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Jane-DoH
26th Aug 2011, 02:19
Cloak of Light Makes Drone Invisible (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/05/invisible-drone/)

This is a very fascinating piece of technology which entails using counter-luminescence to visibly make drones undetectable to the naked eye. There are other technological concepts underway to achieve these ends including this (http://today.duke.edu/2006/05/cloaking.html), and even this (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2007/06/shootthrough_in/).

Considering drones can be used for domestic spying, even large-scale surveillance (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/08/new-army-camera-promises-total-surveillance/), and there is data-mining work underway that can not just archive data such as text, audio, but make sense of and interpret visual images. When you consider that our government has increasingly less and less regards for Constitutionally-protected privacy-rights, this strikes me as extremely dangerous.

It's likely to be just one more method for the government to covertly spy on innocent people.

Discuss

Lyman
26th Aug 2011, 02:22
"Yehudi" lights? Were they invented by the violinist? Menuhin?

Counter weapon? Polarized RayBans. Simples.

HKPAX
26th Aug 2011, 03:20
An SEP is something we can't see, or don't see, or our brain doesn't let us see, because we think that it's somebody else's problem.... The brain just edits it out, it's like a blind spot. If you look at it directly you won't see it unless you know precisely what it is. Your only hope is to catch it by surprise out of the corner of your eye.

The technology involved in making something properly invisible is so mind-bogglingly complex that 999,999,999 times out of a billion it's simpler just to take the thing away and hide it....... The "Somebody Else's Problem field" is much simpler, more effective, and "can be run for over a hundred years on a 9Volt battery."

This is because it relies on people's natural predisposition not to see anything they don't want to, weren't expecting, or can't explain.

Buster Hyman
26th Aug 2011, 04:30
Discuss
Why?

:ugh:

Slasher
26th Aug 2011, 04:46
http://www.toonpool.com/user/997/files/1_invisible_airplane_pelosi_obam_410805.jpg

chuks
26th Aug 2011, 06:16
Jane, have you never been told that, 'We are all guilty!' Guess not, otherwise you wouldn't have this thing going about the way the government wants to spy on the innocent. There is no such thing because we are all guilty.

Relax, the government is there to help and protect us so that whatever they get up to is for our own good. If you are being spied upon, groped at a TSA checkpoint or even abducted... it is for your own good.

On the other hand, where do you suppose the money is coming from to pay for this vast spy apparatus some foresee? (I could tell you but then I would lose my government job and all the benefits attendant thereunto so that mum's the word. Take this for a joke, please!)

You have all made it very easy for us, sorry, 'them' to track you and read your mind. That stuff at the bottom of your last skinny latte? Not grounds, mini-microchips! Starbucks is a CIA shadow operation! The chips are activated by microwave energy from the Z-backscatter vans and more recently by those things people think are for store security, the ones you walk past every time you go into Macy's or Saks.

We... no, they can generate a profile of your activity across a whole day. Usually, what happens is that our target is just sloping along a busy street such as 5th Avenue between 46th and 47th, not a care in the world, and then the sliding door opens on the white van, two burly guys in black jumpsuits pop out, grab the target and the next thing you know they wake up to the sound of the wind sighing through the palms down in sunny Cuba! It's New York and nobody wants to get involved so that this simple technique works like a charm; in a city of 13 million, one or two individuals usually go un-missed.

MagnusP
26th Aug 2011, 07:50
chuks, I think you've nailed it regarding the coffee. Recent developments in nanogrounds allow monitoring of the milk type in the latte; full fat, and your health insurance soars. SUGAR? You're in some trouble, boy!

Captivep
26th Aug 2011, 09:53
How can you "visibly make drones undetectable to the naked eye" ? It's visible or undetectable - can't be both, I wouldn't have thought...

Even if it's true, does anyone seriously think the US government is doing it to spy on its own citizens, just before they send in the UN black helicopters, prior to the NWO taking over?

Silly me, of course some people believe that!

hellsbrink
26th Aug 2011, 15:41
Why?

Because it's a vain and desperate attempt to find someone that agrees with her?

Storminnorm
26th Aug 2011, 15:46
Personally I couldn't care less who is spying on me.
I've got nothing to hide from them, and they would
probably die from terminal boredom.
Nice to know that someone cares though.

tony draper
26th Aug 2011, 16:12
Sat in many a CCTV control room operating the cameras Mr Norm and you are quite correct, spying on people just going about their business is very very boring,takes a special kind of person to be a good CCTV controller.
:)

G-CPTN
26th Aug 2011, 16:16
Apparently the Metropolitan Police are to scan through 20,000 to 40,000 hours of CCTV coverage of the 'London Riots' . . .

vulcanised
26th Aug 2011, 16:51
Following which, Channel5 will use the footage to make a series..........

hellsbrink
26th Aug 2011, 18:49
And it'll be on TV here in 4 years......

Worrals in the wilds
26th Aug 2011, 21:45
That stuff at the bottom of your last skinny latte? Not grounds, mini-microchips!That explains the taste. :}
Sat in many a CCTV control room operating the cameras Mr Norm and you are quite correct, spying on people just going about their business is very very boring...I'll second that :zzz:. Funny how on swanky LEA TV shows the cops always find what they're looking for within the first three minutes. None of that boring 'sifting through a week's worth of shaky, fuzzy footage except for the day when some tosser parked a truck in front of the camera which was the day when the Event actually happened...' stuff for CSI...

You have all made it very easy for us, sorry, 'them' to track you and read your mind.
Having spent far too long dealing with bulk numbers of humans I'm convinced that you could track the majority of people simply by following the trail of drool. Not us of course...we're the cool people. :cool::}

Jane-DoH
27th Aug 2011, 02:13
hellsbrink

That's actually not the reason. I feel this warrants a meaningful discussion

rh200
27th Aug 2011, 03:04
Hi Jane, on a bit of a roll today, wern't up to anything interesting on a Friday evening:(

They can't large scale deploy, normal drones, if they could I would love them. Hell suburbia might actually be peaceful for a change, though most likely not as they would need the man power to deal with all the crap they would see.:{

Lass of lot of this is good stuff, an example of one incident that comes to mind. A month or so ago a little lass had a fake collar bomb placed around her neck, didn't know it was fake at the time. Complete horror at the crime from most of the population, classic case of MWWS if ever (and yes I get it bad).

Anyway the coppers within a few weeks had tracked the creep down (in yank land of all places). They did this by collating all the information they could find from emails records CCT's and flight records. Job well done, this stuff is here to help us, as long as we are aware it can be abused we can control it. There's no need to bite off the face just to spite the nose.

ehwatezedoing
27th Aug 2011, 03:18
In meanwhile, cloak of smell makes fart inconspicuous.

Or diluted!





Discus...ting :}

Lyman
27th Aug 2011, 04:14
chuks. "we are all Guilty"? Nah. McCain accused me of being Joe the Plumber once, we knew he was kidding.

hellsbrink
27th Aug 2011, 04:27
That's actually not the reason. I feel this warrants a meaningful discussion

No, it doesn't. And it didn't last year when they talked about "invisibility cloaks" or any other time they talked about these things.

Cacophonix
27th Aug 2011, 04:51
No, it doesn't. And it didn't last year when they talked about "invisibility cloaks" or any other time they talked about these things.

Really?

See metamaterials and the progress that has been made at more than just nano scales.

Cloaking and Invisibility: Fact and Fiction (http://people.ee.duke.edu/~drsmith/cloaking.html)

FOCUS ON CLOAKING AND TRANSFORMATION OPTICS (http://iopscience.iop.org/1367-2630/10/11/115019)

Metamaterial cloaking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamaterial_cloaking)

On November 6, 2006, the Duke University research and development team was selected as part of the Scientific American best 50 articles of 2006.[48]

In the month of November 2009, "research into designing and building unique 'metamaterials' has received a £4.9 million funding boost. Metamaterials can be used for invisibility 'cloaking' devices, sensitive security sensors that can detect tiny quantities of dangerous substances, and flat lenses that can be used to image tiny objects much smaller than the wavelength of light."[49]
In November 2010, scientists at the University of St Andrews in Scotland reported the creation of a flexible cloaking material they call "Metaflex", which may bring industrial applications significantly closer.


Caco

hellsbrink
27th Aug 2011, 05:00
Sorry, Caco, the "cloak" is an interesting concept and, of course, does warrant discussion.

Jane's rantings about how the US Gov are going to send out squadrons of cloaked UAV's to spy on every single person in the US, however, is the part that does not warrant a discussion. And it didn't at any time in the past either.

Cacophonix
27th Aug 2011, 05:12
the "cloak" is an interesting concept


Absolutely.

In essence these materials effect multiple frequencies of electro magentic radiation (e.g. to "cloak" stealth aircraft) and one suspects it is only a matter of time before they are used militarily and commercially at optical frequencies. Absolutely fascinating and far more interesting than conspiracy theories. ;)

Caco

hellsbrink
27th Aug 2011, 05:23
Absolutely fascinating and far more interesting than conspiracy theories.

Exactly.

Except the chances of an interesting discussion have gone south due to rantings regarding the US Government spying on 307 million people and concepts which are so far removed from reality that they do not warrant the tag "Tinfoil Helmet Conspiracy" but have gone straight to "Tinfoil Burkha".

Let's face it. As soon as we try to talk sensibly regarding the possibilities of "cloaking" she's going to add the cloaked drones in this thread to the drones she is droning on about in the US Politics thread and claim that the US Gov have used cloaked "killah" drones to suppress and summarily execute anyone who disagrees with said Gov and have been secretly tested during the US invasion of Libya where they have been used by Gaddafi troops to "execute non-mainstream journalists" by order of the US Gov.......

Cacophonix
27th Aug 2011, 05:44
cloaked "killah" drones to suppress and summarily execute anyone who disagrees


JaneDOH must be thinking of the T1000 nanomorph mimetic poly-alloy (liquid metal) assassin. Nasty piece of work.


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And invisible as well it seems.... ;)


Caco

con-pilot
27th Aug 2011, 17:12
And invisible as well it seems....

No it's not, I can see the litte red x. :p

arcniz
28th Aug 2011, 00:18
RH200 SAYS:

this stuff is here to help us, as long as we are aware it can be abused we can control it.

Regarding stealthy surveillance inside US borders (and perhaps more assertive activities) by employees, agents, contractors, etc of the US govt., it is not clear there is a competent WE that knows about these, in an oversight fashion, that also has the motivation and authority to intervene to limit excesses and punish activities that are improper or illegal.

The USA has a very uneven history in this regard. From the 1900's to the mid-1950's, quite a number and variety of individuals in government at various levels created and managed little empires of surveillance, blackmail, and extortion -- run for their own convenience and benefit while possibly also sometimes supporting public interests and purposes. In the 1960's, in the context of the Civil Rights movement and the push to enforce laws supporting the rights of individuals in US society regardless of race, gender, etc., many new rules and laws were put in place to constrain and hobble surveillance of private citizens inside US borders, except where criminal activity or intent could be demonstrated to a judge, to obtain permission in advance of more comprehensive monitoring.

With passing time and the very tangible threats implied by global terrorism, the pendulum has swung back in the direction of allowing more extensive surveillance of populations and individuals without showing cause in advance. This has plenty of potential to go out of control if not well supervised, and it is not clear who does the supervising. Generally the professional law enforcement (FBI, in particular) and security people in the US are top-quality, well-educated folks of level temperament who work hard and serve well. Recently, though, over several years there seems to have been some sharp increase in the number of persons employed by US government who are not visible in normal budget and policy discussions.

One has no direct knowledge of this, but sees references reported in ordinarily somewhat credible economic and fiscal press that suggest some 800,000 un-accounted-for new employees have joined the Federal payroll in the last decade. If true, that's a LOT of manpower! One sometimes wonders what they might be doing.

hellsbrink
28th Aug 2011, 04:49
Recently, though, over several years there seems to have been some sharp increase in the number of persons employed by US government who are not visible in normal budget and policy discussions.

One has no direct knowledge of this, but sees references reported in ordinarily somewhat credible economic and fiscal press that suggest some 800,000 un-accounted-for new employees have joined the Federal payroll in the last decade.

So because there MIGHT be some extra pen pushers out there (MIGHT being the operative word, as you also have to think about retirees being replaced) that means that they are involved in spying on the population? It will have nothing to do with enforcing EPA, crap about "Global Warming", increases in the number of people joining the armed forces, more people needed to print more money because of QE, veteran's affairs (there's a hell of a lot more "veterans" now, remember), etc, etc, etc? As you say, you have absolutely no knowledge of what these people are doing or what the actual figures are, so you think it's ok to add 2+2 and come up with 800,000?


And why is 800,000 a "hell of a lot of manpower"? That's less than half of the US Gov payroll, NOT including the USPS, and with the expansion of the Executive Departments (from Defense to Housing with everything else in between) the "800,000", a figure you cannot even say is factual, can easily be explained without jumping to the conclusion that they are all sitting in black vans watching invisible "killah" drones hovering over a backsplatter machine at your local shopping mall, ready to shoot anyone who says "Obama's a <expletive deleted>".

Mr Optimistic
28th Aug 2011, 10:03
Keep your money in your wallets on this one.

arcniz
29th Aug 2011, 06:18
Mr. or Ms. Hellsbrink:

Your vituperative response to my earlier comment suggests an agenda - as yet undisclosed - on your part.

The information about some 800K new additions "off-payroll" to the Fed budget is not controversial, one thinks. Various sources I checked - in the span of a few minutes, describe recent increments to the US Federal budgets for Black operations of some 25 billion$US to $40 billion$US, on top of the assumed baseline for 2008 of some $30 to $40 billion$US.

Here's one moderately credible source, found in a minute or two of search. The others to which one referred appeared in similarly substantial publications:

NYT - Black Programs (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/01/science/01patc.html)

One could provide quite a few sources that independently offer similar estimates, of a US Black-budget increase of some $30 billion (NOT ENOUGH $$ FOR 800k peeps, with overhead and toys) since 2008, but one suspects strongly- from the tone of your comments- that you are more interested in bluster than evidence or facts.

Personally I don't take issue with a certain amount of secret work -- have been much closer to that in earlier times -- but the underlying problem is that criminality is endemic to the human character, so programs that have vast power and resources with little or no adult supervision can quickly spin into theft, crime, tyranny, and worse. Ten thousand years of human endeavor toward stable civil societies have shown that unsupervised activities tend to go bottoms-up at every turn, in every culture and slice of humanity from serfs to saints, so why would we be so naive as to not expect similar now?

Governments tend to not be accountable. The people within them steal and lie until the process is no longer sustainable, and then they hide or run. The US has sought to alter this venereal cycle of indigenous social malaise by promoting visibility and accountability in politics and government, but the expanding creep of off-the-books "Black" programs very possibly puts the lie to that. Not a healthy trend, methinks.

hellsbrink
29th Aug 2011, 15:49
So your "credible" source is a report about a BOOK that someone has written?

So, let's go back to what you said earlier. The "800,000" is NOT a verified amount of "new" people and you still have absolutely no idea if they exist and whether they are being in programmes where drones with Klingon cloaking devices are being used to spy on every US citizen.

In other words, you ain't got JACK apart from some hypothetical musings from a guy who has written a book based on the "unusual" patches he has seen.

Jane-DoH
30th Aug 2011, 01:41
Cacophonix

Metamaterials can be used for invisibility 'cloaking' devices, sensitive security sensors that can detect tiny quantities of dangerous substances, and flat lenses that can be used to image tiny objects much smaller than the wavelength of light.

How do you image something smaller than a wavelength of light without using something like an electron microscope or an atomic force microscope?


chuks

There is no such thing because we are all guilty.

Under that attitude the requirements for probable-cause would be so lax that it would defeat the 4th Amendment and remove any limit the government has from intruding into everybody's lives.

where do you suppose the money is coming from to pay for this vast spy apparatus some foresee?

Our taxpayer dollars, and being that we are required to pay our taxes, means that we are effectively being forced to finance the government's surveillance of all of us.


arcniz

Regarding stealthy surveillance inside US borders (and perhaps more assertive activities) by employees, agents, contractors, etc of the US govt., it is not clear there is a competent WE that knows about these, in an oversight fashion, that also has the motivation and authority to intervene to limit excesses and punish activities that are improper or illegal.

That's because there isn't, and therein lies the problem

the underlying problem is that criminality is endemic to the human character, so programs that have vast power and resources with little or no adult supervision can quickly spin into theft, crime, tyranny, and worse. Ten thousand years of human endeavor toward stable civil societies have shown that unsupervised activities tend to go bottoms-up at every turn, in every culture and slice of humanity from serfs to saints, so why would we be so naive as to not expect similar now?

Governments tend to not be accountable. The people within them steal and lie until the process is no longer sustainable, and then they hide or run.

Despite the fact that none of this is really new, people never seem to learn.

Rollingthunder
30th Aug 2011, 04:01
Population of NYC - 8,143,197 (pedant mode off) plus the undocumented illegal aliens.

Cacophonix
30th Aug 2011, 05:54
How do you image something smaller than a wavelength of light without using something like an electron microscope or an atomic force microscope?



You ask an interesting question Jane.

As I understand it metamaterials have a structure that is smaller than the wavelength of light. They also have a negative refractive index (see Snell’s law) and if fabricated/arranged in a certain way can “see” objects smaller than the wavelength of light. Mind boggling stuff!

Dr Smith of Duke University makes it all sound a little simpler.

See: David R. Smith's Metamaterials Site: About Metamaterials (http://people.ee.duke.edu/~drsmith/about_metamaterials.html)


The size and typical spacing of atoms within a material are on the order of angstroms, or tenths of one nanometer. That means that visible light waves, which are hundreds of nanometers in size, or longer wavelength waves cannot even come close to resolving the atomic structure. Although we know materials are formed from collections of atoms, we cannot see the individual atoms because the light we perceive is so much larger than the atomic scale. So, we are able to approximate the discrete atoms and molecules of a material as a continuous substance, whose properties derive not only from the individual atoms and molecules, but also their interactions.

We can easily come up with examples of optical devices, based on our experience with visible light. The lenses in telescopes, microscopes or eye glasses, for example, are simply pieces of plastic or glass that take rays of light and cause them to converge or diverge. The properties of a lens are related to the material of which it is made, as well as its shape. Optical fibers and waveguides represent other classes of optical devices, in which the material is used to guide light from one point to another, like water passing through a pipe. Optical fibers are formed by 'pulling' carefully designed and optimized combinations of glasses, and are used to transmit light over surprisingly large distances.

The quality and diversity of optical devices is, at least in part, determined by the available range of electromagnetic properties of the materials used to make the devices. There are interesting opportunities here, because existing materials display only a subset of the electromagnetic properties that are theoretically available. Since we know that, ultimately, materials consist of atoms and molecules, it would seem reasonable to try to expand the available range of material properties by adjusting the composition of materials at the molecular level using chemistry. But there is another way: We can broaden our definition of a material. In effect, we can "fool" light by taking any arrangement of objects and assembling them into some sort of structure. If the size and spacing of the objects are much smaller than the wavelength of light, then the light will not be able to resolve the difference between our collection of objects and an actual material. What is the advantage? As it turns out, material properties obtained by engineering the geometry of macroscopic objects can extend well beyond what is obtainable by chemical synthesis. Consequently, a structured material is now often referred to as a metamaterial, since its electromagnetic properties are often beyond those of any known naturally occurring materials.

Caco

OFSO
30th Aug 2011, 10:05
It is not WHAT you do but HOW you do it. Someone in my family whom I can't cite but once upon a time used to work somewhere I can't mention, said that in her day surveillance and checking, expecially the latter, was all done by hand, so to speak. She has often told me of how trained staff with a gift could see connections (checking aliases, alibis, family connections, history, skills and abilities, affiliations) which machines overlooked.

With the passing of time and the need to save money on wages, there has been a change to allowing computers, more precisely software, to take over a lot of this work. I'm sure there are chaps on JB who could tell us how well this goes....

Now I'm reading that more human beings are recruited. Hmmm. Far more efficient, no doubt. Those of us who are not dodgy can sleep sounder at night. Or can we ?

Edit: back when I was At Work I remember seeing how male colleagues and female colleagues handled a printout dump looking for a software fault. The man started at the beginning of the stack and started to check it line for line. The woman would open the stack seemingly at random, skip from page to page, forward and back, and then shout "there it is !" I saw this several times and realised why the fair sex make excellent analysts. Intuition. Tuition "built in" and not "taught".

Ancient Observer
30th Aug 2011, 10:27
Some Prof who did his best to teach me many years ago did go on about that pattern recognition stuff, OFSO.
I seem to remember he said something about normal patterns and abnormal patterns, but he pointed out that they did actually use statistics to check those intuitive leaps.
Apparently some intuitions were better than others.
He then switched from talking about spying during WW2 to talking about the correct depth to set for depth charges. I was awake for that bit, but then he explained the Maths behind it,so I went back to my usual student pose.

Jane-DoH
30th Aug 2011, 21:09
Cacophonix

So, basically it works via the interactions between the metamaterials and the object being viewed? This sounds similar to the concept behind an atomic force microscope though I could be wrong.

Look at this: DARPA Goal: Shoot-Through, Invisible, Self-Healing Shields (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2007/06/shootthrough_in/)

OFSO

Yes, but there have been considerable leaps in the A.I. fields and I think in 5-10 years we'll have computers that can outperform us completely. Of course, when that happens, the end will be near.

OFSO
31st Aug 2011, 10:00
in 5-10 years we'll have computers that can outperform us completely

In some respects one of mine can ALREADY outperform me. The self-built PC XP is totally out of control. Trouble is, I didn't give my system a pre-defined personality but allowed it to go its own way. Something to remember next time.

Scalzi would understand.

Was talking to my family member who worked for (---), she gave some interesting examples of humans drawing conclusions from minimal or disparate data. I don't disagree that software can also do this, but it would come up with a larger number of nulls than humans do.

See "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", Heinlein.

Mr Grimsdale
5th Sep 2011, 12:02
Thermal spoofery...
BBC News - Tanks test infra-red invisibility cloak (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14788009)

Jane-DoH
5th Sep 2011, 13:04
Mr Grimsdale

Thermal spoofery...
BBC News - Tanks test infra-red invisibility cloak (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14788009)

And when you consider that as arcniz pointed out, there isn't really a competent "WE" that knows about any of these stealthy domestic surveillance activities in a meaningful oversight capacity (i.e. the knowledge, power, and willingness to reign in such abuses).

MagnusP
5th Sep 2011, 13:45
I must admit I'm really somewhat surprised that they're using invisible tanks to perform "these stealthy domestic surveillance activities". I thought you'd have heard the rumbling as they came along the street. Oh well, we live and learn.

11Fan
5th Sep 2011, 15:11
Magnus,

I thought you'd have heard the rumbling as they came along the street. Oh well, we live and learn.

That rumbling you heard was a cow ;);)

From the article:

It can also make a tank look like other objects, such as a cow or car, when seen through heat-sensitive 'scopes.

Apparently, it only works if you are looking through Forward Looking Infrared Radar. So, make everyone wear FLIR glasses and then the tanks can roam about freely and we'll just presume some dairyman left his gate open.

RegDep
6th Sep 2011, 07:48
It's likely to be just one more method for the government to covertly spy on innocent people.

Discuss

My late-coming addition to the discussion. Likely not worth even one cent.

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g472/RegDep/Bildschirmfoto2011-09-06um071214.png