ATR type rating

[1 to go]

A company that I know is offering a JAA ATR type rating, 500 hours on type and then a fairly low paid job for a year for about €33000. Do you think that this is worth doing?

[maxed-out]

Hi

To be honest I think it's a rip off.

Do your rating (if you must do an SSTR) through a well known TRTO in the west country. I think you'll probably find something in Africa/Asia eventually; if you go on a road trip!!!

I have considered this option as well(ATR42/72) and just weighing up the pro's vs cons of this move. Currently it costs £15k for type rating incl base training.

Good luck

[mt206]

Be very careful. I was offered the same a while back by a "airline" in Ireland. Stupidly did the type rating with out having a contract before starting the rating. Nothing came of it and now have a ATR 42/72 rating and finding it very hard to find anything. If your not given a contract before the type rating I wouldn't do it as there are a few ATR guys on the market looking. Good luck with what ever you decide :ok:

[Point and Power]

Can I ask how many total hours do you guys have?

[Parson]

A curious question from an Airbus Training Captain?!

[Economist3]

1 to go

I've been looking at the same line, as I am an older low hours bod.
Is it Farnair? Hard call i am finding, maube thinking the market is not tight enough and should hold off.

The DAT offer looks better?

[magnificent_man]

Hi guys,

I am also very very gingerly thinking of doing an ATR rating with the well known west country school - as far as these places go its seems like a decent operation and i've just about saved up enough over time.
I am very low hours (220), frozen ATPL, was wondering if any of you think this is a good move? Always been massively against buying a rating but at least this is half the price of an airbus rating! My thinking is that you're more likely to get a low hour turboprop job with a rating than spending loads on an airbus rating and being stuck not having the magic 500h. I was advised by my MCC instructor (an ATR Captain) to go down this route, but tbh the idea of being stuck with a rating and no job to go to is extremley scary. Why not a Jetstream or a Saab rating? I have heard there are a few ATR jobs out there, Aurigny has no hours requirement, but will not accept applications without a rating. Am I being hugely naive about this?
Any advice would be great.

[Tekor Bali]

What companies in Europe use the ATR?
Is there someone on the forum who made the type rating with farnair?

[saucy jack]

With respect Tekor Bali, if you cannot find out for yourself who else apart from Farnair operates this plane then you should not be wasting your money buying a type rating.

I am a captain in a company (European ATR operator) that still pays it's copilots although at the moment they are asked to contribute to the Typerating at our own TRTO. Nationals of the home country involved are able to claim the majority of this cost back from their Employment Authority if they meet certain criteria.

Schemes like Farnair and Swift Air (buy yourself a rating and 500 hours) are disastrous for everyone because:

1. You WILL be kicked out afterwards to make way for a new mug, and more importantly

2. You WILL be destroying not only the market for pilots but also for the bona fide companies which could be offering you PAID work. Think about it; firms like Farnair and Swift Air subsidise their cheap ACMI rates by having Pay to Fly Copilots. This enables them to undercut the companies like mine pay their employees to work, therefore contracts are lost, companies fold and hey presto you have further reduced your chance of ever finding paid employment afterwards because yet another operator has bitten the dust. This is the bigger picture which is often overlooked and it is a self sustaining downwards spiral unless the chain can be broken.

In any event there seems to be movement in the market once again and I foresee genuine, not pay to fly, opportunities cropping up sooner rather than later.

For example, around 20 per cent of my co-pilot colleagues have already secured jet jobs this year with more on the way and it must be a similar story elsewhere...

The element of paying for the rating may not go away just yet, but the practice of pay to fly (especially in clapped out old ATRs which should by rights be one of your traditional first paid jobs) can be stamped out now provided folks keep their hands in their pockets. I know it sounds easy to say, but let the companies blink first by withdrawing these crap "offers" through lack of demand. Things will soon turn in your favour because their planes still have to fly to make money and they will need co-pilots...real, paid ones.

Best of luck to you all.

[maxed-out]

I agree in part with saucy jack regarding the ridiculous idea of ptf on a TP aircraft. However he fails to mention that most of these mainland European ATR operators have specific requirements, namely language and age( ageism).

Having done research into the ATR42/72 SSTR and the possibility of employment, the only thing holding me back (a little) is the fact that most operators want 1000 hours or more tt; especially Africa , Asia and the Middle East.

I would forget Blue Islands and Aurigny. They have enough people wanting a job who are residents of the Channel Islands. Residents can apply without the need for a TR. Outsiders need a rating to apply but will be shafted if a local wants the same job. If you do get the job as a non resident ( managed to get through the red tape that is) you'll probably only get some sort of 6 month residency agreement at a time anyway.

Dont get me wrong; as a "bare bones" rating (sstr), I think its better than any other type (I stand to be corrected) but be prepared to move far far away from home to find a job, convert your licence maybe (eg Tansania) and be prepared (if like me you only have circa 450 hours) to renew your rating at your own expense should you fail to get a job.

[Tekor Bali]

With respect saucy jack..
I wrote that post quickly because I was not using a PC. I am able to find which companies have the ATR. It was only a matter of time constraints with the connection. However, I want to tell you that you have misunderstood me:because I have absolutely no intention of buying a type rating and I am strongly opposed to the system of pay to fly.
It is more than 1 year that I'm trying my way into general aviation, knocking on doors, calling the FOPH, passing days in airports where there are bases of the executive company.I would find my work in this way, not through eaglejet and things like that.

[ftimesf]

I bought the type rating, have the type rating and am getting no value from the type rating!

The airlines want hours on type unless you're prepared to go in as a cadet with one of the Asian airlines on a three year contract, earn a pittance and fund your own travel back to the UK for your LPC and medical etc.

I'd really, REALLY think hard about doing this if money is an issue as it is not going to provide a job easily.

Chicken and egg scenario; airlines want hours and you can't get hours without without a job unless you're in the right place at the right time and are lucky.

[maxed-out]

ftimesf

Why don't you just bite the bullet and go to Asia anyway. You are going to have to pay to renew your rating anyway if you dont get a job.

Surely you didnt expect to only look for that ellusive first lucky break in the UK or Europe? Get 500 hours and who knows you might enjoy it and stay longer or come back home to sunny Britain and then apply to another airline with your heavy turboprop time!

[tin canary]

Maxed-out, it is incorrect to say that residents of the channel islands WITHOUT a rating would be offered a job over a non-resident with a rating. If there is no-one local who fits the bill then the housing authority in Guernsey - where all Aurigny (3) and half Blue Island (1) ATR are based - will give a first officer a 5 year residency license.

[maxed-out]

tin canary

Sincere apologies if you think I made an incorrect statement regarding the housing problem. I have it on good authority from someone extremely trustworthy that this is not so!

Secondly if you read my post I said residents don't need an ATR rating to apply and have their details held on file. This was confirmded to me in writing, by said trustworthy person and the following extract: note the text in bold.

From Co. Website:

Aurigny employs ATR42/72 pilots based in Guernsey and Trislander pilots based in Alderney, Guernsey and Jersey.

Aurigny does not currently run any pilot training schemes and therefore applicants must hold at least a valid CAA or JAA ATPL (Turboprop Captain), 'Frozen' ATPL (Turboprop First Officer) or CPL (Trislander) as appropriate with a valid Instrument Rating and Class 1 Medical. Additionally, they must meet the following criteria:

Turboprop Captains - 2000 hrs including Command experience on type.
Turboprop First Officers - Type-rating on either ATR42/72

Trislander Captains - 2,000 hours total, 1,500 in-command with a proportion of multi-engine commercial flying and current MEP rating.

Please note that in the interests of efficiency applications that do not meet the above criteria will not be held on file or replied to other than locally resident applicants who anticipate gaining the appropriate qualifications.

Please see Pilot Hiring Webpage - which is located in the regular company website - look up 'About Us' and then 'Recruitment'. Then scroll down the page to the info listed regarding Pilots.

To me this reads thus: If you're local apply/express interest and we'll keep you on file. If not local, gamble and buy an ATR rating and then apply. I can assure you it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out who they prefer.

Perhaps if A and BI weren't so bloody cloak and dagger about their hiring policies and that of the housing rules we would all know where we stand. Oh I forgot.... only if you're local can you liase with them.

[saucy jack]

Tekor Bali, point taken about the use of internet on the move. I admire your persistence and hope that it will be rewarded.

As to maxed-out's points about age and language, I have not personally witnessed any tendency towards ageism in my company but I cannot vouch that it does not exist.

What I can say is that, the younger the co-pilots are who have joined us, the quicker they have tended to disappear to the big airlines as soon as they can, whereas more mature people tend to stick around. So in this respect perhaps advancing years can be shown to be a positive thing in an application.

On the language issue, well I think at the very least you have to demonstrate a willingness to learn the basics of the "home" language of the company you aspire to join, and rightfully so in my opinion. You may not need it in the cockpit in order to fly but it will make the whole experience more fulfilling I guarantee, as well as being a useful footnote to your CV. Even just a few badly pronounced words will go a long way towards breaking the ice with new colleagues, especially if you are english because we have such a dreadful reputation abroad for our language skills!

[N739FC]

previously offered a Type rating for 17k euro at previously mentioned Irish airline on the basis of being offered full time job upon sucessful completion. Been on line 3 months now with just shy of 300hrs. My sim partner was initally promised a 6 month contract but was changed to permanent also.
Actually there is a bit of an exodus at the moment so wouldn't be suprised if they take on a few F.o. shortly!

[tin canary]

Maxed-out... Your source is not correct - Aurigny and Blue Island must advertise locally to see if there are any local pilots. If not then the company applies to housing and historically an FO will get a 5 year housing licence.

With regard to a local getting his/her name on file - that may be true, but without a rating they won't get any further than that 'cos neither company pay for ATR ratings.

So, to summarise, anyone wanting a job needs a rating, local or not.

It is NOT a case of who they prefer - if there is a suitable local with a rating, housing will not issue a licence for a non-local.

[usualguy]

I have a 320 rating, plenty of hours on small planes, and I got lucky, 0 offer in 4 years. so where are the jobs where they say just get a type rating, and you have the job...in your dream.
at least I don't have to work for free or pay to work now.When I say I have no money, strange things happen, suddenly no offers!everybody disapear, helloooo???
try to write on you CV: I don't pay to work or don't call me to pay for line training,and see!

the only thing that bug me is to renew this stupid 320 rating every year.after 6 years, your rating not worth more than toilet paper.so be carefull with aerarann, farnair, and others selling your ATR ratings.4 guys in a sim and we select one only...or go to pay for 500h.

If I have to do it again, I would stay with my piston engines and my PPL and send to hell commercial aviation forever because I am not happy to be in this zoo with monkeys loo long.100'000 euro gone. And everyday, I don't see things improving.Tomorrow it' s going to be the same **** day and no flying job in view.

good luck to the one who want stay in the animal reign by believing cinderella stories.