Tattoos and the helicopter industry

[rotorcrafty]

As anyone who has them will tell you tattoos are addictive.

I currently have on on my right arm going over to my chest, it starts about halfway up my bicep so it is easily covered if I want to. I'm planning on starting on a half sleeve on my left arm. For those that don't know what that is, a half sleeve starts at the top of the shoulder, ending just above the elbow, completely covering that part of the arm.

I'm also hoping to start training for a commercial license (currently 0 hours), not sure where either the US, Oz or possibly Canada. Can anyone give me any advice on having tattoos in this industry? People's attitudes are slowly changing but there is still prejudice around. Could I go through all the training and then find the tattoos I have will hinder me from getting work.

Any opinions I'll be very interested to hear.

[SASless]

Anything a short sleeve shirt and long trousers will not expose is fine probably.....just ask yourself if your boss would want you representing his company to clients.

As in everything in life....it is not what you think....but what others think...that matters in dress and conduct....when it comes to earning a living.

[hands_on123]

Given the helicopter industry is a very hard one to make a career in, and you need to maximise your chances of getting a job, I would err on the side of being conservative and avoid a tattoo.

Imagine you went for a job as a VIP pilot, and the Chief Pilot had to choose between someone with tattoos, and someone without. He might think "do I want VIP customers to see a pilot with tattoos? Mmmm.. I better not take the risk".

I know it shoudn't matter, and the way pilots dress shouldn't matter either, but you always see pilots dressed in the "uniform" of black trousers, white shirt, gold bars etc, as that is what customers expect professional pilots to look like.

How Tattoos and Body Piercing Affect Your Career | Resumark Blog - Get Paid to Post Resume and Search Jobs Online (http://www.resumark.com/blog/tatiana/how-tattoos-and-body-piercing-affect-your-career/)

[FH1100 Pilot]

Wow, touchy subject. But I'll give you my take. I'm 55, and I'm in a generation that sees ornate tattoos as a negative - something that convicts get while they're in prison. As you say, this is changing, but lots of Chief Pilots are still in my age range. And if I were a Chief Pilot and you came to me for a job and I saw your tattoos, I'd pick someone else. If I discovered them after the fact (like if you were successful at hiding them from me in the interview and got hired), I'd get rid of you at the FIRST opportunity. Gone. Why?

Look, nobody cares about the single tattoo you got on your bicep when you were in the military. Rite of passage, I get that. But to me, multiple or large/colorful tattoos that transition into "body art" signify a certain non-comformist attitude - and definitely an anti-authority attitude! These are two attitudes that I absolutely do NOT want in a pilot working for me. I want pilots of whom I can reasonably be assured that they are going to follow the Ops Manual, the FAR's, etc. and not strike out on their own when the muse suits them. Is this an accurate yardstick? Obviously not, but it's a starting point.

Also, multiple tattoos also tell me that the person who got them enjoys pain. And don't friggin' tell me that tattoos are not painful. I don't want to hang around, associate with or hire people who enjoy pain. That a person enjoys pain tells me something about their psyche I'd rather not know, thank you. Sorry, that's just me.

Looking around, it is clear that many young people think that body art and piercings are okay. *LOTS* of young women are getting tattoos these days - the infamous "tramp stamp" that we love so much, :rolleyes: We'll see how this goes: it may be a passing fad; it may be cultural change. And, in the long run it may not matter much. Maybe tattoos don't really mean what message they send. Maybe I'm just an old-fogey who needs to get with the program and realize that body art is...just...body art and nothing more. I don't know.

Remember, this is strictly *my* personal prejudice talking, but if you come before me looking for a job, and I can see holes in your skin from ear, eyebrow, nose and/or lip piercings, and I detect you have tattoos, I'll pass you over for someone else who I (perhaps illogically) think may better conform to my operation. Knowing all this, if you still choose to get tattoos and pursue a career in aviation, all I can say to you is good luck! I hope you get a Chief Pilot who is more enlightened than me.

[Whirlygig]

tattoos are addictive. No they're not.

Cheers

Whirls

[IrishSarBoy]

But Whirls, your tats aren't on display, well they weren't when I asked you if I could see them;)

[rjsquirrel]

It is my opinion that excess in any direction, piercings, tatoos, dress, behavior, are all indicators that set off alarms when trying to decide who should be entrusted with 12 million worth of hardware. Maverick and Goose notwithstanding, we prize integrity, trustworthiness and (dammit) the ability to follow the rules we set for ourselves. I have great friends who, once proven to themselves and their peers, went on to be outlandish in some ways without harm to their careers (he's a wildman, but boy can he fly) but they popped out after they had established solid reputations.
My advice - prove yourself first, then pop out.

SASless has sound advice - in any case, the art you wear probably should not peek past the clothes that you wear, in our conservative industry.

BTW, marking your entire body with brightly colored ink is the way you chose to tell us something about yourself, otherwise you'd chose invisible ink. Like wearing a striped purple aluminum foil hat, you are going out of your way to say something. If not that you are unconventional and different, then What?

[Whirlygig]

well they weren't when I asked you if I could see themNah, that was just me writing down the datcon numbers on my arm in biro. :p

Cheers

Whirls

[dinofootball]

As I have been able to fly around Canada and the US, I have seen pilots with full sleeves, ink on their forearms, knecks, legs, etc. and they have been great people to work with and fly with as well. When it comes to hiring, as FH1100 mentioned there are a lot of older CP's who do look down upon it, with that being said, I'd rather have a few tattoos than earrings or piercings when it comes to jobs. It also depends on the type of flying you are looking to do, whether you want to be doing VIP or working in the bush. End of the day, I have met executives who have much more ink than pilots and they run companies we fly for.
It is also how you present yourself when you go to shake hands.

[Hedge36]

A significant portion of my extended family is heavily involved in the body modification scene - ink and piercings. Those whose tattoos can be covered by normal everyday dress work in a variety of jobs (corporate to non-profit management); those whose mods are only slightly visible work a variety of jobs in the San Francisco Bay area, where attitudes about such things tend to be more relaxed.

Those whose ink and jewelry are prevalent and "in your face" are unemployed or work at coffee shops and book stores.

Some of these folks made the choice to stay in the slightly-less-than-mom-would-want job fields because their lifestyles demand nothing more, and they enjoy themselves as a result. Many of them quickly found that doors were being quietly shut in their faces when they attempted to move "up" in the job world.

The attitude of "my employer shouldn't try to limit my self-expression" is admirable, and to a certain extent I support it. I myself have a variety of piercings which were highly visible at one point in my life - and then I discovered real paychecks. Out came the jewelry and there went that phase of my life.

No matter how much I love my friends with ink from head to toe, I wouldn't hire them to work in customer-facing positions in my helicopter business. Why? Because my goal is to make my customers happy and comfortable, which makes me money. I'm not so interested in changing societal norms that I'm willing to turn away potential business by forcing customers to deal with personnel whose appearances may make them uncomfortable.

It seems to me one should probably get the career going first, and then go hog-wild with the ink, not the other way around... but then again, I'm getting older and have gained a bit of hindsight :)

[Horror box]

I don't think there are many employers in our industry who will claim they will "only hire pilots covered in tattoos".

Other way round - quite probably. It might be all fine and happily accepted in one area of the world, but we are in a global society now, like it or not, and not all cultures are so keen on seeing a "painted warrior" in the front of the cab. We are not an industry than generally encourages large degrees of self-expression in our work, it tends to have certain safety implications.

[Gordy]

I have to agree with SAS:

Anything a short sleeve shirt and long trousers will not expose is fine probably.....just ask yourself if your boss would want you representing his company to clients.

and disagree with Hands on 123

but you always see pilots dressed in the "uniform" of black trousers, white shirt, gold bars etc,

I am the so-called "anti-pilot" when it comes to dress. When I flew in Hawaii, I wore shorts, aloha shirt and flew barefoot. I would often discuss with my pax (when they asked), about perceived professionalism. It mattters not what I wear but in how I carry myself and act. They were normally surprised to hear that I probably had more hours and experience than the airline pilots that flew them across the ocean.

These days I have discarded all such "pilot" identifying clothes and choose to blend with my fire crew---you will see me in nomex fire pants and shirt most days. It is actually fun listening to new ops people on a helibase trying to figure which one is the pilot.

BTW---I have a tattoo that is hidden by a short sleeve shirt---most people I work with do not even know I have one. Therefore, I would say it will not hinder you as long as you can hide it.

[SASless]

Hey Dude....like you have a job opening for a Pilot....I have a CPL and no experience but I dig flying!




http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/41599_166496223389246_7445777_n.jpg





Do you think for a second I would consider this guy for a job....of any kind?

[griffothefog]

Sas,

Cabin attendant S58T? Im sure he'd blend right in with all the leaking hydraulic fluid dripping off the ceiling...:eek:

[SASless]

Aw....Griffo....I was trying to keep it from getting personal! I remember you as being rather a clean cut young Lad....with a Mum that would have given you body piercings.....with her Knitting Needles had you shown up at home bearing a Tat.

[500e]

As a number of people say it is the impression you give to both the employer & the majority of customers that will decide if you are employed or stay employed.
You might be the best pilot, a real good all round person, but the initial impression is the one that sticks, if people don't feel comfortable you are going to loose out.
It is not just tattoos or piercings it can be dress or general demeanour, more people than jobs = choice

[Hedge36]

And teeth - don't forget the teeth.

[Bronx]

People's attitudes are slowly changing but there is still prejudice around. Could I go through all the training and then find the tattoos I have will hinder me from getting work.

An interviewer has a short time to assess you as a person. Having tattoos on display says something about you as a person. Don't be surprised if you don't get hired. Same goes for piercings, only more so.

If you want to call it prejudice, go ahead.
I don't think it is.


B.

[TreeTopFlyerUSMC]

I am in my 40s and have 8 tats, including one that is large and intricate enough that it took me a year to get it done; with that said, none of them can be seen until I remove my underwear ie when dressed for work, be it in a shirt and shorts that I wore for tours, flight suit for HEMS, shirt and trousers for govt work, etc nobody ever knew.

Tats are about self-expression, and while I disagree with some of the comments above about following rules and enjoying pain, I don't disagree that tats are looked down upon by many (including myself) when I see them on people who are obviously wearing them as an "in your face" manner. It's all about how you present yourself, as has been mentioned already, and doing something that shows that you have done this to show it off to the world instead of for your own sense of what you want your body to look like in private is NOT in keeping with ideals of professionalism, maturity or dependability.

My opinion, YMMV. :)

[AdamFrisch]

It's going to change.

I've always found that "deviants" - in my youth that was metal rockers with long hair or heavily tattooed people - normally turn out to be much more "normal" than the guy who looks like a Carphone Warehouse salesman. They're the ones who always have some deviant s**t going on, I find. Jehovas or Scientoligists or perverts. Today half the youths are tattooed (if not more) and I have to say when I see pilots with full sleeve tattoos, like I did the other day, I smile and think it's progress. Why not? Pilots are a reflection of society.

I have to take umbrage with FH1100's comments. I can accept that you would think twice about hiring someone with tattoos, that's your prerogative, but to say that if found out after that fact that would warrant his firing or ostracising, is quite frankly much more deviant than any tattoo would ever be.

[dinofootball]

I forgot to add something to this topic.

If a pilot walks into a hanger looking to get a job and has tattoos, but is a clean cut individual, they will have a better chance of getting a job than a pilot who doesnt have tattoos and is looking in rough shape

[Matari]

Tattoos, very rebellious in a conformist kind of way.

[Whirlygig]

Matari, can you tell me how I can be conformist in a rebellious sort of way? 'Cos that's me :ok:

Cheers

Whirls

[Hedge36]

sSY0nCuRhHA

Rebellious conformity.




PS4hLStTIsw

[FH1100 Pilot]

AdamFrisch:I have to take umbrage with FH1100's comments. I can accept that you would think twice about hiring someone with tattoos, that's your prerogative, but to say that if found out after that fact that would warrant his firing or ostracising, is quite frankly much more deviant than any tattoo would ever be.

Well Adam, I never said I'd ostracize the freak, just fire him. Gone in 60 seconds. Or less. So take all the umbrage you want. Think it is deviant all you want. Too bad. We all make our choices. People who CHOOSE to "express" themselves with tattoos have to realize that there are consequences (although I admit that might change - but I wouldn't want to gamble my career on it). If you're not man enough to show your tattoos during the interview, then don't complain when something happens when you're found out afterward. Life is tough, deal with it. Getting fired from some cheezy, prejudiced helicopter company is not the worst thing in the world.

[griffothefog]

"And if I were a Chief Pilot and you came to me for a job and I saw your tattoos, I'd pick someone else. If I discovered them after the fact (like if you were successful at hiding them from me in the interview and got hired), I'd get rid of you at the FIRST opportunity. Gone. Why?"

FH1100,

Wow, you must have attended that middle management course....:ok:

Outstanding CP quality shining through :E

[John Eacott]

On what grounds? He'd sue your ass. And he'd win.
If you let him go because it's 'at will' employment and then you hired someone else, you'd get nailed for wrongful termination.

I would have thought that labour laws in the USA may be a little easier than our (Oz) laws, UL! Nonetheless, I would be a bit concerned about company image with ostentatious tats were I to have to use the pilot flying clients for whom they would be 'not welcome'.

A probationary period usually sorts out that sort of problem anyway, without the inevitable visit to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal and the $5k payoff :rolleyes:

[Vertical Freedom]

Hmmmm interestig thread. Some companies want uniforms, huh as if that makes a Pilot? I have seen highly skilled grand master Pilot's dress like slobs but the skilled production of their flying ability was exemplary, And I've seen uniformed hmm (pilot's) struggle to simple put down the machine with a 5 knot tail-wind. Tattoo's like uniforms do not make or break the Pilot. If I were interviewing I would take the check-ride more into consideration than his/her appearance. Yes appearances are nice & gooey on initial contact but just like beauty is skin deep & a stunning blond may be the most boring pain in the a... to live with & an average looker, fun, positive & just great to be with. The proof in this pudding is the Pilot's ability, airmanship, safety & commercial maturity rather than a neat n' clean neck tied geek with 12lbs of gold on each shoulder who only knows where the wind is & how strong it is when he/she is actually passing it.....:{ :ugh: :p := :D :ooh: :eek: :yuk: :ok: :\ :8 :oh: :uhoh: ;) :E
this thread is about judging people at skin deep level, we humans go far deeper than just that & what & who we really are is deep below the surface of the skin/clothing level. Don't judge a book by its cover. I have never encountered any knock back based on my looks, clothes or all that shallow ****e, I got where I wanted to go by excelling at what I am capable of doing, committing to learning & doing my best, doing it safely & doing is consistently.

[welsh_Gareth]

To me it's simple. Which is most important to you? The tattoos or a flying job. I'm not saying that the tattoos will stop you getting any future flying job, but is it worth the risk?

[Epiphany]

this thread is about judging people at skin deep level,

Exactly VF - and that is just what a customer does when he/she sees the pilot that will be flying them/their family/colleagues/associates. They have nothing else to judge the pilot on.

If I saw a tattooed, unshaven, shabbily dressed pilot there is no way I or anyone close to me would be getting in the machine.

This is what CP's have to consider.

[EN48]

tattoos say, look how nonconformist and daring I am...


And, IMHO, raise questions re judgment and maturity. Tattoos , body piercing, and earrings (on men) are the kind of "adornment" one expects to find among adolescents and certain pro athletes and entertainment types who for some strange reason find it necessary to exhibit a "look how nonconformist and daring I am" attitude to the world. May work in some circles but certainly not the norm in aviation. If one feels compelled to display one's "uniqueness," why not do it in a way that will be easily reversible when the day inevitably comes when one asks "What was I thinking!?"

[SASless]

Life is hard.....it is really hard when you are stupid!

Sgt. Stryker in "The Sands of Iwo Jima"....played by John Wayne as I recall.

Does that not apply here folks?

Why is it a surprise to anyone that others judge them by different rules than they themself use? Always has been....and always shall be that way.

You want to fit in amongst a group of people...then mimic the way the act, think, dress, and embrace the philosophy of the group. If you don't....and you don't get accepted....then whose fault is that?

If in time the "accepted norms" change and thus embrace you....fine....until then look somewhere else that will accept you.

That is life....deal with it.

[996]

I drive a car that has no branding decals or badges on, I drive a helicopter that also - coincidentaly - has no branding or major identifying decals/paintwork, I refuse to buy any form of clothing that carries a logo of any type. Why would I do otherwise. I do not need to advertise anything. So why the F"£$%^ would I brand my body????:ugh::ugh: If you are so desperate to identify yourself then I suggest you realy need to consider your insecurities.

[krypton_john]

UL paints a picture:

"I've seen a line of girls in a bar/restaurant, each one of them with teased hair, tweezed brows, glitter cleavage, crop top, navel piercing, tramp stamp, low-rise jeans, the lifting handles of thong underwear in plain view and 4" heels.
It's as if they've all come off an assembly line and through the same paint booth. It's like Chip Foose did all their design work."

UL, please post the name and location of this fabled wonderland!

[500e]

Don't bother KJ only 4 inch heels:E

[toptobottom]

And teeth - don't forget the teeth

You can tats on your teeth?! Kewl!!

If I was looking for any individual to represent my business to an audience of new public faces, I would definitely find excuses not to hire the individual with visible tats (no quips about invisible tats, please :}). If you're fire-fighting in Canada, who cares? However, if you're ferrying fare paying pax then it's all about appearing to be professional in an orthodox sense i.e. conservative and compliant.

I'd love to have green hair (actually, I'd love to have hair of any colour), but I know my prospective clients would run a mile; like it or not, that's the way it is.

As someone said earlier, get a track record then make the decision to get a tattoo or not, because by that time, you may have outgrown your desire to have one anyway :ok:

[krypton_john]

500e, dunno how tall you are but in my case heels > 4" are likely to place runway above MSA.

[SASless]

I refuse to wear spike heels....they put holes in the waterbed!:oh:

[EN48]

I refuse to wear spike heels....


What about a thong? This is something I really dont want to think about!

[Vertical Freedom]

Arw jest go nude & be done with it with 4 gold bars on willie :eek: if I stay sittin' down they wont say the tatts on me arse :p

[Peter-RB]

At one time, Tats were normally the symbol of a Matelot, or Soldier with them normally being a Swallow on the top of the hand, or a big red heart with some girls name or Mum& Dad, they really weren't obtrusive, but as time has passed it seems all the nasty habits if the Sado/recreational druggys have had one thing in common, stick Iron bits in places that will constantly be a reminder to the rest of the untarnished population that that this person is a weirdo, I have employed office staff and Heavy Good vehicle drivers for the last 40 years, at any type of interview I always looked for signs, and even if I couldn't see anything I made them aware that things like that would not make me a happy bunny, at one interview a young lady appeared in a nice demure suit with a high buttoned blouse, but I even gave her the talk, imagine my supprise when three weeks later she turned up to work in the depths of winter to reveal a cleavage with a tattoed hand comming out of it and a bare midriff with allsorts of suggestive things pointing to her more personal regions, most of my drivers worked with me for 18+ years and longer, but this particular young lady lasted all of 3.5 weeks.:(

Call me old fashioned, and a bit of a stickler, but work is for work, not small talk like " where does that go too" with some silly female actually wanting to show off parts we normally dont see.:=

Peter R-B

[4015]

Tattoos, 4 inch heels, waterbeds... This thread is starting to sound like a music video for a hip-hop or a mid-American post-pubescent sleaze-rock band.

I think there are different areas with tattoos. If you were to get a couple of tattoos which are hidden in normal work dress, aren't substantial in size, and have stories which mean something to you, then why shouldn't you do it? The squirrel story mentioned already in this thread is a good example.

If however, you are just getting sleeves or half sleeves, with the same standard often repeated images (tribal bands, skulls, mis-spelt italic writing proclaiming "live fast, dye young" et al) that you chose from a board in a parlour... then you're probably not looking at the right business.

Whilst you may think that your tattoos are just showing your individuality or that you just like the look of them, don't be surprised when the chief pilot, who is from another not so enlightened generation, doesn't take too kindly to the tattoo you chose because your mates had one.

Just my take on the situation.

4015

[Pandalet]

I refuse to wear spike heels....they put holes in the waterbed!:oh:

Psch, you don't have the calves for heels. Stop scaring the children!

[industry insider]

There was a guy in Australia who had a dispute with his tattoo artist. Instead of a surf design on his back, when he looked in the mirror, he had a 16" penis tattooed on his back. The artist was charged with assault apparently.

[FH1100 Pilot]

I'll probably get banned permanently for this...


Yes: I'll certainly give it some thought :rolleyes: ;)

We've pushed this tangent far enough, don't you think?

SP

[heliduck]

If I discovered them after the fact (like if you were successful at hiding them from me in the interview and got hired), I'd get rid of you at the FIRST opportunity. Gone. Why?


FH1100, I agree & disagree with you.

Where I diasagree - From your example quoted above lets assume the pilot you employed had tattoos which you never discovered until years later. By this time he/she had become your top line pilot, your biggest customer loved him/her & would only fly if you or this pilot were available. Not an unfamiliar scenario as I have been in that situation many times before. On discovery of the tattoo do you still fire them?

Where I agree - There are 3 types of people, those who display tattoos, those who have them but don't display them & those who don't have them. Of the people who get tattoos there are -

Those who get them in inconspicuous places where those who are not intimate with them will rarely if ever see. These people get the tattoos for their own phsycological benefit, i.e. a reminder of an important life event, group or loved one. These people want a permanent reminder of this for their own benefit, not the publics & if asked about it will nearly always be able to explain a clear mental process & significant sentimental value.
Those who get them in conspicuos places where the general public will be guaranteed of seeing them even when dressed in clothing which is not revealing. I believe these people get tattoos in order to influence the opinion people form of them based on visual accuity, in effect influncing the outcome of the meeting by distracting the other person with plumage. These are generally the people who get tribal art, skulls with flames, miscellaneous sayings in Chinese or Japanese lettering etc, & when asked what it means they usually respond " I don't know, nothing really".


I agree with you as I don't believe that the person who displays tattoos as plumage for all to see has the phsycological traits I am looking for in a person who controls the lives of my clients & financial viability of my business. However those who choose to keep their association with tattoos private can't influence my decision either way as I never see them; as far as I am concerned they don't have tattoos.
The end result is there are only 2 types of people, those who display tattoos & those who don't have them.

[tony 1969]

Heliduck,
That is the most sensible thing I have read since this thread started.

To the original poster get your sleeve done if you want (just bear in mind it may mean you have to wear long sleeved clothing whilst at work)

[Rigidhead]

To add to Heliduck's thoughts, if I may?
My dad, a child of the Great Depression and WWII, I think put it best when
a bunch of us were discussing this subject. The difference between doing
something for yourself vs. doing something "in your face" was summed up nicely with: " If you are going to do something just to get a reaction from someone else, you would have to be a GD idiot to be surprised if it was a negative one."

Rigid

[Gordy]

Gordy - if I remember rightly there may be a tattoo floating around somewhere of one "lady" that the present "lady" might not approve of........that is, if a helicopter could get jealous....

Ha....You know me too well.... Nah.."LaFawnduh" has seen the 500 tattoo and is "OK" with it as long as she is still "A # one"...

[FH1100 Pilot]

Heliduck, in my experience there is a third type of person who wears tattoos: One who has numerous, expansive ones, but keeps them under wraps because he knows they are socially unacceptable. Trust me, the complex psychological issues such people have are troubling to people like me. Please don't even try to tell me you got that huge, hideous tattoo on the back of your shoulder because you like looking at it. Oh? In the mirror? Because that's the only way you could possibly see it. Or...is it that such a person wants only *some* people to see their tattoos...just not their Chief Pilot, perhaps? Why not? Ohhhh, because big tattoos tell the world, "He's a rebel!" And rebels (with or without causes) might make great subjects for cheesy movies, but they make lousy helicopter pilots.

I have a young pilot friend; I knew he had two small tattoos (one on each arm) but didn't know the half of it- literally - until we went to the beach recently and I saw him in a bathing suit. And I saw the other big tattoos on his body as well as the starburst around his navel. I was, like, WTF? And I've known this guy for a couple/three years. And you know what? It colors my opinion of him now. I understand why he has an anti-authority streak a *MILE* wide. Or maybe I don't understand it - maybe it merely explains it. I predict for this young pilot a long career in the utility field, as he will never make it in mainstream aviation. And not because of his tats, but they are a good "pointer" of his other issues.

As for your scenario of a pilot who keeps his tattoos hidden for "years," yeah I'd probably still find a way to get rid of him (he says with a "that's life" shrug). But I have feeling that this would not happen. I suspect that such a pilot would probably exhibit anti-authority, anti-social, or other such undesireable tendencies that would make me want to get rid of him long before that. Are you the exception to that rule? Good for you.

Having said all that, let me repeat: I personally don't like tattoos. I understand the single, meaningful tattoo that many people get on the forearm or wherever. I do not like the multiple, big, colorful, expansive ones- the ones that become body art. While they are (sometimes) interesting to look at, what they say about the owner's psyche is disturbing. I wouldn't want such a person as a pilot of mine. Simple as that. But my generation is dying off. Maybe our successors won't be so antediluvian and didactic and narrow-minded. In the meantime...

Bottom line: aviation is not currently tattoo-friendly. Display them at your own risk. Heyyyy, didn't SASless say that very thing, what, 20 posts ago?

[griffothefog]

SASless MUST have tatoos because I knew him when he was 20 something and he was definitely nuts AND had a rebel attitude :E

[SASless]

Griffo you evil fellow....always starting trouble just as I remember you from the past.

Two out of three ain't bad.....just no Tattoo yet!

Government certified as being "Nuts".....and was born a Rebel (Southern Heritage Ya'll remember)!

That just may change.....if you recall our former Secretary of State George Schultz, who had been a US Marine Officer in his younger days....bears a very cute Pink Bunny Rabbit tat on his hind end as I have been told.

I am of the opinion that if old George, the epitome of a Gentleman, can have a bunny rabbit then perhaps old SAS can as well.

Key point.....in keeping with my original advice to the fellow inquiring about Tat's and the Helicopter Industry....as I have mellowed quite a bit in my old age....mine shall not be seen as often as it would have been, had I had one then, when we worked together!

[Gordy]

FH1100 Pilot:

I have a young pilot friend;

Who has a bigger tattoo than I thought he did......

And I've known this guy for a couple/three years. And you know what? It colors my opinion of him now.

Kind of shallow don't ya think???? And I always thought size did not matter.. :cool:

I'd probably still find a way to get rid of him

what they say about the owner's psyche is disturbingAll because he has a tattoo.. really?

I predict for this young pilot a long career in the utility field, as he will never make it in mainstream aviation.

There are many of us here who make a damn fine living in the utility field---and I never considered it to not be "mainstream aviation".

[Gomer Pylot]

As a command sergeant-major in the 101st Airborne Division, who had jumped into Normandy on D-Day, once said, about 30 years later - "Just as soon as I get old enough, I'm going to grow me a mustache and get me a tattoo". That's pretty much my attitude. What others do is entirely up to them.

[SASless]

There are many of us here who make a damn fine living in the utility field---and I never considered it to not be "mainstream aviation".


Sounds like a contradiction there Gordy.....it just doesn't seem to have the "Ring" I would have imagined that damn fine living would seem to be able to produce.:E

[heliduck]

There are many of us here who make a damn fine living in the utility field---and I never considered it to not be "mainstream aviation".

Gordy has hit the nail on the head & maybe that's the answer right there - It should be a pre-requisite for utility pilots to have tattoos!


FH1100 - I understand where you're coming from with expansive body art & if you don't like it then it's your right not to put up with it, I suppose I'm just a little more forgiving of people who have discrete tattoos. I don't judge people for having tattoos, but I do judge them based on what that tattoo is so we both have our criteria.
Although my first impression of a person would be altered on seeing a tattoo, if I had known them for years as a competent pilot then found out they had a tattoo I would consider that to be a learning process on my criteria for judging people rather than a cut & dried case of "now I have to fire him".

[P6 Driver]

For me, tattoos come into one of two categories - hidden by "work" clothing, or exposed to the world.

In my line of work, I interview people most days, many of whom express themselves by having tats on their face, neck, hands, e.t.c. I see many people in their 20's and 30's who state that they wish they hadn't had certain visible artwork done on them, and realised too late (like it's rocket science) that they are not easy to erase.

In applying for any employment, an individual must weigh up whether they will fit the company profile and in the same way that some people rack up driving penalty points and don't bat an eye over them, can find that some employers just don't like people with ten points on their licence for speeding offences.

If the most perfect and competent pilot on this planet applied for a job flying for the company that has the contract to fly the Royal Family, I'd be more than surprised if he/she got the job where the Queen sat behind them looking at the kids birth dates tattooed on the side of her pilots neck.

Life is sometimes about choices and consequences. I just wish occasionally that some of the people I interview who have made their life changing tattoo choices didn't bitch to me about how the world is against them for doing it. Surprisingly, I don't choose to have tattoos. ;)

[rotorcrafty]

Wow I really stirred up the Hornets nest with this one didn't I?

Thanks for all your replies guys, It's been very interesting and informative reading and certainly helped me in my decision. :ok:

I think for now I'm going to put that plan on the back burner and concentrate on starting on my training and getting a foothold in the industry.

But before I sign off let me give my opinion on some of the issues discussed here.

The overriding theme throughout this thread seems to be that many people (and I'm guessing probably no one with a tat) see them as a form of rebellion. Anyone that gets a tat to show how 'rebellious' they are is a fool. I think the only way you can truly rebel against society these days is be be like those idiots who smashed up London Monday last week (including my home town). It doesn't mean you don't 'follow the rules' and so make you an unsafe pilot. When and if (hope upon hope) I become a pilot I won't want to be anything other than an exemplary pilot, obviously to further my career but also so I'm safe. Never mind the precious cargo I may be carrying why would I want to put my own life at risk? I don't want to die until I'm an old man, too old to fly (with my 35 year old supermodel wife weeping at my grave :E).

It is becoming far from non-conformist these days, I know one girl with a number of visible tatts who had a good job with the Disney channel, another I work with now who is a trainee legal counsel. Admittedly hers is small but that is on a permanently visible spot on her wrist. None of these girls are 'on the edge of society'. There are plenty of people with tats who are alternative but there are also plenty who are 'normal' (for want of a better phrase).

People who get them enjoy pain! Please! Biggest myth going. I've heard people claim they've met people who enjoy the pain but I've never met one. I certainly didn't and I don't know anyone who does.

Many people decide to have one for the simple reason that they like the work of the particular artist and some genuine artists with incredible skill have sprang up over the last 10 years. Most people aren't trying to say anything they just want to carry something the they consider beautiful.

Just because you carry a tat doesn't mean you are scruffy, messy hair, unshaven etc as I read on one reply. Quite the opposite these days, I take great pride in my appearance. I'm fit, healthy and always presentable (I hope :)) a lot more so than some people I see without tats. And again so are many people I know the with tats, some actually very stylish.

Some people carry tats in an 'in your face manor' some don't, I'm one of the ones that doesn't, the ones that do - get them for all the wrong reasons. When I started this thread I wasn't for one minute considering these kinds of people. Of course if you're covered in tats or have them on your neck or face you wouldn't get a job but that's applicable in many industries. Whether it's right or wrong who knows, I have my own opinion on that but I'm not going to go into that now. What I was referring to is the kind of tat you can easily cover, such as the one I have now and any others I may have in the future. It is large piece and so would be the others, but they are/would be concealable.

Right I'm starting to bore even myself now, so I'm going to wrap it up.

So for now I'll wait until I have my next one done, I've always wanted to fly (and hopefully I will) and I've wanted particular tats for a long time. That's just who I am and I never think you should be afraid to be who you are. But for the moment I shouldn't make things harder for me (it's going to be hard enough anyway).

Thanks guys see ya'll on another thread sometime.

[helimutt]

If you have tattoos you have complex psychological issues? Oh please give me a break. Life is too short. So you're honestly saying if you'd employed a guy for 10 years, all of your customers liked flying with him, he was a model pilot, never had an incident, turned up on time every single day as necessary, then you see he has a tattoo, you think he has issues? To be honest, i'd wonder about the ridiculousness of someone who had those sort of views in this day and age. Times have changed old man! Get with the program. I have a tattoo, has it stopped me getting a job? Never. Do I have questionable mental issues? Then again, I see your point! Carry on! ;)

[Aucky]

if I had known them for years as a competent pilot then found out they had a tattoo I would consider that to be a learning process on my criteria for judging people rather than a cut & dried case of "now I have to fire him" I've been waiting for someone to say something sensible... :hmm:

Obviously visible tattoo's are going to have an impact on whether you are seen as suitable for a company/role/position, and one must accept the consequences. I disagree whole heartedly that the 'type' to get a tattoo will not have the qualities of a good/safe pilot. What rubbish. The problem is categorising people into 'types' at all, very lazy and narrow minded but also inevitable, so if you decided to get a tat on your face or hands and thought that it wouldn't affect your employability for a role such as being a pilot, then chances are your not cut out for the job. Of course first impressions count but i don't see the problem if it's coverable in the work environment and therefore not a part of your first/continuing impression whether at interview or on the job.

I think it's a shame that in an industry where your work life has little room for creativity that people are apparently discriminated against for being creative in other ways that are hidden in the work environment (whether you feel that tattoos are creative or not is another issue, but people who have them likely do...).

Possibly being in a younger generation I personally think tattoos can be incredibly interesting, often beautiful, and often shockingly appalling, and know many people with good examples of each... If I look at all of my acquaintances across the board some of them would not make good pilots thats for sure, and others definitely could given the opportunity but this bears no correlation to whether they have tattoos or not (with the exception of those with tats designed for the shock factor). Excuse me for stereotyping here, but to whoever saidI have employed office staff and Heavy Good vehicle drivers for the last 40 years, at any type of interview I always looked for signs, and even if I couldn't see anything I made them aware that things like that would not make me a happy bunny, at one interview a young lady appeared in a nice demure suit with a high buttoned blouse, but I even gave her the talk, imagine my supprise when three weeks later she turned up to work in the depths of winter to reveal a cleavage with a tattoed hand comming out of it and a bare midriff with allsorts of suggestive things pointing to her more personal regions, most of my drivers worked with me for 18+ years and longer, but this particular young lady lasted all of 3.5 weeks. I thought tattoos were a requisite for HGV drivers? I do agree that tat sounds delightfully awful. What was different about her performance over the first 3 weeks? Was your judge of character at interview really that off?

To those who say they are awful, tacky, rebellious, except your friend ____ who is the exception and has one for a good reason, have you considered that perhaps it's the fact that they are your friend and you know them well enough to know that the stereotype is often way off? example...

Friend of mine, after testicular cancer, got a little squirrel running up one leg and a little squirrel with a nut running down the other. That made some kinda sense. Whilst being sensitive to your friends situation why does this mean that he needed to get a tattoo about it? perhaps he just wanted one and felt that he needed justification when people ask why so that was the one he chose.... obviously has a sense of humour.

Times will change, more than 1 in 3 young people have tattoos now and as generations change obviously so will attitudes. If I were chief pilot would I hire someone with a tattoo on their neck/face? likely not if they are in a VIP or customer facing role. On their hands/lower forearm? again it would depend on the role. Somewhere hidden? sure if they seemed to have the desired attributes for the job... why not?

Anyway enough on this, you may well disagree but i believe that if you honestly think that by having a tattoo you are a rebel, non conformist, sadist, or have intrinsically poor judgement and safety standards, then you need to get out more. Perhaps true amongst the early tattoo adopters, but far from the truth today, in fact amongst my friends I feel slightly non-conformist by not having one.

A very good friend of mine (house mate) is a tattoo artist so I have been exposed to the tattoo life for some time, and know of the wide spectrum of clients, their stories and their characters. I can tell you that as a career his day rate is equal to that of an experienced pilot, and he has a 3 month waiting list and offers for work that take him all over the world. if only i could draw.... :} 'brits abroad' certainly do tats no favours, skulls, union jacks, bull dogs etc... but if you actually look below the surface of it all some can be incredibly interesting and beautiful to those who enjoy visual art. Is it art? you decide but I think my friend makes more money and gains more respect from his peers that any traditional artists I know, and he's leaving an extensive legacy behind.

[gileraguy]

from the Urban Dictionary:

"...there have been sociological studies done by the American Psychological Association, Federal Bureau of Prisons, and other demographic researchers showing strong correlative evidence associating tattoos with high risk behavior, illegal substance abuse and sexual promiscuity. These risk factors are greatest in the age range which these types of tattoos are gaining main stream popularity..."

this comment was made specifically in regard to "Tramp Stamps", but may have some aspect relevant to the discussion here.

and I'm a "cleanskin"

[toptobottom]

...the American Psychological Association, Federal Bureau of Prisons, and other demographic researchers...

That's a coincidence. When I watched Louis Theroux's TV programme on 'lifers' recently, the inmates all wore large tattoos. I suspect the communities these researchers have sampled, may not be representative of all tattoo owners!!

[rjsquirrel]

"Significantly more forensic psychiatric inpatients with tattoos had a diagnosis of anti-social personality disorder (ASPD) compared to patients without tattoos. Patients with ASPD also had a significantly greater number of tattoos, a trend toward having a greater percentage of their total body surface area tattooed, and were more likely to have a history of substance abuse than patients without ASPD. Tattooed subjects, with or without ASPD, were significantly more likely to have histories of substance abuse, sexual abuse and suicide attempts than non-tattooed patients......
Forensic psychiatric inpatients with tattoos should be assessed carefully for the presence of antisocial personality disorder as well as for substance abuse, sexual abuse and suicide attempts..."http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/60449/1/43_ftp.pdf (http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/60449/1/43_ftp.pdf)

and

"Tattooing no longer carries a negative social message. To investigate stigma related to employment, undergraduates rated how likely they would be to hire a young woman photographed with or without a butterfly tattoo for a front or back office job. Tattooed candidates were rated as less likely to be hired."
-"Perceived Stigma of Tattoos in Hiring Decisions"- Fiorilli

[helispeediii]

right or wrong its hard enough to get into rotary,youd have to be bonkers to turn up with highly viz graffiti on show,then convince an employer they need you ,:ugh: let alone holes all over your face that you fill up for fri night out , helispeediii

[griffothefog]

Some sensible and some alarming reactions, but good reading nonetheless :ok:

I have a tattoo and its beautiful, the work of a very talented Hungarian artist,
and I will never regret having it done. It represents something special to me and I am the only male (save him) to have ever seen it. It shall remain that way until they put the tag on my big toe :{

I got it very late on, and with 10,500+ hours and an unblemished career to date, I have managed to go through life without offending many people or showing alarming tendencies of the scary guy nature :p

Some of the comments on this thread have however stirred up my desire to get a big raspberry tattooed on my arse so I can wave it at a few people :E

To the poster, good luck with your career and if you ever question or doubt the sanity of yourself or your bodywork AFTER you've made it in helicopters, take a long slow look around you..... There are many strange characters lurking under them gold bars and white shirts, just check the divorce registry :ok:

[SASless]

Some of the comments on this thread have however stirred up my desire to get a big raspberry tattooed on my arse so I can wave it at a few people

I would suggest it not be your Boss Fellah until which time you are ready to travel to exotic places and meet other interesting people.

One Tat, a desire for more....and an announced anti-social attitude.....that's my Griffo in his best form!:D:)