L-1011 crew

[rbaiapinto]

Hi,

I was looking at the composition of flight deck crew and noted that there are 3 elements in the crew.

The 3rd element is a Second Officer or a Flight Engineer?

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

The Transport Canada Type Certificate Data Sheet (http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/nico-celn/c_d.aspx?lang=eng&aprv_num=A-127&ISU_NUM=14&START_DATE=2000-06-08&AUTH_DESC=&DESC=&FRGN_NUM=&aprv_type=TA&PARTS_NUM=&id_num=1120) for the L-1011 states that the Minimum Crew is
Pilot, Co-pilot, and Flight Engineer
(Page 11 of 16)

I imagine in this regard it simply copies the FAA TCDS.

[FE Hoppy]

The "3rd element" was of course the co-pilot!

:-)

[grounded27]

I shall now refer to flight crew as element 1,2 and sometimes 3...

[rbaiapinto]

Ok! Thanks for the info!

So probably, this air plane having FE when other competition (Boeing and Airbus) didn't have, made very difficult to achieve the selling objectives?

Could be a reason for such a good plane has been discontinued alongside with the rest of civilian frames?

Pardon my English, sometimes it's not perfect, but I'm sure you can understand!
Probably element in my native language it's not quite the same as it is in English!

[hetfield]

So probably, this air plane having FE when other competition (Boeing and Airbus) didn't have, made very difficult to achieve the selling objectives?In the era of 1011 many commercial airliners were operated with a flight engineer e.g. 747, DC10 707, 727 Airbus 300 etc.etc., but yes the "3rd element" became subject to cost cutting.

[spannersatcx]

B747 had/has an FE as did the original A300 I believe.

[Wodrick]

A300B4 had F/E although a rudimentary panel so could easily be P3 ;)

[tristar 500]

In British Airways the normal operating crew within Europe was three pilots.

I wasn`t until we started operating further a field that the third pilot was surplanted by a flight engineer.

[rbaiapinto]

:confused:

Now I'm confused.
I'm really not familiarised with the P3 term.
Assuming that a P3 is another pilot, then the 3rd (what term should I use instead of element?) member? is in fact a second officer then?

Tristar, you say that at a certain point the pilot was replaced by a FE? Is that it?
What were the reasons for this replacement?
And in Europe there were 3 on board and outside wasn't?? Why?

[Sygyzy]

Back in the days...before the merger into British Airways there was BEA and BOAC-those were the days. In BEA most larger a/c were 3 crew. The Trident fleets, Vanguard, possibly another but not the Viscount nor 1-11. They required a 'panel operator' and this was one of the two Co-pilots, trained pretty much as a Flight Engineer. Usually this was leg and leg about. So...man in RHS=P2, man at panel=P3. Next leg they traded places.

BOAC always had a F/E. On 707's, VC10, the Classic 747 and Tristar (L1011). (Also Concorde). (Bye the bye BOAC had a Nav/P3 to play musical chairs with the man in the RHS. Most co-pilots were fully qualified with a Navigator's licence too-another story).

When BOAC/BEA became BA in '74 there was an anomaly where longhaul Tristar's crew complement would be BOAC driven with a F/E whilst those still operating under the BEA/shorthaul aegis would have a three pilot crew. Hence the possible confusion alluded to in the above post(s).

About this time the charter offshoot called British Airtours took on the older Rolls engined ex-BOAC 707-436 and then flew them with three pilots, one being the panel operator, rather than with the F/E that flew in the same seat when the a/c were in BOAC colours. BA Overseas Division, or Long Haul (depending whether there was an R in the month IIRC) continued to fly the PW707-336 worldwide with a dedicated F/E at the (known as) Flight Engineer's panel.

I believe US operators have usually/always gone down the 3 pilot/panel operator route whilst UK had an F/E. This (as someone else has mentioned) was at a time when all longhaul a/c had F/E's. The L1011 didn't sell as well as (say) DC10 as it simply didn't have the legs, until they made it into the -500 and tweaked all manner of other things. Nothing to do with 3 crew. (Probably other reasons too but hey - don't shoot the messenger here).


Phew...got all that. If you're doing multi-choice the answer is (b.

[hetfield]

Back in the days...before the merger into British Airways there was BEA and BOACThat's all about BA.

Who cares?

Interesting question is about the qualification of the "3rd element" which was/is dealed in different manners...

[rbaiapinto]

Nice!!:ok:

Ok, I will select b) :E

Just to know what would be my role in the cockpit!:cool:

[aterpster]

B747 had/has an FE as did the original A300 I believe.

Original 747-100/200 and SP had F/E. Starting with first 747-400 no F/E and coversion to glass instruments and far more capable FMS/nav.

[Brit312]

About this time the charter offshoot called British Airtours took on the older Rolls engined ex-BOAC 707-436 and then flew them with three pilots, one being the panel operator[

Basically correct but unlike say the trident where the two co-pilots could play musical chairs On the B707 being an American built aircraft the minimum crew was 2 pilots and a F/E and this meant that one of the pilots had to obtain a F/E licence to sit in the 3rd seat.

I believe US operators have usually/always gone down the 3 pilot/panel operator route whilst UK had an F/E. This (as someone else has mentioned) was at a time when all longhaul a/c had F/E's

In the USA all multi engine aircraft above a certain weight operated by a USA airline were obliged to carry a person with a F/E licence. When with the advent of jet airliners the american pilots union got rid of the dedicated F/E and replaced him with a pilot it meant that the replacement pilot had to obtain a F/E licence.
This applied to all aircraft built up to about the late 1970s when the ruling was changed. Now during that same period British built large aircraft minimum crew was 3 pilots or 2 pilots and a F/E

[glhcarl]

BOAC always had a F/E. On 707's, VC10, the Classic 747 and Tristar (L1011).

BOAC was gone before the first TriStar was delivered! They were merged with BA in March 1974. BA didn't recieved their first L-1011 until November 1974.

[Brit312]

BOAC was gone before the first TriStar was delivered! They were merged with BA in March 1974. BA didn't recieved their first L-1011 until November 1974.

You are quite correct but in fact the airline still operated internally as Overseas Division [ BOAC] and European Division [ BEA] for many years and so when the Tristar [ ordered by BEA for European routes ] started to operate outside of the old BEA area of the world, the aircarft became an Overseas division aircraft and so should be crewed as an Overseas aircraft with a F/E.

I think it was in 1982 that the unions and management agreed that all 3 man crew aircraft within British Airways would be crewed with 2 pilots and a F/E rather than with 3 pilots. Not much of an achievement for the F/E as British Airways never from then bought a fleet of aircraft with a 3 man crew.

[rbaiapinto]

So one thing is for sure: to ride the 3rd seat one needs a FE rating!

Or am I wrong?

[aterpster]

The L-1011 requires a certificated flight engineer with a turbojet rating and, I believe, a L-1011 rating.

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: CP 389
Posts: 25


So one thing is for sure: to ride the 3rd seat one needs a FE rating!

Or am I wrong?

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: CP 389
Posts: 25


So one thing is for sure: to ride the 3rd seat one needs a FE rating!

Or am I wrong?

[thermostat]

By far the best airplane I ever flew. Way ahead of it's time.
My understanding is that the RR RB.211 engine did not live up to it'e specifications. It used more fuel and required earlier overhauls than the sales people said it would. This translated into higher operating costs for the airlines.
Too bad, for it was such a beautiful bird. With the DLC (direct lift control) the approach and landing were so easy.
Unfortunately Lockheed got rid of the moulds and refused to allow other manufacturers to copy the DLC system.
As for the SO vs FE question, the SO was a pilot (P3) and the FE was a mechanic (no pilot licence). Different airlines used one or the other.
I didn't know the L1011 was still being used by airlines, thought they were all gone to bed.

[aterpster]

thermostat:


As for the SO vs FE question, the SO was a pilot (P3) and the FE was a mechanic (no pilot licence). Different airlines used one or the other.
I didn't know the L1011 was still being used by airlines, thought they were all gone to bed.

Whether the F/E was also a pilot was a matter of union contracts and/or airline policy. There was no such thing in a L1011 as a second officer so far as the FAA was concerned.

At TWA mechanic F/Es were hired before 1960 or so. After 1963 (the next hiring cycle) everyone was hired to be a pilot, but many had to serve their time in the F/E seat, whether 707, 727, L1011, or early 747s. None of them were called SOs. The company trained them to be F/Es.

[glhcarl]

Too bad, for it was such a beautiful bird. With the DLC (direct lift control) the approach and landing were so easy.
Unfortunately Lockheed got rid of the moulds and refused to allow other manufacturers to copy the DLC system.


Anyone with an L-1011 Maintenance Manual has more than enough information to reverse engineer the L-1011 Direct Lift Control (DLC) system. However, without a flying stabilizer like the TriStar DLC is just going to function like it does on the TriStar.

[aterpster]

glhcarl:

Anyone with an L-1011 Maintenance Manual has more than enough information to reverse engineer the L-1011 Direct Lift Control (DLC) system. However, without a flying stabilizer like the TriStar DLC is just going to function like it does on the TriStar.

That does not quite make sense. Sounds like you are saying DLC without a flying stabilizer is going to function just like the TriStar with a flying stabilizer.

Or, am I reading it wrong?

I have a lot of time in the 1011 but I hardly had a maintenance or engineering level of knowledge. I sure did learn how to make the best use of DLC, though, when hand-flying an approach and landing (which we did a whole lot in those days.)

[thermostat]

Aterpster, thanks for the info. I also had FE's on the 1011. However on the B727 we had SO's in the back seat.

[aterpster]

thermostat:

I don't know what country you were operating in, but the 727 was the same as a L1011 in certification and FAA rules. The guy who sat sideways at that big, funny panel was required to have an appropriate F/E certificate. He did not have to have a pilot's certificate of any type whatsover.

Your company and/or union may have elected some additonal non-regulatory requirements for the F/E position. That often did happen. But, nonetheless, the FAA didn't recognize SO for that seat, other than perhaps on an ad hoc, local FAA basis.

I was captain on both types for a lot of time at TWA.

[glhcarl]

ateraster:

Or, am I reading it wrong?

You read it right.

But I wrote it wrong.

Should have read: without a flying stabilizer like the TriStar DLC is just "NOT" going to function like it does on the TriStar.

[dhardesthard]

I believe what is confusing a lot of people is the term used to describe the systems panel operator on L-1011(TriStar) 727,707,DC8 etc. The individual is not controlling (flying)the A/C. He/she is actually carrying out the function of a flight engineer. Some airlines(including mine) hire pilots and train them (and licence them) to operate the panel so to recognise this they call them pilot engineers (P/E) or third pilots(P3) or a second officer(S/O). Whether the crew member has a flying background or not he is performing the function of a flight engineer. So to sum it up.....S/O, P3 or third pilots are actually flight engineers, what they are called is academic. The individual is operating on a flight engineer's licence and not a pilot's licence.