Red Arrows Jet Crash

[EGGP]

Sky are reporting a reds jet down near Bournemouth:(

[TUGNBAR]

Sky News reporting aircraft down near Bournemouth!

[EGGP]

more info on another forum

View topic - Red arrow down (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=36448)

[Stuff]

Fingers crossed for the pilot.

BBC News reporting that they have been asked to stop filming.

[OmegaV6]

Little news at present ... lets hope no one hurt ..

Red Arrow Crashes In Bournemouth As Annual Air Festival Takes Place | UK News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16053735)

[Lew747]

BBC News - Red Arrow crashes during Bournemouth Air Festival. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14602900)

[TaranisAttack]

Damn! Hopefully they are all ok :eek:

Their performance was impressive though, so thumbs up to them for that :ok:

[airsmiles]

The Bournemouth Enthusiast Group report it was near Throop Mill while preparing to land after the display.

[Wander00]

1. Hope the pilot is OK
2. A little odd asking BBC to stop filming (Who asked, on what grounds?). In any case, all the private video cameras will still be filming, so why (apparently) blinker the Beeb?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

BBC says: "BBC South Today producer Martin Webster said it was thought to be the RED 4 that crashed in an open area at Throop village, near the Castlepoint shopping centre."

[Stuff]

From the lack of information that BBC News is getting from their man at the airport it seems that the incident happened out of sight of the cameras anyway.

[TaranisAttack]

2. A little odd asking BBC to stop filming (Who asked, on what grounds?). In any case, all the private video cameras will still be filming, so why (apparently) blinker the Beeb

Might not be the case.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Latest rumour says it was Red4 and pilot banged out..

[742-xx]

Sky news saying that dog walkers pulled the pilot from a river after he ejected.
Hope he/she is ok.

[goldeneaglepilot]

If it was Red4 the pilot is normally Jon Egging, I sincerly hope he managed to eject to safety.

[goldeneaglepilot]

BBC news have reported the aircraft as Red4 - the NORMAL pilots name is published on various websites, including the MOD website, it's not a secret. There is NOTHING to say that today he was the pilot of Red4...

[cldrvr]

The guy's name is public knowledge and widely reported.

[Flying Serpent]

BBC South Today producer Martin Webster said the plane was thought to have crashed in an open area at Throop village, near the Castlepoint shopping centre.
Shaun Spencer-Perkins, who witnessed the crash from Throop Mill, said: "I heard a rushing sound and I saw a plane about 15m above the ground racing across the fields.
"It impacted and bounced across the field, made it across the river.
"Members of the public jumped into the water to search for the cockpit.
"We waved down the helicopter, I took off my son's orange jacket and my wife's red jumper to get the attention of the helicopter."


BBC News - Red Arrow crashes during Bournemouth Air Festival (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14602900)

Unbelievably the Daily Fail is even naming the pilot...:ugh: before official confirmation.

[DarkSoldier]

lay off the man, this is information that any person would have freely been able to obtain from the Red Arrows own website, it's not like it's insider information which he is divulging

[Gulf4uk]

shocking Reporting BBC and SKY saying completly differant versions

what is being Reported on Other source from near location is Dog Walkers helped Pilot Out of a River , that came from Locals again just a rumour so far

[Cabbage_Crate]

Darren Blakeman, who was watching the display, described what he saw: "We watched nine Red Arrows take off, then they did an approach from the south of the runway, they did a little display.
"After that display only eight of the airplanes landed and then there was a big siren went off at the airport, like an emergency sound, and there was a big yellow fire truck parked in the viewing area and then that rushed off with its blue lights going.
"From my scene here I can see a police helicopter and a coastguard helicopter and they're hovering in the air above the site."
A Ministry of Defence spokesman said: "We can confirm that we are aware of an incident involving one of the Red Arrows and we are investigating."

[Blue2Two]

I totally agree... that anyone making statements about the well being of one our nations much revered raf pilots is NOT appropriate, especially as there is no official statement in the press...

Whilst this is a rumour network, it should be used in a respecful and ethical way, not to spread unfounded gossip, even if it were true... NO congratulations to anyone being first to report on such an event.

This statement should be treated with the contempt it deserves... Totaly ignorant statement and the user should be removed from the forum before he or she says anything else that offends our nations finest.

"Better to remain silent and thought a fool, rather than open ones mouth and confirm it"

[Postman Plod]

Thanks Jeepys - I understand the feeling of wanting to share, but given the audience its sometimes safer not to yet.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Come on guys. THIS is a pro forum and we do not expect wild speculation or, preferably, NONE at all. The forum is well read and some will take it for granted that we all know what we are talking about. That is not the case.

Facts first and foremost please - before any other posts. Thanks.

[757_Driver]

IF a significant part the airport fire cover is at the crash site then the airport will be below the required fire cover and will therefore be closed for some considerable time

BBC are showing footage. It went down during / after the 'break' to land - looks like they did a pass over the airfiled in V formation then broke to land - the 2nd aircraft to break just went down during the turn. It was still generating smoke which would suggest the engine was still running as I beleive the smoke is generrated using the heat of the engine exhaust - however that doens't show wether the engine was generating decent thrust or not - just that the exaust was hot. However I'm not going to speculate at this point - merely pointing out what is evident from watching the footage
Unfortunately no seat or chute was evident in the footage.
Doesn't look too good i'm afraid.

[Dawdler]

what is being Reported on Other source from near location is Dog Walkers helped Pilot Out of a River , that came from Locals again just a rumour so far
BBC has just broadcast an audio from an eye witness saying that people did in fact jump into the water to find the cockpit, but there was no statement of what they found as the eyewitnes went further along the debris-field.

[eireoflot82]

Red Arrow Crashes In Bournemouth As Annual Air Festival Takes Place | UK News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/home/article/16053735)

Some eyewitness accounts and photo.

[TaranisAttack]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/20/article-2028228-0D80E42000000578-453_468x267.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/20/article-2028228-0D80B27B00000578-242_468x286.jpg

what tosh, the unfortunate crew of this aircraft, is NOT public property, and deserves the right, and dignity for us all to wait, and behave like adults. Let's wait until an official statement. The crew do put themselves into the public eye, because they are the public face of the RAF, but in times like this, does not give you or others the rights to intrudehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/bah.gif:=http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifFeel free to complain to the daily mail as they were cited by the member as the source for the aircraft number. An unrelated rumour about the condition of the pilot was posted by a member, but without a media source, and is a separate issue. Lets not start mixing the two.

[Acklington]

Footage now on BBC website BBC News - Red Arrow crashes during Bournemouth Air Festival (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14602900)

[Wander00]

Nevertheless, there are 9 families biting their nails to the quicks at the moment. Common courtesy demands, rumour forum or not, that in these circumstances we lay off speculating until there is an official announcement of the state of the pilot and, later on, the cause(s) of the accident. Sound like a pompous git, I know, but that is my view for what it is worth.

[bakerpictures]

From that BBC footage, would I be right in thinking the loss was immediately after their Break to Land?

My thoughts with RAFAT, their families and friends.

Richard Baker.

[pullbuoy]

From the amateur footage on the BBC, the second aircraft to break to the right enters a shallow dive, disappears from view behind buildings and is clearly very low. White smoke is still 'on' and the engine exhaust appears normal. If this footage is indeed that of the aircraft that has gone down, it appears serviceable until the very last second. Any ejection is likely to have been almost coincident with impact. Many of you will recall that the Reds have pulled off miraculous escapes in similar circumstances and fingers crossed for another such escape today. However, neither eyewitness so far interviewed reports the sound or sight of an ejection.

[Jamie-Southend]

This from the local online rag, "eye witness" claims to have been third on scene.

Red Arrow crashes near Bournemouth Airport after display at Bournemouth Air Festival (From Bournemouth Echo) (http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/9207595.UPDATED__Red_Arrow_crashes_near_Bournemouth_Airport/)

[TaranisAttack]

From the amateur footage on the BBC, the second aircraft to break to the right enters a shallow dive, disappears from view behind buildings and is clearly very low. White smoke is still 'on' and the engine exhaust appears normal. If this footage is indeed that of the aircraft that has gone down, it appears serviceable until the very last second. Any ejection is likely to have been almost coincident with impact. Many of you will recall that the Reds have pulled off miraculous escapes in similar circumstances and fingers crossed for another such escape today. However, neither eyewitness so far interviewed reports the sound or sight of an ejection

True, but the eyewitness may not have necessarily have been able to identify the ejected pilot in the sky, especially if he was low when he ejected. It's difficult to say unless we actually see it take place.

[monkeytennis]

Local news (Calendar here in Yorkshire) reporting fatality, ITN saying condition unknown.

[Defruiter]

MOD statement to be released sometime in the next hour according to the BBC.

[OmegaV6]

Somewhat speculative BBF .... especially as several reports state that the pilot put out a Mayday call.

Why don't we wait until some facts are KNOWN before the guessing starts ???

Conflicting reports about the pilot in the media storm .... still hoping he's OK ..

[MPN11]

I'll wait for MoD. Some faults, but it tends to deal in facts most of the time. ;)

[LukeA346]

The last I heard from Sky news was "Pilot seriously injured".

[WILCO.XMG]

Wouldnt worry about that scarmongering sorry excuse for a newspaper the mail.

However from the footage i seen no sign of ejections.

Wait and hope for the best.

[jumpseater]

I agree with LHF, hold fire until there is official MOD or Police confirmation, or BBC,

The BBC news team is as bad as any other for misquoting and accuracy, the official channels are the only reliable sources. Three hours on and no suggestion from official sources of a survivor doesn't bode well.

[TaranisAttack]

It seems to be confirmed in the media. Names are being withheld however.

Red Arrows pilot killed in crash near Bournemouth Airport after festival display | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2028228/Red-Arrows-pilot-killed-crash-near-Bournemouth-Airport-festival-display.html)

[Defruiter]

According to the Bournemouth Air Festival on social networking sites:
The MOD have confirmed the death of Flight Lieutenant Jon Egging of the Royal Air Force Aerobatics Team, The Red Arrows. Bournemouth Borough Council and Bournemouth Air Festival will issue a statement shortly.

[dhc1chippymunk]

MoD and Police have confirmed Flt Lt Jon Egging has been killed.

[infrequentflyer789]

According to the Bournemouth Air Festival on social networking sites:
The MOD have confirmed the death of Flight Lieutenant Jon Egging of the Royal Air Force Aerobatics Team, The Red Arrows. Bournemouth Borough Council and Bournemouth Air Festival will issue a statement shortly.

BBC article has also changed in the last minute or so to report that pilot died and that MOD has confirmed. Looks like this is official, not speculation.
:sad:

[WILCO.XMG]

BBC confirming death.

:sad:

[tarantonight]

One and All,

I have been monitoring this Thread since the outset and have the following to point out:

The lack of information initially re the pilot did not look good and the sad news we now have was inevitable I think. A great loss.

I hope those of you above who have posted opinions and 'facts' are ashamed of yourselves.

The deceased man was a Red, which was his job - an honour in itself. He was also no doubt a family man - I have not looked so do not know any details. For those I have mentioned above, think of this:

His father /mother / wife / son /daughter etc, happen to be looking at this site when they see the thread pop up. They would probably then be hit with all the emotions of such news. Is it..........Isn't it...............followed by the knock on the door. Life changing.

Before you post w*&%y comments, consider the effect on the other people.

Think about it.


TN:ugh:

[skua]

To clarify, afaik, Op Minimise means no Comms until NOK have been informed, which I sincerely hope they have been by now. Fly high Red4.

[cazatou]

Speculation is inevitable - but is best held in check whilst the Inquiry into the tragedy is conducted. There are numerous possibilities as to the reason for this tragedy and it will take many months to ascertain which of those possibilities could be probabilities or potential causes. I would expect that it will be at least a year before a probable cause could be identified.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

As one who once served in the RAF and who has been a member of a Board of Inquiry (that is the 3-person team convened to investigate Service accidents), I would join the voices of restraint on here. The simple truth is that no one knows what happened yet, and it is appropriate such a short time after the death of one of the RAF's finest young men to be sensitive to his family and the countless people close to the Red Arrows who will have been devastated by this tragic event. I fully understand the natural desire of people to know, and indeed the massive public interest in such a high-profile event, but everyone has to be allowed a period of privacy for even a short time at a time like this. If we have genuine news or insight, that is great - but surely it can wait for a day or so as a mark of respect.

From recollection, it is the duty of the President of the Board to issue a 48-hour signal which will outline the initial, but not binding view, of what actually happened. That may just say, 'Cause Undetermined'. If the military Board of Inquiry do not know, then the chances of anyone on here knowing more would seem slight to me.

[suzukiraider]

I was on the airfield and watched the aircraft do there run and break as usual. Red 4 pulled right as usual but it then looked as if he fails to pull out of the bank and lost altitude. I lost him behind the trees at about 50 feet after he made no obvious attitude correction.
He did not make any radio calls. The calls came from another red arrows pilot. After a few seconds red 1 made a call on the civilian channel calling a Mayday for the Reds. He then asked his crew on their private frequency if anyone spotted were it went in and one replied "there is wreckage in the river boss".
Sad day,
RIP Jon.

[Sven Sixtoo]

Suzukiraider

Thank you for an accurate report

[Love_joy]

I had the honor of a day with the Reds back in Feb this year, and spend some time chatting with Flt Lt. Jon Egging.

I had expected the reds to be the ultimate 'Nigels', but they were the soundest, nicest, most passionate people I've met so far in this business.

This news has knocked me back a bit, he was such a good bloke. The aviation world is a poorer place.

Rest in Peace

[vulcanised]

A little bit moe info here

Crash pilot's wife watched air show - Yahoo! (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/red-arrow-crashes-air-display-135527937.html)

[frangatang]

Was his father a Phil Egging, training captain in BA, who was a top bloke?

[Stop Stop Stop]

Terribly sad. I watched the display at Bournemouth this afternoon and was impressed. We were unaware of the tragedy until later. Condolences to the family of the pilot and the Reds and Blues of the RAF Aerobatic Team.

Group Captain Simon Blake said on Sky News that the team will be grounded until the enquiry and it is too early to say if the team will be displaying at all for the remainder of the season.

We now have to wait for the enquiry to ascertain what happened. It is pointless speculating on the cause until the facts emerge.

[OneFifty]

BBC news earlier referred to the Red Arrows as a 'RAF regiment'... :ugh::=

[Don't sink]

My thoughts of course are with Jon Egging's family.

Several things here on these threads and the Daily Mail/Channel4/google news serve to really annoy me....please stop calling the finest aerobatic display team in the world a "stunt" team.

The Telegragh and others say Jon is the first Red Arrows fatality in 33 years...this does a great dis-service to the likes of Flt Lt Neil "Clachy" MacClachlan sadly killed while with the Reds in 1988, another great pilot and friend to those that new him.

[Henry09]

Well, I hope people on PPRuNe have learned a thing or two from this tragedy.

KiloNovember52
Friend at Bournemouth texted to say pilot ejected ok.

I hope you have re-texted your friend and told them using suitable expletives what a 'fool' they are. If the message is suitably abrasive you may also consider reading it out aloud whilst staring in to the bathroom mirror.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

Latest rumour says it was Red4 and pilot banged out..

You should really know better.

For the person asking what Op Minimise was, then yes, it would be stopping all communications as quickly as possible. No mobile calls, no calls off the Squadron or in to the Sqn etc etc, all in a bid to ensure that the potential for even a small amount of misinformation is at the absolute minimum. The effects on family members of misinformation that leads them to believe one thing when another is the truth can add dramatically to the devastation that may await.

Perhaps after seeing yet another example of folks on here feeling the need to be first to post with their 'breaking news, world exclusive', PPRuNe ought to consider imposing an Op Minimise on similar events in the future. Perhaps simply a thread with the first news report of an occurrence with a statement that further 'official press releases' will be added as they are made available to the media, the thread being locked and unavailable for any input other than those of the forum moderator. After the official statements have been released then I guess it's then just back to open season for everyone to wildly speculate upon. I am sure we could all display the dignity of waiting a few hours whilst facts are gathered and family members are informed either way, rather than wanting to feel the petty self satisfaction of thinking we got the first 'breaking news exclusive post' on the forum.

[Load Toad]

I can understand your anger but there were reports (speculative or otherwise) that the pilot had ejected, I think one saying the pilot had been pulled from a river....a witness may see a part or debris in the sky & think it was an ejection; whatever.
I'd agree that when these accidents occur within reason the thread needs at least heavy policing to stop the comments that only add to speculation & grief.

[Henry09]

Load Toad

I didn't mean to convey anger, if I did I apologise. I was good friends with a family, the husband of whom was involved in a mid-air. His wife was told her husband was ok, in Hospital, but sadly the other Sqn colleague involved had died. 40 minutes later she had a knock at the door informing her there had been a terrible mix up and that they had got it the wrong way around. Her husband was in fact dead (the other woman now 40 minutes in to initial grief being told her husband is in fact alive). The woman says that the pain and intensity of that moment she was told, 'there has been a mistake, he is not alive, he is the one that's dead', lives with her to this day.

I suppose my point is that the threads should not need heavy policing on these occasions. We should act responsibly.

[White Knight]

Perhaps simply a thread with the first news report of an occurrence with a statement that further 'official press releases' will be added as they are made available to the media, the thread being locked and unavailable for any input other than those of the forum moderator.

Sorry fellah but I disagree very strongly with you! Sad though these accidents are; this is still a 'rumours' forum... Period:=

Since the Wright-Flyer first got off the ground at KittyHawk, people - both experts and laymen - have been gossiping, speculating, arguing about all things related to aviation, especially accidents! It is human nature.

I think some of you should come down off your high horses here:rolleyes: I seriously doubt very much that relatives of the deceased are really going to get the news for the first time from PPRUNE! And what if they do? Is it any different from reading about it on the Beeb's website? Maybe we should all stop breathing because the air may be contaminated!

[swh]

Henry09,

Not all ejections are injury free or successful. Some of the news stories published stated the pilot did eject however suffered serious injuries. The police statement to the media said the pilot was not with the aircraft, and they could not confirm or otherwise if the pilot had attempted to eject.

We need to let the MoD to get on with their investigation to piece together what exactly happened.

Sad day all round.

:sad:

[cats_five]

...
The Telegragh and others say Jon is the first Red Arrows fatality in 33 years...this does a great dis-service to the likes of Flt Lt Neil "Clachy" MacClachlan sadly killed while with the Reds in 1988, another great pilot and friend to those that new him.

I believe the incident you refer to happened during practise and that this is the first fatality during a display flight.

[NigelOnDraft]

Don't whinge at me, I merely copied something from a news web site in the hope that it was correct. The first part was.I would whinge at you HD since you are (were), IMHO, a respected poster here.

What was evident yesterday that a level of censorship was going on by the press, no doubt via strings being pulled behind the scenes. When the outcome and name were confirmed by the MoD, the Sky News reporter stated (and he was on scene) they were aware from an early stage the outcome, but had been asked (and largely obeyed) keeping quiet.

Your post (1447) states Latest rumour says it was Red4 and pilot banged out.. which is unattributed, and I, amongst others, placed undue weight on you passing on unsubstantiated tattle.

Your earlier post was attributed BBC says: "BBC South Today producer Martin Webster said it was thought to be the RED 4 that crashed in an open area at Throop village, near the Castlepoint shopping centre." but still repeated details later withdrawn from all press accounts. However, it was preserved here.

Hopefully lesson (as has been learnt countless times) is:
1. Why the rush to be the one to post potentially devastating news to a family, when there is a chance you get caught out later (as you have)? It has hardly added to your credibility, and for me, destroyed what you had.
2. If there is something in a news link, then provide the link - do not cut'n'paste the contents. Then if there is a mistake, the provider can correct it (or be persuaded to withdraw it), and you are protected.

NoD

[Exascot]

I am not trying to speculate but I think that initial reports were a little hasty and the press trying to get to the facts too soon.

Loose Rivets says: Two reports however, seem to conflict: Civilians diving to reach the cockpit. And. Thrown from the aircraft.

From the DT:

"Finlay and I ran across the field. The Red Arrow was on the bank. We jumped into the water, found the ejector seat, pulled it up, but it was clean – no-one in it.

"I swam across the river and saw the parachute, and that's where I found him.

"He was near a steep bank, in deep water. He was very badly injured, dead.


I think that the latter gives a more accurate report. I am no expert on bang seats (only JPs). Perhaps a late exit, or could the seat have been fired on impact, is this possible?

[Exascot]

I may have answered my own question:

21st March 1984
RAF Hawk T.1 XX251 CFS
Red Arrows
RAF Akrotiri Cyprus Hit the ground during display practice at Akrotiri, Cyprus
The impact forced the ejection seat through the canopy and deployed the chute dragging the pilot out
Flight Lieutenant Chris Hurst Inadvertent ejection

[XV490]

In contrast to some of the exchanges in this thread, how very dignified were the words of eulogy of Dr Emma Egging, who had watched her husband earlier during the Bournemouth display. And how magnanimous of her to comment publicly so soon after the tragedy.

[4468]

The point about repeating 'speculation' regarding the cause of any accident, or indeed the condition of those involved is not that it shows lack of respect for potential casualties, but that however we dress it up, it shows utter contempt for their loved ones.

They will be searching high and low for any snippet of information, and will invest massive emotion in whatever they find. They will come here! Put yourselves in their position, because one day this situation just may come to visit you! Then you may not wish people to be quite so 'gung ho'!

This appears to be a classic situation of the facts being clear at an early stage, and in the full glare of our nations media. But the laborious process of informing relatives takes time. They are the only people who deserve timely and accurate information! To many of us it is simply 'news'. To the family these are moments they will remember, with pain, for the rest of their lives.

Do YOU really want to be the one adding to that pain? Think twice in future.

I agree that the comments of Dr Emma Egging were humbling in the extreme. our only thoughts now should be with her, and all those most closely involved. There are people now tasked with discovering the cause of this tragic accident. How about, we just let them get on with it eh? Now that would be a fitting tribute.

[Joshilini]

I don't intend to rumour-monger, but the point is that this is a rumour site! As such, many members will post rumours.... and conjecture, and snippets of information!

Do you remember the BA036 Heathrow emergency landing? A certain captain got ****** over because of rumours that turned out to be completely untrue in the end. Instead of receiving the praise he really deserved, he was left defending himself every day to his colleagues and friends.

A little speculation (based on the facts) can be fine but it usually develops into wild theories which the media pick up on and report to the general public as "words from aviation experts".

RIP J Egging

[Mrmungus]

I may have answered my own question:

Quote:
21st March 1984
RAF Hawk T.1 XX251 CFS
Red Arrows
RAF Akrotiri Cyprus Hit the ground during display practice at Akrotiri, Cyprus
The impact forced the ejection seat through the canopy and deployed the chute dragging the pilot out
Flight Lieutenant Chris Hurst Inadvertent ejection


I thought that was Dick Lotinga

[Idle Reverse]

Quote:
21st March 1984
RAF Hawk T.1 XX251 CFS
Red Arrows
RAF Akrotiri Cyprus Hit the ground during display practice at Akrotiri, Cyprus
The impact forced the ejection seat through the canopy and deployed the chute dragging the pilot out
Flight Lieutenant Chris Hurst Inadvertent ejection


"I thought that was Dick Lotinga"

Nope. Definitely Curly Hurst. :=

[Mrmungus]

Nope. Definitely Curly Hurst.

Many thanks.
Apologies to Dick and his reputation.

[middleground]

Quote from telegraph online.

Nick Woods, 36, told how he discovered the pilot's body in the Stour.
Mr Woods was enjoying a barbecue with his family about 300 yards from the river. The dozen or so family and friends, including his parents and his three-year old son Archie, heard the roar of the jet at about 1.50pm.
"It came in so low across the field. I could see it was in trouble," he said.
"I just shouted "Everybody inside!" because I didn't know how far it would spread when it crashed.
"The next moment my friend Finlay shouted 'He's down!'
"It just sounded like an explosion when it hit – no flames but a huge ripping sound. I saw debris flying in the air.
"Finlay and I ran across the field. The Red Arrow was on the bank. We jumped into the water, found the ejector seat, pulled it up, but it was clean – no-one in it.
"I swam across the river and saw the parachute, and that's where I found him.
"He was near a steep bank, in deep water. He was very badly injured, dead. I was pretty shaken.

For all those complaining about whats posted on this thread, be it fact, rumour, advice or opinion, if you don't like it go read another. People have a choice to write what the wish (within reason) on forums, and you have a choice what to read. This is a rumour site and as such rightly or wrongly rumours are posted on it. It appears all the posts about being which red turned out to be fact. Those of you telling us to not post this and don't quote that, why are you reading this thread other than to find out information. As for Journo's on this site pretty sure phone hacking is a better source of reliable info than PPRuNe.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The media always tend to report the pilot avoiding habitation when there is a lot of about.
Having read an awful lot of accident reports as a Station Flight Safety Officer, the aircraft turned out to be already out of control in a large percentage of cases. This was for mechanical, aerodynamic or pilot incapacitation reasons.

On the other hand, there are examples of pilots self-sacrificially avoiding habitation, and indeed trying to unaware that a crippled aircraft was out of control. We certainly should assume Flt Lt Egging would have considered avoiding action till we know otherwise.

As others have stated, the initial report may well be able to determine whether he attempted ejection. We should wait for this.

RIP

[Exascot]

how very dignified were the words of eulogy of Dr Emma Egging

Absolutely, what a lady.

[TruBlu351]

WillDAQ....just to answer your question....

It is a possible theory, however the point of modern zero zero seats is that he should have had time to point the aircraft but still eject 'at the last moment'.

Modern ejection seats are way better than they used to be, but they still have their limitations. The zero zero is based on zero altitude and zero forward airspeed....but what still needs to be considered in the seat's "operating envelope" is the 3rd "zero" which is rate of descent or sink rate.

Just to paint an extreme, imagine being out of control & descending at 20,000 feet per minute, you'd need to eject well above the ground to allow the chute to open fully and give you a few swings before touching down......ie: if you pulled the handle just a few feet before the ground, it simply won't work.

That being said, the rate of descent in the posted video of the accident appears to be far from excessive.....which would allow a lowish ejection.

IMHO, I don't agree with the idea he intentionally rode it in to avoid built up areas.....if that was the case, you'd do your best, then at some point give it away....it all looked very benign.

best wishes to his family.

.......but, over to the investigators.

[Patty747400]

A pilot like him will never crash like this by a simple misjudgement. I can only see three scenarios:

G induced Loss of Consciousness (however, extremely unlikely for a Red)

A medical condition (can happen to any of us, any time)

Technical malfunction with flight controls

The Red has always been my favourite group. The tight formations kept in view of the crowd is poetry in the air.

RIP

[Jazz Hands]

With respect, some of you seem to be under the impression that "the media" and PPRune are two different things. They're not. They're sources of information distributed to a readership.

Those who fail to realise this will end up tying themselves in knots trying to justify their own speculation and guesswork while simultaneously condemning other outlets, like the BBC, who are doing their best to feed your curious minds, in a fluid situation, perhaps without the benefit of aerospace knowledge.

PPRune isn't separate from "the media". It's part of it. So practice what you're preaching, if you wouldn't mind.

[Mr Optimistic]

How much fuel would the aircraft be carrying typically at the end of a display ?

[Spanish Waltzer]

Patty - Not wishing to question your extensive knowledge of the causes of crashes but one scenario you haven't considered....maybe he tried to eject but the seat failed leaving him an unwitting passenger in the final stages of the flight. :(

Do these hawks have flight data recorders fitted?

SW

[athonite]

MEDIA PLEASE NOTE

This is cearly a tragic air accident, and the amateur and media speculation realy does not help.

Anyone from the media take on board what MOD, Air Investigators say, we simply do know what happened, and they have not stated the pilot concerned was a hero, he could have equally been neglegent, we simply do know know what happened. This 'Hero' thing has been generated by some of the less credible newspapers, but sadly the BBC are following this 'hero' story.

It is somewhat depressing when after almost every air accident the media claimed the pilot steered his aircraft away from housing. MEDIA PLEASE NOTE, its quite simple, in the event of a forced landing a pilot will look for an open area, that's common sense, the outcome is better in an open area, it's as simple as that, in terms of evacuation by parachute or an ejection seat, again if time permits, there will be consideration, as to where the airframe will end up, but sometimes there is little time to decide, that is generally why we dont fly aerobatics (NOT ACROBATIC, GYMNASTICS, STUNT FLYING OR TRICK FLYING OR OTHER MEDIA UNEDUCATED TERMS THE MEDIA USE) over built up areas, because, in the unlikely event of evacuation we dont want the abandoned airframe to hit dwellings.

Finally, Military pilots, and civilian pilots, train for all sorts of emergencies, but in reality when faced with an emergency, every situation is unique, there can be a combination of factors, it's a dynamic situation in real time when you need to do the best you can faced with an emergency, based on your training and flying experience.

Finally. no accident happens in isolation, any air accident always contains a number of factors, an no one factor can be attributed in isolation, and all pilots know, it's often 'all but the grace of god there go I'! Even the very best pilots can be victims of an error chain.

Clearly this Pilot was well qualified and experienced, but Let's leave it to the miltary accident investigators, out of respect to the Pilot's partner and family, rather than speculting.

[sharpend]

I can only add to the previous comment. In my 'incident', 15 Feb 83 (described in the London Gazette 9 May 83), also in a Hawk, the media said I stayed at the controls to avoid an old peoples home. Nothing was further from my mind even if I had been aware of such in the local area.

[athonite]

Yes and one of the media reports even suggested that the pilot was avoiding fishermen walkers on the river bank, of course we all know (pilots not jounalists) that is absurd!

[denlopviper]

just an observation for the video.

he was in a level turn and then it was almost like he stopped the backpressure on the stick...g loc or elevator failure

just observation from the video

[G-CPTN]

WRT 'zero zero' ejector seats, what about if the aircraft is inverted?

Some reports suggest that the tail was broken off and separated from the fuselage.

Another report (from a reliable source I believe) suggested that no correction appears to have made to the bank from the break:-
he fails to pull out of the bank and lost altitude. I lost him behind the trees at about 50 feet after he made no obvious attitude correction.
From:- http://www.pprune.org/6652362-post51.html

[stickstirrer]

Fuel at the end of a display: 180-250 kgs approx depending upon the diversion being used.
Condolences to family, friends and team mates, terribly terribly sad for all.
Guessing at the causes of an accident is speculation, which is happening in every crewroom in the Air Force and it's what aircrew do....but 'naming' of a victim in a public forum, even by formation position, before the MOD statement (allowing time for kin inform) always has been wrong. Full stop.
Repeating unofficial sources on here about possible victim(s), formation position or callsigns is gossip and not professional.....wrong. Full stop.
I have been closely involved in 3 similar situations and had the unfortunate job of meeting and informing a wife of a similar tragedy. Luckily the Stn Cdr and myself were the first people to meet her as she arrived to pick up her husband and give her the very sad news, ( notwithstanding that someone had tipped off the local radio with a name within minutes of the crash) ...In another fatal, formation display incident people did not to banter names around thank goodness, which was extremely important since the groundcrew servicing and flying in the two aircraft involved had swapped their postions and were not in their traditional seats..It could have resulted in a similar position to the midair cock up referred to earlier, which I remember well. If you have ever been close to families who have lost a member you would understand the need for discipline and discretion in these circumstance. I fully support the suggestion that the moderator adopts a cautious approach in similar future circumstances, as an earlier contributor so rightly said, 'Professional' should be our approach to all air matters.

[Danny2]

In order to save some of you the trouble of going into great detail about how incensed or outraged you are about the level of 'reporting' that goes on here after an accident, especially a high profile one such as this, please remember that for all the posts you see on this thread, there are at least 3-4 times as many that are deleted by the moderators, especially as the news is breaking/unfolding.

The problem we as moderators have is that there is an awful lot to trawl through, starting with the 'must be the first to post this breaking news' types followed by the 'must repeat what has already been posted because I can't be arsed to read what is already on there' types.

What then follows is the speculation, often based on little more than the fact that the poster has some vague connection to aviation, possibly an uncle who is a baggage loader at Wythenshaw Municipal. Then come the 'repeaters' who take some ignorant speculation that has already been reported elsewhere and repeat it here, thus starting a hamster wheel of chinese whispers which get repeated by lazy journos who trawl these threads and publish elsewhere which is then read by the 'repeaters' on here who then re-publish... and so on.

In the first hours of an unfolding event, the moderators are trying to to keep some semblance of order and sensibility. It is not easy because as they are reading and taking action on deleting or moving posts, new posts are being made and by the time they have managed to sort out the mess, a new mess has been created while they were sorting out the original one.

Yesterday, I had to close the site for ten minutes to prevent the flood of posts, the vast majority containing nothing new, whilst the original thread on R&N was merged with the one on the Mil forum and then all the RIP posts were extracted and merged into a new but separate thread. Once that was done, the job became a bit easier to manage but it was only thanks to the spread of mods around the globe due to residence or downroute that we managed to, more or less, keep on top of it all.

What is not needed is some of the more sanctimonious posts from those who think they can control the amount of news, rumour and gossip from doing the rounds. PPRuNe is not 'the media' as some would have you believe. PPRuNe is a rumour network which was designed from the start to take advantage of the new information age we find ourselves in. Whilst anyone can post on here, it is primarily for aviatiors, professionals, both military and civilian, in the main. The big words of warning that used to be at the bottom of every page have been removed by the new owners of this site but as a reminder, they used to warn that posts on here could be made by anyone, especially sciolists, so beware.

Even if we were to close the threads as they appear, it would only be a very short matter of time before someone else posted a new one. This is inevitable as it is human nature to want to know and to speculate.

For those who insist on shutting everything down until the board of inquiry has reported back, how come you are the only ones to decide what can and can't be discussed? Do you refrain from talking about the incident with your friends and family? I very much doubt it. And so, it is the same on here.

As moderators, we will try and keep the flow of information as reasonable as we can. We are not full time employees and we are not professional writers. However, we will attempt to keep the flow of information to reasonable debate and speculation. Many of us are ex-military and are fully aware of the sensitivity of information flow during the early stages of new reports, especially those involving casualties, possibly including friends or acquaintances. What we will not do is pull the plug and try and stop what comes naturally... discussion and speculation. For a few individuals to sanctimoniously demand that we shut all discussion down is both futile and insulting.

What we do as Mods is keep the flow going whilst at the same time delete some of the dross that accompanies the input. Yesterday, I read one article on the Sky website that mentioned a name of one of the Reds who took me up in a Hawk a few years ago and I reciprocated by taking him on the flight on the B744. Thankfully, the speculation was wrong and after a short while the name was removed from the reports. Thankfully, it was not repeated on PPRuNe.

So, whilst I and my fellow mods try and keep the various threads in some sort of order and along the track that the title suggests, we do not need the various 'PPRuNe police' turning this thread into a separate debate about the rights and wrongs of reporting what is read elsewhere. This thread is for debate about what happened and what went wrong. There is a separate thread for those who wish to express their condolences to Flt Lt Jon Eggings' family, friends, colleagues and the rest of the Red Arrows team.

Please don't waste your time telling the rest of us how outraged you are at some of the posts you manage to read on here. You should see some of the stuff we mods have had to read and pull. It outnumbers what is on here by about 4:1.

If you still feel the need to have a debate about the rights and wrongs of the news media frenzy that accompanies these sad and unfortunate incidents then start a new thread. To assist you, I have already posted one here: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/461427-how-about-list-journalists-rated-their-reporting-skills.html#post6653806

[Co-Captain]

Well said...

[Dengue_Dude]

Moderators displaying sensible moderation.

Faultless.

[stickstirrer]

Fair enough, well done in very difficult circumstances.

[middleground]

At this risk of keeping this on topic......Shocking i know.

Are they assigned to the same airframes or is it just get what you're given on the day? Also would it be right to assume that if the seat was found empty (as reported by a witness) an ejection must have occurred (demanded or otherwise)?

[GeeRam]

WRT 'zero zero' ejector seats, what about if the aircraft is inverted?

I assume you are referring to a certain photo taken by a member of the public that appeared on the net yesterday.....?

[G-CPTN]

I assume you are referring to a certain photo taken by a member of the public that appeared on the net yesterday.....? No - merely an extension of my lateral thinking.

(much of my working life was analysing failures and, in order to do this I frequently had to consider what ifs - even if they were 'unlikely')

[TipCap]

Well done Danny2

A sense of reason and explanation. Much appreciated

JohnW

[XV277]

I caught the incident when I switched on BBC news to get the 5 o'clock news yesterday. I saw the video, and my immediate thoughts were that it did not look good.

I have to give the BBC a pat on the back for that report for not having any idle speculation, or revealling anything they probably did know, until the MOD had officially announced that Flt Lt Egging had been killed.

I didn't watch much TV News after that.

[athonite]

Danny, well said, but while this is supposed to be a professional rumour network, it seems like anyone can access it, including people people have no flying experience, I'm not against PPL,s cabin crew, engineers, etc, but is it possible to filter out people without the ability to comment or totaly lacking in any aviation experience?

[WorkingHard]

Would your scheme filter out you then athonite since we know not what you do? just asking.

[ExRAFRadar]

I'm sorry but this cannot pass without comment:

"Danny, well said, but while this is supposed to be a professional rumour network, it seems like anyone can access it, including people people have no flying experience, I'm not against PPL,s cabin crew, engineers, etc, but is it possible to filter out people without the ability to comment or totaly lacking in any aviation experience?"

What do you suggest - minimum of 1000 hours on type related to the accident and scanned copies of your logbook ?

And who is the 'etc' Come on, give us a definitive list of those you feel worthy enough to contribute. And your reasons why.

Sorry, but these sort of posts pop up on here from time to time and really get my goat.

[Albert Driver]

I say bring in a "three strikes and then the mods pull your stripey handle thing" rule.

[PPRuNe Pop]

A good point RAFRAD.

"Danny, well said, but while this is supposed to be a professional rumour network, it seems like anyone can access it, including people people have no flying experience, I'm not against PPL,s cabin crew, engineers, etc, but is it possible to filter out people without the ability to comment or totaly lacking in any aviation experience?"

You have hit the button that is as irksome to us mods as it is to those who, like you, would like them to just go away. We have a lot of work to do chasing the village idiots over the site to rid PPRuNe of them - people who cannot string two words together. As for commenting on an accident such this I am afraid some feel they must. We put up with that until we spot those that are as far removed as its possible to be! As Danny says, we have been deleting daft and stupid posts at a ratio of 4:1 but I would put it higher.

In the next day or two we will probably hear more from the MoD so we have to wait.

In the meantime we wish you and our regulars well.

[Tashengurt]

Nice to see a simple explanation from a moderator. I certainly hadn't realised how 'hands on' they were in monitoring the site.
As someone who's right to comment is probably fairly tenuous I'd be sorry to see access limited.
I do agree that people should think before they post as it's obvious that friends and family can easily be affected by what is said here.

[Ali Barber]

Just to put some perspective on this. Some time ago, my wife was told (or at least inferred) that I had been killed in an accident in Germany. It came from official sources of a sort and not from any kind of social media, although they were few and far between back then. I do not believe that any potential grieving widow is going to be loitering on PPRune. I suspect she is more likely to be trying to contact people who might know the real answer to her concerns, which is what my wife did. The bottom line; this is a rumour network and not an official spokesman for the RAF or any other service. People with a passing aquaintance or even genuine friends will want to know the rumours but, if they are any kind of normal human being, they won't be phoning the next of kin to pass on those rumours. RIP

[dead_pan]

I have to give the BBC a pat on the back for that report for not having any idle speculation, or revealling anything they probably did know, until the MOD had officially announced that Flt Lt Egging had been killed.


Both the Beeb and Sky covered this tragedy pretty professionally IMO. The members of the public who were first on the scene no doubt divulged more information than they saw fit to broadcast. Credit where credit is due.

[dead_pan]

Personally I have no problem with people discussing the causes of accidents such as this - it goes on in real life, why not here? After all I'm sure it is not going to jeopardise the official investigation.

[general all rounder]

It is one thing to pontificate about possible causes of the accident on a rumour network - the issue here is naming the deceased before the NOK have been told. The mainstream media have a clear understanding with the MOD - they don't name the deceased until NOK and wider family have been informed and where possible don't name the unit (clearly not possible in this case). In any event, please let the professionals break the news to the NOK and the other members of the family in person before outing the identity on the internet, it is a simple matter of humanity.

The professional route takes time because unlike a rumour network, there has to be absolute certainty before telling someone their husband/wife/son/daughter has died and then there needs to be certainty that the right people are being told. Absolute certainty in the immediate aftermath of an incident such as this is in short supply. Finally, someone needs to be called in and put in best bib and tucker to go and break the news. This may be frustrating to those who need instant gratification but again I refer to basic humanity. Please all, in future, think before you blog.

[wiggy]

I have no problem with people discussing the causes of accidents such as this

Sort of agreed.

Those of us now flying in the civilian world have had to put up with ill informed or even completely uninformed speculation about the likes of BA38 and continuing speculations of the crew actions of AF447 for a while...it's the way of the modern world ( and yes, IMHO a lot of said speculation sucks).

Having said that as someone who pulled SDO on more than a few occasions I well remember kinformed, etc and I'd agree entirely with restricting the flow of information until NOK are informed....


general all rounder - you posted whilst I typed - nicely put :ok:

[tartare]

Very sad to read of the crash of Red 4.
One of the great things about this forum is that PPLs like myself from the other end of the world who have worked from time to time in the industry can ask questions and post in threads like this military one.
We can get direct access to current and former fast-jet, helicopter and other aviators to indulge a curiosity about our common passion - flight.
I've found out an incredible amount, and enjoyed reading and asking questions of people who have flown legendary aircraft, and who are doing so today... and I've learned a lot about life in the services.
So please don't restrict us from posting and asking questions.
As regards speculation about the causes of crashes, some people here seem to be conflating the principle of not speculating if you are actively involved in the investigation, or operating a similar type, so as to avoid jumping to erroneous and dangerous misconceptions at to root cause - with more generic human curiosity.
People will always speculate - especially pilots, who out of empathy for one of their brethren and concern for the safety of flight, immediately want to try and figure out what went wrong.

[phil9560]

Its happening again isn't it ?:*

[Airborne Aircrew]

Tartare:

Eloquently put...

[Capt Kremin]

People trying to stop others from speculating on PPRUNE about the causes of accidents are p***ing into the wind.

It happens every time.

I dare say no-one from the Board of Inquiry will be trolling through these pages in their search for answers.

Notable points from the video I saw.

1. Engine apparently working as smoke was still on.
2. No post crash fire.

[monkeymanagement]

We could always agree to a gentleman's agreement in these dreadful and inevitable situations.

1. Primary. A condolence thread. The family of the lost hero are going to be trawling the interwebs.

2. Secondary. A news thread. "What the news is stating", no analysis - simply linking the news.

3. Tertiary. A conjecture thread. A discussion thread that is sensitive to the situation.

Op MINIMISE should be realized in 1 & 3 above.

Maybe the MODs could create all 3 threads above upon any incident/accident with an opening descriptor founding the rules of such a thread.

MM

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Daily Rag this morning quotes a "Senior RAF source" as saying a bird strike was the likely cause.

[ChrisVJ]

Many of us who have GA aircraft belong to groups or forums for our particular types. In our group we have maybe forty to fifty regularly active posters and around two hundred or more over all.

Regrettably in the last couple of years we have had a couple of fatalities of our more popular members. From one of them the news came directly from the pilot's partner but both partners posted within a few days suggesting that we should go ahead and discuss the tragedies as it may lead to understanding and improved safety for other pilots.

Emotions are raw immediately after the event but in the longer term different people have different reactions. One of the worst aspects for the bereaved, (just my opinion) is that friends don't know how to approach them and they become isolated if they do not have a separate social circle of their own.

[Tay Cough]

Quote:
I have to give the BBC a pat on the back for that report for not having any idle speculation, or revealling anything they probably did know, until the MOD had officially announced that Flt Lt Egging had been killed.
Both the Beeb and Sky covered this tragedy pretty professionally IMO. The members of the public who were first on the scene no doubt divulged more information than they saw fit to broadcast. Credit where credit is due.

With the above in mind, would someone with influence mind pointing out to the BBC (perhaps again) that this is not the first Red Arrows fatality since the 1970s, as they suggested on BBC Breakfast this morning. Flt Lt Neil MacLachlan was sadly killed in a display practice in January 1988.

[Earl of Rochester]

Tay Cough: The Daily Telegraph quote reads:


Saturday’s accident at the Bournemouth Air Festival in Dorset was the first fatality the aerobatic team has suffered during a public display ..

.. and one assumes that this statement is indeed correct.

[Mach the Knife]

If you assume that what you read in the paper is accurate, then you are an idiot. Most of what I have read about this incident is wrong, as is the mis-informed analysis of what could have gone wrong. Clachy was killed at Scampton practicing a roll back, I went to the funeral. The Telegraph is wrong.

[pilotmike]

@Earl / The Daily Telegraph...the first fatality the aerobatic team has suffered during a public display ..
@MachThe Telegraph is wrong.
@MachClachy was killed at Scampton practicing a roll back, I went to the funeral.
@Machyou are an idiot
:eek: Who's the idiot?:ugh:

[Albert Driver]

Referring to the wider discussion:

What this site has now to decide is whether it wishes to continue to repel the serious, the highly experienced, the knowledgeable, the well-connected pilots and other aviation expects who have added so much to threads such those on the Vulcan, Concorde etc in the past and want nothing whatever to do with the ignorant tittle-tattle now spamming the site.

If PPRuNe wishes to be just another social media site where anyone can say anything that's fine. But don't expect answers to serious aviation questions from those in a position to give insightful replies. They will have gone.

Until Saturday there were just two places here where serious discussions could be held without adolescent ignorant comments: Military Aircrew and Technical. Now there is only Tech.

Of the best part of two thousand pilots of the Hamble Generation only a handful now bother to contribute here.

Time for a fundamental review of what this site is for.

Otherwise simply rename the whole thing JetBlast - because that is where it's going.

[Earl of Rochester]

Mach the Knife wrote: .. then you are an idiot.

Charming indeed!

My assumption was based on the Telegraph highlighting the fact that there had been no fatalities during public displays (as emphasised by PilotMike).

Your assumption (Mach) was that I believe everything I read and which, perhaps needless to say, is incorrect.

[XV277]

A rudimentary google would reveal to any scribbler that Flt Lt Egging was the eighth person to lose their life in a crash involving the Red Arrows.

However, the Telegraph seems to be correct in it being the first fatal accident at a public display, all the others occuring during practice.

[Mach the Knife]

Earl, Pilotmike, I apologise. Poor attention to detail on my part, rapid read of the posts early in the morning and still feeling a bit raw about losing another colleague and then reading a whole bunch of unintelligent speculation about the cause, this mornings Telegraph is a cracker. The MAAIB will get to the bottom of it idc. I have my theories, based around experience of the Hawk, display flying, and a whole host of other military flying experience. However, those I will keep to myself at this time.

[Darren_P]

We could always agree to a gentleman's agreement in these dreadful and inevitable situations.

1. Primary. A condolence thread. The family of the lost hero are going to be trawling the interwebs.

2. Secondary. A news thread. "What the news is stating", no analysis - simply linking the news.

3. Tertiary. A conjecture thread. A discussion thread that is sensitive to the situation.

Op MINIMISE should be realized in 1 & 3 above.

Maybe the MODs could create all 3 threads above upon any incident/accident with an opening descriptor founding the rules of such a thread.

MM


Another forum I frequent does a similar thing where to even view the 'incidents' sub-forum requires a minimum number of posts by the forum member.
If anything, it would cut down on the moderator workload.

[Pie Man]

Was the crash at a public display? I thought the display was on the sea-front at Bournemouth and the accident happen on recovery to Bournemouth airport some 4nm away.

PM

[grizzled]

Albert Driver wrote:


Until Saturday there were just two places here where serious discussions could be held without adolescent ignorant comments: Military Aircrew and Technical. Now there is only Tech.


I take it you haven't been following the AF447 thread on Tech...

[Flyt3est]

I came on here as a former helo FTE with an avid interest in all aspects of flight safety, fixed and rotary wing, expecting.. sorry.. HOPING to read some information regarding saturdays tragic events, from which I could draw my own opinions on what was obviously sh1te and what was informed opinion. Instead I and many other ppruners are treated to YET ANOTHER multi-page example of self proclaimed experts (Apparently by virtue of having a Pilots licence) telling those who dare infringe upon their hallowed forums, what they should and should not say. Do you really feel the need to scour the media reports and then come on here carping about inaccuracies? Of course they are inaccurate you bellend, they are writers, not engineers, military types or pilots.. you seriously expect your average civvy to know the difference between a squadron, a regiment or a bloody flotilla?? Get a grip!

Finally, Oh great aviators (for which I am truly humbled to be in your presence) I put it to you that only current serving or recent former members of The Red Arrows are really experts on this matter, so should we not limit posting rights further to these guys?

RIP Flt Lt Egging - By your achievements you were a fine aviator, and part of a team which represent the United Kingdom with skill and professionalism globally, for that you should be remembered and held in the highest regard.

PS- I give this post 20 minutes before it's deleted or I'm banned. :ugh:


Edit: Why? Do you think that swearing is a forte of yours and you have the right? Did you think it was clever to swear? It is against PPRuNe rules and the next time you will be banned. Your choice!

Apologies, it was used in the context of expressing extreme frustration at another serious thread being overtaken by self proclaimed substitute mods, thus diluting, if not completely erasing the relevance of the thread itself.. and I'm from Stirlingshire, swear words, as you consider them, do in fact form part of our native vocabulary.. Its an illness you know.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Hear, Hear.
Let's just ignore the duff posts. The Mods are doing a good job of getting rid of most of the rubbish.

[gileraguy]

I got up to "a hamster wheel of chinese whispers " ... and couldn't continue.

you guys are awesome, I just want you to know.

[Zulu 10]

As a multi-year lurker, I'm finally moved to post:

Might I suggest that the ‘social’ problems which this thread is evolving to debate are an inevitable consequence of the ‘progress’ made during the past decade in the field of personal communications.

I would suggest that it is this communication technology which both feeds and encourages the constant insatiable desire for immediate gratification, that in turn causes a vast number of people to want to discuss, analyse, decide and communicate (or what passes for that process in their minds) ad nauseum.

Moreover they appear to engage in the process without regard for whether they have anything factual or positive to contribute.

I assume that in their mind they have validated their right to respond (contribute?) by artificially enhancing the (perceived by them) value of their contribution.

It’s no different to the irritatingly big-mouthed thick kid at school who would ‘contribute’ because he knew no better. The only difference is that on the internet there aren’t thirty other kids to instantly shout the kid down so that after he’s done it a few times he knows his place in life.

I frequent a couple of specialist car web-sites where, when an owner reports a particular problem and asks for advice, it is almost guaranteed that he will receive such helpful replies as “can’t help you myself but I hope you get it fixed…”, or; “it’s a shame you’re not in Aberdeen, cos my local garage is wonderful with these”, or even; “…yeah, my old <insert make and model> used to do that, but we sold the car before we figured out what was causing it.” :ugh:

Do these people really think that such ‘contributions’ are what the internet was invented to facilitate?? Well yes, actually, clearly they do!

And let’s be honest; there are some discussions on here relating to the weapons and sensors capabilities of some of our own platforms that contain very little more than ill informed conjecture and disinformation – some of it from those presumably serving who ought to know better. Some of it also containing a level of political naïveté that is breathtaking when one considers that it relates to potential export opportunities.:ugh:

(Those who recognise me from my handle will also know that I am moderately well informed and could offer correction – but have resisted the temptation thus far )

I appreciate that none of the examples above relate to anything more than metal and money, and can in no way be compared to a tragedy that involves a loss of life or lives.

Unfortunately I fear that the modern media that allows us to engage in such mass discussion, often in such inane ways, has also, possibly unwittingly, allowed us to spectate and then speculate with a feeling of remoteness and detachment that can to the unwary result in a form of autism where the emotional aspect or consequence is ignored – much to the discomfort and/or fury of others.

Thus when the subject is a tragic event such as Saturday’s (RIP Flt Lt Egging); and when emotions are running high, some of the speculation is done without thought for human social norms, personal etiquette or common courtesy.

The fact that it is done in ignorance is, I entirely agree, no defence, but I must ask you: what are the alternatives?



Switch off the internet?
Put a 48 hour delay into all reported news?
Shout the thick kid down by means of a brief temporary ban until the lesson is learnt?
Take a personal decision not to contribute further (after all it’s their loss, isn’t it?)?
Go off and form a carefully guarded clique into which only the virtuous are permitted entry? (bit blooming lonely in there isn’t it Billy?)


I don’t pretend to have the answer, but we must recognise and possibly tolerate the social malaise that sadly comes hand-in-hand with the benefit of instant communications for all without the benefit of instant brains for all.

End of sermon

[coley chaos]

For the UK or listeners on line...

Listening to Radio 2...The Vine show....The Reds are to be discussed soon.

Chris.

[effects]

A classic quote from the Metro,
"A bird could have caused a complete loss of power by extinguishing the flame in the Hawk-T1 jet's engine."
Read more: Red Arrows pilot Jon Egging's jet 'may have hit bird' | Metro.co.uk (http://www.metro.co.uk/news/873062-red-arrows-pilot-jon-eggings-jet-may-have-hit-bird#ixzz1VktVbZRp)

[Clockwork Mouse]

The reporter probably heard somewhere that the remains of a hawk had been found at the scene. At least they got "aerobatic" right.

[Chris Scott]

Never having flown fast jets, hope the serious contributors to this thread will humour a couple of naive questions.

When you break formation to recover on to base leg for landing, could this ever involve more g – or a lot of it for longer – than the display itself? I've always assumed that, by definition, you are dumping speed at idle thrust, so any high g would be too short-lived to induce g-lock. But you might pull a lot momentarily for positioning purposes. Is that correct?

Secondly, have there been any pilot incapacitations on Hawks caused by bird-strikes?

PS: grizzled, you have a point...

[grizzled]

Zulu 10...

Thank you for that well written and well thought out post. Your observations are applicable not just to this thread, forum, or website, but to all our communications today.

grizz

[Albert Driver]

...but I must ask you: what are the alternatives?

Switch off the internet?
Put a 48 hour delay into all reported news?
Shout the thick kid down by means of a brief temporary ban until the lesson is learnt?
Take a personal decision not to contribute further (after all it’s their loss, isn’t it?)?
Go off and form a carefully guarded clique into which only the virtuous are permitted entry? (bit blooming lonely in there isn’t it Billy?)

I don't see any difficulty. Plenty of other sites have dealt with this problem.

Start kicking people off permanently, letting everyone know it's being done and people soon get the message.
Those who write pointless ignorant posts and those who just want to troll soon realise the game is up and go elsewhere.
If this is not done on this site soon then everone else will go and leave the adolescents here.

[XV490]

Jon Egging's loss was a very public tragedy - not only because it happened just after an airshow appearance but also because he was a member of the Red Arrows. It's the latter that seems to have driven the public response this week, with comments such as "he was one of the few". It smacks of the cult of celebrity.

I'm sure he'd have been among the first to play down such 'showbiz' status and remind the public the RAFAT represents and promotes the wider air force and all that it stands for. The eulogies for one of the best pilots of his generation are all thoroughly deserved, but let's not forget that the loss of RAF aircrew in flying accidents, or even on ops, rarely generate this much coverage. Indeed, we all know of such incidents that, sadly, didn't make it to the national TV news.

[p7r]

Those demanding people should be banned for life for "ill-informed conjecture" might want to consider that members of his own family are coming up with likely unfounded theories (unless she knows more than has been released to the public so far), and placing them in a context more likely to be seen by other members of the family:

Second Red Arrows pilot forced to make emergency landing following bird strike (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8715128/Second-Red-Arrows-pilot-forced-to-make-emergency-landing-following-bird-strike.html)

Flt Lt Egging’s grandmother, Doris Egging, said one theory was that he blacked out because of the G-force on his aircraft as he tried to steer it to safety.

She said: "Jon was a hero but he probably didn’t eject because he was unable to after being knocked out. I would very much believe he would sacrifice his own life to save others, that’s the way he was."

Conjecture is a very human thing to want to do, it would seem. Or it could just be the Telegraph reporter is incredibly callous in tracking her down and pressing her for an idea as to what happened.

The entire Hawk T1 fleet is currently grounded. Anybody any idea on how long that ban might be in place for? How many are still operational? My (limited) understanding is that these are now only used at Valley and Leeming for training purposes, but were being phased out and replaced with Hawk 128s with digital cockpits, so students didn't run screaming when being pulled from one of these and being dropped into a Typhoon...

P.S. - been reading PPRuNe for a while, this thread - and the sanctimonious attitudes some are showing - has prompted me to finally sign up. This is my first post. I look forward to enjoying discussing all things aviation with some of you in less sad and tragic threads than this.

[grandfer]

Going a little bit sideways on this thread , I just read on the Fairford/RIAT website , that one of the incidents at RIAT this year was a bird-strike on a Hawk aircraft at the air show , 1st. time I'd heard about this .:confused:

[BigJessie]

Despite having lost several friends and colleagues in military accidents, and flown too many casualties resulting from brit mil operations, I was still shaken as I stood on the beach in Bournemouth having heard that one of the a/c I'd just seen display had not made it back to Bournemouth Airport.

It's still true that aviation can be a very unforgiving job/pastime. Hopefully they'll find the cause soon - before all the braindead speculate to destruction.......

[Bill Macgillivray]

Sir,

Now that you have stopped "lurking" please, please continue with your commonsense postings on this site. I try not to get worked-up at my age, but many of the posts here have been absolute rubbish!!! I know it is a "Rumour" site and I also remember the original P/O Prune, however, I think that he was probably more humane and accurate!!:ok:

[Bubblewindow]

Just seen this! Not familiar with that paper so maybe someone can enlighten me on it's reputation??


Red Arrows pilot Jon Egging's jet 'may have hit bird' | Metro.co.uk (http://www.metro.co.uk/news/873062-red-arrows-pilot-jon-eggings-jet-may-have-hit-bird)

BW

[dead_pan]

maybe someone can enlighten me on it's reputation


It doesn't really have one, apart from being the bane of rubbish collectors on the capital's rail network. Put it another way, I'd be surprised if it got a scoop on any major news story.

[DozyWannabe]

I take it you haven't been following the AF447 thread on Tech...

Sadly that has a lot to do with at least one poster (possibly more) posting under a series of aliases, asking the same questions every few pages or so, and people attempting to be helpful to them (including myself for some time) not spotting the pattern. To be honest, given how prolific said poster is, I'm impressed it has stayed as on-target as it has for as long as it has.

As for this one, all I can say is that it's a rotten shame, whatever the cause turns out to be. As someone who has been awestruck by the Reds and many other display flyers out there, be careful out there, folks!

[meadowbank]

For G-CPTN

You asked earlier about inverted ejection. The limitation on the Hawk when I flew it (1979-80) was that you could eject inverted as low as 350 ft provided you had no rate of descent.

[Trim Stab]

When you break formation to recover on to base leg for landing, could this ever involve more g – or a lot of it for longer – than the display itself? I've always assumed that, by definition, you are dumping speed at idle thrust, so any high g would be too short-lived to induce g-lock. But you might pull a lot momentarily for positioning purposes. Is that correct?


In level flight g is equal to the reciprocal of the cosine of the angle of bank. It is unrelated to airspeed. A 60º inclined turn in a PA28 at 120knots gives the same g as a 60º inclined turn in a Typhoon at 500knots - that is to say 2g.

[Flyt3est]

Having checked the MB website, and the sequence of events following initiation of an ejection, It seems strange that Flt Lt Egging was found with his chute, yet the seat apparently was still in the plane / cockpit wreckage?

I seem to recall many years ago a Harrier(?) flying unmanned over the irish sea, apparently due to inadvertant firing of the drogue on the seat.

FT

[Exascot]

It seems strange that Flt Lt Egging was found with his chute, yet the seat apparently was still in the plane / cockpit wreckage?

I can't find it now but I thought that the guys who found him found the seat first in the river then the parachute.

[Flyt3est]

Exascot - Yes the reports seem sketchy, and my comment that the seat was in the cockpit wreckage was an assumption based on loose reports. I note a lack of witnesses to seeing the parachute in the air??

[SOSL]

He was a very competent military flier who died doing his job . He joins the list of those who have done the same over many years. We salute him, his wife and his team, each of whom could have suffered the same fate. We don't know what happened, we should wait and see. I hope the Arrows will continue to thrill the crowds.

[Seat 32F]

All very sad and my thoughts go out to Flt Lt Jon Egging's remarkable widow, his family, friends and colleagues in the team. I hope that the true facts emerge quickly so that they may know with certainty what went wrong and find their peace.

I sincerely hope that the team recovers from this tragedy and survives the next round of defence spending cuts that threatens their continued existence. Some MP's have recently (before the accident) expressed the view that the £8.8m per annum budget is money wasted.

The show of public support that has been evident this past few days must surely speak for itself: the Red Arrows are one of the few things left in Britain that we can still legitimately be proud of. They are the best. They must keep flying ... at any cost.

[westhawk]

I too feel a kinship with the Red Arrows. I'm neither British nor a military fast jet pilot, just a civilian corporate pilot who served his US military time in Europe over two decades ago. While there, I had the opportunity to see the team perform at Farnborough in '88. I too would like to see them continue to represent the UK with style and pride. I hope it works out that way.

Military flying in general and jet demo flying in particular is by it's nature an activity which exposes it's participants to a higher level of hazard than most other organized flying. It's testament to the professionalism and skill of these team members that mishaps are as rare as they are. Yet still the occasional mishap will unfortunately occur. It's the nature of the beast.

Whatever the cause(s) behind this one, it will be revealed in due course. Some of the speculation appears well reasoned and of course there is the rest. I don't mind withholding my conjecture until a few more facts are presented. There just isn't much reliable information to work with yet.

Best regards,

westhawk

[Pilotinmydreams]

Watching the Reds, as I have a number of times, makes me feel proud to be British. There is something about them that's just that little bit extra special over and above other nation's display teams.

As far as i'm concerned Jon Egging was a hero pilot who served his country with honour and died doing what he loved. He'll be greatly missed. RIP.

[Evanelpus]

Been out of the loop for a couple of days.

I watched the SKY news interview of his wife and wanted to throttle the inane woman who interviewed her. I thought Flt Lt Eggings wife showed tremendous courage and bravery to speak about her husband so soon after this tragic accident.

Sincere condolences to all who knew Flt Lt Egging.

RIP John.

[Seat 32F]

I watched the SKY news interview of his wife and wanted to throttle the inane woman who interviewed her.

Indeed. Mrs Egging displayed incredible dignity and elegance in the face of her personal loss. She is an example to us all.

[MAINJAFAD]

Having checked the MB website, and the sequence of events following initiation of an ejection, It seems strange that Flt Lt Egging was found with his chute, yet the seat apparently was still in the plane / cockpit wreckage?

I seem to recall many years ago a Harrier(?) flying unmanned over the irish sea, apparently due to inadvertant firing of the drogue on the seat.

FT

A number of the events in the operation of MB Mk10 seats fitted to the Hawk are initiated by the seat moving out of the cockpit and not the pulling of the black and yellow handle. Two of them (firing of the drogue gun and initiation of the barostatic time release) will result in parachute deployment and aircrew/seat separation. (The other two are canopy MDC firing as the seat starts to move and initiation of the rocket motor as the seat fully exits the cockpit). Operation of the manual override handle will also fire the drogue gun and initiate parachute deployment along with aircrew/seat separation, though the Hawk may have an interlock to stop that from operating unless the B/Y handle is pulled. The Harrier accident in the late 1980s is covered here (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/182748-accidental-fatal-ejection-over-southern-england.html)

[ponshus]

In October Jon Egging was due to take part in a charity cycle ride from coast to coast across the UK. This was with other Red Arrows and the RAF Historic Flight. It was to raise money for the RAF Association and the charity fly2help.
Donations may be made at :- Virgin Money Giving | Fundraising | Jon Egging's Coast-to-Coast Challenge (http://www.virginmoneygiving.com/RAFATrider4)

[tezzer]

It would appear from the comments left in the last day or so, that John's widow, Emma will be doing the ride, in his memory. Now if THAT doesn't deserve a few quid from all and sundry, I don't know what does. I'm in for a tenner.

[ponshus]

That's right - Thanks tezzer.

[StuartP]

Not familiar with that paper so maybe someone can enlighten me on it's reputation??

Owned by the same group as the Daily Mail.

I watched the Reds by accident at Whitby Regatta the week before - we had no idea the Regatta was on, we only called in so our little lad could watch a steam train and build a sandcastle and wondered why it was so busy ! I hadn't seen them for years and they were fantastic of course - so sad to be reading this a week later.

[Fortissimo]

More 'helpful speculation' here: Flash of &lsquo;fire&rsquo; on doomed Red Arrow | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3770828/Flash-of-fire-on-doomed-Red-Arrow.html) DTel has also picked up the story, so it must be true. Unless, of course, what our spotter photographed is an anti-collision light. Perhaps the header should have read "Flash of 'fire' inside light bulb on doomed Red Arrow".... However, the sub caption is absolutely spot on: "Light caught on film moments before crash." :ugh:

[wub]

Here is the very same phenomenon, but on the top of the aircraft. The un-named 'flying expert' has probably never seen anything like this either.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/wub_01/P1010021a.jpg

[Mikey56]

Great post - a way of showing support and gratitude in a way that we already know Jon would have supported. Thanks very much and let's see what we can do

[tezzer]

I took the liberty of putting the link to the cycle challenge on a couple of forums I subscribe to, concering 200mph motorbikes and Pistonheads, the more people who know about this the better, may I respectfully suggest that other people do the same, and spread the word, show what else makes Britain Great.

[Seat 32F]

Have just popped it onto Face book, hopefully the 'viral' effect will kick in.

[tezzer]

It would appear it is doing, I facebooked it earlier,and posted details on 2 forums, and whilst in no way connecting the three, the donations have gone up significantly, and so they damn well should !

[brit bus driver]

FB & company forum....tenner's in. Good luck Emma.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

So does that imply that there were no technical issues with the aircraft?




Oddly my post appeared 10 minutes before I posted it.

[MagnusP]

Cleared to fly again, according to Auntie.

BBC News - Red Arrows can start flying again after fatal crash (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14666350)

[Alloa Akbar]

They had already cancelled the remainder of Augusts displays, September is not a particularly busy and with respect, high profile display month, perhaps best to bin the lot given the circumstances. No doubt some will say "The show must go on".. personally I think it's time to reflect, re-group and come back next year as the Red Arrows we all know, respect and admire.

[Chris Scott]

Quote:
"The team has been cleared to display again."

Very much hope you are right, Finningley Boy, but what is your source? The BBC and Guardian, in almost identical reports, write:
"The Red Arrows have been cleared to resume flying..." [my emphasis]

They both quote a MoD "spokeswoman" as saying:
"Having been assured of the airworthiness of the Hawk T1 fleet, the precautionary suspension of flying activity has been lifted and flying operations have been resumed."

But the BBC article quotes a "defence spokeperson" as saying:
"It is extremely unlikely that they will do any displays for the rest of this year."

If the latter quote is authoritative, there is an element of mixed-message (as usual) from the powers that be. If the Hawk T1 has been cleared as a type, and the Red Arrows regularly practise an 8-ship routine to allow for crew sickness, what would stop them from resuming displays this season?
How about Dunsfold this wekend? Paticularly appropriate for the Hawks, and the public response would be overwhelming: one in the eye for any jobsworth eyeing the cost and ignoring the value.

Yes, Alloa Akbar, the show MUST go on.

[Alloa Akbar]

Chris - Agree 100%.. but value in returning this year?? On the flipside I guess it may help morale of the team.. who knows, I guess we'll have to wait and see which way they call it. I hope whatever they do is based on what the team themselves feel is appropriate and this doesn't become a vehicle for the "Lets scrap the Reds" brigade to jump on.

[davydine]

As a matter of interest, do the reds need to get a public display authority for the 8 ship formation or is that already in place?

I understand that they practice an 8 ship formation and have displayed as such in the past.

[Mandator]

The Beeb report has changed substantially. Looks like the "defence spokesperson" has had a sharp kick in the *****!

[757_Driver]

I would love to see the reds flying again this year, mind you for those of us with a Passion got aviation an 8 ship reds display in these circumstances will be very poignant and will probably move many a grown man to tears
However let's not jump the gun and talking about jobsworths. There's still an accident report to complete and all we can infer at the moment is that they must be fairly sure there's no generic issue with the hawk 1. There's a lot of ground to cover yet, unless they are fairl certain of a cause and that still may have operational implications to the reds and the way they operate.
Personally I'd love to see them this year. But Id rather see them operate next year with confidence rather than this year with things still on their minds.

[N.HEALD]

Taken direct from the Red website:-

In the absence of any critical safety recommendations in the Service Inquiry’s initial report the precautionary suspension of Hawk T1 flying activity has been lifted and flying operations have been resumed. The Red Arrows aircraft will fly back to RAF Scampton tomorrow (Friday 26 August 2011). In preparation for the resumption of public displays the Red Arrows will begin flying eight ship formation display practices starting on 30 August 2011. Display flying by the Red Arrows team, in an eight ship formation, will recommence subject to a successful period of consolidation and approval to display. As part of their display season preparation the Red Arrows practice displays with eight aircraft so that a display can go ahead if a pilot is unable to fly

[BravoWhisky7A]

Have added Flt Lt Egging's Just Giving webpage to my Facbook page. Hope it helps towards increasing the total.

BW7A

[sunshine band]

Here are some from Waddington in 2010 when one went u/s on the ground elsewhere...

http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo116/sband/800redsvert8ship030710.jpg

http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo116/sband/800reds8shipdivingwad030710.jpg

http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo116/sband/8008redsovertopbwad030710.jpg

All cleared and signed off already just incase a Hawk goes tech...

SB

[ShyTorque]

From NOTAMs:

Q) egtt/qrtcd/iv/bo/w/000/085/5149n00145w120
b) from: 11/08/25 16:32c) to: 11/08/30 23:59

e) red arrows displays and associated restricted areas(temporary)at
clacton, dartmouth, chester, dunsfold, diss, uffington and hoylake
all cancelled. Amend aic m066/2011.
11-08-0182/as 6

lower: Sfc
upper: 8500ft amsl

[BOAC]

Just to clarify - there is a distinction between an '8-ship' with one going u/s on start-up or in the show and a 'permanent' 8-ship which is a completely different beast and with different elements depending on the 'missing'. It needs a solid work-up period as opposed to the former which in my day would be 'dropped into' using a mixture of leader instructions, pre-arranged 'SOPs' and common-sense..

[Chris Scott]

Thanks BOAC,

Guess that means there are nine different combinations to be practised, if a 'perfect' 8-ship is to be created? That would be an awful lot of flying...

So, during the season, if any one pilot is taken ill the day before a public display, can you say which of the two options is likely to be used?

[BOAC]

nine different combinations to be practised - well, perhaps 8? There is always a deputy lead - in my time I was cleared to lead 8 down to 500', but I don't think I would EVER have dreamt of putting on any sort of display! I don't expect I would have had more than a couple still with me after a couple of manoeuvres:) More a 'get-you-home' function.

In your example, it is down to the team/command structure to handle that decision 'on the day'.

[foldingwings]

Flash of &lsquo;fire&rsquo; on doomed Red Arrow | The Sun |News

f:mad:ing people ought to be castrated!

We ought to stop calling them Journalists:

jour·nal·ism

noun /ˈjərnlˌizəm/ 

The activity or profession of writing for newspapers or magazines or of broadcasting news on radio or television

and go back to calling them reporters, then they might just report instead of attempting to sensationalise:

reporter

noun /'rɪˈpɔːtə'

A person who reports, esp one employed to gather news for a newspaper, news agency, or broadcasting organization

Foldie:mad:

[Thelma Viaduct]

FFS !!!!!! It's the feckin sun for crying out loud, do you really expect accurate reporting???

It's like complaining about the boiling water being too hot.

This forum = :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[foldingwings]

My comment goes well beyond The Sun to the inner core of these low lifes!

[Magic90]

I thought that all new flying display routines had to be authorised by the Group AOC before they could go ahead...or have the rules changed?