Katherine Aviation. A sinking ship?

[beat ups are fun]

Can anyone shed any light on the situation with Katherine Aviation? I heard from a pilot who left there recently that the company is on shaky ground due to them not being able to retain single/multi engine pilots.

I used to work there many moons ago and made some great friends and made a very small amount of money!

[MadMadMike]

Don't know anything about Katherine Aviation but I do know they will wake up to a few hundred CV's tomorrow morning :eek:

[Azzure]

I had a friend fly from Sydney for an interview at this lot (after they called him), did not even bother to call him back letting him know he was unsuccessful, when he called back the next day after the interview regarding the check flight that was being organised for him, the office girl kindly informed him that they had already hired someone else. :yuk:

[beat ups are fun]

Don't know anything about Katherine Aviation but I do know they will wake up to a few hundred CV's tomorrow morning

I think they would be disappointed. They pay $0.35/Nm for single drivers. I'd go out on a limb and say the worst paying GA operator in the NT. That's why I left.

[Rossy]

Seriously, that's the rate of pay?? lol

[PCFlyer]

They pay $0.35/Nm for single drivers.

Ah centre, request traffic for diversions up to 100nm left and right of track. :E

[xquuizzit]

Is that really the pay?
How many nm are you flying on an average day?

[beat ups are fun]

How many nm are you flying on an average day?

Well the YPTN to YDEA run is 244Nm so $85. It's one of these "contracting" arrangements. No allowances, no pay for being on standby/preflight/postflight, no annual leave. Just a joke!!! :ugh:

One of the lads (who shall remain nameless) has emailed me a copy of the new "work agreement" which he says is the reason for the last mass exodus. I haven't read the whole thing yet but page one was rather interesting!

You accept full responsibility when in possession or whilst using any company equipment of items and the loss or damage will be recovered

:mad: Hope you don't prang a plane boys! KB will be sending you the bill :}

[jas24zzk]

Crikey!!
now, if i could get my apprentice onto an agreement like that, i would make a fortune!

[Flying Bear]

Does that qualify as technical slavery? I hope there's more dignity in the GA world than this.

[kalavo]

Mean while Chartair are giving guys with 350 multi $65k...

...interesting times ahead, definitely a shortage of experienced drivers.

[YPJT]

I hope there's more dignity in the GA world than this. I suspect not. The absolute ruthlessness of this game both by operators and pilots will ensure that it continues. Why would an operator offer to pay a reasonable (read liveable) wage when a spotty faced CPL with brand new gold bars and a flight bag turns up and offers to do everything from washing the bosses car to sweeping the hangar floor and pay for the priviledge?
Ironically, a lot of the people who come on here complaining of conditions are the very ones who have helped perpetuate the problem.:ugh:

[Tinstaafl]

Hmmm.... 65K for 350hrs multi from Chartair. Wonder what they'd pay for 10x that multi, endorsed on all their types & have worked in the NT before...?

[mrclumsy]

28th Aug 2011, 06:01 * #15 (permalink)
Tinstaafl
*
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Escapee from Ultima Thule
Posts: 3,234
Hmmm.... 65K for 350hrs multi from Chartair. Wonder what they'd pay for 10x that multi, endorsed on all their types & have worked in the NT before...?
*
Y don't you ring and ask ??

[beat ups are fun]

What does the rest of it say or is it just one page?

It's about 20 pages of utter :mad: My jaw dropped about 50 times while reading it. Only an idiot would sign up to it. I'm not going to put the whole thing up on here but I'll give you the important points.

*Rate of pay $19/hr
*6 months probation (can be terminated for any reason)
*Bonded for 6 months on your initial C210 training
*Bonding on endorsments/ratings:- Leave within 3 months 100%, 3-6 months *75%, 6-9 months 50%, 9-12 months 25%
*Pay is averaged at 20 hours/week.
*Waiting time at another company base in unpaid. (when not flying the aircraft you are classed as "free of employment" 15 mins after engine shutdown)
*Annual leave must not be taken during the "busy period"
*Annual leave MUST be taken during Easter and Christmas
*Pilots rostered on standby must be available 6am -6pm (standby is unpaid)
*Pilots may not have a second job

The list goes on.

Bottom line is $19,760 base pay, this is worst case, but still :ugh: I know I wouldn't have been able to live on that kind of money in a remote community.

YPJT, you are 100% correct. This operator is well known for not paying the award. They have been doing it for years and ripping off young/inexperienced pilots who don't know better. I for one have looked into claiming back pay from KA, only to find that I didn't have enough paperwork to allow FWA to build a case.

I can now understand why people are leaving left, right and center, and hats off to them.

[Mr.Buzzy]

When your neighbor quotes the scriptures.......Brand your calves early!!!!

Bbbbbbbbzbzbzbzbzbzzzzzzzzzzzz

[huntsman]

beat ups are fun = how many people have died doing just that

most (but not all) low time pilots are near useless to any operator without further training and usually are not willing to pay for their mistakes

why would any operator take one on?


i don't condone low pay at all - but it's a two way street.
in my opinion, too many mommies boys/girls are around.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Could be Ausflyer:ok:

Bbbzzbbz

[Toodogs]

Bloody hilarious.

The owner of this outfit has been a staunch unionist - unwilling to budge on certified agreement negotiations at his previous employment, allowing them to flounder for years.......and yet.....

Now he appears to be paying people rubbish and requiring them to sell themselves and their time for next to nothing.

Hypocrite is the word I'm thinking of.

PS: I am in the union and believe operators should pay the award, plus some.

[Lasiorhinus]

The award is the barest minimum an employer can pay you without running the risk of being sued.

It is not a statement of the market rate, it is not the maximum your staff are worth, and paying just the award is not something to be proud of.

Job ads that state "pay is award" are saying "the boss is a cheapskate who will pay pilots the barest minimum to make the paperwork look ok". What else do they do the barest legal minimum of? Maintenance? Customer service?

[FGD135]

The owner of this outfit has been a staunch unionist - unwilling to budge on certified agreement negotiations at his previous employment, allowing them to flounder for years.......and yet.....

Now he appears to be paying people rubbish and requiring them to sell themselves and their time for next to nothing.



Hear hear.


Bloody hilarious.

Hear hear!

[Pinky the pilot]

Just a suggestion; Rather than complain about the problem here, has anyone given any thought to referring it to 'the appropriate authorities?':confused:

[Lasiorhinus]

The Appropriate Authorities are only interested in hearing from someone who works, or has worked for the company in question, and who has enough paperwork to back up the claim for underpayment.

[Worrals in the wilds]

*Rate of pay $19/hrHoly fookin' guacamole that's low. Security guards do better than that for standing around drooling. This is for being in control of an aircraft???
The owner of this outfit has been a staunch unionist - unwilling to budge on certified agreement negotiations at his previous employment, allowing them to flounder for years.......and yet.....
Then there is obviously a smell of sulphur in the air and some scuffed out chalk pentagrams on the floor :suspect:... seriously those are dreadful conditions. I thought the entertainment industry screwed people over and spat them out but these are worse, particularly the 'no second job' clause. If you're 'free of employement' why is working a second job a problem? Why is it even their business? :confused:
Terry Pratchett, 'Maskerade':
'“The money in the chorus isn’t very good, is it?!” she said.
“No.” It was less than you’d get for scrubbing floors. The reason was that, when you advertised a dirty floor, hundreds of hopefuls didn’t turn up'.

If people are dumb enough to work for it, bastards will keep offering it. To quote my middle-aged spinster building manager; It Shouldn't Be Allowed.

[AnyGivenSunday99]

LEAVE.

There are enough jobs out there to move onto. Some Darwin based companies are even having candidates not show up to interviews. Unheard of. Chartair are willing to pay drivers $65k or something to fly a 402 in Alice. Supply and demand?

Operators that arnt willing to look after their people deserve them to leave quickly, the reputation will get around, and that will be the end of them.

For god's sake... grow a backbone.:mad:

[Donalduck]

"The Appropriate Authorities are only interested in hearing from someone who works, or has worked for the company in question, and who has enough paperwork to back up the claim for underpayment."

Which authority exactly are you referring too? I can tell you from recent experience with the "Fair Work Ombudsmen" that they are just playing "Window dressing" games... There is no "authority" that cares... Just the other day I spent over 4 hours chasing an industrial relations matter up with the ombudsmen (Under payment, breaking terms and conditions of agreement etc etc"... they seem to be geared towards making people go away... My comment to them... "I am not an IR expert... that is why I am asking you"... their responce... "???"...
Sadly most people seem to be unaware of this.

[harrop]

I worked for them for 3 years, and it's not as bad as most people here are making it out to be. Altough they did recently try to change the pay/conditions which was the reason for the latest exodus of pilots.

It's a good company to get in, do the hard work, get your hours up and move on. The chief pilot is easy to get along with, and he will stick up for the pilots - just make sure you know how to negotiate, stick to your standards, and dont accept anything less than the award.

If you keep at it, and you are what they are looking for, they will negotiate with you.

Good luck :ok:

[OzFlyGuy]

It is apparent from many comments in this thread that a proper understanding of wages and conditions is ominously missing for some people.
Similarly some people who think that working for a pittance with payments required for training is acceptable, yet those same people appear to be those who have been in the industry for a long time - old school!

For those interested, the award system is essentially a heirachical system.
For Pilots (generally) the following documents apply.

National Employment Standards (NES) - Fair Work Act 2009
The NES is what it's name implies, and applies to every employer and employee irrespective of industry. It sets a benchmark and conditions.

The NES also states that people above a nominal income (over $100k or thereabouts) are not required to comply with an award but may do so.

Miscellaneous Award 2010 (MA000104)
This award also applies to everyone and provides the mimimum conditions of employment, including minimum wage, lunch breaks etc.
Clauses in this award apply when no related clause exists in an industry specific award.
Newbie pilots are often paid at the basic rate of $18.06/hr as specified in the Level 3 classification - "... An employee at this level has a trade qualification or equivalent and is carrying out duties requiring such qualifications .."

Air Pilots Award 2010 (MA000046)
Specifically pilots -
4.1 This award covers employers throughout Australia of air pilots and those employees.
Note that there are more awards (more specific, mostly Airline related).

Finding what condition applies generally works from a least specific (top) to most specific (bottom) of the list. All awards/info can be found here Find an award | Fair Work Australia (http://www.fwa.gov.au/index.cfm?pagename=awardsfind)

[beat ups are fun]

I'm sure most people are familiar with the NES. The problem with $18.06 an hour is it's not enough for a pilot to live on in these remote places when they are only promised 25 hours a week. Maybe in major capital cities but not in a remote area The cost of living where KA's bases are is huge. Is it too much to ask for the pilots to be paid full time under the award? Every time that question has been raised in the past management has thrown their hands in the air as if to say "we can't afford the award"

[beat ups are fun]

I just got a telegram about a KA C210 going wheels up into Bickerton Island (near YGTE). Pilot is ok, not sure if there was passengers onboard.

Hopefully CASA will investigate this one and sort this circus out once and for all. :ok:

This could put the brakes on getting that new Kingair put on the AOC one might think. :E

[Mr.Buzzy]

Ahh yes. Do unto others as they should do unto you.......

Bbbbbbbzbzzzzzz

[cancel_speed]

woopsy.......i wonder if it was mechanical??

[cancel_speed]

Is it really sinking though?? i think not. with the word on the street of an addition of a turbo prop to the fleet me is thinking that skimping on pilots pay is proving to be extremely profitable.

While newby pilots are all willing to accept an a#%^ reeming to build hours, it will only continue.

[world traveler]

I feels its wrong that KA are telling pilots YOU are to pay for YOUR car to be barged to GV or GTE, so you can get to the airport each day. Surely they can buy the staff a cheap ute or similar? To barge your car costs thousands, not hundreds...

[Lasiorhinus]

Buy a small scooter or electric bicycle, disassemble, stick it in the back of the plane, re-assemble when you get to Groote. Much better than barging your car out there.

[MACH082]

Just roll your swag under the wing. Saves all the dramas, is much cheaper and your arse will stink so bad after a few days in the wet that those pineapples will be used less and less until you're left alone :D

In all seriousness though the company should be supplying wheels and accommodation.

If they are skimping on this, what else are they skimping on?

If the get into gas turbine ops they better get used to doing things properly. It's much cheaper in the long run.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Hang on a minute! The boss gives you a Moke doesn't he?
Your workmates can hitch to work right?

Bbbbbbbzbzbzbzbbzbzzzzzzzzz

[whichstrip]

What an awesome idea!!! I have got a scooter if anyone would like to try:p

[beat ups are fun]

Hang on a minute! The boss gives you a Moke doesn't he?

ummmmmmm NO. KA has no company cars.

The scooter is a great idea for the dry season however in the wet your going to look like a drowned rat before you arrive at the airport.

[caa]

Beat ups are fun - in an aircraft you don’t own I guess! I also guess you have some sour grapes??


I know of no company that pays per NM, so I guess you are trying to distort the truth?

Rumour is that the gear up was caused by the AUTO extension system not working in that 210, Well he was well and truly over paid and cost owners and operators $$$$$. Guess you don’t care about that!

Most places do make the pilot pay relocation costs but then get reimbursed after normally 6 months, again my guess this is the case.

The reason they have to use this type of tactic is to get some work out of you, because many many pilots before you promise to stay for 6 months or even a year. But once you have that 210 signed off, the first thing you do is send your CV to Hardy's!

As for supply of a company car in these places, maybe they may - if you look after them a little better than your subsidised accommodation that they pay for.
So Beat UPS why not say to KA while you were there that you were not getting the award, it is known by all in Australia that it is the LAW – You may have been paid more if you were a good worker??
Or they may have proved to you the fact that that is the correct rate of pay for someone still in early learning?
Sorry but if you don’t like a place leave you have the choice, you are a Pro Pilot that people put their lives in ACT like one!!

[Orion Delta]

All of the mud throwing on this forum is a joke :ugh:

[caa]

Maybe a time Beat Ups gets a life, You hate every part of Aviation but flying- Get a job as a doctor they use your cash to pay for your own aircraft and flying!!

Form beat ups- check his crying history, so hard done by little boy!!


"GA pilots need far more representation from AFAP. Allot of us have been there, done that in some two bit GA company who only cares about the bottom line. Underpaid pilots are unhappy pilots and this can lead to all sorts of issues for both the company (revolving door of pilots coming and going, more ICUS, non-revenue flights, etc.) and pilots (stress, how can I afford to pay rent AND eat this week)

Charter and scenic operators need to be publicly exposed for what they are doing and i think AFAP need to lead the way on the issue. The practice of not paying pilots allowances and even worse paying pilots as "Contractors" on an ABN is totally wrong, and I dare say illegal. I still can't believe the amount of companies in the NT that actually boast that they pay the award.

Talking to a few friends further up the food chain AFAP seams to do a good job negotiating EBA's. But union numbers in these type of airlines are a far greater percentage.

I would really like to see current AFAP members and union reps going to flying schools and signing up CPL students before they go looking for work. Before every instructor jumps on my back and says "but that will hurt our enrollments" yes it will BUT I for one am sick to death of flying schools lying to students, teaching them on these wizz bang G1000 C172's so they are "Airline ready". Reality is that this is not how the aviation industry works in Australia unless your enrolled in one of those Cadetships, which is an idea thought up by satin himself.

100% membership is what AFAP needs, everyone from students to A380 captains. With a high percentage of members in the industry AFAP will grow the teeth that it needs to support it's members, but unfortunately many people are waiting for the federation to grow teeth first and that won't be happening anytime soon."


-

[Squigy]

Rumor is that the gear up was caused by the AUTO extension system not working in that 210,

A KA aircraft involved in an accident due to a maintenance issue? Surely not??
Lets refresh the KA history

VH-ZAC - Engine Failure - crashed
VH-BKD - Engine Failure - crashed
VH-MJD - Engine Failure - crashed
VH-ETV - Landing Gear failure - Wheels up landing
And now VH-PBV - Landing Gear failure - Wheels up landing



Luckily no one has been hurt or killed yet!


Sorry but it seems that KA has some maintenance issues

with its fleet.
I wouldn’t be caught dead flying one of their machines and I feel sorry for the poor underpaid blokes who do!

[oi cant]

To clarify:

VH-ZAC was fuel starvation
VH-MJD was on a private flight when it went down

But don't forget:

VH-SBS - major undercarriage fault- landed safely
VH -TWO - major undercarriage fault- landed safely.
VH-??? C210 runway excursion at YGTE.

You might say that over the years that they have had a few issues in that company. I wouldn't work there.

[jsamuel79]

Having worked there myself, if you wanna get hours, the remote bases of borroloolla and groote will smash your hours. Conditions could be better, although I hear things are improving. I left for a place where I could get better personal development.

[cficare]

...will improve your 'people' skills as well...!

[cancel_speed]

Rumor is that AFAP are getting involved with this mob to straighten the joint out. A ex pilot has some docs to go them with.

[NTChicky]

AFAP is getting involved with this mob to straighten the joint out.

What do you mean? Like a union or something? Looking after its members? OMG, What a great principal for them to practice.

Just ask the owner of the company.

If you don't like it, leave, or stay and change the world on your own but as far as help goes, you would be well advised to hire a pay by the hour solicitor.

[huntsman]

doing some mental maths, if/when they are forced to pay 'backpay'', KA will likely close completely, or cut staff levels substantially.

i think what they've been doing stinks, but what's better?
ex-staff getting what you should have been paid, (BTW more than you'd agreed to work for), thus putting others out of a job. (those where you were 12+ months ago)


personally i think if you agreed to work for less, you're an idiot.
but most pilots will whore themselves for an upgrade/opportunity. :rolleyes:

[Hasselhof]

doing some mental maths, if/when they are forced to pay 'backpay'', KA will likely close completely, or cut staff levels substantially.

i think what they've been doing stinks, but what's better?
ex-staff getting what you should have been paid, (BTW more than you'd agreed to work for), thus putting others out of a job. (those where you were 12+ months ago)

Or this might be the example that makes another employer think twice before setting things up the wrong way and underpaying its employees from the beginning. Tough one.

As a side note, the KA pilots on GTE were making some pretty good money compared to the full time guys not that long ago, so if they are forced to compare what they should have earned through at GA award payments vs. what they took home then the pay out might not be as big as imagined. I take it that things have changed in the last 12 months or so.

Regardless, to see another sham contracting scheme or under GA award "agreement" go to the wall is a good thing in my book.

[oi cant]

Or this might be the example that makes another employer think twice before setting things up the wrong way and underpaying its employees from the beginning. Tough one.

Let's hope so Hof. But pigs are flying and pilots are being paid by the award now. Well done fellas, you've stuck to your guns and made things better for yourselves. Don't go losing that backbone you grew! :D

The next exciting episode has already begun. ....

Heard from a little birdy the Kingair recently acquired by KA was to be used on the Katherine Airmed contract now that AJ's commitments have finished. But CA have beaten them to the punch with 2 Conquests. I was told that the Kingair is close to a make or break for them. :eek:

[cancel_speed]

Wow, that is good news if you are correct. Good on the pilots who have stuck up for themselves and demanded the award. Hopefully things are on the improve in other areas as well e.g aeroplanes

[oi cant]

I can't see the aircraft quality getting any better while "piston broke engineering" are still doing the maintenance. But you never know, the ugly duckling did turn into a swan if you believe in fairy tails. :p