ABC Helicopter crash near Lake Eyre

[blueys]

The ABC helicopter NTV involved in fatal accident.

all thoughts to families.

[mostlytossas]

Reports coming in of a helicopter crash with 3 fatalities just east of Lake Eyre. Crash occured approx 7.30 pm CST and is believed to be an ABC film crew.
It has not been a good week for aviation.

[strim]

ABC film crew out of Sydney.

Filmed some amazing things of late including comprehensive coverage of QLD floods.

This is a big loss for both the aviation & media communities. Very sad.

[glekichi]

Rescue chopper heading out that way just a while ago? Possible survivors?

[Tidbinbilla]

ABC crew killed in chopper crash - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-18/abc-helicopter-crashes-at-lake-eyre/2845962)

The ABC is mourning the loss of three well-known and highly respected figures after veteran journalist Paul Lockyer, pilot Gary Ticehurst and cameraman John Bean died in a helicopter crash in remote South Australia.

The ABC crew's helicopter crashed around 7:30pm yesterday near Lake Eyre in South Australia's north.

The crash was reported by a remote outpost about 150 kilometres north-west of Marree, where the ABC helicopter had been operating.

A rescue helicopter including police investigators was sent to the crash site.
It is not known yet what caused the crash, but there have been reports of bad weather in the area.

Aviation investigators will leave Canberra and Brisbane for the crash site this morning.

Lockyer was one of the ABC's most experienced journalists with an award-winning career spanning more than 40 years locally and internationally.

Ticehurst is a legend among media pilots - he served the ABC for more than 25 years and was well liked by all who flew with him.

Brisbane-based cameraman Bean has worked for the ABC for 20 years across a diverse range of programs in news and entertainment, including international assignments.

[Desert Flower]

The ABC crew's helicopter crashed around 7:30pm yesterday near Lake Eyre in South Australia's north.

I knew Gary well. Still trying to figure out why they were flying at that time of night though - well & truly dark then.

DF.

[Kulwin Park]

Still trying to figure out why they were flying at that time of night though - well & truly dark then

It was a twin engine IFR helicopter with all the gizmo's on board for doing that media and 24hr reaction news reporting, and flying in most weather - don't see a problem with flying at dark - tho limited navaids around.

[VH-XXX]

Warning - Graphic photo in this article of the end result.

Paul Lockyer among three ABC crew killed in chopper crash at Lake Eyre | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/three-killed-in-helicopter-crash-at-lake-eyre-in-south-australias-far-north/story-fn7x8me2-1226117756539)

[Desert Flower]

tho limited navaids around.

Limited navaids? That is an understatement if there ever was one. No navaids is more like it.

DF.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Limited navaids? That is an understatement if there ever was one. No navaids is more like it.

Hard to see what that would have to do with anything!

One would assume that that chopper would have had a portable GPS at worst and a TSO145 GPS at best. What more would you need?

Dr :8

[Airey Belvoir]

What more would you need?


Looking at the pictures I would suspect a little more height and a little less forward air speed.

[HarleyD]

What more would you need?

EGPWS?......


HD

[VH-XXX]

GPS still works in the outback!

I'm not a crash investigator but it certainly seems like something happened at a high speed. Is it too early to suggest dark night, next to a large lake, lack of towns and visual references... wouldn't be the first time for a chopper, regardless of experience.

Last light from my calc was 6:19pm.

Based on the pictures he appears to fly with a 296/396/495 on the dash.

[HarleyD]

Reports say 1930 accident

last light 1835

moonrise 2200

no ground lighting for visual reference

high speed shallow descent trajectory indications (speculated) from pic

................

[havick]

Does anyone know the intended destination?

Sad to see another fatality indeed.

[Nigel Osborn]

Maybe he flew into a big flock of large waterbirds that now live there.

[VH-XXX]

There was mention somewhere in one of the articles that they were on their way to meet with a boat somewhere down a river or on the edge of the lake. Accident happened not long after speaking with a local tour guide so you could half devise they were looking for a destination.

[mickk]

Terrible tragedy, mechanical failure at altitude for sure. Gary could land a chopper upsidedown on an egg cup if he had to.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/2847426-3x2-700x467.jpg

[Desert Flower]

Gary could land a chopper upsidedown on an egg cup if he had to.

Don't know about upside down on an egg cup, but I do remember him having a skirmish with the top of a vehicle once & ripping a skid or skids off!

DF.

[havick]

Thanks XXX, does anyone know if the intent was to conduct an out landing at night and if so was the aircraft fitted with a serviceable nightsun or nodded for use with NVG's and the approvals to use said aids below LSALT?

Before anyone jumps down my throat, there's no malice intended. I'm not speculating or making any assumptions, just curious about any facts about the tragedy.

[thorn bird]

Gas old mate, you were the best of the best, and natures gentleman, I learned so much about safety management on the few occasions we worked together. RIP mate, this must be something outside your control, I hope they find out what really caused this before the pontificating buffoons carve you up. Thanks for the memories.

[Desert Flower]

Outback tour operator Rex Ellis witnessed the crash and was the first person to see the devastating crash site from the ground.

Mr Ellis, speaking on 891 ABC Adelaide to Matthew Abraham and David Bevan, said the ABC news crew took off from Pelican Island in the Cooper Creek inlet about 7.05pm for Muloorina Station, to the south.

It was out of sight within a minute before he saw an orange glow behind sand dunes.

"They took off and circled around ... it didn't appear like a normal sort of exit," Mr Ellis said.

"They went pretty low and out of sight behind dunes. We didn't hear anything, just saw a glow."

So yes, definitely an outlanding at night. Don't know about the nightsun etc.

DF.

[havick]

Desertflower, that's not exactly the type of response I was expecting.

[VH-XXX]

Doesn't appear to have a nightsun based on this pic.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/2846534-3x2-700x467.jpg

[Desert Flower]

Desertflower, that's not exactly the type of response I was expecting.

Then what WERE you expecting? You asked if the intent was to conduct an outlanding at night, & I quoted what was written in today's Adelaide Advertiser.

DF.

[foqa]

It also had a GNS430

[compressor stall]

Is it possible to get the somatogravic illusion in a chopper?

If it was a fixed wing 2-3nm off the end of a runway on a dark night with a high speed impact, it would have to be a possibility.

[ozbiggles]

Classy stuff
Little more than a black smudge on the ground a 1000km from anywhere and people think they can solve this one.....

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Little more than a black smudge on the ground a 1000km from anywhere and people think they can solve this one.....

Its not that hard - unfortunately!

Dr :8

[ozbiggles]

Really? Figured it out from the information to hand?
I was going to say impressive, but its not the word I'd use.

[Jabawocky]

Well it's either a really bad mechanical disaster, and it might be, or simply a monumental cockup, which is easy enough, even with the immense experience he had.

Have to agree with the Dr .....unfortunately.:sad:

Sad loss to the Austalian community, a these guys in the media did far more good than the rest have.

[Rusty1970]

Based on the pictures he appears to fly with a 296/396/495 on the dash. Been a while since I have been in NTV but from memory you're right it had a 396.

And no Nightsun.

Though as I said, it was a few years ago.

I think that picture is relatively recent as that looks like the new paint job.

Didn't know John (the cameraman) well but all three were fantastic people and will be very greatly missed at the ABC.

[ReverseFlight]

Actually I think a night sun would be of little use in navigation - it's really for pinpointing things on the ground. The flat terrain at the site is very much like doing night SAR at sea - no fixes and very little depth perception.

RIP, what a tragic loss.

[Sunfish]

Rumor from the television side of the project is that there was some sort of mechanical failure/fire on board.

May not be true.

[havick]

Reverse flight.. I guess what I was trying to piece together in my own mind is the reasoning behind flogging around out there at night if in they were in fact planning to land in an unlit area. (I don't know about the final destination being unlit as Desert Flower's extract points out that they were heading back to a Station which may very well have been a lit area).

yes I agree with you, nightsuns are not used for enroute navigation. but a nightsun or the use of NVG's are usually a CASA / ops manual requirement to be able to land a helo in an unlit area if said operation has the approvals and ops manual that allows it.

I'm not speculating on the cause, because I have no idea and do not wish to speculate. I feel for all the families.

[VH-XXX]

Ultimately there was Sunfish yes, it's just debatable as to whether it was pre or post impact.

Foqa- didn't mean to suggest it didn't have a 430 or similar, but rather had a 396 which is the pseudo industry standard for experienced operators these days.

I'll draw conclusions for when the report comes out in late 2012. I've read enough reports to guess what it will say. Tongue in cheek but those around for a while know the drill. The frustrating part is that we will probably never know what really happened apart from the obvious waste of life.

Pilot suitably experienced and well rested but possibly limited recent NVFR time, unable to be determined based on flight records.
Flight departed after last light.
Tail rotor in-tact.
Main rotor in-tact.
Engine/s capable of delivering power and no evidence of catastrophic failure existed.
References to disorientation.
No information from instruments and gps equipment due to post impact fire.
If mechanical failure was a contributor, not enough height was available to perform a successful auto-rotation.
Similarities drawn to this and the other recent helicopter NVFR fatalities and the existing ATSB findings including the SAR chopper that went down off the coast of QLD.

[onetrack]

Somewhat ironic and maybe even a pointer, John Beans great photos of Lake Eyre ominously show an aircraft wreck on the salt lake, with the footnote... "The plane was put into the lake in the flood of 1990 when the pilot lost his horizon in the blurred reflection of water and sky."

Journey to the Lake Country (http://www.accidentallyoutback.com.au/galleries/journey-to-the-lake-country)

I note that the area where the chopper went down is extremely marshy, with the first party on the scene having to access the crash site by boat. Areas of shallow water and moonlight can lead to nasty eye tricks.

The other side of the ledger is that Gary had been flying for 40 years, in a high-stress job, and was old enough to have the possibility of a hidden medical problem.
A stroke or heart attack will incapacitate you in seconds, and there was no-one alongside Gary who could grab the controls and recover, if he'd suffered sudden medical incapacitation.

The only thing we know is that the chopper flew into the ground at high speed, and that can only mean sudden and severe mechanical failure, sudden pilot incapacitation, or the pilot losing orientation.
Loss of orientation must be relatively low on the list, due to Garys extensive experience. He must surely have encountered similar situations hundreds of times, and would have known exactly what the score was, in those conditions.

[PLovett]

Based only on what has been said on this thread a POSSIBLE scenario is a tail rotor failure shortly after takeoff but possibly just enough airspeed to try and fly it on, in the dark and without much in the way of forward lights.

I met Gary briefly twice, once in Hobart where he was covering the Sydney to Hobart and also at William Creek in 2009. It just seems so unfair. :(

[Desert Flower]

Areas of shallow water and moonlight can lead to nasty eye tricks.

There was no moonlight at that time of the night - the moon didn't rise until nearly 10PM.

DF.

[VH-XXX]

News reports are now showing animation highlighting a loss of tailrotor control with a sideways impact. Pretty quick to come up with that.

[What-ho Squiffy!]

Three possibilities (in order of probability), two of which not covered as yet:

CFIT
Pilot incapacitation
Fuel contamination/starvation
Mechanical failure

[Nigel Osborn]

I don't think it would have burnt like that if he had no fuel.

[mickjoebill]

My comments are from an aerial filming perspective as to what the crew may have been doing and is based on the eyewitness report, so should be read with skepticism..

Loss of orientation must be relatively low on the list,

ABC chopper had a mechanically stabilised camera rig installed in the right hand rear door. John sat beside the camera and its angle of view is obviously restricted to the right hand side.
So one should consider that often the aircraft needs to be flown in unusual configurations when filming from a side door (compared to using a stabilised nose mount). Gary probably had more experience of flying a camera in this manner (sideways) than anyone else in Australia.

But no indication as yet if they were filming when they took off. Eyewitnesses should have been able to see if the door was open so I hope this question can be answered promptly.
Direction of the orbit is a clue, if they flew an anti clockwise obit around the camp they weren't shooting the camp as the camera would be facing the outside of the orbit.

I could imagine that a wide shot of the camp, no doubt illuminated by campfire or battery lanterns would be a good shot and at least worth a look on the way out, which may explain the orbit.
I'm not sure if their SOP was to take off and land with the door closed and then open it in flight.

"They took off and circled around ... it didn't appear like a normal sort of exit," Mr Ellis said This could be explained if they were shooting a departure shot of the camp and so had to crab tail to the left which can look weird to a casual observer.

"They went pretty low and out of sight behind dunes.

Flying low would give a good shot of the reflection of the camp lights in the water (assuming that there was water near the campsite)

If the dunes were fairly close to the camp (say under 1km) Gary could have been repositioning for a "reveal" shot of the camp by setting up the chopper behind the dunes, although the dunes would have been quite dark and a night time reveal does not generally fit into the conventional editing together of a daylight sequence.
Another possibility of the cause of them going low could have been a decision to land near the dunes so John could have setup an elevated, long lens tripod shot of the camp.

Rumor from the television side of the project is that there was some sort of mechanical failure/fire on board.
A bit early for such speculation, in any case the investigators could ask if a camera battery light was in use during ground filming after sunset. Tungsten bulb versions of these battery lights have in the past started a fire when accidently bumped/switched on whilst stowed in a camera bag.

I truly hope the case is a flukey mechanical failure. In any event with the loss of such an experienced low level filming pilot, who will be hard to replace, ABC should reconsider the merits of shooting from a side door.



Mickjoebill

[amos2]

Boys will be boys whatever their age and experience...especially out in the bush after a days work and heading off to finish the night with good friends, a meal and a bottle of wine only a short distance away.

We've all been there, done that, haven't we?

[Capt Fathom]

Boys will be boys whatever their age and experience...especially out in the bush after a days work and heading off to finish the night with good friends, a meal and a bottle of wine only a short distance away.
We've all been there, done that, haven't we?

Have we?

did they camp on the cooper overnight? if so whats the possibility of rats eating wiring in the plane which could cause problems?

Has anyone considered aliens? :ugh:

Come on you guys! Give it a rest.
Let's just wait for the official inquiry!

[jas24zzk]

Capt Fathom,
you are pretty much right.


Mickjoebill.....make up your mind son.....your mother didn't give you that many names!!! :}
Further to Capt Fathom above, I enjoyed reading your post. It showed some elements of the sort of things a newsie pilot would be considering pre-flight that many of us would never even contemplate. It was certainly a good read. Thankyou for taking your time to post.

Jas

[Antsl]

For the moment only one person has mentioned a possible bird-strike. I was camping over at Lake Eyre in June and I experienced two relevant incidents.

One was a bird-strike in a C208 while a pax on an afternoon scenic flight. I was in the front right seat... conditions were good, we were flying north west at about 2500 ft. when in a moment I noticed two birds in front of us and one second later there was a bang as one of them hit the leading edge of the wing. There was no obvious damage when we landed but it was amazing how quickly it happened.

The second incident might be more relevant though. We were camped near the punt on the Cooper Creek and one night I kayaked 10 kilometres from the road end of Lake Warrawarrinna back across to our camp. I left on sunset and had a full moon, perfect still conditions and a GPS to find the camp.

About 7.30 at night... in darkness except for the moonlight I encountered a large flock of pelicans and they took to the air. If a kayaker paddling in near silence is enough to get a couple of hundred pelicans into the air... what would they do with a helicopter coming towards them at 100 knots?

My condolences to the families and friends of three great men. In today's world it was just great to see three men, with the support of the ABC, committing to such a beautiful project.

[Captain Nomad]

Saw the re-run of ABC's 7:30 report tribute to these guys today. It's a shame more people on here couldn't extend some of the same empathy that these professionals were known for - irrespective of the causal factors of the crash.

[xma007]

Totally agree Capt.
Let's leave it to ATSB TO WORK OUT WHAT WENT WRONG.
RIP guy's.
It was a pleasure to work with you guy's.:sad:

[Olive61]

Gary Ticehurst. A wonderful gentleman, a class act all round, and an extraordinary aviator. I didn't know the other two gentlemen, but my condolences to their families and friends. RIP Tice, say G'day to Lizard for me, and let the clowns pontificate.

[mickjoebill]

30 minute tribute programm airing NOW on news 24, watch online.

Lockyer described the helicopter as "the armchair of the nation"

Mickjoebill

[What-ho Squiffy!]

Is there a rule that stipulates everyone in the forum must have a swig when anyone says:

"...let's wait for the results of the investigation."

If not, should be....

[VH-XXX]

Photo from the ATSB prelim report.

http://atsb.gov.au/media/3457225/vh-ntv%20accident%20site.jpg

[mickjoebill]

The only thing we know is that the chopper flew into the ground at high speed, and that can only mean sudden and severe mechanical failure, sudden pilot incapacitation, or the pilot losing orientation.

Not forgetting loss of control due to foreign objects fouling cyclic, pedals or collective, which (rarely) has been the cause of aerial filming accidents and even more rare when the cameraman is in the backseat.

Even in transit mode and at night, there are many reasons for laptops, PDAs and cameras to be operated and wielded around in this mobile office/TV studio.

Another (remote) possibility is compromising the pilot's night vision by the accidental activation of a TV light. Such lights are used in cockpit to illuminate the reporter and modern versions are dimmable and can be very bright to balance the shadowed interior to the high light intensity of daylight.

I'm hoping it is a bird strike.

Mickjoebill

[Feather #3]

Lest you missed this in other media;

UPDATE August 24, 2011: A memorial service for Gary Ticehurst will be held in Sydney at Rushcutters Bay Park, near the Cruising Yacht Club of Australia, on Tuesday, August 30 at 11.30am. The service is open to anyone who would like to attend and is being held by the family and the ABC.

A reel of Ticehurst's feature film work is being compiled by Matt Graham and will be screened at the memorial service. He is trying to locate images (still or moving) of Gary and his work. If you have contributions, these can be sent to Matt Graham, who can be contacted on 0430 572 770.

RIP

F#3

[Desert Flower]

Memorial Service - Gary

Wish I could be there. In all the years I worked with Gary, I don't think I ever took a single photo of him. The last time I saw him was when they were filming parts of the movie Stealth in the YLEC area. The image of Gary dropping his daks & changing his clothes in front of me on the apron is forever etched in my memory! :D

DF.

[cavok123]

ABC24 there is a tribute to John Bean on now

[Desert Flower]

Just finished watching the tribute to Gary on ABC24. :{

DF.

[Fantome]

On ROTORHEADS under the thread called -

Three killed in South Australia Helicopter crash

there's a link to a doco coverage of the memorial
service held for Gary Ticehurst. It reveals in spades
what a wonderful person he was. Viewing highly recommended.

[mickjoebill]

ABC reporting that preliminary investigation has not reached any conclusions.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/3466996/ao2011102_prelim.pdf

It has however ruled out a pre impact fire saying the reports of a glow by eyewitness are not supported by study of the wreckage.

I wonder if they have also ruled out the accidental activation of an in cockpit camera light which would have created a glow if seen from the ground.

The bureau says an examination of the artificial horizon instrument has confirmed its internal gyro was working at the time. It hit the ground at 90 degrees on right hand side.

Mickjoebill

[onetrack]

No mention or indication of any bird carcass or bones in the burnt remains being found, thus seemingly reducing the bird-strike theory.
The drummed fuel from which the resupply was drawn that afternoon is noted as an important point of further examination. Drummed fuel always contains an increased risk of contamination.

I'm somewhat surprised that nowhere can I find any mention of autopsies having been done, particularly on the pilot. Perhaps the fire was too intense? I see where a "review" of the medical status of the pilot is on the cards.
Perhaps the investigators are looking to find clues, that they couldn't find via an autopsy?

A BIL related to me how he "died" from a heart attack. He was feeling a little nauseous and had pins and needles in his arms and chest... so, with a history of heart problems, he decided to be driven to hospital by his wife.
He walked into the hospital lobby and had a major heart attack, right as he walked in.

He related how his vision just went, as his peripheral vision just closed in, and his vision narrowed to a pinpoint, then blackness. He hit the floor, effectively dead. The ER crew rushed out and revived him, and he lives still, but on a cocktail of pills.
He said what amazed him, was how suddenly he dropped, like a poleaxed steer, within a couple of seconds. No chance to do anything, reach out, or break his fall. Bang, you're gone, just like that.

[VH-XXX]

An autopsy was probably not an option. Don't believe all that you see when you are watching CSI.

I recently spoke with a pilot whom shared a cold one with the pilot a few weeks before the accident. It was stated that the pilot believe it or not, had little outback flying experience under NVFR. It seems like a coincidence that this was discussed, however this outback trip was discussed as it was upcoming as the pilot he was talking to sometimes operates out of the Marree area. Either way the full reason may never be known and the logbooks could quickly disprove this.

[Sunfish]

Source indicates to me that said pilot was less than familiar with the risks of night flight with no visual references. I trust the source.

[Capt Fathom]

Don't you just love those statements.....

Somebody told me, and they would know! :ugh:

[Horatio Leafblower]

Yeah for the last 25 years I have thought about Tice at the controls of the ABC chopper and I just worried about his lack of night flying experience.

...not! :suspect: :mad: :*

[VH-XXX]

Surprised to hear comments like that from you HLB given your profession. Considering all of the recent press from CASA particularly around NVFR helicopter operations, the lack of a visible horizon in such conditions and first hand recent conversations between the pilot about his experience in this scenario, it doesn't take much to see what the result will likely be. If SAR operators in a B206 can get it wrong, so can a chartered Squirrel.

[Arm out the window]

As an ex-Army aviator he would have, I would think, approached to numerous single light sources / T aids on black nights in the bush.

[Horatio Leafblower]

XXX,

One swallow does not a summer make and a comment or conversation such as that is not a smoking gun. :=

In my experience the potential threat or error that you are worried about is less likely to be the one that kills you. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would find it very surprising considering (as others have stated) his military background.

I am trying desperately to avoid saying "let the ATSB work it out and stop speculating" :ugh:

[Sunfish]

HLB, I'm afraid you are leading with your chin.....according to sources.

[Capt Fathom]

Oh dear! Blessed are the big noters!

Sunfish. Name your source.

Are you going to tell us the cause of the crash.... based on your source!

Have some respect for the family and friends of those who are no longer able to speak for themselves.

Show some restraint, please!

[Horatio Leafblower]

Hey XXX I'm perfectly happy to be wrong. My ego can handle it. I'll even admit it in public and occasionally *gasp* on PPRuNe.

*shrug* :rolleyes:

[Desert Flower]

It was stated that the pilot believe it or not, had little outback flying experience under NVFR.

What I heard (probably came via the same source as XXX's) was that the pilot was not certified to do NVFR charter, which apparently was what the flight came under.

DF.

[Sunfish]

Capt Fathom:

Sunfish. Name your source.

A person with the relevant experience and more of it than Mr. Ticehurst.

[ozbiggles]

Then you think a person with so much experience would have the respect to keep his opinions to himself with no evidence.
A ex military pilot with minimal understanding of night flight and the risks with it? Thats not to say that a mistake was made, but to say someone with that much time and background doesn't understand the risk, what by product of cow grazing that statement is
That light flashing in the corner of your eye......

[havick]

As an ex-Army aviator he would have, I would think, approached to numerous single light sources / T aids on black nights in the bush.

That may be true Arm Out the Window, but how long ago was that? How current is he conducting those type of operations, and was there a light source from where he departed?

Can someone please tell me how he was legally allowed to depart from an unlit area at night? Did the intended destination tick all the boxes re; lighting, navaids etc? I'm not drawing any conclusions as to the cause of the accident (i've got my own opinions), but I question what they were doing at that particular location in the darkies and departing (apparently) from an unlit area.

Then the next question is what category of operation was the flight considered (PVT, AWK, CHTR)? I would bet the farm on it being CHTR, even if ABC owned the machine themselves.

What does their ops manual allow and what equipment was required?

I honestly ponder whether the tragic outcome would've been different if they had just overnighted with the tour group.

[Desert Flower]

That may be true Arm Out the Window, but how long ago was that? How current is he conducting those type of operations, and was there a light source from where he departed?

Can someone please tell me how he was legally allowed to depart from an unlit area at night? Did the intended destination tick all the boxes re; lighting, navaids etc? I'm not drawing any conclusions as to the cause of the accident (i've got my own opinions), but I question what they were doing at that particular location in the darkies and departing (apparently) from an unlit area.

Then the next question is what category of operation was the flight considered (PVT, AWK, CHTR)? I would bet the farm on it being CHTR, even if ABC owned the machine themselves.

What does their ops manual allow and what equipment was required?

I honestly ponder whether the tragic outcome would've been different if they had just overnighted with the tour group.

Havick, I heartily concur with all of the above. Couldn't have put it better myself!

DF.

[havick]

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...s/ops/92_2.pdf

scroll down and read page 5, 6 and 7.

in a nutshell, there's two types of helicopter landing sites;
- Basic HLS
- Standard HLS

Basic HLS's cannot be used for night operations.

Standard HLS has a host of req's for night operations, the thing that stares me in the face with regard to this accident is did the area that VH-NTV was departing from at night conform to the requirements of a standard HLS (read; lighting).

There are dispensations given to operators operate outside the bounds of the caap, usually EMS/SAR. But even then, the aircraft is equipped accordingly as well as other fuel/lighting requirements regarding to the destination etc (standard alternate minima).

I couldn't see the ABC ops manual having these dispensations, nor would the VH-NTV be fitted with the equipment required to depart from a basic HLS at night. Feel free to correct me here someone that has flown for ABC before.

** Doesn't explain the 'cause' of the accident, but still makes me wonder what they were doing there in the first place.

[megle2]

I'd be very surprised if it was charter

[havick]

I suppose the category itself doesn't really make too much of a difference as it would either be AWK or CHTR. The aircraft was a twin and at least certified NVFR as a minimum.

The CAAP (HLS) doesn't differentiate between category anyway, which really is the point I was trying to make.

[VH-XXX]

Sometimes I wonder why military experience is so highly regarded amongst pilots. Was it Virgin that landed at Lord Howe not long after the RAAF 737 did several go-arounds and headed home?

[morno]

With the size of the strip at Lord Howe, no wonder they kept going around in their 737, :E.

Sorry XXX, couldn't help it, :}.

morno

[VH-XXX]

Norfolk ? :O

[Arm out the window]

True, havick, he may have not been that current. Don't know.

I was just suggesting that he would have trained at some point in night ops to and from areas with very basic lighting.

As you know, while it's not a doddle, departing from and approaching to a light in an open flat area on a black night isn't exactly rocket science as long as the aircraft's appropriately equipped (AI, DG, radalt and some reasonable search or landing lights) and you sort out some LSALTs for enroute and circuit area.

That's the actual doing of it, of course, not whether he was supposed to be or not under his ops manual and the regs - I haven't done night bush stuff in the civvy world so haven't looked into it closely.

Of course there could be disorientation, incapacitation, equipment failure and all the rest of it.

XXX, I'm not saying military experience made him any better than anyone else, just that he should have had a background that included the kind of night ops planned for the accident flight.

[havick]

Arm out the window... I'm not saying what I think caused the crash, because really without all the facts it could have been anything.

What really gets me thinking is that would have the accident even have occurred or would there have been a different outcome (if there was some other emergency on take/off) if they didn't depart in the first place?

I'm thinking the coroner would be asking those same questions?

[Squeaks]

CAAP 92-2 (http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/92_2.pdf) is an Advisory guide for landing sites: Gary's accident was not during a landing or take off phase of flight. Apart from that, the suggested lighting requirements for a Standard HLS are:

or by a combination of markings and floodlighting

How do you know that there was no floodlighting? A car headlight can supply perfectly adequate floodlighting, I've had no problems along those lines in the past.

A needless red herring has been introduced here: I'd suggest that a deeper knowledge of helicopter operations on what is generally a fixed wing Forum would introduce a more balanced outlook on this accident.

And FWIW, the ABC operation would have been aerial work or private. The speculation about it being Charter again shows a general lack of understanding of helicopter operations, and media related work. (Apart from the requirement that the pilot be Instrument Rated for night charter work in a rated twin helicopter :rolleyes: )

[havick]

squeaks. it all comes down to 'it depends' on a lot of fronts. Without writing an essay, it depends on what's in their ops manual (which I'm not privvy to) to determine the category type, night operations, dispensations etc.

The category type is irrelevant in this accident, as the aircraft was a twin (which I mentioned in a subsequent post anyway). It originally slipped my mind the the aircraft was an AS355, if it were an AS350 then there would've been a few factors that come into play WRT category type.

How do you know that there was no floodlighting? A car headlight can supply perfectly adequate floodlighting, I've had no problems along those lines in the past.
How do you know there was floodlighting? I don't know if there was floodlighting or omnidirectional lighting present, that's what I asked in the first place. The news reports suggested that the met a boat tour group (read; no car headlights). The ATSB hasn't mentioned anything about ground lighting as yet.

I still take the viewpoint, unless there was adequate ground lighting I personally don't think they should've departed in the first place with the aircraft equipped the way it was. May I stress that I have not alluded to or speculated on the cause of the accident, anything could have occurred.

[VH-XXX]

How do you know that there was no floodlighting? A car headlight can supply perfectly adequate floodlighting, I've had no problems along those lines in the past.

Can't see that there would have been a car headlight on the *island* that they took off from!

[601]

There are dispensations given to operators operate outside the bounds of the caap

How does one get a dispensation against an "Advisory" publication?

[havick]

601. good point, thanks for picking up on that. I was thinking more along the lines of operations below lsalt at night. at one point some of the information suggested that he was getting some shots of the camp before he left for his destination. I should've clarified.

Can't see that there would have been a car headlight on the *island* that they took off from!

Exactly what I was thinking when I started piecing together the information. The aircraft didn't have a gyro cam, so I couldn't see them getting the shots from LSALT if that is in fact what they were doing before they left. I suppose that question would be difficult to answer given the extent of the damage/wrecakge, ie was the cameraman on harness or in his seatbelt, side door open/closed, was the camera recording or not?

And FWIW, the ABC operation would have been aerial work or private. The speculation about it being Charter again shows a general lack of understanding of helicopter operations, and media related work.

I can't see how it would've been PVT. True PVT media operations are the likes of the media bases where the network owns the aircraft themselves and employs the pilot as an employee of the network. Wasn't ABC having the aircraft operated by Gary under his company film helicopters or whatever it is called, and pilots supplied through that company? When casuals flew for ABC were they paid by ABC directly or by Gary's company? I don't know the answer to these questions. As previously mentioned, being a twin, the category type has no relevance.


** For those that read my posts thinking that I have the intent of burning the deceased, I'm not. Answers to my questions may change the way that some companies operate network supplied aircraft under a labour supply arrangement.

[Squeaks]

Can't see that there would have been a car headlight on the *island* that they took off from!

:ugh:

I forgot how precise one must be when posting to appease the experts here: my comment on car headlights was to indicate a suitable amount of light for a night helicopter departure, not that there was a car present.

The category type is irrelevant in this accident, as the aircraft was a twin (which I mentioned in a subsequent post anyway). It originally slipped my mind the the aircraft was an AS355, if it were an AS350 then there would've been a few factors that come into play WRT category type.

Again, a lack of knowledge of helicopter ops is apparent here. The twin/single is only a factor in NVFR Charter, on top of which the pilot must be Instrument Rated and current for a charter op. Gary was not Instrument Rated.

Yes, Gary's company paid the contract pilots on ABC TV ops. The likelihood is that it was an Aerial Work operation, but (another red herring) as a privately owned helicopter flying for the owner it could have legally been a private flight if it was a positioning flight from one area to another. We have only supposition and speculation here (and elsewhere) that aerial filming may or may not have been planned after departure. Equally likely is the possibility of a bird strike, especially as the preliminary report indicates a ground impact attitude on the pilot's side of the aircraft with extreme angle of bank.

It is not at all unusual for a heavy bird to penetrate the screen on a helicopter and incapacitate the pilot. Plenty of examples over on Rotorheads.

[havick]

squeaks. depending on which operation you are working for and which what is in the ops manual will depend on which part of the sortie comes under which category.

There is no blanket approval that all media ops are considered AWK. Generally speaking the leg home (after landing for a stand-up/interview etc) is considered CHTR (unless of course you're filming on the way home, once again all ops manuals are different). The AWK component are the legs that involve aerial filming without landing. All ops manuals (non networked owned machines and network employed pilots) that I have flown media ops specifically state this so there's no confusion as to what role equipment is required (eg floats for overwater etc) that's why I'm asking what was in Gary's ops manual (I haven't read it).

Yes I know about the twin rules at night. I may have made the assumption that gary was instrumented rated as well as the machine.

That still doesn't answer my original question re; ground lighting from the departure point.

Summing up;
- Was the aircraft operated under Gary's AOC or was it a PVT operation ie, network owned machine and network paid pilot (helps to ascertain the category type)?
- What (if any) ground lighting was there on departure?
- Were they filming on the leg home?
- Did Gary own the machine or did ABC?
- If operating under Gary's AOC, then what does their ops manual say with regard to differentiating between CHTR and AWK specifically media/filming ops (for all I know CASA may have approved their ops manual that stipulates that all media operations are considered AWK however I doubt it)? Again helps to ascertain the category type.

Squeaks. Not all media operations are the same, a lot depends on who's AOC you're operating under and what their ops manual says. I think you're misinterpreting that I'm speculating on the cause of the accident, as you have suggested it may well have been a birdstrike or not. I'm pointing out that I don't think they should have been there in the first place.

Squeaks you keep saying that I have a lack of understanding of helicopter regs I have never professed to being the ruling authority here, I have merely been asking questions. Maybe it is you that have a lack of exposure to more than one media operation/AOC holder perhaps? I have flown for CH7 under three different operators/regimes, CH9 under two operators/regimes all of which were a mix of commercial companies and for the network directly. Each had very different requirements and considerations for planning/operating.

**but (another red herring) as a privately owned helicopter flying for the owner it could have legally been a private flight if it was a positioning flight from one area to another.

What were commercial pax doing on board then? Was the journo/cammo paid/employed by Gary or by ABC?

There's been more than a few occasions where media operations under this type of arrangement (read; not network owned helicopters and network employed pilots) that have left the journo/cammo at the scene and flown home empty at night and picked them up the next day or have just stayed overnight at the location.

[Sunfish]

Source says that the pilot was an accident waiting to happen. There are no visual cues out there - black hole situation. This is lawsuit stuff.

[Squeaks]

Source says that the pilot was an accident waiting to happen. There are no visual cues out there - black hole situation. This is lawsuit stuff.

havick:

I've flown for 2, 7 and 10 for many years, but not in Qld where I suspect you are exposed? My Qld exposure was traffic rather than media (plus I also flew SAR further north), but they do things 'differently' up there!

Gary didn't own the AS355, that is well known. The operation was aerial work within all terms and definitions, with a cameraman and a journo as crew members. To infer some charter operation where the cameraman and journo would have been paying passengers is, to me, bizarre.

It's many years since I flew ABC, but whether the operation was under Gary's AOC or another I'm not sure.

Maybe you should post your theories over in Rotorheads where there is likely to be a more experienced set of contributors, with media/helicopter background? I'll join you there, away from the likes of Sunfish ;)

[VH-XXX]

Serious question and related to fixed wing too, not to take away any significance of this discussion - do bird strikes happen often at night? Are there many birds flying around other than petroleum fueled? I guess with the number of day flights versus night flights, the occurrences would be greatly reduced.

I once saw a bird strike on a chopper at Moorabbin. An EC120 was taxiing out to the northern heli-pad when he flew over some Seagulls next to Shell. The startled seagulls flew upwards straight into the blades. Around 8-10 Seagull carcasses hit the ground and the EC120 returned to the hangar. Probably a very expensive 4 minute flight.

[VH-XXX]

Congrats Sunfish, you've just taken this to a whole new level! :\ :\

[havick]

squeaks, a mix of SA and QLD.

each operation had different requirements that could legally allow you to achieve the same outcome depending on what was in your ops manual.

The inference of CHTR is that if it was in fact a commercial operation (ie AWK as you suggest), then if they weren't filming for the leg home then I would consider that particular sector as CHTR. The crew journo/cammo are really only essential crew when that sector is an AWK sector (ie engaged in aerial filming).

I'll give you an example of a CH7 operation I have flown at where the the pilot and aircraft are on a long term contract to help explain where I'm coming from.

Lets use S.A. as an example and paint three scenarios;

Scenario 1; (boat on fire beyond Auto distance from the beach).
Scenario 2; Interview at Kangaroo island with a local.
Scenario 3; Car smash on KI (requiring aerial shots and then a stand up at the scene)

Scenario 1; no floats required (although I would put them on if they were serviceable and not being maintained)
Scenario 2; Floats definately required (as there was no aerial filming then the whole flight was considered CHTR as per that particular ops manual)
Scenario 3; no floats required for the leg there + aerial filming, but once you have landed and shutdown for the standup then floats would be required for the return leg overwater (with pax) or you could re-position the aircraft back to base so long as you were the only one on board. realistically you would throw the floats on to save the hassle.

In QLD, there's no floats fitted to the aircraft at all.

I hope that helps you understand where I'm coming from. I don't know what's in Gary's ops manual, that's why I was asking. However all 'contracted' aircraft by the networks all had a similar reference to what is AWK and what is CHTR

**I'd like to re-iterate that I'm not speculating on the actual cause of the accident (I have my own opinion which I'm keeping to myself). I still think that there wouldn't have been enough lighting for a legal departure. I also wonder if if were legal for the two pax to be on board at night in that scenario (ie not filming as you suggest, and if they were filming how could they do it below LSALT at night without a gyro cam anyway).

[Squeaks]

Serious question and related to fixed wing too, not to take away any significance of this discussion - do bird strikes happen often at night? Are there many birds flying around other than petroleum fueled? I guess with the number of day flights versus night flights, the occurrences would be greatly reduced.

The bird life at Lake Eyre is massive at the moment, and after dusk they will still be awake and alert. A 2 ton clattering Squirrel would stand every chance of scaring them into flight, and a lot of them are quite large birds.

[BrokenConrod]

Serious question and related to fixed wing too, not to take away any significance of this discussion - do bird strikes happen often at night? Are there many birds flying around other than petroleum fueled?

A few years ago I had a bird/bat strike on short final to Rwy 07 at Townsville - ie over the town common/swamp, which is a haven for birds.

I also once had the opportunity to fly down the Burdekin R low level at night in an Army Blackhawk. I was wearing night vision gear - and was surprised to see the number of ducks that were flying down the river in what were "pitch black" conditions.

So yes - birds DO fly at night.

BC :cool:

[Desert Flower]

So yes - birds DO fly at night.

Not uncommon to hear swans flying over too.

DF.

[mickjoebill]

and if they were filming how could they do it below LSALT at night without a gyro cam anyway
On previous flights the camera was fitted with a wide angle lens, so wide vistas were the forte of the camera rig (twice as wide as a typical news gimbal).

It was probably too dark to register the glow of the set sun to the East, it would have been a great shot had they taken off at sunset as the lamps from the camp would have been a good balance to the glow on the horizon.
Something must have been keeping them there not to take advantage of shooting in the golden hour?

They were probably too far away to land and set up a ground shot looking back at the camp. Flying very low at night using a landing light to illuminate the ground is a great shot.
It is of course possible to shoot a piece to camera inside the cockpit, in which case a camera light can cause potentially disorienting reflections.



Mickjoebill

[havick]

Flying very low at night using a landing light to illuminate the ground is a great shot.

Not legal though.

[VH-XXX]

Maybe the 60 knot impact speed is of significance so some of the suggestions here.

[TWT]

Impact speed isn't mentioned in the prelim report.It was logged at 66 knots quite some distance from the impact site.

[VH-XXX]

Good call, didn't read in enough detail.

What I did note was that it was potentially the first night departure for the mission to date.

[nitpicker330]

The Sun sets in the West. :ok:

[Desert Flower]

It was probably too dark to register the glow of the set sun to the East

mickjoebill, I think you need to get your directions right buddy - it sets in the WEST last time I looked!

DF.