View Full Version : Adieu Gaddafi?

22nd Aug 2011, 06:51
The precipitous collapse of the Gaddafi regime in the last 72 hours has been spectacular. It looks like his days as dictator are numbered but what now for Libya?

Will the rebel forces splinter into, disparate perhaps, warring factions? Will the Islamists prevail? Will Libya became a democracy? What do PPRuNers think?

What of the oil and Western "interests"?

Rebels sweep into Tripoli (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/?source=refresh)

Despite the euphoria, the rebels are divided - Africa, World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/despite-the-euphoria-the-rebels-are-divided-2341792.html)


22nd Aug 2011, 08:47
Worse off than before is my take.

Won't be long till Gaddafi will be begged to return.

Egypt will take a little longer.

tony draper
22nd Aug 2011, 09:03
Doubtless we will be offering them large sums of money to repair all the stuff we have blown up for them.
The West's motivation these days seems to be
"If we keep giving you lots of money will you please love us"

Al Fakhem
22nd Aug 2011, 09:17
Where are the thousands of Gaddafi supporters who used to flood the streets?

Same story all over the world, when the victors moved in (Germany 1945, GDR 1989) - suddenly there is no one to be found who would have supported the old regime.

Some countries seem to be most flexible in this regard, Germany being one of them. I know a CEO of a company there who tried everything to oust a member of his company's workers' council, because he viewed that particular person as being a "socialist and a communist".

Earlier this year, the company was taken over by a state-owned Chinese outfit, and the German CEO now reports to a party secretary of the Chinese Communist Party. Instead of resigning, the German CEO is now an obedient running dug of the same communists he despised so much.

But coming back to Libya. There seems to be no real political objective among the rebels. All they shout is "Allah-u-akhbar" - that is not a political programme at the best of times.

22nd Aug 2011, 09:28
Yelling from the allahoo snackbar menu is merely a general
purpose catchcry among the islamic lot - covers everything
from political revolution to cutting off infidels heads all the
way to "oh shit I'm in big trouble now!"

As for the lot of arabs who really deep down gives a shit? Its
just a shame most of the world's oil is buried under the wrong

tony draper
22nd Aug 2011, 09:40
Well if we had stopped using their poxy oil and looked for alternatives in the 1970s when they shut off the taps for the first time as we should have we could ignore the buggas and allow those places to dry up and blow away as nature intended.:suspect:

22nd Aug 2011, 09:42
I was just a wee lad during those embargo days, but I recall
some very high hopes of new technologies to replace oil being
on some drawing boards. :(

22nd Aug 2011, 09:43
Adieu Gaddafi, or A Jew, Gaddafi?

It has been said that his mother was Jewish, so maybe he should head for Israel. :E

tony draper
22nd Aug 2011, 10:08
Apparently every journalist who has ever interviewed him report he sits farting constantly,perhaps all dictators are prone to wind which accounts for them being nasty.
It's ok I wont be.

Effluent Man
22nd Aug 2011, 10:14
The Adieu isn't the problem,the Bonjour is.We have absolutely no idea who the rebels are,who leads them,or what direction they will head in. The West will look back longingly on the stability that existed in Libya.

Krystal n chips
22nd Aug 2011, 10:20
" The West will look back longingly on the stability that existed in Libya. "

Presumably you are including terrorist groups (various ) and the PIRA in that sentiment ?....

And then we have this....

BBC News - Oil prices fall as rebels enter Libyan capital (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14610908)

Which will of course be passed on to the customer.....:rolleyes:

22nd Aug 2011, 10:47
It's not over till the fat mullah sings.

22nd Aug 2011, 11:04
I've often wondered K&C/teddytf2 (or whatever you call yourself)
why you lot never joined with al qaeda - you both have essentially
the same goals, albeit with different strategies and ideology.

22nd Aug 2011, 11:33
Colonel Gaddafi was today in hiding as rebels stormed the presidential compound, forcing tanks to open fire. The Libyan leader was believed to be cowering in a bunker outside the capital, as wild celebrations broke out across the country among opposition supporters cheering on the rebels last night. The dramatic scenes prompted a desperate fightback from Gaddafi supporters as snipers became locked in gun battles with rebels. Today David Cameron cut short his holiday and said that the regime was 'falling apart'

22nd Aug 2011, 12:10
At the end of WW2 Canada offered the UK a very preferential oil deal to help get the 'Old Country' back on it's feet, the British government of the day, a socialist government, not well known for it's foresight and wisdom, turned down Canada's offer on the grounds that it was more appropriate to encourage certain Middle Eastern countries by buying their oil and advancing their economy. We now know what a major error of judgment that was, a balanced approach of accepting the Canadian offer and promoting a measured development of Middle Eastern oil may have gone a long way to wards avoiding the UK's current bankrupt state.

22nd Aug 2011, 12:54
I expect Gaddafi will be offered asylum in the London hotel owned by one of his sons.

22nd Aug 2011, 12:59
It's not over till the fat mullah sings.

They have fat mullah's, every one I've seen is a scrawny as hell.

David Cameron cut short his holiday and said that the regime was 'falling apart'

Doesn't seem to be getting much of a holiday, didn't he have to rush back due to the riots. At this rate he mose well give up on the idea.

Lon More
22nd Aug 2011, 13:12
Back in the1980s an attempt was made to develope a modern steam engine, the ACE 3000 (http://www.trainweb.org/tusp/ult.html) to cut the USA's dependence on oil. Smothered by the oil barons. inc the Bush dynasty.

22nd Aug 2011, 13:18
I've often wondered K&C/teddytf2 (or whatever you call yourself)
why you lot never joined with al qaeda - you both have essentially
the same goals, albeit with different strategies and ideology.

Er... say what?! :confused:

22nd Aug 2011, 13:27
Maybe this would be a good time to ask the remnants of the immigration authorities at Tripoli airport to return my Penguin paperback copy of "I, Claudius", which they rather rudely confiscated from me on arrival in 1977? And also that day's copy of the Daily Telegraph; I would quite like to complete the crossword I had half finished on the journey from Gatwick.

I guess they need all the goodwill they can get, in the dying days of the colonel's regime ... :rolleyes:

22nd Aug 2011, 13:28
Er... say what?!

Ask him, not me.

22nd Aug 2011, 13:36
Doubtless we will be offering them large sums of money to repair all the stuff we have blown up for them.
The West's motivation these days seems to be
"If we keep giving you lots of money will you please love us"

Sounds like a good investment.

I'd rather invest in a society that wants to be productive than a society on the dole.

look what lend-lease got us :E

22nd Aug 2011, 15:11
You're the one who said it, Slasher. If you're going to accuse people on this forum of having the same goals as a bunch of murderous terrorists, then back it up.

Krystal n chips
22nd Aug 2011, 15:17
" I've often wondered K&C/teddytf2 (or whatever you call yourself)
why you lot never joined with al qaeda - you both have essentially
the same goals, albeit with different strategies and ideology "

:confused: Are you having a hormonal hiatus Slasher ?....I think it would be fair to say that, whilst I have liberal ( as in philosophies ) tendencies, I am about as far from a q as you can get...true, I don't like the right wing factions but I do support the UK Mil. and am far from averse to seeing terrorists being removed from this planet.

and besides which, ladies who are vriginal do not bear thinking about ...;)

22nd Aug 2011, 15:58
Aye. Virginity is in itself, its own punishment.

Did we like Ghadaffi? If so, when? Hard to keep score without the manual.

He entered the scene, 1970 ish? He must have performed to some standard to be that perennial, eh? Who's Standard?

All the World's a Stage, eh Yorick? And on it, its players, for good and/or ill. Whose carpet did Muammar track his ess on?

22nd Aug 2011, 16:08
true, I don't like the right wing factions but I do support the UK Mil.

That's all I wanted to know thank you.

Krystal n chips
22nd Aug 2011, 16:48
" That's all I wanted to know thank you "

Oh Slasher, you have no idea what those words of approval mean to me...it's like being appointed the class milk monitor for the week all over again...:D

22nd Aug 2011, 17:02
Lon, are you sure it wasn't the enviro whackers who pushed off against the ACE 3000? I loved the link, thanks, but the "clean coal" chimera has been with us since about 1973 ... clean being a relative term, yes?

The coal lobby isn't just a pile of milque toasts, I assure you. ;)

tony draper
22nd Aug 2011, 17:06
Milk Monitor jeez! you a freemason or summat?:rolleyes:

22nd Aug 2011, 17:38
Presumably you are including terrorist groups (various ) and the PIRA in that sentiment ?....

Indeed. And we cannot forget Yvonne Fletcher either.

Krystal n chips
22nd Aug 2011, 17:59
" Presumably you are including terrorist groups (various ) and the PIRA in that sentiment ?.... "

Alas, hellsbrink...it seems the irony was a touch too dry for you .

Mr D...sir !....I will accept many defamations of my pristine character...:hmm:...but association with the group you mention ensures your appointment with the locking wire garotte ....comrade !

Given the rabid and rancid witch who presided over her select few in the class, it came as a surprise to me as well...however...giving me control of the biscuit tin as well was a big mistake...on her part..:E

22nd Aug 2011, 18:06
Well, since you were referring to the bit about how "The West will look back longingly on the stability that existed in Libya.", I reckoned you were bang on the money with how some in the "West" are forgetting about groups like PIRA, Red Army Faction, Red Brigade, etc, and that's before we start on the various attacks carried out by Libya itself.

flying lid
22nd Aug 2011, 18:19
I would not be suprised that Gaddafi is with Ebagum right now.


22nd Aug 2011, 19:17
From Guido Fawkes:

Labour and Gaddafi, Follow the Money (http://order-order.com/2011/08/22/labour-and-gaddafi-follow-the-money/)

Guido’s critique of Miliband’s handling of the first days of the Libyan uprising upset some of his apologists, who dispute the fact that the Labour Party are losing an ally today. In order to put this to rest once and for all, Guido thought he would take a last look at Gaddafi, his family and the key players in the last government.
In September 2009 Gordon Brown told the Andrew Marr Show “there was no deal” to have the Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset al-Megrahi released early on compassionate grounds. Two years later the convicted terrorist was seen cheering on Gaddafi from the comfort of sunny Tripoli. “So if you’re suggesting there was any deal, there was no deal. There was no conspiracy, there was no attempt to make anything conditional on anything else” Brown promised. The line was pushed the next day by Ed Balls, when he told (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8241172.stm) the Today program“none of us wanted to see the release of al-Megrahi.” However we know now that this is just not true…
Far from it in fact. A Cabinet Office report in July 2010 revealed that the Labour government did (http://order-order.com/2011/02/23/a-wee-bit-off/) “all they could” to get Megrahi released. And it wasn’t just the Cabinet Office blowing Gordon’s line out of the water. Guido brought you leaked emails from former Blair adviser John McTernan that explicitly mentioned a deal (http://order-order.com/2011/02/06/al-megrahi-deal-smoking-gunjohn-mcternans-email-reveals-deal-terms/). Jack Straw let slip (http://order-order.com/2011/02/13/selective-amnesia/) that British trade had been a major factor in the release. As Guido reported back in February, the Scottish nationalists tried to line their pockets (http://order-order.com/2011/02/13/selective-amnesia/) too.
“Scot’s justice was bought and the Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill’s price was £100 million. The Labour government in Westminster brought forward legislation to get the SNP government in Scotland off the Somerville judgement hook in June 2009, two months later Megrahi was released.”
Far from Gordon’s line that the decision was made in Scotland and that he couldn’t of possibly have had anything to do with it, a dirty deal was concocted at the heart of the British government. It involved Downing Street, the British intelligence services and BP. In September 2009 Guido brought you the players (http://order-order.com/2009/09/03/the-libyan-deal-makers-linked-to-downing-street/):
“Nick Butler is the Economic Adviser brought into Downing Street when Gordon became Prime Minister. Prior to that he was a senior strategist for BP. He joined the firm in 1977 and helped to develop close links between BP and New Labour in the 1990s.
Incidentally Butler is a mate of Peter Mandelson who has also been treasurer of the Fabian Society for more than 25 years. He helped to bring close to half-a-million (http://order-order.com/2009/12/04/labours-expensive-manifesto-club/) into Brown’s coffers from his city chums.
“Sir Mark Allen is a Special Adviser to BP. Before that he was the senior MI6 officer who negotiated with Saif Gaddafi to end Libya’s international isolation in 2003-04…”
It was these two men, one ex-BP then at the heart of government, the other ex-MI6 and then at the heart of BP, who conspired to give Gaddafi what he wanted for access to Libya’s oil. Less than twenty-four hours after Guido revealed the cast more details began trickling out. (http://order-order.com/2009/09/04/straw-lobbied-by-allen-for-bp-deal-over-megrahi/) Allen had called Jack Straw twice in November 2007 to put pressure on him for a deal. Despite initial denials, BP also coughed that they had lobbied the government over the slow progress of the deal, highlighting that there would be “negative consequences for UK commercial interests”. And what was Peter Mandelson’s disingenuous take on these allegations? “It’s not only completely wrong to make such a suggestion it’s also quite offensive…”
No doubt Mandy had plenty of time to make up his mind as to what is offensive whilst he spent a shooting weekend (http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/56629,people,news,lord-mandelson-joins-saif-gaddafi-at-shooting-party) with Gadaffi’s son and Nat Rothschild. A tight (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1359330/Gaddafi-heir-Saif-inevitably-friend-Andy-Mandy.html) and close gruesome threesome. There is no denying the closeness of the upper echelons of the last government to the murderers currently being hounded out of Tripoli. Just last year Gaddafi was asking the Libyan people (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1303123/Thank-God-Gordon-Gaddafi-orders-Libyans-pray-Brown--thank-releasing-Lockerbie-bomber.html) to “pray for Gordon Brown”, but it’s the hand of Gaddafi’s “good friend” (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1360472/Libya-Gaddafis-son-asks-Tony-Blairs-help-crush-enemies.html) Tony Blair which is never far away. The deal was concocted on Tony’s watch and he even approved (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8353501/Libya-Tony-Blair-agreed-to-train-Gaddafis-special-forces-in-deal-in-the-desert.html) the training of Gaddafi’s special forces by the SAS. So close were they that it was Blair that Gaddafi phoned to seek advice on how to deal with the uprisings. Mandelson was keen to help out too – speaking of Saif Gadaffi’s chilling threats to slaughter the rebels, Mandy thinks he could have spun it better (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1361294/Libya-Peter-Mandelson-defends-Gaddafi-saying-Tony-Blair-right-make-friends.html#ixzz1VkmpL8K7):
‘I’d rather have had a couple of minutes with him beforehand to say that you know this sort of performance in a very clumsy and ham-fisted way is not going to get you anywhere.’
Even Douglas Alexander, Labour’s Shadow Foreign Secretary who was so keen (http://order-order.com/2011/08/22/eds-attacks-didnt-fly/) to talk down the threat of No-Fly Zone, took to the airwaves (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr15e1hJ7EY) to claim Blair was right to make friends with Gadaffi, even after he had begun slaughtering his own people. With such a shameful past you would think the “next generation” of the Labour Party might have been more careful to keep their distance from the Mad Dog of the desert. But no…
As the crisis kicked off in February Guido brought you the Miliband family’s own connections to Saif Gaddafi. LSE Professor David Held, who is seemingly in charge of desecrating Ralph Miliband’s memory, welcomed Saif to LSE as a “representative of the Miliband program” - a series of lectures in memory the Labour leader’s father. Held failed to mention the £300,000 he had taken off Gaddafi in his sycophantic introduction. Showing his trademark judgement, it turns out Ed is a very big fan (http://order-order.com/2011/02/24/milibands-ideological-guru-admires-saif-gadaffi/) of Professor Held.

22nd Aug 2011, 20:17
boo hiss hiss


Sir George Cayley
22nd Aug 2011, 21:32
International romeoing?


Lon More
22nd Aug 2011, 21:40
From Guido Fawkes:
It's on the Internet so it must be true.

22nd Aug 2011, 21:42
International romeoing?
Please, Sir George, the DSK thread is over there >>>>>>>>>

Lon/stuckgear: is Guido Fawkes a pseudonym, or a real person? Not sure, being on this side of the pond, how many grains of salt (0 to 100) one might need to take with his / her writings.

22nd Aug 2011, 21:53
Lonewolf, Guido Fawkes AKA Paul Staines, political commentator:

Staines is a former libertarian who described in a 2000 publication[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Staines#cite_note-kinder-libertarianism-14) how he became a libertarian in 1980 after reading Karl Popper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper)'s The Open Society and its Enemies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Society_and_its_Enemies). He joined the Young Conservatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Conservatives) whilst at Humberside College of Higher Education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humberside_College_of_Higher_Education) "because they were the only people around who were anti-Socialist or at least anti-Soviet", and at this time began calling himself Delaire-Staines, the name shortened by his father to Staines in the 1960s. Having joined the Federation of Conservative Students (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_of_Conservative_Students), he described his politics as "Thatcher on drugs". He relates that at college he was a "right-wing pain in the butt who was more interested in student politics than essays", who went on "to work in the various right-wing pressure groups and think tanks that proliferated in the late eighties". He admitted that his uncompromising attitude towards libertarianism had been harsh and off-putting, but that it was "time for a more effective, kinder, gentler kind of Libertarianism". Staines has stated that he is a republican.
He has been active in the Libertarian Alliance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Alliance). He was pictured at the 1987 Libertarian Alliance conference with a t-shirt supporting UNITA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNITA), produced by his Popular Propaganda enterprise (while at college), which produced posters and t-shirts.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Staines#cite_note-15)
Staines worked as "foreign policy analyst" for the Committee for a Free Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_a_Free_Britain), a right-wing Conservative pressure group, alongside David Hart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hart_(UK_political_activist)). Staines acted as editor of British Briefing a long-standing publication by the group that was a "monthly intelligence analysis of the activities of the extreme left" that sought to "smear Labour MPs and left-leaning lawyers and writers".[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Staines#cite_note-ecstasy-8)

In 1989, Staines published In the Grip of the Sandinistas: Human Rights in Nicaragua 1979–1989, under the auspices of the International Society for Human Rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Society_for_Human_Rights) (of which he was UK secretary-general), analysing the Sandinista's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front) in Nicaragua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua) from 1979 to 1989. He was then the editor of Human Rights Briefing.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Staines#cite_note-serendipity-16)

his website is regularly reviewed by MP's and with his history of breaking news stories before the media has also been quoted and has been plagarised by media political writers in the mainstream media and has challenged many an MP to sue him for libel if they want to challenge data he has presented.

his website is here Guy Fawkes' blog of parliamentary plots, rumours and conspiracy (http://order-order.com/)

Lon More
22nd Aug 2011, 22:08
his website is regularly reviewed by MP's
By MP's what; and before or after the comic section?

22nd Aug 2011, 22:24
Thank you both, I hadn't realized that Libertarian advocacy had "crossed the pond," so to speak.

That Guido (Staines) feels up to taking the piss out of MP's on a regular basis does not by itself argue against his musings being worth a look (though "smearing Labour" might be his favourite hobby). "Objective" may not be a good descriptive of his outpourings.

Not sure if "smearing" and "criticizing" are being used interchangeably. I note that depending upon where one sits vis a vis one's subject of critique, the two terms may be used interchangeably. As ever, that's politics. :p


22nd Aug 2011, 23:51
In UK we're far superior. Sometimes we even have "democratically elected" dictators.....


23rd Aug 2011, 01:23

BBC News - Libya conflict: Gaddafi forces hold off rebel push (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14625205)

One of the sons who was captured has arrieved at one of the hotels to give a news conference. What sort of half baked situation is this.

23rd Aug 2011, 02:55
I see the future - Don't Cry for me Venezuela. But flight might be difficult to organize.

23rd Aug 2011, 03:32
rh200, don't bother following the news because most of it is being made up. Far from Cameroon's claim that the regime is failing (though I wish he were right), it is quite possible that things degenerate into a long medieval-style siege. I doubt that Gaddafi and his wretched sons spent all those years without spending a lot of dosh on underground accommodation and stocking up on baked beans etc, and doubt NATO's balls to drop bunker busters because one of them may go off course and even if not so there may be moral ramifications about taking out scores of folk like that.

23rd Aug 2011, 04:14
Not to fear, President Obama has already claimed victory!

Gee, where did I hear that before? :ooh:

23rd Aug 2011, 06:20
I doubt that Gaddafi and his wretched sons spent all those years without spending a lot of dosh on underground accommodation and stocking up on baked beans

That would explain his legendary flatulence.

23rd Aug 2011, 07:13
One of the sons who was captured has arrieved at one of the hotels to give a news conference. What sort of half baked situation is this.

Yup, the other son is reported to have escaped from wherever he was captured too and claims that Gaddafi himself has been captured are also being refuted.:rolleyes:

Solid Rust Twotter
23rd Aug 2011, 07:22
Reports down here he may be heading for Angola.

23rd Aug 2011, 07:30
Con Wasn't from the deck of some aircraft carrier?

23rd Aug 2011, 08:08
Did anyone else see the footage yesterday of one of the rebels loading a heavy machine gun ammo belt?
He made sure the rounds were properly seated by whacking the ends with a hammer! :eek:

23rd Aug 2011, 08:16
Actually I was watching all the people (from various parts of the globe) squarking about the peoples revolution and how it shouldn't be seen as a NATO thing. Not long after that a rebel was talking to a reporter about how "NATO rules" with out them they wouldn't have had a chance. Thought it was funny, seems the latest reports are we have upped our protection of civillians and are bombing anything that might look pro wack job.

Downing Street confirms UK PM David Cameron has now returned to his family holiday. There will be a second meeting of the NSC on Libya [National Security Council on Libya] later this morning, it is not yet clear who will chair.

Looks like the old PM is off for a third time to see if he can have a holiday. Wonder if that means he thinks its all done and dusted.

23rd Aug 2011, 08:18
Yup, you didn't imagine it, saw it as well and admired his aim. He wasn't just gently tapping...:uhoh:

tony draper
23rd Aug 2011, 08:28
Just thinking if and when civil war breaks out in the USA again the North stands no chance this time as the South has all the Pickup Trucks.

23rd Aug 2011, 08:32
South has all the Pickup Trucks.

You could fit a small eco-friendly machine gun to the roof of the prius:p

tony draper
23rd Aug 2011, 08:40
Some of those chaps are good back yard engineers,saw a rocket pod from a aircraft strapped to the back of a pickup,Fred would approve.

23rd Aug 2011, 09:09

BBC News - Libya conflict: Gaddafi forces hold off rebel push (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14625205)

One of the sons who was captured has arrived at one of the hotels to give a news conference. What sort of half baked situation is this.

I turned on the radio this morning to hear this and my first thought was we are being played like a cheap fiddle. Maybe yesterdays news was manipulated to try to get people onto the streets in Tripoli?

Effluent Man
23rd Aug 2011, 09:30
My thoughts exactly,and the stunt backfired.It's difficult to know what to believe but personally I think that Gaddafi's original claim of Al Quada involvement with the rebels could turn out to be not the fantasy that it was claimed to be.

23rd Aug 2011, 09:48
Did anyone else see the footage yesterday of one of the rebels loading a heavy machine gun ammo belt?
He made sure the rounds were properly seated by whacking the ends with a hammer!

Seemed like a dangerous stunt to me, I thought he was about to shoot himself in the foot!

tony draper
23rd Aug 2011, 09:59
From experiments carried out in one's sproghood I can tell you a pimer cap has to be wacked pretty hard and generally with a pointed object,you peeps seem to have led sheltered lives and must have just played with teddy bears and such when you were sprogs.

23rd Aug 2011, 10:05
Nay, because dad always kept his guns locked safely away, I made my own shotgun. I got an old bit of aerial tube, cut it to length and hammered one end flat. I then fashioned a stock and taped the tube to it. For the charge I used a penny banger and the shot was fine gravel. Light the banger, pop it down the neck of the tube, followed by the shot. It all went pear shaped when one of the farm hands complained about me stalking his cat.

tony draper
23rd Aug 2011, 10:21
Ah yes the penny banger gun,mine had a proper posh stock from a air rifle,sounds like you were brung up properly Mr S.:ok:

23rd Aug 2011, 11:04
Concerning munitions and hammers you can be like my father who as a schoolboy manufactured his own gunpowder using saltpeter, charcoal etc. purloined from the school lab.

All very good... Then he inserted gunpwder into a metal based toothpaste tube (end cut open) and then proceeded to hammer end shut. One misjudged blow and then blood spattered up against the whitewashed garage wall and no right thumb...!


tony draper
23rd Aug 2011, 12:37
Primer caps used to contain fulminate of mercury,much more unstable that gunpowder,dunno if they still do.

23rd Aug 2011, 14:58
My bet is the prevailing opinion of old Mumar' methods of controlling Libya for decades may change after we see the aftermath of competing tribes and sects turning on each other in the race to collect the oil checks.

Like Saddam Hussein, the best line he could say before the floor drops on the gallows: "Now do you all understand why I had to do all those distasteful things to keep this country together?"

tony draper
23rd Aug 2011, 15:28
Reckon one B52 offloading over that compound would do the trick.-

23rd Aug 2011, 15:33
Seems to me that there are a number of inherently unstable countries which will always be that way.

Libya is just one.

23rd Aug 2011, 16:03
Libya is one of the BETTER ones when it comes down to it.

Or at least it used to be. Not been there for decades...

23rd Aug 2011, 16:47
He is too ugly and stupid to live.

Solid Rust Twotter
23rd Aug 2011, 16:47
More importantly, will anyone have the 'nads to discharge a firearm in the same room as El Flatuloso?:uhoh:

23rd Aug 2011, 17:16
The Beeb is reporting that 'Three independant news agencies" are reporting that the rebels have entered the Ghadaffi compound - but they (the Beeb) are unable to substantiate the claims, as, despite having several correspondents in Libya (and in Tripoli), they are apparently in the wrong locations.

It is about to get dark in Tripoli, and the rebels will probably withdraw to the 'safety' of the outer suburbs (as they did last night).

Maybe the Ghaddafi supporters are waiting until the rebels are entirely within the compound before shutting the gates and then the battle will begin?

23rd Aug 2011, 17:23
No doubt the NATO boys will be keeping the pressure on Gaddafi's forces throughout the night. There's nothing like a couple of sleepless nights to sap your morale.

tony draper
23rd Aug 2011, 17:32
Lets hope the Libyans deal with him themselves and do not send him to thosed bewigged feckwits in the Haig or he will probably die of old age before those buffoons reach a conclusion.

23rd Aug 2011, 17:37
Reports I am seeing, on the Torygraph site, are that the Libyans won't let him go to Den Haag as they want to see him in their own courts.

Oh, it's also reported that the rebels have taken over Gadaffi Duck's compound.

Libya Live - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8390035/Libya-Live.html)

23rd Aug 2011, 17:51

'And now the end is near and so I face the final curtain...'

23rd Aug 2011, 18:27
From the link hellsbrink provided ... (Intereting technique to post a running commentary).

18.17 A rather big explosion just went off near Gaddafi's house where Alex Crawford was reporting. The rebels moved away quite quickly and she had to cut off from the report. It is unclear what the source of the bigger bang was but we should hear more soon. It could just have be over excited rebels firing tanks.

18.16 Sky is showing footage of the rebel flag being raised over Gaddafi's house inside the overrun compound.

18.14 CNN is showing discarded uniforms believed to have been shed by Gaddafi's troops as they fled from the compound. Apparently they dropped weapons as they went.

18.11 The US says it will work to release around $1.5 billion dollars in frozen Libyan assets in the coming days

23rd Aug 2011, 19:14
Not sure of the category they fall into, however I feel the later.

Hope the future is better than the last one.


23rd Aug 2011, 20:27
Intereting technique to post a running commentary

They're all the rage here in the UK. Check out the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk) and BBC news (http://www,bbc.co.uk/news) sites for more of the same.

Looks like Gaddafi's ploy to hand out weapons to the residents of Tripoli has back-fired spectacularly. He obviously didn't realise how much they all hated him.

23rd Aug 2011, 20:32
Just been a report on the Beeb about how Gadaffi called some Russian chess guy that is over there and said he's still in Tripoli and that his troops are driving the "rats" out.

Guess he's been looking at Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf for tips on what to say during such an event.......

Oh, Lonewolf. They basically add stuff from Twitter to their "feed".

tony draper
23rd Aug 2011, 20:49
They all seem to end up like that,the inner circle afraid to tell them the truth lest they take their anger out on them,they sit deluded in the bunker, Hitler Sadam Nixon the Tzar, Maggie,all same same.

23rd Aug 2011, 20:53
Not forgetting the three B's - Blair, Bush & Brown.

23rd Aug 2011, 21:33
Oh, Lonewolf. They basically add stuff from PPRuNe to their "feed".

if they link through R&N they'll be inundated with METARs and Boeing vs Airbus rants !

23rd Aug 2011, 21:37

Doncha just hate it when Twïtter gets changed to Proon......

(Saying that, if they looked at JB everything would be the fault of Maggie and then Godwin's Law would be invoked before someone wondered if Gadaffi would take off on a conveyor belt)

Solid Rust Twotter
23rd Aug 2011, 21:42
Perhaps the word Witter would suffice Mr Brink? An adequate description of the drivel it carries as well...

tony draper
23rd Aug 2011, 21:43
Surprizing when you read about how few people a Dictator actually needs around him (or her)to actually run a country, ie keep the lid on and the oinks downtrodden.

23rd Aug 2011, 21:44
Naah, I'll stick to using the umlaut, it's simple enough for me to do.

So would Gadaffi take off on a conveyor belt?

tony draper
23rd Aug 2011, 22:40
I reckon he is sitting alone in a small room deep underground somewhere in front of a empty coffee table empty apart from a walther PPK on the right and a cyanide capsule on the left.

23rd Aug 2011, 22:44
Nah, he's in the UK.

Local landlady just had a foreign guy in a funny uniform looking for a room.

She said he farted a lot.

23rd Aug 2011, 22:54
Had he lost his very colourful peaked cap vulcanised? Just seen on TV a wag who broke into his bedroom wearing said hat and carrying a gold statuette and gold chain!

24th Aug 2011, 00:50
Just wondering, is there a point on the beeb that they make a big annoucment and change the definition on who there refering to as "the government" spokesmen and who's the rebels.

24th Aug 2011, 01:52
Sourced via William Banzai of Zerohedge fame

WHERE'S MUAMAR | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/expd/6073345239/)

24th Aug 2011, 05:59
I have been out a bit in Tripoli discreetly, without being seen by people, and... I did not feel that Tripoli was in danger," Col Gaddafi added during the audio broadcast.:D:D:DOkay this is getting to be to Baghdad Bob like

Frank Arouet
24th Aug 2011, 07:24
And when all the despots are gone, who is going to keep the tribes in order.

Political correctness perhaps?

Would have though somebody would have learn't something from the Iraq debacle, plus the soon to be released best seller about that other place where the West interfered to give an untameable mob since Ghengis Khan democracy/ theocracy/ freedom/ and free bullets for their AK47's

I can see this whole Libya bunfight coming to bite the West on the bum very shortly.

Why weren't the same standards applied to Magabe?

24th Aug 2011, 07:40
Why weren't the same standards applied to Magabe?

Didn't use the magic words "show no mercy"

Al Fakhem
24th Aug 2011, 12:01
Whilst nobody mourns Gadaffi's exit (dead or alive), it's very hard to say what or who will succeed him.

Frankly, the people shouting at pro-Gaddafi demonstrations in the past did not look much different from those at pro-Rebel demonstrations. Women wearing headscarves and chanting slogans do not trigger thoughts of a liberal society :=

Effluent Man
24th Aug 2011, 12:58
As the fight was led by Sarkozy,with Dave holding his coat it's not difficult to believe that this might have something to do with the former's re-election ambitions.

24th Aug 2011, 13:19
Due to the extraordinary 'defence' of the Rixos hotel where the media are staying, it is suspected that 'someone important' might be holed-up under the hotel.

Ghaddafi's forces have 'abandoned' the compound (and he has said that he is no longer in there) so it might be that he is, in fact, in the hotel ?

Libya: the siege of the Rixos hotel - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8719477/Libya-the-siege-of-the-Rixos-hotel.html)

Charlie Foxtrot India
24th Aug 2011, 13:27
He'sprobably gone to stay at a mate's house.


24th Aug 2011, 13:43
Women wearing headscarves and chanting slogans do not
trigger thoughts of a liberal society

I'm just waiting for yer average local allahoons on the street
to start the "darg marg Amrika!" chant Mr Fakhem.

I believe the Islamic Rage Boys choir aren't done with their
concerts in London yet.

24th Aug 2011, 15:44
Why weren't the same standards applied to Magabe?

Because Rhodesia Bob wasn't a state sponsor of terrorism, meaning that NATO, etc, would not intervene, and the UK Gov at the time was too scared of being called "racist colonists" to do anything about it.

Oh, and don't bring up "Oil" because there are assorted mineral deposits in the country which many governments would love to get their hands on.

tony draper
24th Aug 2011, 15:53
Apparently 24 hour News Camera Teams are on their way up to the Orkneys because rumor has it there are two or three people up there they have not yet asked.
"Where do you think Gadaffi is now"?

24th Aug 2011, 16:32
Looks like job done - the NATO travelling roadshow can now de-camp to the eatern Med to deal the next item in its in-tray.

24th Aug 2011, 16:36
Local news / website reported a rumour that Gadaffi has sneaked out to Zimbabwe, a place that does not recognize the international court in Den Haag, mad BOB would probably welcome him with open arms. Another possibility is Nicaragua according to the same website.

24th Aug 2011, 18:52
Zim is a possibility, especially as he did give Mugabe support in the past (Mugabe was so grateful it left Gaddafi with 20 properties there) BUT the small matter of the Libyan Ambassador raising the "new" Libyan flag and denouncing Gaddafi may be an issue.

24th Aug 2011, 22:10
Because Rhodesia Bob wasn't a state sponsor of terrorism, meaning that NATO, etc, would not intervene, and the UK Gov at the time was too scared of being called "racist colonists" to do anything about it.

indeed. mugabe maybe a ruthless despot, but he isnt stupid. he very cleverly accused Tsvangerai of being a stooge for the west and routinely makes public claims of the west (britain) being the white oppressor of zimbabwe and the cause of zimbabwe's woes (mugabe does irony well), so any uinvervention by the west (britain or it's allies, therefore enforces his position within the ZANU-PF supporters and the AU.

the other thing with intervention in zim is where exactly does one base a platform. it's a landlocked country, so that's a sea based platform out and and land based platforms would require the support of a nighbouring nation overflight of military aircraft would require either the UK busting international conventions on soverignty of airspace or again, the support of other nations to unseat mad bob.

while other nations may be distasteful of mad bob and what he has done to his own people, the AU cant let mugabe draw them iand the rest of africa into dispute. so the people of zimbabwe suffer at the hands of the other AU nations.

Meanwhile, the AU appointed Mugabe as one of the mediators on the Ivory Coast problems (29.1.2011)

The African Union decided to appoint Mugabe and a panel of leaders to join Prime Minister Raila Odinga in the Ivory Coast crisis.
The panel includes Presidents Jacob Zuma (South Africa), Jonathan Goodluck (Nigeria), Robert Mugabe (Zimbabwe) and the President of Mauritania among others and Ping said the mediation already undertaken by Kenyan Prime Minister Raila Odinga was part of the building stones towards achieving a realizable goal of peace in Ivory Coast.

meanwhile, back at the veld...

During the mounting violence of Libya’s revolution, South African President Jacob Zuma twice travelled to Tripoli to talk ceasefire with Muammar Gaddafi on behalf of the African Union. Both times Zuma came away praising the success of the summits and touting Gaddafi’s willingness to follow the AU’s roadmap to peace.
Only problem was that the rebel leaders swiftly rejected the African Union plan because it did not require Gaddafi to leave power.

Solid Rust Twotter
25th Aug 2011, 08:57
Mentioned on Sky that SA is being difficult about funds being unfrozen to be used by the rebels. Appears it's all about keeping it safe for Brother Leader.

Quelle surprise!

tony draper
25th Aug 2011, 10:59
Bankers must love having frozen assets in their mitts,wonder how much of it has been trousered by the pinstriped ringpieces?

25th Aug 2011, 14:59
Tut, Tut Capt Drapes. How can you say something like that?

You could give people the wrong impression.
They need wheelbarrows, NOT trousers!!!

25th Aug 2011, 15:51
Appears it's all about keeping it safe for Brother Leader

Maybe, although there's also the matter of keeping Uncle Bob onside lest he lest unleash a tide of refugees across the border.

SA and some other African nations aren't exactly covering themselves in glory on this one.

Effluent Man
26th Aug 2011, 10:20
Seeing the government in waiting dashing around in their Hi lux's shooting up at Allah's big tent in the sky for all they are worth the question raises itself in the mind of this world weary old cynic: What happens when the cash gets released?

I think we are about to see a wave of Libyan Nouveau Riche flooding the more expensive parts of the world Dubai,Monte Carlo,Kensington&Chelsea.

Interesting item on R4 yesterday.Libya is the best educated and most literate country in Africa (OK low bar I know)It seems that The Colonel actually spent some of the wealth on his people.In contrast with places nearer home I could mention.I think we've been duped...again.

26th Aug 2011, 16:30
Gaddafi used the "divide and conquer" strategy, and when it wasn't enough -especially over the last few years- he poured some money on the tribes to keep them quiet. Obviously that stops working one day.

Seriously now, I hear commercial aircraft were destroyed -possibly some Airbuses- at Tripoli. Anyone seen more details on this?

26th Aug 2011, 17:54
Libya is the best educated and most literate country in Africa

That's probably where the seeds of unrest were sown.

27th Aug 2011, 03:14
Order: Kill Non-Mainstream Reporters in Libya. (http://m.examiner.com/examiner/pm_60959/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=KScgXRV2)

Is this actually true?

27th Aug 2011, 03:51
Is this actually true?
probally partially, one must remember that our values are our own, they are not every one else's. Though we may think it its alright for an opposing view, or even down right hostile view, not every one else does.

Hence its unlikely, though not impossible any western governments would sanction it. The rebels, or like minded government that support them might have no qualms about topping them.

27th Aug 2011, 05:26

Is this actually true?

Just skimming the actual article that your link links to show that it is nothing more than hysteria-filled bollocks.

For example:-

In his August 23 report, DeBar wrote:

"The manufacture of events in Libya has been underway since the lead-up to the US-led invasion,

Maybe you can tell us all when the US LED AN INVASION INTO LIBYA!!!


Solid Rust Twotter
27th Aug 2011, 07:18
From the perspective of those who could find themselves in a similar position if they get their hands too deep in the till and their cash cow dries up...

West advancing selfish interests: Mbeki

2011-08-26 22:53

Cape Town - Western powers were determined to bring about regime change in Libya regardless of the cost to that country, former president Thabo Mbeki said on Friday.

In a speech to students at Stellenbosch University, delivered in his capacity as patron of the Thabo Mbeki Foundation, he said the major Western powers had intervened in Libya to "advance their selfish interests".

They had used the United Nations Security Council, which, in March this year, adopted a resolution to, among other things, enforce a no-fly zone over Libya and take all necessary measures to protect civilians, to achieve this.

Mbeki said: "They were and are bent on regime-change in Libya, regardless of the cost to this African country, intent to produce a political outcome which would serve their interests."

Citing a report on Libya compiled by the Brussels-based International Crisis Group, he said the ICG had been "absolutely correct" in its assessment that the insistence on Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's departure as a pre-condition for negotiations would prolong the fighting.

"To insist that he both leave the country and face trial in the International Criminal Court is virtually to ensure that he will stay in Libya to the bitter end and go down fighting," Mbeki quoted.


He then told the students: "Bitter facts on the ground, showing the loss of African lives and the destruction of property in Libya, demonstrate that the ICG was absolutely correct.

"The naked reality is not that the Western powers did not hear what the ICG said. Rather, they heard but did not want to listen to anything informed by the objective to address the real interests of the African people of Libya."

Mbeki also quoted from an article in The Boston Globe newspaper in April this year, which suggested the United States had entered into military action in Libya under "false pretences" and that President Barack Obama had "grossly exaggerated" the humanitarian threat to justify such action.

He also quoted veteran Guardian correspondent Jonathan Steele, who earlier this month had said: "Thanks to its crucial role in tipping the military scales in Libya, Nato and the rebels are inextricably linked.

"Gaddafi had few supporters in the Arab world, but there is a justified perception on the Arab street that the rebels are over-reliant on Western support and that the overriding Western motive is access to Libya's oil... ."

Mbeki encouraged students to read about and understand what had happened in Libya, as well in Egypt and Tunisia.

Through this, they would be "inspired by what your peers have done in Tunisia and Egypt, who took the lead in the popular uprisings in their countries, which have served to advance the African democratic revolution", he said.

AU not supporting rebel government: Zuma

August 26 2011 at 09:38pm

The African Union will not yet recognise Libyan rebels as the new government of Libya, South African President Jacob Zuma said Friday, rejecting calls for recognition from Libyan rebel leaders.

Zuma called for an immediate cease-fire and said the Libyan capital of Tripoli was not yet under full rebel control. He spoke as AU leaders met in the Ethiopian capital to discuss the next action they should take regarding Libya. Many African nations have long ties with Col. Muammar Gaddafi and the AU has had difficulty taking a unanimous stand.

“Fighting is still going on. That is the reality,” said Zuma, who chairs the AU committee on Libya. “We can't say this is a legitimate (government) now.”

He said the AU did not rule out pro- or anti-Gaddafi forces from taking part in a future Libyan government. African countries like Ethiopia and Nigeria that already recognised the rebels were free to do so and also support the AU position, he said.

The U.N. has urged African leaders to “encourage new leadership” in Libya.

“We must help the country's new leaders to establish an effective, legitimate government that represents and speaks for all the country's diverse people,” U.N. deputy secretary general Asha Rose Migiro told AU leaders.

Earlier in the day, Mahmoud Jibril, the head of the rebel National Transitional Council, called for recognition from the AU and the urgent release of frozen Libyan assets, saying the government could face a “legitimacy crisis” if the Libyan people's demands are not met.

The Libyan opposition is setting up an interim government in the capital of Tripoli despite ongoing street battles. They hold almost all of the country and have already been recognised as the legitimate authority by most of the world.

Now the opposition says it urgently needs at least $5 billion in frozen assets to pay state salaries and maintain services in Libya, including areas still under Gaddafi control. Funds are also needed for an army and a police force to restore order and confiscate arms, he said.

“If the services expected by the citizens are not met, we may be faced with a legitimacy crisis,” Jibril said at a joint news conference with Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu.

Jibril was in Turkey to attend a meeting of the so-called “Contact Group” of some 30 countries leading efforts to stabilise Libya.

The U.S. and South Africa reached a deal Thursday that will release $1.5 billion in frozen Libyan assets in American banks which the U.S. is earmarking for the cash-strapped rebels.

South Africa had blocked agreement in the Security Council committee monitoring sanctions against Libya on unfreezing the $1.5 billion in U.S. banks over concerns that it implied recognition of the Council. South Africa, the AU and the U.N. have not recognised the rebel government.

Jibril said he hoped a rebel representative would soon take up the country's seat at the U.N.

Analysts estimate that as much as $110 billion is frozen in banks worldwide. Several European nations are also seeking to release funds, including Britain, France and Italy, which announced Thursday it wants to release $505 million for the rebels.

“The waving of the new flag, international recognition and financial support are the three pillars for a sovereign Libya,” Turkish minister Davutoglu said. -


27th Aug 2011, 16:03
Video (http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/forums/video-aircraft-burn-in-triploli-78226.aspx)

This is the burnt out wreck of a presidential plane A300-600. 5A-IAY, former Amiri aircraft. There is an Antonov 124 parked at the end of the line, i am not sure where the other one is, I saw video of Antanov ? burnt out but not sure if it is the other. There are only 14 or 15 of these in the world and Libya has 2 of them. I heard a total of 5 aircraft destroyed.