to move 13000 lbs 450 miles, what would you fly?

[wasCorsair]

Good Morning Everybody,
I'm doing a feasibility study for hauling 12 metric tonnes (26,000 lbs) to an airport 450 nm away every week and looking for the right airplane for the job.
What makes things a bit more difficult is that the destination is only 1500 meters long and dirt.... Anybody have any bright ideas?
It doesn't have to be one trip (could be 5 flights a week) or even one plane (cargo is food aid boxes so can be rearranged however), just the best way to do the job...in Africa.

Currently I've focused on
ATR72
Dash 8 (300 series)
Saab 340
Fairchild/ Fokker F227
Turbine DC3???

Does any have operational experience on these that could give me some good numbers for real performance. There's lots of "data" on the internet but a lot of it is obviously trash...

There's other nuances too, as I'm sure the vast majority of you understand such as operating inefficient airplanes that are cheap to buy verses new equipment, etc... It's an interesting question to ponder.

Cheers

[rigpiggy]

a few questions,

wrt the freight, does it have to go all at once, what are the dimensions

wrt the strip what is the density altitude, what infrastructure is there, approaches etc.....

how about the local regulatory authority, what would they require?

What is the anticipated budget?

PM if you want

[Snoop]

Q400:ok:

Wicked bit of kit.

Should do the job. Fast, good fuel burn. Believe there is a PF one floating around in Europe somewhere looking for work.

[Daysleeper]

For Africa it's got to be an Antonov something.

For 1 trip a week the -12
For 2 trips a week the -24 or -72/4

Just try not to look too closely at the aircraft, seriously you want the boxes moved no questions then it's better not to ask to many of your own...

Many will come complete with a crew of mad pirates who want paid in cash and loads of bits of tin that can be beaten into spares. May (probably will) crash at some point.

Anything else is a waste of time. Though if you want ME to fly it... I'll take the turbine (PT-6) DC-3

As for the Q400, seriously? Dirt strips in Africa. I'd give it one rotation then scrap.

[N707ZS]

What about a DHC-5 Caribou.

[Donkey497]

I'd still be thinking of a truck or a few Toyota pick-ups if you can split the load.
Much though I love flying, you have to ask for a relatively light & splittable load over a relatively short distance(*) - does it really need to be airborne?


(*) OK, I'll concede that 450 miles in food aid areas of Africa is more of a struggle than in paved highway rich Europe, but it's not like it's an unreasonable haulage distance, even there.

[lb1]

Twater..DHC6-300

[ross_M]

OK, I'll concede that 450 miles in food aid areas of Africa is more of a struggle than in paved highway rich Europe, but it's not like it's an unreasonable haulage distance, even there.

I'm guessing that by flying he also avoids some of the nasty boys that he'd meet on the road. That's often an extra African factor.

[boredcounter]

Herc? Would that do it in civie life?

[wasCorsair]

Hey guys,
I forgot to mention one important factor, no fuel at the other end so the plane needs to go round trip. Essentially the plane needs to takeoff with 1000 nm worth of fuel aboard.

As for the Turbine DC3 and the Caribou believe me I've looked at every possible way to work those numbers to make it look feasible because I'd love to get my hands on either one of them! Not too many Caribous around and I'm afraid they're all pretty long in the tooth.... The DC3 just doesn't have the legs for it. It was my first thought and I have some friends in Kenya who operate one but she just can't go the distance with payload. The Twotter has the same problem, much as I'd love to convince my boss to buy one.

A few other thoughts on the subject...
1) It has to be turbine powered for fuel availability, Avgas isn't easy to come by in Africa and good avgas is even harder. Jet A is pretty available most places at least at one end of a trip or the other.

2)The Russian stuff is brilliant for this kind of thing, especially the An32, but the operators are usually dubious at best and the planes do have a distressing tenancy to make sudden, violent arrivals. It seems like one goes in in Congo almost every week. Most of the aviation authorities around here are slowly but surely seeing them phased out. A lot of the aid agencies are insisting on newer equipment and real operators (especially EU based groups that have Health and Safety standards for their workers).

3) Ross hit the nail on the head when it comes to ground transport. There are few roads in this part of the world and lots of poor and heavily armed people along what roads there are.

Rigpiggy, the cargo comes to the airport on standard pallets but they get broken up because the cargo gets loaded by hand anyway. The strip at the other end has no infrastructure to speak of. It's all boxes that are about half a meter cubed maybe. Small enough to get through the door even if the airplane wasn't originally intended for freight (like a Jetstream 41 maybe...it's got the range but can it handle the dirt strip???).

Density altitude isn't an issue, 3000ft MSL is the highest and the runways are plenty long enough for any turboprop twin I'm aware of.

Regulatory agencies around here will pretty much only issue a Certificate of Airworthiness if the plane already has one from the US or Europe.

As for the budget...that's what I've been banging my head against the lap top for a week trying to figure out. :ugh:

It's astonishing how hard it is to actually find out what an airplane costs. It looks to me like ATRs and newer Dash-8s are out of the running. I think we might be looking at upwards of 2.5m for the airplane itself so that pretty much eliminates the DHC8-300s and 400s.

It looks like I'm down to the Saab 340B+, JS41, and older Dash 8 100Bs or 200s. Unless somebody has a brainwave.

And then there is figuring operating costs of a 20 year old bird. I'm going to use a Magic 8 ball for most of that math.
Anybody know a good source of data for hourly operating costs and real world fuel burn. I'm knee deep in manufactures data and most of it optimistic to say the least.:{

[N707ZS]

Another thought what about a CASA 212 would need a few flights or a 235 if you could find one.

[DownIn3Green]

I was proud to be one of the first pilots involved in the B-727 in Angola...Great A/C, 4000' dirt rwys no prob(with crews of many yrs of experience), always overweight landings, 40,000 lbs. payload...

But, always enough fuel on board to go missed one time, try again, then head back to Luanda...

Why don't you contact Transafrik???

They're experts in the WFP...

P.S. That was in 1992, the yr Clinton got elected....

[sailorman87]

ATR72 sounds a lot like an option to do it,
if you really ned 13t per trip you`ll need 2-3 planes depending on the wind an wx
apart from that T/O and LDG should be very possible and fuel required for a round trip should be around 3.5t (rough estimate)
otherwise if you´ll need to squeeze all in one trip maybe a Herc or an Electra?
don´t have any numbers on those though...

[wasCorsair]

I'm afraid the 727 would be a bit more then we need unless we could find some other contracts. I've looked pretty seriously at the Casas as well, the 212 lacks the range but the 235 is a possibility. There are very few in the civilian world.

What about a stripped down EMB120?

[SMT Member]

What about a Convair 580? Should be a few kicking around here and there.

[DVR7R]

Hi,

Just an idea (Not sure on price) but how about an ATP?

748?

[5Y744]

Bae748/F27 should be on your list

[wasCorsair]

These could both be brilliant for the job (lots of fuel but that's offset by the cost of getting them).
Does anyone have real world numbers on what the BAE748 or Fokker actually burn per hour?
Tons of stuff on the web but it all seems to repeat itself and is awfully optimistic....

Hi Sailorman,
We need to move 3000 kg per week, can be in multiple trips.

Thanks

[wasCorsair]

Oops, 12,000 kg per week.

[sailorman87]

ok 13000kg should be no problem with 3 trips and sufficient fuel
also the ATR is able to operate without any ground equipment don`t know if that maybe an issue at the destination?

[AAIGUY]

Daily trips in a Caravan. 208B
Good for at least 2000lbs a trip with
2000lbs of fuel. Hell.. strap a barrel in it for just in case.
operate it on a daily sched type.. cheap to buy.. too easy.

[5Y744]

Shorts 360, square fuselage for max. bulk + rear loading door

[truthinbeer]

PC-6. 1,000kg a time = 3 trips a week for 3,000kg.
STOL. Large cargo door so load the full pallet at base strip, and break it down at destination.

[dieselsix]

What you need is a Convair 580 or if you can afford it a Convair 5800.
Give Kelowna a call and they can give you the specifics.

[hunterboy]

How about something like this? If you could put the time and effort in reregistering,etc....

(http://www.edisposals.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/Disposals-Public-Site/en_US/-/GBP/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=MieqQ4wkQg8000ArvQ_8K1sp000050FW0BB8?ProductUUID= 7Q7AqBIQwa0AAAEs6uxaBeDh&CatalogCategoryID=VaLAqBELPagAAAED8GeasfoP&JumpTo=OfferList)
Disposal Services Authority (http://www.edisposals.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/Disposals-Public-Site/en_US/-/GBP/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=MieqQ4wkQg8000ArvQ_8K1sp000050FW0BB8?ProductUUID= 7Q7AqBIQwa0AAAEs6uxaBeDh&CatalogCategoryID=VaLAqBELPagAAAED8GeasfoP&JumpTo=OfferList)

[billynospares]

We have an Andover here that would do nicely cargo ramp and all currently on the military register but sat doing nothing :ok:

[CargoOne]

You can forget about flying any turboprop (incl AN32) with full payload fuelled for 1000 nm 2 leg mission. It either shall be the next class (ie AN12 or Herc) or a jet.

[mogas-82]

I second all those guys saying you should go for AN-24/26/32.
Reasons against "western" aircraft proposals:
1. Even very used ATRs are somewhat expensive.
2. Noone in their right mind will lease you ant ATR for such an operation at a reasonable cost
3. Aircraft like F27 are cheap - but where will you get service and rated pilots?
4. C208, Twotter are for short haul and mostly passenger ops. Using them for such a mission is only feasible if the destination runway is <2500 ft. long.

Reasons for AN-24/26/32:
1. They were built for 3rd world conditions
2. They are readily available ACMI with not too many questions asked
3. They burn about the same amount of fuel/kg payload as other suggestions (ATR excluded)
4. Am not sure if it's manual approved but 1.5 km should be more than enough to land and afterwards take off without payload
5. Noone gives a **** that you use them especially for cargo ops - and you will have to pay "extra" eventually anyway

You can always select an operator that assures you of some standards - it's not like those birds are unsafe just because they are USSR/CIS made. If the operator services them according to their manuals everything should be fine.

[elobeid]

I am currently using an An74 in Afghanistan, 7.5 ton payload, great range. High over-wing jet, intakes well away from rough strip. Ramp loaded and provision for 10 passengers. Let me know if you need one.

[AAIGUY]

Caravan is fine with super short runways and is made for cargo.
Fedex has like 200 of them

[JoeyBartonstwitter]

If can be done in 2 trips then the Lockheed Electra would be perfect, however would need an ASU at destination(Not too many with an APU now).