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SpringHeeledJack
17th Aug 2011, 11:28
One was out and about this fine morn and came across some chaps replacing a gas main in the street. All well and good, but what suprised me, almost a blast from the past, was that they were drilling a trench in the tarmac and bed with 2 hand held pneumatic drills attached to a compressor. I haven't seen this in many years, I was under the mis-apprehension that it was no longer allowed due to H&S rules as the vibrations had been shown to cause damage to the insides of said human driller. I've only seen JCB's with a percussion drill doing this work these last many years or small electrical handheld Kango type drills for knocking plaster/brickwork off. Does anyone know what the regulations are (without doing a google :8) ???



SHJ

tony draper
17th Aug 2011, 11:43
Used a big hole in road Quango hammer only once they operate at a frequency that is killing on the wrists, sooner use a proper pneumatic jobby any day.
:)

Yamagata ken
17th Aug 2011, 12:58
Carpal tunnel syndrome. Also known as white finger. Mine's from riding motorcycles (mostly). My early years here slayed me, chipping hardpack snow from the parking area. Now I've learned to clear the snow when it's fresh. Chain saws are barstewards for this too.

west lakes
17th Aug 2011, 13:03
The requirement is that they are checked for the amount of vibration they produce and operative's exposure is kept below a time limit.
Most of the drills were also redesigned to incoroprate vibration limiting stuff (springs!!)

We tend to use hydraulic powered equipment which can be good

tony draper
17th Aug 2011, 14:39
Talking about many years ago Mr West,we had a road crossing to do and the boss hired a genny and the daft electric windy picks for a change he said,you could only use one for a few minutes at a time before the wrist pain became unbearable,dont remember what make they were,he also once hired a couple of two stroke jobbies once, as much use as two men off they were,he was great one for trying out new stuff.
Stick to what gets the job done is my philosophy.:rolleyes:

Storminnorm
17th Aug 2011, 14:50
Must have done thousands of hours drilling and rivetting with
pneumatic tools, but they were only small scale stuff.

hval
17th Aug 2011, 14:56
Basically what West Lakes has written.

Many of the larger organisations now ustilse thinsg called HAVS meters (HAVS = Hand Arm Vibration Syndrome). Each operative has their own little gadget that gets placed on an attachment that is put on to any piece of kit that produces vibration. The gadget records the strength of the vibrations and also the time the operative has been working with kit that vibrates. The gadget flashes warning lights. Every time the gadget is placed in the charger data is transferred to a memory card that gets read as necessary. The memory cards are read and records keprt, as well as analysing each operatives usage of vibrating equipment.

There are also legal limits as to how long a person may use any vibrating kit.

The reason you are seeing reduced usage of hand held breakers is that all risk assessments say "look at doing the job another way if possible". Actually, the first thing a risk assessment says is "does the task need to be done?".

green granite
17th Aug 2011, 15:06
There are also legal limits as to how long a person may use any vibrating kit.

:E:E:E:E:E:E:E

crippen
17th Aug 2011, 15:14
Vibration white finger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibration_white_finger)

secondary form of Raynaud's syndrome, an industrial injury triggered by continuous use of vibrating hand-held machinery.

can affect nerves, joints, muscles, blood vessels or connective tissues of the hand and forearm:

hval
17th Aug 2011, 15:47
Green Granite,

I did consider putting something in about that, but thought "nah, I shall see how long it takes someone to comment".

Ten minutes isn't bad.

sitigeltfel
17th Aug 2011, 17:00
I think they were called "Kango" hammers Mr D, but I like the idea of a Quango version.

Lon More
17th Aug 2011, 17:07
Ten minutes isn't bad.
I'd have been quicker if I'd been on line.

hellsbrink
17th Aug 2011, 18:03
I think they were called "Kango" hammers Mr D, but I like the idea of a Quango version.

I reckon we can all think of a few Quangos we'd like to Kango (or Hilti)......

tony draper
17th Aug 2011, 18:38
Bah! I used to take windy pick in each hand climb a 70 foot triple extension ladder and drill two holes at once through a two foot thick concrete wall in the middle of winter in a howling gales.
I wasn't frightened
Tell the kids now and they wunt believe yer.
:rolleyes:

Windy Militant
17th Aug 2011, 18:43
secondary form of Raynaud's syndrome, an industrial injury triggered by continuous use of vibrating hand-held machinery.

can affect nerves, joints, muscles, blood vessels or connective tissues of the hand and forearm:
One of the most dangerous forms of which was experienced by riders on the Isle of Man when they still raced two strokes. There were a couple of nasty incidents coming off the mountain where riders found they couldn't put enough pressure onto the front brake lever to scrub off enough speed to get round the Creg. :eek:

BRL
17th Aug 2011, 19:34
One was out and about this fine morn and came across some chaps replacing a gas main in the street. All well and good, but what suprised me, almost a blast from the past, was that they were drilling a trench in the tarmac and bed with 2 hand held pneumatic drills attached to a compressor.

You don't live next door to me do you?!?! They are doing exactly the same thing outside BRL Towers.

SpringHeeledJack
17th Aug 2011, 20:20
Yer, and you should stop doing that thing in the living room, I can see the whole thing :suspect:


:ooh:


;)



SHJ

Flash2001
17th Aug 2011, 22:48
One used to campaign a Yamaha TR-3. After a race weekend it would take 'till Wednesday for the buzz to leave one's hands.

After an excellent landing etc...

vulcanised
18th Aug 2011, 13:16
Let us be thankful that pneumatic drills haven't caught on with dentists.

Worrals in the wilds
18th Aug 2011, 13:27
Slight drift, but my absolute favourite road mending experience happened outside a place I worked on a busy inner city street.

Day one: the gas people came along, closed the inside lane and dug it all up to re-route the gas main due to an impending freeway development. Closed for two days, re-asphalted and re-opened to traffic.

Day three: the electrical people came along, closed the inside lane and dug it all up to re-route cabling due to an impending freeway development. Less digging required, re-asphalted and re-opened to traffic.

Day four: when the water people came along, closed the inside lane and dug it all up to re-route water and sewerage lines due to an impending freeway development, we ambled out and said 'Just out of interest, why didn't you all come at the same time? Wouldn't that have been easier, cheaper, less disruption to traffic, less :mad:ing jackhammering outside our :mad:ing business driving our customers nuts, btw glad to see our tax dollars at work and we're going into the asphalting business, it's obviously very lucrative. Seriously, is there a plan or do you all just make it up as you go along'?

They looked at us like we'd started jabbering in Swahili and kept bloody digging. :{:confused:

tony draper
18th Aug 2011, 13:28
Actually I think in the olden days when I were a lad dentist's drills were pneumatic at least they were driven by air,ere I think,they didn't have small electric motoors when I were a lad.
:uhoh:

4mastacker
18th Aug 2011, 13:52
You're not that old then Mr D! When I had my first visit to a dentist, the drill was belt-driven through a system of wheels and pulleys driven by a leccy motor powered by a couple of U2 batteries. The drill bit didn't drill... it ground and gnawed its way into me teeth. Put me off dentists for years. It was a very traumatic experience for a young lad visiting the Shields Road Clinic .. I think the dentist was related to Josef Mengele.

Loose rivets
18th Aug 2011, 14:09
Oh, the Rathborne Sp? machine. round belt driven on a big cast iron machine. The pain.

When sweets came off ration I set about driving sugar into the most perfect straight white teeth I could have been given. I wish I could go back in time - not to my yoof, but my mother's young years - and kick her backside. It would hurt less. :} << Me now. She just assumed losing them by 30 was normal.


Back to drills. I've told the story before of ReadyMix cocking up the concrete for my oversite. LSS, but it had no sand in it.

I asked the 30 year old Rivetess to get rid of it - I meant use her savvy and have it gone by some easy means, but she hired a vast compressor, and when the lads came to set it up she asked them how to start it.

over 300 sq ft of 4" thick - fortunately on plastic membrane. I stood in bewilderment when I got back from a flying detail. She came out, headscarf covered in white dust, and said, "I'm so tired, I can't lift the drill out of the hole."

She'd done almost all of it.



Do modern drills tune to destroy the concrete? I'd noticed how hitting the sweet-spot really caused it to fly apart, where other places would take all day to break it. I wondered if a drill could be made to tune to maximum vibration of the target area, but didn't know how to control such power, cos the springs in those old drills are tuned. One would not be able to rely on such resonance.

4mastacker
18th Aug 2011, 14:33
http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/FLX/NKMW/EOJEYF7HUJB/FLXNKMWEOJEYF7HUJB.MEDIUM.jpg

The source of my hatred of dentisits.

OFSO
18th Aug 2011, 14:52
the drill was belt-driven through a system of wheels and pulleys

Yes I suffered from this too, was operated by an English dentist with a French name (won't repeat it here, he's probably been in the fourth circle of hell for many years now, ) who enlarged the tiniest holes to a large size so he could get a big filling in which dropped out a few months later. Still frightened of dentists today although my dentist here, the lovely Monica, is an absolute sweetie. Mrs OFSO had similar experience with an English dentist with a GERMAN name, she confesses to still being scared, although her dentist here is first-rate (and he's German too).

MagnusP
18th Aug 2011, 15:10
When we lived in Oz, we had an Edinburgh-trained Cloggie dentist and he was fantastic. Got back here in '84, got butchered by a local one and turned phobic. Found a decent dentist in the mid-90s, only needed a clean and polish then he went private. Still don't trust 'em, but MrsP is nagging. Gnashers are fine, BTW, except for a missing cusp thanks to a bit of shot in a game pie 5 years ago.

hval
18th Aug 2011, 15:40
Worrals in the Wilds

Seriously, is there a plan or do you all just make it up as you go along'?

More and more there is liaison. In fact there is legal requirement for it. More and more utilities are sharing trenches, holes etc.

BUT, and a really big BUT. Are you able to guess why utilities do not share trenches more often? Let me tell you why.

1/ Health, Safety & Environmental. Who becomes responsible for the Health & Safety & Environmental issues? Whose methods statements & Risk Assessments do you use?

2/ Defect liability. Whose sub contractors do you use? Who becomes responsible for defect rectification of reinstatements?

3/ The lawyers for each Utility. See above two points

4/ What happens if a member of the public, or their property gets hurt. This is a biggee. You know how bad the UK is for suing everyone and anyone.

5/ Utilities are vast organisations. It takes much planning to get works done. Every three months councils, Utilities and other relevant persons meet to discuss works. Scotland is all integrated in managing everything from Orange marches, to skip hire to road works etc. In England things are not quite so organised. Each council has slightly different requirements (still satisfying the same law) so utilities have to meet all councils differing requirements. Means the utilities need big teams of people using differing software sometimes and understanding differing requirement for each and every council. Some councils, particularly London are starting to work together. Boris had a lot to do with that.

Hope that helps you understand. Basically every engineer, manager and planner wants it to happen. Lawyers don't - from fear of claims. Blame the UK compensation culture.

hval
18th Aug 2011, 15:42
My dentist, an ex Squadron Leader, is near Leeming and is absolutely fantastic. I have been lucky and have only had one mediocre dentist.

R J Kinloch
18th Aug 2011, 20:48
You had it easy! Once the lekky drill had died so Nurse Small dug the old treadle drill out of the cupboard.

We didn't call the school dental clinic the Murder House for nothing!

hval
18th Aug 2011, 22:54
Loose Rivets,

You have a problem with your idea; well a few actually. There are many different types of concretes, with differing densities, chemical compositions etc. This would make tuning a drill bit to the natural resonance difficult. The mass of concrete (size, shape, cracks, rebar, ties) would all have an effect of the requisite harmonic frequency.

Great idea though. What you actually require is a sonic drill that frequency hunts until it has a match (i.e. fracture, and not detonation).

Loose rivets
18th Aug 2011, 23:52
Yep, that's the idea.

I wondered then if a detector could be placed on say, the slab to be broken, and the feedback causes the drill to tune to the correct frequency.

This all came about by observing the dust on the concrete, dance when hitting the 'sweet spot.' If the dust just remained inert, almost nothing happened to the slab. As soon as it danced, the cracking would start . . . usually.

Even if there had to be a detector operator, the cost savings would be vast.

Nowadays, I have no doubt such detection could be done with lasers and the power to the bit/piston would have to be fired from both directions with extreme accuracy.

G-CPTN
19th Aug 2011, 00:09
Might it not be that the 'resonance' was the result of the incidence of failure of the structure, rather than the initiation of failure?
Once the concrete starts to crumble the vibrations will amplify.

Just saying.