or charges on incompetent airmanship or letter of intent to violate.

Familiar with LAHSO? Landing and Hold Short Operations for cross runway operations in the US? LAHOS would be announced on the ATIS with specific instruction to advise ATC on first contact if unable to comply. This permits ATC to properly coordinate aircraft to the same airport using crossing runways to sequence departures and arrivals in order to minimize traffic flows or disruptions.

If one waited until the last minute whilst on short final, then disruptions arise and a discussion may be expected between the pilot and ATC, again resulting with no repercussions.

At the end of the day, I don't provide unsolicited advice to ATC on how to control their aircraft, and I’ve never accepted their advice on how to safely operate my aircraft.

[SMOC]

Also looks like deliberately flying below the G/S to touchdown at 800-1000'.

[fullforward]

Point made.:D
The rest is empty rubbish.

[hawker750]

I think you all have missed the obvious solution to whenever Bombay ATC tries to mess with you. Forget changing A/B settings etc to make the turn off (far too involved), just lift the nose a bit cary on a little and land at Juhu, problem solved. Cheaper landing fees as well so your company will be well proud of you. If BOAC can do it so can you.