History of BOAC

[renfrew]

We have discussed before,a rare book-The History of BOAC by Winston Bray.
I have been looking for a copy for many years and have just found one at reasonable cost.
There are also another 2 copies on the river site at an unreasonable price.
I am still confused though.As I understand it the book was originally written in 1975 and then suppressed by the company.
The copies on sale are a 1986 edition which I didn't know existed.
Does anyone know the full story and where the 1986 edition came from?

[Albert Driver]

If good timing is the secret of success, then a senior BA manager writing a book about BOAC in 1975 must be a masterclass in bad timing.

In 1975 the BEA/BOAC merger was clearly seen to be a disaster. David Nicholson had failed to give any sense of vision or common purpose to the staff of the two merging companies, which had dissolved into factionalism and in-fighting. In the subsequent repeated attempts to end this almost all the senior managers went (including Mr Bray, I think) and any mention of BOAC and BEA was very strongly discouraged.

It didn't work and the chaos continued throughout the 1970s until a desperate Margaret Thatcher bought in the biggest bully she could find, and John King finally imposed a single structure and some sense of vision and purpose to the BA we now know.

Not surprising, then, that Mr Bray's work was not widely known and circulated in 1975.

By 1986 the situation was radically different. In the frenzy of the BA privatisation, BOAC had long been forgotten by all but a few. If the book was then reprinted I doubt there would have been much interest. The moment had passed. History had been rewritten and BOAC was now bad inefficient airline. Anything saying otherwise was out of step.

[A30yoyo]

Why did BSAA and BEA split away from the British Overseas Airways that emerged from WWII (curiously the name British Airways was marked on many of BOAC's aircraft and signs/labels in 1941-1945 )?

Whose idea was it around 1972 to combine BOAC/BEA?

[renfrew]

BOAC was a merger of Imperial Airways and the original British Airways.
I imagine that ex British Airways managers were in control for a while resulting in the use of British Airways on the aircraft.

The emergence of BSAA and BEA and the eventual merger to form the new British Airways were purely political decisions by the governments of the day.

[Groundloop]

Why did BSAA and BEA split away from the British Overseas Airways that emerged from WWII

They didn't. BSAA was set up as a privately funded airline that was then bought by the UK Government before it started operating.

BEA really came out of Railway Air Services although some early European operations were carried out by BOAC before BEA was completly organised.

[A30yoyo]

Yes, I always assumed that it was the influence of ex British Airways Ltd staff which accounted for the wartime fleet carrying either 'British Airways' or just the Speedbird on the nose (but maybe they were trying to save paint/labour/space!)

The sequence with BSAA seems to have been foundation as privately owned British Latin American Airlines, name change to BSAA, Nationalisation and ownership by BOAC, start of service as separate Nationalised Corporation BSAA, period of service with several aircraft losses, reincorporation into BOAC and departure of Don Bennett

Attached a photo of the BOAC desk in the Heathrow Northside Terminal about 1948 showing the graphic attempt to 'unify' the 3 corporations
http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz20/A30yoyo/British-Airways-combi-sign.jpg


And for no particular reason some photos of Giles Guthrie (BOAC chairman ca.1964) when he flew BA Ltd first Lockheed 14 service to Warsaw in 1939 (click on pics to enlarge)
Zbiory NAC on-line - prototyp (http://www.audiovis.nac.gov.pl/obraz/86650/7fcf10023ddb10b5d2c8fc697b4e28bc/)
Zbiory NAC on-line - prototyp (http://www.audiovis.nac.gov.pl/obraz/86648/7fcf10023ddb10b5d2c8fc697b4e28bc/)
Zbiory NAC on-line - prototyp (http://www.audiovis.nac.gov.pl/obraz/86643/c54f7c5e2667aa70c22f80a3246138ce/)

[WHBM]

Merger of Imperial AW and British AW Ltd at the end of 1939 had been agreed before the war but by the time it was carried out both carriers' services, being international only, had either been suspended, or become a quasi-military operation, and the bulk of the staff had gone into the forces. Ironically the few UK domestic civilian services which remained through the war, to outlying islands etc, remained independent outside this merger.

Quite why BSAA was set up as a separate state-owned intercontinental operation is just one of those mysteries. Would't be surprised if Bennett had just strongarmed some civil servants into it. I'll probably get some comments if I say it was a shambolic operation from beginning to end, but I'll say it anyway.

BEA really started as an offshoot of BOAC operations, and some staff were transferred across to begin with. Other independent carriers were merged/forced to merge with it. Railway Air Services, which had continued some minor operations through the war and was expanding again, though just domestic services, was one of these. It was owned mainly by the major railway companies, who themselves were about to be nationalised, with a minority interest by Imperial, which had come down to BOAC.

[A30yoyo]

Getting back to the Winston Bray book, what does he have to say on some of the underlying BOAC themes.....why didn't BOAC takeover the RAF Skymasters?....why Lancastrians not Yorks?........not being able to buy enough Constellations (was the Aer Linte Constellation purchase a 'back-door job' from the beginning?)....why was BOAC negative about the VC-7/V-1000? ...does he mention the unions at heathrow?
(Pre-war Imperial HAD responded to the arrival of the DC-2/DC-3 by ordering aluminium monoplanes off the drawing-board from Short's but made the strategic error of choosing flying-boats.... the inadequate DH Albatross and underpowered AW Ensign arrived too late to restore Imperial's fortunes. The pre-war BA had no qualms about buying American but were a smaller operation than Imperial.)

[WHBM]

I'm not particularly aware that the RAF had any Skymasters at all. Loads of DC3s (which BOAC did take) but not DC4s.

There weren't a lot of Yorks built, and the RAF seems to have wanted to keep those that were around. The Lancaster (and the Halifax) were however readily available for conversion. There were very few commercial passengers at this time, mostly government personnel. The York seems to have had the same payload as the Lancaster (it did after all have the same engines), just a greater space to put it in. At this perod carriage of mail was as important, if not more so, than the carriage of passengers.

Minimal number of Constellations (and Stratocruisers) was all about supporting British types and British manufacturing industry. The civil servants could not understand that the Tudor, the Hermes, and in fact just about every post-war attempt before the Viscount, were complete crocks. The Hermes cruisd with an attitude of about 20 degrees nose-upwards which ruined its economics and range (I believe this led to some passing crews overseas asking if everything was OK). Quite how such an elementary error could be made by anyone who got past Aircraft Design 1.01 at college I cannot imagine.

By the way, in case you think I'm being unpatriotic, what the French commercial manufacturing industry turned out between 1945 and the Caravelle was notably worse ! There were also some poor attempts from the USA.

[renfrew]

I have just received the book and am plowing my way through it.
I think I can see why it was suppressed ,it goes into the political problems in great detail.
The RAF did have a handful of Skymasters including a personal one for Churchill but almost nothing seems to have been written about their operations.
The book does mention that BOAC were interested in DC-4 and Constellation and of course ordered the latter.

[WHBM]

The Argonaut was of course an uprated DC4/Skymaster, with UK (Rolls Royce) engines, pressurisation, etc, and built in Canada, all to circumvent the critical shortage of US Dollar foreign exchange. They served BOAC particularly well and stood in for a range of supposedly better UK-built types over the years that followed.

I can't find a single Skymaster/C-54/DC4 in a production list of them which operated for the RAF. Didn't Churchill use a Liberator for major foreign visits ?

[Planemike]

Vic Flintham's book Aircraft in British Military Service indicates 232 Squadron operated 23 Douglas C-54 Skymasters 1944 - 46. Based at Palam in India. Guess they may not have been seen in European skies too often.

Planemike

[renfrew]

Churchill goes to War by Brian Lavery is excellent on his wartime travels.
It has photos of the Boeing 314,Liberator,York and Skymaster which he used.

[Groundloop]

Minimal number of Constellations (and Stratocruisers) was all about supporting British types and British manufacturing industry.

No it wasn't. As WHBM indicates Britain was bankrupt at the end of the War and did not want to spend valuable rare dollars if there was a home-grown "alternative". Hence the Canadian-built Argonaut with Rolls-Royce engines - very little US dollar content. BOAC would have loved more Connies - but there were no dollars available to buy them with.

Each time BOAC bought American aircraft (first the Constellation, then the Startocruiser and finally the DC-7C) they had to provide proof to the UK Government that they were being severely disadvantaged in competition with US and European airlines.

[Brian 48nav]

Thetfords 'Aircraft of the Royal Air Force' published by Putnams ( I think! Mine is a Book Club version) states 23 were in RAF service with 232 & 246 SQns on routes between UK and Far East, serial nos EW999,KL 977-986 and KL 988-999.

[A30yoyo]

The 24 Sqdn Newsletter has a piece on Churchill's Skymaster (interestingly it was an early model still with fuel tanks in the fuselage)
http://www.24sqnassociation.royalairforce.net/Downloads/24iss10.pdf
and there's a series of articles by Churchill's Navigator Wing Cmdr John Mitchell from about Issue 12 (mainly Yorks)
Newsletter Articles of 24 Sqn Association (http://www.24sqnassociation.royalairforce.net/newsltr.htm)

BOAC's competitor KLM had civilian DC-4s on order from Douglas and was loaned surplus C-54s by President Truman until they were delivered, operating as 'The Netherlands Government Air Service' they started flying to the Far East as early as November 1945

The Hermes/Hastings was Handley Page's response to the Skymaster....it probably didn't help the Hermes that it was delivered late and overtaken by the Canadair Argonaut which was delivered rapidly leaving BOAC with more than enough aircraft for a change....I can't believe the Hermes was as bad as it was painted ( surely not as much as 20 degrees nose-up attitude?)...the RAF got on OK with the Hastings

[Groundloop]

I can't believe the Hermes was as bad as it was painted ( surely not as much as 20 degrees nose-up attitude?)...the RAF got on OK with the Hastings

Back then the RAF were probably not much bothered about operating economics!

[WHBM]

I can't believe the Hermes was as bad as it was painted
Well I suppose the prototype's first flight (G-AGSS, December 1945) getting completely out of control on liftoff and crashing just three miles away, killing all the senior Handley Page test pilot crew, is some indication of the aerodynamic design issues.

[A30yoyo]

This webpage gives an idea of RAF Skymaster use in late 1945 and its replacement by Lancastrians
http://sforsugar.com/chapter5.html

[WHBM]

Thanks to the above I have dug out the details of the C-54 Skymasters with the RAF, whose existence I was attempting to deny. It would have helped if I had computer-searched my source for them, not as "RAF", but as "Royal Air Force", which is how they were listed :(

Most of them seem to have been with the RAF in India around 1945, transferred from the USAF, and later transferred back maybe 12 months later using the same USAF tail numbers as before, which sort of points to a loan arrangement rather than actual purchase. There were just a handful which look to have made it to European bases.

[A30yoyo]

The RAF Skymasters were lend-lease and were returned to the US in 1946 eventually going to the US Navy

One here, unidentified base
LIFE: War 1939-1945 World War Ii Air Uk Misc.Transport Etc - Hosted by Google (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?imgurl=73e0242728e25d0f)

[A30yoyo]

This lovely set by Mark Kauffman/LIFE was taken on the old Heathrow Northside tarmac....curious how the Comet gets its nosewheel off well before V1 (if it existed back then)
jet comet - Google Search (http://images.google.com/images?q=jet+comet&q=source%3Alife&biw=1440&bih=688)
Halfway down 28R with the Fairey Hangar and original Comet 1 hangars visible
LIFE: Jet Comet - Hosted by Google (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?imgurl=5502e428f0b4e7ea)

Presscall Northside....'Flight Crew' has BBC's aviation specialist Reginald Turnill on right in raincoat, I think
LIFE: Jet - Hosted by Google (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?imgurl=d01ab36b67fb45c4)
LIFE: Jet - Hosted by Google (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?imgurl=ea3017cc8f3bbbd2)
LIFE: Flight crew standing on the stairs of th... - Hosted by Google (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?imgurl=c2588e84da67eba3)
LIFE: BOAC executive Sir Gerard D'Erlanger. - Hosted by Google (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?imgurl=c6c5788894cc7192)

[Speedbird48]

In 1948/49 BOAC did in fact use four DC-4's (C54A) that were owned by the original Skyways Ltd. based at Dunsfold. They flew services to the Middle East and the Persian oil fields on behalf of BOAC, as well as some War Office charters.
They were G-AJPL, 'PM, 'PN, & 'PO. that were obtained from KLM and the survivors sold to Air France. G-AJPL crashed at Castel Benito in February 1949on a War Office charter.
They seemed to have a fairly poor serviceability record probably due to the UK goverment restricting Dollar purchases and therefore making getting spare parts a nightmare.
Speedbird48.

[A30yoyo]

There was a recent article about the Skyways DC-4 charter to BOAC by Peter Marson in Propliner magazine #121(BOAC and the Speedbird symbol were painted near the pax.door in addition to the Skyways paintsheme)...I think the Skyways DC-4s came from the batch loaned to the Dutch before their 'proper' civil-built fleet arrived Flickr: Search Stephen Greensted's photostream (http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=7691137@N06&q=DC4)
(Stephen Greensted's parents flew for Skyways, I believe)
Douglas DC-4 - G-AJPN - AirTeamImages.com (http://www.airteamimages.com/115478.html)

[Speedbird48]

A30yoyo,

There were a couple of runway overrun accidents with the Comet due to over rotation and wedge shaped pieces were added to the leading edges outboard of the engine intakes to cause airflow disruption over the tail, making it shake, if the pilot over rotated.
I believe the nose of one of those over rotation accidents,( Rome), was used in the Comet simulator that BOAC and eventually Dan Air had??
Your picture, given its position from the start of 28L, shows a good example of over rotation about to happen if he rotates any further.
V1 speed has all the wheels firmly on the ground, Vr is the rotate speed and then V2 etc. so this guy looks very premature unless he is at a very light weight?? But it could be before we used the V1, V2 etc, performance numbers??
Speedbird 48.

[Speedbird48]

My appologies to Peter Marson and Propliner where I had obtained some of the DC4 information.
I did however work for Skyways but not the Dunsfold version.
Speedbird 48.

[A30yoyo]

I think the Rome incident(s) involved the Comet I, didn't they?
I just found an obituary for David Davies (ARB/CAA) who insisted on Boeing increasing the fin area of the 707 before British Certification and and on having stick-pushers fitted to several T-tail airliners(Trident BAC One-Eleven, B727...) ...it records that one of his regrets was missing the tendency of the Comet I wing to stall if over-rotated.....what bearing it had on the Comet 4 and these photos of ,presumably, a full
-tank takeoff for the Atlantic,I don't know.
I think I watched this departure from the old Ground Enclosure in the Central Area

[BSAA1947]

WHBM - You said you were expecting comments for calling BSAA "a shambolic operation from beginning to end". Well, I've only just come across this thread, so I'm sorry for the rather tardy reply, but I hate to disappoint. :)

It's become very fashionable to mock BSAA and sadly there are many myths perpetuated about the airline by people who should know better. For instance when I read Jay Rayner's book 'Star Dust Falling' about the loss of G-AGWH in the Andes, I started to note down all the factual inaccuracies, but gave up when my list became so long I needed a new sheet of A4! It's unfortunate that I have since read many statements from people trying to rubbish BSAA which I recognise as direct quotes from that book. It clearly makes for more dramatic reading and sells more books to assert that BSAA pilots flew their airliners the same as they did their Lancasters on bombing missions, that engineering standards were poor, that Don Bennett ran the airline like a bomber squadron, that they lost an aircraft every month etc. Sadly, such mis-information gets widely repeated, and the lines between fact and fiction become all too easily blurred.

Many facts get conveniently overlooked, such as the fact that BSAA made a profit while BOAC and BEA recorded losses, that BOAC didn't want the South American routes until they realised BSAA had established the necessary infrastructure and could operate them profitably, that the very same BSAA engineers and pilots so widely criticised now went on to long careers in BOAC and BA, that BOAC and BEA lost far more aircraft than BSAA in the same period, that BSAA was the most successful civilian operator on the Berlin Airlift, that there is compelling evidence of a BOAC "dirty tricks" campaign against BSAA long before the Virgin Atlantic and BA fiasco ..... I could go on. Incidentally, I'm well aware of the statistics regarding BSAA losses. I know that although BOAC and BEA suffered more aircraft losses during the period of BSAA's existence, they operated far more flights, carrying more passengers. But look a little deeper into the BSAA losses to put things slightly more in perspective. You'll find the cause of the first major accident, to Avro York 'Star Leader', was never conclusively determined. A Lancastrian accident on take-off at Bathurst was due to the PSP 'runway' being laid on unstable sand. No passengers were injured. The two Tudors were lost without any cause being determined, as no trace of wreckage was ever found. In another accident a Lancastrian reached Bermuda to find the airport in the middle of a thunderstorm (contrary to the earlier weather forecast) and had to circle for ninety minutes before being forced to attempt a landing in atrocious conditions. The skill of the pilot resulted in no passengers being injured. The Lancaster loss at Heathrow was a groundloop after landing from a training flight. There were no injuries to the four crew on board. These accidents alone account for over half of the total number of BSAA aircraft lost. But again, it would not be fashionable to admit that as well as making some mistakes BSAA also suffered more than their share of bad luck.

I must admit to having an interest in defending the airline, its employees and the way it was run. My late father worked for BSAA, before a long career in BOAC and BA. In addition, my sister and I spent many years researching the airline and its history, during which time we unearthed thousands of pages of interesting documents and were lucky enough to meet dozens of ex-BSAA staff, the majority of whom shared their fond memories of BSAA with us and their almost universal respect for Don Bennett and his management style.

So yes, BSAA was not without flaws, but it does a dis-service to the pioneering spirit of its surviving employees to repeat the familiar "shambolic operation" quotes without delving into the detail to gain a fuller picture.

There. You wanted a comment, and got a rather longer one than intended. But at least I can get down from my soap box now. :)

[tornadoken]

A3yy/#8: "themes"
Why no BOAC C-54s? If US had cared to offer UK the option of retaining the 11 C-54 actually delivered before VE Day, as-new $ sums would have been charged. UK had no $. C-47s were offered as is, where is as scrap, so we very happily took many. UK's 1946 Reconstruction Loan, which extinguished net Lend/Lease liabilities, included a hefty C$ element, from which the airframes of Canadian Vickers' pressurised, Merlin (D)C-4M were funded as Argonaut.
Why Lancastrians, not Yorks? BOAC flew both types, York to 1957 (to 1961 sub-contract freight by Skyways).
Why not enough Connies?. It took from April,1944 to February,1946 for UK and US to agree on Civil Air Transport (the Bermuda Convention, Freedoms of the Air). US tied the assignment of L-049 delivery positions to Nations' co-operation in granting US carriers market access. New Aerlinte hoped to sell tickets London-(Shannon)-NY, and new (to be) SAS hoped to sell Scandinavia-(London-Prestwick)-NY as Fifth Freedom/Open Skies, so the States of those 2 very small home markets offered co-operation to US, and ordered Connies and Stratocruisers. Bermuda proved not to be at all Open, so UK was able to take those orders over for £. Later dribble-purchases of US types were hard-fought, with BOAC needing to self-$-finance from revenue. UK had no $.
Why was BOAC negative on VC7? Why would it not be? No V-Bomber wing found civil application. H.Wynn, Hist.of RAF Transport Command: Forged in War,HMSO,1996,P96: weight “would prevent (it) providing required payload/range.” “cancelled (as) I could not find a customer. BOAC did not want(/RAF) could not afford it” MoS R.Maudling, Memoirs, Sidgwick,1978, P62.
Wot About the Unions? Well, wot? The causes of BOAC's near-constantly dismal financial performance were not caused (wholly/solely) by Unions' restrictive practices.

The only theme constant through BOAC's existence was the conflict between:
a): its status as parastatal Designated Instrument of Foreign Policy, and:
b): its owner's wish that it employ its owners: “(You can) have an airline run as a competitive, keen commercial concern using the best available equipment, or you can have it as a shop window for aircraft you would not normally purchase.” “To expect a Co. to do something (not) wholly commercial {=feed the natives}, then, when it has lost money doing it, to expect to pay interest on that money is bloody crazy.” 9/62 Chairman Sir M.Slattery of £14Mn.loss: his irate Minister suggested he speak to the Specifier. H.Penrose, Wings Across the World, Cassell,1980, Pp.195,223

[A30yoyo]

Vickers should have had more faith in the VC-7/V-1000 and completed it as a Private Venture

[A30yoyo]

Perhaps this label comes from the BSAA period as it doesn't show South America so maybe 1948?
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5225/5587069824_da34b4fb47_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/74784995@N00/5587069824/)
BOAC-label ca1950 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/74784995@N00/5587069824/) by A30yoyo (http://www.flickr.com/people/74784995@N00/), on Flickr
and it was on this vintage suitcase
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5296/5587069446_0d5901f680_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/74784995@N00/5587069446/)
Well-travelled Suitcase (http://www.flickr.com/photos/74784995@N00/5587069446/) by A30yoyo (http://www.flickr.com/people/74784995@N00/), on Flickr

[WHBM]

BSAA1947 :

I am, in fact, very grateful for your account of this actually quite short-lived forbear to BOAC. I wouldn't judge something I didn't know (for it was long before I even existed) on just one account, but have built up a composite view based on a whole range of accounts, plus some direct analysis of the fleet and operations, actual and aborted. A series of articles in Propliner magazine about 25 years ago by a former manager at the airline was a good eye-opener.

But I still think, even when compared to its contemporaties of the time rather than current standards, that it was just an unsustainable operation all round.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I am reading Peter Masefields autobiography. According to that...

Why Lancastrians and not Yorks?

Because the York didn't have the range of the Lancastrian.

Masefield also says he was trying to broker a deal wherby Bristol would produce Centaurus-engined Connies for BOAC. It fell through becuase Stafford Cripps claimed we had no dollars to do the deal. Just before he announced the purchase of Lockheed-built Connies with P&W engines for the airline!

Mind you, reading about the company later in his book, it's unlikely that Bristol would have had the gumption to produce a Connie before the 747 was in service! 10:00am starts, years to solve problems the US was solving in weeks, the 'family' in Filton House not dirtying their hands with stuff like balance sheets, and 'the family' undermining the few knowlegable and able people in the company 'because they were getting too big for their boots'.

[WHBM]

Masefield also says he was trying to broker a deal wherby Bristol would produce Centaurus-engined Connies for BOAC.
Both the BOAC Stratocruisers and the Connies seem to have been flown to and from Fiton quite a bit over the years (several accounts and photos) Did Bristol get involved in their product support at all after purchase ?

[renfrew]

The Constellations were originally based at Dorval with the Liberators but had to be brought back to the UK due shortage of dollars.
There was no hangar space at Heathrow so Filton was chosen and the Stratocruisers went there also.

[tornadoken]

BOAC American Aircraft Engineering Centre moved in 1949 from Montreal to Filton, alongside Line 3 HQ, staying there to 1954.

In 1946 Canada was evolving (DC-4, to be) C-4M under licence, France was exploring a DC-6 licence, and UK one for Bristol Connie. That would have been L-649/Centaurus, L-849/Theseus and is my greatest what if in UK Aero. That came to Cabinet (Cripps, MP for Bristol East, there as President of the Board of Trade) for Approval of the $ spend (set-up/royalty/parts), 22/4/47 precisely as we addressed the prospect of collapse of £1:$4. US Reconstruction Loan of July,1946 carried a commitment to render £ convertible within 12 months. Its C$ element included an offer, accepted by Govt. July,1948, for C-4M airframes for BOAC, where engines would be £.

Cabinet judged other things, like food, and timber for housing, took higher call on UK's feeble $ capacity. Each actual import of $-denominated aircraft, like BOAC's L-049s, was close-fought, required to be evidently self-$-financed from ticket sales. £ was made convertible 15/7/47, reneged on after a month as it gurgled. It was devalued £1:$2.8 in 1949 and :$2.4 in 1967, but not made freely convertible until 1979.

[WHBM]

I believe this is a Lancastrian service (the types were not shown) from a June 1946 timetable in my collection.

London : 1145 Tu
Lydda : 0200/0400 We
Karachi : 1530/1730 We
Singapore : 0930/1130 Th
Darwin : 2300/0130 Fr
Sydney : 1030 Fr

Three times a week departing Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday. You would need at least four aircraft to maintain the schedule. For the times, these seem some very long nonstop legs, and indeed a very fast trip to Australia. I would guess the York couldn't have made those sectors.

[Brit312]

Shaggy Sheep driver

Just before he announced the purchase of Lockheed-built Connies with P&W engines for the airline!

Just a little correction in that, with the exception of 4 aircraft, all Connies flew with one mark or other of the Wright 3350.

Now back in 1942, due to problems with the 3350 and supplies of that engine going first to the B-29, Lockheed did offer the military the chance to fit the
P & W R-2800 engine to the Connie but this was not taken up

After the war and with the forth coming introduction of the DC-6 Lockheed offered ALL the airlines the choice of 3 different engines so as to keep the Connie competative with this DC-6. These engines were

P&W R-2800 [2,200 HP] Wright 3350 [ 2200 hp] Bristol Centaurus [2300 hp]

However no airline took up any of the options and all stuck with the 3350

The exceptions were 4 aircraft, originally all for the US Navy, which were fitted with four P & W T34-P-6 turbo props which had 6,000 shaft HP each.These aircraft known as R7Vs were to evaluate the long range operation of turbo props and two of them were given to the US airforce where they were called C-121G. The airframe for these four aircraft was a Super Connie design

[Fareastdriver]

Overotation on the Comet was caused by the fashion then of raising the nosewheel early on the take off roll and letting the aircraft fly itself off. This act alone increases the take off distance because of the increased induced drag. As the end of the runway gets closer so the nose is raised even more.

etc etc.

[A30yoyo]

A question.....Britain back in the 40s had no oil...very little anyway....did it have to be paid for in dollars?...If so was the higher fuel cost per ton-mile of converted bombers taken into account in purchasing decisions?

[A30yoyo]

By Brian Doherty who worked in the Kremlin and the Sales office in Regent St
Air-Britain : brian doherty boac (http://www.abpic.co.uk/results.php?q=brian+doherty+boac&fields=all&sort=latest&limit=50)

and by Frank Hudson, a Cargo Manager at LHR
Air-Britain : frank hudson boac (http://www.abpic.co.uk/results.php?q=frank+hudson+boac&fields=all&sort=latest&limit=50)

[tornadoken]

A30yy: I doubt it. Masefield's Flight Path has a Chapter on Economics, where he presents his efforts with a slide rule, demonstrating impossibility of Tudor I/Hermes I breakeven, as the only such exercise on WW2 UK transports. (Some UK POL was £-sourced from Trinidad, Abadan).

[Brit312]

A question.....Britain back in the 40s had no oil...very little anyway....did it have to be paid for in dollars?...If so was the higher fuel cost per ton-mile of converted bombers taken into account in purchasing decisions

A30 ,, I do not have the answer to your question but although the UK in the 40s and 50s had not found oil in the North Sea it did control large areas where oil had been found [ Persian Gulf ] and these areas were in the Sterling Area which meant that transactions were done in British Pounds.

[WHBM]

In post-war Briain there was a huge merchant navy fleet, almost all oil-fuelled by this time, which picked up bunkers all around the world sometimes thousands of tons at a time. There was also the RAF whose aircraft fleet dwarfed the penny numbers of civilian airliners, and of course the Navy, who needed their own ocean-going tankers to keep them fuelled between ports. I doubt the consumption of foreign exchange for commercial Avgas came very far up the financial radar at all.

[A30yoyo]

The book 'Croydon Airport and the Battle for Britain' (Cluett, Bogle.Learmonth) has an account of the infant BOAC's transfer from Croydon and Heston to Bristol Whitchurch and some very rare photos of Airways aircraft in camouflage back at Croydon in November 1939 to ferry crew and equipment to France for 607 and 615 squadrons

1000 aircraft photos has acquired a set of photos of BOAC aircraft in Egypt in 1944
Lockheed 18 Lodestar (http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/10798.htm)
Avro 685 York C.Mk.I (http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/10511.htm)
Consolidated 32 LB-30 Liberator Mk.III (http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/10512.htm)
Lockheed 18-07 Lodestar (http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/10514.htm)
Douglas DC-3 (http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/10513.htm)

and the (BOAC) fleet's in at Lisbon Portela about October 1943

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4045/4647575772_ca7774e81c_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/biblarte/4647575772/)
Aeroporto de Lisboa, Portugal (http://www.flickr.com/photos/biblarte/4647575772/) by Biblioteca de Arte-Fundação Calouste Gulbenkian (http://www.flickr.com/people/biblarte/), on Flickr
larger on
All sizes | Aeroporto de Lisboa, Portugal | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/biblarte/4647575772/sizes/o/in/photostream/)

[renfrew]

Thank you for these BOAC photos.It is a shame that so few seem to have been taken at that time.
It is always the same ones that turn up and it is a treat to see something new.
I have seen a similar Lisbon one in a book and have always presumed that the aircraft were stuck perhaps due bad weather in UK.

[A30yoyo]

Hallo renfrew.....hope you don't mind me chucking BOAC topics onto your thread like this....sometimes it works in clarifying an idea or bringing up previously unpublished photos. Yes, there is a photo of that Lisbon line-up from another angle in the Ian Allan Pictorial History of BOAC dated October 1943 I think and yet another closer view as header pic in an old Aeroplane Monthly article on BOAC at war. My hunch was it was connected with a big conference in the Middle East but it could just be weather, as you say. The DC-3 on the far left is one of the pre-war KLM fleet operating the Bristol-Lisbon service for BOAC, looks like G-AGBD 'Buizerd', the rest are lend-lease Dakotas and Liberators

[A30yoyo]

A thread tangent....might be a BOAC Dak in there!...what you find lower down on Google Images
Aeroporto da Portela - Galeria (http://www.meteopt.com/galeria/showphoto.php/photo/395/cat/500/ppuser/3)

[A30yoyo]

It could be argued that the biggest error Imperial Airways made was to order flying boats as a response to the Douglas DC-2/DC-3 and it took BOAC till about 1948 to finally abandon them
LIFE: La Guardia Airport - Hosted by Google (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?imgurl=64c028a70b50b424)

[renfrew]

Wonderful,and I see that there are more views attached.
This would have been the summer of 1940.

I can only remember one other colour pic which was of a Boeing 314.

[A30yoyo]

This one?
Boeing 314 A Flying Boat (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8270787@N07/3545139345/) by Etiennedup (http://www.flickr.com/people/8270787@N07/), on Flickr

It's probably scanned from a book or magazine....there were a couple of colour photos in Aeroplane Monthly of BOAC Empire boats on the Nile ca. 1945....in Geoff Reichelt's webpage
Short S23 C Class Empire Flying Boats (http://www.airwaveyachts.com.au/Aircraft/c_class.html)

also see
http://www.seawings.co.uk/

[A30yoyo]

There's been some discussion in Aeroplane Monthly and on other learned forums about the wartime use of the title 'British Airways' on aircraft and equipment (e.g. boats, see above) rather than the official company name British Overseas Airways Corporation.... the issue was sometimes dodged by the use of the Speedbird symbol only.

[A30yoyo]

Nice shot of an RAF Skymaster on
Wings Over New Zealand - Classic NZ Airliners (photo thread) (http://rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=civil&action=display&thread=12612&page=4)

and shots of the Lancastrians BOAC got instead on
Wings Over New Zealand - Classic NZ Airliners (photo thread) (http://rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=civil&action=display&thread=12612&page=3)

the whole splendid archive from New Zealand worth a look

[A30yoyo]

Reviving 'renfrew's' thread , perhaps....there's a nice set of photos on flickr relating to Captain Roger (RP) Mollard, BOAC Durban and G-AFCI Golden Hind
Flickr: picnic50's Photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/76971536@N08/page5/)

I wonder if the rare Winston Bray book has much to say on the wartime BOAC for instance the persistence of the British Airways name

[boaccomet4]

BOAC operated Comet 4 aircraft from 1958 and then withdrew them from service in 1965. By then they were operating B707's and eventually the VC10. I had the please of flying First Class from Sydney (Australia) to Auckland (New Zealand) as a 12yo boy. In those days the Comet was the only jet able to used Auckland airport and they were still constructing the larger one capable of handling B707's,DC8's etc. Being a veteran Viscount traveller I was amased at the way I as pushed back in my seat during the takeoff run. The sound of those Rolls Royce Avons was exciting aswell. I still have the First Class Menu, in flight magazine and the signed Junior Jet Club logbook. I wonder what they would be worth today. There was a definite grace and pride amongst the cabin crew and the cockpit crew were friendly aswell. BOAC was well respected then I think. The air hostesses looked great in their smart navy uniforms with white gloves and airforce type hats.

[avionic type]

The merger of B.E.A.and B.O.A.C. went down like a lead balloon amongst those of us in the lower orders our working practices were so different ,in the central area, we in BEA had merged trades and when we were trained Electrical/ Instrument personell carried out Pre Departure checks, refuelling,an pushbacks which BOAC never did to my knowledge and never changed their working practices and got the same rates of pay. As our Chief Engineer the late John (Polly)Perkins said untill the last old BEA/BOAC engineer dies the old arguments will still rage on.:{:{:{

[renfrew]

Re the use of British Airways rather than BOAC.
According to Winston Bray's book Sir John Reith claimed to have originated the full name.
In 1941 the Director-General Leslie Runciman instructed that the Corporation was to be known simply as British Airways.
In 1944 a new management restored the Speedbird and the full name.

I was BOAC and although BEA was a sister corporation the two companies often seemed to be barely on speaking terms.
As a small example when I started staff travel was available on just about any airline in the world-except BEA.

[The SSK]

Where I was, there was a fair bit of interaction and cross-fertilisation. Both airlines had a very similar 3-year General Apprenticeship scheme, with the BEA and BOAC groups (each 30-50 strong) being merged for the academic parts of the course at Ealing or Slough Techs, so a lot of close friendships were forged at that stage. I shared a flat with three BEA guys. Then there was the Salford Uni Transport Admin course which was jointly supported by the two airlines. In my year there were three BOAC and two BEA people.

Then in the seventies, round about merger time, there were quite a few of my ex BEA pals around Speedbird House or down the longhaul routes.

[tomba]

Looking for any information on Neville James B Thomson was born on 05 Jun 1931 in Kingston, Surrey, Kent died in Aug 1988, Lewisham, London, England Neville was a senior flight engineer with BOAC, and worked on the Comet project. He was on the inaugural flight from London to Paris, and was appointed the Flight engineer to the Queen’s Flight (in the crew whenever the Royal family flew). there was also a photo of him being decorated by the Queen: however I think that's been lost somewhere can anyone help out with any info or direct me in the right direction

thanks

[Mike6567]

The History of BOAC 1939-1974.
BRAY, Winston.
Just for information there is a copy of this book available via abebooks - rather pricey though.
Mike

[Mlw1977]

Hi my grandfather who used to work and inventented the airline ticket computer system for boac died recently and I acquired this book and was interest in what the value will be please. And it's in pretty perfect condition

[Jhieminga]

There is a single copy on Ebay at a pretty steep price. I would not use that as a guide. It appears to be a pretty rare book, but I doubt that anyone who is interested in this topic will be forking over that amount. Because of its rarity, you should not sell it for a fiver, but as for what price to put on it... that's anyone's guess. If you want a proper valuation, get in touch with the Aviation Bookstore and ask Simon.

[Mlw1977]

There is a single copy on Ebay at a pretty steep price. I would not use that as a guide. It appears to be a pretty rare book, but I doubt that anyone who is interested in this topic will be forking over that amount. Because of its rarity, you should not sell it for a fiver, but as for what price to put on it... that's anyone's guess. If you want a proper valuation, get in touch with the Aviation Bookstore and ask Simon.thank you I spoke to him he said he would buy it for £50 would it be better putting it on eBay

[chevvron]

In 1944, BOAC were allocated shared use of 2 airfields, Aldermaston and Hurn, in readiness for civil flying to re-generate after the end of WW2.
Services to be provided were commercial flying training and engineering and Flying Control training.
The Flying Control element moved from Aldermaston to Hurn at the end of 1948 and was re named the School of Air Traffic Control whilst flying operations moved there too, presumably due to the allocation of Aldermaston for use as the Atomic Weapons Research Establishment..

[Jhieminga]

thank you I spoke to him he said he would buy it for £50 would it be better putting it on eBay
Good question, you might get a better price that way, but there's also a chance that it won't sell. Difficult to say.

[renfrew]

It is essential reading for anyone seriously interested in BOAC,written by a senior insider.
The current E-Bay prices are way over the top.
It does have flaws though as it was privately published and appears never to have been proof-read.
There are a lot of silly minor errors,lines repeated and wrong dates which should have been picked up.

[Planemike]

The current E-Bay prices are way over the top..
Seller is known for being overpriced.

[Planemike]

thank you I spoke to him he said he would buy it for £50 would it be better putting it on eBay
Nothing much to lose.... I believe you can put a ""reserve price"" on items....