Hours nonsense

[RichT]

Can someone enlighten me on why companies exist in a total state of confusion on the number of hours you should have. I am about to receive a PFO letter from Atlantic that will say thank you but we only recruit pilots with at least 1000 hrs. Now according to some of the threads on pprune Atlantic are clearly sponsoring students. They are not surely going to make these guys wait until they have 1000 hours before taking them on.

I believe that the number of hours that you have is pretty irrelevant when it comes to flying once you have passed your IR etc. Clearly the Airlines think the same as well otherwise they wouldn't bother with whole day interviews with psychometric testing etc. Are they just saying go forth and multiply and using the hours thing as an excuse? And if so why?

[batty]

Lots of other airlines do the same, look at BA for a start! I dont think that just because you have an IR you are as good as the higher hours people, you just have an IR not the experience,I only have 200 hours. It infuriates me as well but hours generaly=experience

[RVR800]

If you had a pile of cv's how would you
wittle them down?

It's a numbers thing

Sharron while I'm out pet could you go through this pile of cv's

People born after X
Hours greater than Y

What I would LOVE to know is how many
professional pilots registered at Gatwick
actually work as professional pilots full
time

The CAA medical branch collect this
[commercially (for the CAA) sensitive]
data but it isn't available on the SRG
website - I suspect it never will be

[DeltaTango]

Now that's a bloody good question.....

I suppose it has something to do with them nor trusting the training you have unless they trained you themselves....?!?!?

DT

[RichT]

Sorry Batty I think I probably over simplified things. What I should have said was I have 750 hours and I am not expecting any sudden religious flash of light over the next 250 hours that makes me step back and say "Of course that's what it's all about. What a fool I have been all these years. That's how you fly an aeroplane".

Time to lie down in a darkened room I think.

[go]

sombody told me that its to do with insurance.....Iv got 821hrs plus about 250 in gliders ...does that mean iv got 1000hrs...? I think not...

[AffirmBrest]

[QUOTE}I believe that the number of hours that you have is pretty irrelevant when it comes to flying once you have passed your IR etc.[/QUOTE]

Imagine, Rich, you finally make it to the RHS of a shiny jet. On your first day, you meet the Captain, who has many thousands of hours - and during conversation, he remarks that he always failed those psychometric and aptitude thingys...what are you to think?

Will you suggest that since you got higher scores than he when YOU last did them, and since you both have the same ATPL/IR qualification, it makes more sense that YOU be the Captain today and he sits in the RHS to benefit from your flying knowledge and ability?

Or do you keep quiet, secure in the knowledge that you have known all about flying since you passed your IR and you'll just humour the old guy?

I am not really trying to use sarcasm to have a go, just point out what I AM sure you appreciate, and that is there is a LOT more to flying than just passing the IR and 1179/LST MPA for your type.

As with ANY job, you'd pick the guy who had 4 prior years in a similar post over the guy who had 6 months every time, wouldn't you?

The pilots who join airlines with low hours on a sponsorship scheme have to commit a lot more in terms of contract length and a huge amount more in financial terms - the company is compensated for the shortfall in experience taken on by the greater long-term benefits of the cadets contract.

I daresay you would hesitate to join a company who said: OK, you have low hours so we'll pay you £8K less p.a. and bond you for an extra 2 years - alright?

I understand your frustration with the apparent unfairness of your situation, but I somehow doubt that it has been entirely unpredictable...there are pros and cons to every route into flying - self-improver, ex-mil, sponsorship - you current predicament seems to be a con of the particular route that you picked.

I sincerely wish you success in your job hunt - just keep an open mind!

------------------
...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...

[RichT]

I feel I have to repeat my reply to Batty. I obviously didn't mean that I, with 750 hrs, was as qualified as a pilot with 1000's of hours on type. The point I was making was one of parity. I do not believe that I shall be a much better pilot with an extra 250 hours on a single engined aircraft or light twin.
I thought my point was clear but may be I am starting to empathise with the selectors.

[AffirmBrest]

Point taken - though you never know....

'It won't happen to me!'

[StrateandLevel]

The CAA have no idea how many of the licensed pilots work as pilots or even how many have valid ratings. All their statistics can tell you is how many have valid medicals. Maybe when the new JAA paperwork filters back, they will start to get an idea.

[steven]

To RichT, yes Atlantic sponsor students. They always have done. They recruit cadets as their priority it seems. And yes they do put the cadets on other aircraft to let them get the experience before they train them on public transport aircraft.
It a shame it happens every where. It is experience that talks but ya gotta bet it somewhere.

[expedite_climb]

An IR shows an abiltity to fly to a set standard procedure.

Experience gives ability to handle aircraft in a wide variety of (non normal) situations to a higher standard.

After all, when flying a shiny tube with 3 autopilots, although a certain standard is required, how important is your physical handling ability ?

[RichT]

Couldn't agree more. So how will an extra 250 hours in a C150 or a PA28 give me that. Its hours they are asking for not hours on type or even on a comparable aircraft.

[RichT]

Anyway I've had my winge now. It's not going to change anything so I will shut-up. I think RVR800 hit the nail on the head. It's a simple paper sift.

I want to work for the company that has the balls to tell me I got the job because my cv landed address side up when it came through the letter box. I know I am no better or worse than anyone else.

Best of luck to you all. May your cv stand out like snow in a coal mine.

[Roc]

RichT

6000+ hours, military fighters, transports, combat...1500 in a 727 for a major airline, and last week I learned a few more new things! Don't walk into an interview with that attitude of "what will another 250 hours do for me" you'll be asking that question for a very long time. I see your point about seeming useless or unfair, but like everything in life, its a game, the rules are out there..live by them and Good Luck

[Pilot Pete]

RichT

I know it's frustrating,but consider it from the employers point of view. They want the best they can get for their money. How do they do this? Selection. How do they select? They take the pile of current cv's on file and whittle the number down to a manageable size to consider for interview (an expensive use of a managers time). They have a fairly blunt way of doing this, especially when it comes to low hours pilots (less than 1000 seems to be the magic figure) but really it depends on quality of hours also. If they have enough cv's from peolpe with experience that more closely match their requirements they generally won't bother with any low hours pilots, simply because they view it as return on expenditure, and they think the least likely person to fail the type rating course is the more experienced guy and lets face it you can't really argue with that. We know it is not necessarily so but that's life buddy.

Suggestions? Dig harder and deeper for what you really want, don't just blitz the cv out. You have to make personal contact with the people who make the hiring decisions and sell yourself to them personally. The rest is just being in the right place at the right time......luck? well I don't think so because I think you will have made your own luck. It does work. Don't lose heart, just read my old thread about how I got there.

Regards

PP

[Macman]

RichT,

This might make you laugh. I am a Turboprop Captain at the moment. I met a guy the other day who was looking for his first job who had gone down the instructor route. I did a BCPL to CPL/IR Upgrade course myself which meant I was labelled a'5-0-Niner' when I got my first job. This chap proceeded to tell me how much he hated '200 hour guys' and '509ers'- it was all so unfair. He had assumed as I was a Turbo Captain I couldn't possibly originally have been a '509er'with a few hundred hours - so I think alot of the advice above is valid. If you stay positive you will get a break. Whichever way people get into this industry they generally have to make some sacrifices - time/money/family etc so to me all routes into an airline job are valid - even BA Cadetships. I can't think of a better way to get into civil aviation than to have BA pay for it can you?

[Raw Data]

StrateandLevel:

>> The CAA have no idea how many of the licensed pilots work as pilots or even how many have valid ratings. All their statistics can tell you is how many have valid medicals. <<

Complete and utter bollocks. Do you have a Class 1? If so, the form the doc got you to fill out before the exam asked, amongst other things, type of flying you do, type of aircraft, and hours since last medical. These will easily give the stats that were referred to (in the UK).

Everybody else: It's simple.

Hours=experience=less of a training risk.

Many people get through the IR issue then fail the renewal.

Many people pass the IR, get a job and fail the sim course (for a variety of reasons). Still more pass the sim course but fail the line training.

The IR is a (very) basic qualification. Almost everything you do in airline training will be more demanding.

Light aircraft experience is of little benefit when it comes to the demands of airline training. The oft-quoted 1000 hours is an arbitrary figure, but one that experience has shown to be a good baseline.

As is often the case, the process may not SEEM fair to you, but it does generate an essentially level playing field once the minimum requirements are met.

We hire all sorts of people, 509-ers, self-improvers, older people, the whole range. Without a doubt, the ones with more general flying experience have the most success.

[DeeTee]

Whilst in a lot of cases I am sure it is simply a numbers exercise to make the pile on your desk a little smaller I think you've got to be a little more considered in your approach. We all know the companies out there that will take on low hour pilots, as we all know the ones that won't. Maersk Air Uk Ltd just advertised for low hour pilots to fly their 737's and CRJ's.

I landed my first ob with only 250 hours and a recently created CPL/IR. Admittedly I did spend over a year languishing at home doing crap jobs to earn enough to pay the interest on my aviation loan but it happened eventually (strange thing that, when I was a wannabe I was told not to lose heart as it would happen eventually).
I can still remember the frustration of getting a wedge of PFO's. I even have a couple from the company that finally recruited me with no extra experience!! I used to think that it was a catch 22 on the old need experience to get job...need job to get experience mantra.

However, I am not sure that stepping straight in the RHS of a slippery jet was the best thing. With around 750 hours on type now, I still get bitten by the damn thing, I fly it around manually a lot to keep switched on (our company encourages it) but there is no doubt that the whole management of a commercial flight, at jet speeds and weights can be very hard work, even with 2 of you there. It is safe to say that by the end of my I/R I felt I could fly the Sennecca. By the end of a year on type, with hundreds of T/O's and landings on type (yep we're short haul) I am very glad there is someone with 'experience' parked next to me.

I guess what this rambling diatribe is on about is four things:

1. Don't give up, you will get there (thanks Capt,Pablo,WWW etc)

2. Try not to let the unfairness of the system break you...at least don't let it be seen to break you.

3. Just because a company has said no a couple of times, doesn't meant it won't say yes eventually (what was the deciding factor in getting me the job was the company had a computer record of all applicants and I had applied numerous times before...this meant I was interested, other people for interview hadn't.)

4. Experience is the process of finding out how little you know. Every day I find I know less than I thought I did the day before. True enlightment, and the pinnacle of flying is the discovery you know nothing at all.

:)

[Jimmy Mack]

Interesting series of opinions....I guess the more hours the better - experience certainly can't do any harm. The Bank Manager may have a different opinion!

I was particularly interested in the comment about HOW people have spent their hours.

OK so you have 1000 hours, for example. By definition, you would have got a frozen ATPL in that time, so the usual PPL, IMC, CPL, IR and exams is a given. But that might be about 200 hours.

So what constitutes quality in amongst the rest of the hours? Some suggestions:

- Multi time
- Complex single hours
- Simulator.

How about long 'adventurous' cross-countries or experiencing flying in different countries. These are different experiences - but would an employer be interested?

[RichT]

Interesting point Jimmy Mack. Has anyone had a reply that says "You haven't got enough cross country time" or "You haven't done enough night flying" etc. The military guys come out of service with a lot of hours but I suspect the fighter pilots do a lot more takeoffs and landings than say the Tristar guys. On the other hand most fighters are single engine. All of these things make one individual and more or less suited to a specific job (if experience was the only factor). These are the points that employers should be using to sift their pile of CVs rather than a straight greater than/less than figure.

This need not take any longer to do if employers stated how they want CVs to be presented. Several threads have suggested CV templates which are all excellent but they are general. If a company wants a CV written in a particular way then I am sure that ever wannabe here would be happy to oblige.

I am sure too often this simplistic approach has led to throwing the baby out with the bath water. I am lucky in that I don't have a huge loan to pay off and I can afford to build an extra few hundred hours if that’s what an employer is looking for. I am sure though that there are guys with 200 or 300 hours that have worked their backside off to get there, with large loans, that are better pilots than me. It is these guys that are being over looked and if companies want true quality they have to take a qualitative approach to selection.