Syria starts

[racedo]

Not content with adding fuel on the Libyan fire it seems the US and Turkey want to add weapons on to the Syrian one and recruit Islamists to join in overthrowing Syrian Govt........................why does history keep writing itself again.

[chiglet]

Source, please. Nothing on the "Major" News channels....

[racedo]

» Evidence of U.S. Effort to Arm Syrian Opposition Emerges Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind! (http://www.infowars.com/evidence-of-us-effort-to-arm-syrian-opposition-emerges/)

PressTV - NATO plans to arm Syria criminal gangs (http://www.presstv.ir/detail/193902.html)

DEBKAfile, Political Analysis, Espionage, Terrorism, Security (http://www.debka.com/article/21207/)

A selection all giving same message and pretty much none of them allied together.

Course no doubt the payback will be Kurds in Turkey start getting supplied from elsewhere...............gotta wonder who in US administration is tripping on LSD.

[rh200]

You'd think they would wait a while and see if the Libyan adventure works out first:ugh:

[GreenKnight121]

The source article for the first link uses as its primary source (for anything past the arrest of 3 men for arms-smuggling) an article by Sahand Avedis on World Socialist Web Site (http://www.wsws.org/index.shtml), which is a self-described Socialist news organization... the text of their article contains numerous references to "countering US Imperialism"... so that source has an emotional and political agenda which supports exaggerating and distorting "facts"... we actually see that the arms were supplied by Saudi interests, which the US has found are not as controllable by the US as many believe.
Lebanon intercepts covert arms shipments bound for Syria (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/aug2011/leba-a12.shtml)
That organization got its info from a Hezbollah-backed news organization (Al-Akhbar newspaper) and a Lebanese daily Al-Safir, which is close to Syria.
They both cite the Lebanese government, which (with the aid of Syria) overthrew the government of the alliance they are now accusing of participating in the arms-smuggling. Not a very objective source of info.

The second source article linked is Press TV, a 24-hour English language global news network. Its headquarters are located in Tehran, Iran. Iran supports Hezbollah and any anti-US effort. This article cites no sources at all, making it more an editorial of opinion than "hard news".

So the claim that "A selection all giving same message and pretty much none of them allied together." isn't quite accurate. There are distinct ties between all of those organizations and governments.


Debka.com, the source of the last article, has a history of trying to inflame the right-wing of Isreal into action, and is famous for exaggerated reports which cite no sources, but which mash second-hand info, rumors, and similar static into stories supporting its views... a report that the US & NATO were trying to undermine Syria would be fully in line with its bias, so its writers and editors would not reject such a gift due to unreliable sources.

Yedioth Ahronoth, an Israeli paper well-known to be open to a wide range of political views, says that Israeli intelligence officials do not consider even 10 percent of Debka.com's content to be reliable.



This reminds me of US politics, in which both the hard-left part of the Democratic Party and the hard-right of the Republican party have both (for opposing reasons) believed the same conspiracy rumors... which turned out to be false.


The first ones remind me of MoveOn.org, and the last of Rush Limbaugh.




Were arms being smuggled to the Syrian opposition? Absolutely!

Does the US and NATO support the Syrian opposition? Of course!

Would Turkey like to see the Shiite-based government of Syria fall in favor of the Sunni-majority? Sure.

Might either or both take steps to support and supply that opposition? Very possibly.


Are there unbiased and impartial sources supporting these claims of US/NATO support/control of the arms smuggling that are independent of these specific reports? Not that I have seen.

[PTT]

Depends on who you consider to be "unbiased and impartial", really. It's easy enough to dismiss any reporting agency as biased after the fact, so perhaps a list of those you consider "unbiased and impartial" would help matters.

[racedo]

Are there unbiased and impartial sources supporting these claims of US/NATO support/control of the arms smuggling that are independent of these specific reports? Not that I have seen. Given that NATO was not supplying weapons to Libya and found it has, that no boots would to be on the ground of any NATO forces and there are while the Western media claiming otherwise while the alternate media stating the facts then who do you believe.

Funny how US is supplying weapons to those who oppose secular dictatorships so they can be replaced with Islamic Govts...........again.

Wonder if they will ever stop bowing the knee to the Saudi's.

[GreenKnight121]

So the Saudis are controlling the US?

Interesting theory, never heard that before.

[ghostnav]

The Chinese control the US - they own most of their debt!

[ORAC]

Looks like the fall of Tripoli/Ghaddafi has triggered a rising level of troop defections in Syria (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/08/20118296562914805.html). The comment by the Turkish President is ominous.

Iran seems to be equally worried (http://www.smh.com.au/world/syria-must-heed-its-people-says-iran-20110828-1jgjb.html).

[Uncle Ginsters]

Early on in the Libyan crisis, Cameron said (quite rightly) words to the effect of "just because you don't have the resources to fight all problems, doesn't make it right to do nothing about anything"

Does that mean that the second Libya draws to a close, we'll be moving towards Akrotiri to start all over again?

Scenes from Team America - World Police spring to mind (F@*k yeah!).:confused:

[Lonewolf_50]

] [/B]
'No place for autocratic regimes'

Meanwhile, Turkey, which has strong diplomatic ties with Syria, warned Damascus that "the only way out is to immediately silence arms and to listen to the people's demands".

"We have been watching the fate of those who didn't chose this path in the past few months in Tunisia, in Egypt - and now in Libya - as a warning and with sadness," Recep Tayyip Erdogan said in his monthly address aired on Turkish TV on Sunday.

"Demands for democracy and freedom are the people's just demands. In today's world, there is no place for one-man rule, for autocratic regimes and closed communities".

Rights groups say more than 2,200 people have been killed since the uprising began in March.
Small price to pay.

Half a million died in America's Civil War ... and a bit more than that in Rwanda's recent bloodletting ...

[racedo]

Love Turkey talking about listening to People's demands......................like how many Kurds have been killed in Turkey and the people removed from villages in its own form of ethnic cleansing.

Lets not mention Armenia in respect to Turkey.

[PTT]

Small price to pay. Not if you're one of them.

[500N]

Iran is one that should be worried after the protests they put down a year or two ago.

It might still happen.

.

[Buster Hyman]

I don't think Iran is worried. I reckon they are behind a lot of these uprisings. For them to come out & say Syria should listen to its people, smacks of Islamic revolution...one that they would be more than happy with.

Just my 2 cents...

[500N]

Buster

You don't think Iran (or the Revolutionary Council) were worried when the protests occurred over the 2009 Presidential Election Results ?

The way it panned out, I think they were. They tried to solve it peacefully, then decided it wasn't going to happen so crushed it.

Just my HO.

[Buster Hyman]

I guess they were 500N, but I think a fundamentalist North Africa & Middle East would suit their purposes...

[ORAC]

In Slap at Syria, Turkey Shelters Anti-Assad Fighters (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/28/world/europe/turkey-is-sheltering-antigovernment-syrian-militia.html?_r=1&ref=global-home)

ANTAKYA, Turkey — Once one of Syria’s closest allies, Turkey is hosting an armed opposition group waging an insurgency against the government of President Bashar al-Assad, providing shelter to the commander and dozens of members of the group, the Free Syrian Army, and allowing them to orchestrate attacks across the border from inside a camp guarded by the Turkish military.

The support for the insurgents comes amid a broader Turkish campaign to undermine Mr. Assad’s government. Turkey is expected to impose sanctions soon on Syria, and it has deepened its support for an umbrella political opposition group known as the Syrian National Council, which announced its formation in Istanbul. But its harboring of leaders in the Free Syrian Army, a militia composed of defectors from the Syrian armed forces, may be its most striking challenge so far to Damascus.

On Wednesday, the group, living in a heavily guarded refugee camp in Turkey, claimed responsibility for killing nine Syrian soldiers, including one uniformed officer, in an attack in restive central Syria.

Turkish officials describe their relationship with the group’s commander, Col. Riad al-As’aad, and the 60 to 70 members living in the “officers’ camp” as purely humanitarian. Turkey’s primary concern, the officials said, is for the physical safety of defectors. When asked specifically about allowing the group to organize military operations while under the protection of Turkey, a Foreign Ministry official said that their only concern was humanitarian protection and that they could not stop them from expressing their views.

“At the time all of these people escaped from Syria, we did not know who was who, it was not written on their heads ‘I am a soldier’ or ‘I am an opposition member,’ ” a Foreign Ministry spokesman said on the condition of anonymity in keeping with diplomatic protocol. “We are providing these people with temporary residence on humanitarian grounds, and that will continue.”

[Trim Stab]

If the Ba'ath party were to be toppled and Syria were to become truly democratic, it is likely that the populace would elect a far more rabidly anti-Israel government than the current regime.

I suspect Mossad are not too keen on this one...

[dallas]

...what, than the current one which funds, trains and provides shelter for elements of Hamas? I'll also point out the more [relatively] democratic models of Egypt and Jordan who manage to be friendly with Israel.

IMO the danger is an Iranian-style hijacking of the country by fundamentalist nutcases - and Syria and Iran are very friendly - which could easily whip-up anti-Israel sentiment Hitler 1930s-style.

The difference between what we have now in Syria and what could come is Syria presently wants to stay a member of the world community; get some sort of Ahmedinajad/Chavez/Kim Jong-Il in character and it could get awkward, esp. as Iran has been giving Syria missile and possibly nuke technology.

[Trim Stab]

the more [relatively] democratic models of Egypt



Egypt was friendly to Israel when it was a dictatorship, bought off with trillions of dollars of US aid. It is far from clear whether that utopia is going to continue, now that the populace can (so far) freely express themselves. One of the first results of the fall of Mubarak was the withdrawal of the Gaza blockade - a blockade which was as unpopular with Egyptians as it was with Gazan Palestinians.

A truly democratic Egypt is likely to be (with good reason) far more hostile to Israel than the former Egypt subjugated by a dictatorship bought off by US aid. Similarly, a truly elected Syrian government won't stay in power for long if it tolerates continued Israeli subjugation and abuse of Palestinians, or if Israel won't allow repatriation of the Palestinian refugees currently housed by Syria in its refugee camps.

The beauty of democracy is that there is no point in arguing here if we are not voters - let's just wait to see the outcome!

[BOAC]

Can you all see the political 'process'. Now we have a little spare 'metal', I think it will all suddenly become totally unacceptable and we will just HAVE to put a NFZ over Syria.

[ORAC]

Syrian Rebels Attack Damascus Military Base, Form Council (http://www.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Activists-Syrian-Rebels-Attack-Military-Site-Near-Damascus-133947603.html)

Syrian opposition activists say army defectors have attacked a government base near the capital, Damascus, and formed a rebel council in an escalation of an eight-month uprising against the government of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

The activists say rebels of the Free Syrian Army fired rockets and machine guns at an air force intelligence complex in the Damascus suburb of Harasta early Wednesday. There was no independent confirmation of the rebel attack or information about casualties.

A Germany-based spokesman for Syria's Local Coordination Committees says the Free Syrian Army has established a temporary military council whose goal is to weaken the Syrian security forces. Hozan Ibrahim says the Syrian rebels announced the formation of the council in a statement released late Tuesday. The Free Syrian Army previously had no announced central command.

A group of men claiming to be Syrian army defectors also released a video statement Wednesday declaring their desertion from the pro-Assad military.

Syrian army defectors have engaged in increasingly deadly battles with government forces in the past week. But those confrontations had been concentrated outside the capital, including the northwestern region of Idlib, the central region of Homs and southern region of Daraa...........

Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey Train “Mercenaries”, Send Them to Syria: Report (http://www.almanar.com.lb/english/adetails.php?eid=35126&frid=23&seccatid=20&cid=23&fromval=1)

[racedo]

1980's rerun in place....:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Train Merc's and they come home and decide change at home is required as well......

[ORAC]

Grauniad: Free Syrian Army takes shape on Lebanese border (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/16/free-syrian-army-lebanese-border)

[ORAC]

You can see where this is going....... :hmm:

Torygraph: Call for David Cameron to lead action against Syria (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/8895146/Call-for-David-Cameron-to-lead-action-against-Syria.html)

David Cameron has been urged by at least one Arab state to lead a diplomatic offensive against Syria, after successfully cooperating with regional powers to oust Col Gaddafi, The Daily Telegraph has learned.


Grauniad: Syria crisis: Arab call to work with the west for diplomatic solution (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/16/syria-crisis-arab-diplomatic-solution)

Britain and France preferred partners in a Libya-style 'contact group' to co-ordinate policy, but no question of military action

.......Diplomats said the key issue was to draw up a plan for a military and civilian Arab League mission to Syria – the only way of getting observers on the ground amid concerns about the need to protect civilians. Details need to be accepted by Syria. Arabi said that no observers would be sent without clear agreement from Damascus.

The league gave Syria three days to end the crackdown on protests and allow in teams of observers, signalling its patience with Damascus was running out. League foreign ministers meeting in Morocco said in a statement they had also asked their experts to draft a plan for economic sanctions on Syria, which was suspended from the organisation.

Asked if the three-day deadline was a last-ditch attempt at diplomacy, Qatari foreign minister Sheikh Hamad bin Jassim al-Thani told reporters: "I do not want this to sound like a warning. What I can say is that we are close to the end of the road as far as the [Arab League's] efforts on this front are concerned."

The body did not say what would happen if Syria failed to comply.............

[ORAC]

Syria's Muslim Brotherhood open to Turkish 'role' (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hT_zibTo6-cKMNoYXYPAsE1MTfsw?docId=CNG.a6c4fe535e83c04c99bb1977de6e8e0 3.391)

(AFP) – 3 hours ago

ISTANBUL — The leader of Syria's exiled Muslim Brotherhood said Thursday that his compatriots would accept Turkish "intervention" in the country to resolve months of bloody unrest.

"The Syrian people would accept intervention coming from Turkey, rather than from the West, if its goal was to protect the people," Mohammad Riad Shakfa told a press conference. "We may ask more from Turkey as a neighbour," he also said, without elaborating on the nature of the intervention which the Brotherhood might consider acceptable.

On Thursday, pro-government daily Sabah reported that the opposition Syrian National Council (SNC), together with the Muslim Brotherhood, had asked Turkey to establish a no-fly zone on the Syrian side of the shared border to protect Syrian civilians.

Mohammed Faruk Tayfur, political leader of the Muslim Brotherhood and a member of the SNC, declined to comment on the allegations, saying only that discussions were held on "every possible means" with several governments in order to stop violence. He added that the governments and the SNC discussed how to increase political pressure on Assad and the possibility of an economic embargo against Syria, in a way that would not affect the people.

"We discussed every possible means available by international law to stop the killing of civilians," Tayfur said. "We are trying to prevent the killings of civilians as we (try) to mobilise the international community," he said, while rejecting foreign intervention in Syria. If there is foreign intervention, something which we would not want... the entire responsibility rests with the dictatorial regime in Syria," he said.........

[ORAC]

BBC: Syria conflict 'similar to civil war', Russia says (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15769804)

........'End of the line'

.....Turkey, which shares a long border with Syria, has been increasingly critical of Mr Assad and on Thursday, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan accused the international community of failing to act on the Syrian crisis because it was not resource-rich, as had been the case with Libya. "The silence and unresponsiveness of those who have an appetite for Libya to the massacres in Syria is creating irreparable wounds in the conscience of humanity," he said at an energy forum in Istanbul.

Meanwhile, French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe is heading to Turkey for talks on how to address the growing crisis. They are expected to focus on ways in which the international community can increase pressure on President Bashar al-Assad to stand down, and to begin planning for the post-Assad era.

The parties will also discuss ways in which the issue can be pushed at the UN Security Council...............

The BBC's Jonathan Head in Ankara says Turkey and France have not always seen eye-to-eye during the Arab Spring uprisings but will hope to present Syria with incontrovertible proof that it is now almost totally isolated.

France, Britain, Germany and a number of Arab states are to submit a draft resolution to the calling for a vote in the UN General Assembly condemning the violence.

However it is clear that events on the ground are outpacing international diplomacy, our correspondent adds.

[racedo]

I can see some Lebanese factions taking action against Syrian rebels.

[parabellum]

won't allow repatriation of the Palestinian refugees currently housed by Syria in its refugee camps.



But they are not refugees, most if not all have never lived in Palestine/Israel so repatriation doesn't really apply.

[PTT]

From where are you getting that information?

[racedo]

Wonder will the US put pressure on Israel until all US personnel out of Iraq, then wash its hand of it.

[parabellum]

PTT - I lived and worked in the Middle East for a considerable number of years, that information? was common knowledge.
Work it out, when did the Palestinians leave Israel/Palestine? Late forties, early fifties, the youngest genuine refugee would now be approaching sixty.

[PTT]

Oh I see. So if you manage to successfully displace a population for more than one generation then they lose all legitimacy to any claims on their previous homeland, right?

[Trim Stab]

Work it out, when did the Palestinians leave Israel/Palestine? Late forties, early fifties, the youngest genuine refugee would now be approaching sixty.


Do you suppose they gave up their land and livelihoods voluntarily, in order to go and live in a refugee camp in Syria or Jordan? Do you imagine they had a choice?

Admittedly, it is fairly impractical now for the refugees to return - that would mean a defacto end to Israel as a "democratic" state. However, it doesn't diminish the injustice that was served upon them when they were expelled.

Winston Churchill was correct when he opposed the creation of the state of Israel, on the grounds that it would cause a century of wars. His solution was to reintigrate the displaced jews back into their countries of recent origin in Europe - as ever he was right. Unfortunately Roosevelt overruled him with today's disastrous consequences.

[Green Flash]

Hmmmm.

Akrotiri or Incerlik??

Oh, I don't know!

Allright, Akrotiri it is then.

And I've still got my bag half packed from Libya too.

:}:\:E

[parabellum]

Do you suppose they gave up their land and livelihoods voluntarily, in order to go and live in a refugee camp in Syria or Jordan? Do you imagine they had a choice?



No, they certainly didn't, but many of the expulsions at that time were brought about by the Palestinians own youth who were rounded up and taken to Bulgaria and Russia to be 'indoctrinated' and who came back as ruthless terrorists to intimidate and murder their own people who were happy to live along side the Israelis, this didn't suit Russia's plan for de stabilizing the Middle East. Other expulsions were brought about by absentee landlords selling their rented out land and properties to Israelis without any consideration for sitting tenants. And yes, the Israelis were responsible for some expulsions too.

Winston Churchill was a brilliant man but the idea that you could reintegrate the Jewish people that survived back into the Soviet block of countries and Germany in the immediate post war period was just fanciful.

[Lonewolf_50]

So the Saudis are controlling the US?

Interesting theory, never heard that before.
Ever hear of a place called Bosnia? Who do you think was a party to the US getting involved there?

[Trim Stab]

Winston Churchill was a brilliant man but the idea that you could reintegrate the Jewish people that survived back into the Soviet block of countries and Germany in the immediate post war period was just fanciful.

Admittedly resettling the displaced Jews in Palestine was easier in the short term, and after WW2 there were many conflicting priorities. But often short-term easy solutions are not best in the long term.

The full consequences of Roosevelt's acquiescence to Hitler's "First Solution" (ie expel the German/Austrian Jews to Palestine) are yet to be seen. As Churchill predicted, it would cause a century of wars of which we are just part way through - it could well yet eventually be considered by future historians to be the cause of WWIII.

[racedo]

Oh I see. So if you manage to successfully displace a population for more than one generation then they lose all legitimacy to any claims on their previous homeland, right?

Worked in the US in 19th Century.

[ORAC]

Worked in Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries.

[rh200]

I think it has always worked throughout history, if you want to take over the land you face a potential problem from the inhabitants, usually a violent insurgency. As a result these people are hard to deal with as they hide amongst the general population, and as such there's only two proven ways to deal with them. 1) kill all the population (or at least start to, thereby putting the proverbial fear of god into them). 2) remove that population so they are out of their comfort zone.

You resettle your people, let simmer for a decade of two then the next generation say they have a claim as its there homeland as they where born there. I believe the Chinese are or where importing not insignificant amounts of Han Chinese into that little country, opps ex country called Tibet.

Its not nice but has always seemed to work :sad:

[ORAC]

Arab states, Turkey plan 'No-Fly Zone' over Syria (http://www.albawaba.com/news/arab-states-turkey-plan-no-fly-zone-over-syria-402102)

Senior European sources said that Arab jet fighters, and possibly Turkish warplanes, backed by American logistic support will implement a no fly zone in Syria's skies, after the Arab League will issue a decision, under its Charter, calling for the protection of Syrian civilians.

The sources told Kuwait's al Rai daily that the no fly ban will include a ban on the movement of Syrian military vehicles, including tanks, personnel carriers and artillery, adding that this move would aim at curbing the movement of Assad forces, and cripple their ability to bomb cities. The European sources said the no fly ban might lead to the paralysis of the Syrian regime forces "in less than 24 hours."

Meanwhile, it is reported that the leadership of the Turkish General Staff informed all the concerned parties with the Syrian issue its rejection of the idea that the Turkish army would launch any invasion to the Syrian territory including the area adjacent to the Turkish border to establish a "buffer zone" to protect civilians fleeing the violence.

Turkish PM calls on 'coward' Assad to quit (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gys7pm0PfdH7elBXvVSetVJHBBjg?docId=CNG.bfa54a79a930d53 4ee98651ad9b8507c.161)

ANKARA — Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan Tuesday urged Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad to step down, branding him a coward and warning that he risked the same fate of dictators who met bloody deaths. In his fiercest criticism yet of his one-time ally, Erdogan also ridiculed Assad for pledging to fight to the death against domestic opponents while being unwilling to risk his life to retake the occupied Golan Heights from Israel. "Quit power before more blood is shed ... for the peace of your people, your region and your country," Erdogan told the Turkish parliament in Ankara.

After weeks of mounting criticism of the Syrian president, it was the first time the Turkish premier had directly called for his removal from power. He is the second leader of a neighbouring country to do so, after Jordan's King Abdullah last week called on Assad to go.

"Bashar al-Assad is saying he will fight to the death. Fighting your own people ... is not heroism but cowardice," Erdogan said, referring to a recent interview with Assad published by the Sunday Times in London. "If you want to see someone who fought and died, take at look at Nazi Germany, take a look at Hitler, take a look at Mussolini and Romania's Ceausescu," he said. Adolf Hitler died in his bunker as Allied forces closed in on Berlin, wartime Italian leader Benito Mussolini was strung up from a lamppost by an angry mob and Romanian communist dictator Nicolae Ceausescu was executed by firing squad on Christmas Day 1989.

If the Syrian leader had failed to learn lessons from history, Erdogan invited him to consider the more recent fate of Libya's late strongman Moamer Kadhafi who was executed by his opponents after being chased from power.

Erdogan also asked Assad why he failed to display the same fighting spirit to win back the Golan Heights, a rocky plateau which Israel captured from Syria during a war in 1967. The Jewish state unilaterally annexed the Golan in 1981. "You are talking about fighting to the death. Why didn't you fight to the death for the Golan Heights occupied by Israel?" said Erdogan...............

[PTT]

Worked in the US in 19th Century.Worked in Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries.There was no universal suffrage then either. I guess that's all ok then too.
Blatant argument from antiquity and clearly bolleaux :rolleyes:
Its not nice but has always seemed to work :sad: So we should just let it happen?

[jamesdevice]

what happens when the refugees from the Arab League "no fly zone" pour into Israel?
And what happens when the Arab aircraft follow them?
I can't see Jordan / Iraq / Turkey / Lebanon letting them in

[rh200]

So we should just let it happen? Didn't say we should, but it does beg the question should we. We do have a long history of interfering, but where do you stop, and who is to say our moral values are right. Its appears our group huggy method doesn't actually solve anything, it seems like it just drags things out.

So the question is, is it better that "x" amount of people die in "y" amount of time, or a magnitude more spread out over decades? Its a moral question that tugs at the heart, but that is what things come down to. The constant is, if you don't interfere, then in all likely hood your enemys will be, so its all well and good to sit back and say, "its not our business".

what happens when the refugees from the Arab League "no fly zone" pour into Israel?

Seriously doubt the Israelis will let that happen, though there might be good PR in it. Hmm can imagine some strategist working on the pro's and con's now.

[ORAC]

Torygraph: Syria descends further into open warfare with clashes on Turkish border (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/8938494/Syria-descends-further-into-open-warfare-with-clashes-on-Turkish-border.html)

Syria descended further into open warfare with armed clashes in the south and on its border with Turkey yesterday, with state media additionally pointing to the involvement of Turkish armed forces.

In one of the most serious clashes to date, the Syrian authorities said they had repelled an incursion by 35 "armed terrorists" over the border in the province of Idlib. They claimed some were wounded, and were ferried away from the battle by Turkish military vehicles to Turkish army aid stations. "The border guards forces suffered no injuries or losses," the state news agency said. "They warned they would stop anyone who even thinks of touching Syria's security or its citizens."

Turkey has provided a base and diplomatic cover to the Free Syrian Army, a growing band of defectors, and it is unlikely that an open attack with such a large group of men could have been planned without their awareness. That alone is enough to draw the two former allies closer to open war, though both are likely to try to avoid it. Ahmet Davutoglu, Turkey's foreign minister, has already admitted he considers that a buffer zone inside Syria for refugees from the fighting might have to be considered, with outside military intervention if necessary.

A widening and increasingly dangerous rift is forming between the main strategic alliances in the region. Iran and its allied militia in Lebanon, Hizbollah, are remaining loyal to Mr Assad but Hamas, another Damascus-based militant group, is making its unease clear.

Hassan Nasrallah, Hizbollah's leader, made his first public appearance in three years, at a rally to mark the Shia Muslim festival of Ashura in Beirut. He said he stood by Mr Assad as a fellow struggler in the "resistance" and said that America, the Satan, was trying to overthrow him to make up for defeat in Iraq. "A message to all those who are conspiring against the resistance and banking on change: we will never let go of our arms," he said. "We are tens of thousands of trained fighters, who are all ready to die." That contains more than a hint that success in what both he and Iran see as a western-backed attempt to undermine Mr Assad could lead to retaliatory attacks, most probably against Hizbollah's stated foe, Israel.

The overthrow of Mr Assad would prove an existential threat to his organisation. Burhan Ghalioun, the leader of the opposition Syrian National Council, has said a new Syria would break ties with Hizbollah and also its strategic alliance with Iran, further isolating it and cutting off its immediate access to the militant group, which it funds and supplies. "The so-called Syrian National Council, formed in Istanbul, and its leader Burhan Ghalioun are trying to present their credentials to the United States and Israel," Mr Nasrallah said.

The United States, meanwhile, said it was returning its ambassador, Robert Ford, to Damascus. France also announced Eric Chevallier, its ambassador would return.

The Free Syrian Army is already engaged in confrontation with regular troops across the country. There has been repeated fighting this week in the town of Dael, near the border with Jordan. The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a London-based organisation, said that rebels had been trying to prevent the army entering the town to make arrests.

[Mach Two]

Any toppled Arab regime doesn't necessarily get replaced by a more democratic one. Each departing party leaves behind a vacuum that will be filled by something. Just not necessarily something better and not necessarily the group(s) that overthrew them. No guarantees in a revolution.

[ORAC]

Bloomberg: Russia Says West Planning No-Fly Zone in Syria to Protect Rebels (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-12/russia-says-west-planning-no-fly-zone-in-syria-to-protect-rebels.html?)

Russia received information that members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and some Persian Gulf countries are preparing military intervention in Syria, the head of the Russian Security Council said.

Turkey, a NATO member, may play a key role, Nikolai Patrushev, who is also a former director of the Federal Security Service, told Interfax in comments confirmed by his office. The U.S. and Turkey are working on the possibility of creating a no- fly zone to protect Syrian rebels, Patrushev said. “We are receiving information that NATO members and some Persian Gulf states, working under the ‘Libyan scenario’, intend to move from indirect intervention in Syria to direct military intervention,” the Russian security chief said.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said yesterday that the Arab League monitoring mission in Syria should end after failing to deter the government’s 10-month campaign of violence against dissidents. She spoke after meeting Qatari Foreign Minister, Sheikh Hamad bin Jassim bin Jabor al Thani, a day after President Barack Obama held talks with Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal at the White House.

Russia, which has Soviet-era ties with Syria, argues that the UN-sanctioned bombing of Libya by the NATO was used to bring about regime change and that Western governments are trying to repeat that scenario in Syria. The West is putting pressure on Syria because the country refuses to break off its alliance with Iran rather than for repressing the opposition, said Patrushev, who served with Prime Minister Vladimir Putin in the Soviet-era KGB.

“This time, it won’t be France, the U.K. and Italy that will provide the main strike forces, but perhaps neighboring Turkey, which was until recently on good terms with Syria and is a rival of Iran with immense ambitions,” Patrushev said.

Syrian President Bashar al-Assad rejected calls for his resignation on Jan. 10, accusing “foreign conspiracies” of aiming to divide his country. Unrest in Syria since March 2011 has claimed more than 5,000 lives, according to the United Nations. The Arab League imposed sanctions on Syria on Nov. 27. Russia and China have blocked efforts by the U.S. and the European Union for the UN Security Council to condemn the crackdown.

[racedo]

Turkey has just stopped allowing the arms shipments going through its territory from Iran to Syria...........playing both sides of the fence yet again.

Course if Turkey allows others in to attack Syria then Kurds have just as much of a right to expect external intervention and weapons for a greater Kurdistan.............this time without Geoffrey Archer.

[500 above]

‘Dangerous cargo’ ship sent packing - Cyprus Mail (http://m.cyprus-mail.com/cyprus/dangerous-cargo-ship-sent-packing/20120112)

Syria bound arms and ammo.

[Milo Minderbinder]

Thats the ammunition for that Russian carrier scuppered then

[maxred]

Well this is beginning to look a tad ominous. None of this, if it is going the way it currently looks, will end well. The region is badly unstable, with Iraq, Libya, Egypt frankly, a mess. Moving against stronger and larger Arab countries, in the name of civilian protection, is extremely dubious. A combined Iranian/Syrian, Russian and Chinese backed force, teamed up with the other factions might be s bit more than the West can chew. Either our politicians know something the rest of us don't, or we are again being seriously mid led. I suspect the latter

[phil9560]

I think the Iranian aspect will be strangled at birth should the situation progress.

[maxred]

Sure I agree, but previously what was the end game? We now know, none. Democratic states? We maruad around the globe/region in the name of democracy, apparently. Got to end somewhere.

[phil9560]

I don't think we are marauding.I think the intentions are basically good.Possibly with little grasp of cause and effect.

However what would anybody suggest as an alternative long term plan ?

Thats a serious question not a conversational hand grenade :=

[racedo]

I don't think we are marauding.I think the intentions are basically good.

You may believe that but others are happy to forment trouble because they see financial benefit for themselves or their cohorts.

[maxred]

The errors have already occurred. Therefore there possibly is no long term alternate plan. We appear to deal with what we have, again with little appreciation of cause and effect. What goes through our leaders minds?? I have long since given up attempting to understand what drives and motivates. I was totally against the original Iraqi invasion, and like dominoes we fall into a mode of behaviour. The major issue is that we cannot trust our political masters to tell it straight, therefore it is nigh on impossible for the rest of us (thinkers) amongst us to rationalise. We also must never forget that all of this is costing us dearly in miltary and civilian loss if life.

[phil9560]

OK I'll be Devils Advocate and no doubt live to regret it.

Racedo-somebody always benefits.

Maxred-what will happen ultimately if we do nothing ?

[racedo]

Racedo-somebody always benefits.


The Illuminati :E

[phil9560]

Well they bloody would :*

[maxred]

Racedo I agree. And I was not advocating doing nothing. What I suggested was that unless we understood the motive, we can't plan, and with duplicity, it makes it that little bit tougher

[COCL2]

So, Russian arms going to Syria. Russian fleet in the Eastern Med with a base in Syria. Iran offering military support to Syria. Turkey and others threatening a "no fly zone" over Syria.
What happens when Iran ups its offer and sends troops into Syria (through Iraq) as "peacekeepers" and extends its air patrols over Syria?
No-one in Iraq to stop them, and the northern Iraqi population is Shia and sympathetic to Iran anyway - so no problems for Iran in making the transit.
Longer term, if Iran can't export oil via the Gulf / Red Sea / Suez due to European sanctions, a new Russian built pipeline across Iraq and Syria to the Med can't be too difficult given their experience with the pipelines around the Caspian

[rh200]

I don't think we are marauding.I think the intentions are basically good.

:uhoh: The road to hell is paved with good intentions:suspect:

[pr00ne]

SAMXXV,


OK, time to cut to the chase. SAMXXV, you are either a 9 year old or you need help.

[COCL2]

SAM
If Iran and Russia offer a military "peace keeping" support presence to Syria, including AA missiles and aircraft, do you think any Nato / Western force is going to try that corridor?
The Russians would not be seen as the aggressors.

[Mach Two]

Iraq is an enormous country with a direct transit airspace from the Med to Iran

Not without flying over Syria or Jordan and Israel.

Also, I cannot agree with your rather sweeping statement; there are plenty of perfectly good Saudi aircrew.

M2

[cazatou]

pr00ne

SAMXXV is not a 9 year old - I would agree with your alternative conclusion.

[500 above]

Munitions ship ends up in Syria - Cyprus Mail (http://m.cyprus-mail.com/ship/munitions-ship-ends-syria/20120113)

[Green Flash]

Re-supply for the Russian ships allready there?

[Milo Minderbinder]

After being in Cyprus it wouldn't have been allowed into Turkey. Nowhere else for it to safely go

[glojo]

Re-supply for the Russian ships allready there?

The Russian Battle Group that had been on a formal visit to the Syrian port of Tartus left there on Tuesday and is now back on the high seas.

Russia might be sending a message to the west when it allowed senior Russian political figures along with the Battle Group Commander to be pictured in a relaxed manner with representatives of the Syrian Regime? (question)

[COCL2]

would it have got there in time if it had not been delayed in Cyprus? How would the timings fit then?

[ORAC]

Torygraph: Syria: growing Arab calls for military intervention as Assad announces amnesty (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9016510/Syria-growing-Arab-calls-for-military-intervention-as-Assad-announces-amnesty.html)

A powerful joint Arab front for military intervention in Syria was being formed on Sunday night, as the Assad regime desperately fought to stave off calls for action.

President Bashar al-Assad announced a general amnesty for crimes committed since the start of the uprising against his rule last March, saying offenders had until the end of January to turn themselves in. But two previous amnesty offers had little effect, only spurring on the revolutionaries, who have since seized control of parts of major cities. Mr Assad's attempts to mix such offers with a tough line on continued resistance, which he pledged in a keynote speech last week, suggest he is floundering in the face of a continued build-up of outside forces against him.

Brigadier-General Mustafa Ahmed al-Sheikh, the most senior of his officers to defect, was in talks on Sunday with the Free Syrian Army and the Syrian National Council prior to announcing a new Syrian Military Council to coordinate armed resistance. "He is working now to build this council and will make an announcement tonight or tomorrow," his spokesman told The Daily Telegraph last night. The military council could be used as a front for intervention either by the Arab League as a whole, which will receive a report from its observers' mission on Thursday, or by individual members.

Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani, the Emir of Qatar, which led the Arab involvement in the Libyan conflict, said he now favoured sending troops "to stop the killing", the first Arab leader to say so publicly. He won support from the former head of the Arab League, Amr Moussa, who said: "The Arab League should begin to study this possibility and begin consultations on this issue." Mr Moussa's words have added weight as he is currently a candidate, and favourite, in Egypt's presidential elections due later this year.

Such calls for military intervention in an internal Arab conflict would have been unthinkable until a year ago. But by sending a monitoring mission to Syria, and seeing it publicly mocked by Mr Assad in his speech last week, the Arab League has been forced into a position where it has to take action or lose whatever credibility it has on the world stage. The United Nations estimated that 400 people were killed in the first ten days of the monitoring mission, while at least one of the monitors walked out in protest at what he said was "people being killed, beaten up, and arrested by police, soldiers and militiamen" in front of them.

The Emir's proposal will meet fierce resistance, but his prime minister, Sheikh Hamad bin Jassem al-Thani, heads the committee overseeing the mission's work and will be backing a forceful position when it meets on Saturday prior to a full foreign ministers' meeting the next day.

Any military intervention will most likely take the form of a buffer zone or humanitarian corridor linking rebel-held areas in cities like Homs which have come under government attack. But that would provide a safe haven for the Free Syrian Army, who could now have a figurehead in Gen Sheikh, a ground forces commander in northern Syria before he defected last month. He estimates that 20,000 troops have changed sides, as against an army of some 280,000, indicating that, as in Libya, outside help would be needed to balance the forces. On the other hand, opposition to Mr Assad is diffused across the country, suggesting a long-drawn out civil war is in any case the most likely outcome...................

[Saltie]

Gulf states armies getting themselves involved in real fighting against the Syrian army. That will prove to be interesting - from both sides.

[ORAC]

DefenseNews: U.S. Drones Monitor Events in Syria: Report (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120218/DEFREG02/302180003/U-S-Drones-Monitor-Events-Syria-Report?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE)

WASHINGTON — A “good number” of unmanned U.S. military and intelligence drones are operating in the skies over Syria, monitoring the Syrian military’s attacks against opposition forces and civilians, NBC News reported.

Citing unnamed U.S. defense officials, the TV network said this surveillance was not in preparation for U.S. military intervention. However, the administration of President Barack Obama hopes to use the overhead visual evidence and intercepts of Syrian government and military communications in an effort to make the case for a widespread international response, the report said.

NBC News said there has been some discussion among White House, State Department and Pentagon officials about possible humanitarian missions in Syria. But U.S. officials fear those missions could not be carried out without endangering the people involved and would almost certainly draw the United States into a military role in Syria, the report noted..................

[Lonewolf_50]

If what the defense news article reports is true, we have a major OPSEC violation in the form of what appears to be an authorized leak.

Part of the value of those unmanned drones is that many of them are hard to detect.

FFS, can the people in Washington ever remember to keep their fool mouths shut about anything?

[TEEEJ]

Iranian navy ships return from Syria through Suez

CAIRO | Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:47am EST
(Reuters) - Two Iranian naval ships returned from Syria through the Suez Canal Tuesday, a Suez Canal source said.

The ships entered the canal from the Mediterranean Sea early in the morning, heading south toward the Red Sea, and were expected to leave the canal Tuesday afternoon, the source said.

The ships had docked at the Syrian port of Tartous, in a show of support for Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, a regional ally of Iran.


Iranian navy ships return from Syria through Suez | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/21/us-syria-iran-canal-idUSTRE81K09B20120221)

[Milo Minderbinder]

or maybe they're playing at mind games and letting the Syrians know whats stacked against them in the hope they'll back down?
Unlikely that they will, but worth a try

[TEEEJ]

Pentagon disputes Tehran claim that Iranian ships docked at Syrian port - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/pentagon-disputes-tehran-claim-that-iranian-ships-docked-at-syrian-port/2012/02/21/gIQA5B7SRR_story.html)

[ORAC]

DefenseNews: Saudi Sends Military Gear to Syria Rebels: Diplomat (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120318/DEFREG04/303180002/Saudi-Sends-Military-Gear-Syria-Rebels-Diplomat?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE)

DUBAI — Saudi Arabia is delivering military equipment to Syrian rebels in an effort to stop bloodshed by President Bashar al-Assad’s regime, a top Arab diplomat said on March 17.

“Saudi military equipment is on its way to Jordan to arm the Free Syrian Army,” the diplomat told AFP on condition of anonymity. “This is a Saudi initiative to stop the massacres in Syria,” he added, saying that further “details will follow at a later time.”

The announcement came two days after the conservative Sunni-ruled kingdom said it had shut down its embassy in Syria and withdrawn all its staff. It also followed a brief meeting on the Syrian crisis last week between Jordan’s King Abdullah II and the Saudi monarch King Abdullah in Riyadh.

There was no official reaction to the statement from the Saudi capital, but Jordan flatly rejected the report.

“Jordan categorically denies the report,” government spokesman and information minister Rakan Majali told AFP. “This is completely baseless. Jordan has not discussed this issue with any parties or brought it up at all,” he said without elaborating, while adding that an official statement would be issued later on March 17.......

The diplomat’s statement on Saudi military supplies being sent to Syria came as Iraq told Iran it would not permit weapons shipments to the strife-torn country. Baghdad informed Tehran “that Iraq will not permit the use of its airspace or its territory for the transit of any arms cargo to Syria,” Iraqi government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh said..........

[Lonewolf_50]

I love it! The Saudis have decided to make things more interesting.

Tension between Iran and Saudi, and Iran and Iraq, look to increase.

This could become quite a mess in a short period of time.

(Note to self, get a box of popcorn when next at the store.)

[racedo]

Add it Iran arming Yemeni tribesmen who Saudi's have been using aircraft to bomb and Egypts Muslim Brotherhood linking with Iran a picture starts to emerge.........

NF Idea what the picture is but be not surprised if Saudi's attempt at taking down countries backfires.

[dead_pan]

Its about time the Saudis manned up and put to good use some of their vast, shiny arsenal, rather than continually bleat to the US to do their bidding.

How long before Assad and his crazybitch wife end up dead or exiled?

[racedo]

Its about time the Saudis manned up and put to good use some of their vast, shiny $$$$$$$$$$,

They did see
Taliban
9/11
Financing and supporting insurgency in Iraq
Financing and supporting Islamic groups round the globe

Pity the Saudi's don't try and introduce democracy into their own place first.

[parabellum]

They did see



Bit unfair there Racedo, rogue elements within Saudi have certainly funded terrorist actions, particularly Al Qaeda, but the main administration in Saudi have usually played it fairly straight with the western world.

As for democracy please see Egypt, Libya etc. Personal view only but I have lived and worked there and I believe that the Arab world don't want democracy as we in the west know it, just strong, fair leaders, but many of the countries are so tribally divided, (e.g. Libya), even that option seems unlikely.

[racedo]

Bit unfair there Racedo, rogue elements within Saudi have certainly funded terrorist actions, particularly Al Qaeda, but the main administration in Saudi have usually played it fairly straight with the western world.


Only when it suits there own interests though and they do little to stop the rogue elements.

[ORAC]

ABC News: Russian Anti-Terror Troops Arrive in Syria (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/russian-anti-terror-troops-arrive-syria/story?id=15954363)

MOSCOW, Russia, March 19, 2012

A Russian military unit has arrived in Syria, according to Russian news reports, a development that a United Nations Security Council source told ABC News was "a bomb" certain to have serious repercussions.

Russia, one of President Bashar al-Assad's strongest allies despite international condemnation of the government's violent crackdown on the country's uprising, has repeatedly blocked the United Nations Security Council's attempts to halt the violence, accusing the U.S. and its allies of trying to start another war.

Now the Russian Black Sea fleet's Iman tanker has arrived in the Syrian port of Tartus on the Mediterranean Sea with an anti-terror squad from the Russian Marines aboard according to the Interfax news agency. The Assad government has insisted it is fighting a terrorist insurgency. The Russian news reports did not elaborate on the Russian troops' mission in Syria or if they are expected to leave the port.

The presence of Russian troops in Syria could be a "pretty obvious" show of support to the regime, according to Russian security expert Mark Galeotti. "No one thinks of the Russians as anything but Assad's last friends," said Galeotti, professor of global affairs at New York University.

The Iman replaced another Russian ship "which had been sent to Syria for demonstrating (sic) the Russian presence in the turbulent region and possible evacuation of Russian citizens," the Black Sea Fleet told Interfax. RIA Novosti, a news outlet with strong ties to the Kremlin, trumpeted the news in a banner headline that appeared only on its Arabic language website. The Russian embassy to the U.S. and to the U.N. had no comment, saying they have "no particular information on" the arrival of a Russian anti-terrorism squad to Syria.

Moscow has long enjoyed a cozy relationship with the Assad regime, to which it sells billions of dollars of weapons. In return Russia has maintained a Navy base at Tartus, which gives it access to the Mediterranean.

Last week Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Russia had no plans to send troops to Syria. "As for the question whether I consider it necessary to confront the United States in Syria and ensure our military presence there… in order to take part in military actions -- no. I believe this would be against Russia's national interests," Lavrov told lawmakers, according to RIA Novosti.

[TEEEJ]

Orac,

Amazing how a story can get blown out of all proportion! This is just the standard marine protection force on the Russian Navy, tanker Iman. I've been tracking this vessel in Morse Code, call sign RMGB, ever since it left the Black Sea. The conspiracy nuts have got hold of it and are implying that the marines are being used to crush the rebels. Hardly likely that the Russians are going to deploy a ship for such a mission and allow it to transmit routine weather and sea state reports all the way from the Black Sea!

Even the Amur Class Repair Ship PM-56 (Call sign RIR98) that was previously in Tartus, Syria had a protection force on board. This also transmitted routine Morse weather and sea states on its transit to and back to the Black Sea.

BSF Floating Workshop PM-56 Returned to Sevastopol (http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=14190)

To provide security during the cruise, PM-56 had an anti-terror group and boarding party consisting of BSF marines.

The Russian Navy tanker Iman sent routine weather during 12 GMT today.

12464 Khz

RCV DE RMGB QSA ? QTC K @1204Z
RMGB 193 19 21 1600 193 BT SML FOR RJH45 RJE73 BT
21121 99349 10358 41998 03502 10190 40200 53001 70200 80000 22200 00190 20000 88000 80000 21015 BT AR
RMGB K

This is international weather code. See following for how to decode.

http://www.vos.noaa.gov/ObsHB-508/ObservingHandbook1_2010_508_compliant.pdf

From the second and third groups 99349 10358

This breaks to

34.9N 35.8E

Map Link (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=34.9N+35.8E&hl=en&t=m&z=12/)

From the 11th group the vessel is indicating 00 which means hove to / at anchor / stopped.

The rest is just weather and sea state code. For example the sixth group is the temperature Plus 19 degrees.

RCV = Head quarters Black Sea Fleet, Sevastopol
RMGB = Auxiliary Vessel Iman

Here was the Russian Navy tanker Iman back on 22 February at 12 GMT as she headed for the Bosphorus.

12464 Khz

RCV DE RMGB 22121 99443 10330 22252

44.3N 33.0E Heading South West at 6-10 Knots

Map Link (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=44.3N+33.0E&hl=en&t=m&z=6/)

[ORAC]

Turkish Gvt. Asks Authorization to Send Troops Abroad (http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/143024/turkish-gvt-asks-authorization-to-send-troops-abroad.html)

Turkish government appeals to parliament for dispatch of troops to foreign countries regarding Syria issue.

The Turkish government on Thursday presented a "Prime Ministry Motion" to the Turkish parliament which authorizes the government for a year to to send Turkish troops abroad regarding Syria issue.

Signed by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the motion covers;
"Ongoing crisis in Syria affects the stability and security in the region and now the escalating negativeness affects our national security. Syrian armed forces have been holding assailant acts under the name of military operations into Turkish land despite our several warnings and diplomatic tries since September 20, 2012. This situation risks and threatens our national security. In this respect, the need of taking precautions and acting quickly against any threats to Turkey has arisen. In the framework of the situation, according to Article 92 of the Turkish Constitution, we kindly ask Turkish parliament to discuss a motion that authorizes the government for a year to send Turkish troops to foreign countries." Turkish parliamentary general assembly convenes

The Turkish Parliamentary General Assembly convened on Thursday under the chairmanship of Deputy Parliament Speaker Mehmet Saglam.

Turkish Parliament Speaker Cemil Cicek, Turkish Deputy Prime Minister Bekir Bozdag and AK Party's group deputy chairmen came together to discuss "Prime Ministry Motion" which authorizes the government for a year to send Turkish troops abroad regarding Syria issue.

Closed-to-press meeting hosts AK Party Group deputy chairmen Nurettin Canikli and Mustafa Elitas as well as bureaucrats from Turkish parliament.

"Prime Ministry Motion" to be discussed in closed-door session
The ruling Justice and Development (AK) Party's group deputy chairman Nurettin Canikli has said that the "Prime Ministry Motion" would not be discussed in an open session at the Turkish Parliament.

[Lonewolf_50]

According to the news this morning, the Turks are now shooting back along the border here and there.

They might want to cleverly infiltrate into Syria a few miles to create a buffer zone (see the Blue line Israeli move into Lebanon for precedent, 1980s) in the name of keeping the fight out of their turf.

While fraught with political risk, it would be an ironic move considering Assad the Elder's moves into Lebanon a few decades ago.

Good fun, and by all means, play on! :ok:

[MTOW]

This is how world wars start. Something happens that makes one party "just a little bit pregnant".

[ORAC]

Torygraph: Syria and Turkey are on the brink of all-out war (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/davidblair/100184642/syria-and-turkey-are-on-the-brink-of-all-out-war/)

If anyone believed that Syria’s bloodshed would stay inside the country’s borders, the events of the last week should have put them right. I’m in southern Turkey, near the frontier with Syria, and this area feels like the new front line of the battle against Bashar al-Assad’s regime. Convoys of Turkish army vehicles ply the roads down to the border and, quietly, civilians are trickling away to safer areas............

[glojo]

Is Syria in any position to threaten or even defend against the military forces that Turkey might use?

Do we know for certain who is firing those mortars into Turkey? It might be an excellent way to get Turkey to do the work the Syrian rebels might be incapable of doing?

My enemy's enemy is my friend :8

[500N]

glojo

Counter battery computers doesn't tell you who fired what, just from where
but I believe the Turkish military did an analysis of the craters and once
determined what was what, used Radar to direct counter battery fire to
a very local area, that being an Assad military base.

They could have done a lot more.

I think Syria is really game taking on Turkey (and NATO ?)
at this point in time.

[glojo]

I am aware of the technology that can detect locations but it cannot tell who pulled the trigger :(

From what I understand, these mortars are only ingressing by a hundred metres or so but the bottom line is they are inbound from Syria and landing on Turkish sovereign soil.

I find it somewhat ironic that when the UK and the US asked Turkey to allow their troops to pass through Turkey to attack the Northern part of Iraq... Our NATO ally told us to take a hike!!!

I am NOT saying it is the Syrian rebels or who said the CIA??? :)

I just find it hard to believe that Syria with all her problems would want to annoy a Muslim neighbour?

[Ronald Reagan]

It seems insane the Syrian government would wish to provoke Turkey into entering the war against them! You would think they would do all they could to prevent that. The only ones who gain from full Turkish military action are the rebels. Maybe its them doing this to get what they want. Or possibly a military unit acting without government approval. It all seems so convenient!

[ORAC]

I just find it hard to believe that Syria with all her problems would want to annoy a Muslim neighbour? That assumes several things; including a coherent chain of command still being place and a sane and rational point of view from those in specific units. Which, with regular suicide bombings (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/two-suicide-bombs-hit-syrian-military-base-dozens-killed/story-fnd134gw-1226492427245)and killing of troops by Turkish sponsored and armed rebels is not necessarily the case either nationally or locally (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8546662/battles-for-key-north-syrian-towns).

[lj101]

I was recently struck by some photos and reports I saw on the al-Arabiya network, the most respected news outlet in the Middle East. There was a starving child in Yemen, a burnt-out ancient souk in Aleppo, Syria, car bombs in Iraq and destroyed buildings in Libya.
What links all these images is that the destruction and the atrocities were not perpetrated by an outside enemy. The starvation, the killings and the destruction in these Arab countries were carried out by the same hands that are supposed to protect and build the unity of these countries and safeguard their people. Who, therefore, is the real enemy of the Arab world?
Many Arabs would say it is Israel — their sworn enemy, an enemy whose existence they have never recognised. From 1948 to today there have been three full-scale wars and many confrontations. But what was the real cost of these wars to the Arab world and its people? The harder question that no Arab wants to ask is: what was the real cost of not recognising Israel in 1948 and why didn’t the Arab states spend their assets on education, healthcare and infrastructure instead of wars? But the very hardest question of all is whether Israel is the real enemy of the Arab world and the Arab people.
Hundreds of billions of dollars were wasted and tens of thousands of innocent lives lost fighting Israel. The Arab world, though, has many enemies and Israel should have been at the bottom of the list. The real enemies of the Arab world are corruption, lack of good education, lack of good healthcare, lack of freedom, lack of respect for human lives and, finally, the many dictators who used the Arab-Israeli conflict to suppress their own people. These dictators’ atrocities against their own citizens are far worse than all the full-scale Arab-Israeli wars.
In the past, we have talked about Israeli soldiers attacking and mistreating Palestinians. We have seen Israeli planes and tanks attack Arab countries. But these attacks in no way match the current atrocities being committed by some Arab states against their own people.
In Syria, the atrocities are beyond imagination. Aren’t the Iraqis the ones who are destroying their own country? Why would Iraqi brains leave Iraq in a country that makes $110 billion from oil exports? Wasn’t it Tunisia’s dictator who was able to steal $13 billion from the poor of his country? How can children starve in Yemen if their land is the most fertile in the world? Why have the Lebanese failed to govern one of the tiniest countries on the planet?
On May 14, 1948, the state of Israel was declared. On May 15, the Arabs declared war on Israel to win back Palestine. The war lasted for nearly ten months. The Arabs lost and now call it Nakbah (catastrophic war). The Arabs gained nothing and thousands of Palestinians became refugees.
In 1967 the Arabs went to war with Israel again and lost more Palestinian land, creating more refugees who now live at the mercy of the countries that host them. The Arabs called this war Naksah (setback).
The Arabs have never admitted defeat in either war. And now, with the Arab Spring, the Arab world has no time for the Palestinian refugees or the Palestinian cause because many Arabs have become refugees themselves and are under constant attacks from their own forces. Syrians are leaving their own country not because of Israeli planes dropping bombs on them but the Syrian Air Force doing so.
If many of the Arab states are in such disarray, we should contrast them with Israel. It now has the most advanced research facilities, top universities and infrastructure. Many Arabs don’t know that the life expectancy of Palestinians living in Israel is far greater than in many Arab states and they enjoy far greater political and social freedom than many of their Arab brothers. Even the Palestinians living under Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip enjoy more political and social rights than in some parts of the Arab world.
The Arab Spring showed the world that the Palestinians are happier and living better than their Arab brothers who fought to liberate them from the Israelis. It is time to stop the hatred and wars and create better living conditions for future Arab generations.
Abdulateef al-Mulhim is a former commodore of the Saudi Navy. This is an edited version of an article that first appeared in Arab News


Slight thread drift but interesting view from a retired Saudi Commodore in The Times on line today.

[Buster Hyman]

Slight thread drift but interesting view from a retired Saudi Commodore in The Times on line today.
Great read, but I give him a month before some nutter shoots him!

[Not_a_boffin]

Nah - The Wicked Witch will be along with her mates to call him an "intifada denier" or some such nonsense.

They will then demand a public show trial or at very least demand that he issues an apology for suggesting that the Red Sea Pedestrians are not an evil neo-imperialist theocracy........

[lj101]

The original article

Arab Spring and the Israeli enemy | ArabNews (http://www.arabnews.com/arab-spring-and-israeli-enemy)

[ORAC]

A storm of massive proportions is brewing in the MidEast (http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1774/a_storm_of_massive_proportions_is_brewing_in_the_mideast)

The region is splitting apart and ready to explode out of its largely artificial boundaries along two major fault lines, ethnic and religious, writes a former senior editor of the Jerusalem Post

..............Today, the Middle East is standing on the edge of an internecine eruption that is likely to sweep away the existing order and radically alter the regional order, with far-reaching strategic implications for the West.

The region is splitting apart and ready to explode out of its largely artificial boundaries along two major fault lines, ethnic and religious. These emerged most prominently after the toppling of Iraq’s Saddam Hussein in 2003. The ethnic divide is between Sunni and Shia Muslims; the religious divide is between the Islamic extremist Wahhabi and the even-more-extremist Salafi movements. The differences are not merely ideological, they are existential. The conflicts are likely to involve the major regional players: Sunni Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Turkey; Shia Iran, and, richest of all, pro-Salafi Qatar, where annual GDP is running at more than $100,000 per person. Jihadist movements like al-Qaeda will no doubt muscle in on the anarchy in an attempt to gain new adherents.

Just as world trade has become globalised, so too has Islamic violence. Such conflicts are unlikely to be contained within the Middle East and will quickly spread to other Islamic states in Asia (principally Pakistan, Indonesia and Malaysia) and Africa (primarily the Maghreb states of Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria and Libya, but also sub-Saharan states with significant Muslim populations, like Nigeria). Nor are they likely to involve large-scale, set-piece battles between states with armies or tanks (though these will, as in Syria, be deployed against the “rebels”). Rather, they will involve the sort of insurgency that devastated Iraq, complete with human, car and truck bombs, inter-communal, inter-ethnic and inter-tribal clashes, all resulting in significant population movements to meet the ever-insistent demands of the ethnic cleansers.

Under these strains, allegiances will fray and law-enforcement agencies – the army, police and intelligence services – will fragment. Ultimately, bureaucracies and political leaderships will disintegrate. We’ve seen the movie before. But what we have seen is a work in progress. So far, no one has witnessed the final scenes. Nobody is predicting the outcome; the only certainty is that the end-game is totally uncertain. The conflict will be protracted, uncontrollable and unresponsive to Western diplomacy, however tough or nuanced. There will be no men in white hats and black hats. Only bad guys and worse guys.

That, according to my source, is the bleak outlook for his region. But political instability in the Middle East also plays into the domestic political agenda of Europe and the West in general. For the West – indeed, for the industrialised world – the nightmare is only just beginning. Two sources of grief are likely to be high on the agenda of any insurgency.

The first is the closing of what are known in the shipping business as "chokepoints" through which energy and trade must navigate. In the Middle East, these are primarily the Persian Gulf and the Suez Canal.

The second is an attack on Saudi Arabia’s riches by secessionist Shia, who form the dominant group in the eastern region of Saudi Arabia, which is home to the oilfields (the Saudi Shia can expect assistance from Shia across the border in Iraq’s matching oil-rich region)....................

[Rosevidney1]

Quite right ORAC. Today the Middle East and eventually the overpopulated world.

[ORAC]

Streetwise Professor: Speaking of Filling a Vacuum... (http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=6640)

[ORAC]

Fears Turkey-Syria conflict could escalate as tanks are sent to border in warning to Assad (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/fears-turkey-syria-conflict-could-escalate-1379607)

TURKISH forces were put on yellow alert after Syria bombarded towns in the north resulting in warships being positions along the Mediterranean coast.

http://i1.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article1379606.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Syria+conflict.jpg

WARSHIPS and hundreds of battle tanks rushed to protect Turkey’s southern border yesterday as civil war threatened to spread beyond Syria. As Turkish naval destroyers patrolled the Mediterranean coast, an armoured brigade of tanks dug in along the 560-mile flashpoint Turkey-Syria border.

The military escalation came as Turkey warned it will smash President Assad’s forces if they bombard towns north of their boundary one more time. Turkish forces were on “yellow alert” just one step down from a red alert for all-out warfare – as Syrian refugees fled across the border and locals left the region.

As preparations for war were ordered by Turkish prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the UN was reeling from his accusations they failed to act against Syria.

Turkish artillery has hit back a dozen times in the past two weeks, killing 12 Syrian soldiers, but fears are growing that fresh cross-border shelling will lead to war. If that happens NATO – and therefore Britain – could be sucked into conflict against Syria, which is supported by Iran, Russia and Hezbollah in neighbouring Lebanon.

In the Turkish border town of Akcakale, where two women and three children were killed by a Syrian mortar attack just days ago, tension was growing. Troops were digging in artillery positions and just outside the town, the army were excavating huge pits to hide deadly T-155 Firtina-Storm howitzers.

Many locals have already fled but some have nowhere to go. Emina Atsiz, 80, wept at the bombed ruins of a neighbour’s house. She said: “I stay outside because I am frightened of another bomb. We will be swallowed up by war if nobody helps us.”

Syrian refugee Mah Shay Mohammed, 28, was shot by Assad’s troops in Aleppo about 100 miles away. He said: “Assad cannot last without support. I am worried the war could spread here too unless the rest of the world steps in.”

[Jumping_Jack]

There is always a 'rebel without a cause' isn't there....check out 'Tank No2'! :D

[glojo]

I think #2 is pleased to see you but the rest just have 'brewers droop'

[Buster Hyman]

Yeah, Tank 2 isn't the sharpest tool in the box. Someone must've shouted "Mine!"

[Lonewolf_50]

Perhaps the Turks are about to get a little payback on some Arab groups who tossed them out, with some help from the Brits et al, in about 1916-1918.

I also think that they are about to remind said Arabs that they are better at this war thing.

Looks to be quite interesting.

I think I'll open up a body bag business on the side. The market seems to be expanding.

[Robert Cooper]

For months, the U.S. has been helping Arab allies coordinate arms shipments to rebel fighters in Syria. Unfortunately, most of those weapons are going to radical Islamists instead of secular opposition groups. According to a classified government report uncovered by The New York Times reporter David Sanger, the flood of Saudi and Qatari weapons into Syria is strengthening the hand of extremist groups in the country, including those with ties to Al Qaeda. “The opposition groups that are receiving the most of the lethal aid are exactly the ones we don’t want to have it,” a U.S. official says.

Looks as though Syria will go the way of Libya and Egypt. We are in the process of losing the Middle East.

Bob C :sad:

[ORAC]

National Review: Erdogan and Assad at War
(http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/330499/erdogan-and-assad-war-daniel-pipes)

The Turkish prime minister’s ambitions are driving his country closer to conflict.

.............A decade of success went to Erdogan’s head, tempting him into a Syrian misadventure that could undermine his popularity. He might yet learn from his mistakes and backtrack, but for now the padishah of Ankara is doubling down on his jihad against the Assad regime, driving hard for its collapse and his salvation.

To answer my opening question: Turkish bellicosity results primarily from one man’s ambition and ego. Western states should stay completely away and let him be hoist with his own petard.

[Lonewolf_50]

Two points in response to Robert Cooper
We are in the process of losing the Middle East.
1. You can't spend what you ain't got, can't lose what you never had. (Lyrics from an Allman Brother's tune that seem apropos).

2. Who the heck is "we" in this case? :confused:

ORAC: thanks for the link. Comments anon ...

EDITED LATER:

Pipes is reasonably up to speed on that region, but he spins a certain direction. I'd take his predictions with a grain of salt ... see his alarmist article (linked within the article you provided) on the autumn 1998 Syria-Turkey tensions.

That said, the Turks have in the past two years let their rapport with Israel fade, and have been doing a bit of chest thumping to show that they are a local Power not to be trifled with.

An interesting (Sunni) counterpoint to Iran (Shia), don't you think? Two old empires finding their feet again ... a development that suggests to me that more blood will flow. Empires seem to thrive on blood and iron.

[Robert Cooper]

Lonewolf,

The point I was making was that the diplomatic and political influence of the US and UK in the Middle East is diminishing rapidly as fundamental Islam takes over piece by piece.

Post 105 above by ORAC is spot on.

Bob C

[Lonewolf_50]

Robert, one of the few constant things in this world is change. Change isn't always for "the better" depending upon where you sit, but you can count on things to change.

Pardon me if I don't get all bent out of shape over this latest flux in the status quo. Whether or not "our" influence is needed at level "X" in order to achieve various national goals and aims is a matter of considerable difference in opinion.

For the folks who live in the region's various countries, the decrease of foreign involvement, entanglement, and influence is most probably seen as beneficial. What may be most troubling, at least within the region, is the possibility that even if US or UK involvement is on the wane, Iranian involvement and influence may be waxing.

The Persians are foreigners as well, to most of those in the Levant.

[ORAC]

Lonewolf, FYI, opinion on the street in Turkey.

Editorial Opnion piece from Huriyet: Facts and lies about Turkey vs. Syria (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/facts-and-lies-about-turkey-vs-syria.aspx?PageID=238&NID=32581&NewsCatID=398)

[Lonewolf_50]

Thanks for the opinion piece, with an eye toward this opinion writer being a bit of a pro Israel Turk (if he is indeed a Turk).

Not sure how representative that opinion piece is of "the street" but it was a fun read anyway.

Thanks! :D

I liked these two tidbits the best:

... Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu keeps on saying that “[on Syria] Turkey has acted in line with the international community,” without specifying who the “international community” really is. We understand that nearly 3.5 billion Russians, Chinese, Indians, Iranians and Brazilians don’t count as the “international community.”
That got a modest grin out of me.

... there is another aspect to how the colorful Turkish rhetoric in justifying the passionate “let’s bomb Damascus wish” fails to impress even most pro-government Turks.
After the eighth mortar fell onto Turkish territory and killed five innocent Turks, the prime minister made it clear that this could not be an accident: “You don’t make a mistake eight times.”
He was right, but only selectively.
Politicians typically toss in a few facts amongst the usual crapola in order to shore up possible credibility. Not a trick unique to Turks. ;)

[tonker]

LiveLeak.com - Helicopter explodes in the sky

[Heathrow Harry]

"The point I was making was that the diplomatic and political influence of the US and UK in the Middle East is diminishing rapidly as fundamental Islam takes over piece by piece"

and there was silly old me thinking it all went south when we invaded Egypt in '56 and the Yanks backed the Israelis through the '60's

[Robert Cooper]

Truth be told, American influence in the Middle East peaked in 1956, when President Eisenhower ordered Britain, France, and Israel to withdraw from the Suez Canal Zone. However, having thus generated a reservoir of goodwill in the Arab Middle East, the White House later squandered it by halting U.S. aide for the Aswan Dam project as punishment for Nasser's Arab nationalist movement. American influence in the Middle East has been waning ever since, though it spiked briefly in 1991, when then-President George H.W. Bush leveraged the successful ousting of Iraqi troops from Kuwait into a three-day Arab-Israeli peace conference in Madrid.

Bob C

[Lonewolf_50]

tonker, there is a thread regarding the helicopter that went down in Syria on another sub forum here. Suggest you take the liveleak clip there for discussion.

Robert, I find your assessment mildly myopic and narrow.

US support to Israel in the 1973 war had a non trivial impact on Israeli success. (It also got the various Arab and OPEC fired up to get that boycott started, and I do remember the gas lines that resulted).

US influence in the Mid East INCREASED after the Camp David accords were signed, and the US began improving ties with Egypt (and sending them both arms and money). Likewise US arms sales to Saudi in the 80's, and connections with a number of the various emirates in the region.

The culmination of this effort was a very fertile ground for putting a local alliance together in 1991.

American decision to go into Iraq (2003) is a sort of influence in a major way, for good and ill. It made a signal difference in what went on in that region for a decade -- for good and ill.

Pulling out of Iraq was a first step toward taking a far less hands on approcah than in the previous 20 or so years. The fiddle farting around in Libya is small change.

[ORAC]

Syrian helicopter downed.

LnaPdqQj-U4#!

[Lonewolf_50]

Hmm, so that's a second helicopter noted as going down over Syria in recent weeks.

Was it on fire on the way down (smoke trailing)?
From the brief film clip, that seems to be a version of helicopter OCF before the fireball erupts.

[ORAC]

Rebels now have their hands on Sa-16/18 from the air bases they've taken.

Syrian Rebels Claim They Shot Down Fighter Jet With A Missile (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/11/28/166093048/syrian-rebels-claim-they-shot-down-fighter-jet-with-a-missile)

whGg7IcgQn8

Syrian rebels claim they shot down a MiG fighter jet not far from the Syrian-Turkish border on Wednesday. Along with the downing of a military helicopter on Tuesday, it would appear to be one of the first times rebels have successfully used a kind of weapon called a MANPAD, or portable, shoulder-fired, surface-to-air missile that can hit a plane in fight.

The development would mark a turning point in the rebels' bid to unseat Syrian President Bashar Assad.

Rebels say the Russian-made MiG fighter jet was shot down Wednesday morning near the town of Daarat Azzah, on the road north of the embattled city of Aleppo.

This video shows the plane bursting into flames (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whGg7IcgQn8&feature=youtu.be%20) in a clear blue sky then falling to the ground. The cameraman can be heard saying, "God is greatest."

Another video shows rebel fighters carry a wounded pilot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBBPTkoV-_Q&feature=youtu.be) from the wreckage. Abed Jabar Ogedi, head of the rebel military council in Aleppo, told NPR that a second pilot died.

The first pilot is treated in a field hospital. One medic speaks with an Egyptian accent. Another voice in the background says, "We want him alive."

A later video shows the pilot snoring on a stretcher, as rebels announce they're giving him proper medical treatment.

Then another video was released, this one showing a bearded man in a heavy coat and sunglasses describing how he shot down the plane with a rocket that's resting on his shoulder (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9MaWjdF8hNk). He calls it an "Igla," which is the Russian name for an SA-16 or an SA-18.

It's a kind of missile that was used to take out planes during earlier conflicts in Bosnia, Rwanda and Iraq.

The fighter says the rebels seized the weapon when they overtook a Syrian army base earlier this month. Rebels have seized similar weapons before but this is the first time they appear to have used this particular system successfully.

Military analysts say this could show that the rebels are building momentum. Up to this point, the Syrian regime has controlled the skies and this has often given them the upper hand. Hundreds if not thousands of civilians have been killed in air strikes since this summer.

Rebels say they hope the threat of a rebel missile strike will force the regime to think twice before employing the air force now.

[Lonewolf_50]

The fighter says the rebels seized the weapon when they overtook a Syrian army base earlier this month. Rebels have seized similar weapons before but this is the first time they appear to have used this particular system successfully.




How many did they get?

How many will they sell on the international arms market to fund the revolt?

Not good news to see loose SA 16 and SA 18's in the mix.

:(

[ORAC]

Syria Shuts Down Cell Service, Internet, Flights (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/334371/syria-shuts-down-cell-service-internet-flights-patrick-brennan)

According to Internet-intelligence company Renesys, the Internet has been shut down throughout Syria, while the AP has learned that cell service is off in at least parts of the country. Further, Al Jazeera reports that rebels are advancing along the main road to Damascus’s airport and are within a couple kilometers, prompting the airport to halt all commercial flights...........

[ORAC]

NATO Expected To Give Go-Ahead to Patriot Deployment in Turkey (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20121202/DEFREG01/312020003/NATO-Expected-Give-Go-Ahead-Patriot-Deployment-Turkey?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE)

[Lonewolf_50]

While I agree that this move is a prudent on to help out a NATO ally in a tense time, I have to wonder:

Is anyone in the Syrian regime stupid enough to begin deliberately launching missiles at Turkey, who have a non trivial military capability?

That would massively add to Assad's problem, above and beyond his considerable troubles with rebels, not reduce them.

[West Coast]

No, but I could see the rebels lobbing captured munitions over the fence to incite the Turks.

[Lonewolf_50]

More disturbing news, not sure what to make of it.

Western intel sources have been reporting that Syrian forces who are charged with chemical weapons tasks have been put on alert, or given warning orders, to be prepared or prepare.

Other sources suggest that shells and bombs are being prepped for chemical weaponization, or are infact being loaded with sarin.

At the least, President Obama has spoken to the media with a message for Assad, telling him of the world's disapproval, blah blah blah, and "there will be consequences." I suppose he had to say something.

What gets me is that if Assad is in very desperate straights, and he and his inside circle think they need chem weapons, then things are getting worse, not better, in Syria.

The mad colonel in Libya indicated that he'd go down swinging.
Well, Assad may be taking the same approach.

Maybe if his allies, like Iran, were to speak up very publicly that chemical weapons need to be left untouched there might be a response.

How does anyone from the outside stop him from using them?
I don't think anyone can.

Is that infamous UN No Fly Zone move about to be tried?

[ORAC]

SYRIAN REBELS SEIZE KEY AIR BASE, ACTIVISTS SAY (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/activists-say-syrian-rebels-take-full-control-key-air-base-countrys-north)

BEIRUT (AP) — Islamic militants seeking to topple President Bashar Assad took full control of a strategic northwestern air base Friday in a significant blow to government forces, seizing helicopters, tanks and multiple rocket launchers, activists said.

The Taftanaz air base in the northern Idlib province is considered the biggest field in the country's north for helicopters used to bomb rebel-held areas and deliver supplies to government troops. Rebels from al-Qaida affiliated Jabhat al-Nusra and other Islamic groups have been fighting for weeks for control of the sprawling facility and broke into it on Wednesday evening. Activists said the rebels seized control of buildings, ammunition and military equipment after ferocious fighting at dawn.

"As of now, the rebels are in full control of the air base," said Idlib-based activist Mohammad Kanaan..........

JSRmDjYa3L8

7vJJ3VZ_cqk

[ORAC]

Guess what, it's all the fault of those dastardly Jews. They're working with both sides!! Then again, maybe it's just the usual regional paranoia. :hmm:

Bashar al-Assad accuses Israel of trying to 'destabilise' Syria (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9846032/Bashar-al-Assad-accuses-Israel-of-trying-to-destabilise-Syria.html)

Bashar al-Assad accused Israel of trying to "destabilise" his country as he claimed last week's airstrike showed the Jewish state was behind the revolution seeking to overthrow his regime.

Turkey slams Syria's inaction over 'Israeli strike' (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4340049,00.html)

..........The foreign minister suggested there might exist a collaborative conspiracy between Israel and Assad's regime. "Is there a secret agreement between Assad and Israel? The Assad regime only abuses. Why don't you use the same power that you use against defenseless women against Israel, which you have seen as an enemy since its foundation," he said........

[Lonewolf_50]

That's sorta funny.

[Lonewolf_50]

In the not so funny department, over on Rotorheads there's a video of what looks to be a MANPAD engagement versus an Mi helicopter that chills the bone.

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/508891-mil-down-syria.html

Just how many MANPADS are there running about loose in Syria ... and elsewhere? :eek: