Virgin drops below assigned altitude into Melbourne

[RobShan]

No indication of busting LSALT but looks like going low is not restricted to Tiger.

While on approach to Melbourne, air traffic control observed the aircraft about 700 ft below its assigned altitude. The investigation is continuing.

Investigation: AO-2011-091 - Operational non-compliance - Embraer ERJ 190, VH-ZPA, near Essendon Airport, 30 July 2011 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2011/aair/ao-2011-091.aspx)

[ReverseFlight]

Don't you love Oz.
Great lifestyle.
Equal opportunities.
Level playing field.
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Servo]

Star onto runway 34 perhaps with alt restriction 2500A at Sheed not met maybe?? Time will tell.

[greenslopes]

Which just goes to show we're all human.................. and humans make mistakes!

[The Bunglerat]

I'm not going to defend the E-jet guys, nor am I going to stick it to the Tiger pilots either. As has been said, we're all human, however it's my understanding that whilst the Tiger incidents were the final straw in CASA's decision to pull the plug, the bigger issue there has been one of oversight & accountability (or lack of) on a management & safety/standards level.

Two airlines, two similar incidents, but two very different cultures when it comes to dotting the "I's" & crossing the "T's".

[PeterTG]

er, three I think

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/458383-thai-airways-really-low-around-melbourne-airport.html

[amos2]

"Which just goes to show we're all human.................. and humans make mistakes!"...

and those mistakes kill people, greenslope!

And that's ok with you is it?

[Old Fella]

Reverse Flight Would you like to expand on your post? Seems you do not believe there is a "level playing field", which I presume is aimed at Tiger being grounded for flying below LSA whilst Virgin are being "investigated" for descending below assigned altitude. As others have posted, Tiger was grounded for multiple shortcomings we are told.

[fermion]

.. and let me guess amos2, you have never made a mistake while flying ? If that is the case you are probably the most exceptional human on the planet. :hmm:

[amos2]

"If that is the case you are probably the most exceptional human on the planet."

Not at all Ferm...just a normal pilot who spent 40 yrs on RPT ops and never busted altitude, which is as unforgivable as running out of fuel or forgetting to lower the gear!

I guess you and your sloppy mate greenslope reckon any of the above just proves that were all human too, eh?

It's all about dedication, motivation, training and striving to achieve high standards!

Any of that make any sense to you?

[SteaminDivet]

"just a normal pilot who spent 40 yrs on RPT ops and never busted altitude"

Not one that you know about huh? Long draw of the bow that one. Maybe you should rephrase it to. "never busted an altitude that I remember busting at the time, or that went completely unnoticed or with my high level of standard was brought to my attention by my properly chastised F/O"
:hmm:

[fermion]

said amos2
"It's all about dedication, motivation, training and striving to achieve high standards!"

Well I have news for you amos2, dedication, motivation, training and striving to achieve high standards does not guarantee an individual will not make errors. How those errors are managed is important. Unless of course it is someone like you who never make errors. BTW I have 35 years in the industry flying many types from small singles to jet transport aircraft - and I still make errors.

[fermion]

amos2, I forgot to ask, are you out of the aviation industry yet ? I hope so because your arrogant, 'holier than thou' attitude stinks.

[harrowing]

This was Ansett's approach to flying. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
There are many ways of achieving this outcome.
A strict adherence to safety is paramount. How this is achieved varies.
I think a few egos are on the line here. Personal insults are not the most constructive method of discussing any subject.
Maybe we all like to think our method is best and no-one else has the right approach? CRM has changed things a little.
Pride in doing a job to the best of your ability should be high on the agenda.
I have heard of pilots coming out of a coroner's inquest as totally changed individuals. A good lawyer can tear you apart.
I was told many moons ago we need to be error conscious, not necessarily error free.
Food for thought. Sunday morning ramblings.
Cheers

[framer]

I was told many moons ago we need to be error conscious, not necessarily error free.
Sounds like good advice in that aimimg for something that is impossible will only frustrate you.
Every single human being makes mistakes every single day. Some make less than others but nobody is error free (I think we all know that and I don't think Amos was saying he is something special).
It should be all of our goals to reduce the number of errors we do make at work. The best way to do that is to recognise which situations we and our workmates are most likely to make mistakes in, and then keep an eye out for them. When we spot one. Lsow down or unload some pressure.
My take is that that is exactly what successful and experienced pilots have always done, it's just now that CRM is teaching it formerly and the youngsters can accelerate towards that skill level faster than if they learnt it the hard way.
Framer

[Keg]

Sounds like good advice in that aimimg for something that is impossible will only frustrate you.


Tony Kern (and probably a bunch of others too but it's been a few years since I got into the research data) would disagree.



Human error is the thief of human
happiness and the slayer of dreams,
careers, potential, and all too frequently - life itself. Viewing it as anything less hostile is to willfully expose your throat
to the knife.

Tony Kern
Blue Threat (http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Threat-Why-Err-Inhuman/dp/0984206302/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1313275683&sr=8-1)
2009

Having done one of Tony's seminars, his thinking on errors, their prevalence, their tacit acceptance (as some have demonstrated on this thread), their mitigation, is quite enlightening.

Putting Tony's principles to the test is hard work. Contrary to framer's assertion, it's not frustrating, it's actually very rewarding. I haven't had the 'perfect flight' yet- and to be honest, some days I just forget to apply all his principles- but the days I apply his principles, my error rate is decreased and my ability to capture errors in others increases.

Consider if this way. If you're prepared to accept a 90% when 80% is the 'pass mark', you'll be in strife when one day the circumstances conspire to require a 98% in order to stay alive. Aircraft prangs continue to highlight this point- Air France being a recent example.

If you haven't read Tony's books, it's worth doing so. :D

[framer]

Fair call Keg.
In way of an explanation, I too try to get to that perfect flight. I strongly believe that anticipating when the errors are most likely is the best way to work towards achieving that.At the same time I know I will never be a perfect human machine and not make any mistakes. To give perspective, my sights are personally set pretty high, probably at an unachieveable level. I haven't been lucky enough to go to one of his seminars but two of his books have a permanant place in my office :)
Have a good one, Framer

[kneedeep]

i ve flown with lots of captains and have found the ones that are gruff and unforgiveable make my day to day flying unbearable. Friendly and understanding captain usually has a much more productice environment in the cockpit and the FO and SO can concentrate on other things. I do understand though there is a fine line of being to laxed. The captains captain are usually old codgers or young punks with an ego or the ones that are nervous and have no spare brain power to deal with variations. e.g must do top of descent checks 10 nm before and if it happens to be 5nm due to other circumstances, see the sweat start to pour down the forehead, this is in CAVOK calm conditions. Tightly gripped controls, making immediate and rapid adjustments to the gently sway of flight. To the dismay of the people in the very rear.
Waffling on now just i hate how if flying was invented today how much a better product it would be than the currant system we have where small adjustments are made since the 1960s. Still get weather forecasts in code and black and white text, when we ould be getting live cam feeds, pictures etc.. etc..

[peuce]

My question is ... why are we having all these "low flying" incidents ... around Melbourne?

Is it the Mexican Triangle?

Is there something wrong with the charts?

Is there something wrong with ATC procedures?

Is it just the weather?

[SteaminDivet]

Error management!
Getting to the root of the problem. Peuce has the right thought process, a holy than thou attitude doesn't expose WHY it is happening more than usual. This has created awareness going into MEL, but why all of a sudden are we having a lot more? Fatigue? Database issues? Lack of engagement? Searching, searching....:confused:

[ReverseFlight]

Old Fella: need I list all incidents at Qantas in the last couple of years ? If that's not multiple shortcomings, I don't know what is. You know exactly what I mean.

[amos2]

You having a bit of a problem there, knee-deep?

...and SteaminDivet, none of what you suggest mate, just poor airmanship!

[Lookleft]

But it seems that there is a problem with airmanship only in Melbourne.

[SteaminDivet]

I rest my case Amos. You cite poor airmanship based on your opinion of a situation of which you have absolutely no fact on. Make that statement after reading an ATSB report, not a rumor forum. Your comments are nothing short of a cheap shot at some guys that were in a flight deck where an error was made. To assume the error was purely due to poor airmanship shows an attitude of shoot first and ask questions later.
What a great philosophy to operate on.
I'd prefer to find the facts and why it happened and then adjust to increase safety. But you know better with your 40 years sir.
Look left, I agree with your sentiments.

[fermion]

Amos2, you have real no details on the incident, no knowledge of what actually transpired in the flight deck, no knowledge of the individudals involved and yet you are passing judgement on others. Like I said before, your arrogant, 'holier than thou' attitude stinks. I would hate to spend 8 or 10hours on a flight deck with someone like you.:yuk:

[amos2]

So, are all of you saying that you all bust altitudes from time to time?

And you're happy with that?

But if you don't bust altitudes, and others do, you're happy with that?

'cause there might have been a problem on the flight deck?

What sort of problem would that be? Non standard procedures perhaps?

Do you lot have any discipline whatsoever to SOP's ?

[SteaminDivet]

No, Thats not what I am saying. You obviously don't understand. But we all expected that. You have nothing worthwhile to add to this discussion that is proactive.

[Mr snuffaluffagus]

amos2, can I ask some advice?

While very new to jet aircraft I busted an altitude whilst leveling out at cruise altitude in a high speed climb. I had never encountered a climb with a level out into a 150kt jet stream and in my attempt to control the aircraft without throwing passengers around I went 250 foot above assigned cruising level. I have studied our SOP's and couldn't find a reference to leveling out into a jet stream in them. Nor could I find one in the aircraft manual. The endorsement didn't cover that scenario and it hadn't come up in conversation, so unfortunately I found out by making an error, which in turn has given me valuable knowledge.

In your almighty opinion should I have just handed in my notice, packed my bags and set up a fruit and veg stand, or should I continue to learn, including through both my and other peoples errors, making a concerted effort to avoid them and continue to learn every day of my career?

[amos2]

I like your style Buddy! I think you'll go far! ;)

[amos2]

...running a fruit and veggie stand that is!

What's the limit Buddy?

+ or - 100ft? Does that ring a bell to meet a first class IR standard?

Back to the sim for you to lift your standard Buddy!

[Keg]

While very new to jet aircraft I busted an altitude whilst leveling out at cruise altitude in a high speed climb. I had never encountered a climb with a level out into a 150kt jet stream...

What was the Captain doing?

[hoss]

Probably heads down checking the SIGWX!

Doh ;).

ps. I agree with Amos and Keg, aim high, stay disciplined and develop safe habits.

[GAFA]

Or checking the WX in the newspaper.

[Keg]

The other question is why wasn't it discussed during line training? I certainly recall that being discussed when I was a S/O at QF before I even got into the front seat. It was re-iterated during F/O line training 'discussion items' and after having checked out, the first time I selected 320 knots climbing into a jet the Captain asked me how I was going to respond to the overshoot shear as it came in.

[Captain Peacock]

What was the Captain doing?
Maybe he was the captain? It's where our industry is headed..... :sad:

[Utradar]

Could I suggest some of you with attitude tone it down a little.

It's not acceptable to bust altitudes but do you think the guys/gals who did, did it intentionally?? I doubt it - maybe risk mitigation strategies aren't being taught like they used to. Having said that, I know several 'old school' captains that make more mistakes than 'newbies'.
But if you haven't made a mistake or several in your 40 year career, then you're kidding yourselves.

No old bold pilots - I know that not to be the case!

[amos2]

That's a poor response spoiler!
Nobody deliberately kills themselves, they usually die because of incompetence!

[greenslopes]

anus 2, ooopps sorry there goes one of those silly human errors.

[Anthill]

I can categorically state that I have NEVER busted an altitude.:ok:


Instead, I have found far more inventive ways in which to stuff up :sad:

[Utradar]

Amos,

WHATEVS!

Just make sure you let everyone know next time you make a mistake!
I don't condone incompetence like busting altitudes, I just accept humans make errrors that's all. It's part of learning and forms experience.

You'd be probably wiser to agree with me.

There, is that a better response?

[Mr snuffaluffagus]

Clearly my point was missed.

Make fun of my mistake if you wish, I certainly was very dirty with myself because of it. Yes it could have been discussed in training - but it wasn't, yes the captain could have interjected - but he didn't. Thankfully however, my employer did not see fit to crucify me for this mistake as some on this post would have it.
Ideally, someone who is now in the same role I was then, reads this post and might even learn from my mistake. Possibly someone very similar to yourself Amos, who will never made a mistake of their own to learn from.

[Keg]

Actually, I think we all got your point. Some people appear to be quite happy to accept that mistakes happen and don't seem to fully comprehend the significant difference in the acceptance that they happen and fighting tooth and nail to avoid them in the first place.

However, I don't think you realised you also made another point. Poor training and supervision means that errors will occur at times when they shouldn't. Fantastic that you're passing that lesson along but the system has failed if it allowed you to make that particular mistake in the first place. It's not like we haven't seen that error before.

[greenslopes]

I think you'd be hard pressed finding anyone being a professional aviator who would suggest mistakes are OK and to should be tolerated.

The view I expressed way back at the start of this thread was that being human we make mistakes and there but for the grace of God go I, meaning that no matter how rigorous the training or robust the safety management system people still make mistakes.

Herein lies the problem. Firstly determining the motivating force behind the mistakes made, and secondly ensuring these errors (latent or active) do not occur again.

You will never stop errors being made where the intention has been to violate an SOP or regulatory requirement.
The introduction of SMS's, LOSA's, and behavioural marker systems can moderate deviant behaviour, however having said that it is still reactionary and cannot respond to the undesired behaviour till it is evident.

No pilot flies without making errors, they may be small in comparison to altitude breaches but nevertheless they are errors and Keg you are quite right in saying they should neither be tolerated nor promoted.

[amos2]

Yeah, well...unfortunately Greenie, you and your mate Snuffles are talking new age pilots nonsense!

Get into the real aviation world where you take responsibility for your own actions!

Have a quite chat on the side with Keg, listen and learn from him, 'cause quite frankly, I can't be bothered with either of you any more!!

[greenslopes]

Don't go Anus,

I'm dying to hear your pearls of wisdom. I'm still waiting for you to put forward something which would benefit this forum.
Enough of your inconclusive remarks, they only make you appear shallow and insecure.
Come on big fella, put on that thinking cap and come up with something original

Bueller.........Bueller.............. Bueller..................

[Mr snuffaluffagus]

Thanks for the advice Amos, I agree wholeheartedly. Keg provides some very useful wisdom which I take good note of. Seems like a wise operator. That said, I am very aware of the difference in the acceptance that errors happen and in fighting tooth and nail to avoid them in the first place. However, just because I do one does not mean I eliminate the other.

Though I do agree with you, my error - my fault (I certainly didn't put it on anyone else's shoulders), in general I find your posts useless for a fellow aviator.

But as you say, enough. Can't keep this up against such arrogance / ignorance.

[Servo]

Keg,

Many thanks for the book reference. I had one of Tony Kern's original books "Flight Discipline".

Via Amazon, I purchased "Redefining Airmanship", "Blue Threat" and "Fate is the Hunter".

On a "separate" note:

We are human, we make mistakes. As professionals we need to minimise the mistakes we are going to make. How? Discipline, Awareness, Hard Work and maintaining a high standard.

Also we must foster and encourage the same awareness and attitudes in our fellow aviators.

Overall be safe and don't make a difficult job more difficult with holier than though attitudes.

Cheers

Servo