Jetstar legal action update

[Lawrie Cox]

As a number of questions get asked what happened to the action here are the last couple of newsletters to give you an idea.

TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Council
DATE: 15 August 2011
RE: Jetstar EBA Discussions – Update
-----------------------------------------------------------

On Thursday 11 August 2011 we, along with AIPA Jetstar pilot reps, met again with the company regarding the employment of all Australian based Jetstar pilots under our EBA.

We have concluded discussions regarding one of the part-time options, now called “Flexi-Line (Part-Time)” employment (FL). The proposed FL model agreement has been circulated amongst the AFAP Jetstar Council Committee and Base Reps. We expect that the agreement will be signed off on Tuesday 16 August 2011. A full copy of the agreement will be distributed to the pilot group as soon as it is finalised. The broad features of the model/agreement are as follows:

• A minimum payment guarantee of 56 credit hours per month;
• Extra flying allowance after 56 credit hours;
• Extra flying allowance and work day off payments at the same rate as full-time pilots;
• A maximum of 15 days of rostered work per month;
• 11 designated days off (DDOs) per month (as per a full-time pilot), no stand-by duties and the balance in duty free days (DFDs) per month;
• Grouping of a minimum of 7 consecutive days away from work (DFDs and DDOs) per roster;
• A 10% cap on the number of new hire FL positions;
• A pathway for FL pilots to become full-time should they choose to do so;
• A guaranteed ability for existing pilots to opt-in and opt-out of fixed terms as an FL pilot should they choose to do so, at least 5% before 1 July 2012 and 10% after 1 July 2012;
• Annual leave and other EBA conditions and payments as per full-time pilots;
• A joint review of the model on 1 July 2012.

An indication of the progress we have made in developing what we believe is a fair and balanced model is the emphasis on ensuring that existing pilots are able to access FL employment.

Your Council and Base Reps are again meeting via teleconference this week. The next meeting (or series of meetings) with the company is scheduled for the week beginning Monday 22 August 2011. It is hoped that this series of meetings will resolve the outstanding issues of mobility and, most importantly, cadet employment.

From the outset our aim has been to ensure that all Australian based Jetstar pilots are employed by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited on fair and reasonable terms under your EBA. We have made positive progress to achieving this aim and remain hopeful of further progress.

If you have any questions regarding this matter please let your AFAP Jetstar Base Rep know, ask any of the AFAP Jetstar Council members or contact Simon Lutton ([email protected] or (xxx) or Andrew Molnar ([email protected]) or (03) 9928 5737).

Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council
------------------------------------------------------------------------
TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Council
DATE: 24 August 2011
RE: Jetstar EBA Discussions – Update

Yesterday and today we, along with AIPA Jetstar pilot reps, held another meeting with the company regarding the employment of all Australian based Jetstar pilots under our EBA. After formally signing off on the new “Flexi-Line (Part-Time)” employment (FL) model we commenced discussions on arrangements for the employment of all Australian based Jetstar cadets by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited under the EBA.

As many of you will be aware, the Jetstar cadets are currently employed under individual contracts with an entity called Jetstar Group Pty Ltd. Amongst other things, these contracts require a cadet pay $10,500 per year over six (years) to Jetstar and other bonding arrangements. The legality of these contracts is the basis of our current proceedings in the Federal Court of Australia.

After robust discussions on the first day (and both parties seeking further legal advice overnight) we are pleased to advise that we have reached in-principle agreement for the employment of these Jetstar Group cadets under your EBA. The main points of the agreement are:

• No repayment of training costs;
• Refund of training costs paid to date under the group contract (if any);
• A 3 year $36,000 bond;
• Payment as a junior F/O for a maximum of two years (guaranteed minimum annual base salary of $57,118);
• Payment as a F/O Level 1 after two years or attainment of an ATPL (whichever occurs first);
• Flexi-Line employment;
• Current basing to remain;
• Seniority number and all rights and entitlements as per the EBA;

We expect that the cadets will be offered employment by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited under the EBA within the next week or so. This will secure a seniority number ahead of all new hires.

From the outset our aim has been to ensure that all Australian based Jetstar pilots are employed by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited on fair and reasonable terms under your EBA. As a result of our considered and successful industrial and legal strategy we are well on the way to achieving our aim.

Further meetings to deal with mobility and other part-time employment options will be scheduled shortly. We will keep advised of developments.

If you have any questions regarding this matter please let your AFAP Jetstar Base Rep know, ask any of the AFAP Jetstar Council members or contact Simon Lutton ([email protected] or (xxx) or Andrew Molnar ([email protected]) or (03) 9928 5737).

Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Council
DATE: 29 August 2011
RE: Jetstar EBA Discussions – Update (Cadets)

PAPER-WORK FINALISED

Last week we reported that we had reached in-principle agreement for the employment of all current Jetstar cadets by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited under your EBA. The main points of the agreement being:

• No repayment of training costs;
• Refund of training costs paid to date under the Jetstar Group contract (if any);
• A 3 year $36,000 bond;
• Payment as a junior F/O for a maximum of two years (guaranteed minimum annual base salary of $57,118 – increasing in January 2012 in line with the EBA);
• Payment as a F/O Level 1 after two years or attainment of an ATPL (whichever occurs first);
• Flexi-Line employment;
• Current basing to remain;
• Seniority number and all rights and entitlements as per the EBA.

Today we met to finalise the paperwork. The agreement which we finalised today covers all cadets currently flying within Jetstar Australia (whether checked to line or in training).

The cadets currently flying within Australia will now be offered permanent employment by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited under the EBA. The offers of employment are being made as soon as possible in order to ensure that their seniority is appropriately reflected (i.e. ahead of the next intake of new hires).

From the outset our aim has been to ensure that all Australian based Jetstar pilots are employed by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited on fair and reasonable terms under your EBA. As a result of our considered and successful industrial and legal strategy we have ensured that every F/O and cadet currently operating within the Australian Jetstar network is offered employment by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited and thereby entitled to the rights and protections of your EBA.

We intend to meet with the company to deal with issues such as mobility and other part-time employment options in the near future. We will keep advised of developments.

If you have any questions regarding this matter please let your AFAP Jetstar Base Rep know, ask any of the AFAP Jetstar Council members or contact Simon Lutton ([email protected] or xxx) or Andrew Molnar ([email protected] or (03) 9928 5737).

Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council
----------------------------

[The Kelpie]

Thanks for the update Lawrie.

Winning the battle but not the war I feel. The extent to which Jetstar management have rolled over and let you tickle their bellies is a sure sign they wanted to keep this out of the federal court - at all costs.

Am I correct in assuming that the federation's part of the deal is to cease the court action against JQ?

I hope that this 'deal' covers the cessation of using australian bases for the line training of overseas crew who are employed by Jq NZ or any other JQ franchise.

I look forward to you posting the answers to the questions in the same way you have done with the press releases

The Kelpie

[NIK320]

Those new conditions for cadets actually look somewhat reasonable now...

[gobbledock]

The extent to which Jetstar management have rolled over and let you tickle their bellies is a sure sign they wanted to keep this out of the federal court - at all costs. Might be a different story if the Judges and Barristers were actually consultants with links to the Execs, there would be tonnes of legal action being thrown their way !

[blueloo]

guaranteed minimum annual base salary of $57,118

Is this a joke?

Why take on the responsibility for this wage.

Qantas Cabin Crew get paid more.

[aussie_herb]

Hi Lawrie ,
Have you explained to all the Jetstar pilots that the " part time " pilots will be used to stop them from getting called out on days off for the enormous money they get for that ? Have you also explained to the Jetstar f/o's that now there is carte Blanche to employ direct entry Capts over the top of them forever ? What shrewd industrial move .

[mcgrath50]

What is Flexi-Line employment?

[DUXNUTZ]

What is the usual salary for a jetstar FO as per the Australian EBA?

[ejectx3]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS2IUqcfT6mtGZCM-WJTLlIEyGdiLKSdbI07s8IAo59E_wrPGZZA3PqKE5Oxg

[Y0SSARIAN]

guaranteed minimum annual base salary of $57,118
Is this a joke?

Agreed, but that's the JQ EBA pay rate for a "Junior FO" who is defined as a pilot operating as an FO who doesn't have an ATPL. At least these cadets are limited to two years max on this pitiful salary, whereas the EBA could keep them there for much longer.


Have you explained to all the Jetstar pilots that the " part time " pilots will be used to stop them from getting called out on days off for the enormous money they get for that ?

I don't think you understand the policy. PT pilots get 15-16 days off a month. They get the same money for being called out on a day off as do full timers. They can't be rostered for standby. What incentive does JQ have for calling in a PT pilot for "day off" work over a full time guy?

Have you also explained to the Jetstar f/o's that now there is carte Blanche to employ direct entry Capts over the top of them forever ?

Once again I fail to understand your logic. JQ can't make command upgrades or base/type changes conditional on FL employment. Many JQ FO's will be bypassed by QF MOU guys coming across. The fact is that these FO's were aware of the MOU when they joined, so whilst it's a case of poor timing for them, everything in this regard is above board and in accordance to what was agreed upon prior to their employment.

What is Flexi-Line employment?

McG- Lawrie has given a brief synopsis of this in his post. It is basically reduced divisor flying with more days off. i.e. you are subjected to a min guarantee of 75% of the full time salary but can only be rostered to work 75% of the days that a full timer can. Extra flying on top of the min. guarantee is at the same overtime rate as for full timers. Day off flying is at the same rate too.

Overall this policy means that cadets are only bonded for 3 years/ $36k and do not need to make any repayments on debts incurred for their training. The full time salary for a new hire FO at JQ is $87 262. On Flexi- Line employment the base salary for a new hire FO is $65 447. A new hire needs to pay off a $36k debt through salary sacrifice over 33 months.

After paying off their endorsement debt to JQ a new hire FO would not be any better off than a cadet if they both worked minimum hours. If the two pilots worked longer than min hours then the "direct entry FO" would be better off because their hourly pay is higher.

All this is not trying to justify the substandard conditions of the JQ EBA, but rather to point out that it is the EBA, and not the Flexi-Line employment model or the deal that has been offered to the cadets recently that is inadequate.

[TSRABECOMING]

All above is about Australian bases pilot. Are there any arrangement affecting jet star pilot outside Australia?

[The Kelpie]

Agreed, but that's the JQ EBA pay rate for a "Junior FO" who is defined as a pilot operating as an FO who doesn't have an ATPL.

But surely on expiration of the current EBA the award would kick in which makes no such provision for JFO's and provides that the minimum payment for a member of a320 crew is much higher than that agreed anyway.

Remember the award is designed as a safety net .

I wonder if the graduating ab initio cadets will now be required given that their training costs are much higher ( approx. $220k) and that given that all cadets will be flexi line pilots and that there is a 10% cap in flexi line pilots compared to full timers.

I fear we have only got the headlines from AFAP and not both sides if the story.

The Kelpie

[aussie_herb]

Yossarian , they won't be calling in FL pilots on their days off , they will be using them to negate the need to call in the current pilots on their days off for the fantastic money they currently get for that . The nett result no more day off pay for anyone . The argument is why not just employ a pilot on a normal fulltime contract .
Why does jetstar need to bring in direct entry captains ? This has nothing to do with the Qantas MOU . These are external Capts who will be brought in over the top of current jetstar f/o's . Why would anyone support this . They can claim 10% FL only however once in they can just keep making FL pilots fulltime continually bringing in DEC's negating the need to ever upgrade a current jetstar F/O . Or should we trust Jetstar management to do the right thing ? Why would the AFAP and the AIPA jetstar reps support this . When advised by AIPA that this could not go ahead there was a major dummy spit by the jetstar reps . Why are they so passionate about allowing Direct Entry Capts to squash the careers of their F/O's . While I'm on it . What will happen to the Jetstar 330 pilots when the Qantas 330's they are flying finally go back to Qantas ? With the current push into Asia it seems no 787's will ever be based in Australia . What happens then ?

[waren9]

Herb

What makes you think DECs are anymore likely/possible than before? Specific clauses please... As it stands, I disagree the FL policy will disadvantage current FOs in that respect.

As for the day off payment, they will be just as short and disorganised as before, so WDO payments wont change. If WDO payments were more expensive than employing pilots then one would think thats what they'd do. FL positions have a minimum gauranteed pay, so its in the companys interest to have them working, not sitting there ready to take up the slack.

[aussie_herb]

Hi Waren . Ask you jetstar pilot reps about DEC's . They are negotiating them right now with your company . With the support of the AFAP . I would love to be told how wrong I am .

[ACT Crusader]

Thanks for the update Lawrie.

Do the parties have to report back to the Fed Court on the outcomes of these meetings given their "interest" in this?

[waren9]

Jetstar has intended to employ Tiger DECs. Dont know how far this has got. Line pilots have made their position clear to both unions on this.

AFAIK the negotiations you refer to are around some sort of bypass deal line guys might be able to stomach. We'll see.

Completely seperate from FL Policy and cadet issues.

[maggot]

Or should we trust Jetstar management to do the right thing ?


and again... http://m.uploadedit.com/b97/22670231.gif

[Beer Baron]

But surely on expiration of the current EBA the award would kick in
Is that correct? I know that when my EBA expires the provisions within it continue on until a new EBA is agreed to. Is the JQ EBA different in this regard? That would be a major loophole for the company to exploit.

[Muff Hunter]

I have heard the DEC"S are dead in the water......

It's only been the CP pushing for it, as they are his mates he's trying to employ..

[Keith Myath]

Aussie herb

Hi Waren . Ask you jetstar pilot reps about DEC's . They are negotiating them right now with your company . With the support of the AFAP . I would love to be told how wrong I am .


YOU ARE WRONG. :) DEC’s are a JPC matter and the JPC have killed it. If you talk to the 4 pilots who are negotiating with the company you would know that there is no talk of Tiger DEC’s in their meetings. These meetings have been about the flexi line employment and getting the cadets employed under the EBA. The reps are doing a bloody good job. Have a look at what they have achieved:


The flexi line deal gives a pilot a 3.6% pay rise over an existing full time pilot doing 75hrs per month or more.

The flexi line pilot only has to work 15 days per month.

The flexi line pilot gets 6 weeks annual leave paid at the full time rate.

The flexi line pilot gets a guaranteed 7 consecutive days off per month out of their 15 or 16 total days off.

The Jetstar pilots have right of veto to any changes to the flexi line policy.

The cadets don’t pay a cent back for their training.

The cadets get offered permanent employment in Australia under the EBA.

The cadets don’t have to qualify for an ATPL to get a pay rise to FO wages – under the EBA they could have been stuck on JFO rates for years while they got command time and all the requirements for an ATPL.

The cadets bond has been slashed from 6 years $84,000 to 3 years $36,000.

Again, talk to the pilot reps.

Jetstar have capitulated. They have gone running with their tails between their legs after the AFAP gave them a massive kick; the pilots have won. The Jetstar Group contract is DEAD. All recruitment is under the EBA. The federal court action was a masterstroke by the AFAP and is the sole reason that the pilot reps have been so successful. 4 months ago the Jetstar pilots were looking down the barrel of no more recruitment under the EBA – they would have been smashed come EBA negotiation time. Instead they have a decent part time policy and all pilots are to be employed under the EBA. They live to fight another day.

4 months ago Jetstar tried one of the biggest stunts to undermine the Jetstar pilots employment conditions. This could have spread industry wide and undermined all pilots employment conditions if Jetstar were successful. The AFAP put a stop to that in no uncertain terms – they went to a gun fight with a canon.

On the other hand you have the Chihuahua called AIPA. They have done absolutely nothing to try to stop the Jetstar Group Contract. All AIPA have done is bark up the wrong tree and criticise the AFAP’s strategy. They unilaterally dismissed the Jetstar subcommittee chairman (against the Jetstar pilots wishes) for sharing information with the AFAP pilots reps. The only reason the AIPA reps are in the room is because of the AFAP’s court case. Where is AIPAs’ industrial savvy and legal might when the Jetstar pilots were facing the biggest threat to their ongoing employment conditions? When are the Jetstar pilots going to hold AIPA to account for the moronic handling of Jetstar issues? When are AIPA going to actually win a court case on behalf of the Jetstar pilots?

I know who I would want on my side when Jetstar inevitably come at the pilots again bearing gifts of pineapples and cacti.

[Muff Hunter]

Keith,

You make some good points, however don't forget that the AFAP are the ones who are signatories to the disgraceful EBA that the JQ pilots work under.

If they had done a better job in the first place none of this stuff would have happened.

AIPA do have their issues but they have been taking it up to JQ management for a couple of years now, holding them to account at every opportunity, so to say they are not making life difficult for JQ management is tad out of touch.

[JustJoinedToSearch]

So the cadets that signed up to 40,000 or so NZ dollars and paid for training with the intention of undercutting every single pilot in Australia, now get a job in Australia, on the EBA and get their training paid for?

Whilst those who didn't pay for the cadetship thinking, 'I'm going to do the right thing and not try and undercut everyone' gain nothing.

How can we possibly expect people to do the right thing and not accept dog**** T+C's when those who do always seem to end up better off because of the efforts of the current pilot fraternity (see part time 'group' contract before)?

[waren9]

those who do always seem to end up better off because of the efforts of the current pilot fraternity

Fact of life for any pilot joining an established EBA. Hard yards/negotiation already done by your predecessors. Circle of life.

Not defending the cadets or their actions however.

[Lawrie Cox]

Can i state that i am not here to debate the issues only posting newsletters to give those with an interest some background. Kelpie you mistake the fact that the Federation is industrial relations (IR) not public relations (PR) or spin, the documents are our newsletters and the work of the Jetstar Pilot reps.
Yes we did post a copy of a media release elsewhere that was to also clarify our role in the industrial agreement rather than another PR puff piece about involvement in actual negotiations.

so enough from me and this is the latest newsletter.
-----------------------------------------------------------
TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Council
DATE: 1 September 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – Update on AFAP Application to the Federal Court


JUDGE EXTENDS ORDER FOR COMPANY TO STOP OFFERING INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS

We are pleased to advise that today (1 September 2011) Justice Marshall of the Federal Court signed the following consent orders:

“Upon the Respondent continuing its undertaking given to the Court on 10 June 2011 that it will not make any further offers of employment, before 4:30pm on Friday 28 October 2011, to either First Officers or Cadet Pilots under the contracts referred to in the Statement of Claim, the Court orders by consent that:

1. Orders 3 and 4 made on 21 July 2011 are set aside.

2. On or before 4.00 pm on Thursday, 22 September 2011, the Applicant file and serve any reply.

3. A further directions hearing be listed at 9.00am on Friday 28 October 2011.

4. There be liberty for both parties to apply on reasonable notice.

5. Costs reserved.”

The practical effect of the above orders is the continuation of the prohibition on the company from offering further Jetstar Group contracts to First Officers and Cadets while the matter is determined (or resolved).

While our legal case against the Jetstar Group Pty Limited contracts continues (the next hearing is scheduled for 28 September 2011) we have been meeting extensively with the company. The aim of these discussions has been to ensure the employment of all Australian based Jetstar pilots by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited under your EBA.

We continue to make progress towards our aim. Within the last week or so we have ensured that every F/O and Cadet currently operating within the Australian Jetstar network is offered employment by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited and thereby entitled to the protections of your EBA. We will keep you updated of developments.

If you have any questions regarding this matter please let your AFAP Jetstar Base Rep know, ask any of the AFAP Jetstar Council members or contact Simon Lutton ([email protected]).

Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council

[Fuel-Off]

Personally if I were to fly with these guys, it would be a very quiet and awkward cockpit

I don't think you'd be alone there JonnyBravo...modern day $cab$ as far as I'm concerned.

Fuel-Off :ok:

[JustJoinedToSearch]

Fact of life for any pilot joining an established EBA. Hard yards/negotiation already done by your predecessors. Circle of life.

Not defending the cadets or their actions however

That's fine and I understand what you are saying, however, these scum didn't join the established EBA.

They agreed to undercut and offshore the jobs of the pilots on that EBA. These are selfish people who only thought about themselves, at the expense of every other pilot and prospective pilot in Australia who wanted to be able to live in the country they love and do the job they love.

After all this, the only 'punishment' they get is a jet job, with a guaranteed pay rise after 2 years to the same rate as someone who has slogged it out in GA and gotten 2-3000 hours of real experience. Plus free training from whatever level they were (so CPL/MECIR from ab initio).

It's a disgrace.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

They agreed to undercut and offshore the jobs of the pilots on that EBA. These are selfish people who only thought about themselves

Wow, thats funny, the way I see it, the Jetstar pilots did exactly the same thing to the rest of the industry not that long ago when they accepted their EBA, suckers.

[JustJoinedToSearch]

Good point.

Difference is Jetstar pilots still have to put up with the disgraceful EBA they signed up to. That's their punishment.

The equivalent would be if the pilots who agreed to undercut Qantas by joining Jetstar when the whole thing started, were given Qantas T+C's.

It's rewarding bad behavior ffs.

[aussie_herb]

We will see Keith . The advice I have is that it is still the companies discretion to employ DEC's . As for you view on the IR landscape , let's just say our views are not alligned . Copying in AFAP is one thing . Copying in the company is another . Having a hissy fit and resigning from Aipa is slightly different from being dismissed . Be careful of worshipping false idols . Hate to see the Jetstar guys being used as pawns anymore than they already have been . Where do the 330 guys go when the 787's ( if they ever come ) are based somewhere in Asia ? QF 330's start returning to those that have been paying for them in 2012 , next year . What's the AFAP's plan for that one . AIPA has one and is fighting it at the highest level .

[The Kelpie]

Thanks for the reply Lawrie.

FYI i am aware of the difference between IR and PR.

You still have not answered my question about overseas pilots undertaking line training on the aussie line whilst paid under their ts and cs away from the EBA.

Can you confirm this practice has been adequately dealt with in your discussions.

Thank You

The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

Yes all official. I have seen the style of document being currently issued to the cadets.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[unionist1974]

Lawrie Cox ,
Well done , you have always been fair dinkum a genuine trade unionist who always has the best interests of members at heart . Unlike some "Johnny come lately"chaps who pose as union people that we have today. Good result, you will live to fight another day

[Uncashed Pilot]

The company has streamlined the operation by putting all on EBA.
When the EBA expires look for a loss of T & Cs in one go.
They now have unlimited qualified including QF pilots on the books who will work for way less to either:
1 Live in Australia

2 Have a job as opposed to unemployment.

Enjoy the next 2 Years boys.....

[eternity]

I'm quite happy that the Jetstar cadets are on the EBA....


There has been some well publicised concerns that because the cadets (over the 6? year period) were cheaper than direct entry FO's, that Jetstar would be focusing their recruitment on these kids (to save money). Now that these cadets are on the same EBA and have had their bond reduced I would imagine that the financial attraction of cadets vs. direct entry FO's would not be as great for Jetstar...

Continuing my imagination....one might assume that because the cadets are now much more expensive for Jetstar that they might start to focus more on direct entry FO's again???


More than happy for others' opinions on this 'assumption'...


Eternity.

[PhoenixNZ]

This has certainly been an interesting read from the point of view of an upcoming cadet.

You all seem to forget one simple truth - cadets are people as well. They are simply trying to make the most out of the situation they are in.

In my case, I'm training at the moment. I'm going to spend around 14 months training, during that time earning the bare minimum to survive as a student. I have a wife and two children.

Once I'm done with my training I have very limited options:

1. Go into GA. Get some relevant experience for airline flying and be paid $30k a year (if I'm lucky to get paid at all)
2. Get into a cadet program. Get experience that is 100% relevant for airline flying and get paid $60k a year (minus of course paying back my type/line ratings).

So now I'm a scab simply because I'm going to take the option that gives the best benefit for me and my family. Like any of you existing pilots would have done ANYTHING different if you were in the same position when you started your careers.

Cadet programs are less than perfect. We all know this, every one of us in our course knows that overall cadet programs are going to result in the pay rates for pilots going down. But there are no other better/more reasonable options available. There is such a massive gap between those two options it isn't funny. What reasonable person would ask someone to take half the pay and half the experience just so that they can continue.

Its the jobs of the unions and the industry to detirmine pay rates etc etc.
Its the jobs of cadets and PEOPLE to do whats best for themselves. Dont blame us because JQ is offering a cadet program that is the best option for any pilot wanting to get into airlines.

[mcgrath50]

So now I'm a scab simply because I'm going to take the option that gives the best benefit for me and my family. Like any of you existing pilots would have done ANYTHING different if you were in the same position when you started your careers.

I did and many others have. In fact I know more guys who have turned down REX and Jetstar than have taken them up. I have engineering friends who when they went for graduate jobs NEGOTIATED their pay upwards. They knew what they were worth, as did their employers, and they were rewarded for it.

They didn't have shiny jet syndrome. Things don't always come easy, on a platter, sometimes you have to work for them.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

So now I'm a scab simply because I'm going to take the option that gives the best benefit for me and my family

.....and that makes us all arseholes for being slightly unhappy about peolple moving in, voiding our years of hard work and taking jobs away from those of us who did the GA thing?

Quick to condemn I think not. Good luck sport.

[The Green Goblin]

PhoenixNZ

You'll understand one day.

It will probably be when guys like yourself are offering to do it for 40k instead of 60k using your same rational.

It may be when you're in the left seat and have to fly with these guys.

Yes, they know their theory and SOPs very well. No one I know has ever had issue with this. It's knowing when to apply this theory and use of SOPs which is the problem.

It's the lack of airmanship, the lack of piloting experience. It's all the small things which add up. Taxi lights on facing another aircraft at night. Strobes on entering a runway While another aircraft is in a flare passing. Blindly flying into a thunderstorm because ATC has not cleared left or right track miles. Reading the conditions, the way the air feels, the way it looks. That feeling deep down when you know something is not as it should be yet there is no indication to confirm it.

It's like comparing something made by a machine vs something handmade. A cadet is churned out by a machine, a traditional military/GA Pilot is hand crafted through operational experience. A pilot is a craftsman, and it takes years being handmade to call yourself one.

Is not something you can throw money at to attain. It's something you slowly become.

Once you are sitting in that airliner, you'll understand it. I promise you it will be all the more worthwhile.

[waren9]

PhoenixNZ

Its the jobs of the unions and the industry to determine pay rates etc etc.
Its the jobs of cadets and PEOPLE to do what’s best for themselves. Dont blame us because JQ is offering a cadet program that is the best option for any pilot wanting to get into airlines.

One serious gap in your knowledge they won’t teach you at Raybans and Epaulettes flight school.

Unions and industry ARE people and cadets.

To bastardise someone else's phrase, "Its not what can my union do for me, its what can I do for my..."

And to a few others out there: get out your dictionaries and learn the correct meaning of scab. Thank you.

[JustJoinedToSearch]

Phoenix, Phoenix, Phoenix.....
What reasonable person would ask someone to take half the pay and half the experience just so that they can continue.

This is where you go wrong..

How many times in potential air disasters that are averted do you hear something like 'due to his substantial gliding experience the captain was able to safely bring down the out of fuel 767 on the drag strip' or similar?

I am yet to hear 'the former cadet captain who had never had to make any decisions by himself under pressure magically gained this skill at the instant it was required!'

By foregoing GA you are avoiding getting the most important thing you will ever need in an aeroplane. And you can't learn it from a book, you even can't learn it from watching someone else perform under pressure (i.e. the captain). You have to experience it for your self.

In GA you get half the pay (or more if you value your skills highly enough) but infinitely times the experience.

You can teach an experienced descision making pilot SOP's. You can't teach a cadet experience.

[PhoenixNZ]

So the cadets that signed up to 40,000 or so NZ dollars and paid for training with the intention of undercutting every single pilot in Australia, now get a job in Australia, on the EBA and get their training paid for?

Not one of the cadets who sign up to be a cadet do it with the intention or desire to undercut any pilots. They do it because the only other alternatives are ****.

You all accuse cadets of wanting to take the easy way to get into a jet and your right. What rational person is given two options and says "Ohhh I'll take the hardest way please".

I'm not by any means saying that doing GA doesn't offer benefits for your flying. But those benefits have to be weighted against the financial ones and the financial benefits of a cadet scheme so far outweighs GA that its not funny.

I consider my training to be a pilot both a lifestyle choice and an investment. Just like any investment I would like to get the best possible return on it. If GA paid anything that was even remotely approaching the JQ cadets program then I'd certainly consider it. I quite like the idea of GA flying for a few years before going into jets. But sadly it doesn't.

They agreed to undercut and offshore the jobs of the pilots on that EBA. These are selfish people who only thought about themselves, at the expense of every other pilot and prospective pilot in Australia who wanted to be able to live in the country they love and do the job they love.

What is your own argument but your own selfish desire to retain conditions in a way that benefits you? Your own argument is completely selfish. You dont care about the other pilots, you care about your own pocket. The fact that every other pilot is the same doesn't mean your thinking about them at all.

.....and that makes us all arseholes for being slightly unhappy about peolple moving in, voiding our years of hard work and taking jobs away from those of us who did the GA thing?

No it makes you arseholes for condeming people and abusing them for doing whats best for them and their families. Your welcome to be unhappy about cadet schemes but the cadets are just doing right by themselves. Blame JQ by all means, dont blame the cadets.

You'll understand one day.

It will probably be when guys like yourself are offering to do it for 40k instead of 60k using your same rational.

Yep and I'd be upset at the company for offering it. I'm not going to go abusing the people who take up that offer though if they feel its the best option for them. I'm not going to cold shoulder them in the cockpit just because I dont like what the company is doing.

One serious gap in your knowledge they won’t teach you at Raybans and Epaulettes flight school.

Unions and industry ARE people and cadets.

Yep they sure are. But sorry if this is selfish but whats best for my family and myself is always going to come before whats best for the union as a whole. I'll support the union, I'll help and contribute etc etc but I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot for them.


guys you don't get it....he gets to fly a big shiny jet!!! that's all that matters

Nope - I get to provide for my family and build experience that will get me into a great career. Thats all that matters.

This is where you go wrong..

How many times in potential air disasters that are averted do you hear something like 'due to his substantial gliding experience the captain was able to safely bring down the out of fuel 767 on the drag strip' or similar?

I am yet to hear 'the former cadet captain who had never had to make any decisions by himself under pressure magically gained this skill at the instant it was required!'

By foregoing GA you are avoiding getting the most important thing you will ever need in an aeroplane. And you can't learn it from a book, you even can't learn it from watching someone else perform under pressure (i.e. the captain). You have to experience it for your self.

In GA you get half the pay (or more if you value your skills highly enough) but infinitely times the experience.

You can teach an experienced descision making pilot SOP's. You can't teach a cadet experience.

And yet none of this discussion has been around lack of experience for cadets. Its been purely about the fact that you consider them scabs because they dare accept a job for less money.

[chockchucker]

So PheonixNZ,


Let me sum up. Basically what you're saying is, "I'm alright jack and stuff everyone else".


Be they your current colleagues fighting for a decent wage and conditions in the face of rampant ideologs the like of Bruce Buchannan et-al, or the poor kids coming up after you.


As long as you get into that shiny new jet, you think you're climbing your way to a legacy type job with legacy type conditions. Problem is that you're actively helping destroy those positions with your actions. So that you'll end up killing off that which you aspire to.:=


It's called short termism. You can only look ahead to what will effect you in the here and now. Sadly, with that outlook, you'll never get to where you think you're heading to.



There are no shortcuts in life.And any shortcuts taken in aviation invariably always end in tears. If it looks too good to be true (ie Jetstar cadetships, or rapid promotions to the left hand seat) it probably is.:ok:

[PhoenixNZ]

Chockchucker:

So if someone came to you and said "Hi, we would like you to give up $20k a year so that everyone elses pay stays the same" are you going to say "Sure, thats fine".


As long as you get into that shiny new jet, you think you're climbing your way to a legacy type job with legacy type conditions. Problem is that you're actively helping destroy those positions with your actions. So that you'll end up killing off that which you aspire to.:=

Not at all. I'm more than aware of what direction aviation is heading to in terms of pilot pay. I dont expect the same wages are going to exist forever. But I'm not in it for the money. As long as the money pays the bills the reflects to a degree the level of investment I've personally put in then I'm fine.

All the doomsayers are saying that wages are just going to drop and drop and drop. But they wont because there will be a point at which they can't employ any pilots as the level of investment needed to be a pilot will far outweigh the gains.

So yes, wages are probably going to come down. But certainly not to a point where everyones struggling to pay the bills. Airline pilots are always going to be at the high end of the payscale because of the high cost it takes to get there.

Anyone who gets into aviation for the legacy wages clearly hasn't done their research. If you want to get into aviation you need to do it for the joy of flying.

[KRUSTY 34]

The joy of flying! What, fastrack to the RHS of an A320 and then having to eat catfood!

Don't delude yourself (or the rest of us PNZ). You're after a career, and that's fine. But the "Joy of flying" my friend will have very little to to with your "career" in the brave new world you are preparing to embrace.

More of a warning than anything else. :{

[PhoenixNZ]

Of course I'm after a career. I've never said otherwise. If I dont enjoy flying then why would I be spending 80k to get into this?

I could take a 30k management degree and probably end up far better paid. If your flying for the money then you have a very very poor understanding of economics.

[The Green Goblin]

It would have to be a Kiwi wouldn't it!

Hang your head in shame.

All the new hires and students say they are not in it for the money, the love of flying bla bla bla.

Reality hits some time soon after. (generally when you're working in a servo part time along with flying a jet for 48k after paying for your endorsement).

Generally when the pile of bills stacks up, the loans still needs to be paid for, the car needs fixing and the mrs has had the ****s. Next you'll be whinging cause you're not in the left seat yet!

Moving on.

[jibba_jabba]

Of course I'm after a career. I've never said otherwise. If I dont enjoy flying then why would I be spending 80k to get into this?

I could take a 30k management degree and probably end up far better paid. If your flying for the money then you have a very very poor understanding of economics.

hahaha,
oxymoron alert.

next you will be telling us all that management have your best interests at heart.

I am glad you are moving toward a career you find interesting, but unfortunately your mortgage lender understands economics better than you do :-)

good luck.

[PhoenixNZ]

Its quite simple:
I'm in aviation because the amount of money it pays is reasonable and I get to do something I love.

And anyone who can't pay the bills on 48k (or the 60k that is now the entry pay for cadets) has serious budgetting issues. I'm surviving currently in around 40k pre-tax with two children. Its not uber-comfortable but its certainly not starving.

[PhoenixNZ]

hahaha,
oxymoron alert.

next you will be telling us all that management have your best interests at heart.

I am glad you are moving toward a career you find interesting, but unfortunately your mortgage lender understands economics better than you do :-)

good luck. Why dont you enlighten me seeing as your so obviously an expert in economics and explain how spending 80k to earn 100k a year is better than spending 30k to earn 200k a year?

Management have the interests of the airline at heart. No company in the world can survive though if it doesn't also put some thought into keeping its employees happy.

[chockchucker]

So yes, wages are probably going to come down. But certainly not to a point where everyones struggling to pay the bills. Airline pilots are always going to be at the high end of the payscale because of the high cost it takes to get there.


Pheonix, you're obviously a deluded and naive young person. :ugh:


Perhaps worse still, it would appear you are a selfish fool. And in a flight deck that makes you dangerous.

[PhoenixNZ]

Or maybe I'm just an optimist.

Do you really think they will still convince people to pay 80k for a job where the highest salary is 60k?

Hands up in the room who would actually do that?

Also chock I notice you didn't actually answer my question.

[PhoenixNZ]

Actually that's not how it works, everyone else has already had the $20k year job so that they can now earn $100k, you are the one who wants to skip the hard bit. And before you give me that 'but I have 2 children' crap how about the rest of us who decided not to have kids yet specifically because we had to do the hard yards.
You can choose to take this path, but be advised that it includes the rest of the pilot body shunning you for the under cutter that you are. :=

No, you had the 20k a year job because it was the only one that was available at the time. You didn't give up anything because there were no other options.

Are you seriously saying you would take a 20k job over a 60k job because you care so deeply about the industry?

Now your saying that those of us who have got the option to earn a better living shouldn't because thats just not how it was done in the old days.

What guarentees can anyone give that after five years in GA that one could actually still get a job at current rates? None.

[PhoenixNZ]

Everyones going on about how cadet schemes will result in lower pay for everyone across the industry but has anyone actually got anything other than speculation to back that up?

The UK has been running cadet schemes for quite some time, anything that backs up that having a cadet scheme has lowered wages for those more experienced F/Os or Capts? Any job losses because of it? I have searched quite a bit online and found nothing that supports cadet schemes resulting in reduced conditions for existing FOs and Capts.

The reality is that cadet schemes are no different to standard apprenticeships. You do the basic training, you become an apprentice to start learning the more practical skills on a considerably lower than average salary and then as you get the experience you move up the ladder.

Someone explain how cadet schemes are any different to an apprenticeship.

[waren9]

No company in the world can survive though if it doesn't also put some thought into keeping its employees happy

Thats the funniest fcuking thing I've read on here for ages. PhoenixNZ mate, does none of what you read on here actually sink in. There are about 10 QF threads running that should have given you some idea of what QF and JQ think of their employees.

Mate, when you wake up from the dream its gonna be one hellova shock.

[PhoenixNZ]

And what are the JQ and QF pilots doing about it other than sitting here on PPrune bitching about it?

The pilots need to harden up and take the action required and show JQ and QF that they aren't willing to stand for it. Without pilots JQ and QF are going to have some serious issues.

They will keep abusing you until you stand up to them.

[tryhard1]

Hi PNZ,

I'm not going to try and talk you out of your planned career path, and if that opportunity was around when I was looking into aviation, perhaps I would have taken it? (actually the Qantas cadet program was, but I couldn't afford it) but I did give up a well paying job to start in aviation, and I have to admit the happiest part of my aviation career was in GA, and also in the regionals.

When you finally join us at JQ, please understand, that those weekends you may have had with the kids will mostly disappear, you will be tired on your days off, and also while at work, which could actually effect those that you care about when you miss those special moments with the family while your working, or grumpy with the misses because she doesn't understand you working so hard, and when you are home, you just want to sleep on the couch.

Also, please don't forget that JQ can get rid of you at any time during the training if you don't cut it, and you still have to pay the $$ for the training, which unfortunately is at a highly over inflated price (as this is how JQ and the flying schools make money out of you.)

I wish you the best though, its a tough decision and a commitment that both you and your family will have to make for many years to come. I wish you well.

[waren9]

And what are the JQ and QF pilots doing about it other than sitting here on PPRuNe bitching about it?

If you belonged to a union and stopped thinking about yourself for 5 min you'd know the answer to that.:hmm:

[The Green Goblin]

Everyones going on about how cadet schemes will result in lower pay for everyone across the industry but has anyone actually got anything other than speculation to back that up?

The UK has been running cadet schemes for quite some time, anything that backs up that having a cadet scheme has lowered wages for those more experienced F/Os or Capts? Any job losses because of it? I have searched quite a bit online and found nothing that supports cadet schemes resulting in reduced conditions for existing FOs and Capts.

The reality is that cadet schemes are no different to standard apprenticeships. You do the basic training, you become an apprentice to start learning the more practical skills on a considerably lower than average salary and then as you get the experience you move up the ladder.

Someone explain how cadet schemes are any different to an apprenticeship.

In the UK first it was the low cost carrier. Then it was pay for your endorsement. Then it was pay a ****load of money for a cadetship, then pay for your endorsement. (meanwhile all the wages where coming down as supply of pilots rose).

It has finally culminated in pay for your cadetship, pay for your endorsement, pay for 500 hours line training along with your own accommodation at outports.

Guys are doing this because they think there is a pot of gold waiting for them at emirates if they do.

So basically unless you're in a legacy carrier in Europe, it is pretty hard to get an FO position that pays the bills at all. In fact, you pay to fly the aircraft!

All this because "I had a wife and kids, and needed to get ahead". Problem is there is always someone else willing to go lower as can be attested to the rot in Europe.

NZ will be next. Just wait till the boffins work out how much you lot are prepared to pay for 500 hours line training!

Living the dream.

[PhoenixNZ]

Actually Yes, I already have. Was about $50k to be an SO with V Oz but turned it down as I didn't think they where paying enough for the position. Turned down Cathay the other day for the same reason.


The difference is that I'm perfectly happy taking $60k given that I'm fresh out of training.

They are taking action, but all that is happening is the likes of you are undercutting them. What the pilot group needs to do is make under cutters lives so sh!t that no one would dream of doing it. Then the likes of QF and JQ would have to pay more for experienced pilots.

Again it seems your punishing us for simply taking the best deal around. For being human in other words. Why not punish those who made the offer in the first place. Or better yet, why didn't you while you were in GA push for better wages so that these offers aren't so good for new pilots?

[PhoenixNZ]

In the UK first it was the low cost carrier. Then it was pay for your endorsement. Then it was pay a ****load of money for a cadetship, then pay for your endorsement. (meanwhile all the wages where coming down as supply of pilots rose).

It has finally culminated in pay for your cadetship, pay for your endorsement, pay for 500 hours line training along with your own accommodation at outports.

Guys are doing this because they think there is a pot of gold waiting for them at emirates if they do.

So basically unless you're in a legacy carrier in Europe, it is pretty hard to get an FO position that pays the bills at all. In fact, you pay to fly the aircraft!

All this because "I had a wife and kids, and needed to get ahead". Problem is there is always someone else willing to go lower as can be attested to the rot in Europe.

NZ will be next. Just wait till the boffins work out how much you lot are prepared to pay for 500 hours line training!

Living the dream. And NONE of that has currently had any negative impact on the existing FOs has it? They haven't had to take paycuts or faced massive redundancies.

So what do the current FOs in NZ have to worry about when all this has done so far is impacted on new pilots to airlines.

If you belonged to a union and stopped thinking about yourself for 5 min you'd know the answer to that.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

I dont currently work for an airline so I have no need to belong to a union. When I do get into an airline I'll by all means join one and when I feel my pay/conditions aren't up to scratch I'll be on the frontlines with the rest of you.

You guys are all responsible for yourselves. Your all saying I'm just being selfish but if I dont look out for me then who will? Something tells me none of you are any different. Your all looking at how these cadet schemes will affect YOU. Lets be honest, you wouldn't care if it wasn't affecting YOU. The difference is that there are lots of the YOUs out there that you can band together with.

Me on the otherhand, I'm on my own so I'm just looking out for me.

[The Green Goblin]

The reason you are happy with 60k sheep shagger, is you are not a Pilot. You have not learnt your craft, you have no experience, and nothing to give.

Once you have a thing called experience and can call yourself a Pilot, you will realize your skills are worth far more than 60k.

You will then get pissed off when guys like you offer to prostitute themselves for next to nothing, have no real skills and pretty much dumb down and de skill the profession.

Would you be happy having your family driven across NZ by a 17 year old who just got his/her drivers licence at night in poor weather? Or would you offer to drive instead :ok:

[PhoenixNZ]

You will then get pissed off when guys like you offer to prostitute themselves for next to nothing, have no real skills and pretty much dumb down and de skill the profession.

Thats the difference between the two of us. I wouldn't get pissed off at the guy doing the driving, I'd be pissed off at the guy who offered him the car

Can you really blame a 17 year old for wanting to drive? Isn't it ulitmately the car owners job to ensure that the drivers is up for the job.

Thats my whole point here folks. Your blaming the cadets for taking what is realistically a great offer for someone of our level of experience. When in fact its QF/JQ who are giving us the jobs in the first place.

[The Green Goblin]

It has had a huge impact on existing FOs.

The FOs became Captains and bit their tongues.

Many potential Pilots could not afford to get into the industry due to the high cost of entry.

Those with experience went overseas and are now expats as they can't afford t work from home.

Your future ain't in NZ mate. Get used to speaking Arabic or mandarin if you ever want a return on what you think you're worth.

Pity though, cause guys like you will head over there too dragging those T&Cs down with them.

Like the Jetstar group contract or the substandard rishworth Jetstar contract. If not enough guys apply, the condition improve until they get their numbers. If no one applied to the cadetship, it will be modified to attract more applicants.

Unfortunately you're too short sighted to see it.

[waren9]

Me on the otherhand, I'm on my own so I'm just looking out for meSo. How do you think thats gonna go for you when you're up against Buchanan, with his cheque book in his back pocket....all by yourself, and another cadet who'll do your job for $10 less than you will.

This is like shooting like fish in a barrel.

Here's a tip. Save yourself and your innocent family about 7 years of shaftings from Jetstar (about the time it'll take for you to finally pull the pin) and go do that Degree.

[Di_Vosh]

The really sad part about PhoenixNZ's contribution to this thread is that he pretty much had the same conversation about a month or two ago. I'm not sure why he'd think that anyone would have changed their mind about him or the attitude that he's shown.

As I posted in that previous thread, if the J* cadetship is the financially best option for a Kiwi to get his/her aviation career, then I'd have taken a different career path.

Phoenix, just remember, you chose to get into this profession. Remember that in 6 years time when your contract isn't renewed because the crop of cadets are willing to do it for less than you.

DIVOSH!

[PhoenixNZ]

Like the Jetstar group contract or the substandard rishworth Jetstar contract. If not enough guys apply, the condition improve until they get their numbers. If no one applied to the cadetship, it will be modified to attract more applicants.

I totally agree that if no one applied then they would have to change it. But whats the likelyhood that your going to convince everyone who wants to be a pilot not to apply?

So instead, why dont the existing drivers say "We aren't willing to fly with anyone who has gone through the cadets program as they are unsafe to fly with". You guys are the ones with the numbers and the power. I have no power as an individual to change anything in the industry, you guys do. You want something changed, then get out there and change it.

[PhoenixNZ]

The really sad part about PhoenixNZ's contribution to this thread is that he pretty much had the same conversation about a month or two ago. I'm not sure why he'd think that anyone would have changed their mind about him or the attitude that he's shown.

As I posted in that previous thread, if the J* cadetship is the financially best option for a Kiwi to get his/her aviation career, then I'd have taken a different career path.

Phoenix, just remember, you chose to get into this profession. Remember that in 6 years time when your contract isn't renewed because the crop of cadets are willing to do it for less than you.

If no-one protests against the unacceptable then it will never change. You dont think Martin Luthor King gave up just because the first time he tried everyone ignored him?

[The Green Goblin]

Trust me sheepshagger, we would all love to shun the programs and refuse fly with anyone involved with it.

Check Captains would love to refuse to line train them.

Unfortunately this is called illegal industrial action. Individuals are liable for financial damages to the company.

Meanwhile everyone grits their teeth and gets on with it. This is why in Australia there has been a lot of court action, senate enquiries and a somewhat unified pilot body.

[PhoenixNZ]

The real world:

Who has the problem: Existing pilots
Who is responsible for doing something about it: Existing pilots

The existing pilots world:

Who has the problem: Existing pilots
Who is responsible for doing something about it: Everyone else

Its the cadets who miss out under you guys solution. Cadets get punished for doing nothing more than taking the best opportunity available at the time.

And I would bet a lot of money that if ANY of you were in the same position today that you would be applying right along side me.

Also no one as yet has shown any sort of proof that cadet schemes have negatively impacted aviation as a whole. Also no one as yet has given any explanation of how a cadets scheme is any different to any other apprenticeship type program.

From my seat here: A bunch of old pilots who hate change for the sake of change. Well times are changing peoples, change with them or be left behind. Those are the choices.

[The Green Goblin]

Bruce, haven't you got a Japanses Airline to kickstart?

I think you should stop wasting time stirring up the troops and get back to work :ok:

[PhoenixNZ]

Also I'll mention that this whole thread started because of the news that the JQ cadets would be getting similar conditions now to standard F/Os. They can now only be used and abused for two years.

So its win/win for pilots/cadets. The cadets get better conditions and the pilots aren't being priced out of a job.

It may mean that JQ stops getting cadets but that would in part depend on exactly why the program came about in the first place. If it was purely a cost cutting measure then that may not work any more. However if it was partially due to difficulty recruiting enough pilots so they wanted to make it easier then that should continue.

Time shall tell.

Bruce, haven't you got a Japanses Airline to kickstart?

I think you should stop wasting time stirring up the troops and get back to work http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Can't see a belt without hitting below it? What are you doing on a forum if you dont want to have an open exchange of ideas.

[Keg]

why dont the existing drivers say "We aren't willing to fly with anyone who has gone through the cadets program as they are unsafe to fly with".

You may be in for a shock. Whilst it's illegal to refuse to fly with a cadet- as others have pointed out- it's very legal to stand one down if they show themselves not up to the required standard. My understanding is that just this thing has occurred in J* recently.

So now you owe a huge training debt and aren't even being paid the pittance you were 'happy' to accept. You'd better hope you're an ace and don't find yourself in that situation.

[waren9]

Phoenix

You are either mgmnt or HR.

Goodnight.

[slamer.]

"The Roman leader Julius Caesar recorded the earliest known version of this proverb, 'Experience is the teacher of all things,'

PNZ... I think you will find this out the hard way.





The goo gobbler.... you are an idiot...... please continue.

[Muff Hunter]

Or you can do what some JQ captains are doing, not let them have a sector.

I have heard a JQ Captain nearly lost his job due to a cadet fark up, visual approach I believe (on 34 into MEL I think).....:ugh::ugh:

[Keg]

You'd better hope you're an ace and don't find yourself in that situation.

Another quick thought. Given that your cadetship was based upon min standard as quickly as possible and to minimum cost, the chances that you've actually got good enough training to know what you don't know is doubtful.

Muff, twas the example I was thinking of. Knew it was MEL but hadn't heard specifics.

[Di_Vosh]

I gotta say that you're great entertainment for a Sunday night Phoenix.

Also I'll mention that this whole thread started because of the news that the JQ cadets would be getting similar conditions now to standard F/Os. They can now only be used and abused for two years.

So its win/win for pilots/cadets. The cadets get better conditions and the pilots aren't being priced out of a job.



In Australia! Not in NZ! Your T&C's will still be a **** sandwich! Because of people like you.

Also no one as yet has shown any sort of proof that cadet schemes have negatively impacted aviation as a whole.

Disagree. Plenty of people on this thread (and on the other one) showed you how this kind of cadet scheme has resulted in lowered T&C's. It's just that you refused to believe it because it didn't fit in with your viewpoint.

(Note, I'm talking about the J* "indentured labour" cadet scheme, as opposed to the traditional QF/CX cadet schemes that paid their cadets good money).

DIVOSH!

P.S. I'm not sure how comparing yourself to the good Dr. King has much relevance to this thread...

[Di_Vosh]

I have heard a JQ Captain nearly lost his job due to a cadet fark up, visual approach I believe (on 34 into MEL I think).....

34 from sheed was it?

[KRUSTY 34]

waren9, close old mate, but G.G. By Jove, I think you've got it!

I've just had a moment of clarity chaps. I thought I had heard some of PNZ's pontifications somewhere else.

It was with an ABC Journalist!

Most real pilots would deny that individual 02. Maybe time to do the same here. :suspect:

[toolish]

Phoenix NZ

You actually started out OK but after that did yourself and all the other cadets no favours at all. :=

You are correct it is the company we should fighting on this cadet issue but what have chosen to ignore is the fact that we have been fighting hence the increase in YOUR T&C.

You talk about not flying with cadet. What is happening is that we can't refuse to fly with them so instead we fly and you will be allowed to move the flap and gear lever and maybe an odd radio call as long as you don't stuff that up.

I actually dont have a problem with what you are saying I have a problem with the ATTITUDE you are displaying. If you enter my flight deck with that attitude you will be going home and on the flexi line policy expect to live on closer to 40K and good luck with those sims.

[slamer.]

PNZ .. Whats the demographic of your cadet course...?

[balance]

Phoenix NZ:

Thats the difference between the two of us. I wouldn't get pissed off at the guy doing the driving, I'd be pissed off at the guy who offered him the car

Can you really blame a 17 year old for wanting to drive? Isn't it ulitmately the car owners job to ensure that the drivers is up for the job.

Thats my whole point here folks. Your blaming the cadets for taking what is realistically a great offer for someone of our level of experience. When in fact its QF/JQ who are giving us the jobs in the first place.

Prima Facie this seems logical, doesnt it?

Phoenix, the problem with your logic is that the 17 year old driver is being repeatedly told by the older more experienced drivers that he shouldnt be doing what he is doing. And when the 17 year old has an accident BOTH the 17 year old and the guy who offered him the car EQUALLY culpable, because NEITHER listened to what they were told.

Remember my friend, your arse is in that aircraft too. Along with hundreds of punters, and plenty on the ground who need you to make it from point A to point B safely.

The guy who offered the car isn't necessaily in that car with you. So there is an excellent chance that this fella want to make some dough, and he isnt fussed about some risk assessment, he just wants the cash. You can see the conflicting interests, I'm sure.

So mate, listen to the wise people on this thread. Stop with this immature attitude that you are displaying. Get the experience up, earn the respect of your peers, and only then will you be able to do this job without being a danger to yourself and others.

[PhoenixNZ]

Question:

Given that the cadets program in the UK has been going on for quite some time now, has there been any documented evidence that these cadets have been involved in any more incidents than a standard pilot has been?

Everyone is coming to the conclusion that cadets are worse pilots than existing/experienced ones but I'm just curious if this is in any way a proven fact or just an assumption that everyone is jumping onto because it supports their own point of view.

I'm not saying your wrong, logic would suggest that if you have more experience then you are less likely to have an incident, but is there anything out there that actually backs up your statements.

The other point I'll make is simply around the availability of jobs in the GA sector. I dont know about Australia but certainly in New Zealand they aren't exactly a dime a dozen. There need to be the jobs available first before one can actually get there.

I'm not 100% certain of going into a cadet program straight out of training. I can certainly see there is some benefit to GA flying for a year or two first. But when push comes to shove if the option is have no job or get into a cadet program, I know which one I'm going for.

You are correct it is the company we should fighting on this cadet issue but what have chosen to ignore is the fact that we have been fighting hence the increase in YOUR T&C.

I dont ignore that at all. I think its great that the unions have been able to get a good outcome. But regardless I dont think its right to be abusing people for taking what is a good job offer just because you dont yourself like that job offer because it MAY (and I stress the word MAY because to my knowledge no existing pilot has lost his/her job or had a reduction in their pay because of the cadet program) have a negative impact on you.

As I've said all along, I completely understand why existing pilots disliking cadet programs I can see where they are coming from. The existing pilots on the other hand make no such effort to understand the position of the cadets being offered these programs. They instead simply abuse and degrade them for simply doing what the cadets feel is their best option.

And in reality I would say that 95% of them if they were in the same positions when they started their flying careers, they would be signing up right along side me. Because what sort of person passes up double the pay and a chance to jump start their career when they are new out of training.

[Angle of Attack]

No, Basically Jetstar cadets have caused an absolute $hitfight, and if i was offered a job when I was in GA NO I would never have accepted it because $hit still smelt like $hit back then! I have never paid for any endorsement in my whole life and I have still worked out OK lol! (ie winner not loser!)

[32megapixels]

"Because what sort of person passes up double the pay and a chance to jump start their career when they are new out of training''


This is the reason the industry is attracting the wrong type of person. Not that long ago it was someone who was in love with the art of aviation that would do what they could to secure their first job and build up skills through a variety of different routes in aviation. Military, GA (charter/instructing) etc. You actually have to deal with people and get some people skills!

Remember, double a dollar is only 2 dollars, but it aint gonna pay the bills when your on that for the next 6-8 years of your life!

Just a side note, maybe you'll also rely on automation so much you won't know what the do when the ****e hits the fan - Air France sound familiar??

Get some skills first!!!!!:ok:

[Fondair]

Pheonix, you raise some great points and I appreciate that you put in the time and effort to get those points across. Especially to a community that in general doesn't agree with you.

I've missed the ab-initio boat but if I can I will definitely try to get into an advanced cadet course.

[Keg]

...has there been any documented evidence that these cadets have been involved in any more incidents than a standard pilot has been?

No. There is no documented evidence. Wanna know why? Because it's not in the airline's interest to do the research. They'd look like dills if it came out that cadets in fact WERE involved in a greater number of heavy landings, Captains taking control, bank angle warnings, etc. No longer could they hide behind their bold statements about cadets being just as safe as everyone else. No longer could they base their recruitment plans on two arms, two legs, a pulse and a wad of cash.

The other issue of course is that they're simply considered a 'pilot' once checked out and so very little data is kept as to their background. It's all put down as 'total hours'.

I do hear of people citing 'research' that points to bad habits in skills of non cadets but I've yet to actually read that research. Strangely, that research tends to be quoted by purveyors of cadetships. However, we're not just talking about the ability to 'stick and rudder' an ILS to minima, any monkey can do that. It's about controlling the fear that comes with not much fuel and an aeroplane all over the place and THEN sticking the ILS that is the real trick. Of course, many pilots with lots of experience use that experience to avoid having to be 'aces' in the first place but at least they've seen it before for when it happens.


Everyone is coming to the conclusion that cadets are worse pilots than existing/experienced ones but I'm just curious if this is in any way a proven fact or just an assumption that everyone is jumping onto because it supports their own point of view.

Lol. The naivety of youth. It's a proven fact that lack of experience leads to situations that require superior skills to get out of. It's a proven fact that sometimes superior skills aren't enough or the others supporting you don't have them. Air France proved that not long ago. So did Colgan before that. Heck, even the recent Safety digest shows what happens with a combination of poor training and poor discipline come together.

So arguing about whether it's an assumption or a fact may make you feel warm and fuzzy but for those of us who do this for a living year in, year out it really doesn't make much of a difference. There is NO substitute for experience and when you fly with someone who lacks it, you are going to have to be extra vigilant. That my friend, is a fact.

[The Green Goblin]

May I also point out after Kegs wise words that he was in fact a Qantas cadet (now a Qantas 767 Captain), so if anyone can give balance to the equation. It's him!

Of course the cadetship Keg went through is vastly different to what is being spun by the likes of oxford and co. I would have given my eye teeth to get into the Qantas cadetship of old.

Traditional cadetships I fully support and believe it adds a good mixture of cadet, GA and military to the Pilot mix. (having cadets as copilots however was quite painful on the Metro, but they were very enthusiastic and had a great ability to learn. These guys were also the cream of the crop who were selected, not the ones who had the money)

Surprisingly Qantas used to send their cadets to a regional airline (flying Saabs, Metros etc with operators such as Airnorth,Pearl, Macair, Skippers, Brindabella) to get a few years experience before letting them in the back seat of a longhaul jet for a few more.

Go figure!

Cheers

[PhoenixNZ]

Not that long ago it was someone who was in love with the art of aviation that would do what they could to secure their first job and build up skills through a variety of different routes in aviation. Military, GA (charter/instructing) etc

This is EXACTLY my point. Cadets are simply doing whatever they can to get their first jobs in the industry that they want to work in.

Simple reality is that GA jobs in NZ are hard to come by. Growth in the aviation industry is all in the airlines, no one hears about Eagle, Mt Cook or Great Barrier Air doing massive expansions.

The jobs are in the airlines. The paths to those jobs is through cadetships. And yet cadets are getting **** on because of it. How is that fair?

No. There is no documented evidence. Wanna know why? Because it's not in the airline's interest to do the research. They'd look like dills if it came out that cadets in fact WERE involved in a greater number of heavy landings, Captains taking control, bank angle warnings, etc. No longer could they hide behind their bold statements about cadets being just as safe as everyone else. No longer could they base their recruitment plans on two arms, two legs, a pulse and a wad of cash.

I agree, if these incidents are happening then the airlines aren't likely to want to publicise it. But what about the unions. The people who are actually speaking to the pilots being affected. Have none of them done any sort of research, even if its just based on anecdotal evidence, into issues around cadets performance. Surely it would give their case against the airlines much much more weight.

Traditional cadetships I fully support and believe it adds a good mixture of cadet, GA and military to the Pilot mix.

As I'm fairly new to aviation I'm unsure the difference between the "traditional" cadet programs and the ones of today. Any chance of highlighting the main differences?

(having cadets as copilots however was quite painful on the Metro, but they were very enthusiastic and had a great ability to learn. These guys were also the cream of the crop who were selected, not the ones who had the money)

I can assure you that none of the six of us doing the current course we are on are ones who have money. We have all taken on student loans and are living it rough on student allowances to get to where we want to be in aviation.

I can also assure you that we are all very enthusiastic to learn and are all more than capable of being great pilots. None of us are getting into this on just a whim because we think it would be fun to fly a fancy jet.

Again this all comes down to necessity for a large part. If the only option in town (or even in the country) is to be a cadet so that we can make a career out of flying, how are we being sellouts or scabs etc etc for doing so. Its not like we have much other choice.

[The Green Goblin]

Simple reality is that GA jobs in NZ are hard to come by. Growth in the aviation industry is all in the airlines, no one hears about Eagle, Mt Cook or Great Barrier Air doing massive expansions.

The reason they are not recruiting is because people like you are jumping the line.

Guys used to leave the regionals for an airline gig. Why would they leave now to take a pay cut and pay 40k for an A320 rating?

The only ones interested in these schemes are cadets and DEC who are coming home after making their money in the sandpit.

As I'm fairly new to aviation I'm unsure the difference between the "traditional" cadet programs and the ones of today. Any chance of highlighting the main differences?

Everything was paid for. In Qantas' case, the cadet paid for their CPL/MECIR and were looked after from there (regional placement, seniority number, mainline slot after 2-3 years of regional placement).

I can assure you that none of the six of us doing the current course we are on are ones who have money. We have all taken on student loans and are living it rough on student allowances to get to where we want to be in aviation.

Now think about how you're going to pay that loan off (circa 100k) on 48k and buy a house, while supporting the wife and kids. You can't.....Hell I struggle on twice that.

I can also assure you that we are all very enthusiastic to learn and are all more than capable of being great pilots. None of us are getting into this on just a whim because we think it would be fun to fly a fancy jet.

You will never become a great Pilot. You may become a great systems manager. You cannot become a great Pilot flying an airbus all day on autopilot while the Captain takes the tricky sectors and you never make a decision.

In an Airbus you just point the stick where you want it to go, and it will fly there. It does not take a great Pilot to do this. It takes a great Pilot to rescue it when the computer ****s itself (Air France cadet at the controls vs Qantas crew over learmonth).

[PhoenixNZ]

The reason they are not recruiting is because people like you are jumping the line.

Guys used to leave the regionals for an airline gig. Why would they leave now to take a pay cut and pay 40k for an A320 rating?

The only ones interested in these schemes are cadets and DEC who are coming home after making their money in the sandpit.

Because we have no other options currently. Are you suggesting we just sit around for a few years on an unemployment benefit just so that we can hope that it will open some jobs in the regionals?

Everything was paid for. In Qantas' case, the cadet paid for their CPL/MECIR and were looked after from there (regional placement, seniority number, mainline slot after 2-3 years of regional placement).

Which sounds very very similar to how the cadet schemes will now work (in Aus at least) with the new contract. The main difference being that they are going directly to mainline rather than doing the regionals.

Now think about how you're going to pay that loan off (circa 100k) on 48k and buy a house, while supporting the wife and kids. You can't.....Hell I struggle on twice that.

Then your doing something wrong? I'm sorry but anyone who cant manage on $48k has some serious budgetting issues going on. Also I have no intention of staying on 48k for my entire career. I'm just happy to accept it right now while I build the hours and experience I need to move onto something better. Most likely that will be in the sandpit but that doesn't cause me any great concern. Like most jobs you have to balance money with lifestyle.

You will never become a great Pilot. You may become a great systems manager. You cannot become a great Pilot flying an airbus all day on autopilot while the Captain takes the tricky sectors and you never make a decision.

And thats different to the current drivers who have spent the last 10 years doing the same thing how? Experience is only relevant if you keep it updated. Just because 10 years ago you were able to do a glide approach in your broken down plane doesn't mean you can do the same today if you haven't had to keep doing the same thing over the years to keep the skills active.

[Oakape]

I have been following this thread since the beginning & have been trying to remain objective as I read & think about everyone's point of view. I have stayed out of the debate as it can be a very emotive topic & I didn't have much to add that hadn't already been said by parties on both sides of the fence.

However, I do have to disagree with the following -


Just because 10 years ago you were able to do a glide approach in your broken down plane doesn't mean you can do the same today if you haven't had to keep doing the same thing over the years to keep the skills active.


I can still perform skills I learnt years ago, as I am sure most people can. I may not be as good at them, but I can still perform them to a satisfactory standard.

Unlike those who never learnt the skill in the first place. That is one of the differences between skills & knowledge.

And -


Experience is only relevant if you keep it updated.

Experience doesn't get 'updated' - it just is. Any 'updating' is new experience, which is added to the experience pool the individual already has. It is knowledge, once again, that needs to be constantly updated.

[The Green Goblin]

Just shot himself in the foot!

At least GA is starting to recover to decent salaries now these wannabes hit the airlines instead of raping GA.

Hell you can earn more living in Alice flying a piston twin than you can flying A320s for Jetstar NZ.

Go Figure?

[PhoenixNZ]

If I can find a good GA job over the ditch then thats cool. Again, the main reason I'm going for the cadets program is simply a lack of options.

My point all along has never been that the cadet programs are the best things for aviation. Simply that its unfair to abuse the cadets for taking up one of the only options currently around for them.

[toolish]

Pheonix
I agree nobody should be abusing the cadets, play the man not the ball.
We should be and are fighting the company on the issue but I need to tell you Pheonix all you posts are doing is bringing the focus back to the ball.:ugh:

Old versus new cadet programs that is where the problem is
Old- With established reputable airline with a rigourous C&T system where properly screened and suitable candidates are accepted, get trained properly, get experience(industry placement), learn their craft like a sponge from the third seat.:ok:

New- With a low cost airline with no resources available(they cost too much) with a C&T system under pressure and relatively inexperienced churning out ANYONE with a cheque book and a pulse to sit in the RHS and put with relatively inexperienced, under resourced, overworked, disengaged Captains whose only priority is to ensure the cadet doesn't f%^k up (which the company would hide anyway because the cadets are such a good product) an try to save his job (because we all know who the fall guy will be).:mad:

That is the problem, DO YOU GET IT YET :rolleyes:

[PhoenixNZ]

I always understood the pilots problem toolish. The pilots on the other hand never seem to understand the cadets problem.

$100k debt with very few job prospects, the only opportunities are in jobs where established people will hate you even though your only doing the best you can to be the best that you can be in the industry you want to be in.

The grass isn't much greener on this side of the fence.

[Keg]

My point all along has never been that the cadet programs are the best things for aviation. Simply that its unfair to abuse the cadets for taking up one of the only options currently around for them.

Bzzz. Thank you for playing. It's NOT 'one of the only options currently around for them' at all. The 'abuse' that you reckon it is- which it's not- is people who have been around for a while trying to tell you that it's NOT the only option around. There are other, better options that ultimately will serve you more effectively in the medium to long term.

So you're wrong on two counts.
1. It's not the only option
2. You're not being abused, you're being given information that you don't agree with and don't want to see. That you consider it abuse would cause me concern as to how effectively you can operate in a multi crew situation because there are going to be many times in your career that you get told that you're wrong and operating on flawed assumption regarding a particular thing. If you're as thin skinned on the flight deck as you are on PPRUNE then you're not going to have a particularly enjoyable career.

The pilots on the other hand never seem to understand the cadets problem.

$100k debt with very few job prospects, the only opportunities are in jobs where established people will hate you.....

Oh Puh-lease. Cry me a freaking river. You don't think some of us haven't started our careers carrying debts? You don't think some of us haven't started out careers with low experience levels? You really are deluding yourself. Take the blinkers off.

[porch monkey]

No skills left after 10 years or so? Read Sullenbergers book? If you haven't, I suggest strongly that you do. That's what experience AND training get you.

[Anthill]

PNZ, I have been sitting here on the by-lines watching the development of this thread for some time now. It is plain that you need some advice here on the nature of the industry and how it works. As you are at the 'pre-cadet' phase of your career, you have no industry experience on which to back up your career decisions. This forum can provide some free advice to you from many who have been in the industry a long time. Whether you take it or not is up to you.

There are some who will hold it against you personally for taking a cadetship. I personally wont because I am forgiving and understand that the lure of a jet job is overwhelming to those who aspire to fly. I was there once, too. However, in my career (21 years in airlines, 5 years in GA and 4 years private flying before that), I have never paid for a heavy aircraft type rating (3 Fokker and 4 Boeing). What I and other Training and Check staff wont forgive is professional inability.

I have seen many who have gained employment at VB and J*who did pay for their type rating. I dont hold that against them. The fact that I did not tick the box on the on-line employment forms that said 'I am prepared to pay for my own type rating prior to employment.'. meant that I did not ever recieve the nice e-mail from J* or Virgin Blue requesting my presence for an interview. However, there are plenty of employers who recognise that they need to pay for quality staff, such as Vaustralia where I now work on the B777 (type rating supplied by company and salary above that of a comparable position at J*). You can find these emplyers, too, but you will need some experience to justify your employment by them. Go and get it in GA.

My objection to the J* cadetship is twofold. Firstly, it is a really, very bad deal. The contract is all in the employers favour at you can so easily be put to a profound financial and career disadvantage. You will be literally selling your soul to buy into this. I can see how easily this can end in bankrupcy for anyone who signs up for this and in circumstances that are through no fault of their own whatsoever(I have already given advice to a young friend of my daughter regarding this - he has just been accepted into the ADF :ok:).

The second objection is the quality of the training. Traditional cadetships have the employer paying for the training. As they needed a high quality product at the end, they subjected candidates to rigourous assement prior to selection of cadet pilots. Examples of this are BOAC/BA, BEA, Lufthansa, Vietnam Airlines. QF, RAAF, USN, JAL etc etc. In each instance, the successful candidate was typically a straight 'A' student, 120+ IQ, demonstrated teamwork skills, athletic and healthy, psychometric and cognitive skills in the top 3%. In each case, cadets either spent years as a SO or go on a hands on type aeroplane where stick-and-rudder skills are honed. These organisations got the best staff because they were willing to pay for it. The current employment paradigim is that if you have money, you can buy a job. The primary implication of here is that of a latent safey threat. To quote E.K. Gahn's 'Fate is the Hunter' - "in this game, we play for keeps". Our operating environment is intollerant of any incapacity, inability or neglect. We need the right people with the right attitudes and the right skills.

There is no fast track to this last attribute of skills. They come with an amalgam of time, experience and personal application. You will learn more in a GA environment than you will taking a 'crash' course in being an airline pilot. You will be better paid for it, too. Furthermore you will have greater career flexibility should there be an industrial upheaval that puts you out in the street (and I would say that on historical grounds that there is a VERY good chance that this will happen at some stage in your career).

I can see how tempting the J* cadetship appears, but the contract sucks. You have to look at any employment scenario as a business deal. And this one stinks to high heaven! The fault isn't with you, it's with the emplyers who make demands that pilots take the financial burden for training. It is a way to subsidise the airline's operation. Hopefully, the rest of the industry will follow the example set by the VA B777 long haul operation and pay for rating will become a thing of the past.

[adsyj]

Phoenix

There is not much more that i can add by way of advice that hasn't already been proffered by many pilots with years and years of experience in the game. What I will say is listen, you are not being abused.That would be very easy to do given the current highly charged and emotive atmosphere that we are currently experiencing within the QF Group.

I do empathise with you to a degree and you have expressed and argued your stance on this board with a certain amount of maturity which implies to me you are a reasonably imtelligent bloke. Nobody wants to stand in your way of chasing a career in aviation. But in my opinion you (and other JQ cadets) are being used as pawns by a despicable management group who after they have finished with you will toss you aside like yesterdays rubbish.

You simply cannot trust them or believe that they are interested in your career. You are being used to undermine Pilots T & C's I promise you that is the case.

There was an earlier poster who used the saying "short termitis" and you should really consider this. Do you want to be a good pilot or a factory made robot? What if you get to Jetstar and suddenly you find out that you are not cut out for the lifestyle, **** money or worse still Jetstar doesn't like you. To bad you have gone all in on your first hand, and that could hurt.

My nephew attends a private school here in Sydney in Year 11, Jetstar have been at every careers day pushing hard, much to my nephews dissapointment I have given him and his parents the same advice. Like you it is very difficult to convince him this is not the right way forward for him.

Mate I know it is a bugger of a place to be in and all I ask of you is to rather than dismiss the advice from very very experienced aviation professionals, listen, research, research some more and make a decision based on reality rather than emotion or excitement at flying a jet.

As has been said on here many times before if you really want it and are prepared to sacrifice, work hard and develop your skills as a pilot you will make it. Life wasn't meant to be easy and I know from my own experience being an airline pilot wasn't meant to be easy.

[PhoenixNZ]

@Keg

Cadets have repeatedly earlier in this thread been referred to as scabs, sellouts and told they only get what they deserve if something goes wrong. Thats being abused. Thats what I object to.

I've personally been referred to as being HR or management, which in the context of this discussion is certainly not meant as a term of endearment. All because I have a different perspective/point of view than the others.

@Anthill and adsyj

Thanks for your well thought out and articulated posts. I'm by no means going into any programs such as the cadet program with blinders on. Ideally I'd love to find a good GA job flying a twin for two years before I start moving into a more airline based environment because I do think there is benefit to starting smaller and moving upwards.

It will all at the end of the day be based on whats available. I'm yet to find any website that advertises NZ pilot jobs so either there just aren't any available or they recruit through other means. If your aware of any I'd love a link.

Ultimately I'd rather be a JQ cadet than unemployed and not flying for a year waiting for a GA job to come around.

Cheers
Phoenix

[The Green Goblin]

Ideally I'd love to find a good GA job flying a twin for two years before I start moving into a more airline based environment because I do think there is benefit to starting smaller and moving upwards.

You really have not done your research.

You will not be let anywhere near a piston twin until you have a least a 1000 hours of experience under your belt. This will take a minimum of two years to achieve.

Thinking back to myself as a green CPL it was a huge learning curve to operate a single engine aircraft as a charter Pilot. The amount of stuff ups and errors of judgement was quite scary looking back with hindsight.

I'd hate to be doing that with a couple of hundred soul behind me.....

[PhoenixNZ]

The issue still comes back to the availability of jobs. As you pointed out GG cadet schemes mean less of those GA jobs being available. If the jobs aren't there, how do you get them to start out with.

Its a bit unreasonable to expect cadets to be unemployed waiting for a job when there is one in the industry that they can actually get into.

[donpizmeov]

I think the new definition of ironic is: "Jetstar pilots complaining about someone undercutting their job and profession."


The Don

[The Green Goblin]

There is lots of entry level jobs.

Most of your bros end up on the mainland doing the annual Mecca to northern Australia. Most get jobs and lots of experience.

[PhoenixNZ]

GG - Any good website to keep an eye on for these jobs?

I've found Australian Federation of Air Pilots - AFAP - Pilot Jobs (http://www.afap.org.au/Jobs/Latest-Jobs/AFAP-Pilot-Jobs-.asp) however I'm yet to find a single job on there thats suitable for a 250 hour CPL unless they have an instructor rating.

[takingover]

You will not be let anywhere near a piston twin until you have a least a 1000 hours of experience under your belt

I got my first twin job on a PA31 with only 370 hours total time, so it does vary. In fact, it was my first flying job ever. That was back in the mid 80's though, and things may have changed somewhat now.

PhoenixNZ, you will probably have to move to OZ to get a GA job, if you decide to change direction & go that way. Job's in NZ are few & far between. They always have been & probably always will be.

[The Green Goblin]

www.afap.org.au

Do a search on pprune for a thread called information regarding the top end. Lots of info and hopefully it will change your life.

When you sign up to be a pilot, you are signing up for a lifestyle with the good and the bad.

It was never going to be easy and there are no shortcuts without huge catches. Going the GA route you can pick your airline and take your skills where they are rewarded and remunerated accordingly (just like airline management do shock horror!)

[John Citizen]

Ultimately I'd rather be a JQ cadet than unemployed and not flying for a year waiting for a GA job to come around.


Basically that means you are just too lazy to put in the hard work and lack any persistence.

You haven't even got the patience to wait only 1 year and do something else such as stack shelves in Coles whilst waiting for that GA job ?

How about waiting for up to 5 years, like some people have done ? :eek:

But persistence and hard work pays off, obviously you lack these qualities and you are just looking for a quick short cut to the top.

Management are exploiting people like you to bring down the terms and conditions for the whole industry. Thanks mate.

To be honest, GA flying is some of the best flying you will ever do and its a pity you will miss out on it. If only GA paid as much as the airlines did, many airline pilots would probably go back to it :(

I'm yet to find any website that advertises NZ pilot jobs so either there just aren't any available or they recruit through other means.

You won't find a job sitting at home clicking away at a computer. Buy an old beaten station wagon (the best a GA pilot can afford), pack all your belongings in the back and make the well trodden pilgrmage out bush without any guarantee of success. A big risk but most land on their feet eventually.

This is all part of the fun actually and you will back on it one day with very fond memories, though it might not seem like fun at the time.

[psycho joe]

I have no issue with traditional cadetships per-se, nor do I believe in GA for GA's sake; But for anyone to justify a specious self funded cadetship as being their only option conveys an image of lazyness and naivety.

I've met lots of self funded cadets over the years in a few different countries and on a few different aircraft types. Every one of them to a tee thought they'd found a genious method of climbing that slippery pole faster than the the sucker who started in GA. Every one of them had a master plan to get some quick time and bugger off to greener pastures. Quite a few ended up unemployed for a number of reasons (economic downturn, company restructure, political expedience, pissed off the wrong guy) And every one of those to a tee discovered the unempoyability that comes with that awesome endorsement that has to be paid off, low TT and no Command time. A few reconciled themselves to a career in the right hand seat. I recall gaining a command over one such individual and I'll never forget the look on the guys face after the relevant management pilot explained to him (slowly) that the company had neither the spare resources (Training Captain) nor the inclination at that time to give him the required ICUS. Bitter? you bet. But he had nowhere to go. He'd screwed himself with a greasy pole cadetship.

[Tidbinbilla]

Phoenix,
You will find it very difficult to get a job with less than 250hrs by surfing the net and waiting for the job to come to you.

You will need to get off your arse, and cold call - maybe even travel around the country and knock on doors to find that job.

If you're not prepared to put in some hard work now as a newbie - you'll never make it in an airline.

Sorry, but that's the reality of the industry.

[27/09]

PNZ
I'm yet to find any website that advertises NZ pilot jobs so either there just aren't any available or they recruit through other means.

You're correct on both the lack of a website and recruiting through other means but wrong when you assume there are no jobs out there.

There are quite a few jobs out there in NZ, perhaps not as many as OZ or in some cases as well paid as Oz but they're there. There is no website and very rarely is there ever any adverts in other media. The fact you lament the lack of a website advertising jobs in New Zealand demonstrates your lack of understanding of the industry.

Why is there no website? Simple the jobs are filled by keen pilots and pilotesses who get out there and get in front of prospective employers. In many cases their first job is where they learned to fly. Employers don't need to advertise, most GA jobs are fill by word of mouth.

Unfortunately for the likes of yourself training at CTC, since their focus is entirely airline orientated, you do not get exposed to the avenues that GA can offer and how and where to find these jobs.

As Tidbinbilla stated,
You will need to get off your arse, and cold call - maybe even travel around the country and knock on doors to find that job.

By the way, the whole CPL MEIR package can be done for a fair bit less than $100,000 at most places. Is that what CTC charge?

[Chadzat]

How about waiting for up to 5 years, like some people have done ?

Looxury! Back in MY day, we had to wait 10 years to even get allowed in the door of a hangar to sweep, let alone a full blown charter office! Of course, that was AFTER getting up at 2am, cleaning the lake that we lived in, having a breakfast of cold gravel and walking 10miles with no shoes to get to the front door of said hangar!

/end monty python

Sorry! Just had to sneak that one in, do continue with the excellent debate over cadets.

Just to stay on topic- Phoenix- PLEASE listen to the advice on here. Although it sounds harsh, most people on here ACTUALLY have your best interests in mind when posting advice.

[Anthill]

Pheonix, I had 400+ hours by the time I got my CPL. I flew the tug at a gliding club and also a C206 at a skydiving club on a PPL. I got my first job at Moorrabin with a bare CPL - no instrument or instuctor rating. I had 600 hrs before the Boss let me fly the Seneca :O.

Mate, be inventive and get creative, you will find a way, as we all did. Like Pyscho Joe, I have met guys who did the CPL and jet TR only to find they were up the River Merde' sans paddle when a downturn came and they got laid off: no command time and limited operational experience means no portability of qualifications. In this industry, you HAVE to be able to be portable. You can expect to move many times during your career.

My additional advice to anyone in the industry these days (at any level) is DO NOT CARRY A LARGE DEBT :suspect:

Chad, in my day, you needed 2000 hrs to be allowed to WASH the Kingair :8..

...and you had to grovel to do that!

[PhoenixNZ]

Anyone have any thoughts on the Qlink cadets program?

[mcgrath50]

Not in QLink so those that are may hold a different opinion but
a) QLink still pays for your type rating and fronts up most of the cost of the traineeship (you salary sacrafice it back)
b) You are 100% guaranteed to be put on the EBA
c) It doesn't seem to be totally replacing direct entry

Read the forums, there is a lot less bitching about it than Jetstar, I assume for the above reasons!

[adsyj]

Good onya Phoenix

Look at everything and make direct comparisons. Mate it will happen if you make it happen.

Good luck:ok:

[eternity]

PhoenixNZ,


If you want to go for a cadetship then go for it.

I dont agree with what the airlines are doing but I do understand how people can be 'lured' into cadetships.
Being an "Airline Pilot" is a really 'cool' job......or so it seems. And kids can be fast tracked into it these days. Sure the pay is crap but it usually doesnt matter because these 19 years olds are usually still living with Mum and Dad. If they have to move, they'll flat with 3 other blokes and have a great time!!!

But it's only when you get into your late 20's - early 30's that you dont want to live with 3 other guys in a party house anymore, but you want to settle down, buy a house etc; you pull out the calculator and it tells you that you cant do any of that...


PhoenixNZ, when I was your age (Im assuming your around 14.....15??), I would have gone for a cadetship if they existed....but they didnt so I went out bush and spent time eating flies and experiencing the "stink"....and I ended up in an airline anyway. Looking back on it now (it was only a couple of years ago), I am glad that I did time in GA because it taught me skills and gave me confidence that I can handle myself in scary situations. Hopefully I never need to utilise that confidence ever again...but I know that I have it.
These are things that you probably wont experience as a cadet pilot.....until many years later when the bars on your shoulders stand for "Its All Your Fault" - and you have a 200hr fellow next to you......and then you are both going into unchartered waters togather. Now thats scary stuff!!!!

You complain that there are limited options out there.....not true. There are many opportunties out there, you just need to go looking for them. There are plenty of kiwis that have come over to Oz, got a car and headed up north, and they all found jobs....its not hard.


Over the last few days you must have typed thousands of word into this thread. Instead of spending hours upon hours on this forum, I suggest that you spend that time studying for a cadet interview or starting to ring operators around the place, instead of winding these old buggers up.



Eternity.

[PhoenixNZ]

@Eternity

Your about 10-11 years off my age there mate. Married with two children is kind of hard when your 15 lol.

Going bush as you put it is all well and good when your single and have no other real responsibilities but its unfortunately not the same when you have a family to look after. Its unfair on my family to drag them from place to place searching for a job.

Now one could say that I should have done this earlier, studying to be a commercial pilot that is, and thats well and good. No one however knows my personal circumstances so aren't really in a position to comment on that. I could also have skipped doing it all together but its never to late to pursue ones dreams.

I'm more than happy to do the hard yards to get into a job but I will never do something thats going to put my family in undue hardship just for the sake of posterity.

I've got another year left in my training so these aren't decisions I'm faced with immediately. Who knows, a year is a long time and changes to cadet programs may well either make them less attractive or alternately change them so they are more suited to everyone in the industry.

My points in this discussion were never about whether or not the cadet programs are good or bad or otherwise. Its always been about making sure the blame goes in the wrong place so that those 19-20 year olds who are cadets aren't getting **** on by other pilots for no justifiable reason.

As I've said (repeatedly) blame the program and those who run it. Dont blame those who join up when they believe its their best option.

[The Green Goblin]

I'm more than happy to do the hard yards to get into a job but I will never do something thats going to put my family in undue hardship just for the sake of posterity.

Undue hardship? :D welcome to the Jetstar cadetship!

On a side note you will not work initially in NZ. You dont have the required experience :D

This means you will have to come across to Australia to get 500 hours experience.

Luckily Australian Pilots were so outraged over the Jetstar cadet programs and contracts we had a senate enquiry. The results recommended a minimum of an ATPL (1500 hours) to work as a first officer on jet aircraft.

The unions were also involved. Now cadets are required to be on the EBA, and their training bond has been reduced along with paying less for the program.

This has basically caused cadets to become more expensive the direct entry guys. Coupled with the extra sectors to get them up to speed, and the recent 'incidents' I think the whole thing will die a quick death. Sucks if you're caught in the middle of it after paying the sharks.

As for Jetstar, they are now getting 'free' highly experienced Pilots from Qantas which will fulfill their recruitment needs for the short term.

As for the 'free' bit, who do yo think is paying for the cost of retraining and endorsements? It won't be Jetstar!

[Going Nowhere]

QLink is much better than JQ cadet scheme.

As McGrath said,


EBA
ICUS to fulfill ATLP req (It takes time, but gives you plenty of time to learn along the way too)
Dash endo is via bond
Trainee cost is repaid via bond (but you only get 3/4 back I believe)


Of all the trainee/cadet schemes out there, it seems to be the only one with a decent outlook.

Read all you can about each option and make a choice, just don't be lured by a f$&King jet, you'll fly one eventually! :ok:

[PhoenixNZ]

It never was about flying a Jet.

It was about flying and getting money for it. More money than GA would even be offering for my level of experience.

The QLink one looks good, only trouble I can see is that I wont have Aus ATPL passes, only NZ ones.

[The Green Goblin]

You've got a year to go get them!

I'd suggest checking out advanced flight theory in QLD. 6 week course and it will be a breeze if you're fresh from NZ theory. In fact, don't even bother with the NZ ones. Get your CPL, convert your licence in Australia, do the Australian ATPL subjects and once you can hold an Australian ATPL you'll be able to get one issued on the basis in NZ too. Head north, build some command time and join the ranks of guys who can call themselves Pilots. Take your Mrs and kids. I'm sure it will be an adventure for them too. Kununurra 2004 was a good place to be (hey fellas)....

As for more money? Puleeeease.... You can get 65k driving a piston twin now (I was getting just under 50K in 2006 driving piston twins). You'll also get about 95k-110k to be a turboprop skipper these days which is looking like a better career than a low cost carrier earning less than 50k after paying for your endorsement (Bras, dash etc)

Most guys are taking pay cuts to fly jets for airlines. In fact a turboprop FO is doing better than a Jetstar NZ FO. They also have their training covered and are paid from day 1 of their training.

Hell you will be earning a similar take home pay flying as a single engine VFR Pilot in Australia as you will a Jetstar FO in NZ. Play the exchange rate and it's even better (circa 30%).

Don't get ripped off.

[PhoenixNZ]

My NZ ATPL is part of my course which is student loan funded so I will be doing them regardless.

With NZ ATPL done it shouldn't I would hope take much to get my Aus ATPL theory. At the end of the day a plane is a plane in any country lol.

[The Green Goblin]

Maybe, but wait till you tackle the aviation regulation which is Australia :rolleyes:

[big buddah]

Your NZ ATPL subjects on your course will be absolutely useless as a cadet at Jetstar.
You'll be flying a VH rego and any future upgrade will require 500hrs multi command.
Have a serious think about your future!

[The Kelpie]

FAIR WORK ACT 2009 (NO. 28, 2009) - SECT 206

Base rate of pay under an enterprise agreement must not be less than the modern award rate or the national minimum wage order rate etc. If an employee is covered by a modern award that is in operation

(1) If:

(a) an enterprise agreement applies to an employee; and

(b) a modern award that is in operation covers the employee;

the base rate of pay payable to the employee under the agreement (the agreement rate ) must not be less than the base rate of pay that would be payable to the employee under the modern award (the award rate ) if the modern award applied to the employee.

(2) If the agreement rate is less than the award rate, the agreement has effect in relation to the employee as if the agreement rate were equal to the award rate.

If an employer is required to pay an employee the national minimum wage etc.

I Wonder how this provision of the fairwork act relates to the rate for the Junior First Officer rate agreed to by AFAP in the recent cadet deal that was done??

Perhaps one for you Lawrie??

[Duff]

Can anyone tell me if the DE guys in the hold pool from last year are getting starts?

[ACT Crusader]

Kelpie - what are you implying in quoting section 206? Are the rates agreed to between AFAP and J* lower than the Modern Award?

Clause 206 basically ensures the integrity of the "safety net", for instance if these FO are going to go on an enterprise agreement (which is happening) then this section ensures that when the better off overall test is applied that their pay can not be lower than the Modern Award at any point in time of the life of the agreement.

[The Kelpie]

ACT.

The better off overall test is a separate matter in order for FWA to approve the enterprise agreement.

This clause relates to the basic rate of pay and provides that the enterprise agreement cannot stipulate a lower basic rate of pay than the modern award. If it does, the
Modern Award rate together with the appropriate additions to pay Will prevail.

Basic Rate of Pay is not one of the flexible provisions allowed within the Modern Award.

As we all know the JFO does not exist under the modern award and therefore under the award, by definition, they are just classified as a FO operating a narrow bodied jet.

There is a substantial difference between the rate in the jetstar EBA and the Modern Award that would be aplicable to the guys.

As always my legal interpretation.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[waren9]

Thats curious Kelpie. If so, why did AFAP sign off on it?

[The Kelpie]

To get a 'neutral cost agreement' given that Jetstar have to extinguish the cadet funding agreement and refund training monies paid to date??

Who knows??

I do know that the cadets are effectively part time so this may account for some of the difference.

Thats why i asked for Lawrie to possibly answer this one.

[The Kelpie]

I've had another look at this issue and read the AFAP cadet deal in conjunction with the flexi-line arrangements and I calculate that the cadets have been potentially shortchanged by approximately $20,000 - $26,000 per annum based upon my understanding of section 206 of the Fair Work Act.

Essentially, according to my understanding the deal that has been struck is not compliant with the Fair Work Act. No wonder that JQ management Snapped Afap's hand off and rushed everything through when the deal was being struck!!

Unfortunately for management the correct way to deal with this situation is for the salary within the agreement to be corrected in line with the Act.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Lawrie Cox]

Kelpie
The position is that the cadets were brought back under the coverage of the existing EBA. The rates were established prior to the introduction of Fair Work and the minimums of the Air Pilots Award. You might also read the transition legislation in addition to the section quoted and you will find that the rate will not exceed the minimum prior to the expiry of the current agreement and the future agreement then is covered by the section you quote.

Note also that cadets do not have the ATPL experience requirements and stay on the JFO rate for a maximum of two years, then auto transition. Where experience level held go straight to level one F/O.

Further all parties agreed the position including the Qantas pilot group.
Hope this clears up the misunderstanding.
Lawrie Cox
AFAP

[The Kelpie]

Thanks for the reply Lawrie

The position is that the cadets were brought back under the coverage of the existing EBA. The rates were established prior to the introduction of Fair Work and the minimums of the Air Pilots Award.

True. But like it or not the Jetstar EBA is now considered under the FW (TP&CA) Act 2009 to be a transitional instrument and more particularly an 'agreement-based transitional instrument' and it is now dealt with under the transitional provisions legislation as you quite rightly point out.

You might also read the transition legislation in addition to the section quoted and you will find that the rate will not exceed the minimum prior to the expiry of the current agreement and the future agreement then is covered by the section you quote.

You might want to verify that this is the case by seeking further legal opinions. There is a widely held legal view that whilst almost all of the provisions of the EBA must continue until expiry, and to the exclusion of the Modern Award, as of 1st January 2010 the provisions relating to base rate of pay similar to that of section 206 apply to all agreement-based transitional instrument covered parties (Schedule 9, Part 4, Paragraph 13 of the FWA Transitional Provisions etc Act). It is only during the 'bridging period' (1/1/09 - 1/1/10) defined by the Act that your understanding is appears to be correct.

(the Jetstar EBA is considered an agreement-based transitional instrument for the purposes of the Fair Work Act)

Note also that cadets do not have the ATPL experience requirements and stay on the JFO rate for a maximum of two years, then auto transition. Where experience level held go straight to level one F/O.

I acknowledge this is the case but this is of absolutely no relevance to the establishment of the minimum base rate of pay under the Modern Award since the Air Pilots Award does not stipulate that an ATPL licence is a pre-requisite to be paid the rate for a narrow bodied aircraft together with the appropriate additions to salary under Schedule B. In fact under the modern award the requirement by the employer to hold an ATPL licence should attract a further addition of $4,146.58 to the minimum FTE salary quoted below.

Under the Modern Award I calculate the minimum salary for a First Officer flying a narrow body aircraft with additions for Turbo Jet and Instrument Rating to be $84,561.16. This is minimum Full Time Equivalent (FTE) salary that should be applied to the JFO role on the Jetstar EBA operating as a Transitional Instrument.

Under the Flexi-Line arrangements the FTE for a JFO is $57,118 as the agreement provides for a pro-rata calculation to be made. Based on a notional roster of 56 hours their salary, save for the conditional provision of a minimum salary would be much less. Whilst the flexi line arrangements provide that the cadet will receive the above figure as an annual minimum regardless of the number of hours flown this is caveated on the basis that the cadet must fly 'all duties as directed' to qualify for this minimum payment. Given that the 56 hours under the flexi-line agreement is purely notional i would expect management will be rostering a much higher number of hours for cadets (which they cannot refuse according to the contract to qualify for the min salary) to get the maximum value out of the 57k paid to the cadets. Why will management do this? - because it will not necessarily cost them a cent more in Extra Flying Allowance. This is to the detriment Of all level 1 and above FOs.

Further all parties agreed the position including the Qantas pilot group.

And? Assuming there is a different understanding of the Act, Since when can agreeing parties opt out of the laws of the land? Further what allows an employer to attempt to use the agreement of the parties to indemnify itself against the requirements of the Fair Work Act?

Finally Lawrie you previously said:

Kelpie you mistake the fact that the Federation is industrial relations (IR) not public relations (PR) or spin, the documents are our newsletters and the work of the Jetstar Pilot reps.

Based on the newsletters you have published and the seemingly fundamental problems with the Cadet deal unfortunately I have to question whether this is indeed the case. Time to change your legal advisors I think!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[OneDotLow]

Lawrie Cox wrote :

Further all parties agreed the position including the Qantas pilot group.

Are you where Bruce Buchanan gets his "Qantas Pilot's Union" line from when referring to AIPA ? ? ?

Last time I checked, AIPA was the chosen industrial association of around 65% of Jetstar Pilots.

[Di_Vosh]

Last time I checked, AIPA was the chosen industrial association of around 65% of Jetstar Pilots.

ROFLMAO!

And how many are members of both unions? Plenty more than 35% of J* pilots are AFAP members. :bored:

One of my mates is a J* A320 captain and he's telling me that J* pilots who joined AIPA last year are pretty disillusioned with them and are now leaving AIPA to join the AFAP.

Something about Lots of talk, lots of spin, AIPA are doing this, AIPA are doing that, but zilch when it comes down to actually doing anything...

DIVOSH!

[Muff Hunter]

DiVosh,

you are incorrect with your numbers....

AIPA have around 60% of the numbers (with the mou pilots coming it now closer to 65%)

AFAP have around 15% percent...

[The Kelpie]

Where is Lawrie shouting victory from the rooftops now??

The silence is deafening!!!

[Keg]

Something about Lots of talk, lots of spin, AIPA are doing this, AIPA are doing that, but zilch when it comes down to actually doing anything...

Interesting. A casual read of the AIPA newsletter would show that the J* AIPA members have been well supported on grievances and legal issues over the last few years- enough for it to raise some eyebrows from QF AIPA members as to the allocation of resources and funding well out of proportion to the membership numbers. Still, it's the principle that matters and I don't mind spending the money on any member who has been done over.

[Condition lever]

Perhaps a casual read of the FWA transcripts would be more appropriate.
I have been a "sponsor" of AIPAs industrial naivete since joining Jetstar.
I cannot think of an issue where they have actually been successful.
The fact that the AFAP has been able to achieve something, has placed the doubt in my and many others minds, as to the benefits of continuing with AIPA.

[waren9]

A rather simplistic view there mate.

Its a bit harder in FWA when AFAP and company brown noses actively take Jetstars side. Something AFAP hasnt had to deal with I'll point out.

The issues that AIPA have been less successful with are less to do with its "naievity" and more to do with trying to defend pilots against company finding the holes in an EBA you could drive a truck through that you lot voted up.

[Condition lever]

Pretty sure the loss of the Jetconnect case had nothing to do with the AFAP or the Jetstar EBA.

[waren9]

Again, why the assertion of naievity?

The JetConnect case was about Qantas using loopholes and grey areas that the laws of neither country had forseen or given any protection against.

[toolish]

What has AIPA done-

Ok no legal battles won but management at least thinks twice before doing whatever it wants legal or otherwise.

Management now to some extent consults with the JPC as opposed to their previous definition of consulting, which was basically just telling the JPC what they are going to do.

They now consult with the JPC, AIPA and the AFAP.

Forced AFAP to start representing.

Therefore in my opinion AIPA has done a lot, we are in a much better position than we would have been otherwise.

[jibba_jabba]

Is it true that Jetstar are starting to ramp up its hiring again? And if does anyone know the contracts they have been hiring on and the bases?

[Keith Myath]

Kelpie, you are barking up the wrong tree. As Lawrie has pointed out, the Jetstar EBA is a pre Fair Work EBA. The BOOT (better off overall test) did not apply and nothing has been tested with regard to the transitional arrangements from Workchoices to the Fair Work Act with respect to the Jetstar EBA.

If a cadet has a problem with the base pay then all they have to do is start the grievance procedure as outlined within their EBA. Before they do that they should have a look at what the Air Pilots Award (what the BOOT test is compared against) provides for FO’s on A320 equipment.

Air Pilots Award $81,781 (Base = $71,397, Jet = $5,524, Instrument = $4,860).

Jetstar Junior FO 2011 $57,118 + 6% Retention = $60,545.
Jetstar Junior FO 2012 $58,831 + 6% Retention = $62,360.

The Cadets are on the flexi line deal but guaranteed the full time JFO pay (the above pay rates). The flexi line deal is a part time policy with 75% availability (working 15 days per month instead of 20).

If you apply the same pro ration to the Air Pilots Award, you end up very close with $81,781 x 0.75 = $61,335. So a commissioner my be less sanguine than yourself when confronted with a bolshie cadet, who originally signed up for a crap $42,000 NZ contract, with 6 years of debt servitude. Remember, the Cadet is not paying a single cent for their training under this deal (originally they were paying in the vicinity of $80,000), in fact, they are having all monies paid to Jetstar REFUNDED!!

Thanks to the AFAP’s legal strategy, the cadet has been blessed with incredible good fortune. They signed onto a crap NZ deal, and then walked away with free training and an A320 endorsement, enough seniority to be based on the east coast of Australia and covered by a collective agreement.

There will be no more cadets with this luck.

Where is Lawrie shouting victory from the rooftops now??

The silence is deafening!!!

Kelpie, you are being mischievous and stirring up trouble. If AIPA want to test this arrangement, go right ahead, but as the Majority of Jetstar pilots are discovering, they haven’t been successful in any single attempt. Instead, they have been setting dangerous precedents left right and centre by challenging and loosing weak cases time and time again. These precedents ultimately weaken any future challenge before they get started. Sometimes it is better to keep your powder dry and fight from a position of strength.

For those with the AIPA blinkers still firmly strapped to their noggins, have a close read of the AIPA insights dated 2 September 2011 which relates to the Jetstar Cadet issue and answer one question:

Insights
The result would not have been possible without your support in challenging the Company and asking why the need existed to circumvent the EBA. Of course, impending Federal Court Cases by both AIPA and the AFAP, as well as the complaint lodged by AIPA with the Fair Work Ombudsman, created a very strong incentive for the company to solve this problem out of Court, and to its credit the Company has seen reason in this instance an changed its approach to dealing with AIPA.

WHAT IMPENDING FEDERAL COURT ACTION IS AIPA TALKING ABOUT???

I would contend that the only reason the company saw any sense with regard to the Cadet issue (and flexi line employment) is that the AFAP were putting the companies balls in a vice with their two applications in the Federal Court. I challenge anyone to find AIPA’s application to the Federal Court.

AIPA has been caught with their pants down in dealing with the biggest threat to the Jetstar pilot EBA and ultimately collective bargaining in this industry. If Jetstar was successful in undermining the pilots EBA, the contagion would have spread through the industry, eventually undermining every collective agreement including the Mainline longhaul agreement. Thank your lucky stars there are still some AFAP stalwarts in Jetstar that saw off this threat. Red ties and sternly worded PA’s are no match for the ruthless operatives at the helm of Jetstar.

[Kangaroo Court]

:ok:Probably the best written post on here in the last 2 years!

[The Kelpie]

Keith

With the greatest of respect it is you that are barking up the wrong tree.

The BOOT applies only to Enterprise Agreements made since the FWA was introduced and to EBAs made under the WR Act during the FWA bridging period as defined in the transitional provisions legislation. The legislation absolutely does not require or suggest that the BOOT should be applied to agreements made under the WR Act.

It is this fundamental misunderstanding of the Act that you do not seem to be grasping. I would encourage you to personally read both the Act and particularly the transitional provisions legislation and the wealth of information available on the internet on this very subject. If you want to be sure that you are talking fact then you should do the research yourself instead of listening to, and being pursuaded by others who quite obviously have a fundamental misunderstanding of the requirements of the Act. For a union that represents a large number of members this is very disturbing as these guys should be the smartest in the room when it comes to the requirements of this Act.

The transitional provisions legislation classifies all existing EBAs as 'transitional instruments' and more particularly 'agreement based transitional instruments' and calls for all existing EBAs signed prior to 1/1/09 to remain in force. There is an exception to this in relation to Base Rate of Pay and complying with the NES which i will cover later. To verify the correctness of this statement that i have made I would encourage you to go onto the FWA website and look up Schedule 3 of the Fair Work (Transitional Provisions & Consequential Amendments) Act 2009.

The following is extracted from an article written by Professor Andrew Stewart and was published in the Piper Alderman publication Employment Matters, March 2009. It summarises the legal situation of tge Jetstar EBA. (my bolding)

Status of old agreements

Any agreement-based transitional instrument that is in operation when the FW Act commences will continue in force, until terminated or replaced. This covers a collective agreement, certified agreement, workplace determination, s 170MX award, Australian Workplace Agreement (AWA) or ITEA made under the WR Act, as well as a preserved State agreement or an old IR agreement.

Such agreements do not just apply to the original parties, but to any new employees who fall within their coverage.

There is no sunset or ‘drop dead’ date for agreement-based transitional instruments – except those involving a non-national system employer, which cannot operate beyond 27 March 2011.

The permissible content of any old agreement is generally determined by whatever ‘content rules’ applied immediately before the commencement of the FW Act. Hence, for example, any workplace agreement made between 27 March 2006 and 30 June 2009 will remain subject to the ‘prohibited content’ rules in s 356 of the WR Act.

However, where an agreement confers any function or power on the AIRC, for example in relation to dispute resolution, the agreement will be taken to refer to FWA instead.

Old agreements will also generally be subject to whatever ‘interaction rules’ applied before the commencement of the FW Act, in determining whether it prevails or has priority over some other transitional instrument.

Modern awards will be generally be inapplicable while an old agreement remains in force. The main exception here is a pre-reform certified agreement (ie, a collective agreement made under the WR Act prior to Work Choices). This can operate alongside a modern award, though it will prevail over the award to the extent of any inconsistency.

[bold]As with EAs made under the FW Act, the basic rates of pay set by an old agreement cannot be less than the minimum rates set by a modern award or a national minimum wage order.[bold] If that requires a significant wage increase as from 1 January 2010 that would threaten the viability of a business, the employer can apply to FWA to phase in the increase.

Old agreements, like other transitional instruments, can generally be enforced under the compliance provisions in Part 4-1 of the FW Act. But no injunction can be granted by a court to restrain a breach of a transitional instrument.

Keith, you also make reference to the cadet agreement. Again, read it, carefully, and you will see that when read in conjunction with the FlexiLine agreement in does not stack up as you suggest.

The flexi line deal is a part time policy with 75% availability (working 15 days per month instead of 20).

....and a threshold of 56 flight hours per roster period after which Extra Flying Allowance (EFA) is paid according to the provisions of the EBA. You casually left that bit out!!!

As far as the cadets are concerned the $56k is not a payment for 56 flight hours per month as the flexi-line agreement and you suggest, it is a minimum payment to undertake all flight hours as directed by management within the 15 duty days. The flexi line agreement clearly requires a pro rata calculation to be made by dividing the $56k by 12months and then by 75flighthours. The result is then multiplied by 56flighthours to determine the new salary under flexi line.

Using the stated pro-rata calculation, A Cadets adjusted base salary under flexi line is $42,468 for working 56 flight hours. In order to qualify for the minimum payment provided for under the seperate cadet agreement they must work all additional duties as directed.

If you think the cadets will be paid 56k for flying 56 hours per month you are even more niave than i thought and you should read the documents, your comments on here suggest to me that you have not done so up to this point. Once you have read the documents you will clearly see that your calculations to demonstate equality between the JFO rate and the modern award are fundamentally flawed!!

Spot the JQ management slight of hand? Flight hours are the basis of pro-rata for salary then duty days are the pro-rata for when you have to work and not flight hours!!! WTF. At least that is what is written!!

Finally, the FWA definition of Base Rate of Pay does not allow the inclusion of allowances, bonuses and such like so these cannot be considered when drawing a comparison between the base rate of pay under the Jetstar EBA and the Modern Award.

Keith, i have no problem with you calling me mischevious but please only do so when you can present an argument that shows this to be case. So far you have failed to do this.

The fact that Lawrie has not responded to my previous post perhaps shows that there may be truth and fact in what i am saying. If the information you have posted is straight from the AFAP party line then let Lawrie fight his own battles and be held to account when the truth comes out. After all it is his job to be accountable to the membership for allowing AFAP to be hoodwinked by JQ managment. The best he can do now is not to bury his head in the sand and use the legislation to sort this situation out.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

Ps. Regarding the extinguishing of the cadet funding agreement - refer to clause 16.5 of the Air Pilots Award under which they were working for Jetstar Group prior to being taken under the EBA recently!!! It should have gone when they started with Jetstar Group. Do not even start the argument that this was a concession given by Jetstar Management.

[Keith Myath]

OK Kelpie it time to sharpen the pencil. I understand the BOOT and its application under the FWA of today. I was using it to highlight the fact that using the BOOT the cadets ARE better off than the award. I also understand your contention that old EA’s (the Jetstar EBA) cannot pay less than the minimum rates set by a modern award. You have provided an academic’s thesis on the subject, which is nice and comfortable in academia, but a commissioner he isn’t and ultimately that is what counts in the real world. But before we get into the argument of the application of the transition arrangements, lets have a closer look at the Air Pilots award and how it compares to the Junior First Officer rate of pay in relation to the Cadets.

Firstly, the Air Pilots Award provides for a base pay of $81,781. This rate of pay is for a full time pilot. The award describes the full time pilot as one who’s “ordinary hours of work must not average more than 38 hours per week.” The generally accepted application of a 38hr week is 5 work days and 2 days off (refer 24.6). So here is where I sharpen my pencil. 5 workdays per week equates to 260 workdays per annum. NOTE – Public holidays are provided for within the Award annual leave of 42 days AND the minimum wage (refer 31.1 of the award). Cadets are provided with 42 days of Annual Leave. Cadets ALL work 15 days per month, which equates to 180 workdays per annum. The cadet is working 69.2% of a full time equivalent pilot as prescribed by the award (refer 11.4). 69.2% of the Award rate is $56,617. So we don’t need to get into a hollow argument over the transition arrangements when the Cadets base pay ($57,118 and $58,831 in 2012) is above the Air Pilots Award. The figures look even healthier when you consider that the Annual Leave HAS NOT been prorated under the Jetstar deal.

Keith, you also make reference to the cadet agreement. Again, read it, carefully, and you will see that when read in conjunction with the FlexiLine agreement in does not stack up as you suggest.

As far as the cadets are concerned the $56k is not a payment for 56 flight hours per month as the flexi-line agreement and you suggest, it is a minimum payment to undertake all duties as directed by management within the 15 duty days. The flexi line agreement clearly requires a pro rata calculation to be made by dividing the $56k by 12months and then by 75flighthours. The result is then multiplied by 56flighthours to determine the new salary under flexi line.

Using the stated pro-rata calculation, A Cadets adjusted base salary under flexi line is $42,468 for working 56 flight hours. In order to qualify for the minimum payment provided for under the seperate cadet agreement they must work all additional duties as directed.

BS. Your argument regarding flight hours are plain wrong and deceptive. A flexi line employee (all cadets are flexi line) is a part time employee with reduced availability. What additional duties are permitted under the EBA? Can they be directed to work on duty free days or days off? NO!

If you think the cadets will be paid 56k for flying 56 hours per month you are even more niave than i thought and you should read the documents, your comments on here suggest to me that you have not done so up to this point. Once you have read the documents you will clearly see that your calculations to demonstate equality between the JFO rate and the modern award are fundamentally flawed!!

I have read the documents. IF Jetstar roster the cadets for 56 hours flying per month for a year then the cadets WILL be paid the minimum salary of $57,118. THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE AGREEMENT THAT WAS STRUCK FOR THE CADETS!! Where is your EVIDENCE that the cadets will be paid less than $57,118. Your pro-rated $42,468 salary is utter tosh and has no basis in any agreement. You have invented this amount to back up your argument. The cadets will only have to work 15 days per month and be paid a minimum of $57,118.

You are selectively reading parts of the old Workplace Relations Act, Fair Work Act, Transitional Provisions, Jetstar EBA and the Flexi Line agreement and coming up with a Camel. Again, if you think you have a case then go test it in front of a commissioner.

Now, hard nosed IR operatives (The AFAP) would look at the above picture and think very carefully before encouraging any Cadet to start a grievance regarding their base rate of pay. You rely on an academic argument regarding untested transitional arrangements and have overlooked the fundamental premise that they are already above the award base rate of pay for a part time pilot. It looks to me as a classic case of READY…FIRE…AIM. That is why I assert that you are being mischievous in encouraging young and impressionable cadet pilots to get bolshie regarding their base pay. There are always consequences for those who agitate frivolous actions. The AFAP get it in the neck for providing sound IR advice, it is not always popular but they have had their waterloo, and learnt that treading the popular path can end in tears.

To the Cadets out there, be careful with the shiny baubles, false promises and platitudes from AIPA. Remember, their submission to the senate enquiry was entitled “Are we handing the keys of the Ferrari to a bunch of P Platers?”

Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Rural Affairs and Transport Committee: Pilot training and airline safety including consideration of the Transport Safety Investigation Amendment (Incident Reports) Bill 2010: Submissions Received (http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rat_ctte/pilots_2010/submissions.htm)

Whilst the AFAP may not always take the popular path, they have achieved an enormous amount for you (and for the wider Jetstar pilot body) and genuinely have your interests at heart. There is no conflict of interest when it comes to the AFAP dealing with Jetstar pilots.

Ps. Regarding the extinguishing of the cadet funding agreement - refer to clause 16.5 of the Air Pilots Award under which they were working for Jetstar Group prior to being taken under the EBA recently!!! It should have gone when they started with Jetstar Group. Do not even start the argument that this was a concession given by Jetstar Management.

As for your assertion that the funding agreement was extinguished as a concession by Jetstar management – what the hell else was it. Jetstar CAPITULATED and accepted that they were on a hiding to nothing if they proceeded with the court action. They didn’t give up the funding agreement because they wanted to; they were forced to give the concession due ONLY to the AFAP’s court action.

Can you answer my question from the first post?

WHAT IMPENDING FEDERAL COURT ACTION IS AIPA TALKING ABOUT???

[The Kelpie]

Keith

I do not consider that I have provided an academic's thesis on any subject, I have simply referred to the Fair Work Act, the transitional provisions legislation and the other documents being discussed and presented the facts laid before me.

You said:

You have provided an academic’s thesis on the subject, which is nice and comfortable in academia, but a commissioner he isn’t and ultimately that is what counts in the real world.

Are you suggesting that the Commissioner has a free rein to determine as he sees fit or is it not, certainly in this case, that he simply has to determine on the correct application of the Act?

Firstly, the Air Pilots Award provides for a base pay of $81,781. This rate of pay is for a full time pilot. The award describes the full time pilot as one who’s “ordinary hours of work must not average more than 38 hours per week.” The generally accepted application of a 38hr week is 5 work days and 2 days off (refer 24.6). So here is where I sharpen my pencil. 5 workdays per week equates to 260 workdays per annum. NOTE – Public holidays are provided for within the Award annual leave of 42 days AND the minimum wage (refer 31.1 of the award). Cadets are provided with 42 days of Annual Leave. Cadets ALL work 15 days per month, which equates to 180 workdays per annum. The cadet is working 69.2% of a full time equivalent pilot as prescribed by the award (refer 11.4). 69.2% of the Award rate is $56,617. So we don’t need to get into a hollow argument over the transition arrangements when the Cadets base pay ($57,118 and $58,831 in 2012) is above the Air Pilots Award. The figures look even healthier when you consider that the Annual Leave HAS NOT been prorated under the Jetstar deal.

Where did this calculation get dreamt up from? - And you say I invent things!!

This is another argument all together, albeit I accept it is connected to the discussion in hand as it may provide one method of pro-rata to the minimum wage stipulated by the Modern Award, so I will endulge you in debate on this occasion.

Whilst in the normal working world a 38 hour week is generally regarded as 5 working days and 2 days off (the traditional 9 'til 5), both you and I know that this is not true of the life of a pilot. Clause 24.6 does not prescribe this working pattern it simply states that a normal roster period will comprise of 5 working days and 2 days off, it does not say that a pilot must work on each or all of those days. Practically for various reasons a pilot does not necessarily work this pattern and the actual pattern is generally determined by flight time limitations and company operational requirements. The fact of the matter is that there are no stipulations as to the pattern of work, the number of duty hours that a pilot must work, or indeed flying hours that a pilot must fly in the Modern Award. The fact is that there only exists limitations which cannot be exceeded, an average of 38 hours per week in the case of duty hours as provided for in the NES and 900 flying hours per year (together with the progressive totals) stipulated by CAO48.1.

The Jetstar EBA through Clause 23.1.1 suggests that a Full Time Pilot's salary as detailed in Clause 25.1 of the Jetstar EBA is based upon 900 flying hours per annum, the maximum allowed under CAO48.1 Flight Time limitations (without the Jetstar exemption issued by CASA). This would be the same 900 hour flight time limitation prescribed by the Award. I would suggest that it is more appropriate to use the commonality of flight time between the agreements as the basis for the pro-rata. Indeed it is exactly this method that the Jetstar EBA uses to establish the salary applicable to a part-time or job share pilot so it must be valid. In the interest of comparing apples with apples I would suggest the commissioner would see that this is a reasonable assertion to make despite the possibility that he or she is not an academic.

BS. Your argument regarding flight hours are plain wrong and deceptive. A flexi line employee (all cadets are flexi line) is a part time employee with reduced availability. What additional duties are permitted under the EBA? Can they be directed to work on duty free days or days off? NO!

Let me try to clarify what I meant. The flexi-line agreement provides for a reduced availability only as a direct result of the initial company requirement to offer contracts that guaranteed only a proportion of the full time credit hours in a given roster period which in turn, through the mechanism provided in the EBA, would lead to a reduced level of remuneration compared to a full time employee. The reduced availability in physical time was demanded as a secondary consideration by AFAP, and is in the same proportion to ensure the true part-time operation of the contract was preserved and to ensure it was not a full time role simply working less hours and being paid less.

What is actually happenning is the converse to that feared by AFAP in that the company is rostering cadets for a higher number of flight hours on the reduced number of available days (allowed due to roster flight hours being notional only), ie. a lesser number of longer duty periods but still within the reduced physical time provided for by the flexi-line agreement. The cadets must work these longer duty periods comprising more flight time as a condition to qualify for the minimum salary payment, clause 11 of the cadet agreement states (my bolding):

11. The Minimum Remuneration will only apply where the Cadet undertakes all duties as directed and the Cadet remains employed by JQA. The Minimum Remuneration will be pro rated in the event that a Cadet takes unpaid leave.

This is where the slight of hand takes place, and I feel you just aint getting it:

IF Jetstar roster the cadets for 56 hours flying per month for a year then the cadets WILL be paid the minimum salary of $57,118. THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE AGREEMENT THAT WAS STRUCK FOR THE CADETS!!

At last we agree on something!! Jetstar will pay a cadet as you have stated but only as a result of the minimum remuneration clause in the cadet contract. Unfortunately, as stated above what is actually happenning is that the company is rostering cadets for more than 56 hours per roster period but this does not necessarily lead to an increase in monthly salary payment. In fact they are actually being rostered for at least the full-time equivalent hours in each roster period.

This leads me on quite nicely to the next matter you wished to debate:

Where is your EVIDENCE that the cadets will be paid less than $57,118. Your pro-rated $42,468 salary is utter tosh and has no basis in any agreement. You have invented this amount to back up your argument.

I never said that the cadet would be paid less than $57,118 per annum, what I said was that a Cadet's adjusted base salary, (note, not minimum salary) under flexi line is $42,468 for working 56 flight hours and that in order to qualify for this to be topped up to the minimum payment provided for under the seperate cadet agreement they must work all additional duties as directed. Hopefully the remainder of this post will illustrate what I mean.

The following is taken directly from the Flexi-Line agreement:

1.1.2. Monthly base salary will be as defined by Subclause 25.1 of the Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement 2008 (‘Agreement’) and will be calculated by dividing the relevant fulltime Pilot’s base salary by 12 months then dividing by 75 Credit Hours then multiplying that figure by 56 Credit Hours.

1.1.3. All hours worked in a Roster Period greater than 56, where there is no Annual Leave in that Roster Period, will be paid in accordance with Paragraph 25.5.1 of the Agreement (i.e., Annual Salary / 787.0).

1.1.3.1. For example, if a FL Pilot performs 77 Credit Hours in a Roster Period and there is no Annual Leave in the Roster Period, the Pilot will receive the following:

Credit Hours 0-56 = Base Salary divided 12 months divided 75 credit hours multiplied by 56 Credit Hours; and

Credit Hours greater than 56 will be paid in accordance with Paragraph 25.5.1 of the Agreement (i.e., Annual Salary / 787.0 multiplied by 21 Credit Hours (77 Credit Hours minus 56 Credit Hours = 21 Credit Hours).
1.1.4. If a Pilot performs less than 56 Credit Hours per Roster Period, Jetstar will pay the Pilot for a guaranteed minimum of 56 Credit Hours per Roster Period.

For illustration purposes lets work through the example quoted in the actual agreement using the benefit of an actual cadet roster of 75 flying hours (900 hours per year or the full time equivalent) in a given roster period:


Credit Hours 0-56 = $57,188 divided 12 months divided 75 credit hours multiplied by 56 Credit Hours; $3,559 per month or $42,468 per year

Credit Hours greater than 56 will be paid in accordance with Paragraph 25.5.1 of the Agreement (i.e., $57,188 / 787.0 multiplied by 19 Credit Hours (75 Credit Hours minus 56 Credit Hours = 19 Credit Hours); $1,381 per month or $16,572 per year.

Total annual salary for the cadet rostered and working 75 flying hours per month (Full Time Equivalent)= 12 x ($3,559+$1,381) = $59,280.
The salary determined by the Modern Award as a direct comparison to the example given above is by your reckoning $81,781. Difference $22,501.

if you think you have a case then go test it in front of a commissioner.

In the legal profession we call this 'fortressing', it is usually seen where a lawyer believes his client's position is under attack and is in danger of crumbling. A lawyer will shut down, cease introducing new argument, put up the barricades and try and pass the buck to a third party. I am disappointed that our little debate has resulted in such a tactic.

Finally to a bit of unfinished business:

Can you answer my question from the first post?

Quote:
WHAT IMPENDING FEDERAL COURT ACTION IS AIPA TALKING ABOUT???

Sorry cannot help there, like I said previously you are are barking up the wrong tree!!

More to follow

The Kelpie

[toolish]

How does every post about Jetstar end up being a pissing contest between AFAP and AIPA:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

At some stage, probably when we qualify for government assistance due to our income levels, you guys may start realising where the main game is and we are losing that one big time.

AIPA - the thorn in Managements side, good work although the achievements may not make headlines.

AFAP - Jetstar manangements "friend with benefits" that due to AIPA sabre rattling have woken up from a deep sleep and realised it may not be in their best interest to be in the managements pocket. Good work should have started that work 8yrs ago.

AIPA and AFAP working together which is the only way to achieve a decent outcome, I guess it doesn't hurt to dream:zzz::zzz::zzz:

[Keg]

Great post toolish!

(Glad I caught the auto correct then. It changed 'toolish' to 'foolish'. Only caught it on the proof read otherwise it could have been very embarrassing! ) :ok:

[The Kelpie]

I understand the penny has dropped!!!

Hmmmmm